Evan Pellett Mixed.mp3 [00:00:00] I create events before I go to them, much like Larry Bird, the famous basketball player would sit in the stands and see all of his shots before the game was ever played. And so some people may not believe in that. They may have questions about that in. The most important thing with that is to try. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the artists of Data Science podcast, the only self development podcast for Data scientists. You're going to learn from and be inspired by the people, ideas and conversations that'll encourage creativity and innovation in yourself so that you can do the same for others. I also host open office hours. You can register to attend by going to bitterly dot com forward, slash a d. S o h. I look forward to seeing you all there. Let's ride this beat out into another awesome episode. And don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Our guest today is a number one ranked recruiter and former sea level talent executive with numerous awards in his two decade plus long career. [00:01:42] He's helped recruit, hire and manage talent at some of the top technology firms and unicorn startups. He's coached everyone, salespeople, Harvard scientists to CEOs and everyone in between to get hired and when and if that isn't impressive enough already. He's also a published author. He's taken his years of experience and distilled it into a groundbreaking Hands-On proven scientific approach tracking job interviews. His book reveals a science that we learned and practiced aggressively will allow you to go on the offensive, controlling and creating the interview the way you want it, while answering all of the hiring managers questions often before they're asked. And today, he's here to share some tips with us so that we're ready to press our next interview. [00:02:38] So please help me in welcoming our guest today, author of Cracking the Code to Successfully Interview Evan Elliott. [00:02:47] Evan, thank you so much for taking time out your schedule to be here today. I really appreciate it. [00:02:53] Harp so excited to be here. Thank you. [00:02:55] It's an honor and I'm super excited to get into your book. I was so happy when I found the article. It was included in my prime membership. And I think the thing that's interesting, I started going through it. And as I got to get the start of the show and what the audience is going to love to hear some super happy that you made time to be here. [00:03:15] That's the kind of kid you were in high school. [00:03:18] Sure, yeah. So high school, I enjoyed athletics and basketball especially, and was kind of social, but was also a little withdrawn. I think I was shy. So I talk with people, but I was more on the fringes of different groups and my dad was a chemical engineer. So I kind of had that mindset of wanting to pull things apart. Didn't know it as much at the time, but so, yeah, I was sort of an evolving kid, didn't really know which group I belonged to. [00:03:54] So when you were in high school, what did you think that your future would look like? And how different is your life now than what you thought? [00:04:05] Question you in high school? I felt like I might end up in sales or in public speaking, and that was a dream for me. There are some similarities, only going to psychology, but I didn't think I would go to get the master's in industrial psychology. So that shifted. And then I was pretty social, too. I wasn't as focused on my studies early on. So I think my father, who has passed on some years ago, got up and cheered wherever he is. When I wrote the book because he couldn't get me as focused, I was a little bit more socially involved. And then eventually I got to really get into the book, into my studies. [00:04:49] So after high school and college, you study into industrial psychology. That's an interesting topic. Talk to us a little bit about what what that is. What is industrial psychology? [00:04:59] Sure. So I went towards its first counseling psychology, that industrial organizational psychology. And what happened, Harpreet, is that I really wanted to focus on group training, group transformation, helping people. And I had taken some trainings that were experiential in nature when I was about 19, and it pushed me in that direction. So in the industrial psych world, what I realized is that groups and people in corporations didn't really have strategies to get human behavior outcome. [00:05:34] It was sort of hit or miss and a lot of different personalities, people dealing with each other. [00:05:39] So a lot of what I was focused on was task design motivation, behavior change. And the passion that it all really moved towards was how do we change behavior or how do we predict certain outcomes in real time. [00:05:55] And so that's why I went back for the Masters and Postmaster's Work and along the way had no from from then until now, you've had some amazing experience working at companies such as Oracle and just crushing it better with offers No. One, awards and things of that nature. Tell us a little bit about your professional experience and how did all this work you did professionally and how did that inspire the idea for your book? [00:06:24] While I went into the corporate world at Oracle and what happened Harp, which was amazing, is I got all these advanced degrees. My passion was into becoming a corporate psychologist. And when I finished, all the jobs dried up. And so I had to either go on for a PhD or reinvent myself. And I had a friend in the family that knew someone who was a recruiter at Oracle guy Bill Dunovant. I went to speak with him. He was actually the director recruiting. And I met him when I was younger and I had run into him at a family event, of all things, a funeral, and was chatting with them and telling them what I was doing. And I thought he might help me get a corporate psychologist job. But he he couldn't they don't it up at that point. So he spoke to me about recruiting. And at that time I said thank you. I so want to go to workshops. I want to save the world. I want to transform companies. It didn't seem right to me, but the more we spoke, I realized that there were some great income potential and we spoke as well about the rewards of developing recruiting programs and different things that have been solved in the recruiting world. So I got into Oracle. I didn't know how to do email or anything technical wise, knew nothing about anything from a technology standpoint. And so I had to learn it quickly, too. And that's something that is really the toughest company in the world. I learned everything and became their number one recruiter in six months and then broke all the hiring records. [00:07:57] But where the book was inspired is that a woman came in the interview at Oracle and with a very tough interview process, they're very strict. She was a friend of a friend, and when interviewing Harp, she actually was walking across the carpet and she caught her foot and she fell flat on her face in the middle of Oracle. And Oracle could be very unforgiving. You know, if you did something like that or even the slightest mistake, they'd say, hey, wonderful, great to see you. Thanks for coming. The door is there next. And there was no word Mensing or shame about it. The company was so intense. So I wished her off to a side room. And I quickly gave her part of the research science and said, listen, you need to do this, this, this, and you need to make an impact. And here's what we need to talk about. That's true to your experience. And if you don't do that, you're not going to secure their attention in this interview and they're going to say, see you later. And so she did that. And I didn't think she'd get the job. I just figured I'd be consoling her and speaking to her friends that I knew. And she ended up getting the job from one of the toughest hiring managers in the world. They're amazing guy. Brilliant. And so what happened was I started to believe in the fact that I actually had a science and a plan and I began to write it out and put it all together. [00:09:21] At that moment, I'm excited to get into this this step process, the language framework. Walk us through this. [00:09:29] Sure. Definitely. I want to say to the reporter framework also came out of seeing about a thousand people fail the job interview at work on the job. [00:09:39] And so what I noticed in the research science, I really focused on eight areas that were absolutely key. Some of these were from but it was really a marriage, I should say, from my psychology background, also from getting visibility and being able to listen to the top leaders at Oracle and other companies when they debriefed after a candidate left because I became the number one recruiter very quickly, Oracle was breaking records. And but the benefit of that, when I broke the all time hiring record and got the best recruiter award, is that these people, the senior vice president, started saying, hey, Evan, come on in, come sit with us while we talk. And normally, if you're not a good recruiter, they leave you outside the room when they debrief. But I started to get all this behind the scenes guidance coaching and got to listen. So what I found out was that these areas are areas that every manager needs to know in order to say yes. [00:10:38] However, some of these areas, they didn't even know that they needed to know these things or from someone. They were just trying to get all this. And so what I came up with is in reapproach results, energy, attitude, processes, relationships, then interviewing them, then learning to close them for the job and then moving to humanity. I realized those were steps, but they had to be done in a certain order because they needed to keep the hiring manager awake and present and in the conversation. [00:11:12] So from a results standpoint, anybody that interview someone, one of their biggest questions from a results standpoint is, is this person going to perform on the team? Are. You going to be a good investment for me, or are they going to cause me pain when they get here through their failure? So every manager, sometimes I will say every manager spends forty five minutes trying to figure out someone's results and look through it so that they can make a sort of a verbal commitment to themselves that, yes, I believe in this person, I see what they've done and I know that they're going to be able to perform here. But oftentimes they don't even get all that information with all their probing. So what I did with the results piece is I have people quantify their results and basically call or even if they're not number one or number two, but pull all the results out of the things they've done, because even if they had 10 responsibilities in a job, chances are there were probably the best at two of them. And even someone say a financial analyst might have saved the company money. They might have finished products ahead of time, 20 percent ahead of time. Someone that's an engineer or scientist often discovers things or Data or the way things go together. They're often chosen to say, hey, I want you to take on this and this. So there's a lot of results that people can differentiate themselves with that show where they were better, smarter, faster and stronger. And so what I look to do is get people to solve a string of results from their first time in high school right up into the current. [00:12:51] So one to two to five results from everything that they've done. And in the beginning of the interview, if you had me and you said, Evan, thanks for coming in, tell me about why we should hire you as a recruiting executive. [00:13:05] And I would say, well, Harp, I was number one recruiter. Oracle broke the all time hiring record one the best recruiter award. And I doubled that revenue as a C-level talent person and a CEO within my first opportunity after being a recruiting leader as I rose up the ranks. But that's a small portion of my results. But the thing is, I want to leave you with no doubt about who I am and what I've done. So results is the first thing. And then second is energy. If you don't have energy in the interview while you're delivering your results, that hiring manager is going to be thinking about, oh, did I do my laundry, what am I having for dinner? One of my weekend plans. So your energy has to really capture that. That has the kind of hit home so that people practice in the mirror, get excited, come through so that people say, well, there's someone sitting in front of their they're here. The next piece is attitude. You've got to have a great attitude. So many people bring their past employer. It's it's unfortunate or they find a way to focus on negative or negative things. [00:14:10] And that's much different than probing questions. But it's amazing how many people let their personal stuff flow up even into an interview process or someone who hasn't talked to anybody in a while. Sometimes they might say, yeah, you have done all this and it's great, but you wouldn't believe what happened to my sister this week. And although we're human and we do care, that moment comes afterwards in the conversation. So in the next part, I will say and I'll go through Harp and then if you have questions for me, I can finish the second half. But the next letter is for processes. So if you have great results over here, the miniature I've had just walk out and say I loved this person, have it, but I have no idea how they got those great results. And I would say, well put. They have there were no one here and there. Yeah, but I have no idea. So sensory acuity for a hiring manager is your processes that you either used, developed or adopted somehow in order to get to your results. So in mind, I would say developed an employee referral program, made more outreach through calls and LinkedIn an email than any other recruiter, made sure that my outreach has had security opportunity, possibility in them, like I would give them the specifics that would help them say, OK, this guy really did do all these amazing things. And in processes to Harp, which is very interesting in those is a minute to might say, well, Harp, you know, that's a great process. We've wanted to do that here or we've never thought of how to do that. You'd be able to bring that to this team and you can say yes. In other ones, they might say, yes, I understand that's a good one or we need to perfect in this area. But managers really they need to know what you did and how you did it, what were your results and how did you get there? And they need to fill it with energy and a great attitude. So that's a first half of any questions? [00:16:11] Yeah, definitely. Come back up to that. The first are the results. So how do you make sure that we're demonstrating that we produced strong results in the past and. [00:16:23] Keep in mind, anybody at any level can do this, but the way we demonstrate that is we gather our rankings or our percentages, any awards we've gotten, anywhere where we finished projects or anywhere, we were selected for a project because some people never have gotten award or they there's no ranking of your number one data scientist or engineer here. [00:16:49] Another result is performance reviews. Sometimes people can say, hey, I was there for four years and every single year I got an eight level performance review or a five on a scale of one to five. And normally they can say, my boss selected me to be the lead on these two projects, even though I wasn't the senior engineer and I had to do a special presentation. [00:17:13] So if you get a level performance reviews and you're selected to do a couple of things, and if you finish those projects 20 percent ahead of time and made a discovery, the results would be in that particular role Harpreet Sahota level performance reviews. As a data scientist, I was specially selected to do the research on those two areas that we spoke about before that were very key. I finished those projects 20 percent ahead of the expected time on both of them. And while doing that, I found something that actually allowed us to solve a technical glitch that we weren't able to do before. And they had been working on that for a year and a half and could make that happen. [00:17:59] So that's a very gentle example of results. But as an accountant, that might be percentages, money saved. [00:18:06] As a salesperson, it might be how you were ranked, your percentages, the quota as a data scientist. It might be how did you do against your goals? I completed one hundred percent of my goals within this year, but I also completed three other projects. So you can say, hey, if I had 10 things to do and I did three of the things, I guess technically we could say you did one hundred and thirty percent of your expected goals as a scientist. So everything can be broken down, quantified into numbers if we really take time. But that's the thing. People spend all this time on education. They do all this work, but they don't take that half hour or an hour to really pull all the data out of what they've done and who they are. Is that helpful for results? [00:18:55] That definitely. So it could be a data scientist like I had deployed a model into production and now the models out there serving predictions to our stakeholders, which is now reducing the amount of time that they spend on doing some review tasks by two hours a week per person, so that that could be the more tangible result there. And we can also talk about well along the way to do that. Right. We also have to build this Data pipeline that took this raw data and essentially massage it and come up with a useful data model so that we can build a machine learning model works with also all the other stuff that we did. That leads up to the actual result as well, right? [00:19:38] Yes, definitely. Definitely. In your language and data science is so key on what we built, what was put out there. [00:19:48] But then the steps leading up to it are a result, because then you might also say in some cases I was the person who was able to get the first release of this done or I was expected to do one and I did three in a year's time. So anything that quantifies. But I think you're right on the money there. Absolutely. [00:20:10] So let's talk about energy. So what can we do to make sure our energy is on point? Because I know a lot of people will. They'll have a job interview and they'll just be stomaches and not that cold sweat. If you're nervous there, know the nervousness. It has clouded their thinking and they're not communicating as well as they should in the interview. How do we take that nervousness and make into something positive? [00:20:37] Yes. Yes, such a great question. So energy is energy. However, we experience it often the nervous energy or fear is that same energy that we have when we have exuberant happiness or joy or even energy flowing through us. So the biggest thing in interviewing is getting rid of the fear. The problem, though, as many times people resist it or they don't know how to transcend fear and transform it. So and also from an energy standpoint, having great energy is a lot different than having fearful energy. Right. We can be all nervous and people can feel it. One more frenetic and we're all charged with. Proper energy, so first thing we learn how to do is breathe, breathe, because people often get nervous and they get fearful and they hold their breath. So we breathe is the first thing. But energy wise, I've learned to practice because my energy Harp when I was going to be a corporate psychologist, I had to change it all around for interviewing and for Oracle because it would be like, Harpreet, how were you today and how are you feeling? And a very soft voice, a psychologist voice. And I had to become commands quick, direct awaken. So breathing while we're speaking. Second thing, looking in the mirror and speaking to ourselves, that's a very awkward exercise, makes us uncomfortable. But it's much better to be uncomfortable alone with you than in the interview. The third thing is, while you're practicing energy is raising your voice up and down. You're not uncomfortable with raising it up and down and in the mirror, moving some of your facial expressions up and down. So making funny ones, because one of the biggest things is when we kick energy into horsepower and we've been sitting there and all of a sudden I say, Harpreet up, so excited to be here today. I love everything you've done on the company. If we're not used to pushing that through us, we can become nervous and shake because it's very awkward. So the biggest thing for energy is to practice delivering it outside of it. Before that interview room, it can be even interviewing in front of friends. [00:22:55] It's much like public speaking, but we can't really it's almost like if we put the horsepower into a vehicle that's not equipped to handle it, you know, something is going to fall off or something won't work. So when we put this energy horsepower and we get it within us, we basically have to be able to accommodate it. But I want to say to related to that is a big part of energy is learning to determine your inner state before things happen. So the way I do that and which is jumping ahead of it, but it's visualization because I create events before I go to them. Much like Larry Bird, the famous basketball player would sit in the stands and see all of his shots before the game was ever played. And so some people may not believe in that. They may have questions about that. [00:23:46] And the most important thing with that is to try, because sometimes people can have contempt prior to investigation when they say, oh, no, that's not work, that's not proven. So I mentioned to people, think about someone you haven't seen and you may have done this before. [00:24:02] And all of a sudden they walk up behind you. You're at a phone booth and someone comes walking towards the person calls you. We do this all the time. We create things and then it shows up on the outside, but we don't even know it. [00:24:16] So but to be responsible for our energy first, we need to be able to get to Interpeace. We need to alleviate the fear. And I talk about that a lot in the book. But meditation has been key for me because I create every event, everything. I alleviate the fear. And I used to be very nervous. I go into these interviews or talk the talk at Oracle and I'd be like, I would freeze. And so I had to learn to also give me some peace that would allow myself to sit in fear and walk through the fear. So feel the fear, walk through. But I will say visualization and meditation, as well as talking in the mirror, practicing, lowering your voice, moving your facial expressions around, practicing, being loud, you'll be able to bring the energy through you. But if you want it to be an authentic energy, then meditate and practice. How do you want to feel and how you want to deliver and see it ahead of time and fifteen minutes a day for two or three days or five minutes a day even will change the way your energy is. You'll feel that source within you when we talk about the inner landscape and are going to ask me about that if we can change our inner landscape, we have a miraculous world within us that is limitless. If we can change that landscape and access that source power that's within us, we can bring that through us and miraculously affect the outside. And people feel it from us. They feel the excitement. People want energy, especially if you've done eight interviews and someone comes in and you know one more person than if that person comes in and wakes you up with the first, the middle or the last, you're going to remember that person more than anybody else. [00:26:04] Absolutely love that. That's like the vocal variety is super important. [00:26:09] You don't want to be in an interview and just be spitting stuff out very monotonously. So try to think about how you can use the vocal variety in your delivery. And one thing I used to do back when I was in the interview game, I would do that visualization like you talked about. I would look up to people after my interview with online. I know what their face looks like. Awesome. Maybe let me see if I can find them on YouTube. I can hear the voice. The mannerisms are like sometimes as hit miss. But if you at least for the moment, you are picked for the face. And what I would do is I would go on long walks just going on what it is, but I would play the conversation in my head. I want to go where this walking this way. I shake my head this way. I tell my story about myself in this way. Here's where I want to put emphasis on these particular words. And here's one that I just visualize the experience before it even happens. That way is something you trick your brain into thinking that you've been there, done that before, so that when actually happens, it's like, oh, not so bad. [00:27:14] Yes. Oh, my God, I love that. [00:27:18] That is right on. And visualizing what you're going to say, visualizing their reaction. The interesting thing about the brain someone explained to me recently is it doesn't know the difference between what we're visualizing and creating and what's out here. And so that's wonderful. You do that. And when you notice more of a flow in a piece, when you'd be in the interviews, if you practice. [00:27:41] Yeah, most definitely. Because then I'd also just remind myself that actually this is not a verbal exam. Yeah, I'm here for a job. But at the end of the day, they're human beings who have a requirement to try to fill for a job. And they're just talking to me to see if I'm the right person for those requirements. Obviously, I have to do the best I can to communicate that I'm the person they're looking for. But it's just a conversation. At the end of the day. Just treat it like a conversation now, like you're on trial, begging for your life in front of a judge about your brain sometimes can't tell the difference. One thing I is that that I've come across in researching stuff is like the same part of the brain that makes you nervous. It's that it's all part of that limbic system. That limbic system doesn't have any capacity for actually labeling an emotion. And physiologically, that nervous response is the exact same response as an excited response. Now it's that thinking part of your brain, prefrontal cortex, that labeling, they said, oh, I have a job interview coming up, this physiological response must indicate that, Mervis. And so you tell yourself and you start thinking about that. What if instead you say, I feel excited, like this is super cool. I an opportunity for me to like this could change my life. This is such an exciting opportunity, such a great company to talk to some great people like, yeah, I'm excited. Of course I should be excited. And that helps a lot too. [00:29:14] Oh yes. Definitely. Definitely reframing it. So. [00:29:19] So now that we're getting into the attitude of being in the workforce about this inner landscape that you had mentioned. [00:29:27] So the inner landscape is really our inner experience. And I do a lot of work with people from a coaching perspective now on eliminating stress and fear, whether it's as an executive for an interview. So the inner landscape or whatever that is, we can fake sometimes. And everybody, even when we're fearful, right. We feel the fear. We walk through it and eventually it dissipates. But the inner landscape is our inner experience, and whatever's within that landscape is normally what we bring forward into our interviews and into the physical. So I will say this for me, almost from a visualization and connection standpoint. It's also very similar to if you are thinking about a certain car that you want to buy, I don't know if you ever noticed that you start to see them everywhere and you notice every single one. The green is trained to connect towards those things. So the inner landscape, whatever we're focusing on, is what we create out here. And so there's different definitions of that. Wayne Dyer, one of my favorite authors, we call it our real magic song. And other people, many of them I'm sure you hear about, we become what we think about all day long, but we can't afford the luxury of a negative thought. [00:30:46] So whatever is singular activating system that. Yes. Reticular activating system. Exactly. Exactly. And I just had mentioned that last week and I had forgotten the term there. So when we're focused on our inner landscape and we can create it just like a painting or a work of art from scratch, if we're a visual. Seventy five percent people are visual summer hearing or auditory or others are feeling oriented. So we have to either show ourselves what we're going to see, tell ourselves what we're going to say and what we're going to hear, but also tell ourselves what we're going to feel. And we if we cover those three areas and the inner landscape, we're able to then come in and deliver that exact landscape into the interview process. If we're in fear, confused, hesitant, nervous, then we're probably not going to communicate that inner landscape. So the inner landscape is about winning the game here within ourselves before we ever show up to spend any time in person. [00:31:53] What's up, artists? I would love to hear from you. Feel free to send me an email to the artists of Data Science at Gmail dot com. Let me know what you love about the show. Let me know what you don't love about the show and let me know what you would like to see in the future. I absolutely would love to hear from you. I've also got open office hours that I will be hosting and you can register by going to bitterly dot com forward, slash a d. S o h. I look forward to hearing from you all and look forward to seeing you in the office hours. Let's get back to the episode. [00:32:39] I love that you mentioned in the attitude section, the growth mindset. How do we demonstrate our growth mindset in the interview process? [00:32:50] You point and this is something also true. I'm so glad you brought this up because it's the growth mindset area has expanded as to what it covers and what there's permission for. And it really depends as well on the evolution of a company, the Harp consciousness of them. So growth mindset, essentially, if we were going to boil it down, means that do I have the grit when tested in my life and I fall flat on my face to stand up and walk through what the test is, or even if I get run over to get up, dust myself off and move forward again. And so some companies that are very deep into this will look for tonsorial. You failed and they want to know that you failed. You fell flat on your face and you got up and you kept going, because if you're working hard, you may perhaps you will like. Fail somewhere in your job, and they want to know how quickly and how well you can get past it, but growth mindset also has a lot to do with grit. When we're tested, when we're pushed to the edge, some people can have a boss, a customer, something that tested them. Some people might start down an accounting path and say, no, I want to be an engineer. [00:34:02] They have to confront something in my slow growth mindset is really about showing that you have the ability to have introspection and grow, but also have the grit to walk through things and folks that have never been tested or are trying to just look really good. Sometimes they're not able to go within and call forth an experience that's authentic. And so you don't it's you know, it's something that you don't want to be untruthful about. You need to pick out two or three things that you can say, hey, I was tested here and this is what I did and this is how I walk through it. And that looks to show, too, that you're always willing to grow. You don't let the outer circumstances determine you, but you decide who you are, no matter what happens. [00:34:53] I love that, Carol. The expert growth mindset. I wish I had been introduced that back when I was a kid and I didn't come across from work until well into my 30s, mid thirties, and I've become such a different person because of it. And yet it is the belief that just you can figure anything out with enough time. You can figure out what you have to do. And at the end of the day, like all of your efforts, they're actually going to be rewarded with the skills. You'll learn something, you'll get better. You're not just who you are. You're just you're not your shoe size. Right? You can grow and you can change. Yeah. So that can definitely have right on my bookshelf here, along with grit on the lowest possible shelf so that whatever my son learns how to read, he just go pick them up properly and they're easy access for him. [00:35:46] That's great. I love the thought process too. And she's amazing in writing that book. And it's also very important to like from a process standpoint when we have a great attitude and we're willing to grow, they're going to look at your processes of creativity around growth, around breaking through things. So the attitude and the processes and they tend to touch up against each other and marry each other if that makes sense and the processes to figure things out. I had a gentleman, a senior person in beauts one time hire a guy with a bachelors degree over a PhD and he tells the story. And we were speaking at all. And I was the keynote there and he came and spoke. And what he spoke about specifically was that this person built a car one summer in high school and just that's what they did in the creativity, the commitment, the tenacity impressed them so much that they said, wow, that's amazing. So as we move towards our processes on how we got to our results, it's important. Anything where we've been creative or overachieved. I had another gentleman get into the Berkeley out. California do amazingly well, but he had had an awful head injury and in skateboarding and he had to learn everything from starting in. And his mom had been coaching him and work with him. [00:37:19] And he ended up doing amazing at Berkeley. He got an Amazon internship, then he got a Facebook internship. And now we just got the big job offer and face when you graduate. So but the thing is that one of his creative areas is in high school. He built a key FOB business, you know, like kind of fun key fobs for people. And he got it going and he thought it was nothing. But he actually made it very successful. And so he had a result and creativity early on that allowed them to say, hey, and he was coaching all his friends and he didn't get any results. But when we really pulled it down and his mom encouraged me to work with him for some time, he had many results. And then he also had many processes and a lot of creativity and no real experience in the work world. But he was able to make distinctions about himself to get Berkeley and Amazon and Facebook. And now he's the vice president of a club that Jeff Bezos was actually in. And he I've coached him on public speaking for that and how to make an impact. So if you can come back from that head injury and can see the things and what he's done, it shows us that anybody can really do anything if they're determined. [00:38:33] It's a great story, and I think that also kind of talks about something much larger, I think, at least from my perspective, that you're going for a job, for a particular role. It's assumed that on a technical level that you can control C, control V between candidates and copy and paste the technical candidates, because that's what it takes for the game. That's what people think. He can get past the entire phone screen and into that room. Right. And it's these other things that separate things like these creative activities, extracurricular activities that you do that will help separate you from your competition. Is that right? [00:39:17] Yes, definitely. And and that's a very strong piece of it, because what they want to know, what makes you work harder, be more creative. [00:39:27] One thing that he also did, which was just a for him, is when they were assigned a problem in college or high school, a lot of people would be like, oh, I don't want to work on this. And they brushed it off. He'd say, no, I want to solve this. And he stayed and did those things. So being able to show where you went over, above and beyond and all these areas is really key, but also to, I think, someone who can show from a perspective what their mindset is and how they approach those things is just supercute. Absolutely. And I will say technical skills, people talk about those in their results sometimes or in their processes to say have reached this level or I've done that or I've done that. There's usually a point where they're tested and sometimes that's before they even get the formal interview. [00:40:16] So what they're really looking for, though, in those extra added things is, is this person going to work harder? Are they going to take on things or are they going to run up hills to learn? Do they have a passion for learning or are they just going to come in and sit in here and do the job? So all the ways you could show were you did more were more creative, even if you didn't go to Harvard. That's fine. Or if you went to I've had people that have gone to very simple schools, but they can show how much more tenacious and active they were and they may have hit their stride at 20. So they didn't get into the best schools. But when they really stepped on the pedal, they sometimes get the job over the big strong degrees as well. [00:40:57] And when it comes to process, is there a framework that we can use to explain our results, that star format as a popular way to keep that? Where does that fit into this great point? [00:41:10] So so there's a reason just to go back for one second, the results are first because you want to catch their attention and blow them away and have them say, oh, my God, I've got a real person here sitting and I can see a string shown throughout their life of performance. So I don't have to worry about if they're going to perform, then I feel their energy and attitude. But process process is very important because, you know, as we weave that together, we want to give processes that relate to our actual results and then on the front end, because we want to get their attention and process it first to catch their attention. The second part of process would be the creativity piece. So if I was interviewing, I would say developed that referral program, did more outreach. We did nine hundred percent more outreach than any other recruiting group has ever done, rebranded the message in such a way to hit all these areas. And our response rate went up by seventy eight percent. Also made relationships with eight top VPs in the industry, got them into lunch and speaking at a talk show, we could probe them about them and their people. So I would talk about my processes very specific to the job they were hiring me for. But then I would say I also have specially designed very creative employee referral programs, really upping resumes and hires by about five hundred percent, starting with Oracle and with every company. Since then, it's been between five hundred and one thousand percent. So I enjoy doing that. I can show you how to do that here. So but last thing in my processes, one thing that's very important is. I say to people here, normally the first one in and the last one to go, I make more phone calls, I build more relationships, I'm more energetic and have more activity than my peers. So that's not a specific process. But I like to remind them that I like to work and I love the folks around me. [00:43:15] So that's the first part of the framework. That's the results. Energy attitude process. That's the weak part of the rich part. That's the relationships, the interviewer closing and humanity. Walk us through which part of the framework. [00:43:32] Yes, absolutely. So relationships, people want to know, can you make a new relationship and how you make a new relationship and quickly, because in business or engineering or science, you have to be able to interact with people unless they've got you sequestered in a room back somewhere and you're so smart that teachers leave you there, most times you're going to need something or you're going to need different pieces. So they want to know how do you make relationships immediately with new people? They also want to know they want to hear a couple of examples of long term relationships because they want to know that you don't just make a relationship and then burn it out that you can actually sustain because that will show them you can sustain there. And then lastly, I see this jokingly in the book, and I know we had connected and the write up about this is can you play nicely with others? And sometimes people joke and say, can you play nice with the other kids? This is so important because if you have results and energy and seem to have a great attitude and you know your processes, but you're upsetting everybody around you because you have either abrasive personality or you're getting entangling over things with everybody all the time, the manager is going to want to know that before they hire you. So by so giving these relationships pieces helps reinforce that you're not that person, because nowadays they're sort of a no jerk rule and a lot of companies and it's become strict. [00:45:03] So if you don't get along with others, no matter how brilliant you are, they'll show you the door because they want to have a culture and community and people's rights. So I even know some folks that are difficult personalities. They like to get in there with people and debate, and that's fine. But it's not what you do. It's how you do it. So long term relationships, can you make short term relationships? Can you give two examples of each quickly? So I would simply say I enjoy making relationships with my coworkers. I often bring in Bobby, who I've known for twenty six years, who is an incredible recruiting executive. He'll come and get to talk to some of my people on the teams. Even one of my teachers from college loves all the stuff we're doing in technology here at Oracle, so they might stop in. And I've known them for ten years and twenty six years and beyond. That's how I make relationships with new people, is I really listen to them. I focus in on who they are. I spend time doing nonreactive listening, not thinking about what I'm going to say, but really hearing them. Once I've heard some of that, I repeat it back to them and I look to speak to areas that are key, critical and important to them. [00:46:11] I listen to them as a person and a professional. Such a connection and a trust is made in a report. And then from that point, do I begin to guide a relationship and see where it's going to go? So if I'm going really fast, I might give an example of a recent relationship I made. I just met the president of Finality, so I'm on an elevator, was able to speak for a few minutes, connect to about him and his kids. Before I knew it, he wanted me to coach his kids and spend time. I'm going over to the house for dinner next Sunday. So examples are also good. The start method, the only thing some of these are outdated, but they also don't predict the reaction in the person's nervous system. So if I can just up to where we are, the questions behind the questions are unconscious. So when you're stating your results, what you're really doing is you're answering the unconscious question of, oh, my God, how do I know this person is going to perform for me? And the only way they can know that is if they feel and can get their arms around that. You have had results at some level throughout your life consistently, not just once in a while. Also energy. [00:47:24] The question beyond that question is yes, they get awoken from it, but can they have the energy to stick in here and do the job and make connections with other people? [00:47:34] Energy is such a big part of things nowadays. If you go in and you're like, how you doing? You know, people are going to be like, is he going to make it through this? Be able to make it to the first three months know? [00:47:45] So attitude is so important because if you're banging someone else or you're talking about things, you shouldn't be or you don't show a great attitude of. Positivity, they immediately associate that with what's going to happen on the job and one of the biggest fears for hiring managers after they feel confident in you. And they feel you have results and a process is really before that, too, is what's your attitude? Are you going to get along with others? And that moves right towards relationships. So relationships. The biggest thing is this guy has everything I need. This woman has everything I need. Oh, no. Are they going to be a pain in the ass with all my employees and get in arguments or fights with everybody? I get they have all this, but I don't understand how they do a relationship. I don't get a good sense or feeling that of how they develop these things. So what you're in essence doing is you're giving them volunteering, truthful facts about what they would spend all their trying to figure out. Normally those things, they might get three of them done possibly for and not always to their total satisfaction. [00:48:56] So you're giving them statements they can remember consciously, but you're answering those unconscious questions. So once again, are they going to perform for me? Will they have the energy to hang in there? And are they going to light up the room to make connections with others? Are they going to have a positivity about them and a great attitude? Are they being in other people? Because if they are, they're going to bang me about who I am as their boss processes. Do I understand how they got to these results and how they work? Because if I don't, I'm going to get nervous because I want to know how my employees do what they do. And I don't feel a familiarity with them, even though they seem like a superstar, I just don't know how they get to it. So answering these unconscious fears and questions without them even knowing you're answering them, you're really doing them a favor, because most managers haven't been trained, but some are getting trained very quickly. The rich science in a reversal of what I do and they're looking for the the next go to interviewing them. [00:49:55] So if you've made an impact on them, that you have results, process relationships, you bring energy and a great attitude, then you have permission to have the fortitude to turn it around and interview them and ask them some intelligent questions. [00:50:08] And I know you would ask me in our interaction as we were preparing what are intelligent questions to ask. So sometimes you don't want to ask a question that's obvious that you should have found necessarily on the website. However, what you and you always want to ask a positive question, because the interview process, you're trying to get positive responses out of people. You're not trying to look like the mastermind. You don't want to be arrogant in this. [00:50:34] You have to ask a question that gets them excited. So a great question to ask people is pretty. I've seen a lot of great things in the website. You've been here for three years. What's something that's great about this company that I wouldn't find on the website and nobody could have told me about? And I ask you that and you start saying what's great? And then you can also compliment someone on your questions and say what an incredible Data science background you have. You must get phone calls to go to other places fairly often. What makes you stay here and how would you share that with me? About why I should be here? And so you're complimenting someone, but you're also getting to make positive associations. And it's sort of rather than a power push statement, it's more of a chance to where you're getting more intimate, you're drawing in a little closer to them. You're tonality might change and you're allowing them to let you see into them and volunteer. [00:51:33] So you're creating intimacy. You're asking questions, creative, thoughtful questions. You're not busting their chops. In a way. Some people will say, oh, I saw you had bad earnings four quarters ago. What's that about? You know, and it's like people want to be like there's a flavor to everything. So there'll be a time you can ask those questions after you're hired or you can find that answer before you get in the door. If it's something that's important, the next piece is closing them. So in interviewing them, if everything's gone well and you ask a couple of good questions. If I do, it's a Harp. You know, I feel like we've had some great time today and I was able to go over my results. So I get to them also my relationships. It's feels like there's a lot that I could do it at your organization. If you were to hire me, where would you focus me at first as far as projects are concerned? And so that's the beginning of a closing process. And it's like because I want you I want to know if you're actually already beginning to see in your mind what you're going to do with Evan as you bring him in as the next data scientist there on your team. So I want to know if you're already there and if you say, well, Evan, yeah, I see I've got two analysts and my engineers working on this project over here. I put your. Here for two months, then what have you learned with this person? [00:52:58] Great. You're already there and you're having the experience. Sometimes, as I ask that question, I'll make three statements to I'll say really look like I could help out in the recruiting of technical architects along with salespeople, in that you're having trouble with mid-market salespeople and quantifying them and getting them to the table. That's something I do very well. Where would you focus me from a starting standpoint, though, if you were to bring you on board? You. So I can also state a positive speaking to where I can add value, reinforcing that and ask a question out of it. So in some ways we're hypnotizing them about what it is we're focusing on and where we want their focus to be. So the second part really of interview them is if you say, yeah, and I see you over here and you'd be doing this, and then I would say, Harp, do you see yourself the next offering me the job, giving me the opportunity to come aboard? And this is a hard question sometimes that it's meant to shake people up a little bit. It's it's it's a question that a top salesperson or a CEO would ask when they CEO says, are you going to give me 20 million or business Harp for your Data sentence? And then they stop. [00:54:16] And whoever speaks first, they always say sales loses. But you want to put people on the spot in a general way, but in an accurate way. You want to ask the question and never keep talking. You don't want to answer for them. You don't want to. Do you just want to ask them because you want to know them before you walk out if they hit every button. And it's great if they say, well, I love what you've done, but you have to talk to some more people or I need to speak with my team first before we decide on an offer. Then I would say. OK, I need to probe deeper, I would say Harp, is there any areas I can cover more deeply or anything I can answer for you that you're concerned about that I didn't already related to my background and I see the very warm, welcoming tone. It's not the same tone as when I'm delivering them and pushing energy towards them. I'm creating a space of intimacy and connection and closeness so that they can open up. [00:55:13] And so a lot of times someone will say when given permission would say, you know, I felt like you hadn't done anything over on the consulting end of things. And we're going to have 30 openings there come December. And I know it's sales right now, but I'm concerned would you be able to handle those? And I can then say, well, Harpreet, actually at Oracle, I would get 80 percent sales hiring. But when that would be filled, I'd focus on the consulting teams. And I broke three records there. I also did the same thing at Siebel Systems and S.A.G. and three of the unicorn. And then you might say, oh, well, you did. So I'd handle that concern. Then I would say, are there any other things? You know, I'm glad I was able to handle that for you, make them comfortable and sharing their concerns, because sometimes it's something that you can address accurately and honestly. If they say that concerning you don't know something. I don't know that. But I've learned these two things very quickly that were either similar to it or I'm a very fast learner and much faster than my peers. That was in my last two performance reviews. So the closing them in, moving from interviewing them to closing them is a process of making statements and probing them, but then asking for the job, because in some companies now they want you to be able to ask for the things you need from a customer, from your coworkers. [00:56:38] If you don't ask for the job, even if you've done everything else right at Oracle, they will give it to you. They because they say you don't have the courage to ask for the job. I've had them walk out of interviews and many companies say, hey, you did everything right. I loved you. You're a great candidate, but I'm not hiring. And I'd say, why you they he didn't ask me for the job. He doesn't want it bad enough. He doesn't have the courage to actually put me on the spot now. Engineering that a scientist role, it's a different task. It's a gentle ask, its probing and then saying, hey, we've really connected Harp would you see yourself putting me forward for an offer with the company? Do you feel good about that? It's not a very hard direct. Are you going to give me the job? So and then if you've closed. Well, I've had people, including myself, use the science because it hits in a very specific order. Everything that hiring manager needs to know in order to say, yes, if you've done that right, you might finish our interview within thirty five to forty five minutes. And it leaves you with time where the managers either not a people pleaser, they're going to say thanks for coming in. All right. [00:57:52] I got to go. We'll be in touch soon. They're going to send you information about the offer or they're going to say, well, we've got some extra time. So I hear you like, what do you like to do? Or so this is a time where it's another opportunity to make a connection with someone. Sometimes Harp people do this. In the beginning, they'll say, hey, tell me about you. What's it like in Canada where you live? Do you do any outside sports? I have a friend from college that lives right up there too. And this is what she does, use that five minutes, connect with them in a way, or if you have a person in common. But once again, you want to get right to your results. Once you have that connection time. If you have time left at the end, they may want to connect with you. You want to use that time wisely, maybe look at pictures on their desk sometimes the interview in a conference room. So you have to give them an open ended question of what do you like to do? What is the team like to do when we're not working any activities? One thing that's so important to be careful. Look, though, I had a guy come out of an interview with a senior vice president one time I thought I was going to get the job and SVP said, no, I'm not hiring. [00:58:58] And I said, well, why? And he said, well, he told me he was an expert in Italian after he saw the picture of my villa hanging on the wall that I own in Italy. And I said, oh, really? And I began to speak to him in Italian. And he's really only a big plus. And so that means he's going to tell my customers that he's an expert and when he really is and that he's done his homework, that's how funky these things can get. So never say you're an expert unless you are. Don't even quantify your abilities. Just be a curiosity seeker and a connector. It's not a point in the connection time where you want to try to impress show expertize or it's something even if you get talking about a club or something you do as an interest. If you're the leader, I would say, well, I love that so much. Actually represent a club locally. And you don't say, oh, I've been the leader of this club for ten years and I'm the best that you're selling has already taken place. This is just about human connection, gentleness and having them feel a comfort level with you. So if you've done that, you've used the rich science as it used to be used. And if you feel it's valuable, then it can run through how I would interview with it. [01:00:13] But I think that the biggest thing people sometimes only do half way or fail to do is they don't write down ten results from the last five or ten years. Then they don't write down seven or eight processes. They don't practice getting their energy and their attitude going well. They don't write down two or three relationships, two long ones, one quick one. They don't think about good questions that they're going to ask. They don't practice closing and closing. So important to practice because first time we do it, it's a nerve wracking thing. It's like you're asking for the sale or asking someone out on the day and you put them on the spot. So it's good to practice with possibly friends or family, but it's also great to practice with someone you don't know that well or practicing in the mirror. So practice makes perfect to do these things well, practicing three to five times. But if you can do your ten times, doing all this might take you two hours. But if you pay two hundred grand for an education or even if you paid one hundred or you just lost the job and or you want to make an extra 20 grand two hours, it's a very small investment of preparation practice. And if you do two and a half or three, I've seen it over and over again. You're going to be a pro. [01:01:29] That's it. Yeah, it's a great framework. And you have a mentor at the U.S. Supreme. We've got over twenty five hundred mentees and their interviews are very technical and it's just part of the career path and. Students tend to just always match with governments, tend to always just focus on what questions to ask, what kind of questions we ask, but that's not it. That's not all there is. There's way more to it. And they don't hire just a technical skill. They hire an actual person type person. And one thing that I see happen over and over, the sentiment I get from from people is they feel like that the interview is something that is happening to them. Right, I give an interview. Something has happened to me, but no man put in the work and be a part of the process instead of just having it happen to take control of the situation as much as he can. [01:02:39] Such a great point that I've had team people try to memorize fifteen hundred two thousand questions that they might get asked and they're being reactionary and nervous and that a woman that went to Harvard did everything right, graduated, couldn't get a job. And I met with her, gave her my book and I spent an hour and a half. I knew some of the newer Khordad and she ended up getting a job with McKinsey that same week. And they called her and offered a job on the way home from the interview. So she took all of it and kind of use this to go on the offensive. And there will be technical questions. But as long as you get out all your communication, then you will put it on their nervous system, everything they need to know. So wherever the questions go, answer them, walk with them. [01:03:29] If you know something it's been put, part of your results might also be I've earned this, this and this from a technical standpoint. And I have achieved this. And I've got this many hours and I have this many projects in here that you can look at. [01:03:44] I feel like I'm 20 percent ahead of my peers that I know of. You can quantify that with a percentage. So results in ten questions. Normally a hiring manager will have questions, but if they see it on the resume and they get to ask if you have them there, really, you know, a lot of times they drill with tech questions endlessly. If you don't provide anywhere for the interview to go, if you don't lead. So at least if you lead and you present and you have the rich science, you'll make an impact on them, on their nervous system. They will feel you're better and more. And you might spend half of your time answering technical questions or other things. So it's just once again, proactive. The other thing is from a results and process standpoint, if you know certain technologies are part of things, you may include those in your results, what you've done with them, and also include them in your processes and creativity. I know we're doing these four things. You're in Data science. I want to tell you, I've done 18 projects related to these four, and they were this, this, this and this. And here's a process that I did to get my data on how I run. And so sometimes even with technical questions, rather than being reactive and jumping around, you can go on proactive and try to implant that nervous system so you spend less time. [01:05:06] So doing that sort of some interview process typically has kind of like a flow of questions. And in terms of how it goes from telling yourself, walking with your resume and then it kind of unfolds throughout that kind of very organic process. How do we make sure that we're able to hit all the points in the formula? Is it are we trying to hit every point with each question we're being asked? Or is it kind of like the interview goes in phases? How do we time this with the process? [01:05:43] I'm so glad that that's so important. And so when someone says, tell me about yourself, why are you attracted to our company about your background? If we can get in a statement of results in our processes, communicated to them with energy and enthusiasm, like a great attitude, then we've covered really about 60 percent of what we need to get out there, because results and processes are the deepest things. [01:06:16] Relationships are much shorter. So often I tell people, cover your results and your processes. These are my results, Harp. This is what I've done. Boom, here, boom, here, boom here. If you hit them with enough, that's truthful. If it's ten, you're going to be like, oh my God, OK, great that you might even start to smile then the processes and then stop. Give them that moment to ask a question. Sometimes they'll ask a question related to it. Sometimes they'll say, Oh my God, that's great. Well, we're doing a lot of data science stuff here. Have they told you about it? Yes, they have. I've heard great things from Kathy and Bobby. And I just want you to know that you can make great relationships. That's how I found out about this job. I have three or four very long term ones from school, this professor, and he's actually doing a lot with machine learning right now. And I've made relationships with two people just spontaneously through my travels during my internship in the last few months. This person here, that person there. So you can answer a question, but then you slide right into the next part of the. Peace. So you want to get past relationships if you can, and that way you're probably 70 percent there and then you don't want to interview them right away because you might be 10, 15 minutes into the interview. But a lot of times they will go back because you directed it. And sometimes I've had people in technical interviews say I only got to ask one technical question. [01:07:48] They were back to my results and how I did this and how I distinguish myself from college. And they want to know how I did that. So they wanted to know more about my processes. I find that once, especially in scientific interviews, once people know that you have results or distinctions, you can quantify your performance to them because it's not often done right. People to say, hey, I've done this, I'm here, let's talk. They often get very curious about your process because that's what people do often in engineering and technology. They want to know how did it come together? How did you do it? How did you make it? How was it broken? And you fixed it. So I'm getting results processes in relationship. So a very natural place for people to go is to your processes and maybe one of your results or two of them. So that's why it's so important to get those out first. If you've done that in your 10, 15 minutes, then they might take up the next 20 minutes, too. They might start if you hit enough buttons in their nervous system about things that they actually are looking for, need to know before they get a chance to ask it. I've had people say fifteen minutes and they started selling me on the company and telling me about the group because you've alleviated all these things that they don't even know. [01:09:03] You believe it by giving them factual information on the product so they might tell you about a trip. They're going on something we did the team, the project, they might tell you about them. So how things go with it. But there's a point where at about the thirty five minute mark, if they take up 15, 20 minutes, suddenly you want to bring it back to interviewing them and saying, gee, that's great information. Harp, I really appreciate that. You know, tell me about this amazing company. I love the culture where the culture sounds. Why do you stay. You must get phone calls because of your experience now with even better money, what's made you stick in there? [01:09:38] So bring it to interviewing them, then relating it back to all the connection you made over their questions and what you shared and you begin to probe and pretty close and then close them. [01:09:49] So if someone feels like you're handling things and they feel connected with you, sometimes they can go on and on and they could go right up to the end of the interview. And you don't get to do your interview them, close them and then humanity connection. [01:10:03] Yeah. Thank you so much for getting into detail on that respect formula. You guys get an opportunity to get on audible, get it on audible if you like. Audio book possible on Amazon. That is a great formula. I want to get into another concept. You talk about your book, which I thought was really interesting. I've seen it happen in interviews and maybe in my earlier days I would probably want to give myself a subtle difference. So what is this subtle defiance and how do we prevent ourselves from being suddenly the kind? [01:10:38] Great question. [01:10:39] The biggest thing about subtle defiance is are there areas within us that are running us? That we don't know we're taking over, you know, we're being defiant or we're saying subtlely either I'm not going to go there or subtlely kind of, hey, screw you. Or the biggest thing about subtle defiance is if I was being defiant and sometimes when we have a very smart mindset, we can be defiant. Someone says, well, this is blue. Oh, no, it's orange. You know, we want to kind of get into debates. And so but subtle defiance is really about sabotaging things without knowing it in a way to subtle defiance is what is getting in the way of our delivery to someone or our process or our presentation where we actually don't know ourselves well enough that we're saying something to them directly or indirectly or without knowing it. And we can certainly be defined sabotage our process. And so there's a lot of ways that that happens. But I was going to ask you, I know that one, Krapf. [01:11:47] You tell me about where you either sorta used it or you noticed it before, because I would love to have your example if I could never seen it in candidates when I asked them about their projects or ask about work that they've done. And they're not really giving me the information that I want to hear or they're not digging deep into the kind of hesitant like, oh, yeah, we just project them and being defined. And I guess I'm perceiving it as defiance, but they're just not giving me the full scope like it's on your resume and you've got it there. You should never think that one thing and that. That's correct. All right. Well, now I've got to start quizzing you on all sorts of technical stuff now. So that would be the difference on my part. I guess it's like very well, I can tell you about the project, so I'm just giving you a verbal exam. [01:12:40] Yes. Yes. That's such a great point. And and I'm glad you mentioned that to be because I was thinking of that as well in a very similar way, is that the subtle difference is that I'm not going to participate fully or I'm not going to listen to what others I'm going to do it my way. And sometimes it can be an arrogance, sometimes it can be a fear where they're just really not getting it that you're saying, hey, I want details, bring me step by step. And sometimes they don't they weren't that good with that project and they didn't do it deeply as they said they would. Sometimes people, though, can't describe it. They're not used to describe it. [01:13:24] So that's why you as the candidate have to look at areas where you might not want to get descriptive or talk about or go on. And you have to be ready to quantify every little piece of those and not be defiant. So you want to really be aware of where you're not saying and I hate to use this term, but we're not having sort of a subtle screw you to people like, hey, I'm not going to do that. [01:13:51] I won't go there or and it's something that can be in any candidate. [01:13:58] And sometimes people don't want to be pushed or probed, too. So it's important to know yourself is well, there's some people I know that have sort of a flippant personality or they might say something or know they don't want to go there. So defiance is something ticking over that you almost don't even see that's blocking you from being and giving what you should be doing it. So we know we're defiant when we say, oh, I'm not going to do this process that way. I'm not going to sign in there. I'm not going to do that. Yeah, I know I'm doing fine. [01:14:30] But I always ask people if your defiance, where you being subtly defiant, where you're actually being defiant and people don't know or they may know, but only really, you know that you're being defiant or you're not giving the answer or you're saying subtly, screw you. [01:14:47] So that's something where you can have a great interview. But when you push someone, if they're suddenly defiant and you don't like to go deep or go there, people can feel like you're actually really verbally saying to them, you don't matter or screw you or I'm not going to participate. So that's why it's really important when we talk about the inner landscape, is to get to know your emotional natures, to alleviate that defiance. And, you know, it's interesting, many of my best buddies is engineers or scientists and very smart people, technical people. One of the biggest things in personal growth we've given them is the challenge. You know, all this outside and you could give a course on things that I couldn't even understand what you're speaking about in recruiting. But what about this inner landscape? You know you enough to master this ship. And you know what's interesting, too, I just want to answer that is sometimes I find that people that don't do the inner journey, that's. Part of the reason I did the witness code about practices and visualization and eliminating fear and going very deep on these things is that all the people that are very analytically smart, that they're not happy or they're not joyful or they can't find that inner freedom and it takes it's not wrong. [01:16:03] Many folks who don't have what it takes work just like anything else. What if you want to get in shape, if you want to learn a new formula or coding. And so once again, but defiance, too subtle defiance, can interfere with effort, whether it's to answer a question you to work on our inner landscape, we can suddenly be saying, screw you, I'm not going to go learn my inner landscape or visualize things. So all I can say is whatever we leave out, the process in becoming fully vetted in all these areas will probably affect us in some way. So if we leave out 10 percent of the research science, you don't visualize or we get the fine. And I don't need to do this. I'm not going to do that. That's just going to take our chances down each area, probably 10 percent of what we do. So it would be kind of like doing the code for something and leaving a piece out. [01:16:56] Thank you very much for clarifying that, we appreciate it. I want to get into the four types of hiring managers that we look for and a job interview. Can you briefly describe their personas and how do we know which one we're dealing with? [01:17:14] Sure, absolutely. And you listed them under a certain order. Which one was your first? Because I want to. [01:17:23] So I've got the power trigger and then the defensive culture method man. The rogue agent. [01:17:31] Ok, that's what I thought. Yes. I love that you have, though, from this book, and that's very important to it. So the power trip is usually coming from fear. [01:17:43] Their statements are about ego, and I'm not sure either because that's just how I get and deliver myself or it's out of fear that I want to prove to you that I matter. So there's going to be some sort of power in the interview. They're going to try to just take it over and push you and grill you and grind you and make you squirm in your seat and see how you react. So the power trip for the unconscious question that they need answered is that you respect them and that you adhere to some of their expertize. And so with the power trip, often I might say enough that I could ever see you being that we're going to give a great way and not speaking in an interview. But if I can do it as an example, if I might say Harp, jeez, I really love what you've done and for say I love what you've done. But then I would say at some point within my first few sentences, only you would know about this and kind of what's happening here, Harpreet. But my results as they relate to your world and what you're doing or these so first I give the power over to invalidate you that I respect you because what are you trying to get through your power to respect what's driving that respect, either fear or have it on how you measure yourself. [01:19:09] So if I let you know that I respect you and I'm moved by what you've done, not in a kiss, but way are going on and on and running down a list, you say, well, it's impressive what you've done and and then saying, well, only you would know how this relates to here and what's kind of happening here. But I thought if it's OK with you, I might share some of my results and you can even ask a question or you can just see my results or this. And you may need to do that three, four or five, six times throughout that process, validate their thought authority. Only you would know, because technically a power trip or a lot of times they think only they do know or for power's purposes, they have to be the smartest person in the room. That makes sense. [01:19:57] Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Let's do one more thing and then we'll jump into our final question and then the the random, as I call it, and the next one I want to talk about the next one. The first one is one that I think we might see a lot in Data science, and that is the method of math. [01:20:18] Yes, yes, so the method man can get so attached to the methods of things and the processes of things that they don't get to really look at you and know you as a person and hear your results, they're just measuring everything by methods and what's happening. What have you done and how do you quantify that somehow? Did you take this piece of information apart and on in? The biggest thing with them is that it's really important to connect with them, but then begin to lead them. So they're not always something that you have to validate and say only you would know where I respect you. But listening to them maybe saying you put together a great group and a great team here, I love what I've heard about. Oh, great. Thank you so much. The Method Man doesn't get complimented that much. They're just always scrambling, putting Data together, doing things. So the general compliment about them and the group, the method man to reason it's important to compliment the group on what they've done is sometimes they don't feel that they can touch people or connect with people. They're just doing methods. And so what do they do when it's time to interview? They evaluate you based on methods. They try to improve things or method. So. [01:21:33] Ability to connect with them, with them. Into your results and a method man, if you validate them first and give them a compliment, then you bring them into results. [01:21:46] They then start to really attach to your results and get into your results with you in the funny thing about a method man, as they may start to like actually get emotional as you have your results, your processes, because you've created a safe place for them to actually go stand with you in those. And they're one of the only ones that you can win over sometimes very quickly if you compliment them. And then just because you're very prepared, if you can quantify things the way the science is done, because everything is quantifying methods aligned, organize your that. [01:22:25] So. Final question for you. Jumping to a random round one hundred years in the future and what do you want to be remembered for? [01:22:35] So what do you want to be remembered for? First and foremost is the guy who created the first science around interviewing that gave a predictable outcome for folks who used it. So far that has happened really beyond that, the dream goal is to try to create long lasting change for people in their inner universe and in their habits and in how they change and stay changed over time because a lot of people try to change. But I'm working on a thing now as part of my graduate school stuff, but I'm back to just covering every area person we need to be broken into in order to fully make a change into their best, really strongest enlightened self that would have an interview universe mastered and the master there, how do you actually love it? [01:23:27] And if you get a book out around that topic, I'll be happy to have you back on the show to talk about. [01:23:32] I would love that. Absolutely. [01:23:35] So jump into the random room here with the first question. What do you believe that other people think is crazy? [01:23:43] You know, I believe that there's an invisible intelligence running through all this that is weightless. [01:23:52] And I believe that energy through this energy, through mastering it, visualizing and capturing it, that we can actually create miracles in the universe and actually predict things. And I think a lot of people think that that's crazy. They don't think there's anything greater than us. And I see that because I've seen it and I've tried it and I've even have some of my very skeptical friends that were highly smart, try it with exercises for themselves over time. And they began creating relationships or results. [01:24:29] Were Interpeace so well that actually read the book know that I really enjoyed having this author on the show as well. The serendipity mindset. Yes. [01:24:43] The art and science of good luck. I think you'll enjoy this book. It's really probably about 50 or 60 books this year. And this is probably. Top three favorite come with you. [01:24:58] That's amazing. I had heard on that one and I will get that one. I love it. [01:25:03] If you could have a billboard placed anywhere, what would you put on it? [01:25:09] Think a lot about that today, perhaps the first thing would be gone, the statement be the change you wish to see in the world, because we have to call people back towards causal action of what they're causing in every moment and being it rather than looking for an ounce of it. [01:25:31] If there was one question, you wouldn't not ask the interviewer, what was the one question that I would not ask the interviewer? [01:25:42] Right. [01:25:42] So that you would to not ask, I guess the one that you have to like, why would you not ask that question? [01:25:48] Right. I wouldn't not ask a single question, so would not ask me I would say that's a you know, I think that we can ask a lot of things, but. I would say if I'm answering this correctly, you know, asking them about their biggest failure, so I think we would stay away from that. But if you create intimacy with someone, you can say, you know what, if you work through especially if they give you a challenge or question or mindset. So but I would be very careful when you're asked if you've created the intimacy, they've asked you the same. [01:26:32] What's the strangest question you have heard an interviewer ask in an interview? Yes. Yes. [01:26:40] Senior vice president of sales asked someone. [01:26:43] He said to this woman, Are you a beer, cheese and Goresh person or a champagne? And Rolls Royce and I almost fell over the guy. I was in there with a few others. And so that was the strangest one I've seen happen or that what does that have to do with it? [01:27:06] That's an interesting one. Yeah. What's the strangest question you have heard and interviewee ask in an interview? [01:27:16] Strangest question, I would say is they really there are a few that were just one person asked me, how do you think I show up in person? Give me some feedback. At a point where I barely knew this person. I think that was a strange one. I think another strange one was we used at the beginning of the interview. Were you still my parking ticket before we get started? I don't know. But yeah, I mean, I I've I've seen some things, but I think the strangest thing really around questions are not always the questions, but when people start to make statements and tell me things that I have no business knowing it, maybe they feel close to me and I try to make it very sincere, but then I try to open people up. Yeah, it's more than questions, statements, some strange statements. [01:28:18] What are you reading right now? [01:28:20] So right now, it's interesting you should ask that because I went back to read Unlimited Power Again by Tony Robbins and I was very impressed with that. But I'm actually rereading three books. One is The Different run by Scott PAC Community making an amazing book. Also, he wrote a book, The Road Less Traveled and is further along the road, less traveled. But the book, What Return Can I Make? [01:28:49] And then beyond that, I'm reading books, book Seat of the Soul right now, so which I had started to read many years ago. [01:28:59] So I'm kind of going back. [01:29:00] Pack is an amazing thinker and I'm using it in some of my teachers, some of his responses. So that's where I am right now to check that out. So I got everything going on. I go to random question generator. Are you down for this or. Cool. Let's see. This will be a couple of questions from here. Pull me up right now. All right. Random question, generator in effect. [01:29:28] What talent would you show up in a talent show? [01:29:32] I would say my ability to public speak so I can play some guitar can't sing that well, but yeah, so public speech somehow to get the audience all pull together. [01:29:44] And what have you created that you're most proud of? [01:29:48] The relationships I have with my children, the openness and the love and the honesty and the humor. We have fun and it's real and watching them grow. So on another level, if might, Nancy. [01:30:06] And give them to me, I hope we have that same with my kids. I'm sure you will feel it. Who are some of your heroes? [01:30:16] So my heroes, Wayne Dyer is one of my main heroes because he took philosophy, psychology and spirituality and brought it all into a language that anybody could understand and did it in a way that people really like to listen to. In his book, Real Magic, he's since passed. But there is also another one of my heroes, because he really talked about growth and suffering and the importance of the needing to be able to kind of have the discipline to work through things. And he gave it amazing distinctions in his road, less traveled in others. And then I would say Victor Frankl was also one of my heroes. He wrote a man's search for meaning, and he spoke a lot about finding meaning in the suffering, and that's how he survived. But he also spoke a lot about his inner world when everything had been taken from him and how the love he could feel for his wife even after he didn't know if she was dead or alive. And also when a guard action actually hit him with a very heavy object and done something very mean to him. Victor Frankl smiled at the guard in that moment and he changed that guard forever. That guard began sneaking you food after that and was actually became one of his biggest supporters. [01:31:39] So, you know those three books, if you create distinctions about the inner world and humans and they also help me with Scott packs with principles and then Viktor Frankel's, we have to suffer sometimes. Right. [01:31:56] And we learn from our mistakes and even falling flat on our face. That's where most of the growth is. They helped me become a better man. [01:32:07] Thank you for sharing that before you taking those out. So how can people connect with you when they find you online? [01:32:14] Sure, definitely. So on LinkedIn they can connect with me. That's a great place also. I'm on Twitter. The best email is I just have for my first self published book, The Word Interview in the word science at Gmail dot com. That's a great way. That's sort of a personal and business email that stays with me if people want to reach out and ask a question. And so I would love to hear for them. [01:32:41] I'm also on Facebook in different places, but most times people just drop me an email and give me a call at five or eight six three zero six five to one. [01:32:51] So, yes, I mean, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show today. I really appreciate everything you share. I know it's going to help the audience go out there and just crush it with their interviews. Thank you so much. [01:33:05] Thank you so much for the wonderful work you're doing and for my dear friends in the Data science industry. We love a lot. So it's honored that you're doing this.