EPISODE 75

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:05] MBH: Thanks for joining us at Keys for SLPs, opening new doors for speech-language pathologists to better serve clients throughout the lifespan, a weekly audio course and podcast from SpeechTherapyPD.com. I'm your host, Mary Beth Hines, a curious SLP who embraces lifelong learning. Keys for SLPs brings you experts in the field of speech-language pathology, as well as collaborative professionals, patients, and caregivers to discuss therapy strategies, research, challenges, triumphs, and career opportunities. Engage with a range of practitioners from young innovators to pioneers in the field as we discuss a variety of topics to help the inspired clinician thrive.

Each episode of Keys for SLPs has an accompanying audio course on SpeechTherapyPD.com, available for 0.1 ASHA CEUs. We are offering an audio course subscription, special coupon code to listeners of this podcast. Type the word KEYS for $20 off. With hundreds of audio courses on demand and new courses released weekly, it's only $59 per year with the code word KEYS. Visit SpeechTherapyPD.com and start earning ASHA CEUs today.

[EPISODE]

[0:01:24] MBH: Welcome to this episode of Keys for SLPs: Keys to Neurodiversity Affirming Dynamic Assessment Strategies for SLPs. I'm Mary Beth Hines. Here are the financial and non-financial disclosures. I am the host of Keys for SLPs, and receive compensation from SpeechTherapyPD.com. I have no non-financial disclosures. Chris Wenger is the owner of Speech Dude, and receives compensation for his course. He receives royalties from publishing a social-emotional learning assessment. He receives an honorarium for this presentation from SpeechTherapyPD.com. Chris' non-financial disclosure is that he is the co-chair of the West End Special Ed Local Plan Act for Chaffey Joint Union High School District.

Our learning objectives for today are; one, to identify three core concepts of neurodiversity; two, explain why it is important to identify and address bias in standardized assessment tools; three, apply three strength-based dynamic assessment strategies with a holistic approach. 

Now, we welcome our guest today, Chris Wenger, CCC, SLP. Chris is an enthusiastic, school-based SLP and creator of the Dynamic Assessment of Social-Emotional Learning. He is an internationally acclaimed presenter who loves to share the most current trends to help older autistic students, a prominent thought leader in the field of speech pathology, and known on social media as the Speech Dude. Chris motivates and entertains fellow educators and clinicians through his humorous and inspiring posts and videos. We are so happy to have you here on our 75th episode, which is a big milestone for us, of Keys for SLPs. I have to say, I'm thrilled to have you as a guest.

Earlier in my life, I had a different career, and I was in sales. I actually sold beer and had to learn a lot about sales. That skill came in well this time because it was almost two years ago that I first asked if you would like to be on Keys for SLPs. You never told me no, but it was just hard to coordinate our schedules. I wasn't going to give up, because I remember, almost two years ago, I was watching you on a webinar. I was in my kitchen with three or four kids, and I was like, "Oh my gosh. Guys, come look at this guy. This dude is the Speech Dude."

At that time, you were showing a video of a student who was, I mean, the definition of bored. You started to play some music, you started to do some other things to engage him, and he got up and started dancing. I was like, "This guy knows what he's doing." It was so fun to watch, and so fun to watch you, so I really appreciate you hanging in there and making this work.

[0:04:24] CW: I really appreciate it. That was a great introduction. I just need to bring you around like some of these parties I go to so you can introduce me. That would be fantastic. I have been on the receiving end of buying beer. So you and I have a thing here.

[0:04:39] MBH: Yes.

[0:04:42] CW: I didn't know that was your background. I'm glad you brought that up, and that's a great memory there. Because for as long as I've been a presenter, I always talk about, especially during that moment that you were talking about the student who was not fully engaged, disengaged, and then being able to spark that energy. Then I always follow it up with like, okay, so here's what we know about the student, that they like music. Specifically with that student, he likes ACDC, he likes playing the bass, he likes going for walks outside, he likes talking to other people about the things that he likes to talk about, which is rock music. But I never talked about like the things he couldn't do, and that's really the foundation of everything.

Even our conversation today is, let's look at the strengths, let's look at what the things our kids can do. And then let's build from there, let's come at it with a strengths-based approach. That's always been my mindset. I've been speaking for 15 years, and this has always been the direction. Because to change behavior, and to help people, we have to look at what they can do. IEP, which is a document that is Ð what students with disabilities are on in the school setting. It's a 13-page document that's all deficit-based. It just basically paints a picture of what the kids can't do. 

There's one paragraph on the Present Levels page of this entire document that says, "What are the student's interests?" and that's about it. Really, what we, and I'm trying to do, and many other people were trying to do is flip the script, and look at people, and shift a mindset of how can we help the clients and students that we work with. So that we're not viewing them, and pathologizing them, and looking at people as a disorder, but rather than embracing who they are, and guiding them, to give them the support that they truly need. That's a great way to start this off because this is going to be the recurring theme as we go through.

[0:06:40] MBH: When you embrace who they are, they're going to be more engaged, and they're going to have more fun, and you're going to have more fun, and you're going to feed off of each other with that positive energy. That's great to see.

[0:06:53] CW: There is research that states that the language we use in our reports, and in our meetings, whether youÕre medical, private practice, schools, that language will directly impact the child-parent relationship. So if we're using language that is framed to constantly talk about kids through a deficit-based lens, nobody wins. I can't tell you that making this shift with language, and reports, and guiding the conversations to help families is life-changing because you'll get tears of joy and happiness at these meetings from parents saying, "You know what? You described my child, and it's just a great feeling when you hear the good things that are happening."

[0:07:41] MBH: We're both parents, so no matter what's going on with your child, you always want to hear the good things, and you want to hear how other people perceive them positively.

[0:07:52] CW: Honestly, that's it. I am a dad of four boys. It's like, "I want to hear what's working out well." I understand my kids have some challenges, so let's figure out how to make those challenges less challenging. But parents, they don't want to go to these meetings and hear constantly, "Your child's in the severe range or the far below average range." They want to hear, "Your child is doing great here, here, and here, and here are some things that they might be struggling in. So let's come up with some ideas so we can make their lives and prioritize their wellbeing." Really, that's what we want, as parents. 

[0:08:25] MBH: Exactly.

[0:08:25] CW: It all starts actually with the assessments and how we pull up the information. So perfect topic, right?

[0:08:32] MBH: Perfect topic. All right. Before we dive into that, can you tell us a little bit Ð everyone knows you're the Speech Dude. But I just learned earlier that you actually had a background in special education. Can you tell us a little bit about how you became the Speech Dude, and then eventually specialized in working with older students who are neurodiverse?

[0:08:52] CW: My dad and my mom, actually, my parents were been in education forever. My dad taught physical education, and he worked with a collaborative class in an adaptive PE class. That kind of shapes a little bit of who I am today, because in high school, I played baseball growing up, so I was the assistant coach, he was the varsity coach. I got to be on a different campus after school, and seeing him coach other students, and guiding. Then, when I graduated high school, I was a substitute teacher. I would sub at the high school that he taught at, and he would work with the students with disabilities. That was really something that I wanted to pursue. 

He said, "Hey, Chris. You know what? The kindest person in the room will win the race. That's how life works. That's how you live your life. Kindest person in the room. The person who helps others wins the race." He's always had this Ð

[0:09:54] MBH: Love that.

[0:09:55] CW: Yeah, it's always like this thing, this motto for me that you will live a purposeful and meaningful life by serving others and you help others. That in turns is a byproduct of happiness, right? It's not being out on a yacht, although that's makes me super happy too. But it's not wearing Rolexes and driving fancy cars. There's a lot more to life than that. I pursued a degree in special education.

I got my master's first in special ed and taught for three years at a school here in Ontario, California. The speech therapist would call my classroom and he said, "Hey, Mr. Wenger, I was going to see if you can send two students over to my office for speech." I'm like, "Steve, is there a way you could send all of them, man? Why do you only have to work with two?" This guy was walking around campus with a smile on his face. He was going to IEP meetings, and he was just like, "I love working with your child. Here are some speech goals." I was like, "Man, this guy's life, I need this." Because for my position at the time, as the teacher, it was more of like, "Why did you give Johnny a C?" I'm like, "I don't need this stress."

I went back and I got a degree in Communicative Disorders, became a speech therapist, and haven't looked back since. The great thing about it is because you can really have a lot of autonomy, and that's really what I like about it is, that I can guide the students and support them with what I feel they need. I can structure my activities and change it from day to day. I got flexibility. I really like working with small groups. I feel like I make a big impact that way. That's kind of where everything went to fruition.

Then I just got into working for a company called the Bureau of Education Research, which is the largest professional development company in the Northern Hemisphere. I got into that, because I was pushed by another SLP that said, "You've got a lot of stuff that you need to start speaking" and I was like, "Nope, I got a lot of anxiety, and I got a lot of nerves, and I'm going to need some shots of tequila. I need to reach out to Mary Beth, she sells beer." But anyway, I said, "You know what? I'll speak in front of 10 teachers on a staff day, whereas a breakout session." Then just from there, just built, and gave me momentum. Then I was like, "You know what? Now, I'm much more comfortable." Then, so yeah, that's kind of the history of Speech Dude.

[0:12:24] MBH: Yes. When did you coin the phrase Speech dude?

[0:12:27] CW: Actually, way back when I've always been into technology, because in high school back in the nineties when the Internet was just coming around, I was coding and developing websites, like writing HTML, for actually people that's Ð like pool companies that would build pools. I was developing their websites. Anyway, I've always been like one step in front of technology. When Twitter came out, I got the Speech Dude handle, which was prior to Instagram ever being released. When Instagram came out, I want to say like 14 years ago, Speech Dude just seems to go with me, because I'm a dude that surfs, and a dude that does speech for a living. So Speech Dude was it, that was my moniker. So yeah, that's kind of where it all came from.

[0:13:14] MBH: That's great. Now, are you in Orange County now?

[0:13:16] CW: I moved out of Orange County. I'm in Los Angeles, where there's zero traffic. Yeah right! It's the worst, it's the worst traffic in the world. I'm in Los Angeles, I love it. I'm real close to the beach. My fiancŽ, Jessie, she goes by the Sensory SLP as you know. You've met Jessie. That's pillow talk. I'm in her clinic right now, so she works with zero to five pediatrics, autistic kids, and really sensory-focused. Her and I, we really Ð a lot of the ideas and her ideas, we exchange because I work with older students. She works with younger clients. It all comes together really well.

[0:13:55] MBH: Wow. Wow. So you really have the continuum. Well, that is wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing that with us. We're going to dive into assessments. But first, let's talk about neurodiversity. Let's kind of define it. It's a name, it's a term that's thrown around a lot, but a lot of people can't really define it succinctly. 

[0:14:15] CW: Yes, and I don't know if I will either. Let's just break it down with neuro, and the way that I describe it to my students that I work with. I teach them about this kind of stuff, because I think that the more you can learn about your brain, the easier it is to say, "Hey, there's nothing wrong with me, I'm not broken. I just think differently, or I communicate differently, or I navigate life a little bit differently." So neuro Ð I'll just break it down. Neuro means brain. Neurologist is a doctor that works on your brain. Neurosurgeon, the surgeon that works on your brain. Neuro is brain and diversity is different. So different hair color, different race, religion, culture. So we have brain differences. That's neurodiversity, is brain differences.

The thing about neurodiversity, neurodiversity movement, neurodiversity paradigm is that it looks and it says, "Hey, because we have brain differences, we need to recognize and respect that people have differences, that they're not broken, that there doesn't need to be a cure, but that we need to recognize that."

Let me step back, back in the nineties, there was a lady by the name of Judy Singer. She is an Australian disability rights activist, and she was the one that coined the term. Judy Singer, her last name rhymes with my last name, Wenger. So I pretty much made up the term neurodiversity. I'm kidding. Her name is Judy Singer, she coined that term. It's basically saying, "Hey, look, the human brain with having differences or different neuro types, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, all of the different neurological differences make up a broad spectrum of the human experience." That's what the neurodiversity movement does, is it challenges traditional medical models and traditional methods that historically have been used. 

Honestly, they're still really heavily used in current day. Most of our IEP stuff is built on a medical model. The DSM-5, which diagnoses people based on the medical model. That was developed in 1952, and not much has changed. Like, "Oh my gosh, we need to make a change. Let's do this."

[0:16:29] MBH: I would think so, yes. The term neurodiverse is often used to refer to people with autism, but it can be used to refer to anyone with diverse neurological Ð

[0:16:41] CW: Yes. Like neurotypical would be a definition that is a way that most people experience the world. That's the way I can best put it, it's the majority, like 80% of the population. Anybody that diverges from that norm of what most people experience the world, and their perceptions, and the way they communicate. If you diverge from that, then you would be considered neurodivergent, not neurodiverse. Neurodiverse is literally everybody. 

When I say I work with students, I say I work with neurodivergent students. Neurodiverse students would be like the whole student body. Does that make sense? Neurodivergent are those that diverge away from what is coined as like typical, what most people experience. I hate using the word normal, but sometimes, I guess for context, it's needed. But that's kind of how it is. 

So yes, neurodiversity movement is saying, "Hey. You know what? Rather than trying to change who you are, rather than trying to make you inauthentic to try to be neurotypical, which doesn't work, because all that does is it leads to stress, and anxiety, and depression, and much, much worse. When you are taught constantly that you can't be who you were born to be." The neurodiversity movement says, "Look, we're going to honor and align our therapy goals and our plan to meet your needs without changing who you are. But we're going to give you those skills, so you can live a happy life, a prosperous life, a harmonious life."

[0:18:20] MBH: Okay. Well, thank you for differentiating that, and very important to note, we're all neurodiverse, but it's neurodivergent. It does seem, we're SLPs, and we like to peel apart words. But it almost seems like it should be a neurodivergent movement versus the neurodiversity movement. I don't know.

[0:18:41] CW: Yes. There's some stuff to it, maybe, but the neurodiversity movement, the reason why it's not Ð it's honoring everybody, really, including neurotypical. Because sometimes, neurotypicals are forced into feeling to be someone they're not. When you do that, then that all comes down from being trauma-informed. It's really getting out of this model of trying to change people or tell them they can't be who they are, or inauthenticity, or relationships in conversations that are not genuine.

[0:19:12] MBH: So respecting diversity across the board, for all.

[0:19:15] CW: Totally, yeah. For all. Exactly. That's really the whole idea. Like seeing the whole world come together. 

[0:19:22] MBH: What would you say? That was like over 25 years ago, actually probably getting closer to 30. But what do you think has really changed in the last 25 years that has brought this concept to the forefront of education?

[0:19:35] CW: Gosh. Okay. Yes. I mean, there's a lot of things that have changed in the past 25 years. The reason why is because we have more information. That's a big one. There's a lot more research out there, a lot more advances with knowing what we didn't know then. Because of that, we're seeing a lot more individuals identified or identifying themselves as being neurodivergent. The more you can recognize and understand things, the more people will relate to that.

Another one for changes over the past 25 years is there's a lot more advocacy. You have a missed generation of people who are autistic adults that didn't know that they were autistic when they were younger. So now we have that whole lost generation over the past Ð gosh, even a lot more in recent years, being able to tell us, and to educate the world like, "Hey, listen to autistic voices, because this is our lived experience."

When you have new advances with research, new information, and autistic voices that are being amplified to make everybody aware, it brings to light, and to the forefront, to help educate everybody about that. That's huge. Another thing that's changed a lot, and continues to change, back to what you were just mentioning on the little subtle nuances with language because it does seem to change like every day, it's hard to keep up. It's like, "Oh my gosh. There's a lot of changes here, how am I going to keep up?" But there has been a big shift in language. 

Historically, through grad school, we were taught Òa person with autismÓ, like you put the person before the disability. The more we hear and learn about autism, the more we see, "Oh, it's a neurotype. There's nothing wrong with being autistic." It's part of the way one identifies who they are. It's not like they can leave the house, and then get in the car, and go, "Oops, I forgot my autism, I better go back and get it." It's like not a person with autism, you don't walk around with it in a backpack or a bag. It's who they are, at the core soul of who they are. That's really important, because the majority of autistic individuals Ð there was a poll done, and I want to say, 87% are about identity first. Because it's who they are, that makes up them as a person, the way they experience the world. That's a big shift in language.

Other things that are shifts in language are switching from deficit-based language. So rather than saying high functioning, or low functioning, autism. Just kind of describe it by levels of need and support. Rather than saying that, that child has severe autism, you would describe the support levels. That child requires more support with access to communication, and more breaks, to help regulate and meet their sensory needs. That child requires a little bit of extra time when they're working, because of their executive functioning differences, to help them focus, and reduce anxiety. That type of language is so much better for everybody because it's more respectful. It's much better for the relationship for the families as well.

Because when you say, "Oh, that child has severe autism. Your child at severe autism. They're nonverbal, they're not going to Ð", and things like that, it's just sad. The language we make now has been so major in the past 25 years. A lot of the stuff too has been coming to the forefront, just in very recent years. The reason is, is because of access to social media. I was even thinking about this recently. Social media connects everybody and get so much information out there within a matter of seconds. I was just thinking about this the other day, I was like, "I would remember just not all too long ago, after work, I'd get home, and I'd turn on the news because I wanted to know what was going on in other parts of the world." I was like, "All right, the five o'clock news is coming on, I got to know what's happening with this thing going on." We don't have that anymore.

I could literally stop a speech test and say, "Hold on you guys. I got to see what's happening over on the other side of the world real quick." Like you get in real-time. Students in high school don't even want to go Ð they don't even care about getting a driver's license anymore. I was like, "Man, when I was in high school, I wanted to get a driver's license." But I was like, "That's because I wanted to get out of the house and go see the world." These kids have cell phones, they don't need to go see the world. They could see the world on their phone. Half of my students don't even care about driving. I was like, "This is so much different with life."

[0:24:19] MBH: Yes, it is really different. I mean, when I was growing up, you tried to get your driver's license on the day that you Ð in our state, it was 16.

[0:24:27] CW: Sixteen, yes. 

[0:24:29] MBH: Yes. Some people are begging their kids to get their driver's licenses.

[0:24:33] CW: Yes, and they're like, "Mom, I don't want it until I'm 42. I'm staying here.

[0:24:39] MBH: Just keep driving me!

[0:24:40] CW: I'm not getting out of this house. But yes, all of this ties into like having more advance in research, and knowledge, and information, literally at the tip of our fingers too. That ties into what has changed in the last 25 years. You and I having this conversation, we couldn't do it. Not too long ago through Zoom, and being able to connect with other participants and educate people with CEUs, and do it like this in real time. This is all relatively new.

[0:25:10] MBH: What has really changed is that getting that diagnosis, a diagnosis for parents, and they can immediately find other people and connect with other parents. Whereas, 25, 30 years ago, you might have gotten a pamphlet, and then you had to go do some research, or maybe you had to go do a support group to meet other parents. But now, through social media, you leave that office where you just received some news, and you can start connecting right away. I think that goes a long way to getting acceptance, feeling connected and feeling supported.

[0:25:46] CW: That is what it's about too. Yes, you get a diagnosis, your child gets a diagnosis, you can find support groups, and other individuals to become part of a community, really huge. Because this is my 20th year of being an SLP, and I can remember all these times were just like, it was kind of taboo, honestly. I would have a student on my caseload, but there was only a couple of students, autism. We've made so much progress. I know we still have a long way to go. But now, parents have easy access to find Ð I shouldn't say easy access, but many parents have better access to finding support groups and finding the right information they need. Because that's honestly another thing, is, where do I find the right information? Because, especially with the topic of being neurodivergent, and finding ADHD, and autism is, if you do a Google search on whatever it is about autism, if you're going to go down the wrong path, you got to kind of know who do I talk to and which path do I go down, because I need the right support.

[0:26:55] MBH: Right. Getting the wrong support can be the flip side of that. Let's talk about assessments. Before we dive into that, it's kind of essential when we're thinking about these assessments to think about bias in assessments, because we can't Ð especially with this population, we can't accurately assess without analyzing our assessment tools.

[0:27:20] CW: Yeah, that's huge. We have to recognize different cultures and different neurotypes. The thing about biases in standardized tests is they're standardized. They are standardized because they're normed solely on neurotypical population. When you have those norms, and then you take a different neuro typing, and then you assess, you are inadvertently making things unfair. There's no equity there. Then, what ends up happening is, you'll have a client or a student come in on these standardized or formalized tests, both on the bell curve here, and they're unfairly judged. They're sitting there going, "Okay. Well, what are you using this information for?" My way of communicating, and my way of processing, and my way of understanding is different than what that test was normed on. That's super important to recognize. We have to at least look at that difference alone.

Then a lot of other things too. We know that some of our students thrive when given visual supports, and have repetition, and clear directions given to them. A lot of these social pragmatic, standardized assessments, they don't have any of that. Now you're like, "Okay. Well, I'm not going to meet the way that you learn. I'm not going to meet your neurotype. I'm going to pull you into an office where you probably already feel like you're getting judged. So now you have anxiety way up here, you're going to get inaccurate results." These are the things that we must consider when it comes to assessments. All of these things lead to inaccurate assessments if we're only using one measure. We need to look from a different lens, a holistic approach. Not just one tiny measure of that one performance, that one day with that one test.

[0:29:21] MBH: Now, does your district require standardized testing?

[0:29:24] CW: Oh, that's a great question. I mean, it just depends on what the setting is. So in schools, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act is the law that oversees special education rights, the federal law. That oversees all special ed. Within the law, it states, I don't know exactly word for word off the top of my head, but I can probably get pretty close. Close enough to be off by like three words. But it says something like, evaluation procedures must be administered in the form to most accurately yield correct results. I might have missed it by one or two words. But basically, the law supports us. The law says, look, if you're not going to get Ðif the standardized assessments not going to yield accurate results, then don't do it. We're told, I think maybe through grad school that you have to have to have to have to have to have social pragmatic, standardized things to make a kid eligible or to qualify for whatever it is. That's not what the law states, so we've all been bamboozled. Because in IDEA, it's guiding us, and saying, "Hey, we want you to look beyond whatever those assessments that you might feel are inaccurate and get the right measurement, get the right data, get the right information. Because the law wants to help kids with disabilities."

[0:30:52] MBH: Right. The law doesn't say anything about standard deviations. 

[0:30:57] CW: No, it doesn't. Not within IDEA Law. IDEA Law doesn't state anything about like diagnosis or anything, so it comes down to eligibility rather than Ð I think that's another thing too, to talk about or to think about too. It's like, we can make a child eligible. Every three years, we have to do a reevaluation so we can do a record review. But we can look beyond the therapy walls and really gather some information. I'll talk about that a little bit, but absolutely critical to find out what's going on with real-time data. Because standardized assessments for social pragmatics are never a good accurate measurement of like what's going on in the classroom, classroom skills ever. They don't, none of these. So really important stuff.

[0:31:45] MBH: Right. That social pragmatics really have to be assessed in the context of socialization.

[0:31:50] CW: Yes. Socialization, real-time data, social-emotional stuff, like what's going on at lunch, and what did the teachers have to say, and what are the caregivers have to say, and let's get some input from the student. Like there's a lot.

[0:32:01] MBH: Well, we have someone who made a comment here, so I'm going to read it. She said, "Yet, it would enhance their life so much to actually go out into the world rather than live so much online. Also, screens are damaging to the brains on so many levels, and there's much sound science to support this. It's demoralizing to see kids who have the approval to be tied to their devices with few 3D connections with people and live experiences in real life." She also said, "I love that standardized tests aren't mandatory in schools anymore! They are not for every child. I was referring to the kids who don't want to drive, but prefer to be on their phones." And that, thank you for clarifying. 

[0:32:40] CW: Yes, that's challenging, because when you tie in dopamine levels too, it's like, checking your phone, and then like, "Oh, that felt good for that five-second video." Then you are on it for eight more hours. Then, yeah, there's got to be that balance. I know that technology, iPads, and things can really help regulate, like after school, and for certain things. But everybody's got their own opinions on certain things. But for me, yes, I'm like a big advocate of waking up early, and jumping in the pool. Like go walk your dogs, and take a look at the owl on the tree. You probably didn't even know it was there, but that thing is awesome. You know what I mean? Like that's healthy.

[0:33:23] MBH: Right. Lived experiences. 

[0:33:25] CW: Yes. I can tell you honestly from a guy who was on medication in my younger years with being diagnosed ADD back before ADD became ADHD. My journey of my own lived experience is that, a lot of my focus, and a lot of my learning, and a lot of my ideas on social media, and a lot of my happiness comes from being outside of my therapy office. I'll tell you that. My headaches come from being on TikTok too much. Like, why does my head hurt? Oh, God, I know why.

[0:33:59] MBH: So very important to recognize bias, especially when working with neurodivergent students, students, children, and adults

[0:34:08] CW: Yes. No, absolutely.

[0:34:11] MBH: All right. Here's a question for you. How does the tool you use affect the outcome?

[0:34:16] CW: Yes. Gosh. The assessment and the tools that we use will gather the data at the present levels. If we're getting inaccurate information, and we're only using one tool, then what happens is, that will drive the view of the student, if we have inaccurate results, and that drives the goals. Let me give you an example. If we're using a pragmatic profile, and it says, "Never, Sometimes, Often, Always." The question says, making eye contact, and you circle never, then that goes in your report. Then, I was like, "Oh, he never makes eye contact, so let's create a goal for eye contact."

Now, you're not looking at how some people process information better when they're not making eye contact. There's a lot of research on this. It's a safety mechanism in the brain, that when people Ð some people prefer not to make eye contact because that's their way of processing information and regulating. When you force somebody to make eye contact, there's research out there that also states that it can cause physical pain. You see what I'm saying? If we're measuring things the wrong way, then the outcome can inadvertently cause more harm than good. 

It's like going to the doctor, and you're like, "Doctor, I have a broken bone, I think. I'm not sure." The doctor is like, "All right. I got my stethoscope, so let's check here." It's a stethoscope and he puts down on your knee, and you're like, "What are you doing with that?" He's like, "It's my tool. It's like what I use. I'm gathering data." "Yes, but you're creeping me out because that stethoscope is not to check if my knee is broken or not." He's like, "It's what I learned in college."

[0:35:58] MBH: Right. This is my tool, I'm going to use it. I also love your other analogy, assessing a zebra's natural behavior, but you assess that zebra in a cage.

[0:36:07] CW: Oh my gosh, right? That's true to life. Imagine if you're hanging out with a zoologist, and were like, "Hey, we are going to observe the behavior and the abilities of a zebra." "Okay. Where are we going to do it?" "Well, we're going to go the Los Angeles Zoo." "We're going to go to the zoo?" "Yes. Yes. They're over in the cage right over here. Let's go check that out." You're going to gather some useful data about the zebra's eating habits. But guess what, you're going to miss out on a lot of their natural abilities, and what they're really able to do. How it interacts with the other zebras out in the wilderness, how it runs, because it can't run in the cage at the LA Zoo. How they gather their food together, and maintain the way that they eat and live healthy. What ends up happening is that, you say, if we just view a zebra in the cage, then we're going to make inaccurate results that teach the zebra that they can no longer be a zebra. 

The zebra says, "Well, I was told I can't be a zebra. I have to be like the horses because those horses are neurotypical. I'm a neurodivergent zebra, I can't do this, because I just have the wrong goals. I got behavior therapy teaching me that I can't be me." The zebra goes over and tries to rub his stripes off and realizes by trying not to be a zebra and trying to be the horse, he's damaging himself, he's causing harm, he's having everybody guide him. Nobody wins with that approach. That's the medical model. That's the model we got to get away from. That's why this is so vital for the way we work with our autistic students, is like life-changing, honestly.

[0:37:41] MBH: Yes. Not trying to get those stripes off, we got to keep those stripes on.

[0:37:46] CW: Honestly, you value and honor the stripes of the zebra. You value and honor our students' differences, what are their abilities, while also looking at what are their needs, so we can meet those needs. That can include assessments that come from a holistic approach. That can come into accounting for looking, and viewing things from beyond the therapy walls in a variety of settings, and a variety of interactions, looking at just a lot of things.

[0:38:15] MBH: All right. That leads us to the strength-based assessment, and how that strength-based assessment veers away from the disability approach.

[0:38:24] CW: Yes. Historically, the deficit-based approach versus a strength-based approach. The deficit-based approach looks at social deficits, even though they're not deficits. They pathologize interactions, they look at weaknesses. Let me give you an example. One thing that's pretty common for speech in the world of speech therapy, and especially in some of these forms is; does the child engage in reciprocity, reciprocal communication. Turn-taking back-and-forth conversation exchange.

What that does is it ends up guiding a goal to say, "Child will engage in a three to four conversation exchange with the partner on the partner's preferred topic, three to five minutes." What it doesn't do though Ð that ends up, first off, the student, the child might prefer to just talk about the thing that they want to talk about, and it might be a lot longer than what some people are used to, which is totally okay. That's what brings them comfort. That's what connects them with others.

But forcing somebody into that type of situation only makes them judge themselves. Did I at this particular situation say my three or four senses like I was taught? Did I say it right? They're constantly doubting themselves, they're constantly judging themselves. When you do that, you start to be socially isolated. Then as they get older, to my population, the teens, they're like, "I don't want to go to school. There are too many people. I'm stressed out. I've got so much anxiety." Because they've been pushed into these situations. Think about it. If you went with your significant other to their cousin's wedding, what's the first thing we do when we get to the wedding? I know what you're going to say. You're going to say, "Go buy beer at the bar." Nope. That's second.

Here's the first thing we all do. We walk in and we see the poster of where we're going to be seated, the tables. We go, "Oh gosh, we don't know anybody at that table." Imagine that, like you first look and we all do that. Imagine if somebody said, "Hey, you're at table eight. You don't know anybody there, but you're going to have to engage in a three-to-four-person conversation exchange, and it can't be about what you want to talk about. You have to talk about socks, or you have to talk about the Cleveland Browns."

[0:40:42] MBH: Not Cleveland.

[0:40:44] CW: Oh, no. The Steelers, the Raiders, whatever, you can talk about something that you don't want to talk about. Three-to-four-person conversation exchange. That creates stress and anxiety. With stress and anxiety, you end up going to the bar not wanting to go sit down at the table. You see my point though? There is no need to push people or push our students into situations that make things even more anxiety-inducing.

The strengths-based approach, let's talk about that because that's the deficit-based approach, is saying, "Look, that student is not making eye contact, or that student not initiating a conversation, or beginning a conversation. Or that student only talks about what they want to talk about. They're not talking about other people's interests," all of those things. A strengths-based approach identifies the student's interest, identifies their communication style, and also looks at what can we do to serve to provide support to navigate those things that are challenging. 

For example, if a student likes to talk about Five Nights at Freddy's, that's a new movie that came out that students, and kids are into right now, and that's what they talk about a lot. We would frame it as, this student connects well with other students who have similar communication styles, by talking about some things that they really enjoy; Five Nights at Freddy's Super Mario Brothers, Roblox, anime, whatever it might be. This builds connections with others. This helps them regulate. This helps them create opportunities to have natural conversations. This creates genuine connections with peers. Do you see that language, how much more effective that can be? Than if I were to say, "Student perseverates on Five Nights at Freddy's and they don't talk about other people's interests. They do not engage in reciprocal communication and they lack eye contact. That's what we see most of the time.

What I just said, is very much heavily what we see in reports in IEPs right now. Do you see how I reframed that to where we're talking about who the student is, and why they do what they do without pathologizing them? Then I might add something like, "In class, student does well when given more time. However, they struggle to ask for their accommodations." So our goal can now be structured as, "We will work with the student with a goal that aligns with their communication style, and teach them how to self-advocate to get their needs met, for their accommodations for their conversational differences, for their communication style differences. The student will learn ways to help regulate when feeling overwhelmed, or when they have too much sensory input, or when they're feeling emotional distress. The student will find one trusted person in the building that can help them coregulate."

All of these things are supporting the students in a strengths-based way. I'm not speaking in pathologizing them or viewing any of their differences or characteristics as deficits that need to be fixed. So major reframe with that type of language. 

[0:44:09] MBH: Now, I do have a question. You reframed that language. You focus on their strengths. Their strength might be to talk about Anime, but they do need to participate in English class like the rest of the students. How do you get from Anime to English class with the goal?

[0:44:29] CW: Right. Gosh, on that scenario, I guess I need a little bit more detail. Let's say the students in class, we know that they love anime, but they are not participating in class and we want them to participate. 

[0:44:43] MBH: Well, we want them to participate or do they need to participate is the perspective. Well, they don't need to participate. I don't work in a school and I've had limited experience working with a neurodivergent population. I'm asking as an SLP, but also as someone in the public.

[0:45:01] CW: Yes, good question. Let's say the class has requirements where this is actually really common, where students have to verbally participate in their Spanish class. The teacher goes around and says, "Hey, the lines that you learned in Spanish, you have to speak out loud." Because I've noticed, as I work on a high school campus. Let's say the student doesn't want to do that, they don't participate. We can frame their IEP, so that's the document that helps set them up to have some accommodation. 

Maybe there's an alternative way, so they don't have to verbally speak. They can do it with a different method of communicating that. They can write it down, they can email the teacher, they can do it after class, before class, or after school. They can get peer support, they can have multiple ways of communicating that need.

Then, what we would do is we would build the skill for the student to understand their needs, so they can communicate that to the teacher. It might look something like Ð and I'll put it in the perspective of the student. I focus in follow along in class, I'm a good listener, I like to play it safe. Sometimes I do best if I'm sitting towards the front of the class, so I don't have distractions in front of me. If it comes to random calling, or it comes to popcorn reading, or I'm put on the spot, it tends to put me in shutdown mode, and I can't get any words out. Can you please give me some ideas to help me make this semester successful?

The students, I'm building that type of language for them, so they can communicate those needs to who they need. Rather than what sometimes can happen is, "All right, Amanda. We need you to answer questions three and four." And she wasn't prepared for it, and gets extremely distressed, goes into shutdown mode, kids make fun of her, she runs out of the class, and then a behavior intervention plan is created. They claim that she is attention-seeking or eloping. We don't want that. We want to be able to build an environment that's inclusive, and that meets the needs of our kids. That's really the thing, is that it's not a one-size-fits-all package. Just because 38 other students are required to speak out loud doesn't mean that we can't accommodate the students who need the accommodations to prioritize their well-being. I always think that should be at the forefront.

[0:47:19] MBH: Exactly. Okay. That part comes through with accommodations. 

[0:47:24] CW: Then the goal can be, to support asking for whatever it is that their needs are. That's always a good thing that we can work on in speeches. What are your needs? What are your differences? What are your challenges? And let's learn to advocate for all of these types of things that you need. That's not just helpful for the educational setting. That's helpful for life beyond the school walls. Going to the doctor's office, going to the dentist, going to the DMV, and having to wait in the 18-hour line.

[0:47:54] MBH: Yes. Going to work. I was just going to say the same thing. I mean, really, you're preparing them for life no matter where you are, because you need to be able to advocate for yourself.

[0:48:03] CW: Totally. Yes. Yes, big time. 

[0:48:06] MBH: Yes. All right. Well, we could talk all night, but we don't have that long. So we do have a little bit more time, so let's jump into Ð so we're going to focus on social-emotional learning, and the Dynamic Assessment of Social-Emotional Learning is what you have created to address neurodivergent students and find what their strengths are, and set them up for success with their goals in school, and eventually in life. Tell us a little bit about that. When did you start to create this?

[0:48:40] CW: Gosh, a lot of the conversation that we've had in the great discussion, it's just one of those things, where just over time, kind of built this framework. had created it initially two years ago with just a small PDF-type thing to get out there. Then, over time, I created it into like an online platform with a goal bank, with suggested report write ups, and a lot of tutorials. It just continues to grow, which is really cool. Yes. Really, the idea behind it is getting beyond the standardized assessment. Life, for every single one of us, is based on a series of questions and answers. That's how it is, right? It's even like our day when we wake up and the questions we ask ourselves like, "Oh gosh, what's going to happen in this meeting? How's the freeway going to be? What's going to suck in my day-to-day?"

When we ask questions that are deficit-based, then we're going to get deficit-based response. We're stepping out of the medical model. The idea with the DASEL is that, we are getting information from a holistic viewpoint. What I mean by that is, from everybody. We're going to get the whole picture, a picture of what's going on.

There is a teacher form that has all of the right questions. When we talk about self-advocacy, we talk about a whole area of self-advocacy, because self-advocacy isn't just about saying, raising your hand and asking for help. Self-advocacy can comment a lot of different forms through boundaries, through advocating for Ð letting people know our communication differences or a variety of things. So it takes all of these things, perspective taking, self-regulation, what's working in the class.

You get information from the teacher in real-time. What's going on right now in this moment, and right when they submit the form, you get that data quickly. So it streamlines it. Like if you have a report that's due tomorrow, you're like, "Oh my gosh. I got to get all the information from the teachers, and I need some solid information." You can get it in a matter of minutes. So it's super awesome. The caregiver form. For the parents, the caregivers, same type of thing. For the first time in the parent's life, they're getting questions that guide them on who their child is, the things that they enjoy doing, the things that work well at home, the things that keep their child calm. How does their child respond when they get dysregulated? What are some strategies that have worked? A variety of things.

We ask the right questions, and we will be able to get the right information in the reports. That's a home run when you go to these meetings because the families Ð a couple of days ago, I was at an IEP meeting. I took the information from the DASEL caregiver form, and I had it in my report, and I turned to the student, because he was in the IEP meeting. I'm in high school, so oftentimes, they'll attend. I said, "Your mom completed a form for me, and I wanted you to hear this." It said things like, "My child is such a compassionate person who is always willing to help out others. My child loves building his Legos in his room, and that's what helps keep him calm, and that's his passion. He likes to play video games in Roblox with his dad, and visit his grandmother's house. Disneyland is his favorite place to go around the holiday season." She broke down in tears, because for the first time, she was apprehensive at first, like, "Oh no, what did I put in that report?" Because she was so used to a life of filling out doctors' forms and forms from schools that say, "What can your child not do?" 

[0:52:32] MBH: Negative, negative, negative.

[0:52:34] CW: All negative, yes. I'm serious, like some of the forms these parents get is like 65 questions or 118,000 questions, but for the first time. Then there's questions like, what are right now some of the biggest hurdles? Things like that. We're not just looking at all the interest, and the connections, and all that stuff. But we're also looking at, how can we help support the family, so we can give the student, the child the right goals, and make this experience at school as optimal and best possible. That's really the goal.

Then there's a form that is for the students. Most of the time, historically, we're taught, bring a student in, assess the student, gather your data from all these tests, and then create your present levels, which is going to drive your goals. Now, any input from the student, like what's going on in their life. They don't know. We're giving the student agency, and we're building that advocacy, and we're building that self-determination. We are getting input from the student, like their thoughts. It's all based on research, like what are their thoughts on friends, what are they looking for at school or not, problem solving, self-advocacy, perspective, like all of these things. The students don't feel stressed because it's all digital. They don't have to answer verbally. There is no right or wrong answer. It's just, hey, I'm here to learn about you.

Every single word, not every single question, but every single word was very thoughtfully considered of what went into every single question on every single form. So we can get the absolute, most accurate, and best representation, and a holistic view of the student. When you can do that, you're going to win every time because you're able to sit in these meetings and go in with confidence. Rather than walking into these meetings a little nervous about what the outcome is going to be. You walk into these meetings with a smile, like I can't wait to share with the parent all of these valuable things that have come out of this. But I also can't wait to share some new, helpful, non-pathologizing goals that are going to meet the student's needs. It's really a game-changer. 

[0:54:59] MBH: And goals that really matter to that student in the here and now, in the classroom with their friends, at home. Goals that were created really by the student for the student versus by us for the student.

[0:55:13] CW: That ties right into the intrinsic motivation. When you have input, and you are guiding your own goals, or at least you're feeling like you've been listened to, like you're being heard, then that's going to be intrinsically motivating. Like, hey, you know what? That is something that I would like to work on. That is a goal that I would like to meet. Isn't that how it is for all of us in life? I want to be able to say, you know what? I wish I was a little bit better in this area, or a little bit better in this area, and being able to have my own input.

But the other thing about it is, it's not just about sitting down with the student and saying, "What would you like to work on?" Because they don't know. So they need a series of things that guide them to where they're like, "Oh, yeah. You know what? I can kind of use some support here. I can definitely work on trying to understand why people think and say what they do. I would like to learn a little bit more about coregulation strategies. I would like to learn about Ð" you know what I mean? 

Then, from there Ð it's again, it's a simple checkbox too. It's so much easier to fill out a form independently on our own, than sit there, and get asked a series of verbal questions from an examiner when you feel you're being judged. So yes, it really takes away all that anxiety and all that pressure. The nice thing about it is, it's not just for autistic students, it's for all students. Everybody could benefit, so it's pretty cool. 

[0:56:42] MBH: Well, that is cool. Yes. Yes. Yes. We are getting close, but we have some questions. I know we wanted to talk about a case study or two. Let's go through the questions first. This is from an anonymous attendee. In regards to strength-focused goals, how do we create goals to get through everyday life, not just in the classroom, where people in the world do not know this individual, and there are no accommodations from the general public? 

[0:57:07] CW: Oh gosh. Let me try to speak that back so I can make sure that I'm understanding. Not just goals that are helping the student at school or on the campus, but like, how do we create strengths-based goals to help them navigate life in general? Okay. Yes. I mean, self-advocacy goals, perspective-taking goals, coregulation goals. Let me explain what that might look like, and I kind of shared that a little bit earlier.

When you have a goal that can identify what your learning preferences and differences are, and when you have a goal that can identify your characteristics and traits, and you learn more about yourself, then it makes it a lot easier to self-advocate for those needs. Let me give you an example. If we understand that we might have some sound sensitivities when too many people in class are talking at once. Then knowing that can help us learn to get our own accommodations, such as loop ears, small, little, tiny, noise-canceling earplugs that are fashionable. They're awesome. You can change the decibel level. You can specifically get them for just noisy people talking in class. You can get them for sleeping at night. You can get them if you have to go to an assembly and too much noise going on.

Anyway, knowing that, then you can work on a goal for the student of how do you advocate for using your earplugs during testing time, or during when the class gets too loud, or how do you advocate for saying, "You know what, in advance, I can tend to feel my body, and my heart beat race a little bit, and I start to get overwhelmed, and that can potentially lead to a meltdown if everybody's talking at once, because my brain can't process. Can I step outside for a minute? Can I go get some water? Can you give me a fake envelope that I can pretend like I'm going to give to the secretary in the office, so I can get out of this situation to really help me during those times?" 

That strategy in that language extends far beyond the wall because that becomes the same thing as when you make an appointment with the dentist. And then you can say, "I tend to get dysregulated when I hear the drilling of whatever's going on in my mouth. Can you give me visuals? Can I wear my noise-canceling headphones? Is there a way that I can wear my glasses that block out some of the bright light? Do you by chance have toothpaste that's non-flavored?" We're working on these skills way beyond what happens at school to meet their needs and navigate the barriers of life. That's just one example.

[0:59:48] MBH: Good example. Good example. Okay. We are running out of time. We probably don't have time for those case studies. I will have to say, we would love for you to come back and share some case studies. Hopefully, it won't take us two years to get you back. But I know you're a very busy guy. But I want to make sure that we get all the participants' questions answered. Here's another question. Do you have a sample reframed goals on your Instagram account?

[1:00:12] CW: Oh, I have an entire goal bank that is part of the DASEL. I also have a neurodiversity-affirming IEP course. But on my Instagram account, I have done a lot of verbal videos with example goals. I'm going to start putting more example goals up that are going to be in print for some ways to help.

[1:00:32] MBH: Okay. Speaking of goals, we have another question. What do you think of having a goal of having the student be able to understand and explain their neurodivergence?

[1:00:44] CW: Yes. I think that's a good goal. I would say that, the way I would frame it is that, something that would be along the lines of the student will learn about their strengths, their characteristics, and potential challenges, and how they can use that information to meet their educational needs. I think that's a really important thing. Because when the students can learn about what info dumping and being concise means, when the student can learn about alexithymia, which is the lack of being able to put words to emotions. Sometimes these kids get therapy, and it's like, all right, we're going to look at a bunch of picture cards. Which one is a picture of the person feeling angry, and which ones the person feeling anxious? Or we say, how did you feel during this situation, and they can't describe it. More than likely, they have alexithymia.

Being able to teach them about these things will help them go, "Oh. You mean there's a word for it, and you mean that it's not me being bad or anything, but there's a whole world of people out there like that? Okay. So then, what can I do to help myself?" So yes, I mean, really learning about those neurodivergent characteristics, understanding their strengths, understanding those things is huge.

[1:02:02] MBH: Well, thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, how can people get a hold of you? Can you tell us about your Instagram account or what's the best way for people to see you?

[1:02:11] CW: Yes. The best way would be social media on any platform, so on TikTok, or Instagram, would be Speech Dude. Just type in @speechdude. My website is speechdude.com. Those would be probably the best ways to check out all my content. Then my email is chris@speechdude.com.

[1:02:32] MBH: Thank you. Thank you. The DASEL is available for purchase?

[1:02:36] CW: Yes, the DASEL. I have a webinar. I do periodic webinars to give more context. That's an hour long, just so people kind of know, but I shared a lot about it throughout this too. If someone is interested in purchasing it, they can get it right off of speechdude.com, and it'll give all the information. If there's any questions, chris@speechdude.com.

[1:02:59] MBH: Okay. Well, great. Well, Chris, I'm glad Ð it was worth the wait.

[1:03:03] CW: We did some great stuff here. We hit some home runs in some areas, and grand slams in others, and I'm so happy that you got me on and invited me on. I'm grateful for you on doing that, so thank you so much.

[1:03:17] MBH: Well, thank you so much, and thank you to Yumi, and Tabby, and everyone at SpeechTherapyPD.com. I can't believe it's 75th episode. It seems like just yesterday that Yumi said, "Do you want to host a podcast?" So I was like, "Who? Me? Well, okay. I don't know how, but I'll try." That's what we have to keep doing in life, just keep trying, right?

[1:03:40] CW: That's right. Absolutely. I love that too. That's a huge milestone. Seventy-five is big.

[1:03:46] MBH: Yes, it is big. It's been fun. Thank you, everyone. Thank you to all of our participants. Thanks, everyone. Have a great night.

[1:03:54] CW: Bye, everyone. Thank you. 

[OUTRO]

[1:03:57] MBH: Thanks for joining us here at Keys for SLPs, providing keys to open new doors to better serve our clients throughout the lifespan. Remember to go to SpeechTherapyPD.com to learn more about earning ASHA's CEUs for this episode and more. Thanks for your positive reviews and support. I would love for you to write a quick review and subscribe. Keep up the good work.

[END]
KFSP 75		Transcript

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