Sadhna Bokhiria Mixed.mp3

[00:00:00] It's OK to fluctuate and it will fluctuate. You can have good days, you're going to have bad days and how do you handle that? And then what things can you control, such as your attire, et cetera, that would help you be the most authentic version of yourself?

[00:00:40] What's up, everybody? Welcome to the artists of Data Science podcast, the only self development podcast for Data scientists. You're going to learn from and be inspired by the people, ideas and conversations that'll encourage creativity and innovation in yourself so that you can do the same for others. I also host open office hours. You can register to attend by going to bitterly dot com forward, slash a d. S o h. I look forward to seeing you all there. Let's ride this beat out into another awesome episode. And don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave a five star review.

[00:01:34] Our guest today is the vice president of client services at Darling Research Group, where she gets to work with a team of superhuman Data scientists to provide advanced intelligence and in-depth strategic insights to health care executives. More interestingly, though, she's a technologist who specializes in studying the correlation between humor and intelligence. Her interest in humor and laughter was sparked during a night off from working on her dissertation, where she took a break and visited a comedy club. It was a detour that changed the course of her life and shook her world view. And she's since been fascinated with the traits and facts about humor and its effects on both the audience and comedians today. She's here to talk to us about the art form of up comedy and what it could teach us about courage, intelligence and authenticity. So please help me in welcoming our guest today, host of the Leading Voices podcast, Dr. Sadhna Bokhiria, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be on the show today. I appreciate you stopping by.

[00:02:46] Thank you. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here. I appreciate it. It sounds like a very fancy introduction.

[00:02:53] Well, most definitely is very fancy individual. You've done some awesome research. I had a great time digging into your work and what you're about. And I'm super excited to talk to you about stuff you know so well because I think my audience will benefit greatly from it. But before we get into all of that, talk to us about where you grew up and what was it like there?

[00:03:14] Sure. Sure. So I'm in Vegas right now. That's why you see the giant Trump building behind me. I don't know how well you can see it. They told me that they upgraded my room and I was like, oh, OK, great. And I think the actual only difference between my other room and this room is that the view.

[00:03:32] So I'm not sure how much of an upgrade it was, but it was just really funny when I checked in and I saw that. So I grew up in Connecticut. I was born in Hounslow in London, and I grew up in Connecticut. We're pretty much the only Indian people, the town where I'm from, which is called Waterford, Connecticut. And it was kind of interesting. And I think one of the reasons why I became very fascinated with comedians is because they're kind of like the outliers, one group of outliers in our communities. But where I grew up, so I'm what we call meor and so we make up where a very remote group of Indians from Gujarat and India. And to kind of frame it, if you broke it down by population, we make up one one thousandth of the world population. So most likely in the future, mathematically, they guess the guesstimate that we essentially won't exist anymore. We're descendants of 14 specific bloodlines. And so my community is very much obsessed, understandably, with kind of keeping our culture and keeping our bloodlines going. But we migrated to the United States. And what was interesting is you have this kind of extreme fear and tension in that that the first generation children will become too Americanized.

[00:04:54] It's a very common theme I'm sure you're familiar with as an Indian yourself. So it was interesting for me because I always felt like I didn't quite fit in or belong. So in Connecticut, all the American people would see me as a non Caucasian or like a brown person. But within my family, it was like I don't spend time with American people. You're going to become too American. Or if I did anything American at all, it was like you're you're too American or to American. Later, I went to boarding school in Bungeni, which is in South India, and immediately I thought I would fit in there as an Indian, but no way. It was very much you are American. So in India I'm too American. And in the US it's it's like I'm too Indian, but not Indian enough within my own community. So it's been very interesting because it's that dichotomy of identity. And I think that's one of the reasons why I'm really, really interested in the way in which identity development occurs and how environment clothing, the people you're around, everything impacts the way in which you identify yourself and your authenticity.

[00:06:10] That is super, super interesting. I definitely can relate to everything you're saying about not really fitting in, you know, in America and then trying to hang out with people from India or people who are, quote unquote, more Indian than me not being accepted by them. And this whole thing about identity, like my own born and raised in California, in California. In Tulsa. Twenty eight ish and left a while ago, several years ago, I very strongly identify myself, not as not as Punjabi, not as American, just Californian, but I take pride in that identity first. Really interesting to hear about that.

[00:06:47] Yeah, that's neat. It's neat. So why Californian?

[00:06:51] I don't know, man. It's just it's that I feel like it's so distinct from the rest of the US have kind of our own slang. It's got its roots culture for the world. Right. So I just feel very proud of that.

[00:07:05] Yeah, that's great. It's also cool, like there's a cool association with like a surfer dude, like I'll totally stereotype you. And it's all positive stereotypes, you know, by the beach, just kind of taking it.

[00:07:18] Don't even know how to swim. You put me on a surfboard.

[00:07:22] Yeah. I don't know what I would say if someone like I find it difficult.

[00:07:27] Know what? How do I identify myself? I would say I'm a rebel. I like I. I definitely want to be remembered as someone who is cool. Like when I picture, like my funeral, I feel like people would be like, oh, she was so smart. She was so nice.

[00:07:43] But everyone says that at a funeral. Right. Like it's it's like a give. And even if they don't know me, they're most likely going to say that I was like, really nice. But like people who know me are, they're they're going to be like, she was a cool girl, like she was just cool.

[00:07:57] So speaking of being a rebel, what kind of kid were you in high school? And then when you were in high school, what did you think your future would look like?

[00:08:05] Sure. So in high school, I was definitely very much a dork. I love reading. It's something that is a great pleasure in my life. Relatively, I'd say addicted to reading. I read at least one book a week. I was an English major.

[00:08:21] I had lunch with my English teacher pretty much every day, and I also hung out with all boys. So like I was like a tomboy, I'd say my dad really wanted a boy. So he basically raised me as a boy. So I was really into like dirt bikes, motorcycles. Anything with two wheels is better than four and one wheel is better than two was kind of like our saying, but I really was very much a rebel. I had four motorcycles and I just kept getting more and more.

[00:08:51] And now as an adult, I think, oh my gosh, my parents were horrible parents for letting me do these near death activities, like being on a bike.

[00:09:00] But for the most part in high school, I mean, I was an avid reader and I just really into motorcycles and quads, as strange as that sounds, and their bikes.

[00:09:11] Yeah, you definitely cool. Thank you. So what was the dream like after high school that brought you to where you are today? So you kind of deviated from the path that most Indian parents set for a kids lawyer, doctor, engineer gave you something completely different.

[00:09:29] Yeah. So I always wanted to be a professor. So I read Hamlet in 11th grade and it definitely was a defining factor in my life. It really impacted me. And I said, you know, I want to teach Shakespeare. And so at first, of course, being Indian, I talk to my family and they were like, you can't be a high school teacher. They don't make any money. Like, that's failure. And so I thought, oh, you know, it's a little bit more prestigious if I kind of went for a doctorate and focused on that, instead became a professor.

[00:10:01] And so I kind of had like this very linear concept of what I thought would be like a happily ever after career trajectory. I thought I'd become an adjunct. Then I'd become full time. Then I'd get tenure, become a full professor and live happily ever after, published some work. And what happened was I moved to Boston. I was teaching at a couple of the universities there, and I it wasn't until I got promoted to the director of the English department where I realized that I absolutely have no desire to evaluate my peers. I hated the management and administrative part of it. And so it was really like a blessing because I got promoted at a very young age and I, in a sense, achieved what I thought was my dream, which is to become a professor. And then as soon as I started really doing the anything that kept me away or move me away from the actual teaching part. So I want my goal was to go in, teach my classes and leave. And so anything that kind of wasn't that it wasn't my thing. So I, I stopped and I just kept teaching the classes and as an adjunct. And then I kind of moved into more passion projects, et cetera, things that really bring me joy, such as my comedy research. And I did a lot of work in the nonprofit world as well.

[00:11:20] So talk to us about that. What happened at that comedy club? What was it about that experience that really changed you and changed kind of the path of research? You I think you took on additional research. You completely changed your research path after that.

[00:11:33] Yes. So interestingly enough, so as I was saying earlier, I'm really interested in this kind of immigrant experience for Asian immigrants, especially Indians.

[00:11:45] So I wrote my dissertation on Mair's, which is like I was telling you, the type of Indian I am. And so I wanted to understand the way in which female mayors in particular navigate their surroundings. So I did my research in India, Canada, the United States, in the U.K. And what I did is I wanted to understand the psychosocial impact of essentially if you take a married woman who lives in India and you take a married woman who lives in the West, how is that experience different? And what are essentially the pros and cons? I could guess that the approach to being in the West is you have better access to education and you have better access to job opportunities and essentially equality as a woman. So Indian women who are educated in the West. My research shows that even though they have better access to education and better access to economic opportunity in the community, the women are encouraged to get married. That is the focus. First and foremost, you get marriage. Education is a leader for these women. And because they have that dichotomy of two opposing cultures, in a sense.

[00:12:59] Right, you have individualistic culture in the West and collectivist culture in the east. And so the Indian women who are getting educated in the West had a huge disadvantage in that they really were not taking advantage of all these opportunities. Whereas the Indian women in India, they're being encouraged to go to school and they're surrounded with mayor or Gujarat, the culture. So they don't have that added pressure or that psychosocial burden.

[00:13:28] So they don't have as much of the trauma and the drama of being Indian and trying to figure out who the hell you are.

[00:13:36] Right. So they were there at a huge advantage in terms of everything, opportunity, et cetera. So I'm writing my dissertation on this. Right. And I was traveling to all these different places. And it was fascinating. It was lovely. It was wonderful. But I was a hermit. All I did was wake up, sit in front of my computer system like I never left. I was quarantined before the pandemic, self quarantine, trying to do this.

[00:14:02] And as an Indian woman, I have a mustache. I have thick eyebrows. So they're growing and I'm looking horrible.

[00:14:10] And my neighbor.

[00:14:11] He's you just knocked on my door and he's like, you look terrible, like, what the hell is that happening to you? And I'm like, you know, I'm working on this research. And he takes me to a comedy show.

[00:14:21] I go to the comedy show, laugh so hard, and just felt so alive, more alive than I felt, despite the fact I was really passionate about my research. The next day, I still felt like lighter, like I could breathe easier. I don't know. It's like I just felt more grounded as like a human being and more like myself, strange things. So I kind of pushed my dissertation aside and I started just side researching laughter and comedy. And I was very much working in an oncology space at the same time. So it fit right in. So I started my research with the way in which laughter impacts people in the audience, the people who are laughing like I was. And then it shifted where I started directing my attention to the actual stand up comedians, because I thought to myself, if the people in the audience are having these incredible health benefits, it it boosts their immunity. It was their ability decreases the chance of heart attack. And it it increases oxygen and reduces stress, cortisol, all these things.

[00:15:34] And even in cancer patients, I was reading all these incredible stories and meeting these people and really seeing a difference in the way in which they were able to handle chemotherapy because they they made laughter part of their life. So it's quite moving and remarkable. And then I said, OK, well, if the comedians are living, eating, breathing in this space, it's got to impact them as well.

[00:15:58] And so that's how I kind of gave you the longest answer in the world to a question I don't even remember.

[00:16:03] No, no, that's awesome. Really, really appreciate that depth. That was really fascinating to hear about your research and just the effect that laughter has on your body. That is really, really interesting. That has all these positive benefits. Doesn't matter if we like. Ha ha ha. Fake laughter. We like needle like a genuine laugh to get some of these positive benefits.

[00:16:27] Yes. So genuine laughter is definitely the best in terms of your wellness because it feels great, but your body really doesn't know the difference. So even fake laughter has positive benefits for your body. So even fake smiling is good for you.

[00:16:45] So I'd love to get into learning more about what you learned from the stand up comedians. One of my best friends is a stand up comic. He actually lives in Vegas as well. And he's going to really appreciate this question about the relationship between human intelligence. So what is the relationship between these two things?

[00:17:04] Yeah, it's a really fascinating thing. I mean, comedians have higher I.Q., higher emotional intelligence, higher verbal reasoning.

[00:17:14] They're better at problem solving skills. They're better at abstract thinking or the ability to think outside the box. They're fun to be around. People tend to find them to be more attractive. And I mean, the relationship is I think it's multifaceted, but there's a certain level of courage, right, that it takes to get up and put yourself out there and be vulnerable and to be on stage and to take a chance with what you think is funny, something that you wrote. So I think that there is there's different aspects to it. Right. So one aspect is having the courage to show up and to bet on yourself and to say, look, I'm going to do this and what's the worst that's going to happen?

[00:17:54] Right. I think people admire that. And I think people find something remarkable in that person who's not afraid to kind of take a chance and bet on themselves. And I think that for me, that was definitely one of the big things where it was like, you know, it's amazing to me that someone could just have that level of confidence and courage. And so that's part of it. But then the other part of it is like the prep. So before you go on stage, it's like they're constantly aware. They're constantly scanning the environment for material. So a comedian's brain, you know, it's never really, really off. There's there's that constant kind of like, is this something? Is this funny?

[00:18:37] And I think finding the humor in the mundane, you know, finding the absurdity in everything, if you look for it, you'll see it. It's everywhere. And it's funny because you don't take yourself as seriously. And I think maybe you're a little bit more present.

[00:18:53] Thank you very much for that. Appreciate that answer. My buddy D.J. Sandy is his name. I'm sure he'll appreciate that as well.

[00:19:00] Oh, I think I know your friend. He was at the World Series of comedy this weekend. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's.

[00:19:07] Oh, nice. Yeah. It's like one of my best friends forever. Yeah. That was definitely him then. Did you see him do the giant giant freaking beard was at the same base.

[00:19:17] Yeah, I saw his photo all over everything. And one of my good friends, he, his name is reponse and he was saying he's like he's a really great guy, like he's a good guy. He's like showing me his picture on the billboards, like he's a really good guy. And him and one other person was essentially like, if I understand correctly, the main people who put on the show that that's why I came here, which is kind of ironic.

[00:19:40] That's so cool. Small world, huh? Very so. So comedians are smart. They have to be smart. Right, to be that funny. But can people suffer from intelligence?

[00:19:51] You know, it's such an interest. I wish I could just write like a gazillion dissertations like this and just get paid to just explore all these fascinating topics. So can you suffer from intelligence? I, I think so, absolutely. We've seen it time and time again throughout history.

[00:20:10] A lot of great, great, great people in all types of art, all different types of artists in this kind of correlation between madness, insanity and extreme genius or intelligence. And I think that part of it is when you're at that level of intelligence, you find patterns, you see things in a pattern like way. And it's kind of like the the paradox of like living in the box. Right. If you live in the box, you don't know any better. Ignorance is bliss. But once you're outside of the box and you can see everything, it's like you never really want to go back inside the box because that's like a lesser state of existence, I think.

[00:20:52] But there is that kind of notion of the knowledge, the suffering that comes from the knowledge, right. From the from knowing. And so I think that there is time and time again a lot of great examples of suffering from intelligence. With a lot of the comedians I've talked to, the majority of them have had some type of physical or psychological trauma that essentially almost put them into a state of rebellion. A state of what? Who cares? I'm going to do what I want to do and I'm going to do it now. I'm going to bet on myself.

[00:21:24] So I think that there's a relationship between this certain kind of rebellious way of living and also knowing that life is short and having that knowledge that you will you will die at some point in time. As morbid as that sounds, it kind of pushes you to not take time for granted because you're smart. Enough to know that you don't have all the time in the world.

[00:21:47] I absolutely love that like that. It sounds morbid, but I do contemplate death like every day, just as part of my just this part of my philosophy. Right.

[00:21:57] That's great. There's an app that I really like. It's called We Croak. And what it does is it reminds me five times a day it says, just so you know, you're going to die and it gives you like this quote and it's based on Tibetan monks. And what they do is five times a day they contemplate death. They actually contemplate the decay, the decaying of their flesh. And it's proven to change your brain structure and to to help you really focus on the fact that life is very you know, nothing is permanent. Life is very fast and short.

[00:22:36] Yeah. I mean, Marcus Aurelius has one of my favorite quotes about this. It's that you can live life right now. Let that determine what you do and say and think. And I just think that it's powerful.

[00:22:46] Very powerful. Yeah, it's very, very powerful.

[00:22:49] So intelligence is plastic in a sense. You could develop intelligence, you can cultivate it. Can you do the same for humor as humorous skills, which is something that we're born with? Can we get better at it?

[00:23:04] Yes, so I think that one of the ways that people can really get better at it is being very cognizant of who you surround yourself with, right. So it's like I'm very particular about my small circle of friends. They they make me feel very comfortable and like I'm not going to be judged. I'm not going to if I make a crappy joke or crappy decision, whatever it is, it's like an abundance of love and acceptance. And I think that it makes it a lot easier for me to be humorous, to be fun. And I think that that's one of the things that as I've gotten older, I've realized if you want to have more humor in your life, you want to be around people who appreciate it and who cultivate it and support you in that. And in turn, it turns into kind of a cycle and that they will also do the same thing and just kind of have more fun in their life. So I think that's a great way of cultivating humor in your life, making sure you're surrounded by people who value it because it is a value.

[00:24:13] So are funny people more emotionally intelligent? And if so, why is that?

[00:24:21] You know, I would say they're absolutely more emotionally intelligent. And, you know, I'm making this is like a sweeping generalization. But I would say the majority of comedians, of course, you're going to have some that are not. But you have to be right, because you have to in order for you to get up in front of a room where you have a vast variety of demographics, you have to be able to kind of tap into the human condition. And it's the same reason why we celebrate Shakespeare and why he's been such a huge part of the Western canon. His writing is about the universal human conditions and comedians, the best comedians, they they do the same thing. They recognize that, hey, this person may be far right, far left, this person may be young, that this person may be older.

[00:25:09] But if I can find one thing that all of these people can't help but relate to, I'm going to connect with them. So they're thinking on a wider macro level when it comes to what it means to be human in the first place. And then from like a one on one setting, it's like you're training that skill where you can tell if someone's not paying attention to you or not feeling whatever it is that you're saying and having that kind of self recognition. It is a skill and it's a fundamental skill that I think people appreciate because it's easier to connect with people if you're kind of aware of where they are.

[00:25:52] Yeah, my next question is going to be, does laughter help us improve our relationships? And it sounds like it definitely, definitely does. Right.

[00:25:59] Yes, so think about a time in your life where, you know, you're with someone and you guys just laugh together or something humorous happen and you both shared that experience and laughter, it immediately builds trust. And and it's it's kind of like those those are the moments that we reflect on and remember in nostalgia. Right. Like remember that time. And I think of a time when you got into an argument with someone and then in the middle they cracked a smile because they couldn't stay mad at you like that. It it breaks the tension immediately. And then even if you're still kind of angry in some sense and it's still kind of boiling, it dissipates to a certain level just from cracking a smile and being like really like it's a it's a beautiful coping mechanism that's built into our evolution.

[00:26:52] And something that wasn't built into our evolution was just this constant use and communication through screens. And now we're happy to do so a lot more because of our global situation. What impact do you think this has on emotional intelligence, having to communicate with people more through screens, especially in the workplace?

[00:27:14] Yeah, yeah.

[00:27:15] It's interesting because I do a lot of Zoome calls and I think that there's an advantage to it compared to how we were doing conference calls before where there wasn't the video wasn't the norm, let's say, last year at this time. It's like you do conference calls where it wasn't a video emphasis. So I think that there's pros and cons to it in that because the video is replacing your traditional conference call, there's a little bit more of an interaction there. But there's also kind of the notion of just being desensitized.

[00:27:46] And I think that's that's what we have to be cautious of when you're desensitized and you're getting zun fatigue because you're just going from, like one call to the other, it's going to be a routine and lifeless. Right.

[00:27:58] So any way that you can at your very best laugh and not take it as seriously in in many ways there's a lot more material you got like a cat walking across the screen or like laying on the screen or like my son, he likes to take these giant snakes, like the toy snakes and throw them at me when I'm on a zoom call and they terrify me, even though I know that they're fake things like that, where it's like, how can you not laugh at that and just kind of let it go and just kind of take it a little bit kinder and take it easy, because it's it just turns into such a chore if you don't.

[00:28:37] So what can stand up comedians teach us about problem solving?

[00:28:42] I think what I like to say is in life, there's so many moments, right, where you have embarrassment or I wish I didn't say that or I wish I didn't wear that, whatever it was. And we tend to torture. We tend to self torture. So we'll replay those moments of embarrassment or whatever it is over and over and over. We magnify it in our minds and we we just keep replaying it. And when we do something and you have these moments where something worked out and it went really well and you had a great time like this, it's like, why not replay that and embrace it and and really reflect on that?

[00:29:23] And I think that with comedians, those moments where they'll get up on stage and they bomb, they're not dwelling on that. The best comedians. It's just, you know, it's just part of the process. It's built into their success. Failure is an inevitable part of their success. It's necessary for their growth. So if we can take more of that into our lives and understand that you're either going to learn from it and grow and get back on stage and do better the next time, or you're just going to sink and stay in that space and and not really move forward. I think that's really the critical part. Embrace the positive, hold on to it, chase it, build it and let go of those moments that you don't really want to replay. Right. So why replay them?

[00:30:15] It's almost like the stage is like a learning environment. I think the term for the learning environments where you just get immediate feedback as to whether it's something you did worked or not, I believe that's called a kind learning environment, if I'm mistaken. Apologize. And the state is very much like that because you could tell a joke and it's either going to make people laugh or it's not going to make people laugh. And I think that draws parallels to the Data science world because learning how to program, learning how to code is most definitely one of those environments where you try something and it works or it doesn't work, you'll get an error bounce back. And it's important to take what you learned from that mess up, from that failure to improve. Rather than just getting stuck in oh, I couldn't this joke didn't land, therefore I'm not funny. No one is ever going to laugh my joke ever again.

[00:31:07] Right, which is not true. Right. Because that's a story that you're creating. And if you're around people who constantly remind you that that is not the case, it makes it so much easier to just not care what other artists.

[00:31:26] I would love to hear from you. Feel free to send me an email to the artists of Data Science at Gmail dot com. Let me know what you love about the show. Let me know what you don't love about the show and let me know what you would like to see in the future. I absolutely would love to hear from you. I've also got open office hours that I will be hosting and you can register by going to bitterly dot com forward, slash a d. S o h. I look forward to hearing from you all and I look forward to seeing you in the office hours. Let's get back to the episode.

[00:32:10] I love to get into your leadership philosophy.

[00:32:15] I'd like to think that the data scientist who listen to this podcast, a special breed of data scientist, these are the ones that are going to become chief data scientist, chief analytics officers. So I'd love to kind of get them thinking about what it means to be a good leader. So what do you think makes a good leader?

[00:32:35] Sure. So I I have the honor and privilege of being part of the American Express Leadership Academy at the Arizona State University Loadstar Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Innovation. And out of that experience, I essentially was able to do a lot of great work with excellent leaders and which we have a book club where we talk about leadership and we read all leadership books. And I'm launching a podcast called Leader Voices, which is funded by the American Express Leadership Academy. And so I'm living, eating, breathing leadership. I think it's a fascinating area to explore. And and what I firmly believe is that, know, there's kind of this old school way of looking at leadership, which is more of kind of an authoritative, I demand respect type of philosophy, which is really just out the door that's not working anymore. People aren't interested in being in kind of like a fear, fear based relationship. And I think that the best leaders and the most effective leaders, they truly make you want to be your best.

[00:33:41] So it's not about anything else. It's about inspiring people to want to do their best work simply because it's more of a value. Right. It's a value. And they respect their leaders. So I feel like the best leaders will allow their teams and inspire their teams to be the best that the best version of themselves versus this kind of old school notion of micromanagement or knowing where your staff is at all times and really dictating the way in which you want them to do their jobs. And I think with the pandemic, that's something that's evolved as well, where there's a lot more flexibility and more of a focus on essentially the quality versus the quantity of of a person's work.

[00:34:32] Indiscernibly wanted to read up more about leadership, you have any kind of book recommendations that they can go pick up.

[00:34:39] So one of my favorite leadership books, which some might say is not a leadership book at all, is the happiness advantage. And it's really about the way in which positive psychology plays a role in perpetuating greatness. And when you have negativity, it creates a cycle of malfunction in the workplace. This is another book that I mean, I don't know if anyone would consider it a leadership book, but I read it every single year. And it and it teaches me a lot.

[00:35:12] It's Kafka Metamorphosis. And it's a for anyone who hasn't read it, it's a book about a guy who wakes up and he's a giant cockroach. And it really explores the nature of our existence and working and what it means to be part of the world in a more meaningful way, I think.

[00:35:31] Thank you very much. Those are very, very interesting recommendations for sure. I was from a YouTube channel. It was. But there's a YouTube channel talking about like the history of the phrase Kafka esque. And I didn't know much about Kafka himself, but it was sad to see that he got posthumously famous like he had written all this stuff, was so afraid to push it out into the world or for whatever reason, didn't push it out into the world. And, you know, his friend found it and then published it on his behalf, I guess. How would that relate to two stand up comedians? Like, do you think there might be people out there and they might not even just be for stand up comedy, could just be for their own work. You could be somebody out there that wants to post their opinions on LinkedIn. Maybe they want to write a blog post, but they're scared to publish it. They're scared to go for it. Do you have any advice for somebody who might be feeling that?

[00:36:24] Yeah, it's so fascinating, so Kafka instructed that gentleman to burn all of his works and the guy didn't listen and he published it and it's timeless. It's absolutely time. It's a Metamorphosis was published in nineteen fifteen and I read it every single year. And it's absolutely timeless in terms of its lessons. And I think that as human beings, especially artists, especially people who demand perfection, such as myself, it's debilitating. You don't want to do it unless it's perfect. And that stops you from doing it because nothing is perfect. Right. So recognizing that sometimes progress is better than not doing anything right. So just breaking it down into those steps and saying, look, I'm going to do this and if it works out, it works out. And if it doesn't, I did it. It's that not having that regret. And I think that's one of the reasons why comedians go for it, because they don't want to regret not doing it and not taking advantage of the fact that life is short. So it kind of goes back to this whole concept of really being cognizant of the fact that you're going to die. It is one hundred percent inevitable. There's nothing more inevitable than your death. And so knowing that you don't have all the time in the world and if there is something that you're passionate about, why not do it?

[00:37:49] I love it. Absolutely love it. I was reading a book earlier today, Seneca, on the Shortness of Life. I think you might really enjoy that book as well. Oh, no, thank you. It's written by stoic philosopher Seneca. Awesome. So going back to this to leadership in your philosophy on leadership, like I mentioned, the @TheArtistsOfDataScience. Right? My people who are listening to my show, they are the artists of Data science. They may not be leaders yet, but they are definitely well on their way to becoming chief Data scientist, chief analytics officers. But where they are right now, they might not have that the title. So do we have to be in official leadership role to be a good leader or to show leadership?

[00:38:33] Yeah, absolutely not. So I think that this is you know, it's such an important and great question that you're asking right now. Essentially, leaders lead in all walks of life. They don't have to have those leadership titles. They don't have to be designated leaders where people know that they are the designated leader. The best leaders are leading. And people unconsciously, many times will just turn to them and look to them for what's next. That's leadership in the truest form in that it's just who you are and the way in which you you walk into a room, the way in which you show up. So a good example of this would be really recognizing the fact that leadership isn't about you. Right. It's about the way you make others feel and the way in which you allow others to bring their greatness to the table to be the best version of themselves.

[00:39:31] So whenever you're in a place and this can expect to laughter, it's like just bringing that authenticity, bringing that joy and that happiness and that non judgment and accepting people and trying to see them for who they really are. That's leadership because you're allowing people to feel comfortable and inspired and they actually intrinsically in turn, want to be the best version of themselves because of the way in which you see them. So any human being who can do that in any aspect of their life, whether it's getting a coffee at Starbucks or leading a conference or whatever that is, that's that's true leadership allowing others to be the best version of themselves.

[00:40:18] And how can we start to do that? How can we start allowing people to be the best version of themselves? Let's say there's somebody that's listening that might be an individual contributor or what could they do to start kind of showing up as a leader, start cultivating these qualities for themselves?

[00:40:34] So I think vulnerability is is a big aspect of creating connection. So I think building relationships is fundamental because you're you're building trust.

[00:40:45] So anything that you can do in those interactions where you're being vulnerable and showing that you're you're willing to connect, you want to connect. And I think vulnerability is a great way of doing that. And that could be vulnerability and laughter or it could be vulnerability.

[00:41:05] And in sharing something that will allow that other person to kind of say, OK, you know, I don't need to have my guard up, this isn't something where all the walls have to be up. A great example of this is, you know, a lot of times we gather with other people, we get. Into these group gatherings, and you're kind of just doing the motions, right, let's say it's a conference, it's like, you know, you just kind of do the motions of what you think that's supposed to be, but really getting out of that mindset of just kind of doing the motions, but really focusing on how can I truly do something that will make this person remember me. People will remember there's a great quote. I know you've heard it a million times. People remember how you make them feel. And those are the things that you want to focus on when you're thinking about leadership, because if you make them feel comfortable, they're going to be more comfortable.

[00:41:59] And everyone just wants to be comfortable with the people that they are forced to hang out with, no matter where they are. Right. You surround yourself with people who you want to be comfortable with. So it seems so simple, doesn't it, when you say it like that?

[00:42:14] I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, so you work with Data scientists as well and quite knowledgeable individuals, I'd say definitely intelligent as well. And one of the things about being so knowledgeable, so intelligent is that you always have to feel like you need to know the answer to everything. And I think a real easy way to start showing vulnerability is if you don't know the answer to something, don't pretend like you know it and forget about it. Just acknowledge the fact that you don't know. And just to share that, be comfortable and be open with that, with that kind of. Is that an example of your own ability?

[00:42:50] Yeah, absolutely. It's an excellent example of vulnerability.

[00:42:53] The people who I work with, my research team in particular, they're brilliant. And when I first started in my role, I was extremely intimidated, used a lot of adjectives to describe. And I was waiting for you to say they're intimidating Data scientists are intimidating in their brilliance because, you know, if you're a Data scientist like you are like up there like you, you're extraordinary. And it's kind of like a rock star kind of role when you read about the positions and the companies and the sheer power of Data in itself in this day and age. So I think maybe some advice for your listeners is you guys are rock stars. There's hundreds of millions of people who would kill to be a data scientist, and you don't need to know everything. And it's OK to kind of embrace your rock star.

[00:43:48] Ask because you're a data scientist. That's freaking brilliant. Ownit strut, strut around with that. And if you don't know the answer, you don't know the answer. But you're still a freaking data scientist.

[00:44:02] I love that. That's that's really making me blush underneath all this pressure for. Thank you. Thank you so much for advice for the listeners in your research. Have you found that like leaders like to have better sense of humor?

[00:44:16] I think the best ones do. My president and CEO has a great sense of humor and it always is very endearing.

[00:44:25] And I have so much respect for him for many, many reasons. But a lot of the greatest leaders that I talked to, it's not so much that they're like doing stand up comedy or anything like that. It's not like structured, but it's just kind of taking it easy, not taking themselves so seriously and finding the humor and kind of being very human. And I think that's part of the authenticity part of it, where it's like, you know, like I'm just another human being, like, yes, I might be in a position of power. But ultimately, you know, I like to joke around like I like to binge watch Netflix sometimes, you know what I mean? Like that kind of bringing the walls down and allowing yourself to just be human and laugh a little. But I do think that that builds trust and it is important because it makes people feel they're part of something bigger.

[00:45:17] That brings me to this other research that you thought you that are having to is authenticity. I'd love to get into to that space. So can you help us understand what authenticity means? Because I feel like that's a term that just gets thrown a lot, almost like a buzzword nowadays. But what does that actually mean? Can you help us understand that?

[00:45:41] Yeah, so it's an interesting notion and I think there's a lot of different aspects to it. One area that I've always really been interested in exploring is the way in which your clothing impacts your authenticity or your ability to be you. So I did a lot of research many years ago on the ways in which your actual clothing impacts your body language and therefore it impacts the way in which you're behaving. So we did a series of studies where our students would basically go into the mall at the same time every day because they were trying to get research on the same sales people. So they'd go in at the same time. And one day they'd wear like a full professional suit, look very wealthy, et cetera. And then they just kind of charted the way in which it might have helped with their the way in which you might have impacted their posture, the way in which they stood up with a little bit more confidence, though, in which they communicated eye contact and also the way in which other people treated them, which in turn impacted the way in which they would behave. And then on alternating days, they'd wear like hoodies with Timberland boots. This is done in Connecticut, New Britain, Connecticut, Central Connecticut State University.

[00:46:52] And they noticed right away that they felt kind of paranoid. There were there were many times followed around the store not greeted. So it's both. Right. So the way you're dressing is going to change the way in which you're going to feel more comfortable. So obviously, wearing things that make you feel more like you is going to make it easier for you to be more authentic. And and it's also going to impact the way in which people see you and the way in which they treat you, which it all kind of ties together. So they're all pieces, right. So authenticity. It's not just one version of you. Like you're going to have days where you're a greater version of yourself based on health, mood or whatever, and then you're going to have days where you're not at that same level of yourself. So knowing that there's it's OK to fluctuate and it will fluctuate, you're going to have good days. You're going to have bad days. And how do you handle that? And then what things can you control, such as your attire, et cetera, that would help you be the most authentic version of yourself.

[00:47:51] So why is it more important that we keep it real in the first place like now more than more than ever?

[00:48:00] Well, I think for so many years we didn't have the beauty of the Internet where we had all of these different places where we could fit in as ourselves before there was. There's so much of this is how you are supposed to be, if this is what you look like or if this is who you are. So and now it's like I could be think of the weirdest categories of description for a person, and I'm sure I can find a group somewhere online that would wildly accept me as one of their own, you know.

[00:48:31] So it's it's like we live in this beautiful day and age where we can really self reflect and say these are the things that make me happy. I really am into magic. I want to learn how to do like magic, like a magician like that is cool to me.

[00:48:48] And it takes self reflection to recognize that that's something that I'm into and I want to pursue that. So it's like it makes it easier to live your life if you're doing things that you love, because that's authenticity. So like my goal is, no matter where I am or who I'm interacting with, I'm pretty much exactly the same. I don't have, like, these different variances. And yes, on my best days, I'm going to be better. And on my worst days, I'm not going to be as great, but I'm still going to be me. And I think back in the day it was more like, OK, this is professional set and we don't talk about going to Vegas and having four days of debauchery with certain people because they're your professional people. It's like, I don't want any of that in my life. I want I want consistency and authenticity and to be embraced and accepted for who I am, the good, the bad and the ugly.

[00:49:42] So can we cultivate authenticity as a trait? Is that something that if we feel like we're all we've got our guards up, if we're not the same across all kind of situations, can we cultivate this authenticity and if so, how?

[00:49:57] Yeah, I think self reflection is is critical. There's a lot of great tools. I do. It's like the six minute journal and it's a it's a gratitude journal where it's like every morning I reflect on the things that bring me joy. And so when I'm experiencing those moments, I'll kind of be more present and embracing them in the moment. And I'll know, like this is going to go in my gratitude journal tomorrow, but I think self reflection.

[00:50:22] So anything that you can do, we're constantly self reflecting, like think about all like, OK, so I'm thirty eight. I just turned thirty eight about three weeks ago and in my thirty years there have been so many times where I've spent time with people who I don't enjoy spending time with. And it's like that makes me inauthentic because I'm not myself, I'm not feeling great about it and it sucks. So what do you do? You stop hanging out with people who don't make you happy. You stop hanging out with people who are not interested in your well-being or they don't make you feel like the best version of yourself or like you can be yourself. Right. That's a big one. It's like stop hanging out with people who don't make you feel like you're allowed to be yourself, things like that. So self reflection is definitely the key, increasing the things that bring you joy and make you happy and getting rid of all the rest of it.

[00:51:11] That's super simple to do. It's simple, but it's difficult. At the same time, it takes work and it takes effort to put in that self reflection and really think, yeah, maybe do it in.

[00:51:23] A measurable way, so you can say, look, this year I'm going to focus on accelerating two things that are very important to me. One of the strategies that we use in the American Express Leadership Academy is creating a happy list. So you just make a list of all the things that really make you happy. And then based on that list, you multiply or in retrospect, you also reflect on the things that didn't make your list.

[00:51:47] Can we use authenticity to help us combat imposter syndrome?

[00:51:51] Yeah. So I think this goes back to again in terms of the people you surround yourself with. I owe so much to my circle of friends. They're amazing. And I used to have so I have imposter syndrome. Let me let me rewind a little. So I have imposter syndrome. I've had it my whole life. No matter what I do, what I've accomplished, I kind of feel like I'm sure that happened. But it wasn't that hard. It wasn't that big of a deal at all. Look at it as extraordinary. When you describe my bio, I feel like you're talking about a different person. Like I said, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just this simple, but it sounds like this fancy person that is separate from me. So what's really helped me the most in my life in terms of alleviating the imposter syndrome is surrounding myself with people who who are kind. It's like when you surround yourself with people who kind of diminish your accomplishments, it's a lot easier to have imposter syndrome because they're they're actually supporting that. And so I worked for a toxic leader in the past and most of my peers in this organization were toxic. They weren't kind. And I really felt like an imposter. And now I work in an organization where it's like everyone's really kind and there's a healthy organizational culture where that toxicity is not accepted. And I don't feel like an imposter as much because I'm working in an organization where people support each other as well.

[00:53:18] It's crazy how much of an effect that could have on and spills. Not only the spills over into your personal life, even though it just affects our work, like I was in the same type of toxic environment for several years and I was working for. Yeah. To see what it impacts you. Really?

[00:53:36] Absolutely. You spend so much time at work, right? It's like your whole week is really kind of designed around your work, your whole life, your year, your vacations, depending on what type of positions you're in. So it's like if you're working in a place where they're not making you feel, you know, healthy or toxicities, accept it. I think that it can be really detrimental to your psyche and it will increase your imposter syndrome because it's just inevitable.

[00:54:06] Last formal question before you jump into a quick random round. It's one hundred years in the future. It's twenty one twenty. What do you want to be remembered for?

[00:54:16] Twenty one twenty.

[00:54:18] So one big thing for me is I'm very much passionate about education, especially in India, and I believe education is really the key to bridging the gender gap and really ensuring that our future generations are educated and really ready to handle on the challenges of the world.

[00:54:41] So I would want to be most remembered for my impact in the educational space in rural India. There's a lot of need in rural India, and I try to do the best that I can to really bring attention to the need and to increase, especially for female students, their educational opportunities.

[00:55:05] That's wonderful. I absolutely love that. Thank you so much. So let's jump into a quick round and round first question since you were huge into Shakespeare. I was having this conversation with my cousin a couple of days ago. She's a high school senior and she was reading, I think it was Hamlet that she was reading. And we're talking about why high schools don't have like a modern version or modern translation of Shakespeare that's devoid of all the bow for our child and stuff like that. Do you think that should ever happen?

[00:55:33] No, no. You're reading someone. OK, so it would be inauthentic. OK, so here's my two cents on it. So it would be inauthentic because there really is no real authentic way to read Shakespeare. It's always going to be filtered because someone's already putting him on a pedestal and saying, you have to read this. It's important because it's Shakespeare. So you'll never have a truly authentic experience of Shakespeare because it's filtered in your experience. But to take his language and change it covered. You can't do that. You can't do it.

[00:56:07] Yeah, a good point. I was reading like there's a modern translation of Marcus Aurelius meditations that read so much more cleanly and poetically as opposed to like an older translation that has all those vowels and Shante and forwards and all those stuff. And I just thought it might be easier for high school students. But you're more than that.

[00:56:31] It's kind of like a puzzle, though. So identifying and then some of the fun of it is like the linguistic history, right.

[00:56:39] The evolution of our language. And some of the words are just hilarious. Like, I just feel like it's almost like a puzzle that you're and like understanding the double meaning of some of the words that he uses and how you have these words that mean something different in a slang sense to certain groups. You're penny theaters and then for like the aristocrats, the way in which those words would resonate with them and the way in which in many ways Shakespeare was hilarious and he made fun of these people constantly through his brilliant language.

[00:57:09] I think that what I would say is when I teach Hamlet or when I teach any Shakespeare, we do it all. So we we do the original text and then we'll go through different versions because it's also interpretation. So it's like one version will really, really play up.

[00:57:25] Essentially the Oedipus complex. One version will really play up the relationship between intelligence and madness and Hamlet. And so looking at all the different versions and then also understanding that each one of those is an interpretation of his text, of his language.

[00:57:44] When do you think the first YouTube video to hit one trillion views will happen, and what do you think that video will be about?

[00:57:54] Wow, that is such a good question. So I am a reader and I don't watch YouTube. And whenever people share videos with me, I find it very I'm very impatient. I can't watch videos if there's something that I need to learn. And they only have like video instructions, like I won't even watch the video. So I, I would say that one trillion views. I hope it has closed captioning. I really do, because I would want to read whatever it is that would have that many people interested. And I have no idea. I hope it's not. I hope it's it's a value. It's going to cost that much.

[00:58:36] It's probably going to be like a cat acting weird.

[00:58:41] Do you think that will happen relatively sooner than later? I think that there's definitely having an addiction to your phone and I constantly checking it is a real thing. And more and more people are really immersed in constantly consuming media. So I think it'll be sooner rather than later. And it's probably going to be a the pessimistic part of me. I feel like it's probably going to be pretty sad.

[00:59:09] I think the current as of as of just like last week, the most watched video on YouTube is baby shark.

[00:59:17] Ok, so I guess that says a lot about us. What are you currently reading?

[00:59:23] So I, I do this thing where every year I reread a handful of books that are like my favorite books. So there's it's a classic, it's camu and it's called The Stranger. It's a very tiny, tiny book. And I the flight here is like forty five minutes. So I'm like, OK, I'm going to get that out of the way because I like to read it every year again. I just finished reading that, but the other two books that I read every year, it's a series by Patrick Rothfuss. The first book is called The Name of the Wind. And the second book is A Wise Man's Fear. Both, I mean, absolutely.

[00:59:58] You know, ten out of ten brilliant characters that are those that show notes as well. Let's jump into the random question generator and see what we come up with here. All right. First question, what issue will you always speak your mind about?

[01:00:14] I think literacy and education are critical. And any time that people are not equipped or that's not encouraged, I think that's a huge issue and it should always come first.

[01:00:27] If you lost all of your possessions but one, what would you want it to be?

[01:00:33] I would say my Kindle. Hopefully I'll still have Internet access, but then I'd have an unlimited amount of books because I am a bookworm. What's your earliest memory? My earliest memory? Well, this is getting deep.

[01:00:48] So when I was a very young kid, I ironed my hand. So I have like this giant scar on my hand because I ironed it and I ended up going to the hospital. I think I was there for like 30 days. And they actually investigated my mom for, like, negligence. And they thought she was, like, abusing me, which she wasn't. She just wasn't paying attention when I ironed my hand.

[01:01:12] I remember that pirates or ninjas ninjas all day.

[01:01:19] How can people connect with you and where can they find you online?

[01:01:22] So you can connect with me on LinkedIn or you can go to my website. It's Kuria dot com and then I have all of my contact information on there.

[01:01:31] Thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be on the show today. I really, really appreciate you taking time out of your weekend in Vegas to be on the show. Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.