Jon (00:05.614)
Hey there, welcome back to another Gone Mobile. Alan, if we're on video today, I've got the crazy hair going because I had to be outside in the cold, rainy weather and dealing with the dog. And so I think today we should talk about something that's like a little less triggering, a little more fun, a little more dream fulfilling. Yeah, exactly.

Allan Ritchie (00:29.246)
go with the hairdo because my hairdo is always always crazy always okay you just don't know what it's gonna do all right all right

Jon (00:33.934)
Yeah, mine usually is. I mean, I'm due for a haircut. So let's talk about something fun today, OK?

Allan Ritchie (00:41.406)
something fun. Well, WWDC is coming up, right?

Jon (00:45.134)
So, I mean, that could be fun. It could also be triggering, but we can talk about that.

Allan Ritchie (00:51.166)
Well, for you, yeah, for you, it's usually anxiety inducing, right?

Jon (00:56.27)
Yeah, exactly. When it, when it, it's soon, right? It's in June. Is it in June? It's always in June. This, this is the season of it. Uh, and, and I remember, you know, back in the day before COVID before, um, you know, economic conditions and everything, I used to get to go to the, uh, some of these, I never went to a WWDC, but that was kind of okay with me at the time. I was always like on the Android side of things.

Allan Ritchie (00:59.326)
Uh... Yeah, a month or two. But it's exciting.

Jon (01:25.102)
And I re I remember actually before I joined Xamarin, um, I was, I would wa like I was in a mobile, right? I was doing Xamarin stuff and you, you were at the same time too. And I, I don't know about you, but I always remember watching like the keynotes of, of Google IO and WWDC. Although I don't think you could watch WWDC at the time, maybe not even Google at the first ones. Right. I don't think they always live stream them.

Allan Ritchie (01:46.492)
Remember, I'm pretty sure Apple, you could watch a few of them.

Jon (01:51.086)
Maybe on your on your Apple device. It only worked. I think at first yeah Yeah Had to be Safari yeah, and and so I remember watching those are like knowing that those were happening and thinking like oh I Would just love to get to go to one of those one day and I even thought I think I would put my name in because that they were a lottery at the time like you'd have to win the chance to buy a ticket to them like you'd have to pay for them, but you'd have to win your chance to be able to pay for them. I

Allan Ritchie (01:53.628)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. You had to have it. I do remember that you had to have some sort of or it had to be Safari, right? Yeah.

Jon (02:21.006)
Right. I don't know. Did you ever enter them?

Allan Ritchie (02:22.011)
I never tried because the thing was that, you know, going back in time, I remember like all the announcements used to be done at conferences, like all of them, all the technical announcements. So like it didn't used to be called Microsoft build and there was no WWDC. You just had to wait. Right. So I stopped going to conferences because they stopped making all those announcements. It's like, I already knew you were going to talk about that.

Jon (02:41.518)
Mm -hmm.

Allan Ritchie (02:47.194)
But Apple's a little bit more closed ecosystem, right? They don't like you talking about stuff. So.

Jon (02:47.246)
Yeah.

Jon (02:52.654)
And, and Google did like to an extent they talked about things ahead of time, but that was where they always unveiled like the next Android and what was happening there. It was at Google IO, right? And so when it was early on, I think it, it already kind of peaked before I got, well, no, I think the first year I got to go was still in San Francisco. Cause they eventually moved it out to Mountain View. And so I got to go to this a few years, which, you know, I still kind of considered that.

Allan Ritchie (03:04.506)
It just was never anything exciting though.

Jon (03:21.07)
really lucky because it kind of fulfilled one of those kind of dreams I had as a not mobile developer for full -time work kind of thing. So I got to go to those and I remember just like the excitement about all of the new things being announced and maybe new phones, new hardware, new software, all the different things. And it was like really exciting times because every year something reasonably big would come out, I feel like. And then,

Allan Ritchie (03:46.874)
Yeah, that's true. Phones for a while there were like, you'd be like, wow. Like nowadays WWDC, they're just like, this is the biggest thing ever. And one more thing, right? That became the famous thing. But back in the day, it really was one more thing. And you'd be like, oh, that's cool, right?

Jon (03:52.814)
Yeah.

Jon (04:00.686)
Yeah.

Jon (04:06.926)
Yes. Yeah. And, and then I don't think Apple ever really gave away hardware at theirs, but Google did. I mean, gave away, right. You're paying for your, your conference ticket to be there. But like, I think the one year, uh, it was like, they gave her like a watch and a phone and something. I think that was the year I missed. And then the year I, the first year I went, I think they gave it a tablet, which was still pretty cool. And every year they did something. Although one year, I think it was like $500 of credits to like their, their app.

Allan Ritchie (04:15.898)
Yeah, your ticket.

Jon (04:36.334)
building platform or whatever. It was like, Oh, I don't want that. This is like, that's not a good prize. I mean, I, yeah, exactly. I, especially like I didn't have to pay for the tickets. Like that was all, all through Xamarin and we were lucky enough to go and we had to like ask, you know, try and reach out to someone that we, we had a contact with that Google or whatever, right? To like get on the list, to actually even buy tickets to go. And I remember the, for WWDC, I don't think we had a contact. So everybody was told to apply and then like,

Allan Ritchie (04:41.242)
I want the hardware. Give me the toys, man. Give me the toys.

Jon (05:06.254)
we would get a few randomly or whatever selected, one, the chance to go. And they would kind of divvy that out between people who they thought should go. Cause part of it was like, you got to go talk to the engineers, right? Which was helpful for us, especially in Xamarin days when like, especially even Apple, even today, Apple, like it's really hard to get a hold of someone to talk to internally. Like you'd think everyone thinks like, Oh, Microsoft, like,

you've got connections and stuff. And there is to an extent with, with some teams like the office team, you know, they're I think pretty well connected, but that doesn't translate over. Like we don't have somebody generally that we can go say, Hey, we have a problem. Like what's up. Um, it's, it's a little better now than it was, but it's still not like, it's not a given, right? So we would go to those and that would be helpful. And then I remember the first year I went and we had just been acquired the year before.

Allan Ritchie (05:41.113)
Yeah, they're.

Jon (06:04.622)
And so we went as Microsoft people and that was hilarious because we had, they have the badges, your lanyards with your company name that you're from and every, well, no, but anytime we went up to any Google engineers, they would start talking. Then you could see them glance at the badge and see, and you know, presumably see Microsoft and like it was uncanny, like right away they'd kind of like shut down and like, Oh, I gotta go do this other thing. Sorry. So yeah, it was fun times.

Allan Ritchie (06:12.442)
Did you get booed?

Allan Ritchie (06:27.354)
You're there to plunder tech.

Jon (06:31.822)
Yeah, I just wanted to get more inside track on how things work and were built so that we could be doing the right things. It was all fairly innocent. It's not like we were trying to, there's no espionage going on. It was all above board, just make our product work better for our mutual customers. That was what I tried to say.

Allan Ritchie (06:50.554)
Indeed. You know, the last conference I went to and it was exciting. Do you want to guess? It was like 10 years, 12 years ago. It was an evolve. It was an evolve. Sam or evolve. And I.

Jon (06:58.35)
Uh, was it a build or ignite or something? Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. I've all goodness, but you didn't, you didn't go to the last one. Did you? Which one did you go to?

Allan Ritchie (07:07.386)
No, I went to the first one, right? And yes, it was in Austin. And the food was amazing, but yeah, I never met you there. And who knew? Who knew? But, you know, that was a good one. It was a really good one because that was the last time I remember, you know, you didn't know what was coming.

Jon (07:10.478)
In Austin. Okay. That's, you know, it's funny because I was there. You were there. Yeah.

Jon (07:22.318)
That was a fun one.

Allan Ritchie (07:30.841)
And yeah, a lot of it was a bit Phantom where Miguel was a master Miguel and stuff was a master of the Phantom where, but it was exciting, right? Because that's what we went to that conference. Like the reason I go to conferences, I guess there was a little bit, um, I didn't abuse them. I could have, but I didn't. I wanted to go and see, okay, well, how stable is the company? You know, what's the roadmap?

Jon (07:34.254)
Uh...

Yeah.

Jon (07:50.606)
Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (07:52.793)
you know, stuff that you just couldn't pick up a phone and talk to somebody, right? So going to that one was, was yeah, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna give you guys a try, right? And it was exciting. I mean, they, there was the IDE had like the storyboard designer. So it was like, oh my God, I don't have to use Xcode. And I remember all the announcements. You're like, really? Really? And, and a lot of them did come to light. So some of them didn't.

Jon (08:01.326)
It was, it was, I mean, it was well done. And that was.

Jon (08:09.934)
Yeah.

Jon (08:19.726)
A lot of them did.

Allan Ritchie (08:21.944)
But it was, it was still, listen, that time was, was awesome, uh, to watch everything that was going on. And it was nowadays. It feels like you, you know, you watch some of these conferences and you're like, yeah, yeah. You either already knew that or it's just like, it's like marketing. I'm like,

Jon (08:37.07)
Yeah, it's, it's not in that like golden era, right? Like it's like looking back now. Yeah, it's, that was a special time and there's so much happening so quickly and even the mobile space. And I remember like, you know, Xamarin did a good job. And I think, I don't remember, I think it was the, the Atlanta conference, maybe that.

I just remember like Nat doing the keynote and just talking about how like, you know, we're at the beginning of this, this revolution of mobile and like everybody's got going to have one of these in their pockets and, or did even at that point, but it was like early days. Right. And that I think is a good way to summarize that time, which is just, it was exploding. Everything was, was happening.

Allan Ritchie (09:18.647)
Everything was everything was new and shiny right everything was exciting the conference was exciting now It's like we know everything that's there. What?

Jon (09:21.87)
Yeah, yeah. And now...

It's like, yeah, ooh, better camera again. Okay, yay.

Allan Ritchie (09:31.255)
Thanks. Okay, but let's talk about so we want we really want to talk about what are we looking forward to this year, right? So WWDC is coming. Google IO is I don't know about that one. I'm not a Google lover of myself.

Jon (09:43.406)
I don't, I don't even know the, what they do anymore for that. If it's, if it's still a conference or not. Okay. I mean, they've, to be fair, like Google has gotten, like you said, like Apple's pretty closed. Google kind of just talks about things as they happen now. And there's previews of Android early, early, early, right? Like there's not a lot they're holding back, which isn't as exciting, but it is kind of nice as a developer to have things that are predictable and not, you know, be just shocked by stuff.

Allan Ritchie (09:49.175)
They still do it.

Allan Ritchie (10:10.007)
Yes. Like WWDC, I mean, last year, everybody knew that the headset was coming, like the VR. They knew, everybody knew it. Somehow it leaked out. So, but it was still exciting. I don't know if it, I don't know how well the sales are doing in it. I don't, I haven't seen like a huge burst in development on it yet. You know, John and I have been talking about VR movies like,

Jon (10:18.702)
Yeah. Yep.

Jon (10:31.342)
No. It's so expensive.

Allan Ritchie (10:36.727)
What's the latest thing we've been doing is those Disney rides and VR, which is pretty cool. But I don't, I haven't seen anything where it's like, oh my God, I need to go buy, you know, the Apple VR stuff. See, I don't even, the name, Apple Vision. Is that, yeah, yeah, that's, sorry. See, the name doesn't even stick with me yet. Worse like an iPhone did.

Jon (10:40.046)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jon (10:48.686)
Not for that much money. Apple Vision Pro. It's the Vision Pro, right?

Well, and, and, but they, but they were like the whole speculation there, right. Is that Apple vision pro is the first thing and that leaves room for just like the non pro, you know, pleb version of Apple vision. Um, and so maybe they come out, I doubt it. We'd see reports, but like you could always dream. Maybe there's a lower cost Apple vision around the corner.

Allan Ritchie (11:17.239)
I'm waiting to see. I'm waiting to see. I'm hoping I'm not doing it yet. But once those once the they've been talking about those immersive movies, so that's something to look forward to. So when we talk about WWDC this year, that's what I want to see. Are they going to have that? Are they going to have? Are they going to show us like this is an immersive movie? You can watch Star Wars and it's like you're holding the lightsaber. I don't want to be moving around. I want to sit there and eat my popcorn. But like I want to see the lightsaber as if I'm like.

Jon (11:22.382)
Nah.

Jon (11:26.99)
That's cool. Mm -hmm.

Jon (11:44.206)
They have the agreement with Disney about 3D movies. I know you've got some... I don't know if you had a TV that could do it or something at some point, but... Okay.

Allan Ritchie (11:56.086)
I had a 3D TV, which was, you know what, it was pretty darn good, the 3D, but you could say it's immersive, but it's just 3D. Like it's nothing new, you know what I mean? What they were showing or what they've been talking about is the immersive, like a VR movie.

Jon (12:01.294)
Yeah.

Jon (12:09.006)
Yeah, no, but -

Jon (12:13.486)
Yeah, like you're you're 360 like you can turn your head. You're in the environment kind of thing. Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (12:18.006)
Yeah, that's that's what I'm looking for. That would be the cool thing. I don't know how they're going to do it, but.

Jon (12:22.99)
But I don't know either. I do think though, the one interesting thing that seems to be kind of under the radar is the whole Disney catalog of 3D movies. They basically, not that they invented a new format, but 3D content until this point has been 1080p, really, right? It's lower resolution. And then you split that up between the...

Allan Ritchie (12:44.822)
Yeah, they can't push it.

Jon (12:49.87)
I don't know, however the 3D imagery works like side by side or yeah, so you have even lower kind of resolution I think is how it works. And so they did up the resolution now. I think it's like true 4K like per eye or whatever. I don't know. So it seems like that's cool, but that's like exclusive to Apple Vision Pro at this point. I mean, us Quest 3 owners, if we could just get Disney to give that to us too, that'd be great. Cause well, we saw that happen with, so.

Allan Ritchie (12:52.374)
You're rendering it twice basically is what happens.

Allan Ritchie (13:15.446)
I guess we'll wait and see. You never know.

Jon (13:18.638)
So Apple last year, I don't know if it was WWC where they showed it up. Well, no, it was whenever that, yeah, whenever they showed off the vision pro stuff with like the, what do they call the picture taking? Um, uh, yeah, no, it's gonna, it's gonna bug me cause they have like the, the, it's not immersive. I almost have to open the camera up because if you have an iPhone 15 pro or pro max, I think is where it starts. You can take these videos in.

Allan Ritchie (13:30.038)
I couldn't even tell you it was called Vision Pro. It's called an Apple Vision.

Jon (13:47.63)
the mode that is, it shows like even the vision goggles on the phone. I don't know what it's called, but there's a mode you take it in and it's taking like 3D video. And then you can watch that back. Cause that was one of the whole selling points of the vision pro is to watch like the, it's like, you know, faded like border. It's like you're reliving these big magical moments, right? Now the cool thing is quest three meta.

Allan Ritchie (13:53.046)
Ooh.

Allan Ritchie (13:57.462)
Weird.

Allan Ritchie (14:01.494)
I do remember that.

Jon (14:13.55)
Basically said hey we can use that format and they implemented it right so like I took a bunch of videos when we went to Belize in that format and we can watch them back on the quest 3 in that like dreamy immersive mode So it's that's pretty cool But if they could take it a step farther like you're saying with you know a Star Wars movie where you're like in the thing that will be just the pinnacle

Allan Ritchie (14:35.51)
That would be pretty cool. That's what I that that would be pretty cool. Now, in terms of hardware, there's only one toy that I'm particularly waiting for. I've been waiting for this for years. I'm I they're saying 2025. But I'm like this big guy I want. I don't want to carry a wallet. I don't want to have a tablet. I just want the all in one. Right. So Google's had this for a few years with the old flip like flip phones or.

Jon (14:50.606)
Yeah.

Jon (15:02.35)
Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (15:03.094)
So it basically turns into a tablet. Microsoft tried it with that Surface phone, but they charged like, I don't know what your marketing people were doing. Yeah, you have one. Yeah, get lost, John. I want that. It doesn't work though anymore, does it? It's a relic. Is it on Android 10?

Jon (15:10.574)
see that back there? It's a really... I mean it does. It's the first gen one. I don't know what version. It's the first gen. There was a whole other second generation. I didn't ever get one of those.

Allan Ritchie (15:24.086)
and it has hinge problems and...

Jon (15:26.894)
I never tried using it as a daily driver to be honest.

Allan Ritchie (15:28.598)
I'm so jealous. Don't tell me I don't even want to hear it. I'm, I'm, I'm jealous of you. And the fact that that thing's probably got an inch worth of dust on it is, is disturbing, but yeah, I know. But so I keep waiting for Apple to do it. Now their tablet sales are still good. Right. So I don't know, but you know, those old flip screens, like where it just folds out in a single screen, I want the Apple version of that. Like if they released it tomorrow, I would be like, give me.

Jon (15:37.262)
Yeah, I mean it's Android though.

Jon (15:45.966)
Mm -hmm.

Jon (15:54.19)
That would be pretty cool.

Allan Ritchie (15:57.686)
I would be like one of those guys running people over to try and get into the store. I hate being that way. And I've never been that way, but I really want an Apple flip phone. Give me an Apple flip phone and take my money. This it. You know, you'd be getting it. You don't, don't pretend you would be in that line tomorrow. Pre -ordering it. It, I trust me listeners that know John, you know, if you know him, you know, damn well, he would be like,

Jon (16:06.606)
I don't know, I'd have to see it. I don't know if I do, but.

Jon (16:18.542)
Maybe, it depends how it's done.

Allan Ritchie (16:26.358)
shelling it out like this.

Jon (16:28.398)
I don't have the vision pro that's, you know, proof enough that I don't do that. I, well, I mean, it didn't, it didn't hurt that they didn't sell it. Don't sell it in Canada. I think even still. So, I mean, that was a, that helped. I know, I know. I know. I know.

Allan Ritchie (16:31.03)
You fought though, you fought though. There was a lot of discussions about it.

Allan Ritchie (16:40.374)
But you were debating, you were like, I'll go across the border and get it. But you held back because it's only gen one, right? So you just.

Jon (16:48.334)
Yeah, well, there you go. I'm not going to buy gen one of a foldable iPhone either. I'd be close. I'd wait for you to buy it and see how you liked it first. But what I want to actually, and this is just, I mean, they're going to do it. They're iPads that need refreshing. So like, hopefully that comes along. I don't think they're going to do anything crazy with the hardware though. Like it's just going to be a, you know, bigger, stronger, faster. Like we always see my, my kids' iPads are on the last, their last legs. They're like,

Allan Ritchie (16:50.966)
But you were close. You were close. I'm glad I can be the guinea pig.

Jon (17:17.646)
six years old now and I don't and I went to go look at I'm like, wait a minute. How old is the one that's out? Oh, it's like 18 months old. I can't buy this right now. They're going to come up with a new one right away. So.

Allan Ritchie (17:18.678)
Yep.

Allan Ritchie (17:29.654)
So what are you hoping for the iPads? Is there anything specific or just? I their pros have the M in it, right?

Jon (17:33.198)
Uh, just, I, I, I, yeah. Well the, the air does too. So what I'd love to see is an, is a non air, non pro iPad with the silicone Apple silicon chips in them, but I don't know if they'll do that yet. I think they'll probably still throw like a, the phone processor in it. Um, but that would be nice. Like I just, I don't, these things are expensive now. Like I went to go, well, like truthfully, one of the kids, iPads is dying, but, um,

If I switch them now, the new one's going to be USB -C, which is great, but there's no way I'm dealing with like one kid having lightning and one USB -C and then like the cables and all that comes with that. Like, no, I just, I can't, I can't do it. So if I'm replacing one, I'm replacing both. Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (18:14.87)
That that'll trigger you that'll trigger you. You can't have that one cord. I've got so many lightning cables though. I fine.

Jon (18:21.486)
So yeah, I mean, my phone's now USB -C. All that's left then is my wife's phone too. And so I think if at that point, like, well, you're getting a new phone now because... Yes.

Allan Ritchie (18:32.534)
That is your reason for getting the Apple flip phone if they announce it. I guarantee it that that's going to be his excuse. I 100 % you but dude, you knew you were going to go this right anyways, you know darn well if that flip phone is announced, I will bet money. I will bet money that you will.

Jon (18:40.43)
Oh, I like that.

Jon (18:44.878)
No, no, no, no.

Jon (18:49.934)
Only only because I can then pass off my current one right to her and then I can it's just an excuse. Yeah So but so how are they gonna? Do like i'd be really curious what what their ux is gonna be like for that for something foldable

Allan Ritchie (18:54.294)
Yes, of course, that's your excuse. Yeah, I get it. You cover it however you want.

Allan Ritchie (19:08.758)
You know what, Apple's pretty, I've heard this year that they're gonna do a fair bit of stuff. Like I heard that the UI was gonna change up. So either they're prepping for this stuff or they just need to find a way to say it's the biggest release ever, because they do that every year, right?

Jon (19:11.63)
They're pretty good at that.

Jon (19:26.062)
Why they will, it always will be right. It's plus one version at least. So.

Allan Ritchie (19:30.326)
But like they haven't done anything monumental with the UI because they haven't really needed to. But at the same time, things are kind of bland at this point, right? So.

Jon (19:32.814)
Nah.

No. Yeah, you kind of have to every once in a while, right? Like iOS was at seven. That was kind of the last, I mean, there's been more like incremental, but there was like the one release that was pivotally different than the version before. I think it was like between six and seven or seven and eight.

Allan Ritchie (19:53.686)
Yeah, I think you're right. And it got significantly prettier, right? And.

Jon (19:57.742)
Yeah. So you have to do that every once in a while just to keep people interested, I think, if nothing less, right?

Allan Ritchie (20:04.662)
Well, you got to give me a reason to buy something new, right? Besides here's a fourth camera on the eye now. Right. Because I personally, I mean, I also love because I'm also the progressive. I don't want to carry around a wallet. Right. I want my camera. Now all the photo professionals will tell me, OK, we're using a phone. But now a lot of them are saying, yeah, you don't have a pro. So you're not don't go away. Right. So.

Jon (20:31.982)
Yeah, no, but I mean, they're so good at like any, any reasonably new phone is awesome at that. Like that, for me, that ship sailed the years ago where I was finally like, okay, I have no reason to want to bring like a camera along because the phone is fine and like on vacations and stuff. Right. So, and that's been fine for awhile.

Allan Ritchie (20:46.198)
Exactly.

I mean, unless you're gonna go to Disney, cause John's got a trip coming up to Disney, are you gonna do like the GoPro so we have some more 3D videos? Why not? Come on, go do that. I wanna write. All right, fine.

Jon (20:59.406)
I don't want to deal with that. I mean, I thought about it, but then and then I think when I mentioned it, my wife's like, no, you can go in the single rider line then. Yeah. See ya. Yeah. No, there's plenty of good ones out there. I don't need to add my own or buy the equipment for it. So foldable phone, if they do that.

Allan Ritchie (21:07.318)
Heheheheh

Well hey, that has its own advantages. You don't have to wait a light, just... Okay, see you later.

Allan Ritchie (21:20.211)
Fine, fine, fine. Still, foldable foldable phones is what I'm personally waiting for in terms of toys. Now what about APIs? I know Apple's big on AI this year, but AI is more of a manufactured thing. Like it doesn't, it's like give us a model and it, I don't want to say it all seems the same, but it all seems the same.

Jon (21:32.91)
This... Yeah.

Jon (21:44.11)
But you know what I think that they could do is, and like if you've seen, I'm not actually gonna go here, cause I don't know what I have access to that isn't known or whatever on my build of my Windows machine. But I think like what they could do is try and make it so that developers are kind of like have first party access to some of that and to try and make the API's easy enough that.

you might be able to throw some context into something in your app and get something useful out of it. Or even if it's just like maybe an API to help surface context behind the scenes that some like global universal, you know, Siri integration would be able to benefit from. So if you're like, I think of something like my pool app, right? I we've we've been playing around with, with chat GPT models and stuff for some of this. And it's actually pretty like scary good.

where you could start to say like, here's the current levels of chemicals and stuff in my pool. We'll have fed it context of like our, we have like a huge PDF of like swimming pool maintenance and how the chemistry works and all this different stuff. And so we'll feed that together and be like, here's the current state of the pool. Like what, what do I need to do? And it'll be like, oh, well, your chlorine level should be this. So you should add this and this, and then you should do that and that.

So I could see some API to surface context like that from the app and have it be able to like even maybe give it some suggested prompts and stuff and then have that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Allan Ritchie (23:15.888)
Now on the phone though, right? As opposed to online, right? Cause a lot of stuff, all the services right now is get online, pay us a damn fortune to run it. And I mean, Google has kind, is there's on offline? I think it's got some offline abilities.

Jon (23:31.886)
Yeah, I think that's where Apple's strength will lie, right? Because that's always been their thing, and even Siri and stuff, right? You don't want to necessarily have everything that you're doing go up to the cloud. So I think from a privacy perspective, that's something they'll do. But yeah, I could see that kind of approach to enabling developers to integrate it into their apps, and that being a way to differentiate your app from other platforms and other apps and do the whole like...

marketing PR arm of like sell more apps, right? Cause ultimately the more apps that people buy, Apple's doing well with it.

Allan Ritchie (24:01.263)
You -

Allan Ritchie (24:05.232)
Well, making your app part of the platform is, I think, one of the big things, right? Because like with Android, I guess Apple has some now where you can do like the widgets on the front screen, but they're really kind of weak, right? You can't really do a lot. You really want your app to be part of the whole experience of being part of the platform. Because Apple's apps, they all integrate at some point, right? And you don't need to...

Jon (24:16.302)
Mm -hmm.

Allan Ritchie (24:31.536)
It's beyond just the handover to this app. So here's my file handed over to this app. It's gone beyond that at this point.

Jon (24:38.574)
Well, and part of that, I think we saw years ago too, like another area that I could see them improving in this space is some of the series shortcut stuff. Like I don't know how often you see on your phone from apps use and stuff, but like you pull down the search and it's kind of like, Oh, you might want to do this right now. Right. Like, so if the app kind of integrates with that, so maybe there's a play with, with AI to kind of help improve context awareness or like, you know, figure out like, what is the user going to want kind of thing.

Allan Ritchie (25:08.143)
Cause they don't have really a ton of hooks to get involved there. So it would definitely let us get involved.

Jon (25:11.726)
No, and it's pretty, it's pretty minimal. Like that's one of the things that stopped me from adding that to the pool math is like one of the use cases I'd love to be able to add is like, I, it's time, like I want to, um, log my test results, right. And to prompt people to do that. Now I can do that just in like a generic, like, Hey, you know, you should log your right, but you, you couldn't, and maybe it's changed since, and I haven't looked at it, but originally when it came out, you couldn't really,

Allan Ritchie (25:33.136)
They have those intents.

Jon (25:41.454)
be parameterized enough with them for my uses. Like I could say like when they added a test result, I could say like, here's the intent, it's a test result, their chlorine level was this, their pH was this. And it would only kind of let you do that in the sense of it would prompt back later to be like, hey, do you want to log a test result? And it kind of predetermined the values. Or I'm like, no, I want you to like be able to talk to Siri.

and say, I want to log a test result and for it to be able to ask you, okay, well, what was this and what was this? And then enter it for you, but it couldn't do that at the time.

Allan Ritchie (26:18.576)
Yeah, it's not really a language model right now. It's more of a here's the speech to text, parse that and see what you get. Right. It didn't didn't really understand.

Jon (26:20.814)
No.

Jon (26:24.494)
Yeah, yeah, so that's a good way to think of it, I guess, too, is like, yeah, maybe integrating more of that into language models and having that interaction be more natural. That would be cool.

Allan Ritchie (26:38.063)
Now what about APIs we don't want? I can think of one right away. May 1st is coming. Oh.

Jon (26:40.91)
I can think of several, any of them that require dramatic changes on our part to integrate into Maui.

Allan Ritchie (26:50.607)
Well, if you haven't had the pleasure of working with the research kit yet, but I can tell you that flips the game. We won't even go into Google. You poor essentials guys. You're not going to like what Google is coming with, but, um, the XC privacy stuff or the Apple privacy info stuff.

Jon (26:59.406)
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (27:07.951)
What a pain. What are they doing? I would love to see that die. I'm hoping that May 1st. I have a feeling there'll be lacks out of the box as long as you include like you attempted to do it. You attempted to put the privacy in. They'll probably let it slide for the first little while. But if they don't, people are going to be like, what is this junk you're making? This is make work. Like you have to basically say, why are you using settings? What the hell? What do you mean? Why am I using settings? Shut up.

Jon (27:21.55)
Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (27:36.238)
If that's insecure, what are you doing wrong?

Jon (27:36.302)
Yeah, but I mean, that's.

Yeah, there's so much coming down from, I think there's a lot of like US government directed security kind of order things going on. And so that's probably driving some of that too. So I don't see that changing, unfortunately.

Allan Ritchie (27:55.247)
It's, it's, but some of it, if you see these files, some of it's, it's like duplication, right? So tracking location. Well, what's being tracked with your location? A user ID? Okay, yes. But you asked for those permissions. So it's, it's kind of redundant.

Jon (28:01.742)
Mm -hmm.

Allan Ritchie (28:09.263)
And then stuff like, like settings, I kind of understand because like they're so big on, you can't track across browsers and stuff, but you can. So they had the device you had, you could use for years. Google still allows you pretty much freely to do that. Right. You can't get the IMEI off the phone anymore. I don't think, but you can get like a device ID, but an easy way to get around that was, Hey, I'll just make a good stored in the settings and send that. So we know that that's a device ID because.

Jon (28:26.702)
Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (28:38.384)
Are they going to really try and figure that out and copy it across to another phone? Right. Like, so, okay. So they get rid of the device tracking, but is, is that really such a need? Like our apps doing that malicious stuff like.

Jon (28:50.638)
Yeah, I don't... I mean, maybe.

Allan Ritchie (28:53.903)
When I think about apps I've written for customers that do kind of some of the heavy background tracking, it's usually for like, hey, my employee, I'm tracking where they are. Not because I want to know how to, like, are they stealing or whatever? It's more like, hey, you're on a delivery. I want to reroute you here. Maybe check your time for when you're going to be over here, right? Like it's not malicious and most employers don't use it maliciously, right? So I'm like, are they really that many apps?

Jon (29:17.518)
Yeah, that's legitimate news case. Yep.

Allan Ritchie (29:23.888)
that are getting through the cracks that are doing these bad things. Because I haven't seen them, have you?

Jon (29:29.294)
No, I mean, maybe there's maybe there's more on Android. Maybe that's why Apple's doing it. Cause they're, they're good at being proactive about not enabling that scenario that much on their platform. I don't know. Maybe part of it's with the different store stuff too, right? Cause they have a little bit less control, um, from a, uh, app gating perspective, right? Review perspective. Once all these other stores like in the EU and stuff pop up. So I could see that as a way for them tracking some of them.

Allan Ritchie (29:40.912)
I don't know.

Allan Ritchie (29:56.335)
Yeah, so now that they kicked up the beehive now and they're just like, oh yeah, okay, now we're gonna get really annoying. So yeah, thanks, you're up. We don't get the app stores that you do think. I mean, I would love a custom app store where we don't have to beg and plead and you know what you're getting. Like if.

Jon (29:57.966)
things more on their own platform.

Jon (30:02.83)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Thanks a lot, Europe.

Jon (30:11.182)
Yeah, we don't get the benefit. We just have to deal with the consequences. Thanks. Yeah, me too.

Even you know what? I would still use the Apple App Store. That's fine I just don't like even just to be able to not do all of the provisioning dance around for like previews and stuff like if if we could side load apps just for like that scenario because I'll tell you what like this is gonna be a side tangent little rant People like to complain about the App Store and the cut that they take and everything Yeah, it's a lot

Allan Ritchie (30:29.679)
Oh, yeah.

Allan Ritchie (30:46.543)
I get it.

Jon (30:47.502)
And I can, I get it even more for like the bigger corporations that are like, like Netflix or whatever. I think some of them have deals now. I'm sure they do like even closed door deals, right? But I can understand that where you're like, no, you're not taking like 30 % of, you know, a cut of our service just because it's, you know, we want to be on your platform too. Like I get that. But I think of like my app, I have no problem with the fee they take. And like, so a couple of things, like first of all,

It's 30 % for like in -app purchases, like one -off things. If you take away the tax that they're collecting on your behalf, like in Canada, our tax rate is 13%, right? So right away that includes that. I don't have to think about it. It's they're collecting the tax. I mean, there's implications of how you report that and whatever, but that 30 % includes that part too.

Right? So that's they're not actually taking 30 % at the end of the day. Obviously some countries are, they're going to gain a little bit and some they're going to lose a little bit. The other part of it is like, I do subscriptions. I do yearly subscriptions. The first year that someone subscribes, they take that 30 % every subsequent year it drops down to 15. So.

Allan Ritchie (32:00.397)
That's not bad. But they also process all those subscriptions. All the framework is done.

Jon (32:03.246)
They also process it. So all the processing fees. Yep. So at the end of the day, like it's not that crazy. I would almost argue I'd rather see them lighten up on or not even lighten up, just get better at the like review process because some of that silly, like I've, you can submit a, an app and just depends on, you know, the way the wind is blowing, if they're going to approve it or not, or reject it for some crazy reason, right? I'm sure you've, you've hit this many times.

Allan Ritchie (32:27.694)
I said that the truth.

Jon (32:31.886)
you're submitting an app and five times it's fine. And then the sixth time you publish a new version, they rejected on something that's been unchanged the whole time. Right. And then you're finally like, well, I didn't, you care about this the first five times. I don't know. We just didn't look at it. So like that, I could, would almost argue. I'd like that to get better. I don't care about the fee that they take. I know it's not going to get better, but like people are kind of ranting about the wrong thing to some extent. I feel like anyway.

Allan Ritchie (32:52.973)
That's not going to get better. That's not going to get better.

Allan Ritchie (33:00.461)
Yeah, I get it from both sides. It's like 30 % still is a large cut. And who's to say that they're the best to pay the tax on your behalf?

Jon (33:08.462)
It is large cut.

Jon (33:14.446)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you could argue like, okay, maybe 20 % is more reasonable. I don't know. Like, anyway.

Allan Ritchie (33:19.597)
Yeah. So the other thing, so if we're looking at APIs and stuff, obviously the thing that gives you the most anxiety, this one's easy. UI changes. So if we get a foldable phone, what happens there? Does the UI change? Do you guys still have, cause I remember there was a whole thing about the foldable Android frameworks. Is that still a thing? Must be. I haven't used it. I want to use it.

Jon (33:30.766)
Yeah.

Jon (33:40.846)
Yep. Yes. So the, I mean, I helped, well, I helped build parts of it. I know Shane did like the bulk of the work on the actual, cause there was like a, did we call it a two pane view? I think it's still in, in Maui as another package. Wow. I don't even know where it lives anymore.

Allan Ritchie (33:56.909)
Yep.

Allan Ritchie (34:01.933)
Neither do I. You never hear about it anymore because the Surface phones kind of died. As with all Microsoft hardware, it eventually finds a place in the gutter.

Jon (34:04.718)
No. Yeah.

Jon (34:13.23)
Yeah, but I mean, like there's other Android phones that are still that like still have that support in them, right? So like the two, yeah, it's two pane view and it supports, it supported the duo stuff, but also like just normal Android foldables. And I think.

Allan Ritchie (34:28.749)
The Pixel doesn't have a foldable yet, does it? Come on, Google. Yeah, let's get it out. Come on, Apple and Google. Let's do this.

Jon (34:31.758)
No, I think it's just Samsung, but I think that there's lots of rumors that a pixel one's coming too. So it's out there. I knew it was, it was interesting. The idea of it, right. Just to change your react, your UI to kind of different modes that your device is in. Like, I, yeah, I don't know. The thing that I think will be interesting for, for Apple is if they go that route.

They gotta do it in a way that's fairly seamless to all existing apps to that and like to make them work pretty well. I think they do.

Allan Ritchie (35:03.789)
Do they work and they just say this opens in a single pain and you you get like a like a maybe an easier.

multi -app experience, right? So let's say I have a document like Word, for example, right? Let's say I open, maybe they allow me to open two instances like Word and Excel and I could drag and drop a little bit easier between them, maybe, right? So you can still take advantage of the single pane apps or you can kind of do it more responsive, like here's the tablet version, right? So you build your tablet.

Jon (35:15.15)
Maybe.

Jon (35:24.942)
Mm -hmm.

Jon (35:32.814)
Well, do they, I mean, I guess here's the question. If they do foldable, is it going to be like the duo was and have like a, a hinge in the middle, or is it going to be like you're saying, like, you know, a nice OLED screen that just is the whole thing.

Allan Ritchie (35:44.301)
foldable OLED, foldable OLED. Yeah, that's what I want. The foldable, have you seen those? Because they are awesome.

Jon (35:50.094)
Cause if you, but that's the thing, like, and I agree. I think that's maybe what they're waiting for. And if you do it that way, you, at the end of the day, you still just have a big screen. You're not trying to like, yeah, yeah. You're not trying to dodge, you know, gutters and stuff like that. It'll, it may be that the play like is just, okay, if your app works on a phone and you have the same app and it works on iPad and you've already done decisions about how that.

Allan Ritchie (36:01.037)
It's a tablet. Tablet mode.

Jon (36:17.678)
you know, how you adapt in those two scenarios, then it just does that, right?

Allan Ritchie (36:21.901)
Yep. And then you know what's going to happen once we have that, that, that tablet kind of view, that Apple Pen will become a bigger thing. I will use an Apple Pen. My daughter steals mine. I have no idea where it is in my house. It's just gone.

So she uses it for a lot of her stuff, but you know what? I would probably use it again. If I had my tablet phone, which is what I want, I don't want to buy the iPhone pro max or whatever it is. The tablet, I call it the tablet phone because when you're talking in it, it looks like you're holding like a, like a slab to your face. You're going to get a sunburn from it. I, I just, I want a phone and I want it to fold open to beauty and I want to be able to write on it. Take my money. I,

Jon (36:46.51)
Yeah, that's too big.

Jon (36:51.885)
Yeah, you got to two -hand it.

Jon (37:00.91)
Yeah. I mean, maybe you're making me more interested in it.

Allan Ritchie (37:05.261)
I know it's dude, you were gonna buy this. I don't know why we're down this path. You're gonna buy it. If they announce it, you're gonna buy it. I bet money on it. I bet a lot of money on that. I can't get you to buy a lightsaber, but I guarantee you buy a foldable iPhone. Because it'll be the i tablet at that point, right?

Jon (37:21.71)
It'd be interesting to see what they would call it.

Allan Ritchie (37:25.965)
But I don't think that they have to change the UI that much, but there is a lot of rumors that they are changing it this year.

Jon (37:34.542)
But do you think it's changed like functional change or more just like the styling change? Like how, you know, like Google went to, you know, material 2 .0 or whatever point. Oh, it was.

Allan Ritchie (37:44.013)
Maybe, maybe, because I know that they, you know, they like to call everything like, I don't know, what was the terms that they used to have? I don't remember. Oh, so like, if we think about the last huge UI change, this is what I like to laugh about, was dark mode. Apple made such a big deal over the flip in dark mode. I'm like, really? This is the revolution this year, man. Really?

Jon (37:55.79)
Oh.

Jon (38:10.318)
That's what they do though, right? Well, my favorite always is like every keynote where they announce like a new, usually it's Mac OS that's most funny about this when they're talking about the new version of Mac OS. It's like, there's a whole segment on like the mail app, right? And like all the, like it's an email client. Who cares? Come on guys.

Allan Ritchie (38:13.709)
This is Ford.

Allan Ritchie (38:26.701)
Yeah. Which I don't even use because I can't.

Jon (38:33.71)
Right, right. So like, okay, fine. That's nice. But like just let's get on with the actual interesting stuff. But no.

Allan Ritchie (38:43.277)
So what about Android and Google this year? See, I don't particularly love Android. There's nothing that I really love about Android. Again, I've been warning you that Essentials permissions, you're going to hate what they're doing because every permission is changing the way you go off to a secondary screen now for everything like background permissions. And I don't know what I was doing recently.

Jon (39:07.566)
Is this all, this is all Android 14 already or 15?

Allan Ritchie (39:09.357)
time sensitive notifications, 13 some of these started. But then now as you go to 14 and 15, they're gonna do more of these custom screens like Android Health is its own screen. So it's not like what you guys are doing with Essentials, it's not gonna be pluggable. Basically what you do is when On Resume is called, you go, well, let's see if those permissions came back. Were you tracking anything? Were you tracking an intent ID or anything that came back?

Jon (39:26.446)
Hmm.

Jon (39:37.71)
Well, we do that already for some other areas of APIs, so it might not be that bad. We've...

Allan Ritchie (39:43.085)
It's not awful, it's just not great. Like it's not that the permission, the on permissions in the activity, it's just, it's not used as much anymore. It now goes off to these screens and then on resume, you have to start checking. Did you come back from that intent? Okay, you did. Okay, do you have any keys in there or should I recheck my permissions? Like it's just not as clear cut as it used to be, which sucks. It sucks. Why?

Jon (39:58.606)
Right.

Jon (40:02.862)
Mm -hmm.

Jon (40:08.078)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that sounds a lot like the browser, some of the browser scenarios, like the, what do they call them? Custom Chrome, custom tab. I mean, that was the early name. So we already have like, and that has been, yeah, I mean, that's been a difficult area in some ways because it's just, yeah, it's so weird. And then like one of the traditional things from a, like an app perspective is an Amoey perspective is like, if somehow that,

Allan Ritchie (40:18.765)
Yeah.

Jon (40:36.462)
whole process gets torn down while you're outside of the, you know, while you're at shelled out to that other activity or that other now permission screen. And then like the, you're like top most activity or your whole app process dies. It's just like trying to recover from that is a pain.

Allan Ritchie (40:46.189)
Yep.

Allan Ritchie (40:53.677)
Well, that's a thing. It would be nice if they're going to go this route. And even Apple does this. Like if you've used Apple Health stuff, if you worked with the Apple Health stuff. They're a bit funny. So what you do is you give off the permissions you want. You want to either just read or you want to do write to certain ones. You hand it off. The screen comes up and it says, this app wants to do A, B, C, and D. Right?

Jon (41:02.926)
Uh, not really, no, just the exposure notification stuff.

Allan Ritchie (41:18.893)
and then you either check yes, no, da, da, da. And then it comes back to your request right there. Like it's not like you have to now check on resume and do some hacky stuff. It comes back into the Apple API and it says, here was the dictionary of results, right? That's what I want Android to do, but they can't do anything like that ever. So time sensitive notifications is one where they've really like, what, how did we get here?

Jon (41:24.974)
Mm -hmm.

Jon (41:35.374)
Yeah, yeah, that would be nice.

Jon (41:43.662)
Yeah, you know what, what's funny talking about earlier about going to Google IOs. I, I remember being, they used to have like these little smaller talks like fireside chats. They would call them where they'd have like an, there's a couple of engineers talk really deep about a subject. And one of the times they talked about the activity life cycle and everything. And like, and they, they kind of admitted they're like, if we were going to do this again, we wouldn't have done it this way. Like the whole.

Allan Ritchie (42:10.029)
Yeah, no kidding.

Jon (42:10.766)
every activity is kind of like its own independent thing, right? Cause on the outset, the idea was really cool where the idea is like, Oh, I could like call out an activity, a specific activity in another app. And you know, they don't have to know about each other. And, and that the end of the day though, it's like, nobody's actually doing that for many good reasons nowadays, especially like security reasons. And, and so, yeah. And, but the whole.

Allan Ritchie (42:30.669)
It's brutal. But they bought their operating system to start, right? Like.

Jon (42:35.758)
They did, but like they were, it sounded like at that point they were like the way that they kept going down that path of design was like, yeah, no, this is a good idea. And then like years later, yeah, they just kind of said, use like the configuration change stuff. Like don't, don't just have your activity have to get rebuilt all the time. Like that's silly. We should never have done it this way. You know, that the fact that like activities are just totally isolated from each other was not a good decision in hindsight.

Allan Ritchie (43:02.957)
Well, vision's 20 20 when you're looking back on it, right? So, but if you relatively looking some of the stuff they're doing with new permissions, they can kiss my butt. I don't like them. Just stop. I, if honestly, I wish they would all unify. If you're going to do these off screens where you really Apple and or Google can really get involved and get in your face, right?

Jon (43:05.742)
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Jon (43:18.958)
I doubt they're going to, but.

Allan Ritchie (43:30.861)
do like a manifest where you have to say, this is the permission I want. This is why, right? Or localization key or whatever, just kind of like Apple does. You say, request all permissions, not this piecemeal crap we have to do right now. Just send the whole damn thing. And then it comes back with a dictionary and then I can react accordingly to that. Right? So it's just like a set it a permission setting screen.

We'll hand it all to you guys. You decide and come back. Don't keep changing the game on me. Just do it that way. Exactly.

Jon (43:59.214)
And they have the means to do that too, right? Like that could all, if they're already going out to some other activity or like, and then whenever they resume, just have the bundle have all that stuff in it, right? Have a special key in the bundle and that key has all the permission dictionary stuff in it inside that.

Allan Ritchie (44:11.629)
Right.

Allan Ritchie (44:17.773)
Exactly, it's already all there and just I can request it and then I can check the current state of it, right? Because that's the other thing user can still go into it still retract those permissions So but then you don't have to request them anymore. You can always check What's the state and then if the state is bad say hey mister user?

you've knocked this permission out, we can't help you here, right? But you're not having to do all this wild check and have I asked them before? It's not have I asked them before, it's just you've asked them before and now here's the state. But they don't do it.

Jon (44:48.11)
Yeah, and you could even have a permission, you know, kind of change notification listener thing, right? Like have it always accessible and you can always kind of query the current state and then maybe even have an option to wire up a listener just so that you know when that state of anything has changed.

Allan Ritchie (44:56.141)
Sure.

Allan Ritchie (45:04.525)
But then you have to be able to do that in the background. Apple doesn't like that. You can't win. You can't win. That's why you just need to have flags that are always current, right? And then you have to check them. It's just, it's, it's the nature of the game, but honestly, I wish they would figure this shit out and put it in one place. Stop making me piece me all this junk.

Jon (45:08.174)
Yeah, that's true. They don't know.

Allan Ritchie (45:28.877)
Especially since they keep changing the game like if you had any idea how many times the location stuff has changed in Android Even in the last three releases is like what are you doing? You're only angry me stop stop

Jon (45:42.318)
Yeah. Now that's something that I always kind of have lately been wishing for from Apple is I feel like they've never done much with their notifications, like the UX, not the API or anything, just the, as a user, I pick up my phone and notifications are just always a disaster on my iPhone and Android. I feel like maybe went too far in how you can like group and customize and do all these things. But I keep thinking that.

Apple could do something better here too.

Allan Ritchie (46:13.005)
I think you might be a victim of where you sit in that field, unfortunately. So when you're, you can do some very rich stuff with Apple notifications, but kind of in the Maui world, it doesn't exist, right? Because you have to do like a, like a widget kind of scenario, right? And you have to supply a native view. So you're probably not prone to see that very often with Maui stuff, but it is there.

Jon (46:32.174)
Yeah.

Jon (46:38.542)
I mean, but just even other apps, like, I don't know. I just feel like the, I ended up having like hundreds of notifications of different apps and Android was somehow a bit better at that, but maybe I'm just grumpy about.

Allan Ritchie (46:48.807)
You have to look at the live activity. So if you, well, you don't order from Starbucks because that's swill to you, right?

Jon (46:55.118)
It's okay, I mean it's there.

Allan Ritchie (46:57.319)
Okay, so do me a favor this weekend, because I know you do the same thing as me Saturday morning. You're taking your kids to all the sporting slash stuff, right? Because John and I will message each other on Saturday going, oh, again, right? Because we're watching our kids do these things that we've seen them do 5 million times. See, eventually you're just like, so I'll have my coffee and then I'll message Sean and he'll be like, I've had my.

Jon (47:00.622)
Okay.

Jon (47:05.23)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Jon (47:15.662)
Okay.

Allan Ritchie (47:22.375)
It's my atomically measured coffee of perfection. And I'll be like, I've got Starbucks. So on the weekend, when you're going to this, you know, your kids stuff, I want you to mobile order a Starbucks and see their notification. Cause that's, it's, it's rich. So they started with the live notification stuff.

Jon (47:39.086)
Okay, it's maybe been a little bit since I have, but...

Jon (47:45.998)
Mm -hmm.

Allan Ritchie (47:46.215)
very recently and it's great. It's fantastic because you can tell what like on the notification when they started, when they received your order, when they started making your order and when it's ready without the notification ever going away. So that stuff is there. It's a fair bit of work to get it though, right? That's the thing with these push notification things. It's not, it's work.

Jon (47:57.134)
Okay.

Jon (48:08.238)
Yeah, you have to really want like have a good scenario that it makes sense to spend the effort on, right? Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.

Allan Ritchie (48:13.8)
Uber has it too. So, you know that little island. What are they called the dynamic island? They have well does it it seems more like a toy but it's kind of interesting because You could just look at your home screen and you've got the little car driving across the dynamic island To tell how far your trip is left, which it's like a like a progress bar for your trip. So that's kind of interesting

Jon (48:28.11)
Yeah.

Jon (48:31.79)
Well, even the like, wait until they get there kind of thing part is maybe more interesting.

Allan Ritchie (48:35.431)
that as well. And it's just like this stupid little animation. I love what they do with a dynamic island. It's kind of cool.

Jon (48:41.55)
I wonder if Lyft does that now too.

Allan Ritchie (48:44.167)
Well, you got to figure they're copying each other, right?

Jon (48:46.158)
I'm sure. And I only ask because like, so going to Disney, Lyft has like the, that's like their partner one, right? Cause they got like the, the Disney themed vans that you can get. So we'll, we'll see.

Allan Ritchie (48:52.103)
Yep.

Allan Ritchie (48:56.871)
So check it out, because those notifications, in my opinion, are way richer than what you generally tend to see in Android. Now, out of the box, like for the least amount of work, doing just straight local notifications with Android is like, you can do pretty much anything right out of the box without even giving a custom view or activity over. You can just get all this stuff.

Jon (49:05.454)
Okay.

Allan Ritchie (49:23.431)
Apple, you have to do your custom view, your, you know, all that stuff and kind of feed it information. Live activity is a completely different thing. But again, with, with that kind of stuff, it's more based on push notifications. So you got to do more lift on the server than as much of the clients. So it's a, it's a lot of work to get those things. And I think that's what people don't realize. It's why you don't see it as much unless it's from the really, really big apps.

Jon (49:47.726)
Yeah.

Jon (49:51.758)
Well, yeah, because it's I mean, and it's platform specific work too, right? So like, that's always going to be the extra mile. And you know, that's that's something I see that in my my own app. It's like, I'm not do I want to spend the extra effort to do that? I don't know.

Allan Ritchie (50:05.733)
Well, right now, again, if you're looking at live activities, you do need Swift UI. So that's a bit of a gap that we've got right now. So that kind of sucks, but there's some options. If eventually we could dish out even Objective -C or any sort of rendered UI to it, you could still do some cross -platform stuff there, I think. I think.

Jon (50:11.15)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Jon (50:17.966)
It does, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you can...

Jon (50:29.422)
Yeah, yeah, that always becomes difficult. And it's kind of the same with like, carplay and those kinds of things too, right? Those are all pretty, pretty specific to the platform.

Allan Ritchie (50:36.837)
Well, CarPlay is very custom, right? CarPlay is like you get a collection view and you get like a map and that's it. That's what you get. And maybe a keyboard.

Jon (50:40.558)
Yeah.

Jon (50:47.022)
Oh, I wonder if we'll see any new, I mean, maybe not new hardware for like Apple TV stuff, but do you have Apple TVs? Do you use those in your own? Yeah, you do, don't you? All right. I wonder if they'll do anything interesting with the OS updates there.

Allan Ritchie (50:55.173)
Yeah, I do. I've got them. Apple TV's amazing.

They haven't really done anything with that at all, right? I think...

Jon (51:05.806)
Not a lot. There's been little quality improvements here and there, like adding home kit stuff to there. Like I like how like our doorbell rings and now like the video pops up on the TV of the doorbell. Like it's... What?

Allan Ritchie (51:11.011)
Yeah, the home kit.

Allan Ritchie (51:16.933)
You did not tell me this. Oh, that sounds cool. I've got it all wired into my cameras, right? But I do not have the doorbell thing. I did not know it did that.

Jon (51:21.71)
Oh yeah.

Jon (51:28.366)
Well, you got to, it's, it's what you have to have the video, you know, working with HomeKit, but you've, you've got all this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So it'll do it. It'll do it. Yep. So they do stuff like that or like, you know, have the air pod like pop up like, Hey, your AirPods are here. Do you want to connect? I started using that a little bit where I can listen to TV without. Yeah. So.

Allan Ritchie (51:33.7)
Well that I do. Yeah, you made me wire that all up. Okay. Oh.

Allan Ritchie (51:45.571)
That's handy. Yeah, kids bothering you or waking them up because you're listening to something loud. That's handy. That is handy. But other than that, they haven't really done, it's been nothing. I haven't seen anything cool with Apple TV in years.

Jon (52:01.102)
Yeah, so maybe we're due for something there too. I don't know. And then...

Allan Ritchie (52:04.354)
It.

It'd be nice if they made it like, if they could really like not these stupid games, like make some real AAA games on them. I also keep hoping if that's another thing, uh, I love my M2, I swear by it. So it just, I want to do everything on it, but running AAA games on an arm 64 Mac is just not a thing. And I really, really want, I don't want to have a separate Mac. Now Microsoft has said that this is the year they think they can challenge Mac.

Jon (52:24.302)
Hmm, not quite.

Jon (52:35.406)
Uh, yeah.

Allan Ritchie (52:35.778)
with Windows on ARM64. I don't know.

Jon (52:38.766)
I'll be happy if it's like reasonably in the ballpark. So I have one of the developer arm 64 boxes. Like you could buy like one of them. Maybe you still can. Like I bought just for my own build server stuff. And it's, it's pretty good from it for not like not on the, as a death. I did for a bit just to, while we were kind of like,

Allan Ritchie (52:57.473)
But you don't ever use that thing though. You haven't been.

Jon (53:07.662)
This was like last year. So I mean, I bought one for my own use and then I kind of, you know, was able to use it to test out how like Maui workloads and stuff were working on there too. So I did use it like as a PC for a little while and I was, I was pleasantly surprised with the power, especially given that it was like not an expensive machine. Like it was like a cheap Mac mini basically. So like if, if they can do something that they can charge, you know, a little less than Apple, but get

Allan Ritchie (53:30.721)
Okay.

Jon (53:36.814)
closer to what MacBooks cost and if they can get close to competing with them that might be compelling.

Allan Ritchie (53:42.881)
But you have to get DirectX in ARM64 to get all the games and stuff.

Jon (53:46.222)
Yeah, but they've, they've been working on a ton of that stuff, right? Like I think, yeah, games might be the hard part still.

Allan Ritchie (53:49.409)
I hope so. I want the all in one. That's what I want. It's easy. If Windows can do it, I will convert back. But right now...

Jon (53:55.022)
Yeah.

Jon (53:58.478)
I feel like if they can make a compelling piece of hardware, like because it's Windows and if they can make DirectX and stuff work and if it's a matter of rebuilding games for ARM, they'll have more success at getting developers, like studios to do that than Apple is having getting them to port over onto Mac, right?

Allan Ritchie (54:20.193)
Well, and that's the thing we've been seeing at WWDC. So this is the other kind of cool, I mean, it's way out of my realm of experience or expertise is they've been trying to write it. So metal is like the thing to build games on and they've got all these porting kits and they announced it what like two years ago and they've been improving on it, but I have not seen any real, I mean, maybe it's just not triple games. I AAA games I care about, but I have not seen anything like, wow.

Jon (54:37.998)
Yeah, it's been a while.

Jon (54:49.486)
I think there's just, there's not enough of a market of people that, you know, want to buy their games there. Maybe like I'd have to imagine that studios are kind of doing the analysis, right? And like, are people really going to buy the games there? Maybe it's not worth it.

Allan Ritchie (55:01.344)
And is the M really powerful enough to do games as Apple says? Like it's amazing. Like this thing just tears through everything I give it minus games obviously. Like I can have like parallels going, it boots up faster than my Windows computer that's got 128 gigs sitting beside me. It boots up faster, like instantaneously, it's crazy. And battery wise, it destroys everything I've ever had.

So I would love to continue buying this. So what every time they say there's an M new M, you know, are you going to get the M for John? You had an M two though. Sorry. You had an M and then you got the M three.

Jon (55:32.686)
Yeah, there's an M4 coming, I think, right? So.

No, no, my, the, what I have, I had an, no, no, what do I have? I had a, I had one of the first laptops. What did I have? I bought an, I upgraded my laptop when a newer one came out. I have an M1 Pro. Okay. That's my laptop. And then I have a, an M2 something Mac mini.

Allan Ritchie (55:46.815)
M's. Yeah, so M Pro.

Allan Ritchie (55:56.159)
Yeah, I got the M2 and you were like, that's right, you ended up getting from Micros, but didn't you get it? You were going to get an M3 Pro. You didn't. They're just gathering dust. You only use your Windows machine now anyways.

Jon (56:03.374)
Yeah. Yeah, I didn't. I've been on the Mac a lot lately on the Mac Mini, but then like for my portable device, like the M1 Pro still just really screams for stuff that I use it for. So like why there's no need. Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (56:16.063)
Okay.

Allan Ritchie (56:21.215)
Yeah, it's just it's a destroyer. But I do wonder how good the graphics really can be on it. I want to believe.

Jon (56:29.422)
Yeah, no, the M1 Pro, no. So like I tried emulating some games that I own, of course, and I actually do own them. The Switch, yeah. So I tried bringing that along to Belize. Like I had the only device I brought to Belize was my phone and my laptop, because I just couldn't quite be comfortable not having a laptop with me. And to do something on the plane. So I brought that along, but I put some like emulators on it.

Allan Ritchie (56:38.495)
All right.

Jon (56:59.214)
for Switch just thinking like, oh, like this will be fun to do maybe. And it couldn't really do that. I mean, granted it was like, you know, some of the higher, the more demanding games I was throwing at it, but so maybe like, I don't know, maybe like Mario Party would have been fine. I don't know.

Allan Ritchie (57:06.719)
Really? Hmm.

Allan Ritchie (57:17.438)
Yeah, because Switch isn't an incredibly doom system to rendering, right? At least it...

Jon (57:21.166)
No.

It's not, but like the whole, the way they do their shaders and stuff, like you got to pre -compile shaders or like the way that emulators usually do it is just in time. Right. And so it's not, it's not super conducive to like emulating quickly.

Allan Ritchie (57:39.902)
I just want to see a big game like a Diablo four or Chuck something good at it and let me see it. But they just.

Jon (57:46.094)
Well, people had had used like the porting toolkit to run like cyberpunk and stuff, right? Like there was, and I granted it's not like a officially done thing, so it's not quite the same, but maybe, maybe it'll get there with maybe with the M four.

Allan Ritchie (57:56.575)
pretty is it though.

Well, I guess that's something I'm looking forward to hearing out of some of these guys this year. Their other thing last year, and you had the 15, but have you seen the big AAA games make it to the phone? Because that what they were talking about it.

Jon (58:12.174)
No, I mean I haven't been looking that I mean I've seen like there's like I don't know there was like a Call of Duty and was there a Assassin's Creed or something right? Yeah, like they're all like Different versions of it with just like they're they're selling the brand right? It's not like a true version of the game. So

Allan Ritchie (58:21.054)
to pretend one though, it's a mobile version, right?

Allan Ritchie (58:28.958)
Yeah, they keep saying that that stuff is coming. I keep waiting. I just want one laptop. I want one computer. And I want one phone slash tablet. That's what I want. Sell me.

Jon (58:34.798)
The

Jon (58:39.758)
The problem, like the phone's always gonna be slower than the current computer, right? And like, you're not gonna disrupt the industry of people who do games like on a serious gaming PC. Like you're just, you're not gonna run those on a computer. Like, so yeah, maybe you can throw a game on a phone, you know, after that game's five years old and maybe you can get to that point where that works okay, but I don't know.

Allan Ritchie (58:44.926)
Right.

Allan Ritchie (59:02.653)
Guess we'll keep saying, keep waiting, keep hoping.

Jon (59:05.998)
Cloud streaming, that's how you're gonna get your AAA games. I know.

Allan Ritchie (59:08.19)
Yeah, it's too slow. It's too slow. So, so how do we do a package of the week this week? I didn't really I didn't really think what would fit with this, but I mean, why don't we do a shout out to some of Gerald stuff? He's been doing a.

Jon (59:14.734)
Yeah, no, I hear you.

Jon (59:20.526)
Yeah.

Jon (59:24.622)
Yeah, I feel like maybe he might even have some that are kind of in the space of maybe not newer APIs, but like in the spirit of the screenshots.

Allan Ritchie (59:32.125)
This is a screenshot. There's a screenshot API. There is, he did an audio one. A lot of quick and easy plugins, but they're pretty cool. The screenshot plugin was a great idea. I didn't even know that was a thing. So that's awesome. I mean, I did know it was a thing. They have it for like sentry and stuff can capture like screens and stuff, but he added an API for that. So that's nice.

Jon (59:37.486)
Yeah, the audio one's cool.

Jon (59:49.422)
Yeah, there's tons.

Allan Ritchie (59:59.069)
He's got a bunch of other ones. He's got a screen brightness one. Not sure what I would use that for, but you know.

Jon (01:00:04.398)
Well, like if you have a barcode that you're displaying that needs to be scanned, right? Like a boarding pass kind of deal, right? Yeah.

Allan Ritchie (01:00:11.038)
There you go. Well, if it's a boarding pass, then you want to be in the pass kit, right? You don't have to be.

Jon (01:00:14.894)
You want you do, but like ultimately all those also show the code in the app too, but.

Allan Ritchie (01:00:21.021)
Fair enough, fair enough. So go check out Gerald's packages. He's got tons of them. Can you say his last name? You can say his last name to the full effect, right? There we go. Fair enough. So Gerald, we love your stuff and you and obviously he's part of community toolkit. So that's what I thought for this week.

Jon (01:00:24.558)
Yeah. Yeah, there's there's lots of good ones.

No, I'm not gonna even try. I'm not Dutch enough.

Jon (01:00:37.55)
I think that's a good pick. Yeah.

Jon (01:00:43.406)
Yeah, I like it. And that, I mean, it's a good point too. I like there's a lot of, a lot of them out there that fill in those little gaps here and there. And, and that's a talking about like new APIs and stuff. That's kind of the way that probably, you know, you're going to get access to like those new things from a cross platform perspective, cause it's not going to land in Maui immediately, right? Unless it's like some new thing that, you know, the world needs immediately. Um, so yeah, maybe, maybe we'll see new features and maybe they will end up in a plugin by Gerald.

Allan Ritchie (01:01:13.276)
Yeah, possible. Or me. I do a lot of them too. So we'll see. Race is on. Challenge accepted.

Jon (01:01:17.006)
That's true. Yeah. All right. So we we've got WWDC in June. I think we've got, I checked Google IO, uh, in, in May middle or end of May. Um, maybe we'll have to do a recap and see if we had any dreams come true after those.

Allan Ritchie (01:01:35.164)
Hmm. That's a good point. Because then if the dual well, you know darn well if the, if the flip phone comes out, I'm going to be talking about it and then I'll be opening it on the live stream going, right.

Jon (01:01:42.766)
Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah. That would be, I think if that comes out, that would even warrant an emergency episode, I think.

Allan Ritchie (01:01:52.763)
And as I said, when we started this episode, John wasn't convinced he'd be getting one. If you saw his face now, it is quite clear. It's already grown 50 % in the course of 45 minutes. So it'll be of 100 % by tomorrow.

Jon (01:01:59.182)
I'm 50%.

Jon (01:02:06.894)
reasonable chance.

Jon (01:02:11.022)
All right, I think that'll do it for this week for today. You know, if you're excited about Google IO and WWDC and you want to see a foldable phone, the best way that you can make that happen is to go leave us a nice juicy review on Apple podcasts. I'm not sure how that translates and why that.

Allan Ritchie (01:02:30.651)
Yes. That's terrible, but terrible, terrible dad joke, but you know, that's whatever.

Jon (01:02:36.622)
I... you never know.

Allan Ritchie (01:02:38.234)
We will go make a lot of noise if you leave a subscription or feedback about it. I will make a lot of noise with Apple.

Jon (01:02:42.222)
Yeah, yeah, just go put that in your review and we'll point that to Tim. I have Tim's email address, Tim Cook's email address. I mean, everybody does, but I have it too. And we'll say, hey, look at the proofs there. You gotta come out with the foldable phone. The people, the tens of people have spoken. All right, and you can find all the infos for us if you wanna drop us a line, comment, feedback.

Allan Ritchie (01:03:00.954)
people have spoken.

Jon (01:03:10.926)
If you want to berate us for our poor humor, you know, any of the above gonemobile .io. Uh, I think that about does it. Have a nice weekend dreaming of your foldable phone.

Allan Ritchie (01:03:23.386)
I will, I will. Order from Starbucks tomorrow.

Jon (01:03:25.806)
All right. I'll, oh yeah. Right. Got to do that. I'll remind me. I'll ask Siri to remind me. All right, everyone. Thanks all. See you next time.

Allan Ritchie (01:03:32.089)
There you go.

Thanks everybody.