Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Once you have been exposed to good design, you see your development work shine so much more that you become addicted to good design or even more if you understand the process. Eric Anderson: This is Contributor, a podcast telling the stories behind the best open source projects and the communities that make them. I'm Eric Anderson. Welcome everyone to our latest episode of Contributor. I'm joined today with Pablo Ruiz-Muzquiz who is one of the creators of two projects we're going to talk about, that both roll up under the banner of Kaleidos, that is Penpot and Taiga, did I say it correct, Pablo? Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Taiga. Eric Anderson: Taiga. Thank you. Pablo, tell us just briefly about yourself and Kaleidos because I think those are necessary context for the discussions on the two projects. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Sure. Well, my academic background is in science engineering, so physics and computer science. You could say it's some classical nerdy type of person, science fiction, fantasy reader, role playing games, traditional lottery, all that stuff. But when it comes to my professional career, what I always wanted to do is to make sure that I was involved in positive impact of technology and society, like trying to make sure my talent was put to good use. And for that over a number of years, I was able to co-found with 13 other people in 2011, Kaleidos, this company born out of privilege, should I say? Because we knew even in those days here in Spain, where we had this financial crisis, we were sure we could experiment with a new type of company. And so we decided to say bye-bye to our jobs and create this company Kaleidos, and this company is actually called Kaleidos Open Source. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: So by the name, you already know one of the major topics or drivers of our existence. And it was pretty simple, although it get complex over time like now it's quite complex as you'd see. We decided to do two things at the same time, one, we would actually develop technology for partners of the startups or multinational big projects for them, and just for a fee, we do that. And with the money that we took from our clients, we would invest in our own open source products. Today, we only do the latter. Our products grew in quality so much that we transitioned, well, actually during another crisis, which is the one we are still living in, the pandemic, and we made the full transition from services, third party consultancy business to just open source products. Now, one thing that is relevant here is that Kaleidos is very different now than when we were founded 10 years ago. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: At the time we were all backend developers, super nerdy, basically all white male, it was the typical bunch of people you would expect from a very technical small company. And at some point we decided that in order for us to be able to tackle big challenges for our clients, just for our clients, we would need to accept design. User experience, user interface and all that to have everything in-house, because we wanted to go for the super major projects and it didn't really work out well if we partner with companies that would do design and we do the code. It was okay for small projects, a three month projects, but for two year projects that didn't work. We felt we didn't have the control over the project. It's too important for us not to have that in house. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: I have to be honest here. I was terrified that we did that because when you are very much into open source and technology, and you say, let's get designers into your company, into your culture, into your processes, we felt there would be some disconnection. There could be dysfunctional conversations, we would be two different worlds in the same place. But this is not a cultural tale, I tell people we made the right move. Thanks to that, we are now where we are at. We became obsessed about processes and quality so much that we created Taiga, one of the project dimension, which is an open source project management platform. It's basically for IL teams. And we created that platform so that our designers and our developers could have this joy of managing projects together in just one tool. Because designers wouldn't typically be welcome to use those tools, they would just use their own tools and all the project management and the issue management and all that would be dealt with using other tools that were just for tech people. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: I'm sure you know this, all these tools about project management, just for the engineers. And that was great, and we released Taiga for the public and it has been very successful since then. And a few years ago we had this crisis. It was not unexpected, I saw it coming, where designers at Kaleidos said, look, we do quality projects, we do really sustainable development, good design, good technology, the agile methodology, how lean we are, the culture fit is amazing. But to be honest, we designers here at Kaleidos, we are not first class citizens in open source. You developers enjoy total freedom. You get to pick any framework, any database, any operating system, any editor, anything, and you can feel productive. You can feel like your talent is put to the maximum, you are not hindered by the tools. While we designers, whether it's UX or UI or any type of this design, have to deal with opensource software. Which we believe in, we are pro opensource, there's no question about that, but we have to fix this. Eric Anderson: And Pablo, maybe to understand this crisis, we might have to understand a bit of the Kaleidos culture where I feel like if I understand correctly, you are attempting to only use opensource software, because there's a toolkit out there that the designers might feel comfortable in, but it's not open source, is that right? Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: No. And when we had those job applications, you went to kaleidos.net and looked for jobs and we would say, we want UX, we want designers and these were the designers, whatever. And one red lines, one of the mandatory items was that either you already use open source design software or you're really willing to do that, you know what's at stake? And of course we got a lot people saying yes, yes, but it was not genuine. It was not truly honest. Fortunately, we hired the ones that were really into this or got it shortly afterwards. So we actually had a committee that would address any request from anyone in the company to make an exception to the rule of open source. And this committee would have some criteria and depending on the score of the overall criteria, it would say okay or not okay. So it goes from Gmail to video conferencing systems, to anecdotal tools that you use every day. Eric Anderson: As aside, when I worked at Google, we had a similar committee, but it was for using non Google products. If you wanted Microsoft Excel, you had to go talk to several people and get permission because Google sheets should have been your default. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: At some point, I think we'll release these committee criteria, not for any specific example, but one of the items there in the checklist was happiness that would bring to the person. How much impactful that would be and also if that would mean other people must use that software too. So the indirect impact on other person's choices. So we got the request for Figma, of course. Because it was obviously the no brainer choice, the leader, it was on the browser real time collaboration, super fast, trendy, of course. Eric Anderson: Yeah. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And the committee took that, I remember that meeting exactly, who was there, the position of everyone and in the room, the light in that afternoon in the meeting room and the result was yes, we will make the exception, because the checklist just outputs, I don't know. Okay. But at the same time we decided that, that would be a temporary solution. It had to be. It was too important for us to be using a design tool where you conceptualize, you have this inception of ideas, you design your prototype, it's part of the critical path of any technological advancement that you output. It was not right to just concede forever. So the next pie week, which is our personal innovation week, we have one everyone every six months where we just stop doing what we do and concentrate on just innovation pet projects, either on yourself or with some of the team members, or whatever, Penpot was born. Eric Anderson: Got it. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And if you think about it, how many design and prototyping tools do people know? Because if you go back to the Taiga example, how many project management platforms people know? I think a dozen easily come to mind, there are many. Different aspects, different angles, you get the Trello, end of a spectrum or the Jira end of the spectrum and then thousands of product management platforms. But design and prototyping tools, not many, I mean three, four, five perhaps, and that's it. And there's a reason for that, and we knew that it was a reason for that. And it's so challenging, it's very tough to develop such a tool. It conceptually very tough, very challenging to design a tool that allows other people to design other tools. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: So in a way you have to think that you're creating a tool that should be able to create tools Penpot which are in itself challenging. So you have to think about the user, which is a designer, a lot, how they think. Of course, we get inspiration from other tools already in the market, but still you don't want to clone anything. You want to say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do the best one. And so you want to be at the vanguards really? You don't want to do any open source copy of anything. I mean, Taiga is an open source copy of anything. It has its own personality so does Penpot. The other reason why you don't get many tools like this it's because technologically it's a nightmare. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: It's really mathematical. The complexity in terms of math of performance is really tough, particularly if you do it on a web. So yeah, almost now we don't use Figma. We are almost 100% migrated just because we have some legacy design on Figma, Penpot designs itself, so Penpot is used to evolve itself. That was achieved months ago. We are happy that we had that crisis, because honestly I thought that other people would actually develop something like Penpot, I didn't think Kaleidos would do it. I always thought, well, this eventually will be sorted out. It's about time. I thought that in 10 years ago, five years ago, and at some point it was like, oh, so it's us. Well, let's do this. And that's why we are just focused now on Taiga and Penpot, because you have so much bandwidth at the end of the day and you have to focus on your very successful products because there's reality, we are getting a lot of momentum, we are very excited about how people are looking at those two products and started to match them, to put them together and understand that there is overarching process. Eric Anderson: Pablo, now that we understand where they came from, maybe you can give us a quick 30 second definition on the two projects, Taiga and Penpot. And then afterward, I'll ask you a little bit about why people choose Taiga and Penpot and what they offer. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Yeah, absolutely. So Taiga is a project management platform meant for agile teams where they know they're agile or whether they want to be agile. It's very flexible, intuitive, and you can do KanBan, scrum Eastern management at payX week key is very intuitive, very user friendly. And that's why we created it to make sure that designers and all stakeholders would feel that they could actually enjoy a project management tool. You can go to Taiga.IO, either download it, have it on premise, or use our SaaS. And Penpot is a design on prototyping tool for designers that is meant to welcome developers, it's like the other way around, it's quite symmetrical here. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And it's meant to make sure that designers enjoy all the benefits of designing directly code. So Penpot is just based on SVG. So it's important that designers understand that they are no coders, somehow they're coders developers are meant to enjoy Penpot for the first time, because they're welcoming to the design process, also for the first time, like first class citizens, same way designers felt with agile developers are now feeling with design process. And it's web based, but you can also download it and host your own Penpot server, which is unique. There's nothing like this in the world, it's the first time you can actually add the last missing item in your developer pipeline, which is the design tool. Eric Anderson: There's a lot you've surfaced there that we need to unpack, maybe to just highlight a couple of those things. So you mentioned that Taiga is a project management tool, which has historically been a developer centric place and you're making it friendly to designers, you're inviting them in. And the opposite, but same, is true for Penpot, historically the design tools have been designer centric place and you're inviting developers in, and you're also highlighting that there's two different methodologies at work here that's the agile world and the design process world, and you're saying that these tools help highlight how you can bring them in harmony or you can have single process? Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Yes, actually. I mean, I loved it how you put it. I said at Kaleidos, we were so obsessed about the quality of the process. So we got the quality of the output, like our development, that we knew that we needed to have designers on board in the agile process. We needed them to understand that it was not okay to try to design everything from scratch, end it there, and then just give it to the developer and just wait till it's done and then just try out loud. Because the end result is not useful, it's not interesting, and it doesn't have anything to do with the original design. So that was very tough, designers at the time, had a hard time understanding and accepting that they needed to be part of the agile process. They thought they could waterfall their own thing, and then you do the agile. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: So in order for us to convince, at least our designers, that it was a good idea to have them in one team, sharing the conversation, everyone peer to peer, we created Taiga so that you could feel that it was also for you designer. The vocabulary, the things that it's meant to solve is really interesting for you. So there's a lot of things in Taiga that are meant to make sure that not only designers, but particularly designers feel like that tool, they can use, they can report it, they can enjoy, they can make progress, et cetera. Now, the other process is the design process. And I'm sure you know this, more and more these days, the ratio between designers and developers has come from, I think one designer per 15 developers to one designer per seven or eight developers. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: That is good news. That means that design is being rewarded with more resources, more importance, everything. There's more science to design nowadays, so there's some things that they have borrowed from engineering, just the one they need or the ones they had and they can be polished through some learnings from engineering. And it's not the official name, but we talk about the design process. The design process not this kind of thing that only design gurus understand is silos where they have these conversations and they come down and say, we have decided this, design will be blue. There's this lot of research, validation, hypotheses, interviews, constructs, trial and error, to come to something that means blue. Now, why have developers out of the loop where they can actually bring and understand what's going on and at an early stage participate, because at the team level, there is no such difference. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: You have your dailies, people trying to create a great product. It's when you go for the tools or certain processes that you split up artificially, the team. And so when we created Penpot, we knew that it wasn't just like the little tool that designers enjoy, so they're happy and we don't have to use Figma anymore. We said, look, Figma did a great job, bring in designers together to have these collaboration thing before people said designers like to work alone. Well, so now that's what designers really want to work with all the designers at the same canvas. And we said, okay, what if we don't stop there? What if we say designers would like to work with developers also, bring developers to their arena. And that's why Penpot has all these feedback loop, it's outputting SVG, the infrastructure, everything is meant for developers to be part of that, the way you manage projects, et etcetera. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: So we are happy to see that what we have created Taiga and Penpot reflect Kaleidos ethos, how we understand teams and how we understand design and code. We believe this is my bet, I'm not Precog or anything, but I think that this decade is going to prove that design and code can do greater things, either work together, but really work together. And that won't happen if we don't have a design tool that is meant to open up the design process to developers. Eric Anderson: I like about what you're saying is that it would address some of the biggest frustrations I've had in the software development process, where, as a design effort, we arrive at some inclusions through, as you mentioned, the science of design, the research, the investigation, the trial and error. And then you hand these off to developers and there's this disconnect. You gave the example blue, but there's more to it certainly. And you say, well, blue's fine, but blue's a little tricky and it doesn't fit with that other thing we did, and they have their own opinions because they're intelligent people and all they get is blue. And so they're saying, well, it should be more like blueish considering these other factors. And then there's this [inaudible 00:20:21] where designers are like, no, there was a reason we wanted blue. And so then you end up regurgitating the whole design process or attempting to, in order to bring harmony to the effort. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: I'll give you an example. Eric Anderson: Yeah. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And I think this will resonate with a lot of people listening. It's so common to have designers listening to developers arguing about infrastructure, architecture, they're sitting there and they're like, oh, they're doing their tech stuff, this tech talk, about why this frame work or whether it's in a restful API or we're going to photograph QL. Developers are used to having these open conversations, it's natural for them. And designers used to just be there, not understanding a word, and just when the meeting is over, they say, okay, bye-bye, and they feel like they wasted an hour. That doesn't happen the other way. I mean, you don't see developers sitting an hour long just where designers are commenting on why the prototype is like this or that. Have you ever seen that? Nobody witnessed that. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Why? Because it's disconnected, but there is this legacy that says it's okay to have to go with the tech people, having the chat about their stuff. Well, the design process will be that equivalent and has been like isolated, we think it's very sad. And when you open up that conversation, the smart people, I can tell you people, like you said, developers they think, [inaudible 00:21:56] if they understand why it's blue or even bluish, they can have some feedback. Early on, they can actually interpret that or give some feedback or just comments, or just shut up because they know there's nothing they can add to the thing. So let's pretend everyone's intelligent. Let's pretend everyone's more intelligent of the average in a team, ideally what you would like the team to behave like. And it's just consenting adults, sharing their process and their thought processes and their tools. Eric Anderson: And then you mentioned the ratio is changing, which- Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Is changing rapidly. Eric Anderson: ... at some point, I feel like it probably tips where historically design has been seen as essential resource. And increasingly it's an embedded one designer is assigned to a team and lives with a team. But if it gets as low as three to one, and they're part of the team, I don't know, the centrality is lost or at least it's subordinate to the product team, I imagine. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: I mean, the ratio between front end developers and backend developers as a whole changed. So when you think about DevOps or infrastructure or things like that, that has also changed. 10 years ago, Kaleidos was, I don't know, let's say 10 back ends and two front ends. And now it's like 15 full stack and just pure back ends, perhaps only two people left and the rest is front end, and then plenty of designers. So it's hard for a developer to understand that there is so much value in just accepting what a designer has to say, because you come from a place where you rule is your realm technology. Fortunately, we had this transition from backend to front end. So already a lot of people understood that there can be changes and they're okay, you might not like them or not hear them but there are changes. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: So nowadays I think once you have been exposed to good design, you see your development work shine so much more, that you become addicted to good design. Much more, or even more, if you understand the process, and you can participate and feel like you co-own it. That has allowed Kaleidos to tackle bigger challenges, not for ourselves, perhaps for our clients, bigger projects, more challenging projects, things that I wouldn't thought we could actually develop that are massive. And perhaps that's why we decided that we could actually do something like Penpot. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Taiga is not so much challenging in terms of technology. It's about how to convey agile processes in a very flexible way, so it's applicable to many different teams. That is a challenge. I get it, I feel it. But Penpot has these challenges that I mentioned, and in terms of technology, you have to be very sure and a developer these days, if they are invited to develop something like Penpot they would not believe they could do it unless they're surrounded by good designers and good design. And because we knew we had it, we had experience firsthand. We accepted the challenge. We said, let's do this. Let's become the fourth or the fifth tool in the market. The market is huge, but the number of tools is small. Eric Anderson: Well, in some ways it's generational, not actually generational, but we generally standardize on a tool and we've standardized from one to the other in sequence to some degree. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And designers have been used to their own software, their very private tool that they're using. And the only thing we've seen is just that evolving into the internet or the browser, but not much change it's quite slow. But I think Penpot is a good example that this is going to change fist. I don't think Penpot is going to be the only design and prototype tool, like really massive because it's not a plugging or a simple tool, it's really like a platform, that we're going to get in this decade. I think we are opening up this market, if I can call that, and we'll see more and more tools, not just becoming from the no code realm, but from the pure design and prototype perspective and the ones that do not address the developer opportunity, I don't think they're going to get momentum because it's going to just feel like old style shiny, but old style designers tool. Eric Anderson: Great. I want to touch on one thing before we go onto a final topic, and you mentioned SVG support was special in Penpot. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: It is. Eric Anderson: Explain that for me, it sounds like SVG makes you more native to what you're actually producing. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Yes. This is one of the biggest challenges for us, the standard to technology on web and mobile for visuals is SVG. I mean, you get roster, you get JPEG and PNG. But really when you actually want to do some great stuff that is responsive and that can scale up multi device, and you can manipulate that through CSAs and all that, you have to use SVG. And that's an open standard for vector graphics. Now, the rest of the tools, the proprietary tools, make sure they stick to their own proper format. But you don't deploy a Figma file, the browsers don't read that or Adobe thing, it doesn't work like that. So they encapsulate all the information into those formats. And then you have to export it to SVG in order to make use of it. Who by the way, makes use of it? Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Developers, of course, those are the ones that are going to make use of it. So there's this translation between the design and the output. And we decided why do that when you have SVG? Let's make sure that Penpot natively goes for SVG, and so there's no translation. What you see is what you code. So at any given time, you can just click on any item or canvas or component or whatever, and you go to the tab and you get the CSS or the SVG representation. Now the CSS, it is our representation in terms of a translation, but the SVG is actually what the browser is producing because there's no difference, that means that the designer knows for sure that what they're designing is actually code. And that means that they contrast the process where the developer can take that and use it as it is. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And of course, that openness app possibilities of integrating Penpot with code tools or development tools or integration tools where as long as everyone is using SVG, the source of truth could be Azure. So Penpot could actually be outputting something that is being fed by the process elsewhere that is using SVG. So you could actually put Penpot and your GI repository working together and changing a good file could actually mean Penpot now outputs red instead of blue. And what is more exciting is that the designer for the first time could be part of the development process, meaning that they could actually be able to do commit using Penpot. Because that could trigger a comment to a repo and that could trigger continuous deployment process. And that could mean a new lease on production. And I think if the more designers are part of that, it's just opens up more possibilities and opportunities for everyone in the technology world. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And so we are creating shortcuts between design and code, but sometimes I don't know if we are actually making design closer to code or code to design, sometimes depending on how you see it at the end of the day, they're just closer. One way or the other, they are understanding better each other. And at the end of the day, this is teams, this is people working together. So SVG is critical for us, and it has its own challenges, but we were able to sort them out last year with text manipulation. Eric Anderson: Okay. The other topic I wanted to mention was stepping away from these specific projects and just more conceptually to the idea of open source and user applications. You mentioned at the beginning that Kaleidos was mostly focused on infrastructure at the beginning, and that's where open source has seen a lot of success. And you feel this inevitable poll that it needs to come into end user applications, I'm excited about that future. Maybe tell us a little bit more about that. I mentioned to you at the beginning before the show started that there are a few examples of where this has happened and in design a blender being one, when a giant open source community is producing the preeminent 3D rendering projects. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Yeah. I mean, these days they're the standard for 3D modeling and animation. I was there back then in 2004, I think, 2003, but in some money when they crowd founded, it was not called crowd funding at the time. But they needed $1 million to get the code and create the blender foundation. And it was a lot of money, $1 million, but [inaudible 00:31:52] raise was like asking for money and I was using blender was proprietary, it run on Linux. I've been using Linux since 1997 and I loved that because it could do my physics, 3D modeling, all the algorithms and computational physics on blender using Python. So I was super excited, but it was proprietary. And then they went open source, they created foundation, and now they're leading the 3D world. And they have a great community. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And I think a lot of lessons to be learned from that. But I think, yes, we've got open source and infrastructure, develop a tool's framework basis, all that, and it's fine. I come from that world, cryptography network security, all that stuff. It's good because in a way you, the infrastructure runs on your software. So you can always say you own the world somehow. But then you see all these amazing end user applications that enable people to use technology, not you, but just people that are not developers. And I feel sad, there's a lot of potentials that is not there. And other people are just building on top of your open source over and developing those tools. So it's like, oh, this is dirty actually, this is not fair. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: The problem is that we build so much momentum around these type of pieces of software that the contributors where just that type of people. So you could not escape that, it's like you have your black hole, you cannot escape the fact that you are where you are. And it took us some time to start developing things that are not framework databases on network stats that are just professional end user tools, not meant for developers where the user and the developer is not the same person. The audience shifts. And we actually experimented that with Taiga, a lot of people went to Taiga not because it was open source, but because it was so pretty. I mean, that was intended, we wanted designers to actually enjoy [inaudible 00:34:03] manifest platform, so we made sure it was like super slick UI. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: And was always saying, I don't care if it's open source or not. It's so good UI, I like it so much. But then what happens is that the type of contributions you get start to differ from the typical developer's contributions. You start to get contributions terms of content in terms of conversations about the themes that are relevant and also about the design and the features. With Penpot, that actually is even more so, because we need to make sure that we have contributors contributing visual features like things that you can use, not just improve some performance or not just translating Penpot to 25 languages or things like that. So I think this is a trend, and now that it's set up, it's not going to change. We can help accelerate it or not, but this is going to happen anyway. There is also a generational shift for designers. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Designers are no more aware of what it's at stake. They are more valuable now, designers understand they're in the spotlight and they get to make choices now. They understand that what do or the tools they use matter more than what they thought in the past. So a lot of people ask us, do designers care about open source? And in particular, do designers care about open source design tool? And what we are seeing is that they care a lot about that. They are intelligent people at the end of the day, they might choose a proprietary tool, but they understand they're making a choice and that has consequences. This is the adventure we are in now, but we'll see more progress about this, I think, and using the web technology, I think, so it's multi-platform. Eric Anderson: Awesome. Pablo, maybe just to instruct any of those that have been excited by this discussion, where can they engage with the community? Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Well, I think, if you're interested in agile methodology, nice tools for the whole team to feel like connected with the work and processes and all that, you just go to Taiga.IO and you'll see there's resource space. You can find how to contribute, how to deploy it, use it, extend it, integrate it, do whatever you want and you'll just simply enjoy it. If you are really passionate about design either because you're a front end developer that has some interest in design or because you're actually a designer, I suggest you go to Penpot.app. And again, there's a contribution guide there, you have all the typical user guide, but also the contribution guide, the developers guide. So you can hostage yourself, develop and do some nice stuff. Now, I have to say that if you want to go into the code and develop something, it's much easier, if you go for Taiga, it's quite standard Python, Django, Angular, stack, whereas Penpot is using closure and closure script, just because a functional programing language makes so much sense for a vector graphic tool in terms of perform and reliability. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: So, there's always beginner friendly things that you can do, but there's a difference between both projects in terms of new stuff that you can develop yourself. And you're very welcome, you'll see also resources, channels, mailing lists, forums. We're going to set up community space very soon for Penpot, so watch out for that. But most importantly, just give it a try. They're very different tools, but they're meant for the same people. The audience is mostly the same teams. Eric Anderson: Fantastic. Pablo this has been super exciting, because I resonate with a lot of this. We have a little thesis here at scale we're operating on where we see design becoming part of the software development life cycle. And I don't know if I've found anything that quite encapsulates that promise as well as the work you're doing. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: If you find something like that, please do tell me because it's going to be difficult, but we need to help each other. If we find all the projects doing the same. For a decade, we've been doing all the Cloud thing, all the infrastructure as commodity, private Cloud infrastructure service, all that. Okay, great. Now please, let's move on to design like the older way, it's like going to the older end of the spectrum, but it's about time. Eric Anderson: Certainly. Thanks for coming on the show. Pablo Ruiz-Múzquiz: Thank you, Eric. Eric Anderson: You can find today's show notes and past episodes @contributor.fyi until next time. I'm Eric Anderson and this has been Contributor.