Tiffany Shlain New_mixdown.mp3-from OneDrive

Tiffany: [00:00:00] Listening to something, talking to someone, getting feedback like we never give our brain this what I think is the most magical space for the brain, which is to daydream and to just think on its own. And as a creative filmmaker, I'm always trying to think of the best environment to let my mind think.

Harpreet: [00:00:29] What's up, everybody? Welcome to the artists Data Science podcast, the only self development podcast for Data scientists. You're going to learn from and be inspired by the people, ideas and conversations that'll encourage creativity and innovation in yourself so that you can do the same for others. I also host open office hours. You can register to attend by going to bitly.com/adsoh I look forward to seeing you all there. Let's ride this beat out into another awesome episode and don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Our guest today is an Emmy nominated filmmaker, speaker and founder of the Webby Awards. She's described as an Internet pioneer and has lectured worldwide on the relationship between technology and humanity. She's received over 80 awards and distinctions for her films and work, including selection for the Albert Einstein Foundation's initiative, Genius One Hundred Visions for the Future. And she's also been included on NPR's list of best commencement speakers. So please help me in welcoming our guest today, a woman recognized by Newsweek as one of the women shaping the twenty first century, [00:02:00] Tiffany Shlain.

Tiffany: [00:02:02] Tiffany, I'm blushing. I'm blushing.

Harpreet: [00:02:08] It's my absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come on. I remember reaching out to LinkedIn. I like, oh my God, your book is everything. And I literally meant that. It nicely summarizes and encapsulates everything that I've been really interested in over the last two years and a lot of the concepts that have helped shape my belief system and worldview. So in that sense, your book covers everything that I'm into and I can't wait to to dig into it and talk more about it. You know, one thing that I've noticed in every single one of your pictures is this really distinctive style that you've got. You know, you've always had this awesome hat and this beautiful, bright red lipstick. And I thought that it was cool that you talked about this Origin story in your book. I think that's a story that I think the audience will enjoy hearing. Would you mind sharing that with us?

Tiffany: [00:03:00] Sure. I first of all, it's great to be on your show. I loved the name of your podcast. I think it's so smart because I think artists are everywhere and it's just a way to approach life. And so the story of my hat and lipstick. So those of you that are just listening, I have blond hair and blue eyes and I just feel like that look is thought of in a certain way. And whenever I've always wanted a hat, I'm wearing one right now. And it really started with my grandfather, who was this very colorful and influential person of my life, and he always wore a hat. And when he passed away, I was given his hat and I put it on whenever I feel like showtime. And I like the gender norm breaking in that as well. I often wear a fedora and then my red lipstick, which I always wear, was I have very big lips. And when I was younger, I used to be teased for them and my grandmother on my other side was like, you got to put Chanel red lipstick [00:04:00] on and people pay attention to what you're saying. And I think I'd never take it off. So I've been wearing red lipstick and most of my life I really like even when we did this interview, I didn't think it was going to be audio video. So I'm not going to admit it was his idea. I'm like, OK, I got my lipstick on it. It's very funny,

Harpreet: [00:04:19] But absolutely love that story. I thought it was such a cool origin story and they had love to just kind of get into your book and start off, I guess, first with this, the concept of the Shabat, which I guess is another cultural tradition that was also handed to me from my grandparents. So it had a high level. What is the Shabat? And can you give us like a brief history of this tradition?

Tiffany: [00:04:41] Yeah. So Shabat is actually the fourth commandment. If you are a religious person, which I have not, which was very exciting for me to discover from a non-religious lens. But really, you know, it's the fourth commandment, take a complete day of rest and Jews follow this, Christians follow this. But really today, in the twenty first century, only if you're really extremely religious do you follow it to a tee and take a full day of rest. And I'm a cultural Jew, which, you know what Shabbat has turned into, at least in America for most of the Jews and I know is a nice Friday night dinner occasionally. And you light candles and you say a blessing, but it's really been reduced to that. And I say reduced. It's an incredible, beautiful meal. But the rest part, I think went away. And I think in modern society, reste has really gone away on a bigger level. So for my family, eleven years ago we just had our 11 year anniversary. We turn off all screens from Friday night to Saturday night for what we call our tech Shabbat, and it means no screens for a day. And it's been so transformative. And I love technology. I founded the website. My husband teaches robotics. We're very into it, but not all the time. And I felt like our world was just being overtaken with screens and distracted by screens. Then I [00:06:00] just never felt like there was a moment where the screens were not interrupting me really and interrupting whatever I was doing. And so it's been very transformative. And I have a my husband and I have almost eighteen year old and almost twelve year old daughter, and it's just simply been the best parenting thing I've ever done. But really just. Personally, it's just been the benefits just continue to multiply,

Harpreet: [00:06:24] And I'm definitely really excited to get to the benefits of this, which, you know, your book goes into great detail. You have got twenty four, six. It's a really good book. I see. I've got my tags.

Tiffany: [00:06:35] I love seeing the tag.

Harpreet: [00:06:36] But it's interesting because I guess the ancients would have a lot to say about this effect of this taking a break and taking a day of rest and what this does to our creativity. So what did the ancients have to say about this?

Tiffany: [00:06:52] Well, it's really interesting because the deeper I went on reading about just the concept of rest and silence and presence is, first of all, every wisdom practice from every culture has some wisdom teaching about the importance to still and quiet the noise. And because I mean what I now understand, it's only when you quiet all the input that you really hear what you're thinking. You really tap into some larger connection when you can quiet the noise. And right now, our lives are very noisy through the screens and I mean the texts and the bings and the bungs. But I think that the wisdom around the day of rest is that you need to separate work and rest. And the interesting thing about technology is that it blurred every boundary. You could work from the beach, you could work from your bedroom, you could work from anywhere, which, of course, you know, has had its benefits. But I think a lot of people are saying, you know, it's not good to work from the beach and maybe your bedroom should really be sleeping and not be checking your phone for cables when you're just about to go to bed. And and especially with the pandemic, it's just blurred every boundary. [00:08:00] That what I think is that some boundaries are good and really in some ways, the way that I'm living my life, the reason I called the book Twenty four six is because for six days I'm on, I'm available. I love being connected to the world. I'm working on this and that. And one day I'm not.

Tiffany: [00:08:17] And one day I have this beautiful boundary that says this is day is not about the whole world. It's not about everyone being able to get in touch with me. It's not about me being able to get access to everything. It's really about being present where I am. And it's really ultimately a time management strategy. It's kind of saying I'm going to put most of my joy into one day and I kind of rest joy and things that bring me pleasure onto this one day. And I save things for my Shabat, which is what I call it, and I don't work that day. And not only that, but I think differently on that day. And ironically, I have my best creative ideas on my day off of technology, which so in some ways it applies to work. But I feel like I feel so reset with one day off, recharge, reset, rejuvenated, I last more sleep better and it just ripples out through the whole week. So, so many benefits. That's why eventually after like eight years of doing it, I'm like, I got to write a book about this. I mean, it's this very ancient technology. And, you know, in America, I remember when meditation and yoga really became this big craze, and it was from another culture, ancient wisdom, that we were kind of bringing into modern society. And I feel that way with Shabat, like, here's this ancient wisdom and everyone can really benefit from it. And it's not it's just a brilliant idea. It's a brilliant way to live that.

Harpreet: [00:09:34] I absolutely love that take an ancient concept, bringing it into the modern day. And you go into great detail in your book about how you and your family celebrate the text about that one day off, everything's completely screen free. And I absolutely enjoyed that and will definitely be using it as a framework for my family. We've got a 10 month old son now, and I think he's he's got a personality for sure. But yeah, [00:10:00] I can definitely want to start taking some of that into our family and our tradition. So you wrote this book well before the pandemic, before we were all living virtually. And what would you say are two of the biggest pushback you've gotten from people about taking a tech Shabat taking that one day off, completely disconnected? And how do you respond to that?

Tiffany: [00:10:23] Yeah, I mean, they to before the pandemic, those of people like, well, what do people need to reach, man? I mean, it's interesting. We do have a landline if people really need to reach us. But the truth is an 11 years like how many times is that phone really wrong? Because it was an emergency. Like none. I think we think that we couldn't live. We did live without a cell phone and we were just fine. And there's other ways to communicate. But, you know, during the pandemic, I get that a lot of people have been really lonely. And one of the things you definitely don't have, I don't detect about myself. I mean, I do it with my family. I have a lot of people that have read the book that it was their friends or a tech free walk, or some people say, well, my community connection is online on a zoom. And I will still say, you know, do your family dinner with the people that don't live near you on Zoome as the last thing you do before you turn off the screens on the first thing you do when you go back online. But there's so much value in just being a little more. No word and not using every second to entertain your brain or distract yourself or numb yourself or stress yourself out from the news, that I think the problem is it's become such a habit to just flip our phone, turn on a screen and just really let something else direct all of your thoughts. And it's really good to be comfortable with being with yourself and knowing what it's like to just be present for what you're experiencing, not have Fumo not wish you were with other people at other places or, you know, really just kind of think about your own home, the things to be grateful for, the things to appreciate that are right in front of you, because all of these devices are designed to make you not want to take [00:12:00] your face away from the screen and to want to click more and want the next email and want the next notification.

Tiffany: [00:12:05] I mean, it's thousands of Data scientists actually who their job was like, how do we keep them on longer? And I think there's a lot of amazing data scientists that are not focused on that. But there are some very talented Data scientists who were hired by the tech companies to figure that out. And they did. And how can you fight against that kind of design that is luring you into to keep you? So I think it takes great courage and to do this practice. But then it becomes like the best thing in your life and the best day of your life. And the thing I look the most forward to is my SATs. So I think it's really interesting on how it's a it's a positioning, really, of how do you want to spend your time. And, yes, we're all connected in the world all the time. But can you create space where you're not for one day and get into that again with your family? I mean, really, you have a 10 month old child. We started this when our second child was just born. And it's, like you said, baked right into the day and it's Family Day. And it's not a day about other people and other you know, it's really a day for us to be with each other.

Harpreet: [00:13:10] And I love how you framed rest as a technology in the book. I really, really enjoy that. And one of the big reasons I absolutely wanted to get you on the podcast was just for that, because there are a good chunk of my audience are the data scientists that are working on these algorithms to keep us hooked to these devices and these screens. And I think it's important for them to to hear the message in your book and hear about some of the science behind why it's good for us to to disconnect. So. I guess why is it that having this day of rest allows the human mind to do this big picture thinking that allows us to drive our culture and our civilization forward?

Tiffany: [00:13:51] Well, I think that when you're constantly being interrupted with the immediate requests of people and news and bosses [00:14:00] and things, you're only able to think a certain distance. I often my favorite kind of thinking, one of the reasons why I miss traveling is I love looking at airplanes and I love that look of just like the clouds and the distance. And I often think that I do some of my best thinking about a plane. And I feel that same way on my SATs, like I have the space to think bigger and I do my big picture thinking and I have the space to think big and to think long and have the perspective that I don't really feel like I get during the week, which is always a working mom, responsive and a working filmmaker. Just I just feel like I'm just responding to a lot and I don't have a lot of time to reflect.

Harpreet: [00:14:46] And Olympia was interesting. You talked about the book is like the standardization of time has changed the way that we rest. So talk to us about this concept of standardization of time, because there's like there's a time when there was no time in time when there was time.

Tiffany: [00:15:03] Yeah, time is really interesting because before their standardized time kind of sunk everyone up, but then computers made it so people can work around the clock in different parts of the world, which is really interesting and cool, actually. Like I work with people in different time zones and they could have like so much work done before I even get online. And that's the beauty of the Internet. But the problem is, like even with email, like people are sending emails all the time and and texts and texts, just interrupt whatever you're doing. Like, I bet you have the text that people send if they really thought is what I'm about to send worth interrupting that person's like flow of what they're thinking about for like 15 or 20 minutes, because that's what it does to get back in the flow. And I think we've created so many technologies that are about interruption and they don't allow you to have like a fluid thought. And if you think about, like Einstein, they [00:16:00] say that he came up with this theory of relativity when he was just taking a stroll down the sand and he had time to daydream. He had time to think. And it wasn't like listening to a podcast, like every second were so optimized, listening to something, talking to someone, getting feedback, like we never give our brain this what I think is the most magical space for the brain, which is to daydream and to just think on its own. And as a creative filmmaker, I'm always trying to think of the best environment to let my mind think and certainly the technologies. I feel very inspired and creative online a lot of the time, but I really crave time to just think,

Harpreet: [00:16:43] Yeah, I'm guilty of that too. Even when I go on my walks like

Tiffany: [00:16:46] A podcast,

Harpreet: [00:16:48] Like podcasts and a double speed at that.

Tiffany: [00:16:53] Ok, let me do something that's going to try to undo that, because I used to get in the shower and turn on the news and like what's happening in the world and now I'm like OK, or doing the dishes. But I really try now and taking a walk. I'm not all the time, but some of the time I just go, OK, let your brain get into its most magical state because it's actually there's a neuroscience term which is the default mode network, which is all about letting your mind wander and make unusual connections. And that's where creativity comes from, is unusual links. So when you're taking a shower, doing the dishes, going for a walk, that's mostly when that kind of thinking happens because your mind is going back in time, forward in time, thinking of a conversation you had, just like it's playing if doing time travel and it's making all these great new connections. But the problem is the way we're living now is, yeah, we're listening to audio book on double speed. We're listening to a podcast. We're taking calls where the solution is in the shower. We're multitasking every second. And so we're never letting our mind get into its magic state. So I think about that. So I [00:18:00] would say about half of the time I'm able to go, I'm just going to go for a walk. I'm not going to call anyone. I'm not going to listen to anything. And I'm going to look at my mind play. And if we look at our mind like we're the curators of our mind. So there's so many amazing podcasts. My seven year old daughter says I believe in surround learning. I mean, she's always learning podcast, documentary and YouTube. She's so excited by the access to knowledge, which I love. But I still try to say to her and on our tech, Robert, just let it go, because you have to digest and process everything you've learned because you just have input, input, input. There's none of that time to.

Harpreet: [00:18:38] Process, it's something interesting about how we just let your mind idle, you have these collisions of thoughts and be able to come up. That's right. That's right. So its default mode network is being constantly connected to screens interfering with that process.

Tiffany: [00:18:56] That doesn't let you into that process. I mean, it really doesn't. I feel like I only really get into that process on my SATs or when I'm taking a walk or the shower, you have to make space. They actually say now that I'm 50, when I'm thinking about all this for your brain is actually good for new cells to generate in your brain to have like two hours of silence a day. I don't get that. But I do think about, you know, you are the curator and protector of your brain and what are you letting in? Are you following people that inspire you or you listening to things that grow your brain, grow your empathy, grow your courage, or is it making you feel bad afterwards or stressed afterwards? And life has enough stresses like what do you then bathing your brain in? And, you know, there's certainly so much great content out there. I mean, that's when I look at my daughter, I go, well, she's learning so much and her brain is like expanding, expanding. But I know for me, I value that that time [00:20:00] that lets it process it all.

Harpreet: [00:20:03] And so, I mean, I'm 100 percent for that. Like, I love keeping my mind break and just kind of getting to that default mode network. I did a podcast interview with Alex Payne, who wrote the book, Reste. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that book.

Tiffany: [00:20:16] No, but it sounds like a book I need to read.

Harpreet: [00:20:19] I think you'll really, really enjoy that book. It gels really well with a lot of stuff you're talking about in twenty four six. So he's talking about just the need for rest of building in these moments of just the act of leisure where you're just not doing anything, maybe just walking around. And I was going to do some severe burnout issues like a month ago and I just spent one afternoon where I just didn't do anything, which I just cleaned the house. No music, no podcast, no nothing. Wife and baby were at her mom's house and I just cleaned the house. And it's just the most relaxing thing ever. And they kept getting ideas, like I kept having to run to my notebook and write stuff down and do things like that. And I found that very fascinating.

Tiffany: [00:21:05] I love I mean, I might actually I do write down ideas on a notepad, and I like knowing that I can put it somewhere so I don't have to like it any other way, but like going back to rest. And I do have a whole chapter that reframes the idea of rest as a technology. And if you think about technology, the promise of technology is it makes things faster and more efficient and better. And if you think of any tech ad, that's what it's saying. Get the new laptop, get the new iPhone. It's faster. It's quicker, it's better make you more efficient. And if we all looked at truly taking a day of rest in that same way, if we truly take a day of rest, we're going to be faster and more efficient the other days and more productive and creative and happier. And that's really the way that I feel, is that the day after my text about I feel so rejuvenated and reconnected in myself to my family, I feel just like a better person after that one day of rest. So, yeah, that is [00:22:00] my technology.

Harpreet: [00:22:01] And speaking of notepads and journaling, you've got a pretty awesome journaling practice. Talk to us about that.

Tiffany: [00:22:07] Oh, I'm so glad you said that, because I talk about all my journaling in my book, but I am just about to finish a proposal to do my own journal and my own discussion cards based on twenty four hours because I use all these other ones that are kind of kind of what I want, but I figure I want to create exactly what I want. But I do do a journal every morning. I don't look at my phone, I write in my journal what I'm grateful for and what I hope for the day. And before I go to bed, I also write what happened that day. And then on my text, I general for like three hours and I have all these prompts, and so I'm finally designing one journal that will do everything for me, and then I'll make it available to all my readers because a lot of people ask me for more tools for this kind of way of living. I'm super excited about.

Harpreet: [00:22:57] I thought I was the only one that had a crazy drinking habit, so I'm going to tell

Tiffany: [00:23:00] Me about yours.

Harpreet: [00:23:01] Tell me there's the six minute journal that I use.

Tiffany: [00:23:05] I've never seen a six minute. One five minute.

Harpreet: [00:23:08] Yeah, I couldn't find the five minute journal on the Canadian Amazon, but they had a six minute journal. And it's amazing. Like the first almost 70 pages is is almost like a book. And I think you'd really enjoy this.

Tiffany: [00:23:22] I'm going to order for research.

Harpreet: [00:23:23] Yeah, that's a good book. And then I bought this journal for my wife and I for a fifth anniversary last year, and it's just a one line journal for five years. So you'll have, like, you know, five.

Tiffany: [00:23:37] Oh, that's cool.

Harpreet: [00:23:39] And then I got a journal here where I so I do this is like a philosophical reflection journal. I read like a philosophical quote, usually from some stoic philosopher, then interpret it, digest it and try to model

Tiffany: [00:23:52] Like you're my kind of human man. We would say, well, it's what are you like?

Harpreet: [00:23:57] You know, last month I get the artist journal [00:24:00] to go the morning pages for for everyone. So. Yeah, and this is how I spend it

Tiffany: [00:24:07] And I have to write this down. I'm going to get well, it's interesting because I am literally today finishing my proposal and I cite all of these other journals, but there's two that I clearly need to order, which is the artist's way one and the six minute journal. That's so funny.

Harpreet: [00:24:25] That is that that's how I spend the first hour of my days, typically just like writing internally.

Tiffany: [00:24:31] Well, then that's such a I mean, that's rare and it's so good. I mean, it's is again, going back to like you're the great protector of your brain. And I just felt my morning brain is the most creative brain. It's just the it's the most fresh brain. And if you let that very subtle, creative mind get sucked into email and social media, that's such a waste. It is the waste of your best friend. I mean, everyone listening. Some people like I'm most creative at night, but I would say the majority of my friends that are writers, they're most creative times in the morning and just treat that whatever your time. Is it like Magic Hour? Like what are you going to do to you know, I look at creativity like an athlete and that is the most magical time for me to be creative and think and write. So I have all these journals to kind of guide me through that process. I'm so glad you do, too. That's so nice to hear.

Harpreet: [00:25:26] And I also love waking up super early in the morning as well.

Tiffany: [00:25:29] We have a 10 month old. How does that?

Harpreet: [00:25:32] Well, we're we're lucky. This kid loves to sleep, so he sleeps quite a bit and he's already got like ten teeth. So he's like almost done teething. So it's quite nice. But usually I'm up at four, four thirty. But recently over the last six weeks it's been more like five thirty or six. I've been sleeping a little bit, like I said, some burnout issues and stuff. But a lot of throughout history, I feel like it's been said that waking up early in the morning, there's just a lot of great stuff that happens. [00:26:00] And I think it has to do with you're still in that half awake, half sleep mode and you're able to tap into kind of that diffuse default mode network in the brain a little bit easier. That's right. There's the other network you talk about in your book as well, which is, I guess, kind of the opposite of that to

Tiffany: [00:26:19] The task positive network.

Harpreet: [00:26:21] Yeah, yeah. Just about that.

Tiffany: [00:26:22] And well, that's a really interesting network, too, you know, that that's when you're focused on something and you're like, I am directing my brain to edit a movie or to code or make a table or cook this meal. You know, it's a focused task. So it's like the default mode network and then the task positive network and. I think you just need to understand the and then there's the you could be directed by something else, like on the Internet or by a show where it's really kind of directing the way you're thinking, which listen, in a book, I mean, I love to read and you could say that you're being directed by the writer to think of a story, which is interesting. But I think that a lot of what we're zoning out to is designed to make you just want to click on the next thing again and again. And that dopamine rush, like when you binge watch your ultimately setting your dopamine levels so high that you require that level of dominance when you turn that game off or screen off, it's like the real world could never meet that expectation because you've just been bingeing on dopamine. Really?

Harpreet: [00:27:38] How about speaking of getting kind of. Manipulated by things in some way, how are algorithms manipulating our animal instincts?

Tiffany: [00:27:52] Well, I think that the desire to want more. I mean, if you think of the prefrontal cortex and your brain is about planning [00:28:00] and control and filtering what you say and thinking twice before you do something, but then a lot of the Internet is designed for making you want to click on something, making you want to watch something, making you want to buy something, making you feel left out of something, making you compare yourself to something, making yourself so. I mean, it's putting you in a perpetual state of wanting what you don't have. Whereas what I find, which is so dramatic every time I turn off the screens on Friday night, is I go from a state of wanting to just being a state of appreciation and being happy where I am and not wanting what I don't have. And so I think that desire to want is very you know, that's very animal instinct. I want to eat. I wanted this. I want to have sex. I want to like animal desires. Right. And the Internet is playing with those desires. And so puts you in just you're just a perpetual animal online. And that when I turn off the screen, I'm like, oh, I got off the treadmill. Oh, my goodness. I feel like I get my prefrontal cortex back and I kind of recalibrate. Oh, I didn't really want that. It was like driving me to a frenzy.

Harpreet: [00:29:21] That's really interesting how they can like their design to pull those strings, to keep us kind of engaged with that, with constantly being engaged with the software on this thing. And if it wasn't for this wonderful technology that we wouldn't be able to do what we're doing here now. Right?

Tiffany: [00:29:38] Right. I mean, that's the rub. It's so great. Yeah.

Harpreet: [00:29:41] And we're living in this virtual world and everybody's having virtual meetings. We're having a virtual meeting now. Right. It's going to require us. This virtual world is required to speak to friends, family, colleagues through screens like we are right now. Right. And even though we're looking at each other, I don't think we're having, like, eye contact because it's a bit different. Right. [00:30:00] So talk to us about the importance of this face to face, eye to eye contact, especially you talk about how it plays on the parasympathetic nervous system.

Tiffany: [00:30:11] Yeah. So first of all, you're right. I think one of the reasons why we're getting so much fatigue and is we're never really making eye contact with people. We're kind of like the cameras in the wrong place from the screen. And if this kind of Quad's eye contact for a whole year and, you know, you have a 10 month old. So I'm sure, you know, when your 10 month old is looking into your eyes, that's what's causing the brain to grow. And we're not getting that. And the parasympathetic nervous system is all the things the like tend and be friend tending rest and digest and love and comfort and friendship and all of these things that calm down the stress in your body. And we need to do more activities that activate the parasympathetic nervous system. I think everyone that's listening knows when they've kind of been online too long. You start feeling not good and and there's no end to the Internet and there's no closing cues like it would love it if you just were on all the time, just hide, hijack your brain and just sucked into the vortex forever. But you have to go. You know what? No, that doesn't feel good all the time. And I probably shouldn't look at it before I go to sleep for a couple of hours. I sleep better. And when I wake up, I should directly go to that before I had a thought and that you'll be happier. And my book, I really walk you through my own personal transformation, but I show a lot of science on the why because it's all there.

Tiffany: [00:31:38] It's like, you know, even we're going back to training about wrests the the research, even around interval training for athletes like you need to give your body rest. You need to give your mind rest. And we're all living through this incredible experiment, which is, thank God we have the Internet during the pandemic. What would it have been like without it? But we [00:32:00] need to also figure out a way to live well with all of this technology. And I believe that's carving out a full day every week because I know from experience it's made things so much better and, you know, it's only going to accelerate. The pandemic accelerated so many ways. We're using screens, but what are the analog things that we've all learned in the pandemic that we want more of in our lives? And I think it's really important to check in with how you feel after you're online for a really long time because your body is telling you everything. I mean, a lot of people that read my book like kind of like what you said. It was like everything you were already thinking, because I think on some level we all know it's not good to be online as much. And so here's a solution that's ancient as an ancient idea that's just brought into a modern era. And also, here's all the research. Why is a good. I didn't do it, and for your kids,

Harpreet: [00:32:53] Yeah, one thing I've really tried to do to really draw boundaries is just this in this office, this is the only place where I keep my laptop, like, I will bring the laptop out of this room, will bring my phone out of this room, actually. This phone in the morning. I keep it tucked away in the corner bathroom where I can get to it and don't even look at it until tomorrow. I mean, just because it becomes too

Tiffany: [00:33:16] Much, it's ridiculous. I mean, it's too alluring. Like, I now keep my phone. We have two of the bedrooms upstairs and it's down here. So when I go up at eight thirty, it does come up with me. And it's made such a big difference to just out of sight, out of mind. It's too tempting just to do one thing and then that one thing leads to 20 things is interesting.

Harpreet: [00:33:37] I actually just going back to talking about that eye contact and how babies when eye contact when I was reading your book, it was like during that same week my my son started doing some really cute. You just like come straight up to my face and look at his forehead against mine. Just look at it. And I was like, oh man. I was just reading about that. Your book. That is pretty interesting.

Tiffany: [00:33:59] So if I [00:34:00] made a film that I want to send Sunday called Brainpower on PSINet, or if it's just a ten minute film about the birth to five years, you know, that's the most important time for brain growth and everything that's happening there. I'll remember this Sunday after we

Harpreet: [00:34:14] Definitely send it to me. I do love your videos. Your movies are really awesome. There's one in particular that I really thought it was like the science of character and that was really, really good. When I recommend everyone check that out, I'll leave a link to it. But I guess what is character?

Tiffany: [00:34:30] Well, I made a whole suite of films that really looked at the neuroscience and social science of character development. So things like can you strengthen your sense of empathy, courage, creativity, all of these things we're talking about, really? And, you know, at the time, I wasn't linking it directly to tech support. I was just saying, like, if you want to be more courageous, it's like a muscle. You have to practice doing scary things that make you if it's public speaking, just keep doing it and you're going to get better. You actually have to practice being more empathetic. You have to practice being more generous. You want to be generous there, keep giving and gave a little bit more, even if it's just a dollar like these are all muscles. And so I was really interested in this idea that all these attributes of who you are. And I was working off the research of the positive psychologist Martin Seligman and Eric Peterson, who really reframed psychology to be instead of what's wrong with you, what's right with you and how do you strengthen that. But now that I really started, the longer I was doing tech about really understanding that you also have to create space in your life to work on things, it's very hard to make time every day. But I almost feel like my texture of these days to work on all the things that I want to strengthen myself, like patience, appreciation, all those things that have more time to do when the screens aren't there.

Harpreet: [00:35:49] I like that idea of a character being a muscle one other day and I didn't show you my idea. Journal interview, jambia altucher on my show recently and [00:36:00] he has this practice where he calls it the idea muscle. So it's like ten ideas every day. So that's where I took that I that idea from

Tiffany: [00:36:09] Ten ideas just based on anything or what's the framing to do.

Harpreet: [00:36:13] Yeah. So can ideas could be like ten ideas for things that I want to do with my son this weekend or ten ideas for things that I want to write a blog post about five or ten ideas for LinkedIn.

Tiffany: [00:36:26] Really. Yeah, just to kind of. Yeah. That's about like keeping your muscle. I've heard of something at IDEO where they do this practice, where it's a design class at Stanford and they do things like the hold of a paper clip, say one hundred things you can do with this paper clip and like, yeah, you know, they brainstorm with the students, like, what are a hundred things you could do with this object or and it is it's about like exercising the muscle of creativity and curiosity and innovation and all of those things.

Harpreet: [00:36:53] So curious about how does that work is how are their algorithms impacting that development and refinement of these muscles in ourselves, like this character, for example?

Tiffany: [00:37:07] I mean, I think the algorithms are designed to kind of prey on your weaknesses and your character strength. So that's why it takes an awareness of what what strengths are getting stronger by being online. I mean, a lot of young people, they're able to have a platform and voice their opinion and that strengthens their sense of doing that, which is really good. But there's I think people you know, when you're on social media, like sometimes I really have. Speaking of curating your brand, like I'm very careful who I follow. Like, I only follow people that I feel like they're posting things that inspire me or make me feel challenge mayor of Kushima. Like, really I went through this whole year. On Facebook and follow like so I'm still friends with them, but I only follow people that I think are posting valuable information because [00:38:00] anyone who follows shaping your brain, shaping your thoughts. So, again, going back to the year, the curator of your brain, you have to be a good curator.

Harpreet: [00:38:10] Yeah, that's interesting concept. That didn't really occur to me until far too late in life. Like, I'm turning 30 this year. And it wasn't until, like three years ago that I realized that, wait, I can actually choose what I consume, but I don't have to listen to the same playlist of 100 songs like I could do things in.

Tiffany: [00:38:33] Yeah. And you have that. And what an exciting role to be like the curator. I mean, you don't want to you don't want to fall into a bubble. Right. So there's certain social media like Twitter, for example, where I kind of feel like I see everything. And I do go to news, especially in our country has such a tumultuous four years. And it was very scary with the president we had. But I was definitely going to the websites that supported him. What's happening? What it's not about being in a bubble, but it's again, time management. Like don't spend all of your time in a stressful ball of hell with pandemic news and election news, whatever. Like, no what's happening in the world. Don't let it ruin your whole life. Look at the things that you have control to change and don't look at the things in your home that you should appreciate that you might not be. If you're online all the time looking at other things, you know, that sweet 10 month old child putting is where next year's wanting to look into your eyes like nothing is more important than that at that moment. So I think it's really thinking about every decision you make is your attention is your most valuable resource. And there's a lot of businesses that want your attention. And how can you be a protector of your attention?

Harpreet: [00:39:47] I think I really, really appreciate that. So be into winter down here. I've got two more kind of formal questions and we'll do a real quick random round. So are a pioneer innovator in the tech space. [00:40:00] He created the Webby Awards, which I am completely copying and I'm doing so. Yeah, so I'm doing the friend, a friend of mine, and I do the Data Community Content Creators Award.

Tiffany: [00:40:10] Oh, excellent.

Harpreet: [00:40:11] So I pretty much ripped off your idea for the Web.

Tiffany: [00:40:16] It's fine. We did it from the Grammys, so it's like everybody's kind of building up other people.

Harpreet: [00:40:22] So can you speak to experience being a woman in tech? Like what were some of the struggles or challenges that you faced and how can we make sure that this current generation of women in tech don't go through those same struggles?

Tiffany: [00:40:34] Well, I feel really fortunate that I had two parents that just raised me to believe I could do anything I wanted to do. So I never really I don't feel that way in the film industry either. I think I love being one of the only women because I'm like, oh, I have a totally different perspective than you. And I thought that was my great advantage. And I always thought I have a superpower being a woman. So I know that so many women don't feel that way. And so I want to value and acknowledge that. But I do feel like it was always an advantage. But I think that the more women that are funding projects, the more women that are leading and the more women that are creating environments. So women can be mothers and in the workforce, the better. But I feel very hopeful. I feel like just watching my daughter's generation and they're just like they feel very confident to be about that. But I you know, I think this whole me too movement. And it's really I mean, I think that would be the one thing several times I was put in really uncomfortable situations where I was propositioned by a boss or someone I shouldn't have been. But it's funny, I didn't I look at it now and I was so young and I think there's so much more awareness now that I and more avenues to say something. I really do feel like we're making progress in that area, but it still happens all the time. [00:42:00] But I think the more women that speak out, the more it'll be acceptable to do that. A couple of times that happened to me, I didn't say anything. I didn't want it to. And I was like, it didn't dismantle me. And I just kept going. I was like, well, I'm going to leave that job and move on. But I know a lot of people where it it messes with their psyche for so long.

Harpreet: [00:42:22] Yeah. Thank you very much for sharing your experience. And I know that a lot of women are going to be encouraged and inspired by your journey. And, you know, the I guess the trail that you've blazed over the course of your career has been awesome. So last final question. We'll do a quick round around here. We've got to get to that guitar lesson.

Tiffany: [00:42:41] I know it's my favorite activity on Wednesday is.

Harpreet: [00:42:44] Yeah, I've got a guitar sitting right there in the corner of my office that I just know I love. Never get a chance to. Though I should think,

Tiffany: [00:42:52] You know, you should do well, I'll tell you, you should take lessons purely because actually I said guitar because that's what my girls play. I play ukulele. But I'm telling you that an hour every week I put I know I get that time and it's like this gift because I've paid for that time. I've reserved it and I play with her and it inspires me to practice more. And I think that that is a real gift with the Internet, too, is we just do it all online.

Harpreet: [00:43:19] Yeah, that's awesome. But yeah. So it's one hundred years in the future. But what do you want to be remembered for?

Tiffany: [00:43:29] That's a great question. I think always experimenting with the latest technology and never forgetting the importance of the original technology of presence and eye contact and turning it all off and whatever. You know, as we move into the future, it's going to constantly changing what the technology is, but always valuing this day where I'm completely present without any interference.

Harpreet: [00:43:56] I love that of that. So go ahead, jump into the random round. What [00:44:00] is your favorite song to play on the ukulele?

Tiffany: [00:44:02] Oh, gosh, I've been playing a lot for what it's worth, which is kind of a political song, and it's gotten me through this last four years of the band. But I've been also playing a Nina Simone song that I love. Yeah, I have a lot of. The mood.

Harpreet: [00:44:17] All right. When do you think the first video to hit one trillion views on YouTube will happen? And what will that video be about?

Tiffany: [00:44:27] Oh, gosh, I think it's probably going to be music because that still seems like the universal language, which I appreciate that. And what's the highest number of it is that currently, I don't know.

Harpreet: [00:44:40] Yeah, it's over eight billion and it is baby shark which displaced Esposito in November of twenty twenty one.

Tiffany: [00:44:50] So in like a year, we'll hit a trillion.

Harpreet: [00:44:53] Yeah, I mean, I believe it at home watching.

Tiffany: [00:44:56] Yeah, exactly.

Harpreet: [00:44:58] So do you think that we have to achieve something in order to be worth something?

Tiffany: [00:45:06] No, no. I mean, you can be an incredible mother or father and you know, no, I think everyone has worth I I was definitely brought up in a family that was achievement oriented, but there was a lot of pressure for that. And especially as I get older, you just understand that everything's interconnected, everything. Everyone has an important role to play.

Harpreet: [00:45:29] What are you currently reading?

Tiffany: [00:45:32] Oh, that's a great question. Reading two books right now. One is called Dakota Winter, which is great by Tom Barbash. And it takes place in New York and like nineteen seventy nine at this apartment building called the Dakota. I'm really enjoying it. I just finished one of my best friend's books called We Run the Tides by Venta Libido. That's fantastic. Takes place in San Francisco in the eighties. And then I'm just tonight I'm going to start reading this book by [00:46:00] Sherry Turkle called The Empathy Diaries. And she and I are interviewing each other about each other's books and a couple of weeks.

Harpreet: [00:46:05] So I definitely be liable for that. Yeah, yeah. The more fiction in my life. So I'll definitely check out those books. So now I'm going to open up a random question generator. OK, what's something you learned in the last week?

Tiffany: [00:46:24] Oh, I guess I love that. OK, so I thought, OK, we are building a new website and we really wanted to incorporate a lot more video into the website. And so we really nailed learning how to do that. I know that sounds simple, but we're film. I'm a filmmaker, I run a film studio and I wanted our website to be much more of a moving movement experience.

Harpreet: [00:46:50] Nadhir, if you go to my Web site, it's like a little 12 year old did. It's it's

Tiffany: [00:46:54] Horrible. It's just how you going into Wick's? They have so many great templates now and it's very easy to create something cool.

Harpreet: [00:47:01] You have definitely put out that. Who was your favorite teacher and why?

Tiffany: [00:47:07] I had a favorite teacher at UC Berkeley, her name. She stole Marilyn THave and she was my film theory teacher. And she had such an infectious excitement about how film changes society and culture and how new technologies change the way we told stories and how the way we changed the way we told stories, changed culture and inspired me to be a filmmaker. Really?

Harpreet: [00:47:31] That's awesome. What Dumb accomplishment are you most proud of?

Tiffany: [00:47:37] Oh, I'm the hall of I any college fan. What do you consider to as a dumb accomplishment maybe. Oh I know, I know, I know. I can take a cherry the what do you call it from some of the cherry and I can turn it into a knot in my tongue. In my mouth. I'm like thirty seconds. That's, that's [00:48:00] a dumb achievement.

Harpreet: [00:48:02] Last question here. What is your favorite city

Tiffany: [00:48:05] In New York City. The yeah, I'm Manhattan. That's my other city.

Harpreet: [00:48:11] Oh, man, that's crazy. Especially in the Bay Area that

Tiffany: [00:48:14] I love science school, but I love New York. New York is pretty AIs.

Harpreet: [00:48:18] Yeah. Most of my sister went to Berkeley, where she graduated a long time ago, but used to always go to Berkeley and then up to San Francisco and from Sacramento was like an hour, hour and a half or so. Oh is one of my favorite cities. So Tiffanie, how can people connect with you and where can we find you online?

Tiffany: [00:48:36] Yeah, if they go to Tiffany Shlain dot com and that's s h l i n dot com, all my films, books speaking, all kind of stuff. And I'm on social media. I'm on Instagram quite a lot lately. Twitter, Facebook, all those Sociales. Right.

Harpreet: [00:48:52] Well, I will definitely link to all those in the show notes. You guys check this book out. Well, you guys cannot see it because it's audio only. But get this book. It is twenty four. Twenty four six. The power of unplugging one day a week. I highly recommend it because before it just encompasses everything that I really enjoy studying and learning about only one book. So definitely check that out.

Tiffany: [00:49:14] Thank you. What a great. I really enjoy this conversation. And between the journaling, the playing music, I'm sure we would hang if we lived in the same city.

Harpreet: [00:49:22] Definitely. I'll let you know when I'm back home.

Tiffany: [00:49:24] Can be great. Okay. Great talking to take

Harpreet: [00:49:27] Care of me. Thank you very much.

Tiffany: [00:49:29] Okay. Bye bye.