Lara Pence_mixdown.mp3 Lara: [00:00:00] Whatever we can do to actually, like, connect to our fellow man and woman is really, really important. And exercise and activity is a big way to do that. And the community serves our mental health. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, it doesn't really matter. Being around people serves you and allows you to feel like you're part of something like a belonging, right? So I think in all those ways, activity and exercise is huge for individuals who are just really trying to establish a baseline of mental health. Harpreet: [00:00:40] What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Artists of Data Science Podcast, the only self development podcast for data scientists you're going to learn from and be inspired by the people, ideas and conversations that will encourage creativity and innovation in yourself so that you can do the same for others. I also host Open Office Hours. You can register to attend by going to Bitly.com/adsoh forward slash a. Ds0h. I look forward to seeing you all there. Let's ride this beat out into another awesome episode and don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Our guest today is a licensed clinical psychologist who has spent the last decade helping individuals peel back the layers of their outer shell. Cast aside unhealthy patterns that are keeping them stuck and unfulfilled, and start on a path to a new, more resilient and adventurous sense of self. She's completed both her doctoral and MBA, both completed at the same time from Weidner University and [00:02:00] has been featured in various publications and media outlets such as Good Morning America, the BBC, Glamor, Vogue, WebMD, Psychology Today and The Huffington Post. You might recognize her as host of the Spartan Mind podcast, where she serves up helpful tools for individuals looking to improve their mental toughness and acuity. Today, she's here to help us learn how to move away from comparison and self-loathing and towards connection, self investment and ultimately success. So please help me in welcoming our guest today, the chief mind doc for Spartan and founder of A Life Box, Dr. Laura Pence. Dr. Laura, thank you so much for taking time out of schedule to be on the show today. I appreciate having you here. Lara: [00:02:49] Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super stoked for this conversation. Harpreet: [00:02:54] I am as well. It's been a long time in the works and I'm super excited to have you here. Before we get into some of the questions that that women chat about, let's just learn a little bit more about you. So talk to us a little bit about where you grew up and what it was like there. Lara: [00:03:08] Yeah. So I was actually born in Colorado and we stayed here for about my first three years of life, and I don't admittedly remember much about it other than a big bathtub that I probably was in when I was a tiny little baby. And when I was three, we moved over to the East Coast to a small little town called Hanover, which is actually the location of Dartmouth College. My father got a job working at Dartmouth as the director of film, and so I grew up like in this adorable town that, you know, had one little main street on it. And actually where my house was, was even a town over with less people with like a tiny little general store, you know, that had like penny jar candy and all that. So it was a fantastic upbringing for my perspective. I lived, you know, not actually, as I mentioned in [00:04:00] the town of Hanover, but a little bit away from it in in the middle of like a forest. And so for me, exploration and discovery and curiosity, which I'm sure we'll get to in a little bit, was a big part of my childhood, just going out into the woods, like being in nature, being active, moving my body, exploring how things worked in that way. Like that was a big, a big thing for me. So I look back on my childhood and, you know, oftentimes these people will say things like, Oh, middle school is horrible for every child. Or I, you know, I can't believe they're in high school. Like everybody gets through high school. Like, it's so hard. And I just feel so lucky because I feel like so much of my childhood was just doused with positivity and with with really amazing experiences. So that's kind of where I started everything. Harpreet: [00:04:46] But when you were in high school, what did you think your future would look like? Were you always all about the mental toughness and resilience game? Were you always into psychology? Like, you know, what did you think you're going to be into when you're in high school? Lara: [00:04:59] Yeah. So actually it was in eighth grade when my interest was piqued in human behavior. We took like a human behavior course where we learned all about different aspects of human behavior and social psychology. And, and I really like started just becoming interested in the way that people worked. And I was also in high school, somebody that didn't mind being alone. So, you know, after school I would walk up to where my parents office was and I would there was this gentleman outside that like sold hot dogs and egg rolls from a cart on the street. And I would often get an egg roll and just sit and watch people. And that was like when I was 14 and 15 years old. Like definitely a time when I feel like kids actually have a difficult especially nowadays have a difficult time being by themselves. So for me, like, I mean, it's really funny how I wanted to I didn't really know the name for it, but I wanted to study humans for a pretty long time and I also wanted to be creative. My parents were in the business of film, and [00:06:00] so for me, I always grew up watching movies. I mean, literally, like almost every single night we would watch a movie as a family. And so I, I really enjoyed like the idea of story and telling a story and creating. So that was really interesting to me. So I wasn't exactly sure maybe what my future would look like, but I was pretty sure that I would do something creative and also work with people. So turns out that's what happened. Harpreet: [00:06:26] That's awesome. I love that you kind of, you know, journey led you to. The stuff that you really, really enjoy doing. And I think it's fascinating that you love to study humans because we are interesting, interesting creatures. And one of the things I find so interesting about us is, for better or worse, that we always like to compare ourselves to others. So what is it? What is it about humans that make us always go through this, this comparison thing? Lara: [00:06:50] Yeah. So it's interesting because I think, you know, in my line of work, one of the things that I often try and do is sort of like normalize human behavior, right? And the things that we do, because I think a lot of individuals feel like a lot of the things that they do feels not normal or why do I always do this? Or How come I'm always doing that right? And comparison is one of those things. And oftentimes people will come into my office and they'll say, you know, why do I compare? Like, I just I want to stop comparing. I don't understand why I compare so much. And this in comparison is like a really normal human element, you know, it's an element of life that we all engage in. And one of the reasons why I think we engage in it is because we're curious about where we land in the world. I mean, at the most basic level, our brain is looking for patterns all the time, right? I mean, it's why in kindergarten, like the most you know, the best activity for little kids is to sort the circles with the circles and the squares with the squares and the triangles with the triangles. Like we look for patterns, we look for areas of belonging. Lara: [00:07:50] And so we're constantly, I think, kind of scanning the world, wondering where do we belong and where do we fit in? And oftentimes, like our most natural way to do that [00:08:00] and mechanism to do that is through social comparison. You know, how do I compare to this person? How do I compare to that person? Where it gets us into trouble is when we begin to attach our worth and value to what somebody else is doing. So somebody else is doing X, but I'm only doing Y, which means that there are more worthy or valuable than I am. And then negativity bias can step in, right? And we can start to focus on the things that we don't like about ourselves or want to fix about ourselves or the things that scare us. So there's a bunch of things that can actually make comparison pernicious, but at its most basic level, it's a really common and natural human position to be in, which is just to sort of, you know, and this moves into curiosity, but like where where do I belong in the world and how do I measure up against the people that I'm with, for better or for worse? Harpreet: [00:08:48] It's interesting that we kind of default to like this almost zero sum game mentality when it comes to certain aspects of things. So my self, being a content creator, podcaster, writer, there's all these other various things I do that require people's attention. I kind of go through this, this comparison thing myself, but then it's like, you know, like just because somebody else has a bigger audience doesn't take away from my ability to have an audience. You know, if somebody else is talking the same topics that I'm talking about and they've got a bigger audience, if anything, they're attracting more people to it. So it's just this little mindset shift. I'm just wondering, can we walk through a live compare like, you know, can we work through my comparison issues on the air? Is that is that something you want to explore with a couple of questions? So so like, you know, so there's some of us out there who might be going through these comparison issues and kind of don't know the first steps to how to resolve this or at least make it less painful. You know, we walk through it just to demonstrate. That'd be great. Lara: [00:09:45] Yeah, absolutely. So one of the one of the first things that I would like ask you, for example, is if you're comparing yourself to other podcasters. Right. One of the things that I would ask you is like, what are you looking for? You know? So like when you compare [00:10:00] yourself, what, what are you looking for? Harpreet: [00:10:03] I guess like just the vanity metrics of, okay, I'll go to so-and-so's person's LinkedIn and see, okay, does this person have engagement that's like. Ten. Miner when word of the miner there follow account counts more or you know on their YouTube channel or they have more YouTube views to meet things like that kind of vanity metrics. Lara: [00:10:22] Yeah. So, so then I would sort of interpret that as I'm, I am looking to see whether or not I'm doing enough, you know, whether or not I'm doing enough in this space compared to other people who were also in the space. Right. So then I would ask you to sort of reflect well, okay, so let's look at your own personal metrics like let's take away for a minute the social metrics of what other people are doing and dove into your own personal metrics to you. What would enough look like? Harpreet: [00:10:51] Right? Yeah. That's that's a thing like. Lara: [00:10:54] Hard. Harpreet: [00:10:54] Right? Haven't defined enough to me. Enough is like all the views like all of them. Like 1 million on each video and each episode, like, you know, just absurdly high numbers for me. Lara: [00:11:05] So that would be okay. So that's enough. So I would maybe reframe that as like, I wonder if that's idealized, like that's your idealized version of enough, right? So like in an ideal world, this would be enough for me. But let's just take a look then at last week. So last week your personal metrics were X, so compared. Let's shift the comparison to other and move you into a comparison of self. So compared to last week's, what would this week's metrics look like to be enough for you? Does that make sense? Like you kind of shift away from the other and then you begin to compare with your own sense of self, with your own activity, with your own productivity or efficiency or what you're looking for. Because the idea is to the idea is to move it away from the social and back to the individual so that you can begin to sort of dial in on what matters to you. Because oftentimes when we compare, we are starting, we can get really sucked in to the vortex of what matters to somebody else instead of what matters to [00:12:00] you. So I would ask you to sort of reflect on like so based off of last week's personal metrics, how might this week's metrics look if they were good enough? Harpreet: [00:12:09] So kind of like just reframing what a baseline I guess is. Lara: [00:12:13] Like just that's a that's a great way of saying it. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, again, like I think that question of what are you looking for is a really good place for people to start, because oftentimes it is some kind of validation. Like I'm either looking for validation that I'm doing enough or I'm looking for validation that I belong or I look, I'm looking for validation that I've put in enough work, right? So I think really starting there is like a good way for people to start to just unravel the thread a little bit. You're never necessarily going to like land on an answer for why you might be comparing or how to make it like better exactly in this moment. But I think if you keep pulling on threads and get really curious about it, you can start to pivot and shift your mindset and in ways that are more productive. Harpreet: [00:13:06] Thank you very much. Yeah, I appreciate that. That's definitely give me a lot to think about and hopefully helping somebody in the audience kind of work through any issues they might be having with that. Speaking to my audience, a lot of them are are definitely future leaders, if not already current leaders, you know, senior level management type of level, things like that. As we move up the chain in responsibility, you know, it can get tempting for us to take on more and more responsibilities, right? Lara: [00:13:30] Oh, yeah. Harpreet: [00:13:31] How do we manage that? I know at some point we need to start saying no, but how? How do we go about saying no? Why is it important that we are able to say no? Lara: [00:13:39] Yeah, so I think one of the things that I like to focus on, because I'm definitely admittedly a person that can sometimes take on too much because I love saying yes to things and I love sort of the excitement of new projects and working with different people and challenging myself in different ways. But one of the things that I really have to dial [00:14:00] into when I find myself kind of in that position where I know I'm saying yes to things that maybe are a little bit lukewarm for me is that in order for me to have like a super solid all in, yes, I have to have a bunch of nodes that came before that and I'll give you a perfect example of that. So in my practice that I built in Dallas, Texas, when I lived there, I live now live in Colorado, I built it very quickly and it was quite successful in a very short amount of time, and I was able to sustain that success for about eight years. And in my eighth year I started to realize that I wasn't like dialing in as much to my creative side as I wanted to, and I could just feel myself wanting more. And I stopped and really had to like ask myself, am I giving myself enough space for me to create or am I just grinding over and over again every single day after day by seeing, you know, 8 to 10 patients every day and working with clients around the clock? Am I giving myself enough space to actually create? And maybe is that why I'm feeling not as creative as I would like to be? Because I'm not even giving myself space. Lara: [00:15:12] So the answer I came to was yes. So I started to set more no's. I started to say no to more referrals. I started to say no to more companies that wanted to take me on to help them with projects. And lo and behold, and I mean, this is like the universe working in very bizarre ways right around that time, like I would say probably about two weeks after I really started like moving towards some pretty firm no's on things, I received a phone call from Spartan Race, which is where Joe DeSanto, who's the co author of my new book, he owns the Business. And and they came to me with sort of a proposition. And because I had said no to all these little things along the way, I could say a very big yes to something that they wanted me to do with them. [00:16:00] And it completely pivoted and changed my career in the direction that I wanted to go, which was to be more creative, to do sort of more interesting and challenging projects, rather than just be sitting in an office doing client work for 8 to 10 hours a day. Lara: [00:16:14] So but it was all of those nos that allowed me to be able to say yes, because if I hadn't set those nos, if I hadn't set those boundaries, then I probably wouldn't have said yes because I would not have had the time to say yes. So I think when when individuals, especially those that are rising to the top, keep thinking like, well, if I just keep saying yes and yes and yes, I'll climb the ladder faster and I'll climb the ladder, you know, in a way that, like really speeds me to the top. But I think the truth is that we have to be able to create space for things that we do not know are going to happen. And that's scary for people often because they like predictability and they like consistency. But I do think that if we begin to just have that perspective of if I allow space so that I can have a really big, solid, firm, enthusiastic, yes, then it's going to it's going to make me feel a little bit more comfortable in setting those firm no's along the way. Harpreet: [00:17:11] Yeah, I like that. It reminds me of this this quote from somebody I look up to, naval ravikant, he says. Busy calendar and a busy mind will destroy your ability to do great things in the world. Lara: [00:17:22] And yes. Harpreet: [00:17:23] You've got to be able to say, say no to a lot of, you know, small things like you mentioned. Absolutely love that. I mean, that's because I get bombarded with a lot of messages from people trying to have bits and pieces of my attention. And it's like I just got into the habit of saying no, but sometimes I feel bad about saying no. Lara: [00:17:40] Sure. Well, but I think you I think you raise a really good point, a really important point, which is like saying saying no, doesn't doesn't ever necessarily get better and easier and more comfortable. And oftentimes, I think people are afraid to say no or turn down projects or turn down opportunities, or when the boss says, hey, can you lean in one [00:18:00] more time here? You know, people are afraid to say no because they think that it's going to ruin their chance at something. Right? It's going to ruin my chance at a promotion. It's going to ruin my chances, this relationship. It's going to ruin my chance to do this. And so they say, yes, out of fear. And I think, you know, so. So when we say no, the fear is going to be there still the it's just going to be a different kind of fear, like, oh, great. Now I said no to that. Is my boss going to be really angry with me, even though that's an appropriate boundary to set or. Oh, I said no to that client. What if another client doesn't come knocking on my door? Right. So there's I think what we what we have to sort of understand and I think this ties into a lot of what I talk about in general. Like we have to be able to tolerate the distress of setting something like a boundary that's actually really healthy for us. Just because we do something that actually is the right thing for us doesn't mean that sometimes it doesn't make us uncomfortable. Harpreet: [00:18:55] Implicit in that saying knows that the fact that when you say no, you're making a decision like you're making a decision to say no. And decision making is definitely an important aspect of data science, especially at the leadership level. You've got to make decisions, you've got to make them well because, you know, the consequences could could cost in many different ways. I wonder if you can share some ways for us to improve our decision making process. Lara: [00:19:20] Yeah, sure. So to me, I mean, I think in decisions like what want to not in decisions as a word, but in decision making, one of the things that I like to encourage my clients to focus on is their value system. And so what I mean by that is that we all have like a set of principles through which we choose to live our life. Right? And oftentimes, actually, people go throughout life and they don't really even dial in to what those principles are. So I would encourage everybody who's listening to first and foremost, like begin to recognize your values. What what are the principles by which you choose to live your life? And then in a decision making process, one of the things that I encourage my clients, the businesses that I work with to do is to ask themselves [00:20:00] during, you know, at decision points, right? When they've come to a point where a decision has to be made to ask themselves, like, how does this decision, X or this decision, why align with my value? Which one aligns more? Which one in which one aligns more in a way that I feel really good about or really an integrity about. So I think for for many people, that's like a really good first step in decision making is really understanding your values and asking like, is this in alignment with my values? So for example, if I get a client that wants to work with me, let's say it's a business, but the business maybe doesn't necessarily have a mission that I can kind of get on board with. Lara: [00:20:41] And integrity is one of my values. Then I have to ask myself, would working for this company or consulting with this company be in alignment with my value of integrity? And if the answer is no, then the decision, even though maybe it's not an easy one, because let's say it's a lot of money and it could be really interesting, challenging work, then the decision might have to be. Yes, because it's not in alignment with my values. So I think that's one thing that's always helpful for people. I think the other thing that can be helpful for people in making decisions and this goes back to kind of what we just talked about is setting a boundary with yourself around the time that you can spend on making that decision, because oftentimes people will rotate over and over again and become circular in their head about what they want to do and what they want to do and what they want to do. Lara: [00:21:28] And weeks could go by before they make a decision. And so I do think that when it comes to certain decisions in your life, a timeline is really important and a boundary around, okay, by this day I'm going to make a choice about this. And, you know, I mean, obviously sometimes those time limits are imposed on you anyway. For example, if you're getting hired for a job, you know, obviously they might say we need to know by this time. But I do think that for us, boundaries can also be really important in decision making. And then the last thing I would say is that to sort of have the perspective [00:22:00] of, you know, what if in this situation there wasn't a right decision? Right. Because I think oftentimes where we get stuck in analysis, paralysis is like, well, what's the right decision? Right. We try and search? Is decision or is choice a the right decision or is choice be the right decision? And I would encourage individuals to ask themselves, what if there was no right decision? What if there was just a decision? And so to sort of remove that idea that there's a judgment around the choice itself might actually allow you to explore your options with a little bit more curiosity. Harpreet: [00:22:32] Part of that, like the values part of it, man, I feel like I'd be hard pressed to like, like, state my values off the top of my head. Like, you know, I don't think I've put a fair amount of time to actually writing that down and distilling that down. What those are for myself and what they mean, I think part of that is a lot of self-awareness. I feel like I'm self-aware, but I mean, I don't know. Like I can't rattle my my values off the top of my head. Am I actually self-aware? So I guess I mean, let's talk about self-awareness as a as it relates to maybe coming up with our values. I guess, first, how do we describe self-awareness in this context? How can we use that to help us identify our values? Lara: [00:23:09] Yeah. So I think that's a really great question. And I think there's a pretty simple answer, which is, you know, in this context, I think self awareness can help you tune into your values by just becoming more aware of what matters to you, you know, and of what kind of person you want to be. And, you know, it might be a little macabre, but one of the best ways I think, to do about it is to imagine that someone's reading your eulogy and what do you want them to say about you? You know, you just became a father, correct? Like within this year, right? Yeah. So one would be to maybe think about like, what kind of father do you want to be? Do you want to be do you want to be a loving father? Do you want to be a funny one, a caring one, supportive, you know, and to remember that, you know, what is what is sort of like the legacy that [00:24:00] you want to leave, not in terms of financial or anything like that, but what are the character traits that you want to be remembered by? And I mean, this is the thing about values, which is pretty cool, is that there's there's hundreds of that. And I and so, you know, you can have the value of honesty, integrity, communication, service, laughter, adventure, curiosity, humor. I mean, I could go on and on, right. One of the best things that I and it's a it's super simple. I mean, if you just Google Values list, you'll find lots of different lists of values. And I like to walk people through an exercise where they pick ten, then they pick seven. Then out of that ten, they narrow it down to seven, then they narrow it down to four and they land on three. Lara: [00:24:44] Right. Because they think one of the things where at least I've noticed in my own practice where people get stuck is that they pick like 20 values, you know, and then like you, they can't even remember what their values are. So I think for, for us to really land on like a solid three and knowing too that listen, in life we go through different stages, we go through different phases, different things are going to matter to us at any given time. Like for sure. When I as soon as I left graduate school, I knew that one of the things that mattered to me, you know, whether people are offended by this or not. But I wanted to make money. I mean, that was when I got out of graduate school. I was like, okay, it's time to make some money. And that mattered to me, not because I thought that it would increase my worth and value as a human being, but because I had worked my ass off for a really long time, like it was time to make some dough. So to me, being financially secure was 100% of value of mine immediately out of graduate school. Now it's not one of my top three values, so our values can definitely change over time. But I do think that if you can dial in to a solid three right now, I think that that will definitely serve you and use it as an exercise every single day. You know, at the end of every single day, ask yourself, [00:26:00] let's say, for example, your values or adventure or family and service. At the end of the day, ask yourself, what did I do today that aligned with that value and see where it takes you so much. Harpreet: [00:26:10] Yeah, absolutely. Appreciate that. And then run with one to make some money. Nothing wrong at all. Yeah. I mean, like, I like this this idea of a philosopher king, right? But then, like, Nassim Taleb, it's easier to become a philosopher. I'm sorry. It's easier to become a king than a philosopher. Right? If you want to be a philosopher, king first become a king, then become a philosopher. So so speaking of, you know, we're talking about self-awareness a little bit there. How do we tell if we have enough of it? Right. Because that can that could be something challenging. Is there something that we can attest that we can give ourselves to determine just how self-aware we actually are? Lara: [00:26:42] That's a great question. Gosh, I don't know that there's like I mean, this probably is not the answer that your audience is going to want, but I don't know that there's ever enough like I don't know that there's ever like a final amount that you get to where it's like, okay, I'm good now. Like the work is done, right? Because they think life is fluid and so it's ever changing. So, you know, I think that there are four realms that when I think of self awareness, I think are important. Right. So the first is self awareness around what you're thinking, self awareness around how you're feeling, self awareness around how you're relating and how you're behaving. So those are sort of like the four elements of self awareness that I think are really important. But the truth is that at any given time I might lose a little bit of self, like I might think for example, that I'm pretty self aware around how I think, right? But then let's say I get swooped up into a really big project that sort of diverts my attention to different places, and I lose a little bit of my self awareness of what I'm thinking because I'm overloaded with the work, right? And maybe I'm paying much more attention to the work than I am to myself. Then I, then my self awareness in that arena can kind of dip. Lara: [00:27:56] So I think, I think one of the best ways to just sort of tune [00:28:00] into your own self awareness is to literally have a self awareness practice every single day and to be asking yourself and listen. I mean, it could literally be as simple as asking yourself those four questions like, What am I thinking a lot about lately? How am I feeling lately? How am I relating lately to people, to places, to things, and how am I behaving to just kind of check in with yourself pretty regularly? I do think you can use people around you to, you know, to like your trusted allies, your deep, deep inner circle, to just sort of touch base, you know. So, for example, if I think that lately I've been really positive and hopeful and helpful around the house, like for me to just ask my husband like, hey, babe, how have I how have it? Like, how do you think I've been lately? I know like a month ago, I was pretty grouchy. It feels like I've kind of warmed up and I'm not as grouchy anymore. So I definitely think we can use our trusted allies to sort of like tune in a little bit more to our awareness. But I do think even just establishing a baseline self awareness practice everyday can be helpful. Harpreet: [00:28:58] Thanks so much for sharing that and in the book. I usually have it on my desk, but I left upstairs because that's where I was reading it. I would flash it right here and tell people to get it. Ten Rules for Resilience. I like it because as a you know, it's a lot of stuff talking about how to build resilience for your family. And I've got a 19 month old son, so that is top of mind. Great book. Highly recommend everyone check it out. And in the book you talk about this concept of this personal true north. Yeah, I like that for many reasons because that I live in Winnipeg, which is that we have this model called True North here for for our hockey team. But I'm just wondering, I guess, what is this concept of of a personal true, true north? Talk to us about this this concept and how do we define that for ourselves? Lara: [00:29:42] Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people use sort of different words and terms when when Joe de Sena and I talk about our true North in the book, really in a lot of ways it's like it's our mission statement, you know, it's a sort of personal mission statement and purpose and desire for contribution. And I think, listen, this ties back into values [00:30:00] a little bit, right? Because I think oftentimes it's our values that sort of create the foundation foundation of our truth. And again, I think it kind of goes back to a simple, though not easy question to answer, which is what matters to you. You know, like what what contribution do you want to make in this world? What pulls at your heartstrings and and to sort of like hold up that true north, right? If we think of it as like a North Star or something that we can always be looking at that shines really bright and to continue to sort of execute our behavior in the way that we operate in the world against that true north, against that purpose, against that contribution and that mission statement, that personal mission statement. And if you're in a family system, right, if you've got a partner or if you've got a spouse, if you've got kids, it's a great thing to do as a family. Like what do we want to be as a family? What are the values that we want to live by and sort of how do we want to operate as a family? It's a really nice activity for individuals to do together. Harpreet: [00:30:55] Thank you so much for sharing that. So I would say one of the things that I value and maybe part of my personal true north, it would be just just the ability to to be focused and present in, you know, in whatever it is I'm doing. But I'm somebody that has, hey, I'm highly distractible and I've got an enormous to do list and sometimes just find myself going through the day. And before I know it, it's like 3 p.m. and I feel like I haven't accomplished anything, you know, most of the time because I get distracted by things and, you know, context switching or whatever. What are some surefire ways that that we can use to make sure that we can avoid distraction and stay productive? Lara: [00:31:36] Yeah, that's a great question. One that I probably should ask myself more often as well. I like we're in the middle of moving into a new house and so the house is filled with boxes. And I literally just said to my husband the other day, like, how can it how can I spend 8 hours packing our house and feel like I've literally dead now? So I definitely sort of understand, you know, the question of of having a lot on your plate and sort of dialing in. I mean, I [00:32:00] think, you know, one thing and this ties in to self awareness. One thing that I think is really helpful for all of us to know is is to know where, when and how do we focus best, you know, so so for example, if you work from home, where is the best place in home to do work? Right. Is it is it at the kitchen table? Is it do you find yourself like daunting over to the kitchen? More often, maybe than you should. Or do you find yourself maybe clicking on the TV? Then maybe we need to shift where you're doing your work to a different place. Right. And I think, you know, if you're in an office and you're not working from home and maybe you don't have the luxury necessarily of moving your office space, but to ask yourself, like, what's on my desk right now that prevents me from doing my work, you know, is my phone right next to my computer. And it's really hard for me to not just wipe up and scroll through a little bit of Instagram while I do. Lara: [00:32:51] So, I think to to dial in a little bit to like, how do you work best? Under what conditions do you work best? Literally environment speaking. I know. So for example, I mean, this is this is a child example. But my my oldest when he was like five years old and in preschool, he did not like to sit down. He liked to stand. And, you know, he did this at home, like when we would do the when we would do homework. He didn't want to sit on the chair. We like to stand, but he just stood, you know, he he didn't make a rumpus of things. You just stood. And so we had a conversation with the teachers about, is it okay if he just stands like, does he have to sit down? And they were like, It's fine if he learns better. We don't really care, you know? So I think like to just know that sometimes we have certain we have certain perceptions of how things should be done, you know, like I should sit at my desk and get this done, but maybe you actually work better when you stand, right? Or maybe you actually work better if you're a little bit cold instead of comfortable with a nice cozy sweater and sweatshirt on, you know. So I think some self awareness around like, how do I work best? I also I'm a huge fan of getting the small things done first. Lara: [00:33:59] And so what I [00:34:00] mean by that is like anything that that takes less than 5 minutes, that should be the thing you do in the first hour of the day. Right. Because oftentimes high achievers like you and individuals who who who sort of have like big ideas and want to move towards big things, especially, you know, when people have big projects, they can look at the little things and say to themselves, well, that's so easy. I'll get it done later. But then before, you know, you've got 150 little things that you said you would do later, right? And so it becomes overwhelming and it becomes almost like a weighted vest that you're wearing all day long because you know that you've got these things to do. So I would definitely recommend for anybody listening if there's anything. Being on your list, it takes less than 5 minutes, save the first hour of the day and complete those things. I'm also a huge fan of just the basics hydration, making sure you're getting enough water and standing up and moving your body. I mean, we've just got data on that that indicates that it's just super, super helpful to kind of reset our brain a little bit. So I'm big proponents of that going outside, taking a deep breath if you can. It doesn't mean you have to go for a 26 mile run. But if you could just literally walk outside and take a deep breath, I think that's also absolutely going to help with your productivity. Harpreet: [00:35:15] That's an important point. I think there's an overlooked connection between movement and and mental health and. I mean, I live in Winnipeg. It's super cold in the winter, but still, even in the winter, I'm usually out walking and getting my steps and getting fresh air and. But the recently, though, in the last, I don't know, probably two or three months like I've kind of that I feel bad because I just published a a blog post talking about walk station and, and like, you know, walking meditation and the importance of walking throughout the day. But, you know, I myself haven't done this practice in like two months, like two or three months. I haven't gone on my long walks that I've used to go. And I feel that I feel less creative, less energized, kind of more [00:36:00] more grouchy, I guess I would say. Yeah. So, so yeah. This is an interesting connection between movement and mental health, if you just talk to us a little bit about that. Lara: [00:36:09] Yeah. I mean, listen, I just we cannot ignore, like, the data and science around how moving our body is. Good for our brain, good for our soul, good for our emotional regulation, good for our psychological and social connection with others. I mean, we all, you know, know about, you know, the the feel good chemicals that can be released during any kind of activity or movement. Right. Endorphins, adrenalin, dopamine, serotonin, all the things. Right. But I also think that, listen, like it, we we. Harpreet: [00:36:42] Are. Lara: [00:36:42] We are made to move. I mean, we were born to move and, you know, and to forage. And we have become way too complicit in standing still and sitting down. And in my experience, you know, individuals who struggle with mental health and maybe have actual diagnosed, you know, mental illnesses. Exercise and being active when implemented into like a treatment plan always works in their favor. I mean, it just it allows individuals to feel better about themselves. And again, this isn't marathon training here. I mean, 30 minutes a day is so useful. And the other thing that I think is really important is that, you know, when we move our body like this, the endocannabinoids the same the same system, right? That allows us to feel a little bit more socially connected and more interested in people also gets activated. And so in a world where right now the reports of loneliness are like through the roof and people are feeling more disconnected than ever, even though technically through technology we're more connected than ever. Whatever we can do to actually like connect [00:38:00] to our fellow man and woman is really, really important. And exercise and activity is a big way to do that. Lara: [00:38:06] And that community serves our mental health. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, it doesn't really matter. Being around people serves you and allows you to feel like you're part of something like a belonging, right? So I think in all those ways, activity and exercise is huge for individuals who are just really trying to establish a baseline of mental health. And I think that, you know, the truth is there are so many other elements to that as well, which is good sleep and making sure you are drinking enough water, making sure you are getting good nutrition. Like sometimes we overcomplicate things and we look for hacks and we look for, you know, these secret tips. And the truth is like, if we're if you're sleeping well, right? If you're moving your body, if you're stimulating your mind and creativity, if you're laying off the alcohol or other other stimulants and you're going outside, like those five things in and of itself will allow you to just establish a baseline of mental health and physical health that I think will serve you, I mean, through the ages. Harpreet: [00:39:06] Think super, super critical advice is the easiest things you could do, but they're hard because they require consistency. Right. And I think that's a good point. That's something that I know I could struggle with. Definitely. I know a lot of people struggle with that, that consistency. What's something we could do to to help make ourselves more consistent? Let's look at it from the lens of movement, for example. A lot of us are working remotely, working from home. Yeah. We all of us got tight deadlines. We all got stuff to do. We got we got to get stuff in. And it could feel like, oh, man, you know, like half an hour to go outside and get a walk or half an hour to go go run around or a few minutes here to do this mean it's hard to do that. I got stuff to do. I got to get to focus on this. I'll get this done before you move on to the next thing. How do we how we kind of fight that urge and force ourselves to get that movement in because it's going to help us in the long term, right? Lara: [00:39:57] Yes. Yeah, that's a great [00:40:00] question. And it's one that I you know, that I get asked a lot in different ways. You know, a lot of times, like people use the word motivation, like how do I stay motivated, right, to like stay on track? And I think listen, I think the truth is that, number one. It's not you're not always going to want to do the things that are good for you. I mean, that's just the truth, right? Like I was just talking to somebody else the other day and they're like, Well, how do I stop wanting the sugar cookies at Christmas? And I'm like, You may never stop wanting the sugar cookies at Christmas because they taste really good, but sometimes saying no to things right, setting a healthy boundary or saying yes to things in the alternative healthy boundary is is about, you know, just doing something that you don't always want to do, but, you know, you have to do. And this ties back a little bit to values, right? So like, for example, family, a value of mine, if I want to show up for my family, like really show up and be the kind of wife that I want to be to my husband and absolutely be the kind of mother that I need for it to be for my boys. I have to be psychologically sound. And in order for me to be psychologically sound, I absolutely know that me going on a run six mornings out of the week is critical. No matter how cold it is, no matter how much I don't want to do it, no matter how tired my legs are from the day before, if I think about that value of, well, what matters to me though family matters to me, and showing up to me matters and tying it to a value I think is really important. Lara: [00:41:25] I think too often people start fitness or training camp plans or exercise plans without tying it to a value and it falls flat really, really quick. You know, after 5 to 7 days, they're like, I don't really want to do this anymore. Well, it's because it's not tied to a value, so see if you can tie it to a value. The other thing that I would say is, listen, you have to find what you like. I mean, again, I think this kind of goes back a little bit to comparison, right? So if like all your friends or runners, but you hate running, don't run, you know, try a stationary bike or try a kickboxing class or go to a dance class or go to a trampoline [00:42:00] park and jump on the trampoline park for a little bit. So I think finding what you enjoy I think can be useful. Also finding what you enjoy and tying it to something else you enjoy. So for example, I'm like a weird declaration, but I'm super into eighties music right now, so when I go on my run, I get kind of excited that I get to jam out to eighties music. Like, I kind of could care less about the run, but it's like, well, it's like an hour of me listening to eighties music, right? So whether or not maybe it's this podcast for people, but whatever it is like tai tai that to also something that provides a reward system for you so that you're already enjoying it off the bat. Harpreet: [00:42:41] Absolutely love that. And if my podcast does do this for you, I'd be super, super happy. Send me an email. Let me know. Totally. Yeah. Great. Great tips. Great advice. Thank you so much. Yeah, I guess I do kind of value you doing hard stuff. Like I take cold showers every morning and like, like ice cold and I hate it. Like, I can't stand it even think about it now. It's like just that. That feeling of that cold water as it goes down my back, I'm just like, Oh, I hate it. But I still I still do it totally. Lara: [00:43:06] Exactly. Well, and I think, too, it's like, listen, we've definitely become a society that enjoys being more comfortable than we enjoy being uncomfortable. But the truth is, it's not always going to be a party. I tell my kids this all the time. For example, last night for dinner, I made salmon, Brussels sprouts and sweet potatoes. Do you think when I told my kids what was for dinner, they were super pumped about it? Like, no, they were like, Oh, we hate fish. Which by the way, they don't they clear their plate with fish faster than any other food. But I was like, Guys, it's not going to be a party in your mouth at every single meal. Like, sometimes you just got to eat it just because you need that kind of nutrition, not because. So just like the shower's right, it's not a party every time you get in the shower. But absolutely, it's building those resilience data points and it's building that element and being in alignment with your value of hard work and doing things that maybe you don't always want to do but, you know, are going to be better for you. Harpreet: [00:43:57] So we talked about a lot of stuff here. That's awesome. One [00:44:00] thing I'd love to get into is your obsession with curiosity. So we touched on this in the intro. You mentioned it when we're talking about kind of your early years, what do you find so curious about curiosity? Lara: [00:44:12] Oh, man. I mean, listen, from my perspective, all good things start with curiosity. I think that I think in my experience as a psychologist, working with clients, working with businesses, working with executives, working with elite athletes, where performance begins to increase is at the onset of curiosity is when they begin to ask themselves questions that maybe they haven't asked before or begin to think about things in a different way than maybe they haven't thought about before. And I think we, especially in the last few years here in the States, have gotten really stuck on facts and science and sort of these like hard firm. There's no room for nuance kind of issues. And and gosh, I think even if we can just get curious about like, well, how come somebody else thinks that way? Like, where did that come from? Where, where, where did they come to that conclusion? How did they read the exact same study that I read? And they landed on a different interpretation of the data than I did, you know, and not to come at it from a judgmental perspective, but to come at it from a huh. Like, how come, you know? So for example, I mean, even using that tone of voice, if I have a client that comes into my office and they say, like, I just don't understand why I keep doing this right, and how critical and shaming does that that sound off the bat? And I say to them, huh? I know, right? Like, how come you keep doing it? You know, like that even allows for like an openness of curiosity rather than judgment. Lara: [00:45:45] So, listen, I just think all good things start with curiosity. I think that when we become curious, we we exercise the attribute of open minded, which allows us to have deeper relationships with our self and with other people. And I think curiosity also like opens [00:46:00] the door of possibility. You know, if we become more curious about things like, well, what if I did that right? So for the person who knows that maybe they need to be more active but isn't being more active, right? And they were listening to this podcast and they're like, Oh, well, Doctor L says that maybe I could do something that I like doing instead of something that everybody else is doing. Maybe what would happen if I signed up for a salsa class? Like, what would that be like? Right? Like, curious. So, yeah, I mean, I just I just love it. It's just like my default position. It's just. I think it's just the best thing on the planet. Harpreet: [00:46:31] I don't need anyone's permission to be curious either. It's free. Lara: [00:46:34] It's true. Harpreet: [00:46:35] You just do it. So I'm a newish father and my son's just over 19 months old now. He's so curious. Like, he's just always like, What's this? What's that? Why is this? Who's that? What can I do to ensure that I don't do anything that would cause him to lose that curiosity? Lara: [00:46:52] Oh, gosh. Well. Two things, I think. One is to to tolerate and manage your own fear of what could happen. You know, so like if he is I'm so bad with like with like age development things but 19 months like around walking age, right? Harpreet: [00:47:15] Yeah. He's, he's been walking for a while. He's like got fully formed sentences coming out of. Lara: [00:47:20] Oh my gosh. He's, he's killing it. He's crashing, crushing life. But so, so but as a parent, I mean, you know, sometimes you get scared of like, oh, what if they want like they want to do this and what if they fell or they want to do that? Like my youngest child loves cooking and baking. And so when he was like four years old, he wanted to know how to make eggs. Right? And all I'm thinking is like, he's going to grab the pan. Like he's going to put his hand in the pan and it's going to singe his fingers off. But instead, I just had to manage and tolerate my fear and be like, okay, we're going to make some eggs, right? So I think that's one that I would say is like really work hard to manage and tolerate your own fear around the possibility of. [00:48:00] Right. And try and think like instead of the possibility of we think the possibility of, you know, just even change your tone and language a little bit like that. The other thing I would say is. Lara: [00:48:11] Begin to or you probably already are. Continue to ask open ended questions. And also, when he's curious, be curious with him, you know. So for example, like my kids all the time will ask things that I do not know the answer to. Like, Mom, why is this like that? You know? And I'll be like, Dude, I don't know. Why do you think it's like that? You know? So, like, engage the conversation, but also also to ask open ended questions. So oftentimes, you know, the first question that parents will ask when their kiddo gets in the car from school is how like do you have a good day? Question mark? And usually the kid says, yes, you know, or whatever. But I think there's a gentleman he's an organizational psychologist in Fort Collins, which is where I live, who says, you know, maybe ask your kid, who did you help and who helped you that day? You know, like to sort of open up the door for thinking a little bit differently, I think is always an opportunity to keep our kids curious. Harpreet: [00:49:06] And how about as we turn into adult? I think, you know, it's some people might trade the curiosity for compliance that's just a fact of life that will happen to people and maybe sometimes they're able to snap out of it or whatever. I guess how do we cultivate that sense of curiosity as adults? Lara: [00:49:26] Yeah. So I think a few things. One, I think this kind of goes back to what we talked about earlier in terms of like developing, developing a practice of self awareness, right? So because if you're if you're developing a practice of self awareness, you will be inherently curious because you'll be curious about how you're thinking, what you're feeling, how you're behaving and how you're relating, which is all that's all curiosity. So I think as we move into adulthood, like having particular practices that allow us to remain curious, I think are helpful. I, for example, one [00:50:00] of the things that I did in 2020 was I listened to a podcast who that was hosted by somebody that I had a difficult time with. Like I actively disagreed often with the things that this host talked about, but I forced myself to listen to the podcast regularly to try and get curious about that perspective, like to try and to try and sort of put myself in a position of why do I feel so prickly around these particular topics or around this particular answer to a question or perspective? And how can I expose myself to maybe getting curious about the way somebody else thinks about it? So I think having a regular practice like that could be helpful for people. Harpreet: [00:50:46] Very, very actionable and useful. I really like that. It reminds me this Abraham Lincoln Committee was Abraham Lincoln. I if it was him. But he's talking about I don't like that, man. I must get to know him better. Lara: [00:50:57] I love that. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Like, I think curiosity for me, too, is often about moving towards the things that we regularly move away from, and especially if we can do it with that curious mind instead of that judgmental mind, then oh gosh, it can just open up so many doors. Harpreet: [00:51:16] So let's go ahead and start wrapping up here. This the last what I call a formal question, then I get into this random round thing, which is going to be a lot of fun. So it is 100 years in the future. What do you want to be remembered for? Lara: [00:51:32] I would like to be remembered for my laugh. Actually, I would. And it's funny because the first thing I wanted to say was, I would like to be remembered for creating spaces where people get to know themselves better. But I think in truth, when I'm doing that, I find laughter. And and so I think for me, like, there's so many things about life that is so incredible. And one of my favorite things is finding people to laugh with. And so [00:52:00] if I could be remembered for my laugh, that meant that I lived a good life. Harpreet: [00:52:04] I actually love it. And where can people hear your laugh at? I know you've got a few different podcasts that you're hosting. There's a few that came up in the research. What are you most active with in terms of podcasting? Lara: [00:52:14] Well, I had so I had my own podcast called Curious Minds with Dr. Al, along with Spartan Mind, where you can find so you can find both of them. Well, Spartan Mind is on YouTube. Curious minds you can find and like Spotify, Apple Podcasts, all those places. So but I kind of took a break from the podcast circuit for a little bit because I got sort of burnt out, actually, and so I just sort of needed to like take a step back and be a little bit more quietly creative for myself. But gosh, in a lot of those, like especially in some of those early Spartan mind episodes, if you fast forward it all the way to the end, we have like the outtakes, like the bloopers, and I am just, I mean, I'm just dying nearly every time of just like big guffaws of laughter. Harpreet: [00:52:58] And speaking of being quietly creative, you got a few different things that you've put out. One of them is the book Ten Rules for Resilience for for Families and then the Life Box. What is the the life box substance about this? Lara: [00:53:10] So Life Box is a company that I started about three years ago. We have two products. We have an actual box, which is a box that holds 180 cards that work to basically build your superpower of self awareness. So on each card there's an intention which is sort of like the guide for the card, and then there's a prompt or a question that encourages you to think about the different things that I mentioned on here how you think, how you feel, how you relate and how you behave, and 180 cards. The idea is that after 182 cards, you'll do 180 degree turn and getting to know yourself better. And if you think about it, like, I mean, that would be an incredible exercise for people who are listening that want to develop a self awareness practice or curiosity practice is to just pull a card a day and for half of the year you've got a curiosity practice or pull one a week [00:54:00] and then you've got it for a lot of years, you know, so, so, so we have our box and then we also have an app. It comes in an app form which is basically a digital version. So you can have a question each morning delivered to you. It encourages you to think about those things that I mentioned before. Harpreet: [00:54:15] I'm definitely looking forward to receiving my life box. Lara: [00:54:18] Dan Yes, it's on the way. It's on the way. Harpreet: [00:54:21] And I'm somebody who, you know, I journal a lot. I've got a couple of journals that I that I write in. Awesome. I'm excited to I try to be analog as possible, so I'm excited for the actual cards, like to pull them up and start writing and I'll definitely be sharing pictures with folks and maybe even, you know, sharing some of these topics on, on LinkedIn here to tell you people's reactions or try to get people to think about them, I think they'll be really, really awesome. So let's just get into the true random round here. So what in your opinion, what do you think people think within the first few seconds of meeting you for the first time? Lara: [00:54:55] Oh, she has curly hair. I think that's what people typically think, because oftentimes I straighten my hair. And so I'm trying to embrace my curl more. And I think they're surprised by the curl. Harpreet: [00:55:09] Nice rocket. I love it. That's awesome. What are you currently reading? Lara: [00:55:13] No anomaly. I do. I do not know the name of the author. I'm always bad about knowing who the author is of the book that I'm reading, but I'm obsessed. It was just made into like a Netflix show, but I don't know the name of the show, but the book is called Anomaly. Harpreet: [00:55:26] It's fantastic. Is it a like a fiction or nonfiction? Awesome. What song do you have on repeat? Lara: [00:55:34] Oh, my gosh. Well, like I said, I'm obsessed with the eighties right now. So Corey Hart never surrender. It's on repeat. Harpreet: [00:55:42] All right. Definitely have to check that one out. So we're gonna we're going to open up a random question generator and do a few right out of here. The first. Lara: [00:55:51] Question. Harpreet: [00:55:51] Coming out of here is going to be, what accomplishment are you most proud of? Lara: [00:55:58] Oh, my gosh. Lee [00:56:00] My senior year in high school on the soccer team, I got the best defensive award and it was honestly like one of the most proudest moments of my life thus far. I just I think probably because like in high school, that stuff just matters so much so that that was that was for sure it. Harpreet: [00:56:19] The best defensive like in a position of like a sport. Lara: [00:56:23] Yeah. Like best. Best defensive player. Harpreet: [00:56:25] Okay, nice. And what sport was that? That you're playing? Lara: [00:56:28] Soccer. Harpreet: [00:56:28] Soccer. Nice. Nice. And what makes you cry? Lara: [00:56:32] You know what makes me cry is the great British Bake Off on Netflix. Yep. Just we literally just watched the finale last night, and I was, like, in total tears about it. Yeah. And also the movie Claws on Netflix. It's our Christmas tradition movie, and every year I'm sobbing at the end. Harpreet: [00:56:50] Is that the that's the the the animated one. Right claws is. Yes, yes. That's a good one. That's a good movie. I absolutely love Christmas. I don't know what it is. Lara: [00:56:59] I just oh, I hear you. Harpreet: [00:57:01] I was, you know, speaking about putting things together to enjoy it. Earlier today, I was listening to Christmas Lo Fi while going on a walk. It was. Lara: [00:57:09] Really nice. I love. Harpreet: [00:57:11] That. So question here, what is your favorite city? Lara: [00:57:15] Well, I do. I love the city I'm in now, but I do love Dallas, which is where I spent ten years of my life. The food is fantastic. The shopping, even though I'm not a shopper. But if you do need something, man, you can find it. It's great. And I love the arts down there in Dallas. You wouldn't necessarily think that Dallas, Texas is like a big art city, but they actually they have a fantastic performing arts center. So I'm a big fan of Dallas. Harpreet: [00:57:41] Definitely on my list of places to go. I've not been there. I've been to Austin, obviously, and I but definitely I'll check out Dallas and we'll do this. Final question here. What is something you can never seem to finish? Lara: [00:57:54] That's actually easy, even though I think this time it will be different. I really have a difficult time finishing [00:58:00] books. If they do not hold my attention, I will not finish them. And I used to be one of those people that would be like I have to power through. I have to get it done. But listen, I mean, I only have so much more life to live if I'm not enjoying it. I put it down so and it is funny because it really has to hold my attention. And this book Anomaly is holding my attention, but I probably have like 20 books on my bookshelf that I have not finished. Harpreet: [00:58:27] Yeah, that's something that that I'm a huge fan of. Like I don't really necessarily finish every single book that I read, but, you know, at least try to I try to at least get one thing out of the book that I'm reading. Lara: [00:58:39] Oh, that's great. That's a good way to think about it. Harpreet: [00:58:41] Yeah, call it a win if I got one thing that I can take from that. So how can people connect with you and where can they find you online? Lara: [00:58:48] Sure. So my website is Dr. Laura Penske. I'm Laura. Is Laura, not Laura. I'm on Instagram. Same handle at Dr. Laura Pence. You can always you can just email me Laura at Dr. Laura Pencom. I answer my own emails. I am a human being that actually does do this work. Yeah, those are the best places to find me. And then same with Life Box G, FBO X is the website and then the same Instagram handle like VHF Xbox. Harpreet: [00:59:18] So to link to all of those right there in the show notes so you guys can connect with Dr. L. Dr. L thank you so much for taking time out your schedule to be on the show. Appreciate having you here. Lara: [00:59:27] Thank you. Thank you for having me. And you are definitely achieving, from my perspective, that goal of being present. It's nice to have a host that it's like present with their guest for an hour. I really appreciate it. Harpreet: [00:59:39] Well, thank you very much. I truly appreciate that. And my friends, remember, you've got one life on this planet. Why not try to do something big? Cheers, everyone.