april16.mp3

Speaker1: [00:00:09] What's up, everybody? How's it going? Welcome to the Data Science Happy Hour. Super excited to have you guys here. It's Friday, April 16th. Wow. Can't believe it, April. Hope everybody is doing good. Hopefully, I've had an opportunity to listen in to the interview I did with Jon Kate Thompson. He's quite a legend in the field. It's quite a pleasure to be able to to speak with him. Right. And we'll look. I'm super excited to have you guys here. Let's go ahead and start taking some questions, man. So if anybody has a question, please go ahead and eat yourself and go for it. In the meantime, while that person is asking the question, if you got a question, go ahead and just type it right there in the chat. Add you to the Q Vivian, go for it.

Speaker2: [00:00:51] Oh, I'm sorry. This is a hard, heavy topic, but I started reading Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. And I guess that just this is something that's been on my mind ever since I started learning Data science and ever since I started coming to this group. And I haven't wanted to bring it up because it's uncomfortable. But I guess I would just like to talk about I don't know what people's thoughts on diversity, particularly gender diversity. I feel like I have faced I'm sure that a lot of people have faced some feelings of discrimination here for various reasons. But I guess I just I don't know. I'm I'm struggling. I'm feeling like this is frustrating and feeling like I don't know, it's just rough trying to be a woman in this world. And, like, I have so much ambition and constantly kind of being cut down and punished for having a lot of ambition being told I'm like prickley and things like that. And I don't know just if anybody has any thoughts about, you know, where they see this going or any if anybody just wants to bitch about stuff that they've experienced. That's welcome to

Speaker1: [00:02:03] That. Definitely. Well, first, let Joan Sebastian take this over. But I mean, I think you're pretty freaking awesome. So if that counts for anything, you are awesome. I love your questions. You're doing great. And Yemen, it's sorry you feel that way in. And I know how hard it can be. But you got this. You trust me, you'll you'll you'll handle this. You get your hands on this back and go for it.

Speaker3: [00:02:25] Yes. Actually, it's it's quite interesting because your question is very on topic for what I'm doing this week. So I was just working on building some sort of workshop for the four imposter syndrome. And I've been reading this book. Unfortunately, I can't remember the title, but I'll post it in the chat. So basically it's it's about how women can become successful and how they are. They are targeted by the imposter syndrome. And it's just, you know, I've read so far to third of the book. It is just amazing. And I would strongly recommend you to go through this and actually pretty much like for any of us who would have some sort of feeling of not you not being on level with other people, it's definitely something that I would recommend you to read, because it I think it extract the the essence of why we're feeling unprepared or why we're feeling that somehow being discriminated for whatever reason and some of these reasons might be just our own fault, but some others might not be our own fault. Some are just perception that we have perceptions that are real. So if we have a perception that we're being ostracized by for whatever reason, even if it's just a perception is still real and you still need to be able to overcome it, that particular aspect.

Speaker3: [00:03:54] So as Harp was saying, you know, just and especially for women, I'm just saying this out of not out of experience, because obviously I'm I'm a male. But from what I've read, it probably fits with what you're going through is that ambitious men are seen as as the gold standard, basically, but ambitious women are seen as arrogant. And it's unfortunate that it's like that. But I think it's at least, you know, if you are aware of what's happening, maybe maybe there's some other way for which you can actually just flip it around and just detach yourself from the stereotype that we have and so that we can actually move forward, because unfortunately, a lot has to do with just basic society, just basic basic stereotype that we have in our society, which might not necessarily be real. And but unfortunately, this is kind of ingrained in our culture. So I'll actually post the book in the chat so that you can check it out.

Speaker1: [00:04:57] Yeah, I wish there was more women in the audience today. There's usually a good balance because, you know, I'm sure they'd be able to give you a lot better advice than most of the dudes here. But, Mark, I'd love to hear what you got to say and then for Mark, we'll hear from Tom.

Speaker4: [00:05:12] Yeah, I mean, I have a lot to say about this because my background's in sociology and community health. Our work and like student affairs were like diversity. Inclusion was like a huge component. And a big reason why I got to the science was like, there's a lack of it. And like, I need to be at the table to to really fix that. So I think the first thing I really want to highlight is that there's there's two sides of it. There's a survival standpoint where, like, I need to take action is coming from being someone identifies as black, identifies a woman or various layers of experience. But there's some parallels. There's a survivor component like I need to modify my behavior to X, Y, Z just to be here. It's unfair. It's B.S. But like like, for instance, I code switch. I hate I don't say certain things or if I have a pain, I hold it back because I understand the social layer of the other side of it is I think this is the most important thing is like it's not our individual jobs to fix it. Emphasis on individual. It has to be a company wide initiative. And I think going back to the survival component is like being very picky of like what company really upholds this culture? Are they measuring pay disparities? Are they measuring not only their diversity but their inclusion efforts? What is the retention efforts look like? You know, do women come in cool, have like 30 percent women a company, but they're only one starring role and they only leave after a year.

Speaker4: [00:06:37] And that leadership, that should be a red flag for me. Am my my current company. And I talk about a lot I'm sorry for LinkedIn plus. Always be about them, but I feel like they've done it really well. It really great for me because like they measured those things they care about, like what's going on, how to fix things if there are a discrepancy. And so there's like those two components. And I think, you know, as a Data community, I think we really need to be mindful of that and like really push like really Data people. We know how to bring up these metrics. Right. How can we push to bring that? But for the individual people affected, yes, there's actions we have to take to survive and be in a space based not on us to fix this larger system. It really takes the whole company to really shift that actually value back.

Speaker1: [00:07:25] Thanks a lot for them. I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, I ask this quite frequently. How many of the women who come onto my show just ask them to share their experiences as a woman in Data science? So definitely if you get an opportunity to go listen to some of their advice, there's a ton of advice there. But let's see if we Kristen or I would like to to come in.

Speaker5: [00:07:45] Tom, I was just going to say Vivian was teasing you at the beginning, but I really do enjoy the tough questions you bring to this group, honestly. And I wanted to explore deeper. You don't have to get specific, but it is specific. Your specific frustration is when you're trying to ambitiously get ahead, you feel like it's harder for you than for the guy next to you.

Speaker2: [00:08:10] Yes, I have to always be better. And this isn't even about data science necessarily. Agreed. I mean, I started college when I was 15. I finished my two year degree before I finished high school and I went to graduate school when I was twenty. And it's like never been good enough. I read hundreds of books per year. Last year I read two hundred books like I read, I study, I like it's I, I want to be the very best. And then there's also this social expectation of like but don't talk about it like don't like brag about yourself. It comes off as like uncomfortable and then like a lot of people like lash out in insecurity. I've found that like I've had like male managers and stuff who are kind of sucky managers like whatever. But they I find that don't like lash out at me and punish me basically when they feel like I'm smarter than them. And like, I don't know, just so many times when I've had a boss, like, straight up steal my ideas or my my work that I've done for the team. And then we go to the meeting to present it. And then he says, oh, here's all the work I did. And like, oh, just pisses me off. Like, I and I even had I even had a boss and a coworker, two middle aged men. Man, explain to me menopause. We were like, I don't even know why that's appropriate at the workplace, but we were like discussing a woman who had gotten pregnant. And I made some comments of like, I don't even know what the comment was, but like apparently she was older and so they felt the need to stop and explain to me how menopause works. And so it was like, oh, it's just angers me so much of like, why why do these people do this? And so, like, why, why? Why can't I just be I don't know. I'm just ranting now because I'm just mad.

Speaker5: [00:09:53] So please, please, please be patient with me. As I say this, I want to preface it before I start. I do think that what you're explaining is harder for women, but. The same thing does happen to men to a lesser degree, I think, by the way, I am not negating at all that it's because you're a woman. It AIs I get very frustrated when I see people treat my wife differently on one of our family matters than me. But I've witnessed this for myself and others. In other words, I'm trying to say I think we can all benefit from this discussion, but we should remain sensitive that women get it worse. It took me a while to actually even I'm embarrassed to say this, Vivian. It took me a while to even see that honestly, that that women suffer in these regards more. It's amazing the spectrum of individuals we encounter in life. I don't want to oversimplify this, Vivian, but I think people are so freakin insecure across the board at different levels that they're grasping for anything they can get sometimes. And, yeah, they'll still your work. I don't know, maybe that guy thought, you know, he'd inspired you to do that and you were just doing what he thought. Of course, I know I'm thinking of some specific cases for myself and can't imagine how much worse they would have been for you. But I remember this bully at one company I worked at, and frankly, I had gotten in the habit of thinking it was just me. But then I found out, oh, no, there were a lot of people suffering from this guy's toxicity and it was worse for some of the women. And anyway, I don't know if anything I just shared was helpful at all. Vivian, I just want to say I empathize.

Speaker1: [00:11:45] Yeah, it's very I mean, like, I'm super, super bummed that you feel this way. Like, I mean, it sucks. I mean, if if or if you want to chime in on something Keko came in. I would love to have Mikiko provide you with some advice as well, because she always kicks ass at this type of stuff. Go for it. All I can

Speaker4: [00:12:03] Say is that I've definitely been there an example. Many years ago I developed the budget model for a company by land, just not my idea. And it's the opposite. It was actually a woman. Now this to me. Yeah, there is some discrepancy in the workplace and young women generally have to perform or harder to achieve. But this is the commonality in the workplace. I found many instances and finally I was able to leave the corporate world because the politics I'm not a politician, unfortunately. You know, I can only take so much bullshit that the coffee machine, but then I need to get back to work. And a lot of people will take that as a criticism. And it's like what I always say is that most people would say don't work so hard because you make me look bad. So you are actually indirectly creating an atmosphere where people feel threatened because you are work. And the one thing you never have to

Speaker1: [00:13:06] Let happen is to allow these people to get you,

Speaker4: [00:13:09] Are you? And at the end of the day, my dad gave me one advice. Don't look for your job, look for your boss, because that is if you can't work with your boss, you have no future in a company. Doesn't matter how hard you work, how much you do, you will never get anywhere because you do not have that support. And to work for that support,

Speaker1: [00:13:28] If there is a

Speaker4: [00:13:28] Point where you have to say it's not worth it anymore because it's affecting you as a person and not that. And remember, these people, they will move on. I live by one rule. What goes around comes around. That's how I justified that

Speaker1: [00:13:42] These people have better pay, better

Speaker4: [00:13:44] Jobs, get promotions, etc., etc. But at the end of the day, they will face themselves one day and that's what they will have the

Speaker1: [00:13:52] Event this year from you. And then after in to to and their MIKIKO, if you'd like to jump in, I think

Speaker3: [00:13:58] And this is hard because I think more of us need to say this. I felt a bit in feel for twenty five years and this is where we are. I mean, this is where we are right now. Is it better now? It still sucks when you can point to a couple of points. Sure. Awesome. We made a couple of points. That's not better and I think it needs to be said more. I felt I mean, yeah. That I tried does matter. I feel we're still here. We still have this problem. And I don't think we get past it until more of us just I feel what I did didn't work. What I've tried didn't work. You know, it didn't. And that's the that's the only conclusion you can come to by looking and listening to all the stories that are out there, especially right now. You know, it doesn't matter that I'm not quite in that middle age group yet or I'm not quite one of the most senior. I've had my chance. I feel and I'm sorry. I think we need to see that more. And when you fail, just start listening. And so, you know, obviously I can't fix a systemic problem, but talking to people like me, you have to at least come out and say, I failed and then start listening and just do the stuff other people tell you to do.

Speaker3: [00:15:01] Listen, don't try to do something else. And I find a lot of companies do this where, you know, you'll be told specifically like. Don't make me feel uncomfortable in here are three ways that you are making me feel uncomfortable, and then they do five other things. It's like, no, stop, listen what people are telling you to do and just do it. And I wish there was a magic button that was going to make this better in the next five to 10 years. But I've studied this and the numbers in Data science, it's one in four. That's women, one in four. If you are in any one of the minority or protected classes, it's worse than that. It actually is worse if you can believe it. It's it's abysmal. And there's no movement like that. Needle is not moving forward at anything you would think was an acceptable pace. And so I think, like I said, we've got to say what we're doing right now isn't working is a stop and start listening to people who are telling us that this is what we need and actually start doing it here.

Speaker6: [00:15:59] Oh, I'll go after Greg, actually, cause I'm looking at the resource, though. That was really good. But I'll go after Greg and then I can bring it up.

Speaker1: [00:16:06] Yeah, definitely. Greg, go for it and let us know if this is helping you make you feel better now. Yeah, yeah,

Speaker4: [00:16:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. As soon as I heard I heard it, you know, my heart goes out to you and I can, I can certainly relate. And for someone who comes from the Caribbean and had a hard time fitting in, I totally, totally relate to, to, to this. I've been in situations where people have asked me to give give my reports or Data to someone else to double check that. It's true. I've had my boss tell me, oh, I don't believe in what what you what you're giving me right now. I want somebody else to take a look at it. And it really sucks, you know, just because of my accent. Somebody thought that I should ask the fact that I ask too many questions. They thought that I didn't get it. I didn't understand it. On top of that, I'm black. Right. So in America and here's what I do in and I think you are you are way, way beyond that, too. Is that mindset you have right there is to find people who align with you like your vision and help you push forward. You are well equipped enough to spot the ones who will not align with you, will not push it forward so that once you identify them, start thinking about a way to align with the ones who can give you a boost. Surround yourself with them. So if your manager is not giving you that boost now, think about the next steps. How do you go around that? Because that person might be a blocker in your life and figure out a way to move around and be smarter, outsmart people.

Speaker4: [00:17:53] You're going to have to do that. And now another D to to build on what Vin was saying, the first step is to acknowledge the issue exists. That is perfect. But the key to bring this home is to become an advocate. That's what to me I see missing is that we say, yes, it exists. What do we do about it now? How do you become a manager now? Where is your team? Women, men, no matter what. Now you become an advocate. We change things by becoming an advocate one at a time. So if us men, we realize that there is an issue for women, let's become an advocate one at a time. That that to me is the key to change it. And it spreads. Right. Forget politics. So that's the way I can I can say it. I can see it in for any issue, the issue that that that is going on inside and outside of work. So with that vision, you find an advocate, you can spread the word, you can infect others. Right. So the ones who don't advocate for you, you move away from them. It's a big world. There will be somebody out there who wants to help you out. This group wants to help you out. So so I have to say thank you very much.

Speaker2: [00:18:56] Can I say something before Macaco goes? Yeah, absolutely. I just want to say that, like, I don't know. It's a great part of why I brought this up is also just that I want people to know that it's like happening. It's real, like I'm experiencing it. I'm I'm a real person here in front of you. It's happening to me. And I'm sure that lots of you also know that, too. But just in general, like, I don't know, notice, stop and notice things like that's one of the reasons that I bring this up is like, sure, I'm feeling pretty angry about it right now. But like, just just to notice, because once you start noticing, like whenever even like with this group, that was one of the first things I thought when I started coming here is like counting like how many women were here, how many minorities were here. It made a difference to me that Harp right. You are like a person of color leading this. Like, I noticed those things. And that's something that I find encouraging. So, yeah, like, you know, even just when you walk in a room to to have a meeting or whatever, like notice how many how many people who are not like you are in this room.

Speaker1: [00:19:58] Yeah, I absolutely agree with you because I try to make it a real effort to get as much diversity in terms of guest on the podcast as possible, because it I mean. Outside looking, it's just dudes and I mean mostly Indian dudes and Asian dudes, but, you know, dudes nonetheless. But yeah, Mikiko, go for it. Yeah.

Speaker6: [00:20:17] I mean, you know, it's funny, like so as someone who didn't like, go the traditional route and all that and also being like a queer Asian woman. But I don't present as that. Right. I think a lot of times I come off as just being like, I don't know, vanilla or whatever, vanilla Asian. I don't know, you know. But yeah, I mean, first off, I mean, like, just from what I'm picking up on the context, like I've totally had stuff like that happen and it's like hard to write because, like, I've had instances to like, for example, I'm talking to some coworkers and like I find out that people, for example, think I got the job because my hiring manager is into like Japanese women or, you know, I go to conferences, I get hit on by like some of the managers. They're like, oh, I really love the way you're like pants look on you. It's like, are you looking that closely? Aren't you supposed to be looking at the details? I'm like the PowerPoint slide, right? So, you know, all sorts of, like, nonsense. So so I posted a link because it's something that I think about a lot. Right. Is this concept of exit and voice, you know, so if you come on like if you have a situation that's like uncomfortable, I mean, there's two ways to do it. You can kind of like you can either, like, raise your voice or you can kind of like exit, you know.

Speaker6: [00:21:37] Now a lot of times that's really kind of hard. I've been in a lot of situations where I just could not leave a job because, like, financially, it's just not doable. Right. So there's so always sometimes it feels like there isn't really options. So, you know, there's the chance to kind of change the environment around you. But then there's also kind of the chance to, like I don't say, change your reaction or response to it, because frankly, that's not your responsibility. That is a responsibility on the person who is like making the environment an uncomfortable place to be and the manager who is not raising up their team. You know, but something that kind of helps me feel better is like, first off, in terms of like that, it's now AIs. I spent a lot of time doing work for organizations like lesbians, high tech and women who code because there's a lot of people like me, like you, who we're trying to make our way into, like the science machine learning. A lot of times we run up against the sort of like measuring contest, you know, that comes off as like micro aggressions or actually sometimes macro aggressions. Right. Let's be honest. Sometimes they're they're not that micro. So I spent a lot time there, like building relationships there as well, doing a lot of work wherever I can with sort of other organizations who maybe, for example, focus on like Black Lives Matter, looking at the impact of covid on like house exacerbated by like racist policies and all that.

Speaker6: [00:23:00] I try to build build allies and bridges, among other groups, because the reality is I like I don't think a lot of times I can always change the person I'm interacting who is causing those micro aggressions. It's nice to raise it. So that's helped me, you know, but part of it, too, is as much as possible with a law like my male allies, if they're open to the conversation, like I also do, try to educate there because I think for free, even with my partner who's who's male, we've had conversations, very of scenarios where he's like, oh, well, I thought he was like I was just treating her like one of the boys. And I'm like, well, I don't think first off, you should be treating all the boys like that. But also you should maybe think of it as like a professional work workspace, you know, where your goal as a manager is to just make it a safe environment. So I know none of that, like, really helps, frankly, at the other day. It like it like sucks. And there's been a lot of times where, like, I've which has caused me to kind of like move on to the next opportunity or leave because I'm like, look, if you're not going to treat me my value, then I don't have to deal with this stuff.

Speaker6: [00:24:03] And that's where coming like having personal leverage really, really helps. So whether it's like hustling and like, you know, there's a bunch of people here. Right. Like Joe, Greg, Mark, Kevin, Matt, obviously. Harpreet, I'm trying think see who else is on like Tom's lives. Right. Everyone here is doing some kind of like hustle and that really helps it helps build your leverage and capital so that you can, like, leave situations like that or even just basically sometimes being able to go into a meeting and kindly kind of push back on that person, go, no, I I'm going to take this shit. So that kind of helps me a lot. And so I spent a lot of time on some of the celebrities that like encouraged like the women, independent finance and all that. But but I hear your point, right, which is I like as women, it should not always be up to us to be educating our male counterparts, unlike what is considered safe, appropriate behavior. And that is true for like everything. So all I can say is, you know, like been there, got through it. I do what I can to educate and communicate, but a lot of times. For me, my superpower has just been building up enough leverage so I can say like by so I'm not sure that any of that helps. I'm also hungry, so I'm just going to go back to eating.

Speaker2: [00:25:13] No, I really liked a lot of the things you said it was reminding me. Also, Mark made a comment and the chat of just how how hard it is when you're the person being discriminated against, that you don't have a lot of the capital to be like, you know, because if you're being discriminated against, if you're in a situation where you're being discriminated against and and then you try to speak up, then oftentimes it can just make people hate you more.

Speaker6: [00:25:39] And that's what Greg's like advice about. The advocates like that really, really helps because I had some certain I had some sort of like gnarly situations, like at different companies. I've been at around like harassment, sexism, to be honest, I was kind of useless there, which is unfortunate. But and that's not to say I was useless. But what really helped me was I had like I had allies and advocates in the senior level above those managers who were doing that nonsense. And like I said, but at the end of the day, like, it's all it's kind of like about power and hierarchy. It really is that Machiavellian kind of like, you know, who do you know that? And like, how much power do they have to, like, influence the situation? It would help if we had more women, people of color, LGBTQ and in the leadership ranks. Obviously, that helps kind of sort of pull everyone up. But like Greg's advice there, it's really super key because it'll also help to like something that I thought was really insane, that I learned from one of my jobs was when my business partner said, like, look, deals are never made at the boardroom. Like, that's a common sort of idea is I like, oh, like people go into suits and then they go into the boardroom and they do the presentation, hammer out the deal. But actually what what really happens is like you have these like kind of like side conversations or things that happen outside the boardroom. They're sort of like the whatever like they have like the the conversations happened with the people who are in power. And then the boardroom is just kind of like the performant, the performative exhibition of like that power and influence. And so that's where that aligned advocacy stuff really, really helps.

Speaker4: [00:27:17] And I can add something real

Speaker1: [00:27:18] Quick that definitely that follows you from Nesha. And then we'll go to jail and then again go for it.

Speaker4: [00:27:24] I just want to add some actual stuff that people I do don't identify as one we can take to be outliers. And please correct me anything is the wrong approach is something I've used and talk to my colleagues at AIs woman. But first one noticed, like I said, to chance and notice, if you're standing like people, their ideas being stolen or not being talked to, especially like meeting settings, pay attention. I mean, if you have that report, then goes something like, hey, I noticed this B.S. happening is OK by like like trying to amplify your voice, like do something where you feel comfortable doing that. And then when you're in a meeting, you can be really subtle about it. So someone steals a woman's idea, you can literally be like, oh, those are really cool Harp. I'm not like, hey, that's really cool. Harp Harpreet. I'm just saying something really similar for her earlier. You keep telling your perspective on this as well. So it's like a really subtle like redirect. So like bring the tissue back to them or you'd be like, hey Vivian, I didn't hear you talking to me. I know you worked a lot on this. Like Kitschke, please. Some more weird thoughts are like going actually by bringing them into the conversation, but a really subtle way. But the key thing is like having rapport with them talking like you're like single or married. But that's strategies I've used before and that's what people are like. Well, I've had rapport with notice that both happened.

Speaker1: [00:28:42] I really like that. Mark, thank you so much. That's phenomenal. I like that that idea. Let's hear from Dish on this topic, Manisha. We'll go to Joe and then,

Speaker6: [00:28:52] Hey, maybe I'm quite with you. I have. I've been there and I have experienced both in that kind of setting and in the industry setting a similar thing in the academic setting. What happened was it was a qualifying exam that I'm supposed to get. This happened a couple of years back and the professor actually said, I have two kids, that I had two kids at that time. And they said, if you have two kids, how are you going to do your PhD? That was pretty much the question that he asked me. If he thinks I'm in a classroom exam and there are only three other professors who are there in that room, it's not being recorded. It's not being done anything. So he's asking that. And the rest of the professors, one of whom was a female, she did support me. And she she the end result was essentially the guy who asked me that question. He failed me on the qualifying exam, but the other three passed me. But I have to get a poor pass. Otherwise it's a conditional pass. And that's what happened in that qualifying exam. So I really understand what you're going through. Give me what I did at that point was I quit the program, I just graduated with my master's might be PhD just because of that one guy who affected me so much.

Speaker6: [00:30:17] So, like Mikiko said, there are two ways to go about it. One is to I don't have to take your shit, just one. And the other is to fight back. At that point in time, I was so emotional that I just decided I'm not going to take a shit. And I graduated with my master's with another professor, and then I'm currently pursuing my Ph.D. So I did I did not give up on my dream. I just put it for later. I work for a couple of years in Data in the industry. And then I picked up my feet again. And I'm I'm close to graduation now, so hopefully that helps you and gives you courage to pick whichever option you want to. And the other thing is same thing happens in the industry as well. What I don't work as a finalist in state government job currently while pursuing my beauty on the side. So what I do in situations like this may be manages just take whatever I'm doing. I certainly insert, like Mark said, ask questions during that meeting. And I know he cannot answer because I did the girl.

Speaker6: [00:31:21] Right. So that's one way to go about it as well. And I have learned this along the way, to have those shadow marks as to how to ask questions that would impress, that would actually be meaningful for the audience and at the same time, be my dad, who is taking credit for all the work, cannot really answer that question. So he will have to defer the question to me. And at that time, I insert my own, I guess, words saying this is how I did. So that kind of suddenly thing process on the audience that I did the work. And I've I've seen some in some cases it does work. And the people who actually take the next step, they come back to me rather than my manager. So they send the email to me directly, asking for further research on it or further steps that need to be taken on it. So that's from an industry standpoint. But I'm with you and this happens. It's real world. So it happens all the time. And me being an Asian Indian, it's it was for me, Indian woman, it's really gross. It's a hassle, but I'm getting better at it. I hope that helps you very much. Help you made your decision.

Speaker1: [00:32:35] Thank you very much for sharing that you said let's go to Kristen actually next. And Asha, if you'd like to watch Kristen, let me know and then do. I'll get GetUp's later. OK, go for it.

Speaker6: [00:32:46] So I just wanted to say,

Speaker2: [00:32:48] Of course, this has happened to me too. I think where I notice it is the subtleness

Speaker6: [00:32:53] Of lower expectations.

Speaker2: [00:32:55] And that's what I

Speaker6: [00:32:56] Kind of wanted to speak about before entering this field. I was a teacher and one of the most important things that they talked about was the power of our expectations

Speaker2: [00:33:08] On our students. They actually did a study

Speaker6: [00:33:11] Where they handed a group of students, a group of kiddos, and they said these are the highest performing kids in the second grade and they are amazing. And because the teacher expected them to do better, they did do better. It had they were just regular

Speaker2: [00:33:29] Randomly chosen students.

Speaker6: [00:33:31] And so when I'm thinking about this, I think the real power in danger lies in those male leaders and managers who don't expect more. If you expect less, you get less.

Speaker2: [00:33:45] And it has

Speaker6: [00:33:47] A really dangerous negative cycle. So I think that it's really

Speaker2: [00:33:51] Important for anyone on this call as a manager, as a male,

Speaker6: [00:33:55] To expect more, expect the highest level from all of your female staff, all of your staff, really. But I just think when we're having this conversation, it it really tied into me that study and how truly powerful the person in charge of you is in in determining and affecting your performance level, whether it was in the classroom, when I think I can directly be applied to the workforce.

Speaker1: [00:34:25] Thank you very much for sharing that, Christina. I think that the tyranny of soft expectations or whatever it is, bigotry of low expectations from these guys, it's it's not cool. Asha, would you like to go?

Speaker6: [00:34:38] I've experienced the same thing at work, but that was really on one of the first jobs I had. But for some reason, moving on, I've been lucky enough to have a boss who I haven't had the situation that a lot of the time is one thing. But one thing I learned is you need to speak up on it when it's happening, especially when someone is getting credit for your work. You need to speak up on it when it's happening a lot of the time that. They had, but I had to learn very quickly because I used to let things slide that talk about it later, but moving forward, I've been lucky enough. I don't think I've had that problem. I've had very understanding bosses, if I would call it that, or I've just dodged a bullet for now.

Speaker1: [00:35:20] Thank you very much for sharing that experience. So, Joe, would you like to add

Speaker4: [00:35:25] I think a lot of people have said some awesome things, and it kind of pisses me off that we have to talk about this kind of stuff in this day and age. Right. I mean, where the fuck are all the guys standing up for the women and the companies? You know, we all we all say, you know, it's irritating in some ways. I fault myself for this, too. But, you know, actually, you know, Matt knows me. I usually say something if I see something about working out. Usually are usually on the side of being overly blunt with people. But I mean, you know, just chatting with Matt on Slack about this is crazy. This is the same shit that I had to see throughout my career for 20 years now, women, minorities, even just, you know, I would say men who may have maybe a a weaker disposition, maybe just getting trampled on by other other people. They're just bullying all across the board. And like, where are we men when women are being treated this way? We all we've all seen this in our careers. You know, if you haven't maybe haven't. Actually, I'm making a pretty big assumption. But point being, you know, and what can we do? You know, the you know, the madness in this world to make things better for people like Vivian. Right. Who have to go to work. And she's really frustrated, feels like she's getting bullied. So it's like she's not getting her. Feels like all the work's been stolen from her and isn't getting the recognition or the or the respect, the basic respect that a person deserves in the workplace.

Speaker4: [00:36:43] You know, I mean, what kind of company is that? Where you can't where you can go you go to work and you feel like you can contribute anything, but you feel like if you open your mouth, your ideas are just going to get stolen from you. Right. And you feel like you're less than valuable, not not just as an employee, as a human being that's fucked up, that that's the world that, you know, a lot of a lot of people have to work in right now. So I don't know the solution is, but I have a suspicion that we've been talking the same platitudes for decades. It's getting better. I think it's great that people like Vivian, Mikiko and others and everybody else, all the women in this group actually have a voice now and talk about the stuff. I think in an open forum, I think 10 years ago, that probably wasn't the case 20 years ago. Certainly not. Right. And I'm glad that at least people are talking about this. But then we talk, what are we going to do about it? Right. Absolutely. If you see, like some manager, some dude pulling that kind of stuff, I'm going to tell that guy, you know, what's on your mind? Where are you going to sit there and just pretend it didn't happen and be quiet and continue that trend that's been going on for, I think, way too damn long.

Speaker1: [00:37:41] Yeah, I mean, no one's going to know one if there was a fire you for doing the wrong thing to just speak up. You see some shit going on. You just like speak up. And if they do end up firing you for doing the right thing, then that probably is a shitty place to work for.

Speaker4: [00:37:52] Fuck that place, dude. Mean, I posted the link here. It talked about the Boso event horizon. I mean, for God's sake, this is like encompasses a lot of companies. At a certain point you get out Bozo's and they're like, what's the point in working there? Like your your career progression is really going to be stunted anyway. Like these people aren't going to help you. And there's plenty of other, I would say, enlightened companies coming up where your talents might be a better use. But but you're not supporting these types of companies, too. And other smart people, I think, takes the oxygen out of the room. These companies just wither and die and these dumb shit people, I don't know what happens to them, but at least you'll get to work with them. So that's my rant. Thanks for listening to my TED talk show.

Speaker1: [00:38:29] Absolutely. And then let's go to Vin. And then after Van Gogh, John Sebastian, after John Sebastian, we'll hear from Tom. But in the meantime, if anybody else chime in, please do let me know. Absolutely. Well, I just think you

Speaker3: [00:38:40] Should have said this last time, but pick the quality of your advocate, because everyone has like a red line where they can't go any further or they get fired. And so when you're looking for advocates, look for like my last corporate gig and the culture. There was one of the reasons why I don't do like I don't do jobs anymore. But my team was the only one that was 50 50 male female. It was the only one. I mean, I had the only two nonwhite people. It was that was it. And so I was actually able to any time I saw somebody that was getting bullied, I was able to go and pull that person into my team and just say, hey, why don't you believe me? I've got tons of work once you can work with me. So find advocates that can actually do something for you and are willing to do something for you. Like I had the ability in my position to just build up my team and bring in whoever I wanted to. And, you know, if you were miserable in another role, it was more than happy to have you to look. I said, look at the people who are actually doing something, not just, hey, that's not good. That's not enough. You know, you can't you can't just wag a finger and expect anything to get better. But look for advocates that are actually doing things working and fine advocates that are zero filter, because that's my other problem I have. The reason why I'm against corporate is because I have no filter. And for some reason that works really well in the C suite. But everywhere else that's highly discouraged. And so when I got mad about something like people didn't want me in that room. When I was angry about something and so if you brought a problem to me, I was the person that they didn't want to come and bring that up to their boss. So also find that person with zero filter, because in engineering, there's tons of us with anger issues and no filter

Speaker1: [00:40:19] And an absolute love. It was not going to share this story here on the platform because it's too recent. But Josh Baskin, go for it. Yeah, I

Speaker3: [00:40:28] Just wanted to add something and actually so it might be it may sound a little bit unrelated to what you were saying, but I feel that as a Caucasian male, we do have our own responsibility in that. And interestingly enough, so a month ago, you know, there was this situation that happened in Atlanta and my partner is Asian and we were discussing the situation how awful it was. And I remember thinking that it was obviously awful what happened. You know, I'm definitely pro diversity, obviously, but there's something that I just can't fully understand. And it's not because it's not because I don't want to is just because I've I will never experience the level of of discrimination or the feeling that you are in the part of the minority. Constantly. I remember we went to some like, you know, I would say like counties in which I was the only white dude. And, you know, at some point, even if I was not surrounded by criminals, I was just like normal people is just it feel you feel so much disconnected from your own reality that you feel you start feeling insecure. And that's basically what she was trying to tell me. Bye bye bye. When my girlfriend is sorry, it feels like it's it really does feel like I'm not making much sense.

Speaker3: [00:41:57] But my girlfriend was trying to tell me that the whole situation in Atlanta, that it was way worse than just, you know, just another situation that she felt like very angered by everything. And I was like, of course I understand. But the truth is that I can't really fully understand because I'm not the one who's going outside, being Asian and walking among men, Caucasian men all the time, feeling completely feeling like the minority, like twenty four hours a day. So that being said, the only thing that I wanted to say really with this story is that if you're men and you're pro diversity, I mean support whatever is coming to you. But don't don't pretend that you fully understand. Support it and just go with it. Because ultimately, I mean, you don't you don't really understand what it is. And that's was my acknowledgment with my partner, is that what I get, that I don't get everything? And that's why I want you to feel more comfortable and that's why I'm going to protect you even more from now on. So it's just what I wanted to have, actually. Thank you very

Speaker1: [00:43:09] Much, Tom. And I'm sorry I saw you.

Speaker2: [00:43:13] And I just wanted to add kind of what off of John was saying there, that something that has angered me in the past before when I've tried to, like, speak up or push back more, is that you get a lot of, like, shit from people being like, why do you always going to, like, take it to that place of, like, feminism? Why does it always have to be like that for you? And it's like because I don't have the luxury of forgetting. I don't have the luxury of, like, taking up this cause for a day or two and being like, yeah. And then and then getting tired of it and putting it down like this is my reality. And I'm sure that lots of people feel that way. Like Greg, like every single day has to go to a workplace or live in the world in which she is black and has an accent and like have people belittle him for that and like in his every interaction. So, like, he doesn't have the luxury of, like, putting that down and taking up the cause when he feels like it. So I guess that's just something I wanted that.

Speaker1: [00:44:08] Absolutely. And Tom, go for it. And I mean, look, as I hope this is hope, this is helpful to Vivian. If you know any any point, you just reach out to me at any point when I want to reach out to me. I'm there for you. But, Tom, go for it.

Speaker5: [00:44:24] I'm really glad we're talking about this. And Vivian, I want to check in with you on something. I'm guessing we haven't really come up with any great solutions. It just helps to have some empathy. Is that accurate?

Speaker2: [00:44:38] Yeah, I guess that it's hard for all us people in this room to figure out how to solve this global problem. But it is nice just to talk about it. See, the other than I'm not alone. Other people like to do that. I'm not crazy because that happens a lot, too, is that people try to make you feel like, oh, you're just making too big of an issue of it or something like you're trying to like, see things that aren't there. So like, I'm glad to also have this like. Grounding moment with it to live like other people see it, I'm not crazy like you have empathy for me and you're going to like even even if just the people in this room just say, you know what, today, starting now, I'm going to be better. I'm going to be more aware. Like, I think that is helpful.

Speaker5: [00:45:20] So I had another question. It's to you and the other women and really to anyone else who's felt some type of I don't know what to call it any more. I'll call it bozo ism to show when you face it, when you confront it, does it make it worse or does it sometimes work to confront it? I sympathize with what Mexico's pointing out that, well, it's risky. And, you know, I've got my golden handcuffs on right now. I don't have another option yet. I'm just curious how everyone's feeling. I remember I was going through something. I don't know how big it was in comparison to all, but I finally stood up to my manager and I'm so naive. I went to a friend that I seek counseling from during this time. And he said, Oh, man, you got him scared for these reasons. I wasn't even threatening him. Oh, you mean you meant that towards someone? Yes. And sorry, I know I'm being confusing. I said something that really scared my manager. Like I was going to turn him in for something. I was talking about another individual that was affecting the situation, but I failed to communicate clearly anyway. I finally stood up. But I think I just got lucky if I had stood up any other way. Vivian, I think it might have just hurt me. And I'm just wondering, those of you that have stood up to these situations, how often did it come off?

Speaker1: [00:46:39] Ok, that's an excellent question.

Speaker5: [00:46:42] And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. I'm just curious because I feel frustrated with this talk in a way yet.

Speaker1: [00:46:49] Oh, definitely. And let me Mikiko, I'll get to you after I turn over here to Asia. But when you do get a chance to to get on air, tell us about some of these organizations you had mentioned in the chat as well.

Speaker6: [00:47:02] I said go for it. From my experience, I've found that speaking up helped, but it's different for everyone. You deal with different people. It might go differently. For my sister, it went differently. But for me, after I spoke up and consistently kept at it, I found that the more I spoke up, the more I challenged the status quo, the more comfortable I became, the more respect I got. For me, it worked. But for some people it might not work. It might aggravate the whole situation. But for me, it went very well. I spoke up when I saw it happening. I spoke up right there. And then I didn't let it pass. And I did it consistently, consistently, consistently that I found things changed. They had to change. If they didn't change, I consistent and speak up when it's to the day the company and go to somewhere else.

Speaker4: [00:47:46] I still consistently

Speaker6: [00:47:47] Pick up on it. And it changed for me. Kieko. Yeah, so I think so it like it honestly it just depends on the moral character of the person and the company. So for example, I worked at this one Starbright that was started in Tel Aviv, but they had to serve SKO office. And there I think a lot of times there were moments of miscommunication. But I think that came out of the fact that like and like my Israeli colleagues were telling me this, you know, they're saying that like, oh, you know, Americans are very soft and how they speak and how they communicate. And for them, it was like they're like, we want you to get to the point and we want you to just, like, get there. Right. And we want you just ask. So there it was kind of like like I had to learn how to advocate for myself in a cross cultural environment. Right. Like I had to sort of kind of adapt the way I was operating to the way they were operating, just because any and it was funny because I had a few meetings with, like some of my male Israeli colleagues. And I remember going, like, man, these guys are rude. And then, of course, like then I was working with the director of finance was a woman and she was the exact same way. And and it was funny. I was like she said to me, she's like, you know, she's like, I like you. She's like, you're very direct for an American. I'm like, OK, OK.

Speaker6: [00:49:07] So maybe I see what's going on here. Right. So there, for example, I think it was not it was not a case of of like someone just intentionally trying to be rude or trying to sort of fulfill their own kind of insecurities. It was just literally like we had to just like kind of code switch on some of the stuff. So there I think it worked out fine. But like, I had some more extreme circumstances, right, where I worked at this one company and I was like harassed for six months. And it caused me extreme, like mental harm to the point where I had to go get like therapy for like I had PTSD, like all the other stuff, you know. And it was interesting because I thought my story was sort of very isolated. But then I started building avid advocates and allies. And then they they're telling me that, first off, they happen to love women. And it was I think it was really a company culture issue. Right. Because then around that time, they had like this anonymous letter, anonymously signed whatever by like. People who had said, look, we had experienced this a company, and so there I think it was there's like permissiveness in the system which allowed for a lack of individual accountability. And for some of those individuals, they were like they were never going to, like, apologize. Right. So I think it just it really depends on, like, where that person is coming from. Are they are they doing it intentionally or do they have something to prove? And I mentioned like there's like a story, right? Like I had this one interview where, like this guy like I had kind of star treatment as an equal in an interview.

Speaker6: [00:50:36] He didn't like that. So I try to sort of modulate it was like, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, maybe I don't understand the definition of logistic regression. Could you could you please educate me? And for that person, like I can kind of like I could get a sense of, like, OK, if I have to work with this person, this might be what like but apparently they loved the interview. It wasn't even that like they're like, oh yeah, it doesn't jive. They're like, oh yeah. This was a great interview. I'm like, no, no, we ain't doing this. So it just depends, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. At the end of the day, I feel like you can't always trust that it's going to work out. You just have to have like you just have to have leverage. Like, that's what I feel like for some people. That's what they respect is how much power and leverage you have. And for others, it's just, you know, if you can kind of like educate. But, you know, that's kind of my sense. But, yeah, I mean, like I mentioned, some words like, you know, in the chat. And what I found is that sometimes it's just I've had to, like, build those allies and some of these environments just because it's a lawless, lawless. Well, you know, so. Yeah.

Speaker1: [00:51:36] So like that that leverage. Talk to us about that concept of leverage in a role when we feel like we're in a situation where maybe is how can we we find points of leverage and what would that all that look like so we can identify that whenever we come across it? Right. That makes sense.

Speaker6: [00:51:53] Yeah, I know. Absolutely. And I I'll just say one little bit and I feel like there are other people on this call actually who could even talk more about leverage. Like one form of leverage is just like personal financial capital. So I have this one coworker had this one coworker because I had a different job. He's still but, you know, he was doing work. So he he just first off, he's he's an experienced professional in the design small space. He's been doing machine learning research for twenty years. But he was he's doing like corporate dashboards and like financial benchmarking. And we would all look and we're like, what is going on here? Like, why are you here? And so for him, he's he's got a house in Palo Alto fully paid up. He's got cash. He says he makes more money on the weekends doing like crypto just for Fonzie's. So he's just there. So he's like so he so we ask him, we're like, at what point do you decide you no longer want to it? He's like, I can wake up the next day and decide I don't want to do this. And he's like, I just go and like I go help out with one of my buddies with their companies. Right. That's so I'm like, that's that's like that's leverage, but it's leverage in the form of both professional capital. Right. Because he's had a number of years of working for both my I'm not gonna say the names for a bunch of the phone companies doing really senior research. Right.

Speaker6: [00:53:07] So that kind of there's a professional capital, which is that he can go get a new job. But he he also has that network capital. He has those relationships. And there's a book called I Never Eat Alone or something like. Yeah, and I think that book talks about it. There's another book. Your net worth is your network. That's another good one. So you have professional, you have your relationships and then you have financial. Romit Sudie, he talks about this tripod of stability where he says you need kind of like three points in your life to will ensure its stability. But to give you kind of that pivot power to be able to make those decisions. And that's just kind of how I approach things, because and if you think about your job title, for example, like years ago those days, scientists, now it's Data Analyst Day, scientists, Emelle A.M. research the titles change, but your body of work and your experiences, those keep being pulled forward. I mean, everyone here probably has had, like, you know, has had like maybe eight to ten different titles just just by function of the industry changing so much. But your body of work, the relationships that you build, you know, that you kind of just take with you like Ford. So that's how I think about it. I think about it both as my arsenal of, you know, what can I can I just can I exit the situation? And if, you know, you can exit the situation, then that gives you more strength to exercise voice.

Speaker1: [00:54:27] But yeah. Thank you for that. Appreciate that. Mikiko matorin it back over to Vivian. Vivian, if you had any other questions or comments,

Speaker2: [00:54:35] This was awesome. I'm so glad I brought it up and we talked about it. I was kind of nervous at first that people would I don't know. I don't know why I thought that, because you guys have been a very supportive and friendly and helpful group. So thank you so much. I feel like I need to colton this chat. So many people were like dropping good resources and stuff. So I want to thank you, everybody.

Speaker1: [00:54:53] Definitely a bell, but this one, I will be sure to share the chat as well. Well, I'm glad we discussed that. It was super important. Thank you for always asking. Raising questions and bringing shit up, I love it, we love it, so we'll do the question that Mark had because you're in the queue from the beginning of the conversation. So go for it, man.

Speaker4: [00:55:14] How do I follow this? Such as such a great conversation. I really appreciate you bringing that up because it's the same conversations really impact me as well as identifying as a person of color. So again, I really felt this made me feel really special as well. So I really appreciate that. For me, switching is back to true analytics and I currently just got a huge dump of Salesforce data into a data warehouse, which is super exciting. And essentially I'm using that Data concept as to why this Truls I'm trying to bring in upgrader warehouse are are useful. And so I literally just got the dump of Data yesterday. I haven't had a chance to look at it, but I know there's a lot of other people view Salesforce Data before this done sales work. I'm just curious, like, what do you think will be some interesting questions or low hanging fruit that you think will be interesting to the sales team? I know you don't have access to my data. I know what's available. It's more so it's high level. Some like for some key questions you think about when you're first of all, to explore some Data. I haven't worked with sales data before.

Speaker1: [00:56:24] So I was thinking about this when I was I was just doing research into like sabermetrics and the the way that they're using analytics analytics to score teams I found really interesting. And I thought maybe you could draw some parallels to sales for that. So, for example, one of the features they use in sabermetrics. So this is talking about baseball as they try to get the expected win rate or something like that. I can't remember off the top of my head, but there's some notion of this thing called Pythagorean expectation. Right. And it's supposed to measure like how probability is to to win a particular deal. If that makes sense, I'll find some resources for sure and I'll think it over. But that's just how I've taught my head. Anybody have any tips here for sales? Data mean, apart a great go for it, Marc.

Speaker4: [00:57:14] It's definitely exciting, man. I used to support a team of sales folks, and I can tell you the first thing you need to do is interview them, ask them what matters to them, how do they spot, you know, great prospects and kind of figure out what what do they do to make quick decisions? You would have to interview them first to see how you can tailor a package for them so they can use that to take action. So that's going to get you there. Another thing I know they like something like price segmentations, right? So they want to see who's bringing in the big bucks and they want a bucket AIs goes right according to price and also what kind of profit these customers are bringing in. So most of the time you'll see that long tail, right? Twenty first big companies, they generate 80 percent of the company's revenue or something like that. And then the tail. What can we do about the tail? Where are we bleeding and all that stuff? So those are the low hanging fruit that you can get. But at the end of the day, you want to start with the when the team first kind of understand their process, how do they leverage Data to do their job and what makes them tick? And then you go from there and then you go after the Data to go after the low hanging fruit. That's so good to hear because I talked to them last month, which is great. I have those use cases, but like, I really love the price segmentation, the bleeding on the scale.

Speaker1: [00:58:43] Super helpful. Mark, I'd dump some resources here to chat for you that takes concepts from sabermetrics apply to sales. I think there's interesting parallels there for sure that are worth investigating. Joe, go for it.

Speaker4: [00:58:54] Yeah, actually, my first job as a sales analyst. So it's interesting. So what I also learned I get some great points to follow on to that. Understand how the salesperson is compensated. Right. You speak their language and that's, you know, sales people only care about one thing. That's their that's their recognition and their bonus. They do not care about anything else. They're pressed for time. And if you understand how they're compensated and what their incentives are, you'll be able to produce great reports and analytics for them. That said, you know, I also found that my relationship with salespeople was best when I obviously get them the information they need. Right, to the 20 percent that will yield eighty percent of results, but also come to them with some interesting tidbits which could move the needle in a direction that that helps them with their compensation. So maybe one company we're selling consumer electronics. And so it's. Did you know that at these stores maybe you're Costco's, you know, by channel, maybe show like, OK, so these different colorways are selling really well, maybe show that these are they're selling online versus offline. And so then you can start trying to. And so I think giving salespeople a leading edge, they can go to their customers. That also helps. They, like every salesperson, wants an edge that they can use to win over, you know, the customer, because it's it's highly competitive right now, almost every industry right now. We got a lot of technology companies. I do a salespeople every day, and they're always looking for even the slightest point, five percent percentage. They'll give them sale, they'll take it. But the baseline always starts with a plan and every company is different. So you have to understand that sales were just compensated because literally the only thing they care about, if you don't if you give them information that applies to their car plan, they'll love you if you come to them with a bunch of random numbers and stuff. Your dad, so, so good luck.

Speaker1: [01:00:45] And so pretty much don't take my egghead statistical approach for it. First, find out how it is that they get paid and then try to help them optimize that. I like that approach.

Speaker4: [01:00:55] Well, I actually took your egghead approach that first started because I want to show off how smart I was. Very stupid idea. Yeah.

Speaker1: [01:01:03] So, Mark, was that helpful? I think it's super helpful.

Speaker4: [01:01:06] I took notes. I'll pay someone to the chat. Right.

Speaker1: [01:01:10] Any other questions from anyone? I don't have anything else in the queue. So if anybody has a question, you can just go ahead. Feel free to. You don't even have to have a question. Do you have any comments based on the previous discussion we're having? Please, by all means, now is the time for you guys to, uh, to go for it. The floor is wide open for you guys and keep on talking until I see somebody underneath the microphone, and that is Mikiko. Go for

Speaker6: [01:01:32] It. Yeah. So sales metrics. Yeah. That was like three years of my life. Yeah. I would check out if you want some ideas. So I put some book recommendations in there. The one I would definitely recommend is like is cracking the sales management code because what it does is it actually talks about like essentially the different sort of concerns that typically are in sales and like the different metrics that people use to measure it. That one is super nice. As Joe said, compensation comp comp comp is like amazing. And I feel like whenever I've talked to like a sales, whenever I've talked to like a like a VP of revenue or whatever, the thing that like the dream they always want to get to is, is to be able to go from like the marketing funnel to a sales funnel to like the like the clothes revenue and then to get that to like the comp. Right. If you if you can tie that with like head count and like hiring and like ramping, then they're like, oh my God, that's the dream. So that's like

Speaker4: [01:02:32] With Kharazi, that's a marketing funnel to sales and to the clothes.

Speaker6: [01:02:36] Yeah. So so one thing that's like super helpful and this goes back to like talking to sales as like Greg and Joe both mentioned is like understanding just the operational processes of how they do business, like how are they making money and like what are the levers that they can sort of manipulate in order to do so. Yeah, it's like if you don't have that mental model, then it's kind of like with the with marketing and sales growth, like you can kind of just rabbit hole on a bunch of different things without like sort of driving value. So starting with that, like, mental model of how the business actually works. And it depends for every type of business. Right. For example, if they are like subscription, if they're, for example, B2B versus like B2C versus like B2B, B2C, like, there are different things. Or, for example, if they're domestic or international, all those things impact the like frame like the framework of what's going on with the business and how they make money. So that's like the first thing is like making sure you understand, like the business level of it, because once you understand the business level, once you understand, like the core sort of problems and stages, then a lot of times the actual the design machine learning parts are not that hard, you know, because a lot of times it's just like, can you like forecast or can you like, you know, classify or can you do sorts of things like low hanging fruit projects? So that's the first thing.

Speaker6: [01:03:59] And it's coming of talking to people and also doing some sort of like literature and also looking at companies that are sort of, you know, in that space. So, for example, Clarey, that's in Clary's a is a is a product where they specifically focus on like sales dashboards and metrics and analytics. And so their blog is a really good resource for different things. I listed a bunch of the books. The top ones, I'd say are Lean Analytics, compensating the sales force, cracking the sales management code, and then also something about how to find the book. It's like something like coming up with the comp plan that your CFO loves but your salespeople hate or vice versa or something like that. So I would check those out. Once you understand the business model, understand the different stages, you know, so and the terminology. And that's stimulus, how I got a lot of my jobs in in analytics. It wasn't because I was a good analyst. I was probably terrible, but it was because I understood, like, how I could talk to people for whatever reason. So once you have that, then understanding sort of we're at different stages they care about and then what are the metrics there? Because everything ultimately just comes down to like conversion rates. And then also understanding like like average value and things like that. But that's my yeah. That's my two cents.

Speaker1: [01:05:18] Thank you very much. And shameless self promotion. The author of Lean Analytics was a guest on the Ask This podcast allegorical. Go and listen to that if you have not yet already.

Speaker4: [01:05:29] Thank you so much for everyone dropping gems for me and set me up. Well, my career.

Speaker1: [01:05:34] Yeah. Yeah. Let's go Greg then Joe. And then last call for questions. You can put it into the chat first.

Speaker4: [01:05:42] Yeah. I just want to say, like the other thing I would, I would say, Mark, anyone else doing sales, analytics, sales people are always asking me who should I talk? Like who who is the linchpin in a company. Right. Who's the influencer that's going to help get the sale? Who should I talk to? I think if you can get really good, this is like an underappreciated part of a sales analytics. I think it's like figuring out the graph of a company and org chart and then figure out who to talk to and who you can suggest a salesperson talk to. I know that's part of their job. A lot of things are part of their job and know salespeople are really lazy in a good way. They're lazy like me. They so but, you know, if you if you can make suggestions in terms of yeah. I think these are like the top five people you should be focusing on at this company or sales, you will be you're going to go places for sure. You may even be able to start a company around that. So that tends to be like I would say, the biggest request is just how to navigate a company hands down, because like knowing your historical sales and like knowing what products are selling. Well, that's one thing. But who who to talk to to get the sale sales is almost a hundred percent of time. It's it's a communication game. There's no data science to it. It's it's just talking.

Speaker1: [01:06:50] So that mind. Yeah, absolutely. It's great. Go for it.

Speaker4: [01:06:55] Yeah. I really like what, what, what you said earlier about the edge. Right. So sales folks, they really love having that edge. So one thing I know for sure for me that I saw is they liked to have the ins and outs of what the competitors just doing, like, for example, price wise or marketing wise, you know, portfolio offering type value package that competitors are offering. So if you can get those faster than they can for them and kind of help them with that inside info or any info out on the outside market, they can use that because to me, somebody in sales, they they use tricks, mind tricks, man. They kind of like mini psychologists that, you know, puts you in the inside of a funnel that helps, you know, that forces you to make a quick decision and they get trained for that. So if you give them the edge that Joe is talking about, I think is going to make their lives, they're going to become more effective. The other thing that I see as a downside, though, for B2B and I don't know how about B2C? What I've seen in B2B is that Salesforce will develop some sort of relationship with with with customers to to some point their own detriment.

Speaker4: [01:08:15] So you will be close to the numbers. You will see that some prices are optimized in that you will kind of experience some sort of bleeding where you feel like this. This customer isn't purchasing enough or shouldn't be priced like this. The price should go up. And when you going to push back to the sales folks, even though they know the profit will come through to the company, because that's the easiest thing you could do. Increasing prices has a bigger impact on the company than saving cost at the back end. But increasing a price can rupture the relationship between your company and the customer, especially if it's a B2B. So sales will fight you for that because they they feel like it's a it's a sensitive relationship that you're asking them to potentially break. So you're going to have to kind of navigate this area for them to to help them understand where to make a price impact and other things like that.

Speaker1: [01:09:14] Mark, hopefully that was helpful for you. And you can start making trillions of dollars with all this advice because it is a goal that is the goal that any last minute questions here? I didn't see any in the chat, so I assume there are no more questions. All right, guys. Well, thank you very much for hanging out and sticking with us today. Guys, check out the interview I released with John Kate Thompson, the legend himself talking about how to build analytics teams. And he tuned in to the podcast. Got a bunch of awesome stuff happening, guys. Remember, you've got one life on this planet and so do you. And you and that person, those two over there and that person in the corner. Yep. One life on this planet down there in the bottom. Yes. You also got one life on this planet. We all got one life on this planet. So while we are here. Why don't we just treat each other with some respect, some love, some kindness, treat us all as equals, because realistically the universe has been around for, what, 14 billion something years? I'm thirty eight. I was thirty eight or 14 billion. Very fucking infinitesimally small. Right. So Miles will make those, whatever, 80 to 120 years we got on this planet, lifting each other up, not making this shitty for other people. I so take care. Everybody have the rest of the weekend and I'll see you next week. Cheers.