Anna (00:00:05):
Welcome to Zero Knowledge. I'm your host, Anna Rose. In this podcast, we will be exploring the latest in zero knowledge research and the decentralized web, as well as new paradigms that promise to change the way we interact and transact online.

Anna (00:00:27):
This week Tarun and I dive back into the NFT space with our guest, Luiz from FingerprintsDAO. FingerprintsDAO collects artworks created using smart contracts in a creative way. And it's made up of a collection of artists, curators and creators. We explore generative blockchain, native NFTs, like Autoglyphs, and how these differ from most of the straight up JPEG-based NFTs that we're familiar with. We also look at the difference between art on the blockchain and collectors items. The reason Tarun also shared insights into a ton of different projects, NFT collectives, initiatives. Anyway, so if you're interested in diving in, we're going to add a lot of links for this one in the show notes. If you want to explore all of those, but before we start in, I want to let you know about the upcoming ZK Jobs Fair. It happens on September 30th, and this is our fourth time bringing together top talent with hiring teams in the ZK space. If you are looking for a new opportunity and you want to start working with a project focused on ZK, do apply. It is all held online and it's a great way to meet your potential future employers and colleagues in a pretty casual setting. We hold it on Gather.Town. So hope to see you there. I've added the link to apply in the show notes. I also want to say a big thank you to this week. Sponsor Aleo, Aleo is a new public, L1 blockchain tailor-made for building private applications. It's based on cutting edge research in the field of zero-knowledge cryptography. The project combines the programmability of Ethereum, the privacy of Zcash and the scalability for roll-up. They've also built a new smart contract language from the ground up called Leo, which enables folks who may not be cryptography PhDs to still be able to harness the power of zero knowledge proofs and in doing so they can build the next generation of private applications like front-running resistant decentralized exchanges, hidden information games, regulated stablecoins and NFTs - topic of this episode, and more do check out the website, aleo.org to learn more about the protocol. Aleo is also inviting the community to participate in an ongoing set-up ceremony for trustlessly generating the system parameters. I actually worked a little bit with the Aleo team on an earlier iteration of this setup. So I personally am excited to run it. If you want to contribute and learn more, do check it out at setup.aleo.org. I've added all the links in the show notes. I want to say thank you again, Aleo. Now here is our episode all about FingerprintsDAO. So this week Tarun and I are chatting with Luiz from FingerprintsDAO. So welcome to the show, Luiz.

Luiz (00:03:00):
Hi. Hi there.

Anna (00:03:01):
And welcome back Tarun.

Tarun (00:03:02):
Hey, always, always happy to be here.

Anna (00:03:05):
Luiz, can I call you the co-founder of this DAO? Like, is there such a thing as a co-founder of a DAO? I'm curious how you describe your role in this project?

Luiz (00:03:15):
It's a tricky question because we're supposed to say no, but everything has a like a founding group in some sense, and people naturally tend to seek leaders. So I think in the early days, that's important for the DAO you have at least some kind of leadership, but if the idea is to truly be a DAO, so decentralized autonomous organization, we should expect that the it's not reliant on a single individual or a group of individuals. But in the early days of any project is very hard. Not to not to have a group of people that are really that have the idea, are pushing the project forward because every idea kind of starts with 1, 2, 3 people. It's very hard to start already with a thousand people or something.

Anna (00:04:07):
Yeah, I think this does seem to be a challenge of launching decentralized projects. Like as much as the goal is decentralization and people want it immediately, you often do need like vision and tight coordination, and this might actually be something more doable in a small, tight knit group, at least at the start. I mean, I guess this is why like startups that are small can also be like more nimble.

Luiz (00:04:29):
Well, if it's something that it's born already finished, like a finished product, maybe you can like already bootstrap a DAO from day one, but if it requires any kind of vision, it's very hard not to have some group that is like pushing the vision forward.

Anna (00:04:49):
So why don't you start off by telling us what exactly is FingerprintsDAO? Oh, wait, wait. Actually, is it FingerprintsDAO or FingerprintDAO.

Luiz (00:04:58):
Fingerprints. Yeah. So Fingerprints was born as a collection. I would say like a collective collection, so where people are putting their funds together to collect, we started with a collection of Autoglyphs, which is very iconic early NFT by the same creators of CryptoPunks that are now super famous. And it was the first, truly on-chain NFT. It's a generative arts project where every single well, the whole information, the arts itself, it started on-chain. So what you own when the token is the arts that, that was a very innovative concepts and like it sparkled a whole generative arts movements afterwards most recently with Art Blocks. But we started with the collection that has like a very important provenance, same creators as CryptoPunks and a very tight community me and the founding group, we identify that, okay, it's a relatively small collection, 512 Autoglyphs. And we identified that, okay, maybe if we put together some funds, buy large amount of Autoglyphs, first, it's going to be very hard for anyone else to replicate this idea. And second, we can use this as a focal point. So like a shelling points to start a DAO. So, okay everybody is going to congregate around this collection and then we can grow the collection and also grow the activities that are DAO does. So now Fingerprints not only collects, but it also curates produces arts. So we have like a collaborative project and we are also incubating other DAOs. We've incubated one DAO called emergence DAO, which focuses on another NFT. And we have some discussions about incubating another DAO now with photography. So it's really expanding, the idea of what the DAO does.

Anna (00:07:10):
This sounds like it's moving incredibly quickly. How old is this project? When did you actually start it?

Luiz (00:07:17):
It's four months old. Yeah.

Anna (00:07:18):
This is nuts. That's wild. So you've like, not only have you launched a DAO of your own, but you're like incubating others. Oh, actually I should check. Like, is it launched? Is it still like an idea?

Luiz (00:07:30):
No, no. So Fingerprints has over 200 members. It's governed by a token that currently at current market prices, the fully diluted valuation is $280 million. Some funds invested already in Fingerprints. They a16z, USV, Consensus other funds as well. And it's, it's launched.

Anna (00:07:56):
It's launched. And it's to the point where now you're even thinking of like incubating others. That's wild.

Luiz (00:08:03):
Yeah. I think this is a framework that many DAOs are going to use because when you have to scale and you have to keep the incentives aligned for new projects, it's very hard to do it within a larger DAO. So if you have a different project that has a somewhat different focus and your need for the early people to be really involved in the project, I think the idea of having some DAOs is going to be more fitting, almost like a biological organism that has like, okay, it has like other cells and they communicate in some way, but they're a part of the same family or like the same body, you know, it can, yeah, it can, it can even become something bigger than the, the original one. So it's a thing in itself, but it keeps some and leverages some of the, the community that is already formed the structure, the fund. It can be beneficial to both.

Anna (00:09:04):
You go back in time, a little bit pre FingerprintsDAO to like what you and the other co-founders were maybe working on, like, what were, what part of I'm trying to figure out if you're coming from art or if you're coming from blockchain. Okay. So what's your background?

Luiz (00:09:18):
Okay. So I used to work in traditional finance some time ago. I work at Goldman. I work at Blackstone before. 2016 I left, I wanted to found my own company. Eventually I, I was already interested in crypto, but got really interested when I was in San Francisco, saw like Vitalik speaking understood like 10% of what he said, but then 2017 came crypto becomes some, became something bigger where I, where I said, okay, I could go full time in crypto now. And since 2018, I have a CryptoQuant fund where we trade Bitcoin futures, ether futures. And we actually have a partnership with the largest quants funds in Latin America. And it's, it's a more like traditional kind of funds, not venture. Really focusing on the large, larger assets. But earlier this year, I'd say January, maybe I became really interested in NFTs. That interest started back. So I had anonymous Twitter accounts which by the way, Tarun was the person who plucked me out of anonymity. He discovered, discovered the accounts the accounts became had more followers and I created this account to learn more about DeFi actually, but there was a small.

Anna (00:10:47):
Are you blue Kirby?

Tarun (00:10:52):
No, no, that's it. I mean, you know, that's a very different styles of anonymous account.

Luiz (00:11:01):
But eventually I it's the same account I use today, but eventually I just thought to myself and I said, okay, because when you want to build something, I believe like it's harder to anonymity is very hard to scale. So it's it's, it's better for people to know, okay, who's behind this, but going back to the fight. So in DeFi, there was a small group of people that were very passionate about NFTs. And I had this car from like 2017 when I, I bought one CryptoKitty, lost eth to that. So a lot of people made money in CryptoKitties. I lost money. So I had this idea that, oh, this is just a game. This is not interesting. But eventually I started to dig deeper into NFTs ended up buying a CryptoPunk, selling a CryptoPunk, having this feeling of, okay, I made some money here, but I lost something. You know, I felt like I was collecting this stuff. And eventually it got to art. And then like, it was something that really expanded the possibilities and I felt, okay, this is so early. This is still being built, you know? So there's like space to build stuff. So it's a very interesting design space. I would say, NFTs.

Anna (00:12:15):
I'm curious a little bit about how the two of you intersect, because Tarun introduced me to you Luiz. So Tarun, how did you come into contact with this project?

Tarun (00:12:25):
Well, you know, I think we already had the alpha leak of of, we just ran this Twitter, which had, you know, I think he undersold it, which is it, it, it was called Degenaissance Technologies, making fun of Renaissance technologies that kind of famous company fund. And he just had very biting takes on things that people wouldn't want to say in public, or like maybe things that were, you know, kind of unseemly that were happening in the background, kind of post DeFi summer in particular. And these hot takes, I think, were appreciated by a lot of people who are paying attention, but like also no one really wanted to say anything themselves. And you know, I think right now, you know, I'd say that and on his similar power as to what Degenaissance did at that time with his Tuba, but there's kind of like a sense in which like, before Luiz fell down the NFT collection rabbit hole, I think he was, he was what Tuba is now.

Anna (00:13:28):
So trolling DeFi

Tarun (00:13:32):
And, you know, over time I started just doing it more and being like, what, what are you doing? Who are you? What is you do? You know? Like, yeah. And then, then I think eventually, you know, as Fingerprints got started, I think we started talking more and, you know, I think Fingerprints and PleasrDAO are kind of like the sort of Vanguard of that era of people moving from, or like people kind of, collectivizing some of the, let's say wealth earned from DeFi into art collection of different forms. And I think to me, the thing that was most appealing about Fingerprints is, you know, on-chain art is kind of this very unexplored area, because almost all I'm putting air quotes "crypto art" right now it's really just like traditional generative art. And doesn't take advantage of the medium in any way, shape or form. And I think the idea of having like a curated kind of set of art that is trying to be at the forefront of things that take advantage of actually being on a blockchain is really important. So I think the thing that convinced me of this was the, which, which I guess in retrospect, may be not viewed as favorably. It was Hashmasks because Hashmasks did this thing. That sounds really stupid, but no, this, this can't happen in normal art. It sort of happens by social consensus and normal art. It doesn't happen normally, which is when Hashmasks are minted. The first owner has the right to change the name, which is a text field in NFT. And then it's burnt on any subsequent answer. So it can never be changed after that. And there's, there's a lot of stuff regarding ownership and the art itself that somehow is like, never quite, I feel like a lot of blockchain artists just like trying to go after Hypebeast and Supreme kind of stuff. But, you know, I think what's appealing about Fingerprints is they really focused on this, this kind of more native to blockchain style art.

Anna (00:15:30):
So you had mentioned this Autoglyphs kind of on this topic. I actually don't know what that is. So, I mean, I understand it's generative art, it's on the blockchain. Tell me, tell me what that is exactly? Like, what does it look like? How does it work?

Luiz (00:15:46):
So Autoglyphs, they look like QR codes to a lot of people say they, they look like QR codes, but if you have a reference of Mondrian, Mondrian has some studies that are very similar to Autoglyphs. They are basically does well glyphs what like a keyboard kind of icons where you have like tens of different patterns that form on art itself. Like, so that's the base pattern and the way the algorithm combines it's ensured into the art itself, but they are on purpose, very simple, because to be fully stored on-chain, they have to be very simple, but that, that was the innovation. So the real art that's, that's very, that's very interesting about Autoglyphs because they are built on the very early reference for our generative art, which is a Sol LeWitt. And what should see as the image is not the art, the art are the instructions of how to draw that. So what do you have stored on-chain is the code that generates the art and that's like a cake recipe, you know, so the cake, you see the cake, but the real art is the recipe in that sense. So it's, it's a very interesting concept that underlies a lot of the generative arts, but the most interesting thing is taking that, that already existed. The creators, when you go to the website of Larva Labs, when they show Autoglyphs, they say that, oh, we are using like wall drawings by Sol LeWitt like the same reference, but the fact that they can do it on-chain. And there's another thing that is also interesting. So the, the algorithm uses the, the transaction hash. So the transaction itself to create the art. So in a way, the person minting the Autoglyphs is part of the creation itself. So that wasn't possible at all in another setting like this is native to the technology now, that's, that's why it's, it's a unique and very innovative in that sense.

Anna (00:18:00):
It's the algorithm itself. And this is something I've never fully understood also about like CryptoKitties back in the day, but like, is the algorithm for generation, is that in a smart contract or does it called a smart contract? Could you even write that into a smart contract?

Luiz (00:18:14):
In the, in the, in the case of Autoglyphs, like there's two different things. Like the generation of the art itself is in the Autoglyphs contract. Okay. What you see on OpenSea, for example, when it goes, see Autoglyphs, that's the results of the instructions there. You can use the same instructions to print one Autoglyphs. And if you go to the bottom of the official Autoglyph's websites LarvaLabs, there's a, I forgot the name of the machine, that just like prints instructions. It prints like on paper, you can write it on paper. You can, you can write, use your hands to, to write on our own, to, to follow the same instructions and get you the same image of Autoglyphs. It's really a recipe. It's not an image that is stored on-chain.

Tarun (00:19:02):
So, I mean, one thing to remember is like, as we just mentioned, Sol LeWitt is a sort of famous artist from like the Northeast, from like the 1970s and 80s who every single one of his pieces that exists around the world, he basically had done none of, I mean, I think, I think there's probably some small number of Sol LeWitt pieces that were actually made by him, but his entire thing was about writing extremely detailed instructions so that anyone could replicate them. And then each replica would be slightly different. So somehow he printed NFTs like before NFTs existed. And so this is sort of the, this is like the on-chain. He's sort of like one of the quintessential modern art Canon from like the 70s and 80s. So I think like this type of stuff, at least personally, I find really compelling as it takes what people take as modern art and sort of brings it into the 21st century versus kind of like, I took a Bible and put it in a washing machine. And now it's a..

Anna (00:20:04):
Piece of art in a gallery, if it's in a gallery.

Tarun (00:20:06):
No, I've seen that in a gallery.

Luiz (00:20:10):
So if you go to the Autoglyphs website, you can see it. They have a gif of gif, of a CNC plotter rendering the autographs on paper. So it's the same instructions, but instead of an image, you can render it on paper it's, it's, it's very similar. It's, what's Tarun said. It's the same concept, very detailed instructions of how to reproduce the art and the instructions themselves are there the art. Not a reproduction.

Anna (00:20:40):
I have a question about, like you mentioned sort of Art Blocks and are CryptoPunks generative, or are aren't they JPEGs like aren't they made before generated maybe before using something and then stuff on-chain. I like, yeah. Tell me, tell me how they compare.

Luiz (00:21:00):
So they are generative in the sense that you combine the characteristics. And as far as I'm aware, like the artists themselves didn't know the outputs from the beginning, only the, I think they knew like the probability of each attributes and the computer generated the final image so in that sense they are generative or Larva Labs themselves, like the artists. They do this distinction of calling CryptoPunks, collectibles and Autoglyphs, art. I think there's some dispute there. Like what is art is a infinite rabbit hole of a question, but it's very clear that for the more traditional art folk, does it seem like, or Autoglyphs are clearly seen as taking this Sol LeWitt reference, like building on this reference while CryptoPunks they're, they're interesting, they're generative, but some people would see them more as a collectible than arts. Now maybe they're almost getting to the, to that point where you would just call them art.

Anna (00:22:04):
And then there's Art Blocks, which I it's a different project is that generative on-chain?

Luiz (00:22:09):
So Art Blocks is actually a path form Art Blocks. I'm not entirely sure when they were launched maybe October last year around that. So Art Blocks takes this idea of you can take an algorithm and having people come to the, in this case to the website, to mint and generate a new art piece, and it extended to the idea of building a platform on that. So you have hundreds of artists, they launch their projects on Art Blocks. So actually the name Fingerprints came from a blog post that I wrote back in, I don't know, February, March, so Fingerprints of the blockchain, because the idea was Art Blocks was like bringing this Renaissance because Autoglyphs was in 2019. There were a few projects in between Autoglyphs and the launch of Art Blocks as a platform, but with Art Blocks, that was really when everything acquired on the other scale, a lot of great artists use the platform treatment. So most of the, the generative art projects that we see that are the most famous, like Fidenza, Ringers, Chromie Squiggles, they're all on Art Blocks. Our blocks is like gigantic now and introduced a lot of people, myself included show the concept of generative art. So Art Blocks became something much, much bigger, and a lot of people are trying to replicate their success now.

Tarun (00:23:38):
One thing I just want to add is like, almost all the pieces on Art Blocks are generative and that they're produced, it's like Processing or Unity or something like that, but they are all produced prior to launch, right? So they are truly just normal JPEGs. They're not actual like things that, and part of the reason is most artists don't write custom smart contracts for their art. I think Autoglyphs is a really great example where the smart contract is sort of the art, but it's like the input to the art is the randomness from the blockchain and the randomness from the users who called mint function. But I think like what we're starting to see is there've been people like DEAFBEEF and 0xmons who are also starting to do like directly on-chain types of art. And there is that distinction in the sense that like art box underneath block art are, you know, for instance, places where people who make generative art go, but the art is not actually on-chain, the art is made beforehand.

Anna (00:24:38):
In the case of these generative art on-chain, who is the artist? I feel like this is going to be one of these like existential art questions, but like, is the artist, the person who creates the rules or is the artists the one who inputs the randomness? Who's the creator?

Luiz (00:24:56):
I think there is a little dispute that the creator of the algorithm is the creator. I think we'll start to see something different happening if we give the ability for people to curate. So let's say you have a, you have an algorithm. It generates with some output regenerates, like some, some random output, but you can only, you can choose what you mint. And you have like a fixed set collection of, I dunno, 500, 1000 in this case you have, okay, I have the generator. So if I'm the artist, I have the generator, but the person is in a way curating the art and choosing the output. So in that sense, it's it starts to, to blur a little bit more the lines, but we will still have to see more examples of that for now. We all see like them as, as they belong to the artists.

Anna (00:25:54):
So another question that I keep having about just the NFT craziness in general is like, how is value actually being assigned to these at the start? Like, how does that process happen, that all of a sudden this thing is valuable?

Luiz (00:26:11):
So for most of the early NFTs, they were either free, so free to mint, like in the case of CryptoPunks you could just mint and pay gas costs for minting Autoglyphs are almost free like .2 eth, or 0.02 eth. Like at that time where he was very cheap, but Autoglyphs, Autoglyphs like they add up in a few hours because people already, like, there was a, a small, but very fanatical group that was following Larva Labs from that time. Like mincing any of these projects would be like a big win because it's basically free. And the value was very like organic in that sense where it just like some people sold for five eth thinking, okay, that was great deal. And like, now Autoglyphs are like 400 eth or something, 450 eth. Each and the cheap ones. But because there are some different rarities for Autoglyphs, but it's like the way to assign value is, is very subjective. I would say now we are seeing a lot of now the NFTs are going for like high prices. We are seeing a lot of different models on how to price things from the start. Art Blocks, for example, it was a good case study for this, because from the beginning they would charge small minting price. So in the early days, minting anything on Art Blocks was a great thing to do because you immediately basically like, get your money back from minting, but he became very competitive. So people had to, to spend a lot of gas. So that's, that's not a great model because in the end, who is getting paid the most is, are the miners, the miners. Yeah. Not the artists. And, and, and it became like a bad experience for people minting. So they decided to change to a Dutch auction. So you start at a high price and the price keeps going down until it reaches a low price and you can buy from the beginning. But knowing that you are going to pay the highest price, this is better to the artists. Some of the artists are getting 8-10 million now from one drop in Art Blocks. And this is a very different model. And some other artists, that's not very usual common for generative arts, but some arts is just referred to, to auctions. There's some experimentation going on in the market on how to price from the beginning.

Anna (00:28:55):
Cool. I have a last questions on Autoglyphs, and then I want to focus more on the DAO itself, but you mentioned rarity and rare attributes. What, like these look like QR codes, they're basically just like lines generated in kind of seemingly random patterns. How are there rare features? Like with CryptoPunks, I think it's pretty obvious because it tends to be like the smoking avatar or like the skull. Like there's like very clear, that's a rare thing. But when you're talking about these like lines, how, how do people figure it out?

Luiz (00:29:29):
So there are 10 different symbol schemes there, like crosses, lines, circles, squares. So the combination of these makes it like rare or not. So I think that the least rare Autoglyph, which is like uses like an X and a 2 bars generate the arts has a 128. I would see, I can check this number. So all 128's and the least the rarest of the all, which is type 10 symbol, it only has 8. So, ah, so it's 121 for type 1, which is the most common until it goes to 8 for type 10. So this is the rarity is assigned in this way. It's easily identifiable when, once you see it and once you go and people, people created communities around it and like they know every single detail they know like it's, it's crazy. People can start to get very specific in this kind of things. Like they really studied the arts.

Tarun (00:30:44):
One thing that people have to maybe, you know, I know the audience of this podcast is usually more technical, is that Autoglyphs and DEAFBEEF for probably the only actually quite like technically challenging art to have made so far that I've seen. I mean, it may be 0Xmons a little bit, but the really, really the two of them have like, you know, they go through a deployment process that doesn't look so different from building a DeFi protocol. And so like, there's kind of this interesting line that's blurred between art and software development technology that I think like we don't see as often, like whenever people do art and tech and like the normal world, like I had, I had an exhibit once at a museum and it's totally different. It's like, you can't make the medium that you're showing it on adapt to the art itself or to the viewers. And in some sense, that's like the unique thing about crypto-generative art. And so I definitely, if you're technical and you're like, I don't care. This art stuff seems like Ponzi scheme. Well, first of all, remember everything's Ponzi scheme if you squint enough. Second, you know, really look at the code for this type of stuff. I think you'll be more surprised at the depth that people have.

Anna (00:31:55):
Cool. By the way Tarun, I did just hear. Did you just say you had an art gallery show at some point, yourself?

Tarun (00:32:02):
Yeah, I had, I had, I had, I had a showing and in the new museum in New York in 2019, but you know, people have asked me if I would make NFTs of this generative art, but I have not so far as to come to that, but maybe one day.

Anna (00:32:20):
Cool. Well, I wanna, I want to explore this more. I didn't know this. I didn't know that you were making art at all.

Luiz (00:32:25):
We have to launch something together.

Tarun (00:32:29):
Well, I'll send you the link to the piece if you want to put it in the show notes.

Anna (00:32:35):
Okay. Sounds good. Okay. Let's move on to the DAO. You know, so far we've talked mostly about like this kind of art, this kind of NFT, giving people a bit of a sense for like what you've actually put into this art, what this DAO owns. So you, you kind of have given us your story to the launch of this thing. There's people who've invested in it, but how do you launch a DAO based on NFTs? Like what is this thing that is Fingerprints DAO?

Luiz (00:33:05):
Okay. So I focus a lot so far on Autoglyphs, but it's important to understand as well that like the collection has grown quite a lot from Autoglyphs since launch. So the idea was always to, okay, this is going to be something beyond these artwork itself. So Tarun mentioned another artist who is also one member that we collect DEAFBEEF and recently has become like one of the highest sales in NFTs as well think like something like 2,708 it's like $10 million.

Anna (00:33:40):
Just $10 million

Luiz (00:33:43):
For one for a full sets of each one of his series. So on the DAO itself. So when I thought about this the thesis for Autoglyphs and I had personally bought one, like I bought also one for my company, my partner in the company also bought one. We formed a small group of people. So I'm, I'm Brazil actually. I me, I mean, I'm based in São Paulo and we formed a small group of mostly Brazilians. People who are not really crypto people, I would say, but they are, so there's a one unicorn founder of 2 actually, unicorn founders, people that were really into the idea of NFTs, but not exactly a crypto native. And they both pulled together the initial funds for us to acquire the 20 Autoglyphs, to form, the, the, the initial collection for the DAO. And the way we did is we donated the Autoglyphs to the DAO. And that's like, imagine the DAO only had tokens in treasury from the beginning, we donated the Autoglyphs to the DAO and we received the tokens, governance tokens. And then what we did is, okay, well now we have to have more people being part of the DAO, having a governance tokens as well, and deciding this because like, up to that point was like a simple collection of it. Wasn't a DAO at all. So we open up the DAO already, like Twitter and assess this that was started on Twitter because Twitter was, was where people started to become interested in the project. I reached out to some people as well, but it was all like with people that I already had some contact before, like private conversations and on the first phase for the DAO, I think we onboarded 50 people if I'm not mistaken. And then was like a more natural process,

Anna (00:35:44):
Like friends. Friends of friends, I guess.

Luiz (00:35:46):
Like, yeah, it was, it was actually the fact that we were started collecting Autoglyphs helps a lot because other Autoglyphs collectors joined the DAO. Basically, I think we have like all the top five or six Autoglyphs collectors are in the DAO from the beginning, except for Larva Labs, like the, the, the creators, but on many artists also joined. So DEAFBEEF was the one, one person that joined from the beginning. So having artists joining from the beginning helped a lot in the second stage where we started to expand the collection and people would come with all the, like this, they pseudo, like there's a lot of suggestions floating around, like NFTs are being created every second. And one thing that is part of our ethos is to be very focused because there are some other DAOs that basically act as like index funds, where they buy everything, they buy one of everything. It's, it's not a bad strategy for portfolio, I would say, but we wanted to keep our curatorial thesis very tight, very strong. So we focused more on things that were using smart contracts as art, like you know, in a way that was really yes, yes. So it ended up so far we've collected basically some innovative generative art, like Autoglyphs, DEAFBEEF, and also some conceptual arts that it's not necessarily using the blockchain to store the arts, but it used in some way where the meaning of the art itself happened in the blockchain.

Anna (00:37:32):
So are you talking Loot, maybe?

Tarun (00:37:35):
No, no, no. This is older. This is older than Ethereum. Oh, yes. Yeah. It's so, so, so, so the spoiler alert here is actually the person I did that art project with is the creator of this.

Anna (00:37:50):
Oh, what is it?

Tarun (00:37:53):
So I think Tarun is even a better person to explain than myself, because it was much earlier than Fingerprints on it, but the project is called Bitchcoin.

Anna (00:38:04):
Oh, wait. Yeah. I heard about this. Tell, tell us more.

Tarun (00:38:13):
Yeah, I mean, the original Bitchcoin was really like, you could think of it as like, you know, in 2015 pre-Ethereum, my friend, Sarah, she was, she effectively like tokenized museum membership. So each person kind of who bought a Bitchcoin, got a sort of token that was related to their going and seeing a museum exhibit and seeing sort of something she made. And then she would go write that effectively on the Bitcoin blockchain. So each UTXO would be an NFT effectively. And there's this certain number of UTXOs that meant you owned this thing. And so the remember this is pre-smart contracts. You can't, this is like the best you could do, right. To make an NFT. And at that time, I think there was only like one other one that was something similar where people had done ours. Rare Pepe came out later that year before the Ethereum. But yeah, she tried to take some real life thing, give it scarcity and then represent the ownership and that scarcity via a small set of UTXOs. But then she did this VR exhibit in 2018 where she took 3,149, I think, flower petals representing sort of inventions at Bell Labs. You know, who created the transistor. And she went to kind of the old Bell Labs building and did this kind of like VR ceremony slash tour of the place. And so if you go to the exhibit, it's called Cloud of Petals, it represents a lot of the technological innovations that Bell Labs made over the last 50 years, but, you know, kind of an artistic rendition of it. And so each of those petals is now backed by Bitchcoin on the Ethereum.

Anna (00:39:52):
Yeah. So Bitchcoin was on Bitcoin. It was like a writing in the, is it just like in the text fields? Like in the note kind of?

Tarun (00:40:01):
A yes. Yeah. Effectively.

Anna (00:40:03):
Okay. But now it's on Ethereum?

Tarun (00:40:05):
Basically, there's a redemption process. And if you redeem for a petal because there's 3149 on petals and the petals exist in reality you, you look get the private key to the UTXO, so you'll get the Bitcoin UTXO later.

Anna (00:40:21):
I see. Okay. But wait, or is it still, like you just said, it's on Ethereum, so wait, where does it live now?

Tarun (00:40:26):
So the, the, the pieces that are, are related to the petals are on Ethereum, but there is a redemption process. So if you own one of these NFTs, you can redeem it for one of these petals and each petal represents sort of like an important patent from Bell Labs.

Anna (00:40:41):
Okay, I'm just, I'm trying to, for some reason, I'm, I'm like not following this. It's like, if you have an old one on Bitcoin, you could get one on Ethereum?

Tarun (00:40:50):
Yeah. So exactly. So there is, there is some creation process like that, but there's also a redemption process where some of the UTXO still have private keys that you can redeem if you have the petal, but it was multiple art projects kind of strung together.

Anna (00:41:05):
Got it.

Tarun (00:41:06):
But a lot of what this is, is just like taking this art that effectively represented scarcity in some way in the real world and mapping it onto an NFT well, actually Luiz, how did Fingerprints end up buying Bitchcoin?

Luiz (00:41:21):
So we actually had a few members that were all connected to Sarah. So we did this step up where we started your venture a little bit away from this idea of necessarily being on-chain or a generative when we bought IKB, which is a 2017 project also called Sachel, super interesting as well. So IKB's there and to tell how we got to Bitchcoin, I have to tell how we got to IKBs. So there's this artist that both Sarah, and Mitchell F Chan is the artist IKBs, so they both referenced this 1950s, French avant-garde artists called Yves Klein and Yves Klein, Yves became famous because

Anna (00:42:16):
Did he do the color blue?

Luiz (00:42:18):
Yes. Yes.

Anna (00:42:19):
That guy, he just patented a color.

Luiz (00:42:21):
Yes, yes. So there's a famous exhibition by Yves Klein called zones of immaterial, pictorial sensibility. Everything was supposed to reference to the color blue, the famous client blue, but nothing there on the, the original 1950s exhibition was blue, so it was just an empty white room here. He served drinks that made the people's urine blue afterwards in that exit, in that exhibition. And he sold, I think he sold two or three artworks where it was just immaterial artworks, and he would give a certificate for one of these artworks in exchange for gold. Then afterwards there was a ceremony and the ceremony was the collector would burn the certificate. Like the only thing that connected to the art itself and Yves would dump in the same, the river half of the gold, the gold and the rest he will do using other artworks. There's an artist called Mitchell F Chan that in 2017 decided, okay, let's try to reproduce the exact same process on Ethereum.

Anna (00:43:38):
Well, there's the burning feature, which is useful.

Luiz (00:43:40):
Yes. So what he did was he did basically a smart contract and there was a series for this IKB is 'Yves Klein blue' that's like the name of the token. So it's in a smart contract that, where you would to mint one of these you would deposit eth to the smart contract and you'll get a certificate. That's the NFT. If later on, you decide to burn the NFT half of eth, that is in the smart contract gets burned as well. So he didn't intended to do an NFT back then. And these were like, this was two months after the launch of CryptoPunks. There was not like something that people were creating NFTs and he ended up creating an NFT like his, like the process of trying to, to reproduce if clients work on the blockchain on the Ethereum blockchain generated this, this idea. So this was something that a lot of members were very interested it's very early as well. And was the first step that we, we decided to collect Mitchell was already a member also in Fingerprints. So we collected three original 2017 artworks. And we collected orders that he launched afterwards, other series from the same contract that he launched later on. But that was for us, that was okay. Now we can venture a little bit more into conceptual art. And eventually we got to Bitchcoins, which is an even earlier example now supported to, to Ethereum. But that just goes to show that people have been thinking about these issues of value of how NFTs are created and how is value assigned for a long time? Like for a very long time, this is not new. Every single discussion that we see, like, oh, whoa, where's the value of the art why it should be valued like this? This is a conversation that has like, it's older than every, every single one of us.

Tarun (00:45:44):
But, but I think one thing that's important is like, I've seen a lot of people be like, NFTs are just performance art. And it's like, yes, there is some excellent, amazing performance art that has existed in the world. You know, it's like, imagine if Marina Abramović made a you know, made an NFT right? It's like, it's just like, there's just so many, so much stuff of this form that's existed. And most people are just, maybe it's their first time hearing it. So it's like, wow, this is crazy. But in some ways, a lot of the types of things that Fingerprints looks at, and a lot of the types of things, I think that are at the sort of more edge of crypto art are the types of things that we've had in the normal world for a long time. But they've been very painstaking and annoying to, to make projects like that. Whereas they're kind of easy for anyone to do now who can write the smart contract.

Anna (00:46:35):
Do you think that in a way though, because it's so easy and there's this huge flood of new pieces like this, I know that right now, we're in this moment of like incredible price highs and it just keeps growing and growing. But like, are you looking at this thinking like, there's gotta be a crash or there's going to be a deflation, there's going to be over-saturation? Yeah. Is that something you're thinking about?

Tarun (00:47:01):
I don't think there will be a crash for the true generative on-chain pieces because they're very few of them. They're just, there is a barrier to entry of how good of a concept have you come up with, plus how well can you program, right. And that barrier is much harder than I took. I wrote made a cute picture of a penguin. If that makes sense.

Luiz (00:47:22):
It's, we've seen, we've seen over the last few months, a lot of the it's, it was very cyclical. So it, wasn't only up for any collection because people like the, this is the same for every market. Like the expectations get higher people start to price things, high buying. I mean, the expectation that keeps going up. So it's natural that we'll see a pullback at some point. But I agree with the room in the sense that for some collections like Autoglyphs, I think it's very a defensible DEAFBEEF as well, people who are buying them, they are less likely to be trying to flip, especially because there's so few of them. And it's a very high barrier to enter now I believe like in the last six months for Autoglyphs, for example the kind of people who are holding them, they don't need to sell. Basically it became more like this. That's not the same for most other projects. So I think there's a, like the fact that it's very easy now to do, to do some of the things and the fact that the market is very rational makes curation much more important because to really distinguish between what is low effort what is not historically important, what is not innovative? What is simply like a copycat or something that has been done before? It's important to it you'll have curation when it's all going up, it feels like you're missing opportunities. I would say, but having strong curation is saying no, like a hundred times to say yes once. But in the downturn, that becomes very clear.

Anna (00:49:07):
So you're buying these artworks, these NFTs, it's controlled by a DAO, and there's a token that comes from that. But do you ever sell those pieces? Like, is it a buying and selling that the DAO is doing or is it just purely aggregating?

Luiz (00:49:22):
Well, so far the DAO has only bought for our collection that we see as permanence. I don't see why we would need to sell because either you, you don't believe in the asset anymore, or you need liquidity should buy more things. So you need to realize the fact that we have the governance tokens and the DAO holds governance tokens makes it be easier to just sell the governance tokens if you need liquidity and we still think it's super early, it's not something we, we see as a, a need to, to sell anything now. One thing that we did differently was for, so we had this idea of using Autoglyphs as a generator for like another kind of art. So in the same way we see CryptoPunks being used as a derivative. So we see like a lot of CryptoPunks derivatives in some sense, or interpretations, if you, if you prefer this words, we wanted to have something like this for Autoglyphs. And we partner with a few artists. One is Arihz who has two very famous projects Framergence and Pulsquares and Autoglyphs owners were able to whitelist their Autoglyphs and you in the minting process was able to choose what the Autoglyph you wanted and generate this very different artwork that was based on the underlying Autoglyph, but it's a different thing. And the way we did this, this was a co-lab between Fingerprints and the artists. So Fingerprints had a 10% of the minting proceeds received the minting proceeds from selling arts. From that sense, the artist has got 80% of the minting proceeds and the Autoglyphs owner whitelisted their Autoglyphs also received 10% of the minting proceeds. So that's something that is impossible to do in the traditional world, because you don't have it's, you cannot assign provenance in that way saying, oh, you can use my artwork to do this other artwork, and I'm going to receive a cut off that. So that was one experiment. We did. We want you to more like this. So that's also a possibility for the DAO to generate some kind of revenue by collaborating and selling arts.

Anna (00:51:48):
What happens if the, the things you own drop in value, do the tokens that you've issued also drop in value, does that change the market cap in a way of the governance?

Luiz (00:51:58):
Well, it really depends on how people are valuing the governance token. It's reasonable to understand that, to think of it as a connected to the net asset value of the collection, but also there's another component where, okay, there's the collection, there's the future collection that we can still collect. So there's like there's some curatorial premium, I would say associated to it. And the future of the possible cash flows that the DAO can generate. So it's expected. I like if the, if the NFT market just dropped 90%, I wouldn't expect the token should be trading as a, at the same price, but it's not like one-to-one. Yeah, because it's also important to remember there's no convertibility mechanism or redemption mechanism between the tokens. There are purely for governance.

Anna (00:52:52):
Way. It sounds like. So you're creating a collection. You don't really plan on selling it. So are you building a museum then? Like, is that what that is for them? Is it like, excuse the buzzword, but is it like the museum and the metaverse?

Luiz (00:53:06):
So, but every, everybody, everybody likes this. So it's like we are building like the new museum. So I'm I'm also a member at Pleasr with Tarun where we are building like the internet museum there. So I think like I don't like the museum kind of a connotation because you can have a museum. I can this new digital world without having any assets. Like you can just show, ask people for permission. And it can just like build an expo with like every single great collection don't have to own like a museum. We have some metaverse presence. So we bought some lands in cryptovoxels. We designed a building to do like a gallery, like a metaverse presence. But I don't think the concept of a museum really applies here. I think what we are going to see as some of these NFTs are going to start to have another dimension in DeFi. So we're going to see collateralization for some of these NFTs, some derivatives for these NFTs. I think there's like it's a huge design space that I think can be explored and having those assets is a way for you to basically buy a piece of a platform. If you see those assets, like they can be used elsewhere because it's, everything is composable. So we are like, you're basically buying a piece of a platform. So it's, it's a different thing I would say. And, and the other thing I would also add is one of the functions that these assets they fulfill is the fact that we are building a community around them. I see the same for Pleaser and Dog not Doge.

Tarun (00:54:58):
Well now it has a name, but is it after months of, of flailing, dog. Maybe we should explain what dog is.

Anna (00:55:09):
You guys are so much deeper in the NFT world

Tarun (00:55:11):
I am not for the record. I just, I'm just, I'm just around enough people who are. So, so basically PleasrDAO you know, we just started to kind of buy this art from Emily pplpleasr that was like, sort of the quintessential art of DeFi summer last summer. And then it kind of grew into kind of, are there similar time to Fingerprints.

Luiz (00:55:35):
It was, it was earlier there was a Pleasr was an inspiration for Fingerprints actually.

Tarun (00:55:41):
Yeah. But I will say, I feel like I was talking with you on Twitter around that time, like around, cause like I was in the first, like people who bought the first painting group and their first artwork group and Fingerprints was like within like two weeks or something. Like it was so close. Like I feel like, I feel like I, I DM'd you and you were like, Hey, I have this idea. So, so Pleasr, I was bought a bunch of pieces since then. And please around Fingerprints have kind of been the ones that I would say have like the largest kind of craziest collections, both in sort of more like culturally significant NFTs is like PleasrDAO. So that's why it's a little more like a museum versus kind of this really more conceptual and algorithmic art and Fingerprints and PleasrDAO bought the Doge meme for $4 million sometime earlier this year. So it's like the original Doge meme, and one of our members, Andy, who we've had on the show and we fractionalized the Doge and sold it. And it's now I guess a $500 million coin.

Anna (00:56:46):
So this is, this, the community has been built around this one image. Then the one NFT, this fractionalized.

Tarun (00:56:54):
Doge, the Doge fractionalized community actually exists. It's like 45,000 person discord, something like that.

Anna (00:57:00):
I actually, I want to talk about these communities because like, what are they, are they just like, there's a collection. And then people join a discord server. They get into these secret rooms if they own them or something like, like, I keep hearing about this around, like, I think someone got hacked. I think it was the, what is it? Bored Ape Yacht Club or something. Someone basically not hacked, but somebody kind of phished them and, and got them to like send over their private keys and they lost their NFTs. And it was in one of these community chats. So like, somehow they've been like fooled by someone, you know, pretending to be the founder or something like this. But I, that sort of made me realize that there's these community chats, like, what are people talking about? Where like, they, they join these groups and they just like, talk about price or like, what is it? What are these?

Tarun (00:57:48):
Yeah. I think one thing is there's no one size fits all answer. So this is the 2021 answer to the 2017 telegram group.

Anna (00:57:57):
But like, what do you mean? But like telegram groups built around what, like, usually they were built around maybe one blockchain or something like that, a token sale, but what are these communities like? Like what do they do?

Luiz (00:58:09):
So I think there's a couple of different cases here. Like for example, there are communities where you are discussing one particular NFT or like a bunch of like, for example, Art Blocks, which I mentioned before they have like multiple channels. Each one for one artists were people that liked the arts they discuss and they discuss a lot. Like, it's not something that it wouldn't be, you wouldn't expect. Okay. There's not much discussion. They can discuss price. They can discuss like details from the artwork. Oh, I found this like, look at this reference. Yeah. It's it's like, it becomes something like a group of friends, I would say.

Tarun (00:58:48):
Cool. Upcoming sales, upcoming pieces too.

Luiz (00:58:52):
Yes. Yes. So I've thought a lot about this, this idea of community, because well, Fingerprints itself is a community for us at Fingerprints and Pleasr. It's much clear because as we need to govern something like that is building collecting. So it needs like the discussions is like, okay, we, what should we buy? What should we do? Should we build? So it's not around a single NFT. So what called my attention to this was actually the first truly successful NFT photography collection, which is called Twin Flames by Justin Aversano. And he builds a community around photography around his collection, but around photography in general, that became the go-to place for photography. And what I realized is his collection is great. So he did this series because he has a unborn twin. And she, she, she died before, before being born and he wanted to honor his twin. So he took pictures of very like artistic pictures of twins around the world, but they're this hundred pictures and he launched, I think he launched in March, if I'm not mistaken, the initial launch price for these were, was like .55 eth. Now the floor price for Twin Flames, which is this collection is like 100 eth. So it's like it grown quite a lot, but he became the go-to place for photography. So in a sense, he created what he created there it's bigger than the collection itself. So I'm thinking a lot about this because I was thinking about the question of, okay, what exactly gives a photography value in this new paradigm here. And it's not only related to the art itself. Like it can be an interesting picture. It can be like like same image that touches you in some way. Like it really speaks to it can be very artistic. It can be like a famous photographer, but the value is very much related to the effect that can you build a community around that collection around that series? So this is something that photographers are just discovering as they enter this space. And it's something that I saw the opportunity of building another DAO around it. And it's the first time I actually speaking about this. I wrote some blog posts so far and I spoke privately in, in the Fingerprints discord, but there was one piece from like the most iconic piece from this collection of Justin's, that was fractionalized on Fractional as well. And me and one other Fingerprints' member who also like helped me with the financial side of it. We executed the buyouts of the, the fractions. We bought the piece from every single fraction. And the idea now is to refresh, analyze it, but use it as a governance token for this new photo DAO, which is called RAR our site, the file extension. And the idea is to help photographers getting into this space, not you'll have to build a community on their own. So we'll have this DAO. We'll help you onboard. In this space, we will collect your work. So they're risking completely like the, the onboarding risk or failure risk, and you'll have a community there. So like if you don't have to attend to the community and build something yourself, but also to the market itself, it's going to be a way to generate a signal of what is interesting to collect or not. The thing that is missing on photography that I saw elsewhere in generative art in, in other forms of art is this curation. So people are very confused. What should I be buying? Should I be buying like the most expensive thing? But so I want like the photographers themselves are going to be members and they are going to do the curation and to the market. We are going to see, okay, there's this organization that is putting skin in the game, collecting these pieces, and they have like does amazing artists that are the the curators. So it must have quality. This is a concept that is not possible at all in the traditional world. So it's I'm very excited to, to do something like this.

Tarun (01:03:32):
It's certainly less transparent in the traditional world. I sure it, it sort of happens I guess, at like, you know, the Barnes Foundation or something, but like, you know, it's not like anyone who really knows what's happening.

Luiz (01:03:44):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and transparency is also an issue that we have in DAOs, because if you're fully transparent, like you run the risk of being front-run, people are going to buy the stuff before you buy. So you'll have to keep part of the process, not fully transparent, but at least, you know, the rules of the game in a relatively clear way, I'd say it seems like a better process than the more traditional world.

Anna (01:04:15):
Who decides what you buy?

Luiz (01:04:17):
On Fingerprints will have a curation committee. So it, generally people start talking about something. We don't rush to buy anything because it like the idea is to be very focused. So we take our time, but people discussing the curation channel in general and the curation committee digs deeper. And we have in the curation committee artists like DEAFBEEF for example, he's in the curation committee. We have Sam Spike, which is a traditional curator worked at MET, worked at Frieze, Sotheby's. And they like the, the like check the smart contract. So there's a more a deeper process and see if it fits the collection. So like the creation committee was elected and it's expanded from time to time.

Anna (01:05:06):
How many people is it currently?

Luiz (01:05:08):
The creation committee has six people, if I'm not mistaken,

Anna (01:05:13):
Ok small, that makes sense.

Luiz (01:05:14):
But now we are actually experimenting is going to almost triple because the DAO has grown quite a lot as well. And we have to, it, it needs to be in a size that there's always someone online to be part of the committee. And also because right now we are getting to a point where we need to be more transparent about the stuff we didn't collect. So we have to say to people because people know, okay, that's what we decided to collect and that's great, but why didn't we collect this, this, this, and like the list just keeps growing and we have to reports, okay. This was looked into by the duration committee. We think it's not fitting to our thesis, or we cannot really be able to important enough collection of this artist. So it doesn't make sense to, to add to our collection. So you have to report back to the community as the community grows.

Anna (01:06:10):
Got it Cool.

Tarun (01:06:12):
And I would say one, one thing regarding kind of like transparency, I think for, for, for Pleasr, you know, I guess I'm in the, like the council sort of handle sort of the operations type of stuff, but they, you know, the way it works there, just to give a little bit of contrast and Luiz seeing this is actually like the entire DAO votes on every purchase. Which is, you know, a little bit like chaos in a lot of ways. Definitely a lot of work, but, but, you know, Pleasr also has like three full-time people now. So it's like, that's the DAO pays. So it is actually like their job of managing this votes, but for awhile it was quite a bit more chaotic. And I think we have some pieces coming out soon that, you know, to Luiz's point, you can't totally be fully transparent about, but, you know, once things are set up, you know, you kind of can the DAO votes on it.

Luiz (01:07:06):
Yeah. I think the, seeing the two processes being part of two, it's interesting because I think it works like this well for Pleasr, for two reasons. First it's a smaller group. Fingerprints has like over 200 members. Pleasr has like 50 or 60. But also I think the main point is most of the stuff we've collected on Fingerprints was in the market and was part of a series. So if we show the intention of buying, you can change the price immediately because like, in that sense, it's like a coin. Like everybody can't could go to open standby in front of us for Pleasr, like something like an auction or like anything that is very hard. Most of the, the things Pleasr decided to, to buy like auctions and things like that. It's very hard for a single member to go and front-run. So it wasn't really an issue in this, this, this case. I think both of us were going to, to face challenges in the future because of these different models. But I think they work I think like for a Pleasr, this model works very nicely.

Tarun (01:08:18):
One thing to also point out is, you know, in the normal art world, someone who is a cure on the curation of one sort of museum or foundation is very competitive with someone else who's on the, in curation of another foundation or museum. But if you know this Luiz and I are both in both DAOs which, you know, I think is like a Testament to how diff what some of the differences culturally in generative and digital art are versus like TradFi art. Sorry, I'm just like, anytime I say traditional now I just say TradFi, but I really mean

Anna (01:08:54):
Trad art, trad art. Nice. So, Luiz, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing with us the story of FingerprintsDAO where you're at, where you're going, some of the new ideas coming out. And thanks for answering some of my kind of, I know quite basic questions about NFTs, but it's always fun to explore this space. So yeah. Thanks for coming on the show.

Luiz (01:09:23):
Yeah, no, thanks for having me. It's a, it's a very deep rabbit hole. It's very hard show. Look back at everything in one episode. But I think like for people wanting to learn more, just follow the people in the, in the space, try to go deeper, go to the discord. It can be a little bit chaotic, but it's a great way to learn. And people are very kind, I would say, like they're very helpful. They try to onboard people in the best way possible. So just trying to do a little bit more to dig a little deeper, try joining and joining a DAO like learning by doing is the best way to do in this space.

Anna (01:10:00):
Cool. Tarun, thanks for bringing us together for this episode too.

Tarun (01:10:05):
Yeah. Thanks. I mean, my hope with this episode has been sort of some of the NFT things in general is, you know, to present to the kind of technical audience of this podcast, some of the cool technical things at the edge of, of art and crypto, my hope is that someone who's listening to this podcast goes out and is a developer and says, Hey, look, I have this idea for this crazy generative art. And because they heard of it here, they went in and did it because I think there are a lot of developers who don't realize how, how much of a technical challenge, some of the generative art on the edges. And it could actually be super interesting to them.

Anna (01:10:41):
And my ultimate wish is that we someday actually figure out a way to incorporate zero-knowledge proofs into this entire thing. And I have actually a few ideas that I'm going to want to share with you Tarun when I'm in New York later, this, this year, and brainstorm with some of your NFT people. Maybe I can share that with you too Luiz, but yeah, this, this idea of like adding cryptography somewhere in there could be pretty cool.

Tarun (01:11:06):
It's definitely possible. I think the hard part is actually getting the aesthetic narrative, correct. Which is like one of the reasons, well, you know, outside of being too busy, one of the reasons I don't like make any art anymore, is that like, I just don't like have a particularly strong thing that I would say concept that I like other than like rehashing my old concepts with, you know, maybe one, maybe Luiz just one day, one day that will be the thing we work on together.

Anna (01:11:34):
Cool. All right. Thank you to the podcast, editor Henrik, thank you to the podcast producer, Tanya, and to our listeners. Thanks for listening.