Reinventing Finance with Customer Experience, with Henri van den Bulk === [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Coté: Well, Introductions --- [00:00:00] Coté: why don't you introduce yourself? [00:00:02] Henri van den Bulk: Sure. Coté. Thanks. Pleasure talking to you again. My name is Henri van den Bulk I'm one of the executive technical advisors in the Tanzu Value Advisory team. I'm a come from industry financial service industry backgrounds before joining pivotal. And then now part [00:00:15] of the VMware [00:00:16] Coté: So I thought, [00:00:17] uh, you know, I have, [00:00:18] I have this little on and off series where I talk with, [00:00:20] uh, [00:00:21] people like yourselves, some of your coworkers on the team about like [00:00:25] in the, [00:00:25] in the industries that, that you come from and you work on, [00:00:28] like, [00:00:28] what are, [00:00:29] uh, [00:00:29] I have, I don't have an artful way of putting it, but. [00:00:32] In, [00:00:33] in various organizations and industries like finance like yourself. [00:00:36] When I talk with JT Perry and in healthcare, like [00:00:40] if you, [00:00:40] if you [00:00:40] sort of [00:00:41] realize that dream of [00:00:42] like, [00:00:42] we're going to act, we're going to be able to use software, like a tech company, we're going to deliver on that old idea of software, eating the world. So how do we use software to eat our industries? The analogy gets [00:00:53] kind of [00:00:53] vicious after a while, [00:00:54] but you know, [00:00:55] if we get to be good at our own sauce, [00:00:58] Uh, [00:00:58] like how can we [00:01:00] improve our business, whether internal and external facing. [00:01:02] Henri van den Bulk: And, [00:01:02] Coté: uh, I think, [00:01:03] Henri van den Bulk: I think you're pretty good for the, [00:01:04] Coté: uh, [00:01:04] Henri van den Bulk: for the finance area, just to [00:01:06] Coté: kind of [00:01:06] Henri van den Bulk: go over it Finance Tamed the Robot Dogs of Disruption to Focus on Customer Experience --- [00:01:07] Henri van den Bulk: now. So before, but, [00:01:09] Coté: you know, [00:01:09] Henri van den Bulk: just to set some context, I'm always interested in the, [00:01:12] Coté: uh, [00:01:13] Henri van den Bulk: the, [00:01:13] Coté: uh, I [00:01:14] Henri van den Bulk: I'm purposely being jokey about this, the headwinds and the tailwinds, [00:01:17] Coté: like, [00:01:18] Henri van den Bulk: like in the world of like finance, like [00:01:20] Coté: what, [00:01:21] Henri van den Bulk: what sort of [00:01:22] Coté: like. [00:01:22] Henri van den Bulk: What are the priorities and the things people struggle with, like what's going on now. [00:01:26] Coté: And, [00:01:26] Henri van den Bulk: and [00:01:27] Coté: as, [00:01:27] Henri van den Bulk: as context, like back when I started. [00:01:30] Coté: Way back in 2015, [00:01:32] like, uh, [00:01:32] back when we were at pivotal, [00:01:34] like, you know, [00:01:35] the, [00:01:35] uh, [00:01:36] the problem was that like all of these little startups are going to come in and [00:01:40] steal, [00:01:40] steal, [00:01:41] uh, [00:01:41] deposits and customers away from the traditional banks, [00:01:44] you know, [00:01:45] things like that. [00:01:46] Uh, so, you know, that was, [00:01:47] that was a, [00:01:48] uh, [00:01:48] seemed to be a tailwind. I don't know. I don't hear so much about that anymore, but like in general, [00:01:53] like [00:01:53] what's going on in the world of finance that. That organizations are worried about. That is [00:01:59] kind of [00:01:59] in the [00:02:00] area where we're software and technology might help them. [00:02:04] Henri van den Bulk: Yeah. [00:02:04] Coté: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:06] Henri van den Bulk: I think [00:02:06] that that's, [00:02:07] that's a good way of framing it. Coté you what's really happening in the financial industry. There's definitely a couple of headwinds and some tail winds, but [00:02:14] let's, [00:02:14] let's maybe talk about [00:02:15] the, [00:02:15] the tailwind pieces. [00:02:17] Um, [00:02:19] I think there's still a big pressure of what's going to general described as a FinTech and which is a little, it's not a buzz word, I think, but [00:02:27] it, [00:02:27] it's not just a startups. [00:02:29] It's actually the larger tech companies like apples, Googles, Facebooks of the world, really becoming players in the financial services, [00:02:38] uh, [00:02:38] industry. [00:02:39] Uh, [00:02:39] but it's in multiple different ways, just them providing capabilities, but also partnerships that are happening in the financial service industry between them and what they're realizing at the end of the day. [00:02:51] It's about driving customer experiences Cause, [00:02:56] uh, [00:02:56] what the financial industry is really [00:02:57] interested, [00:02:58] interested in [00:03:00] is maintaining [00:03:01] their, [00:03:01] their customer base and ideally growing their customer base. [00:03:05] Um, [00:03:05] and we've seen some challenges with, [00:03:07] uh, [00:03:08] obviously the newcomers that have come up, come along, [00:03:10] that [00:03:10] that takes some of the market share that they have, [00:03:13] um, Um, [00:03:16] so what they're trying to figure out is like, how can some of the technology really help us accelerate these capabilities? [00:03:22] Um, but the tailwinds to kind of tie this back to what's happening. I, what happened in the pandemic? It's customers need to have new experiences by which they can perform their financial transactions right now. I want to categorize these in maybe two different segments, right? Um, there's kinda like your majority of transactions that you do with your financial institutions, right? [00:03:46] You deposit a check, you're making some bank transfer, you're using a credit card. All those are getting really commodity commodities. So the digital experiences in that world, um, that while the FinTech companies or technology companies [00:04:00] have been able to drive is creating great customer experiences. Like, like, for example, open up your bank accounts or on that. [00:04:07] So that's one category of transactions that are being commoditized. You don't, you're not going into your branch anymore for doing those things. Right. And during the pandemic, in fact, you couldn't go into the bank anymore for doing these things. Right. Trust - a major strategic asset --- [00:04:21] Henri van den Bulk: But then there's a larger and another category of activities as well, but it's truly based on trust. [00:04:27] Right. And there's innovation that's happening there as well. Through things like data aggregation, um, making data available, um, from multiple financial institutions. So did you use a customer can manage your, uh, your financial health more and more? Um, let me get an example. Um, now you might have multiple checking accounts. [00:04:49] You might have a credit cards, um, et cetera. Customers really want to be able to build a trust. To maintain their financial health with somebody, somebody, right. [00:05:00] And for those cases, you might still go into a branch talking to a person or on the, on the phone. And so there's innovation that's being done there to, to simplify that one. [00:05:10] Um, In Europe, uh, APJ and, uh, a couple of other places around the world. Um, it's become too regulation with open banking, for example, right. That you can start aggregating those things. And people started to trust the, those capabilities. Uh, the US is not quite there yet because it's primarily done through commercial reasons, not federal federally regulated. [00:05:31] Um, so that sounded like the second bucket. So I think there's two. Um, Tailwinds that are happening there, copay is one is again, the FinTech company is really creating a new narrative of great digital experiences, right. Uh, to simplify those commoditized transact transactions. And the other side is creating this trust relationship that is significantly deeper, deeper in a financial industry. [00:05:55] So those are the kinds of the two major, major buckets that I see. Banking doesn't change much, but the UI does --- [00:05:58] Coté: Yeah. You know, the, the [00:06:00] first, you know, going over each of those, the first is interesting in that. It's almost like, you know, I, I jokingly think of these, like, you know, these, uh, what's the word we use to use disruptors. Like these startups that are, that are, you know, careening in is like robot dogs, right? [00:06:14] Like, there's that picture of Jeff Bezos with like a robot dog at some point. And like, you know, I hadn't thought about it as concisely as you were saying it, but it's almost like all those robot dogs became partners and friends. Right? Like there's sort of not really threats. Like they used to be. I mean, you know, Any business partner is potentially a threat. [00:06:34] If something goes the wrong way or, you know, the lines aren't clear or whatever, but in general, like it seems like banks everywhere have done very well. Like as far as far as like, partnering and innovating with like doing new things, right? Like they're not, they don't necessarily, they haven't necessarily, at least I only really know retail banking, like banking for individuals like you and me, but [00:07:00] it seems like. [00:07:02] There wasn't really a revolution in like how banking is done. Like, I remember, I remember signing up when I moved over to the Netherlands here, like three years ago, I signed up for one of the new, like new banks and like, yeah. And I, and you know, I remember thinking like, oh, it's a bank. Like, like, I, you know, whereas I like, you know, especially as, you know, tech people, you get a new device and you want to go see like all the new things that it can do. [00:07:28] Like when the new iOS release comes out, like what are the new features and the things that I could do. And I realized that like, oh, it's, I mean, it makes sense. Cause in banking, like you kind of don't want new features. [00:07:40] Henri van den Bulk: Like there's, there's a stability thing and trust, [00:07:44] Coté: there are several thousands of years of, of, of, you know, figuring out this is what banking should do, and this is what banking should not do That's all right. [00:07:54] Henri van den Bulk: There's a little [00:07:54] bit of perception that was created as well. Right? Like some of those started banks as well that oh, [00:08:00] whizzbang user interfaces, great digital experience. But to your point, yeah. It's still a bank at the end and the end of the day. Right. Um, in some cases the bank actually failed, uh, because they create these beautiful user experiences and then it took, it still took two days to clear a check or do a a transfer. [00:08:18] It's like, wait, that's not a new experience. [00:08:21] Coté: And, and, Reducing costs and growing the business with IT strategy --- [00:08:21] Coté: I think it's it's, as you were saying, the second part, like it's a good, and that's a good example. You just went over it. Like the focus becomes good customer experience. Like that's a means to the other business need you had, which is, uh, retention and, uh, and, and growth, right? [00:08:39] Like retaining the customers and getting new customers, but then also growing, you would say deposits, right? I mean, is that, w w what's the word you use to focus on? In software, we would, you know, like what's the account value that you have [00:08:54] Henri van den Bulk: either net new assets or assets on a minimum management. Those are kind of like the key, key focus [00:08:59] Coté: areas.[00:09:00] [00:09:00] So you're always trying to, you say products in the financial world. You're always trying to get people to consume more products that you have. Right. And then, and then increase the pie [00:09:08] Henri van den Bulk: that they have. Yeah. It's kind of like your wallet, the wallet share that you get for and, and [00:09:13] Coté: like you were saying, you do that through a better customer experience nowadays, which. [00:09:19] I think the example was great. Like, you can have a great mobile app, but then if it takes two days to have a deposit who cares. Right. That's [00:09:26] Henri van den Bulk: it. That's all right. Yeah. And it's kind of, what's more what's happening in the industry. Like I, I think of it, there's a couple of phases that they went through right back in the day. [00:09:34] It was really about, um, getting as much savings, um, into the bank because in the bank from a business perspective could then loan those things out. Right. And so then all of a sudden the interest rates. Going down. So the return on those deposits were not significant, uh, for the, for the banks. Right? So they now had to change, uh, the cost structure. And so one of the things that happened is they started using ecosystem [00:10:00] players that provided the core banking capabilities that are out there right there. The FIS FiServe ... and all that, uh, banks were starting to use those because that's a cost optimization originally, originally. Um, but then like what I said, the FinTech companies came in and I go, oh, great. Examples of New Banking Features --- [00:10:15] Henri van den Bulk: We can now create a lot of, um, experiences for your customers, but ultimately it's, it's about maintaining your number of your customers. And then creating an ecosystem around that. So does your customers feel like one? I it's simple to do my financial transactions, right? So the first bucket of all my transactions, my day-to-day stuff, I don't want to really think about that. [00:10:39] That should be easy, right? Like bill paying, um, credit card transactions, et cetera. And now, but now you also want the building, the trust element of it as well. So did just stay with the customer. You don't want to create churn in your customers, um, in that particular aspect of it. Um, so a lot of one is interesting because, um, some [00:11:00] of the digital experiences are playing as well. [00:11:01] Like, what I mentioned is the aggregation, right? I love financial data so that you now know what's in my savings account, how my credit cards, uh, doing. Um, if I now want to create a, a, a non-secure loan, um, make that easy, right? I don't have to think about taking weeks for, for doing that, that aspect of it. [00:11:21] So that's another experience as well. And somebody that's also coming in more and more newer is creating stickiness is this notion of, you know, buy now pay, pay later. Um, you know, uh, we can already have some of those concepts, but now pushing this all the way to your point of sale, right? So if you go to like in the Netherlands to Albert Heijn for, uh, or, uh, to pick any of your favorite grocery store or wherever else, and you really don't want to pay now being able to do a financial transaction where you say, you know what, I want to pay over four time periods, for example, right. [00:11:56] When you're making the purchase. Now think about that for a minute. [00:12:00] Um, that seems like a very trivial experience to create. Right. Um, however, it's creates also a deeper relationship between you and the financial institution, right? Because now you're creating this payment program per se, that is non-secure. [00:12:18] Um, but you stay with the bank because they provide this capability, right. So more and more of these experiences that you want creates this deeper relationship with your, with your financial system. [00:12:29] Coté: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's like, uh, uh, not complicated, but very featureful layaway program. I mean, lay ways, the opposite of that, where you, you don't get to buy it until you have the money. [00:12:41] They just, they just reserve it for you. But. Yeah, [00:12:45] Henri van den Bulk: then I just want to make it simpler. Right? It's like, you can be, you love the shiny thing that you just want to buy. Um, and at the same time you can pay over for four periods or something like that or whatever you're choosing it, but you can do it right at the point of point of sale. [00:12:58] Um, [00:12:59] Coté: so [00:13:00] do people actually do that? Like, is that, is that being done? [00:13:04] Henri van den Bulk: Yeah, there's over the last, uh, years about a 40% uptake in providing those capabilities in different forms, at least in the U S in the U s [00:13:11] Coté: I guess not so much business-wise, but for me, like, I would charge a cheaper interest rate than like, you know, the 18, 20% on a credit card. [00:13:22] Right. Cause like, So somehow the arrangement is that like, you know, I can pay it over weekly or four months. And I mean, I assume I have to pay for that somehow. Uh, but like, you know, there's, there's maybe hopefully just a single percentage or something, or just a flat fee that I pay to do that rather than, uh, you know, a steep, steep interest for borrowing that money. [00:13:46] Henri van den Bulk: Well, that's what they're realizing it right. Is that, um, we all use credit cards. Right. But the credit card fees are significant, significant, right? So the creating programs to either have a lower percentage points, or even [00:14:00] in some cases, no percentage points. Um, and again, it's just to maintain your relationship with the bank, right? [00:14:07] You don't go to a third party or a FinTech company to, uh, that creates a product for, you know, buy now, pay, pay. Right. It's just maintaining that relationship and that it's it's at the end of the day, um, you know, financial stuff, you want to be able to manage everything in your complete life per se, right. [00:14:26] They already have enough information to, to understand what your habits are. Uh, but maintaining you as a customer is significant because then, then you get some, a lot of products you can do, you know, brokerage capabilities, et cetera. Finding growth in a saturated market - create new products for existing customers --- [00:14:38] Coté: Yeah. I mean, it's similar to what, what I, I kind of, I don't know if intuitive is the right word, but. [00:14:44] I feel like what happens in the telco market. And I mean, there's there's, which is basically, I don't, I don't know the technical terms for this, but like in the telco world, I think that market is pretty saturated. It's just like all, all [00:15:00] the customers have kind of maxed out on what it is they're going to buy. [00:15:03] Right? Like some of them maybe could buy, you know, more cable channels or faster internet or unlimited cell phone, but it's sort of like, there must be an equilibrium, right? There's the maximum amount of money being spent, you know, plus, or minus whatever percent. And so like, so like kind of like you're talking about what you have to do in that market is come up with new things to sell to your existing customer base, and then also like retain the ones that you have. [00:15:28] Right. And, and like, I, you know, I would assume banking is kind of similar kind of like I was joking that there's thousands of years of figuring out what banking is. It's kind of. Yeah, everyone has everyone who's going to has a bank account. And there's, you know, there's the, the under-banked population that you can get to like finding new customers and things like that, but you're sort of like, yeah. [00:15:49] So you need to get your existing customers to do more with you. [00:15:53] Henri van den Bulk: Yeah. Cause at the end of it's, it's a, the more assets you have on our management as a financial institution, right. The [00:16:00] more, you can leverage that, um, for, for example, your corporate side of the house or corporate bank. side House. [00:16:06] Right. And so, um, ultimately you're trying to kind of maintain that stipulation. It's kind of the same principle. Was it like if you have Amazon, uh, everybody signs up for Amazon. Right or, or Costco, uh, majority of the revenue is driven by membership. Not all the stuff that they sell. Um, it's just maintaining that, that ecosystem because, um, that's a continuous revenue stream that you're, you're getting and you maintaining your assets on their, on their management as well. [00:16:34] Uh, which you can leverage at that point. Um, so that's the ultimate ultimate game. It's not about fees anymore. Um, fees are dwindling down anyways. Clearing the way for better customer experience through software --- [00:16:41] Coté: So we have some teams who are writing software, right. And, and ho hopefully, hopefully, or like connected well to the business side, you know, like, like they're kind of working. [00:16:52] This is our ideal case. They're working with, uh, whatever the business owners are, the equivalent of a product manager [00:17:00] is, and, and, and. Like, like, let's say your, just a, uh, you're like regular bank incorporated, right? Like you're like, uh huh. Mid-sized bank. Right? So you're not necessarily a regional one because regional banking seems to be, um, constraint constrained by just, they don't have a lot of money to spend on customization. [00:17:23] So they go, they go to the. They just buy off the shelf banking systems [00:17:28] Henri van den Bulk: and white label solution or something along those lines, [00:17:32] Coté: the area. But like, you're, you're, you're a big enough bank at regular bank to like employ hundreds, if not thousands of developers to do some stuff. And you're like, you're like, all right, we're at the start of our journey. [00:17:45] Like, like, what are they, what are they going to be doing? Like, they have an inkling, the customer experience is good, but like, what are they, what do they start doing today? Wade into what you and I were just talking about. [00:17:56] Henri van den Bulk: Yeah. I think it's important. So you kinda mentioned, uh, tailwinds [00:18:00] and headwinds, right? [00:18:00] So let's first kind of recognize some of the headwinds that are happening in the industry as well, because that's important for, for those banks to really be able to do that. Um, A headwind is clearly, um, a lot of them still have core banking heritage as well. So they're still spending, so let's assume it's an existing bank versus say net new bank. [00:18:21] Um, so they're still having a lot of resources that are focused on that aspect. Um, so first you have to recognize that that is a commoditized solution these days, right? You, you buy this from another company, even a mid-sized bank. Now a large bank would still maintain their own because of, uh, many different reasons, their complexities, but. [00:18:41] Um, it says recognized that there's a come on, come on. We move on. Right. So, and this is important because now your resources can focus more on creating customer journey, customer journeys. Like how would you want the interactions to be with your customers? Right. Yeah. Um, what creates stickiness, [00:19:00] um, to you as, as a social issue? [00:19:02] Um, and we see some interesting examples for some banks that, you know, midsize that have aspirations to be bigger, but then also hits that. The second thing that they have to recognize is this lack of focus as well. Typically banking, uh, business has been around. Okay. Purely thinking about revenue or purely thinking about cost aspect of it, but not having to think about this thing called. [00:19:23] Um, which is very strange. It seems like intuitive to you and I Coté. I have like many customers that we talk to, right? Like, Hey customer should be at the center most bankrupt for th they're not right. They're, they're thinking about either the commercials commercial side, because it's more money flowing in versus actually the retail customers or creating a brand as well. [00:19:42] And that's, that's new for them as well. Um, so, so first they have to. Establish this notion in those product teams kind of have this product thinking that's that you and I have talked about before as well. And they're like, you know, we from Pivotal typically thought about starting a product thinking mindset first [00:20:00] inside of a bank, like, what are your products? [00:20:02] What are your customers? Um, and then creating a holistic view of your customers, right? Right. Um, if you don't have a holistic view of your customers, then you can't even start in these banks. So that's first and foremost, you want to want to create, and then creating this notion of a pro products factory. [00:20:18] Per se we have product teams focusing on those customer journeys, understanding the customers and creating experience and testing out already experiencing it, really improving. And that deposits, um, are you getting net new customer, is your customer acquisition going down for, for those things? Um, that becomes really important for them to do, um, this on the software development piece. [00:20:41] It's kind of like the easiest. Um, that the harder part is really focusing on the customer and driving pro product strategy that, for that, um, and creating alignment in the organization to make sure like, okay, what is it that we're focused on? We're not trying to create thousands of products for the customer. [00:20:57] Right. Just focus on what your customers are needing at that point. [00:21:00] [00:21:00] Coté: Yeah. That's interesting, you know, to, to, to summarize, to summarize it, right. Like. Before you even worry about those software development teams, right? Like, like there is a, uh, uh, there is a, uh, a foundation that you have to set like you, you, and a lot of it to your point is like not normal for regular bank. [00:21:24] Right. And, and it kinda, you know, I, it starts with. You know, when you were saying like, you know, getting to the commoditized things, it's almost like, like 10 years ago, the transition to SaaS that I used to think about, which is like, if you have a cloud strategy, figure out, look at your portfolio and figure out what you can just move to SaaS, like, like email, maybe your ERP system, whatever it is. [00:21:49] Like, just do that first and like do that for 12 months. Right. And cause, cause like, I mean exactly the point that you said, like there, it's not only money that you'll free up, but. [00:22:00] It's sort of like attention and priority and resources and like all this stuff. And then you can like shift all of your corporate attention from dealing with the email server, going down and worrying about this and, you know, but, and, and then for like kind of core systems and things like that, it's worth thinking like, do we need to run this core system? [00:22:19] Right. Like, it's a good thing to shift from it. [00:22:22] Henri van den Bulk: Well, to your example, right? Like, uh, uh, new, uh, new banks that are now internet first banks. Um, they don't buy a banking system. They just use bank bank in a box or bank, uh, through API per se. Right. Yeah. And so you kind of have to do this rationalization of what is core versus context. [00:22:44] You know, company and your portfolio, um, or banking is not something that, I mean, everybody's just expects you to have it. So, you know, outsource this or just purchase, purchase one from a ecosystem provider and then pivot your teams to really, to [00:23:00] help traffic. No, our focus is really, uh, or an outcome that you want this net new customers or higher deposits, um, you know, tenure, tenure of your customers, whatever the metrics are. [00:23:10] Did you want to. [00:23:12] Coté: Yeah. And then the end of that, the end of that journey one day, maybe we should just have a whole conversation about like legacy problems in finance. I've been thinking that the new little booklet I write the next one should be all about like dealing with legacy stuff, but more of like a strategy executive layer then like, Use the strangler pattern anyways. Rediscovering the customer - being product-centric --- [00:23:35] Coté: But, uh, but I, you know, the, the way, the way you put the end, it's like rediscovering the customer. Right. And it is like, You know, it, it is, it is worth kind of making that explicit because I think, I think in a lot of the thinking that, that I, and, you know, we on this side do, like, we just kind of assume like, you know, and then do product stuff, but it, it, you kind of outlined a, a good way of looking at it. [00:23:55] Is that like, well, it's not, and this sounds insulting, but this way or [00:24:00] pejorative, but like, it's not, it hasn't really been part of the business of banking to like pay attention to what your customer does. Right. And, and to put, to put it in kind of a neutral. That's because as you were kind of talking about at first, like banking is kind of commoditized, so it's just like, you have a savings account, you have a checking account. [00:24:20] I don't know what to tell you. Right? Like there's no, [00:24:23] Henri van den Bulk: yeah, that's right. There's [00:24:26] Coté: not really much to different. Right. But if you actually are getting to the point where customer experience is, some is something you're differentiating on, then that's, you have to like learn the techniques of. Paying attention to the, you know, the journeys that the customers go to, to go through the life cycle that they have, how you improve, what their experiences. [00:24:45] Yeah. And [00:24:45] Henri van den Bulk: that's, that's an important thing too. That's kind of the transition that's happening because, um, spot on, right, is that, uh, banking has kind of commoditized. You have a bank account that's not interesting anymore. What is interesting is understanding the financial [00:25:00] health. Of your customers understanding the life events that your customer has. [00:25:06] Right? So put it in perspective. If you have. They take the life of a customer. They go through different transitions, right? Understanding what those things are. And how do you, uh, simplify that part event? For example, they're going to go to high school. They're going to go to college, right? Your financial life changes there. [00:25:25] And are you guys, or, you know, when you have your first job, uh, when you actually start getting, thinking about retirement or vacations that you have. So for financial aid students understand that and then, uh, focus on how do I make those life events simple to do. Right. Um, so that ties into to even to a macro level, in my opinion. [00:25:45] Cause there's like, even when people say this disillusion of digital transformation that most of them have, um, is not gravitated towards those things. Because if you just talk like, oh, I'm making it simple for an account. Okay. Okay. So what did you go [00:26:00] from five minutes to 10 minutes or 10 minutes to five minutes. [00:26:02] Right? Interesting. But how does it tie to where am I at in my life to say that it's relevant of what I'm doing? Open Banking in the US and EU --- [00:26:10] Coté: So, so what is, what is the state of, uh, open banking in the U S cause, you know, we, I forget what the EU thing over here is, but like, you know, we have that over here and I kind of, I kind of see the effect of it. [00:26:24] I only have one bank over here. And of course, EU open banking. Doesn't work with the U S so I can't, I can't pull out on my existing stuff, but yeah, I mean, what's, what's been happening in the last three or so years since I've been more in the us banking system with that is, is, is mint just going to be replaced? [00:26:40] Is that, is that all I'll set to go or how how's it? How's it work? [00:26:45] Henri van den Bulk: Yeah, it's interesting. There's a lot of commercial players now, obviously it was to a certain extent, um, the, uh, the key one in the United States to kind of help aggregate [00:26:56] Coté: information and to demonstrate what could happen for it to. [00:27:00] [00:27:00] Henri van den Bulk: That's that's right. [00:27:01] And they've been able to get a pretty good solid business model around it. Now to compare it a little bit, just to kind of step back for everybody is that, um, uh, EMEA APJ really have started up this notion of PSD2, right? There's this kind of like a low standard for open, open banking, uh, which is also moving to, um, open loans, open insurance, um, regulation that's coming. [00:27:23] Right. But again, the fundamental of the notion is providing your financial institutions with an API that's consistent that you can build new capabilities on. Right. And the us is, what's more mint saying like, you know, like we're going to just scrape your, your, your banking websites. Right. And then, um, and the banks didn't like that. [00:27:41] So now they created some API APIs, but. Consistent per se, per se, um, for regulation, but now you have a lot of players, like, uh, plat is one example, um, that has signed up a lot of banking customers to allow you to aggregate financial [00:28:00] information at your bank versus. Intuit or, or mint. Right. Um, that's different because now again, back this grace, this new relationship where you, for example, if you had a Schwab or Citibank or JPMC filling the bank, I can help pull in my auto bank information. [00:28:16] Um, but there are very many, it's using a third party to doing that. That does the aggregation work. Um, so open banking as an API standard is not consistent in the U S is permitted driven through commercial, uh, waste like plaid, like Intuit to, to create those rules. [00:28:33] Coté: Yeah, but, but it's, it's, you know, I guess it'll get, you know, having your personal finance dashboard is certainly nice, right? [00:28:42] Like, you know, I, I have a Schwab account and they have it all in there, so it's easy just to like, it's almost to some extent faster than using mint, just because the, the, um, so the integration challenges, so blanche and reconciling, whereas I can look, I can look in there and it's like, [00:29:00] Easier to get a big picture of you, but, you know, I think you're right. Using open banking to create new features in banking, e.g., predictive retail banking --- [00:29:05] Coté: Or the second thing you're pointing to is what would be more interesting. Is, if you can have integration between all of those products that you have, right. Like, you know, like I like when we, we just moved to bought a new house here and we just got a mortgage with the bank that we have. Cause it just, cause that's what came up. [00:29:24] There's limited things for, for, uh, for ex-pats or whatever, but they're not limited. It was the easiest one and it just was coincidence. But, um, yeah, I mean, I mean, it would be, it'd be nice to just sort of like. Do some sort of OAuth authorization. I'm like my financial information and be like, all right, give me some offers. [00:29:46] Right? Like versus versus like, you know, we work with a broker and filled out all this stuff and you got to do that. And th there's a lot of oddly enough, literal paperwork involved in it. [00:29:58] Henri van den Bulk: You can ask. [00:30:00] It's interesting. When I say I, I think, um, aggregation of information, um, especially the financial information, the let's talk about the us. [00:30:07] Right. Um, those are good things, but it has to lead to something else. Yeah. Um, and that you have to keep the mind to the notion of trust. Like if you're doing a Google search and you're on Google, you're okay to do see some ads, right. To certain extent, right. It's a little bit violation of privacy of the things that they know. [00:30:26] Oh, wait, now you're doing it with my financial information. Um, right, right. So back to your side, like companies like Schwab, or do you have a trust relationship with you? And so you don't want to get like random advertisements per se, per se, right? What you actually want. It's like the next wave of in my life journey. [00:30:46] Um, what else can you help me with based on the information that you have. Right. Um, is it to simplify, uh, making a loan, right? I've seen that you you've reached that point, that you might want to purchase a home. You can make an offer say, well, you know [00:31:00] what, Coté, you have so many assets equities, um, something else, right? [00:31:04] Why don't we create you a package that allows you to do this? Right? So I think that's the next wave that your financial situation. Can use that, that complete view of you and your financial life to make really more subtle recommendations or recommendations versus the advertising notion of this makes sense. [00:31:24] That's where the new value comes in. [00:31:26] Coté: Yeah, no, no. I mean, that's, that's, uh, that's exactly the scenario. That would be nice as to not, not have to. Like, like, I don't want to be the integration point for sort of like for like my, my financial life. Right. Like all of that information exists somewhere. It's just like for many, many reasons that are there. [00:31:49] Good reasons. And then just like, you know, old, you know, legacy reasons, like it just doesn't work together. And, you know, you bring up a interesting point that like, um, [00:32:00] You know, I always think from a strategic point of view, trading on brand and trust is always like a mysterious, weird thing for strategy, right? [00:32:10] Like it's the mechanics of it are often odd, but this one is, is pretty, pretty clear that even more so than like healthcare data, I think at least for me personally, I already trust my bank with a lot of my information. And I would kind of, I mean, I think if I trust any bank that I trust with my information, I would trust them to have information from my other banks. [00:32:39] Right. Like, I don't know. I don't really want to hold that stuff at arms length versus like, you know, maybe I can, I can see that in the healthcare world, like there would be certain things that I don't want my insurance company to know. Right. Like, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's. I don't know if it's a prisoner's dilemma, but it's some kind of like logic dilemma where like, where [00:33:00] is the optimization of information I give them versus like now they're to optimize on their side and I lose out on my side. [00:33:07] Like, I need that equilibrium. Whereas like with banking, I mean, I guess there could be a scenario where if they knew, if they could calculate my credit credit better. I mean, you know, there's things you could go down, but in general, there's probably more positive outcomes on both sides. If you can trust this data is aggregated. [00:33:24] Henri van den Bulk: I think so it all comes to testing some out some subtle subtleties, right? Simple example, like, um, you don't want to have it all just on like, Hey, you're looking at your credit score. That feels a little bit violated, right? Because there's implications of that. However, to make your financial lives simpler. [00:33:43] Like for example, if you have options or something like that with like eTrade, um, I'm just making this up. Um, would you recognize you sell out of those on a regular basis and you transfer that money to your Schwab account or any of your other brokerage accounts? Um, [00:34:00] offering them opposite. You know what, I see you doing this on a regular basis. [00:34:04] I know what you're investing schedule is. Um, how can I help you out to do this automatically for you? Right. But that helps that it helps the institution because now the assets are moving. Right. But it creates a consistent trust relationship that you're not offering new products per se, or upselling you or creating more fees. [00:34:24] You know what, it's not a violation. It's more of saying, um, Hey, let me help you out. I see you two as regular and kind of a, that toil from you as a customer, as a customer. Um, I think that's where the value is, is, is going to be created and, and Caden, the subtleties that continues to emphasize. [00:34:41] Coté: So, I mean, that's an interesting, uh, palette to start to paint with, to do a dumb metaphor is like, so if you, if you, as a, if you, as a bank could rely, you know, if how would you start new strategies, a new, you know, it could just be a feature or a new line of [00:35:00] business or a new whatever. Like how could you rely on the trust that people have and come up with new, new products out of that, and new ways to retain people versus. [00:35:09] You know, any, anyone could like let you download a CSV file of like 10 years of financial history and then you, and then, you know, you could go upload it somewhere and see what the analysis was, but like, you know, Yeah, [00:35:25] Henri van den Bulk: I think UFC it's different. A couple of things. Yeah. I have to do, especially in front of someone, one, you have to be open and transparent about what you're doing and how you're doing things. [00:35:33] Right. Um, I, I go back to what PayPal did a while back ago, which I thought was not a great team. You could actually see how your data was being sold to all kinds of third parties. When you opened the moment you open up a PayPal account. Right, right, right. Um, That didn't create that much trust in my, my opinion. [00:35:50] Right. Um, but you know, financial institutions should really highlight this as well. This is what we know about you. This is what we see. Right. Um, [00:36:00] um, and in the show in like, who has access to it, including internal people inside of the company. Right. So. First and foremost is creating transparency. What is being done with your data, um, who has access to data as well, um, is an important thing to maintain the trust capability as well. [00:36:18] Um, and then internally you have to make sure that, um, you have to start experimenting with some of the things that say, if you create a new feature, it's, it's good to debate that inside of the finance organization apply to regulatory aspect of it, but just slowly, you want to test it out in the marketplace. [00:36:35] Um, and that's been not as natural in most financial institutes to test things out. Right. Okay. The hypothesis of something, maybe do some AB testing and your customers. Um, but again, be open and transparent that you're doing this, right. Um, to say, Hey, we're trying to figure out what a good products for you. [00:36:52] Um, that that's become part of the narrative for, for the banks. [00:36:57] Coté: Yeah. And I, and I think, I think that's, that's like the, the [00:37:00] goal of going through that journey is, you know, you discover your, what your customer's doing in the life cycle and you trading on this trust that you have. And then, and then, uh, you know, as people jokingly say, that's when the real work begins that now you need to actually just like go through the innovation cycle of just trying out things and, and, you know, Yeah. [00:37:18] I mean, obviously like building up all the safety nets and guardrails and whatever metaphor you want it that like, you know, to, to make sure or that you make you, you know, you maintain that trust. And also that things are secure and done. Well, I mean, all of that, right? Like I always think it's funny when, when not funny, but like it's, it's slightly, eye-rolling when people ask about security because it's sort of like, well, yeah, It's secure. [00:37:42] That's like, you know, it's like, it's like if we described a new type of food to you and you asked, does it taste good? And it's like, well, that's the intention is that it has to be, [00:37:53] Henri van den Bulk: yeah. It's a feature of what you already bought. Right. It's not like an afterthought. That [00:37:57] Coté: you're. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. [00:38:00] Yeah. Bye, bye! --- [00:38:00] Coté: All right. Well, I think, I think that's a good, uh, you know, as always, we never get down to, uh, all of the little footnotes and details that, uh, I, I originally wanted to, but I think, I think, I think we came to. That's that's kind of the setting for like, if you have an understanding of like, you know, doing design driven or product driven software or whatever, you want to talk about it. [00:38:20] And you're like, oh, we need to have Kubernetes installed. Right. Like, you know, and all, all the frameworks, all the stuff that we would talk about in Tanzu land. Right. Like getting to that. I th I think, I think what's, what's interesting in, in the banking world is like, well, the whole goal of what we're getting to is customer experience. [00:38:38] And what that means in this context is we want to come up with new ways that our customers work with us new features that we have ways of working with aggregated data that they might, that they might trust us to use. And essentially just taking that product mindset where we're really paying attention to like, well, so how do we make our customer's lives [00:39:00] better? [00:39:00] Right? Like, like how do, how do we find problems they have and improve the current jobs to be done that they have. Work on that instead of like, you know, we're a bank and we just provide what we have, which, which is a valuable service, but there's now the potential to do all sorts of other things to, uh, grow and, and get new customers and retain the ones. [00:39:20] Yeah. [00:39:22] Henri van den Bulk: You need to go beyond just a savings accounts that's right, right, right, right. [00:39:27] Coté: That's right. Yeah. Because as far as I can tell, you know, saving interest rates and savings accounts, they don't really fluctuate that much. [00:39:34] Henri van den Bulk: Nope. Removes the worry out of people's lives, simplify their lives in their frame franchise site. [00:39:41] So I think that's what it's all [00:39:42] Coté: about. Good. All right. Well, do you have, uh, are, are you, are you in Twitter or LinkedIn? Do you have some, a weblog that you post your, your thoughts to? What, what, what do you want to add? [00:39:54] Henri van den Bulk: Um, yeah, bill be on billboards. Right. But, uh, Twitter aside is, uh, [00:40:00] @hmvandenb, um, and obviously you follow me on LinkedIn postings in a couple of different areas around, uh, secure supply chains and financial financial services. [00:40:09] Um, that's where. I hang out. Yeah. [00:40:11] Coté: All right. Well, that's great. Well, uh, yeah, thanks. That was fun stuff. And. Uh, we, I broadcast these as videos sometimes. Uh, also it shows up in the Tanzu Talk podcast, but if you want to find all of that, you can go to TanzuTalk.Com. There's where you can subscribe to the podcast. [00:40:27] If you click on the videos thing, you can go see the videos that we have, like this one that you've seen and, uh, you know, check out everything that's going on there and we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye. [00:40:36]