Jerry and Jonathan_mixdown.mp3 Jerry: [00:00:00] I think one of the best things about the content is that we sort of have seen on LinkedIn, Austin, Balzac as an example, he posts very, very actionable content and that's very much what we sort of like to strive for as well when we talk about job search, making it extremely tangible so that someone who is reading it can take action that very second. So for you, if just content that you really like and enjoy with and enjoyed and you're like, Listen, I'm going to try it. If it takes you less than 5 minutes, do it. Try it. Best case scenario is that you get a job out of it. The worst case scenario, you use 5 minutes. Harpreet: [00:00:41] What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Artists of Data Science Podcast, the only self-development podcast for data scientists you're going to learn from and be inspired by the people, ideas and conversations that'll encourage creativity and innovation in yourself so that you can do the same for others. I also host Open Office Hours. You can register to attend by going to Bitly.com/adsoh forward slash a. Ds0h. I look forward to seeing you all there. Let's ride this beat out into another awesome episode and don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave a five star review. Our guests today are two founders who have come together with one goal in mind to turn underdogs into winners by helping those who come from nontraditional backgrounds and non target schools land their dream careers. They both know what it's like and vividly remember the struggles they faced striving to land their dream jobs at top tech companies and know all too well what it feels like to apply for hundreds of [00:02:00] jobs only to receive those dreaded. We regret to inform you rejection emails. Our first guest since cracking the code and figuring out what it takes has worked at companies such as SNAP, Cisco and Google. Harpreet: [00:02:16] He's worked on many initiatives providing advice and words of wisdom on LinkedIn, Instagram, Tik Tok, where his content has seen over 30 million monthly impressions. He's spoken in nine countries and over 250 universities, as well as speaking at engagements such as talks at Google and the LinkedIn influencer summit. Our second guest is a former senior strategy and operations manager at Google and Product Strategy Lead at Lucid. He's one of LinkedIn's top voices for tech in 2020 and has been featured on Forbes, Newsweek and Business Insider just to name a few. Together, they've helped thousands of people land roles at Fang companies at Cisco, Microsoft, Deloitte, Eli Disney, KPMG, and the list goes on and on and on, my friends. So please help me. Welcoming our guests today, the co-founders of One Salty and the 20 and newly minted Forbes 30 Under 30, Jonathan Javier and Jerry Lee. Jonathan Jay, thank you guys so much for taking time out of your schedule to be here today. Matt, appreciate both of you gentlemen joining me. Jerry: [00:03:28] I pray. Thank you so much for having us here. I cannot be more excited to share some of the experiences that we've had and also that we had someone mutually that we both know who introduced us really excited to be here. Harpreet: [00:03:41] Yeah, definitely. My shout out to Puja. Puja definitely was one of the first guests that I reached out to, actually reached out to Puja before I even had a podcast. So she's in the first cohort of people that reached out to Puja. Thank you so much for making that introduction for us. So before we get into all the wonderful advice and wisdom you guys share across all your content platforms, let's get [00:04:00] to learn a little bit more about you guys. So let's start with Jerry. Jerry, talk to us about where you grew up and what it was like there and then we'll move on to to. Jerry: [00:04:07] Jonathan Yeah. First for everyone tuning in and anyone who will be tuning in first, thank you so much for sharing us time your attention with us. We're super excited to be here a little bit about my story. So I come from a first generation low income background where I think most people might look at that and go, Whoa, that's kind of weird. Why would you start off with leaving that for me? I feel like I wear that very proudly because I feel like throughout my entire career very much has sort of been an uphill battle for me to figure out what do I want to do with my career, how do I break into my dream companies and so on and so forth? But I felt like that background taught me the importance of pushing hard, taught me the importance of working hard, and how that translates into doing well for your career, your side gigs and everything else in between. So today so I started off my career at Google, was the first intern at Google from my alma mater, later was hired as a youngest analyst and got promoted multiple times before I left to lead a product strategy team. And now I'm here at consulting with Jonathan and fun fact, we actually just made our first full time marketing hire today, which was really, really exciting. Harpreet: [00:05:14] Congratulations, man. This is a huge step. And I definitely love hearing and hearing that that background because, you know, growing up in that same type of environment myself being, you know, immigrant family, first generation immigrant from, you know, low income family, low income neighborhood and having to go through all those struggles. And I it's not not easy. Jonathan Mann, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what it was like there? Jonathan: [00:05:32] Of course. Well, first off, thanks so much for having us. Really appreciate it. And have an amazing Tuesday. Yeah, I'm Jonathan Javier. I'm the co-founder of Consulting. Our mission turned underdogs in the winners is Jerry has said so helping those who come from nontraditional backgrounds and non target schools to help them get into their dream careers. But yeah, I mean, my career started when I was first graduating from college and I still remember like find all the different companies and thinking that I could get in. Simply by applying wasn't really [00:06:00] the case, especially coming from the background that I came from. But I realized that by utilizing LinkedIn specifically with networking, building rapport and getting to know people, you're able to establish these connections which lead to job opportunities. So that's how I was able to land my job. That's Snap, Google and Cisco by just creating those relationships through LinkedIn and by utilizing social media to get there. But yeah, it's been an amazing journey ever since Jerry and I have been working together for the past year and a half to build one link to help more people land jobs. And honestly, we've done a ton like go into 2 million following on social media, I think like 60 million impressions per month now on all our social media channels and it's going to continue growing for the near future as long as you all come in with us on the journey. So excited to be here and excited to speak a little more about all the different tips that we can give or insights. Harpreet: [00:06:49] That you guys have had such a massive impact. It's been amazing to see and just quite the meteoric rise over the last couple of years that that I've been following the guys on on LinkedIn. But how do you guys know each other? These guys grow up together. You guys go to high school together. You know, what's what's the back story there? Jonathan: [00:07:05] Yeah. So Jerry and I know each other. Yeah. I mean, from LinkedIn. So funny story is the same strategies that we teach on our social media channels with TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn did the same thing that Jerry basically and Jerry does the same thing to a lot of different individuals. How do you build those relationships with individuals to ultimately these opportunities? So actually reached out to Jerry and I think it was 2018 because I was working at SNAP and he was at Google and I kind of wanted to learn more about how Google worked. And yeah, I mean, basically help me get into corporate. And then a few months down the road, we collaborated on a workshop at UC Berkeley and we've been collaborating and working together ever since. So it's been an amazing journey for myself and Jerry. And yeah, I mean, not only that, Jerry and I also live in the same house, so I'm literally on the second floor and Jerry's on the third floor. So if you can hear me in Jerry's background, that's me. So a little bit about it. Harpreet: [00:07:55] That's cool, man. I didn't I didn't know you guys that lived together. So let's learn a little bit more about [00:08:00] one thing, kind of like the mission and the vision, I think. Talk to us, I guess first about the genesis of the company. How did this idea start? How did this idea come about? What were you seeing in the world that was just like I just just couldn't take anymore. You had to do something about it. Like, what was that moment? Jonathan: [00:08:17] Yeah, I think that when we were when we were on our job search, we like we didn't have any family members. I work in these big corporate companies as we like to say. So we saw that there was a huge need, especially with individuals trying to break into these companies and coming from nontraditional backgrounds. Right. So when we joined forces in 2020, we realized that there was a huge gap and especially during COVID, when there was a lot of layoffs and furloughs, we thought that we could play a big part, especially with helping people get jobs. So what we first started doing was we were doing a ton of different workshops together, but also we were doing a lot of initiatives where we're giving free resources to people and we're able to impact tens of thousands of lives like we had like 20, like tens of thousands of people attending our lives on LinkedIn. And it kind of spearheaded and spirited the growth of one little thing. But all of the consulting really just came from an idea like honestly, and if anybody's trying to start their own business or own companies, it all stems from you having an idea and you starting it, but also having someone who can hold you accountable for it, right? So in 2019, once whole thing started, it was just me at first doing a bunch of workshops around the Bay Area. And so Cal and yeah, I mean it was going great, but it was just an idea. But honestly, when Jerry and I joined forces and when Jerry joined the team, that's when it skyrocketed. And that's what we are today, because we're able to collaborate with each other and make a difference in the world. So that's a little bit about the genesis of our company. Jerry: [00:09:35] Yeah. And one thing I'd add there is that I think the coolest thing I think behind all of this is that both John and I very much share very similar passion for wanting to help others, especially in the domain of. The careers career search. And I think it's very rare that you find someone who shares a very similar passion as you. It's very rare to find someone who loves the company if as [00:10:00] much, if not more than you, but more importantly, someone who just sort of builds on top of you rather than sort of being conflicting or with egos or anything like that. And I think that's sort of the reason why John and I have been able to work together so well for so long. There's only been about two years now, but I do attribute a lot of the success to sort of our working relationship with each other, our ability to communicate with one another, our ability to share feedback with one another. And yeah, for sure. Sometimes things aren't always roses and sparkles everywhere. But I do feel like one of the best things is sort of working with such a good friend always. What am I? John is one of my best friends, and despite what most people may think about working with someone so close to you, I think honestly, it sort of helps. Harpreet: [00:10:49] And I mean, definitely, especially if you guys are, you know, coming together for such a big mission, it, you know, with little skirmishes, whatever. Put that aside. Because doing in the service something larger. So speaking of speaking of the mission. Talk about you know underdog. So so Jonathan talks kind of about what is the definition of an underdog who who are the underdogs? And then maybe after that, Jerry, why is it that companies tend to overlook people just because of their, quote unquote pedigree? Jonathan: [00:11:18] Yeah. I think underdogs, honestly. I mean, everybody everybody has an underdog story. And the reason why is because everyone's been through rejections throughout their life, specifically with jobs or they've been through specific struggles throughout their lives, whether it's coming from a Christian background, trying to make it and try to make their parents happy or anything in general. I think the underdog mentality is for those who have setbacks or challenges throughout their life, but they look at the rejections as redirections, as long as they react in the right way. So if you're able to do that, especially with trying to get into your career or just trying to do anything in general, that's what's going to that's the principle that can be set for you to make a difference in the world. Like, for example, that rejection is redirection as something that's dear to me and Jerry to as [00:12:00] well. Like one thing was like when we got rejected from Forbes last year, we were able to utilize that as motivation to keep on going for this year when we grew to our numbers today and then we were able to be on the list, for example. So utilize that as motivation, as an underdog to get into whatever you want to get into. And you can honestly do it if you just put the mindset towards it. Harpreet: [00:12:21] That reminds me of this Jocko Willink when he talks about good, right? Like he's like, you know, whatever. Just good, just unexpected problems. Good. You have an opportunity to find a solution. Didn't get the job you wanted. Good. Got an opportunity to get more experience builder as better as my subtle mindset shift. I love that. Thank you. And Jerry. So. So what is it? What is it about these companies overlooking people just because of their pedigree? Jerry: [00:12:48] Yeah. You know, it's a really interesting question. And I think it just goes back to how if you were running a company, what would you do? Right. For example, I think more traditional industries like consulting, investment, banking, private equity. I think those are prime examples. And even tech companies and Fortune 500 companies, let's say you have a team of five recruiters and you need to hire 100 people in the next three months. Where would you go? Would you go to the schools and places where you've historically had the most amount of success? Success, or would you try out and venture out and potentially look at other areas where you might potentially find better talent, if not the same level of quality, but just in different areas? Historically, what we've seen and sort of which we've done has been that leaders typically will say, all right, let's hire the next generation of investment bankers or analysts or software engineers from these respective areas. They've worked for what worked well for us in the past. Now, I think that makes a lot of sense from a business perspective. Jerry: [00:13:53] Why would you venture out into an area when you already have such high ambitions already? You'd [00:14:00] rather hire the top 10% from five schools rather than hiring the top 1% from 50 schools. Why? Because it's much harder operationally. And so that's the work that we do, is how do we make that process easier for not only the job seekers to be just as competitive and stand out in the recruiting processes from everyone else? But also on the other end, for those people who do have very traditional backgrounds, what do sort of they have? What is sort of the what are some of the drivers that allow them to be more successful in the recruiting process than someone who's not? Is it the network? Is it the school that you went to? Is it the companies that you have on your resume or is it something else? And that's something else is really what we like to dig into. And a lot of the work that we're working on behind the scenes is very much designed to tackle that very question. Harpreet: [00:14:50] And so when people sign up to work with you guys, whether it's through the courses or through the company and your mentors, when they sign up to work with you guys, what's like one of the first few things that that you start to do with people? What are the first, I guess, myths you start to debunk or the mindset shift mindset shifts you help people go through or anything like that? Jerry: [00:15:13] Yeah, I think the I think the first and most important thing at least, and something that John and I talk about all the time is recruiting is a very emotional process. Right. It is very much of a rejection first game where you have to go through 100 no's for you to get that one. Yes. Right. And that's something that John and I love to say all the time. You just need that one. Yes. And I remember when I created this LinkedIn post, I think for most people it sort of is very self explanatory. Right. You don't need six full time jobs. You just need one. But oftentimes, I think people focus too much on the negatives. People focus too much on the rejections, which is why John says all the time, hey, rejections, redirection. And I'm sure that John's going to talk a lot a bit about that. But really, for me, the whole thing about the job search is very [00:16:00] much baked into the it's an emotional process. Know that. It's an emotional process. So the more that you could detach the emotions and make it a very logical process, the easier to be. Harpreet: [00:16:11] Jonathan What is like the first two steps to, to getting from that rejection to redirection path? Jonathan: [00:16:22] I think it's all about mindset. Honestly, I think it's it's like when you look at anything in life at first, of course, it's natural to be like, dang, like I wasn't able to get this accomplishment, which is like totally okay. Right. But at the end of the day, like if you're able to look at those and utilize it in motivation to be like, dang, even though I didn't get it, now it's just a temporary pause to get it eventually. So what I'd recommend to everybody, especially if you get rejections or trying to achieve something, is to create a vision board. Create a vision board and draw your feature. What I like to do is draw my goals that I have specifically for the year and the beginning of the year. I actually just did a vision board workshop internally for our team, but it's very important because you're able to draw sort of where you want to be in the next year. And I think that visual aspect, especially with you changing those rejections to redirections, it's going to be very important to actually put into not only just a dream, but something into a reality. Harpreet: [00:17:20] How much, Jonathan? Now, let's get into some some topics here on LinkedIn. I'm pretty sure I'm violating LinkedIn's terms of service because I'm not supposed to talk about LinkedIn on LinkedIn live stream, but we're going to do it anyways. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. Then I can terminate it. It's okay. So I think the audience is really going to enjoy this. So when when you go to a LinkedIn profile, what's the immediate thing you go to? Number one, first thing, let's start with that, Jerry, and then go to John. Jerry: [00:17:45] I think the first thing is always going to be your photo, your cover photo and your headline. Now, that being said, I don't mean that right. Are you wearing a suit in your photo or anything like that? I think the biggest thing there for a cover photo and a profile photo is to just to make [00:18:00] sure you're an actual human being. I think LinkedIn shared studies where if you have a profile photo, you're 70% more likely to get a response or get clicks on your profile, something along those crazy metrics. But I have 100% believe it that if the first six impressions, the first 6 seconds of your first impression, you want to show people that, yes, I am human and that this is not a bot. The second thing is a headline, because that's the first thing that someone's going to read. Once someone glances over an image, the first thing that they'll see is, What can I read? And you want to make it so clear as to where you are today and where you want to go in the future. So, for example, if you're currently in marketing and you want to move to project management, one of the headlines that you could have is Marketing Manager at Consulting Bar, Aspiring Product Manager. I don't think it's bad to share your goals and ambitions with your team where you're saying, listen, marketing is great, but my passions feel like I want to explore product management more. To have aspiring product manager headline tells people immediately, Cool, this person wants to be in product management. So I think being very clear about who you are and what you want to get out of, I think it's extremely important. Harpreet: [00:19:12] When it comes to the headlines, what is a common mistake you see people make repeatedly when it comes to their headlines? Jonathan: [00:19:20] I think I think what is a very, very controversial. But I think that the green open to work circle or just saying seeking new opportunities in your headline doesn't help that much. The reason being is because if you're going to reach out to someone on LinkedIn, they're going to assume that you're going to reach out to them for a job. So what we'd recommend is actually putting the open to work as recruiters only. So recruiters will be able to see you when they search for you or try to find you. I think another mistake too, as well as they just put the specific position that they're in. You can put that, of course, but you want to put details into it. And why say this is because, like, think about this. If anybody was to search whatever job you're [00:20:00] going for, would you show up? Yes or no? That's why you have to make sure that your LinkedIn is very SEO optimized and make sure that you have a lot of the keywords in there. So when recruiters search you, you'll be able to be found. So I think that's what's going to be very important. And the last but not least putting a little bit about your background. So for example, you can say first gen in there, so you can connect with other first gens or if you're an advocate for something, you can add that to as well. I think a mission part of that would be great. Harpreet: [00:20:27] And so let's talk about some do's and don'ts with with LinkedIn content and posting content. There seems to be this like thing that I keep seeing people comment over and over. This shouldn't be on LinkedIn. Linkedin is a professional site. What are you talking about? This blah, blah, blah. What are your thoughts on that? Let's start with that with Jonathan. Just because I saw that you've gotten 8 hours of sleep last night, so that's good post on Jerry. Jerry that post about yeah, I. Jonathan: [00:20:49] Got 4 hours, but I can talk, I can take a step of that. Yeah. Harpreet: [00:20:53] Yeah, please. Jonathan: [00:20:54] I'm listening on LinkedIn posting on LinkedIn. I think that the mistake that people make is not posting. The reason why is because people get scared that if they post on LinkedIn, they're going to get feedback, which they don't enjoy or different opinions. When reality, of course you will, there will be at least one person that says it. But at the end of the day, you focus on one person who says it or you focus on other people who don't. Why say this is because all of the time my link to my LinkedIn friends always tell me what I see. They're on their story. Sometimes they're like, Oh, someone bad commented on my post. It's totally fine. It's okay. At the end of the day, you have people that are just like that, but are they going to stop you from keeping creating content? Probably not. Right? So what I recommend is if anything is on your mind or if anything is towards that niche that you're interested in, whether it's for me, for example, job search or for Jerry or example tech motivation and job search too as well. Post content with that niche and find other people who are posting as well. And you'll find that there's a community of individuals who love creating content which will allow more networking opportunities and more ideation. So that's what I recommend for LinkedIn [00:22:00] content creation. Harpreet: [00:22:02] What are what about you? What are some do's and don'ts that you can share? Jerry: [00:22:06] Yeah I think the the do I think this also applies to Tik Tok Instagram and all the other sort of forms of social media is just an authenticity. I think it's extremely easy for the general user to know, is this person being genuine? Is this person truly meaning what they're saying? And I think part of being able to do that is being consistent with your messaging, being consistent with what you post, what you talk about, and why you post it. And I think for us, I think one of the things that I really admire about John is his ability to stay 100% consistent about his messaging, fighting for the underdog, talking about and sharing unconventional strategies. I think if you were to look at John's content three years ago, it's not going to seem much different than it is today, because I think that consistency, the mission drive, the persistence you very much know does not come from John just pulling words out of the air. It very much comes from his passion for him to for him to do things. And so I think that's one of the biggest things, just that authenticity, because I think the more authentic you are, the quicker you'll sort of realize and see that people are willing to sort of. Sort of understand sort of the work that you're saying and the work that you're doing. Authenticity 100% is the best to do. And also being inauthentic, unauthentic is what not to do. Harpreet: [00:23:32] When you think about like just just posting content, maybe this just lines up with authenticity sometimes. Might just be scared to post content. Like, who am I to post on this topic? You know, I don't have a Ph.D. in this thing. What if I say something and you know it's wrong and people think I'm an idiot or something like that? Like, what if we just don't feel like we're an expert enough to post content? Jerry: [00:23:53] You know, that's that's really funny because I feel like I think that very much is one of the biggest barriers [00:24:00] for people to post content. And what's really funny is I feel like if there's something that you want to share about your experiences, you very much could think of your younger self a year ago, two years ago as the audience, because I can almost guarantee you that you're learning that you feel like a super basic or you feel like it's something that everyone should know. I guarantee you, people don't know that. And for me, I remember I used to get a lot of flack for posting things about resumes and job search and people messaging me. Like that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Like, how does how does like, how can anyone take this guy seriously? That is the most basic thing I could have I could have read today. But the thing is, is that, like, my my content is not designed for you. It is designed for people who are in my shoes when I was a freshman in college. It is designed for people who are still on the job search today without any guidance and really knowing what is good versus bad information. Right. And so I think for me, like, that's really one of the things I really try to push hard for. Harpreet: [00:25:01] They use an interesting point about consumption of content. Like what do you guys thoughts around that? Right. There's, there's the creating content, but then there's the consumption of content. How do you how do you ensure that you're consuming good stuff? I guess we'll start with Jonathan. Jonathan: [00:25:15] Yeah, I think consumption of content is super important. I think that how you can do this is be sure that your feed is with people that of course aren't toxic but are also giving you motivation or tangible tips for you. Whatever it is you're in. How you can find this is very simple. All you do is search whatever hashtag you're interested in or like niche, and then just going to post and seeing who are these individuals creating content that's relevant to you, and then sort of following those individuals or following the hashtag even to get those get that content on your feed also to as well, people have to realize that the content that you like on LinkedIn, it's basically how the algorithm works. It's going to tailor towards whatever you are interested in looking at, right? So if you're liking a bunch of stuff on data sites, you're going to show a lot [00:26:00] of data science. If you have one that's posting memes, you're going to have a bunch of memes on your LinkedIn, right? So be sure to like content that you thoroughly enjoy and that you wouldn't mind seeing on your profile or on your feed. Harpreet: [00:26:12] Everything. So, so question here for JT because there are a lot of good content out there as well, right? Like once you have the good content filter down to get your feed full of stuff that you actually do want to see, then it becomes, Oh my God, there's so much good stuff and so many good tips, like, how the fuck do I apply this to my life? What am I supposed to do? Do you have like the tips or a framework on, on how you go about doing that. Jerry: [00:26:31] In terms of finding good content. Harpreet: [00:26:34] In terms of like making use of all the wonderful tips that people are sharing because sometimes they just get so many tips, they might just get paralyzed like, oh my God, what do I do? Jerry: [00:26:43] Yeah. I think the general thesis here is. Is just to try it, right? If John shares something that you're really excited about and that really resonates with you. Try it again. We're not guaranteeing that any of these things will work for you, but what we will guarantee is if you give you a list of 16 different strategies, one of them will as long as you're persistent, as long as you focus on the positives, as long as you're consistent. Now, I think one of the best things about the content is that we sort of have seen on LinkedIn, Austin, Balzac as an example, he posts very, very actionable content and that's very much what we sort of like to strive for as well when we talk about job search, making it extremely tangible so that someone who is reading it can take action that very second. So for you, if this content that you really like and enjoy it with and enjoyed and you're like, Listen, I'm going to try it. If it takes you less than 5 minutes, do it. Try it. Best case scenario is that you get a job out of it. The worst case scenario, you use 5 minutes. Harpreet: [00:27:44] Excellent point. Just be brave enough to actually experiment. That's. That's one piece of it. Act on the the advice as this kind of being shared and the good tips. So we you touched a little bit about networking earlier. I'm wondering if you could share some cheat codes with us for for [00:28:00] networking, like what are some do's and don'ts for people messaging other people on LinkedIn? I get hit up a lot from people I don't know. And literally the first message they're reaching out is, can you give me a job? Or, you know, they send me like a long essay about their life and they ask me this really critical decision, should I go to school here? And they just like, whoa, that's huge. It's, you know, how are we supposed to go about this? I guess some some guidelines for for networking and messaging people on LinkedIn? Jonathan: [00:28:32] Yeah. What I would say is anybody networking on LinkedIn, if you're reaching out to someone, ask yourself if you got that message, would you respond? I think that's literally one of the most important concepts because a lot of people just say, hey, give me a job, right? In fact, I mean, if you're hiring, then sure. And life experiences. But if you're a recruiter, hiring manager and you got reached down, someone say, can you get me a job? Can you guide me? It's like you're telling them to do something for you when instead it should be the other way around. What can I do for you? Can I be that qualified candidate for you to hire? Can I help you with hiring? I don't know. Right. So I think the secret to networking is just being genuine, but not just being transactional. Right. Especially on LinkedIn, where you see a lot of people just asking for referrals all the time without building rapport. And I think it's very important to have that human side and recognize that the person you're reaching out to is actually a human being before being a professional. So that's what I would say is sort of the life of LinkedIn. Harpreet: [00:29:36] And it's just it being not very transactional, non transactional and just yet these are actual people that you're speaking to. So I'm wondering if you could share some tips about what we can do to make sure that when we reach out to a recruiter that this is somebody that's actually going to be able to to help you. And I'm just not like burning an email credit. Jerry: [00:29:55] If you ask recruiters what their biggest pet peeves are. One of the biggest pet peeves [00:30:00] is that candidates will reach out to them for roles that they're not hiring for. So, for example, if you're trying to be a software engineer and you reach out to a recruiter, they don't work for that. You need to reach out to technical recruiters. And even when they are technical, recruiters usually make sure they specifically hire software engineers, not, you know, any other type of any other type of roles, support engineers, data engineers. This is very nuanced type of roles that people hire for. And you just want to make sure you're reaching out to the right people. And the second thing is that even if you are reaching out to recruiter, make sure they're actually hiring for roles. The role that you can you're qualified for just doing that simple layer of due diligence will set you apart by far. And it sounds so backwards and it sounds so well, Gerri. Everyone's doing this. They're right. They're not. I can tell you right now, I have about 10,200 requests right now. I want you to guess what percentage of them actually sends personalized invites where they attach a message. Harpreet: [00:30:57] We zero 5% something like some small. Jerry: [00:31:00] Yeah. Like 1 to 5%. Yeah. Generally. And even of those people who write those messages, how many of them will actually write very thoughtful messages. Half even less. So the fact that you can if you can do your due diligence and just keep the basic, simple, right, there is no magic. Hey, make sure you type in this word and you're guaranteed to get a reply. There's no magic formula that be straightforward, be simple. Reach out to as many people as you possibly can. And that's how you do it. Harpreet: [00:31:31] And when it comes to actually interviewing, let's skip a couple of levels here. Let's say you applied for a job. You're in the in the interview and you're showing up to an interview and you don't have much experience. Right. I guess what would you and let's say it's an entry level job. So I just want to get your hot take on entry level jobs requiring experience. What are your thoughts around that? How can we break that need experience to get experience a cycle? [00:32:00] Let's start with Jerry and Jonathan. Jerry: [00:32:03] Yeah. I think the biggest the biggest thing here is for you, if you can't get experience, what we talk about is create your own experience. Now, when we say create your own experience, that simply means identify what skills you need for you to apply for the role that you want to go for. If you don't know what skills you need, go through the job description and say and ask yourself, Have I? Do I have a bullet point on my resume that addresses the sentence, this sentence, this sentence, and this sentence? If the answer is no, write that down on a piece of paper, and those are the projects you should start working on. Now, if the question is What project should I be working on? Three areas. Think about a class project. Have you done anything with your university or anything? Anything like that? Have you have you looked into volunteer opportunities, whether it's with a nonprofit, whether it's with a local organization or maybe even your favorite small business like consulting? And you're like, I really want to develop my marketing skills. I'm happy to volunteer my time. Or the third thing is simply just starting your own. So, for example, if you wanted to get into product development, start a company, learn how to sell, learn how to adapt your product, learn feedback like start something super simple, start and make sure you design your activities in a way that allows you for you to aim for those bullet points. And that's how you do it. Start simple. Do something. Be action first. Instead of sort of just taking the time to think about it multiple, multiple times. Harpreet: [00:33:28] Well, that very, very actionable advice. Thank you so much. Jonathan, what are your takes? Hot takes some hot takes on on this entry level jobs requiring like three years of experience type of thing. Jonathan: [00:33:38] Yeah, I would say one thing that I think is very important is if you got the interview for the job, I mean, like, why would they interview you if you're not good enough already? Why I say this is because we were just interviewing someone for a marketing manager role. We wouldn't have interviewed you interviewed the person if you weren't good on paper already. Right. So I think what has to happen is when people get interviews, they think that they're not good enough [00:34:00] when in fact, like I said before, you wouldn't have got an interview if you want qualify enough. So always remember that in those interviews you just crush it and just showcase exactly what's on the resume, but also showcase the kind of personality or what you would bring to the table. Right. Another thing as well as always, remember that it's not just you interviewing for the company, it's also you interviewing the company as well. So you want to make sure it's a good fit for both of you. So that's what I would say. I think Jerry hit all the different points. Harpreet: [00:34:27] So let's say, you know, let's say we are interviewing a company and let's say the interview period goes a little bit long in the sense that, okay, we start working at the company, we got the offer, we're working at the company, and maybe we're there for like six months before we start looking for another job and land another job. Like, should we? I guess the question what I'm hinting at is should we worry about looking like a job hopper in 2022? What are your thoughts on that? Jonathan: [00:34:53] No, I don't think so. I can take this one because I drop off people. I was like, yo, why do you your job every year and a half? The reason being is that if a company paid you 33% more than they're making right now, would you leave? Probably. Right. You know what I mean? Like, when I went from synaptic Google, literally, I made times to the amount that I was making at SNAP to Google even even more. So I think what's very important is right now, like it's okay to job job if the opportunity that's there is something that you're really interested in. And also just to kind of test the waters, you're young enough, right? As long as you don't drop out like five times every three months. And that's kind of concerning, right? So what I say all the time is it's okay. The job, job, as long as your values are aligned with your job and the company that you're working on is something that you're really interested in. Harpreet: [00:35:41] Very well about you. Jerry: [00:35:43] Yeah, very much similar lines. I think as long as you have a story, I think that's that's all that really matters. Right. So, for example, like people assume that job hopping is bad because it doesn't show commitment. But what if someone had a really toxic manager? What if they just [00:36:00] weren't a culture fit? What if the role that they were being sold was completely different than what was advertised? So I think as long as you have a clear cut story as to. Yeah, you know, listen, like I looked into my next role and it just didn't seem to be aligned with the role that I had initially thought it was. I don't think recruiters can look at that and go, all right, well, this person's a no go. I think the problem comes when you say, listen, I just got bored and that's it. Then it's then people go, what's going on here? Right. So that's just the biggest thing that we we think about often is just make sure you have a clear cut story that it makes sense and that you're doing right by you, but also that you sort of keep in mind of what the what the companies are sort of thinking about, too. If you have those key principles in mind, you're good. You're going to be good to go. Harpreet: [00:36:52] And you know, before we get to that phase again, job offers and all that stuff, we can't job help them see a job offers. How about those negotiations? That's the critical piece, I think, of the job process like. Do you feel that people tend to be afraid to negotiate? And where do you think that fear stems from? Jerry: [00:37:14] Yeah, I can talk about this. So for me personally, when I first thought about the idea of negotiating, I always thought to myself, but I'm going to lose my job offer. Right? I find negotiate today. Like, what if I lose my job? Then? Then I'm. Then I'm. Then I'll be making I could have been making $60,000, but now I'm going to be making zero because I don't have a job anymore. But I think what people fail to realize is how hard it is to get someone to the offer stage. And it's funny because looking out from looking from the outside into Google, you might think, oh my gosh, they must be giving out offers left and right for every role on their team. They must get thousands of applications. Yeah, that's true. But it's very rare that someone will go through all the steps of the process, make sure [00:38:00] to get the hiring committee every sort of step of the process. And get to the stage. That's what's really hard. And I wish everyone got a chance to experience what that's like, because if they knew how hard it was, you would know that generally you have the power. You, as a job seeker have the power of negotiation, not the recruiters. Because imagine this. Imagine if a recruiter had to hire five people and they hired zero people for six months. How is their performance review going to work? Probably not so well. So recruiters are literally incentivized to make sure that you sign the offer. Yes, they are. They're trying to do what's right by the company, but most importantly, they are trying to do what's right for them in their role. And their role is to get you hired. Harpreet: [00:38:44] We had a question coming in here from Kevin on LinkedIn. The thing that's a great question. You know, kind of talking about the interview process and then this fits in nicely here. Kevin wants to know, how do you ask better questions during an interview to get to know more about the culture and the. Jonathan, let's go to you and then Jerry, if you got any clips off that, I'd love to hear him. Jonathan: [00:39:03] This is a great question. So the question is basically, who do you what do you ask in an interview to get more about the culture? I think what's going to be very important is at the end of your interview, the questions that you ask can be I think one of the best questions is what's their story of how they got to where they are today and what do they best like about their role and also what they like. In that in that question. The reason being is because you'll be able to see, for example, like what their journey was to get to where they are today, where their sort of values align with the companies. And that will allow you to make a decision whether or not that company is the right fit for you in terms of your values and that company's values. The other thing, as well as this also brings in the due diligence of you having to interview people or informational interviews with people at that company before you even have your interview. So what I used to do all the time, especially with the different companies that I was trying to work for, I would have informational interviews with people who worked at the companies already. So when I had the interview, I already knew how the culture was in terms [00:40:00] of their own perspectives that I used to put it as my own too as well, because I was able to see exactly what they did and then apply to my own life and say to myself, Do I want to do this? So I think those are going to be very important, especially with learning more about the culture, because of course you can read online about it. But the thing is, learning from an actual employee is going to be even better. Jerry: [00:40:17] Yeah. And to build on top of that, if you want to even use something a little bit more nontraditional is talk to X employees. They are going to give you the most raw and most real feedback just because they don't they're not incentivized to speak good about the company anymore. So as you're sort of going through your job search, make sure you. Absolutely what, John, ask those questions during an interview, reach out and network with current employees. But just don't forget the old the old employees as well. Harpreet: [00:40:46] So kind of like, let's say we're applying for a data scientist role, then we go to the company's LinkedIn and maybe we can see past employees. I think that's something he's only been. But just to look for data scientist that was in the same role and just kind of just pick the brain like like what's kind of like the right way to go about. They should be like, why did you leave your job at this place? Should I ask them how much money were you making? Like, what do I ask them or do I don't ask them? Jerry: [00:41:11] Yeah, I think each conversation is different, but it really just comes down to whether you what what the biggest and most important thing is. I think the way not to approach this is to say, hey, person, I have a list of 26 questions I'd love to ask you before I make a decision on the role. 26 is a lot. I recommend just going in with one thing and say, Hey, listen, I really want to learn a little bit more about the team culture as I'm about to apply. We'd love to. We'd love to pick your brain for 5 minutes. And the thing I always love to sort of input during my networking calls is just be like, listen, I'm happy to get you virtual coffee to thank you for your time. Just reciprocate and sort of offer offer that piece or even perhaps say, listen, I'm happy to donate to a nonprofit in your name. Right. It's sort of is that a way for you to show that, hey, I really value your time and [00:42:00] I'm willing to show you with my actions that I respect it. And also just just being very candid about your questions and saying, hey, listen, like. Tell me a little bit more about the work life balance at this place. How many hours did you work? Do you feel like you could take vacation whenever you wanted and so on and so forth? I think eventually you sort of begin to find that there are certain themes once you do enough of these calls. But definitely being more straightforward than not is is a best practice. Harpreet: [00:42:28] Oh, let's continue on with with some other questions about the interview process. I think this is one that I know always scared the hell out of me because I didn't know what the hell people were asking. Is there a right or wrong way to answer the Tell me about yourself question. Jonathan, what do you think? Jonathan: [00:42:41] I think that one thing that we love to teach is tell me about yourself should literally be about yourself. Right. It's it's in the name, but also like your own background, your own story. I think a lot of people talk about experience, which is great. You should your pass. Current experience is wonderful what you want to do in the future, but also talk about where you come from. Like maybe you come from a Christian background, maybe you come from a background where you low income household. Talk a little bit about that because you never know if the other person on the other side also comes from that same background. Were you able to build that rapport with that individual? So I would add those layers to it. And then also what you like to do outside of work, I think that's really important because you might have something similar to the other person that they like to do outside of it as well. Harpreet: [00:43:25] And very how should we answer the the what's your biggest weakness question? Should we actually just say weakness or what's your tips there? Jerry: [00:43:33] Yeah, the typical structure for this that we have seen is share in actual weakness. Don't try to coat it with, hey, this is my I'm too hardworking, I'm too perfect, right? Share an actual weakness. But the most important thing that they care about is not what your weakness is, but what you're doing about it. Are you being proactive in, let's say, your your analytical skills can be use a little bit of work? Are you taking courses or are you taking on a side project at work? [00:44:00] Are you doing anything outside of your core duty to make sure you go ahead or even it could be within your core line of work to make sure you go ahead and improve that area of yourself where you feel like you need more development. So just being very straightforward, being like, this is what my sort of weakness. This is the feedback I've heard it in, but most importantly, this is what I'm doing about it. Harpreet: [00:44:19] So it's to kind of put some context there to, to data science scientists. So let's say you're a data scientist, machine learning engineer, you're working in like natural language processing. And you get asked that question, what's your biggest weakness in an interview? And you know that. Okay, well, what these transformer language models I know nothing about them that you say that that's the transformer language models. Those are my biggest weakness. But here's what I'm doing about it. I've picked up this book, this course, and I'm working on this little project to build my skills up. So that's kind of the recipe for that. Jerry: [00:44:50] Exactly. I'm doing a Kaggle project with a Kaggle competition with a number of my colleagues, whatever it is. Harpreet: [00:44:57] Awesome. So thanks so much for sharing all these wonderful tips. I want to kind of maybe get a little bit a little bit personal here with personal questions. And let's first talk about being an influencer, LinkedIn influencer, kind of like the perils of being a LinkedIn influencers. What responsibility do you think it is? I mean, I don't know if I counted, I only got like 43,000 followers for whatever I'm influencer or not. But I feel like I have some responsibility towards people who consume my content. What are your what are your views on that? What responsibility do we do we have towards towards those who are following us? Not to sound grandiose, Jonathan, go for it. Jonathan: [00:45:30] Yeah. I mean, if you have a huge following, you just remember that you are you are a voice for whatever industry. And I think it's very important to listen to your community regarding the different ideas that they have or questions that they have. Because what you can do is you can build a lot of content based on what your community wants. I think a lot of things that sometimes people will do is be selfish and look out for their only their own intentions when in fact looking out for the company, the community that's already [00:46:00] supported you since day one, since you've grown from zero to let's just say 50,000 is going to be very important. So always remember to keep providing value to the world and the world will always provide value back to you. That's what we try to do, especially on our different platforms LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, all those different ones just to help more people in jobs, for example. Harpreet: [00:46:16] Anything to add there? Jerry: [00:46:18] No, I think just know that this title of influencer, I think, has a lot of varying connotations to it. But at the end of the day, what it comes down to is providing value to someone entertainment, knowledge, laughter, what have you. So just making sure you don't lose sight of why people are. All you. It's probably the most important thing that I've sort of learned, and that sort of close ties into sort of what John was saying to just make sure that you sort of are intentional about what you do, what you post, what you talk about, how you structure, the way that you talk to people, how you engage with them. I think that's one of the one of the hardest, hardest things, especially when things might change. But really, I think that that's probably one of the key principles that we've learned. Harpreet: [00:46:59] And. Have you guys ever gone to, like, any types of bouts of kind of creative burnout? Like, what was that like? What how did you overcome it? What were some early warning signs that that you're starting to get burnt out? Maybe start with that, Jerry and then John. Jerry: [00:47:14] Yeah, I think so. It's funny because John and I, we we we churn out content. We. John told me about the strategy, actually, where it was like, Gary, we recommend you create like 100 pieces of content, like ten pieces of content every day or something. And though I had a first sort of a first glance that seems like a lot, but content could be Instagram stories, commenting, replying to your DMS and so on and so forth. So for us, we post every day on every platform at least once. We try to make sure we engage with the community as much as we possibly can. And I think that's one of the one of the things that we try to do. So definitely burnout is very, very possible and very prevalent. I think that the biggest thing I sort of fall back to whenever I sort of have these burnouts is just to make sure you sort of have a support system. Like, for example, like I [00:48:00] mentioned to John the other day that like, listen, like I don't feel like really making content or I'm not inspired or whatever, you know, and John will just sort of give me a list of his ideas or his thoughts of of what content I could create. And I think it's important to have people who understand sort of what you're thinking about and going through is extremely important because when you don't, that's where I feel like you can get burnt out extremely, extremely quickly without you have even having to realize it. Harpreet: [00:48:29] Because I mean, trying to create content, it's like just screaming into a digital abyss, trying to convince the world, literally the world that that you exist in are worth listening to. So. Jonathan, how are you handling that? Do you ever get those bouts of creative burnout? Do you ever get those bouts of, Oh man, this content should perform better? Jonathan: [00:48:47] But yeah. Harpreet: [00:48:47] Like, how do you deal with that? Jonathan: [00:48:49] Yeah, it's funny, I Jerry mentioned that because literally right when Jerry mentioned that and he was able to get back on content had about. Three videos and a million I'm pretty sure on Tik Tok, so check us out. So that burnout does happen all the time, especially with the creators. Always remember that the content you create. Sometimes the idea is like, I think something that a lot of creators do is they think of their own content, which is wonderful. But the thing is, think about it. What we ought to be talking about are literally your community. Get the questions from the community. Get the content from the community. They ask you a question, make it into a piece of content. Literally, what I try to do all the time. I used to think about my content all the time, and now I look at my community. I'm like, Hey, what questions y'all got? Literally make content based on those questions. So always remember that your community is, of course, there for you, but you can also utilize that community to listen to and create answers to those questions which can turn into content. Harpreet: [00:49:45] Valuable advice. Thank you so much, guys. So a couple of questions here, then we can start beginning to wrap it up just real quick. What's the right way to ask for a mentor? How do we identify who we want as a mentor? Jonathan: [00:49:57] Great question. Our breed. I think mentorship comes organically. [00:50:00] I've never had a mentor. I don't know if you've ever had a mentor where you said, Hey, be my mentor if anybody ever takes time, 30 minutes, an hour, a year to spend with you and to help you. I mean, you're mentoring you. Mentorship is also a two way street awesome or mentor. Can be, of course, helping you. But what can you do for your mentor? I always think about that. I have about six mentors. They're all in corporate. I need more mentors if we're founders. So if any of you mentors are founders, I mean, all of them are mostly in corporate, but they're the ones who helped me kind of break into corporate and learn more about the corporate corporate world. And in turn, like now, I always, for example, one thing I always give to them is like, Hey, you want to give back and speak at a workshop, you want to speak about this event, and they're always willing to help out and kind of grow their brands with us. So I think mentorship happens organically just to tie it up. Jerry: [00:50:47] And a quick shout out, because I think, John, you also helped get Pooja, the person who connected us featured on a news article, right? Jonathan: [00:50:54] That's right. Puja got featured on Times of India, I believe. Yes. Yes. Harpreet: [00:50:59] Anything to add there about mentors? Like how do you identify? How do you go about finding this person might be a good candidate or that that that vetting process or what have you? Jerry: [00:51:10] Yeah, really. I think John hit the nail on the head like I don't know if there's really much I would add apart from just saying like just identify the areas of your life that are important to you and make sure you have a mentor there. For example, for me, career growth is still something I'm very passionate about, even for myself as a co-founder here. What is what is growing as as the leader, as an entrepreneur look like? I have a mentor there. I have someone who's more of like a sort of a life coach to me to help me understand what are things broader than just work and and and things that we do to help other people. What are some of the things I should be focused upon? I have a mentor for personal finance, right? So all those all these areas that are important to me, I make sure I have a mentor for so similar for everyone who's out there looking for a mentor. Just make sure you sort of have people in [00:52:00] your life that you could reach out to for these areas that are important to you. And if you don't find someone who fits the criteria that you're looking for, just reach out, say, Hey, I'd love to scratch your brain a little bit about how I can grow in this area. And the reason why I feel like most people would be down to talk to you is because the number one thing that people love to talk about themselves. Harpreet: [00:52:21] Yeah, that's absolutely right. So let's go ahead, wrap it up and then go into just real quick, random round. My last formal question is, it is 100 years in the future, what do you want to be remembered for? Let's go to Jonathan and then we will go to Jerry. Jonathan: [00:52:38] The question was about personal things. Harpreet: [00:52:40] No, just 100 years in the future. What do you want to be remembered for? Jonathan: [00:52:43] Oh, hundreds in the future. Yeah, that's a very interesting question. So what I want to be remembered for is just making an impact on the world. I think it's going to be very important, and I think we've been able to make a good impact, especially with the work that we've done. But of course, we want a skill that even more individuals and more people around the world. I think that if we're able to continuously do that to I mean, we've been doing it to millions of people now, but let's just try to get billions. I think that would be incredible. So just inspiring more underdogs or people who come from underrepresented backgrounds or nontraditional backgrounds to help them get into the careers and help them realize like, hey, we can do it as long as we put the work in, but also utilize the strategies that we love to teach all the time. So I think that's one thing to be remembered by. Jerry: [00:53:28] Similarly, I think for me, I think I would love to just be remembered by people just having made even just what their job search 1% easier. I think that's just the most important thing for me is that like if there's something that I shared or my work has done and has enabled you to feel even just 1% more confident, 1% more knowledgeable. I feel like my job has been done. So for me, it's more so about just making sure I hold that principle true more than the quantity of people I reach out [00:54:00] to or anything, and making sure I hold myself to that. No matter what happens in my life. I think it's just something I really am passionate about. Harpreet: [00:54:08] For a time. Thank you guys so much. Let's jump into a real quick random round. Quickly, what do you have on repeat? What song do you have on repeat? Let's go to Jerry then. Jerry: [00:54:16] John Anything by Khalid. I love Khalid songs as best. Jonathan: [00:54:21] Nathan Yeah, apparently my number one song of 2021 was Rasputin, which is a Tik Tok song, which I don't know how the heck it's my number one song, but I guess I'll go with that one. Harpreet: [00:54:32] Go ahead and do what I like to call the Random Question Generator. What talent would you like to show off in a talent show? So, Jonathan. Jonathan: [00:54:39] Please. Jerry: [00:54:40] I think he's lagging here. Harpreet: [00:54:41] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. It looks like my Internet was unstable. What talent would you like to show off in a talent show? Jonathan: [00:54:50] Oh, a talent talent show. Spinning back to my finger. Harpreet: [00:54:53] Easy, nice, nice. Jerry: [00:54:56] Shoot. I am triple jointed all my fingers. Harpreet: [00:54:59] That's interesting. That's interesting. What fictional place would you most like to go, Jerry? Jerry: [00:55:04] I might get a lot of hate for this, but I haven't read or seen any of the Harry Potter movies. Or maybe I've seen one when I was a kid. But I would love to go to a Harry Potter world. Harpreet: [00:55:14] Hogwarts, Hogwarts, Hogwarts. Jerry: [00:55:16] There we go. Harpreet: [00:55:18] All right, Jonathan, if you lost all of your possessions about one, what would you want it to be? Jonathan: [00:55:23] I would say, ooh, it's a tough one. Probably my lab, my my phone. Of course, my phone's literally where I make all my tiktoks and videos. Harpreet: [00:55:32] That I love. I need iCloud. Gentlemen, thank you so much for taking time at your schedule to come on to the show. How can people connect with you? Where can they find you? Jonathan: [00:55:41] With us on LinkedIn, Jonathan Xavier and Jerry Lee Tik Tok, once all things Jerry Lee and then Instagram, Jonathan words of wisdom and Jerry Lee there, please connect with us. You're from the podcast and looking forward to connecting soon and if you're interested anyone I want services do let us know once a thing dot com we got a lot of good stuff going on. [00:56:00] Jerry: [00:56:00] We'll be include all. Harpreet: [00:56:01] Of those links right there in the show notes my friends, thank you so much for coming on. And everybody watch and remember you've got one life on this planet. Why not try something? Here's everyone. Right.