EPISODE 246

[0:00:01] MD: Okay, everybody. Our gratitude journey entry for First Bite for today is to our Wookiee, to our big dog, Chewbacca. Because today's episode was the last episode that we recorded with him sitting shotgun, it's weird to be recording this while he's sitting next to me, but Chewbacca Dawson had metastatic melanoma on the surface of his tongue, and it moved everywhere. After a year of a diagnosis, we have to let him go home, and that was a really hard decision for our family.

My gratitude entry for today is thank you, Wookiee, for ten years of loving us, for stealing the boysÕ cheeseburgers, for farting so big you could clear a room, for pouncing on the slightly tipsy fraternity brothers before and after a USC game caught game. It was always funny to watch him. He waited by defense to catch them and then would run up and then bark at him and then log back up the front gate and look at us like, ÒI'm a good boy.Ó To our Wookiee, you are the biggest blessing. Thank you for ten years of loving us. It will never be enough. But there is my heartfelt, raw gratitude.

Now, on to today's guest, who is amazing, and let me get all teary-eyed before we started recording to talk about it. Let us reschedule four billion times because we had to handle the move and do everything else. Amanda, with my whole heart, thank you, thank you, thank you. You're amazing. Y'all, I really hope you enjoy the conversation and stay tuned at the end for our favorite spots to donate your love money. All right, thanks, guys.

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:02:17] MD: Hi, folks, and welcome to First Bite: Fed, Fun and Functional. A speech therapy podcast sponsored by speechtherapypd.com. I am your host on this nerd venture, Michelle Dawson, MS, CCC-SLP, CLC, the All-Things PEDs SLP. I am a colleague in the trenches of home health, early intervention right there with you. I run my own private practice, Heartwood Speech Therapy here in Columbia, South Carolina. I guest lecture nationwide on best practices for early intervention for the medically complex children. First BiteÕs mission is short and sweet, to bring the light, hope, knowledge, and joy to the pediatric clinician, parent, or advocate.

[0:03:04] EF: By way of a nerdy conversation, so there's plenty of laughter, too.

[0:03:08] MD: In this podcast, we cover everything from AAC to breastfeeding.

[0:03:13] EF: Ethics on how to run a private practice.

[0:03:16] MD: Pediatric dysphagia to clinical supervision.

[0:03:19] EF: And all other topics in the world of pediatric speech pathology. Our goal is to bring evidence-based practice straight to you by interviewing subject matter experts.

[0:03:28] MD: To break down the communication barriers, so that we can access the knowledge of their fields.

[0:03:34] EF: Or, as a close friend says, ÒTo build the bridge.Ó

[0:03:37] MD: By bringing other professionals and experts in our field together, we hope to spark advocacy, joy, and passion for continuing to grow and advance care for our little ones.

[0:03:48] EF: Every fourth episode, I join them. I'm Erin Forward, MSP, CCC-SLP, the Yankee by way of Rochester, New York transplant who actually inspired this journey. I bring a different perspective, that of a new-ish clinician with experience in early intervention, pediatric acute care, and non-profit pediatric outpatient settings.

[0:04:09] MD: Sit back, relax, and watch out for all hearth growth and enjoy this geeky gig brought to you by speechtherapypd.com.

[DISCLOSURE]

[0:04:24] MD: Hey, this is Michelle Dawson, and I need to update my disclosure statements. My non-financial disclosures. I actively volunteer with Feeding Matters, National Foundation of Swallowing Disorders, NFOSD, Dysphagia Outreach Project, DOP. I am a former treasurer with the Council of State Association Presidents, CSAP, a past president of the South Carolina Speech Language and Hearing Association, SCSHA, a current Board of Trustees member with the Communication Disorders Foundation of Virginia. I am a current member of ASHA, ASHA SIG13, SCSHA, the Speech-Language-Hearing Association of Virginia, SHAV, a member of the National Black Speech Language Hearing Association, NBASLH, and Dysphagia Research Society, DRS. Additionally, I volunteer with ASHA as the topic chair for the Pediatric Feeding Disorder Planning Committee for the ASHA 2023 Convention in Boston, and I hope you make it out there.

My financial disclosures include receiving compensation for First Bite Podcast from speechtherapypd.com, as well as from additional webinars and for webinars associated with Understanding Dysphagia; which is also a podcast with speechtherapypd.com. I currently receive a salary from the University of South Carolina in my work as adjunct professor and student services coordinator, and I receive royalties from the sale of my book, Chasing the Swallow: Truth, Science, and Hope for Pediatric Feeding and Swallowing Disorders as well as compensation for the CEUs associated with it from speechtherapypd.com. Those are my current disclosure statements. Thanks, guys.

[0:06:22] EF: The views and opinions expressed in today's podcast do not reflect the organizations associated with the speakers and are their views and opinions solely.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:06:30] MD: All right, everybody. We are kicking off August with joy. I know that this is probably hotter than Hades wherever you live. For those of you that are still living in South Carolina, bless, because it's probably a 112. Watch today via cool spell roll through, but otherwise, huzzah. Okay, anywho, we have a dynamic, amazing, brilliant, beautiful, compassionate, also, she has survived her toddler teething mommy SLP on today. We have none other than Amanda Pericles, MS, CCC-SLP. Currently in Charlotte by way of Boston, and she is amazing and patient as we worked through numerous tech issues and the fancy way to adulting of an office that my husband has set up for me, and he thinks I know what I'm doing, which is cute because at all, and he's not here. Without further ado, Amanda, hi. Thank you for your Ð

[0:07:34] AP: Hello. No, thank you. Because the first time, it was definitely my fault. Then the other times, we were like, ÒAll right, let's reschedule.Ó You are also just as patient.

[0:07:47] MD: I mean, we are what we are. But okay, so we have 400 things to cover today, and y'all, this is a very crucial conversation that has to be had, that I am feeling intimately that this conversation, everybody who has ever served as a clinical supervisor, or wants to serve as a clinical supervisor needs to absorb in their heart because the experiences that you have had, your personal lived experience in order to become a speech pathologist are very different than my personal lived experiences. That is something that is not really talked about at predominantly white institutes, PWIs. We have to do better. Thank you for leading by example, maÕam.

[0:08:51] AP: Oh, thank you. I don't do much, but I try.

[0:08:57] MD: I beg to differ. But yes, okay. You and I knew each other from social media and then met in person at ASHA a hot minute ago. Can you tell everybody where they can find you on the land of the Insta?

[0:09:14] AP: Yes. My handle on Instagram is @theblackspeechie. My email, I'm sure you can share this later, is amandapericlesslp@gmail.com. Yeah, that's where I started my Insta journey. I just started it to share about grad school and my journey through grad school, and it's just been a continuation ever since.

[0:09:34] MD: It's been lovely. I think I followed you since you were in grad school, so Ð

[0:09:38] AP: Probably.

[0:09:40] MD: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Then take us from the top. How did you hear about becoming a speech pathologist and about this profession? Let's start at the very beginning.

[0:09:51] AP: The very beginning, when I was failing out of pre-med. That's literally where it started. I was a bio major, and I was pre-med. I wanted to be a pediatrician when I grew up, so my mom and my father but they were both born in Dominican Republic. My mom is a trained Ð she went through medical school in DR and was going to be a pediatrician. Unfortunately, she didn't really get to live that out, and they moved here. She didn't get to live that out here either, but I was always like, ÒI'm going to be a pediatrician.Ó

I was just doing very poorly. I was one of those people that never learned how to study. Prioritizing was always really hard for me. I was really into being social, and I lived at a home where we were very strict and religious, and I didn't really get to do as much socializing as I did freely in college. I got there, and I was just like, okay, I need to do something else. I'm failing this class. I'm about to fail this class. My friends told me to look into the Sergeant College at Boston University, which is where the SLP program is held.

I went to go speak at the college with a financial Ð not a financial, an academic advisor. She basically recommended it to me. She recommended speech and OT to me, and I hadn't heard of neither of them, but I began taking the courses the following year. I took the intro class, and I was like, ÒOh, this is so cool.Ó Because the big thing that drew me to speech was all the different things that we could do, obviously, they didn't even talk about all the niche things, like med SLP voice, or whatever, but they were just talking about how you can work in the homes, you can work in the schools, you can work at an outpatient clinic, you can work in the hospitals. I was like, ÒWow, that's really, really cool.Ó That's what drew me in, and I was hooked right away. It sounded very, very cool.

That's what how I got introduced. I had no idea about it prior to and I just continued taking the courses and then eventually, I switched over to speech as my major, and I made it through BU by the skin of my teeth with a 2.82 GPA, and I graduated, and I was like, okay. That's how I found out about speech. I had no idea what it was previously, as many of people Ð I feel like I've heard of more people knowing about it once I got into the field. I was like, how did you guys even know about this, whether it be through a family member or them going through it personally?

[0:12:14] MD: That was me. My littlest brother was born with a cleft lip, and then my stepmom got electrocuted. She was seven months pregnant. She was changing out, you know the toggling part on a light switch, it wasn't Ð what is it? Neutral. It was still charged. She got shocked. He was born with dysarthria because of everything that had happened. Not apraxia, but dysarthria. My Ð Mrs Fransky, my friendÕs mom who was a ballet teacher Ð we took ballet together, but she was a speech pathologist. I learned about it from Miss Fransky, who was EffieÕs speech pathologist. I was like, 12, 13. He didn't talk till he was, like, almost four.

It was a sibling or a family member. Now he's 6Õ4Ó and has a degree in physics from, I don't know, some college in DC. I'm like, ÒWhat do you do with that?Ó He goes, ÒI make things not blow up.Ó I'm like, ÒAwesome. That's what my husband does.Ó

[0:13:14] AP: ThatÕs great.

[0:13:16] MD: I appreciate that. We need earth grains because that's a lot of math. I failed out of physics.

[0:13:23] AP: Honestly, stats and all those things, I was like, ÒWhy do I have to retake this?Ó

[0:13:28] MD: I had an almost perfect score on the SATs and English, I missed it by 10 points. My work was so low I went to a community college and had to take prereqs to take the basic math.

[0:13:42] AP: Oh, really?

[0:13:44] MD: Yes. So, there.

[0:13:45] AP: Once I got to calculus, I was not, yeah. I liked everything beforehand, but not once I got to calculus.

[0:13:51] MD: This is bless. Yeah, so I understand. But okay. I am a lot older than you. I just turned 40. There's a little bit of an age gap. You're sweet to not mention how old you are. Thank you. Grad school honestly, it was challenging to get into graduate school, but the recommendation given was just apply to two or three. I'm an anal overachiever, so I applied to five because I was worried. It was not as difficult to get into. Going to say that through my personal lived experiences of coming from a middle-class, white family, with my grades were very high and my SAT scores and my GRE scores were very high, so I know that there was inherent, what is the word? I was going to say, not implicit bias, but there's giftedness and privilege with my experiences. My hubbub is different for others.

[0:14:55] AP: Right. I was just thinking about this before we hopped on the call because I was taking a look at the questions. I was just thinking about something that recurringly comes up into my mind is the knowledge of how to navigate academia and how that has always been a sore point for me. It's always been a point of self-consciousness, I guess, you could say, because my mom just had to figure her way into anything. I went to private school for eighth grade through high school, and that was just because my mom, her patients love her, she works as a medical assistant, and they're always chatting to her, and she found out about this school that's close to our home. She just figured her way to get both me and my sister into that school.

We had to learn about the FAFSA and paying tuition and all of these tax documents that you need. Same thing through college. I just think about all of my peers who happen to have parents, who went to school here and have maybe multiple degrees here and just knew all of these things off the bat and knew etiquette and knew the timelines and knew all of these things and how Ð I obviously made it through, but just like, I guess, the anxiety, the large amounts of anxiety that came before having to take those steps was just something that even now, I just think about it, and it activates me. It's like a, I don't want to say trigger, but it activates me, and I just think about how hard that was and how anxiety-inducing that was. I can imagine how other people who didn't even have that.

At least I had 8th through 12th, going to a very exclusive Ð I went to basically an all-white, all-girls Quaker school for 8th through 12th grade. It's the only K through 12 all-girls Quakers Independent School in the North America or something like that. It was just a very different experience. Also, being raised super religiously, I was raised in an environment where I learned how to Òspeak properly.Ó I learned that speaking up in the pulpit and public speaking, and my parents and everybody else were always talking about speaking proper Spanish, or properly whatever, and all these things and being in an environment where I was surrounded by people who didn't look like me.

I had lots of white classmates, maybe five, that were not in a class of maybe 31 girls. You had to learn to survive unless you wanted to feel super ostracized. I made my way through, but there was definitely a difference. I was just thinking about that and just that journey and that level of privilege and how it just recurrently comes to mind and how that could be really hard for some people.

[0:17:55] MD: I didn't realize how many advantages I had with respect to getting into graduate school until I served as the clinic coordinator at Francis Marion University. Dr Michelle Norman was my counterpart. Dr Norman was my motor speech disorders professor. She retired from Longwood University, and then Dr Burns recruited her back indefinitely. She was like, ÒNo, I'm tired.Ó I still have to call her Dr Norman. She's like, ÒJust call me Michelle.Ó I'm like, no, because I love her, and she's on the pedestal.

I was creating the clinic handbook for the program, and I was working through everything the students needed in order to start clinic rotations, and we started clinic rotations; you got to be ready to roll that first, second week of grad school, right? I needed background checks and I needed all of the titers, like you had to have proof that you had all of your vaccinations. This was 2020, 2021. We were deep steeped in COVID. Some practicum sites were shut down if you didn't have your COVID vaccines. Actually, 90% of them were. But anywho, all of these variables.

I had students that repeatedly did not have their documents together. Did not have this. Did not have this. It was almost exclusively my BIPOC students. I didn't understand why this was happening. I was like; they're going Ð they won't be able to start the practicums. They won't be able to start. Dr. Norman set me aside, and she goes, ÒTheyÕre learning how to navigate this. You know what needs to be done.Ó She was like, ÒDid you tell them where to go and how to do it?Ó I was like, ÒNo.Ó

[0:19:52] AP: Sometimes we need that. Yeah.

[0:19:53] MD: Yes, yes. She was like, ÒYou have to set them for success because most of these young ladies,Ó because it was all Ð the cohort was all young ladies at the time. She was like, ÒThey need support and scaffolding here.Ó Once I created a tool, another document and lay it out where to go and how to do, instant, all of them were thriving. I didn't know what I didn't know, and I'm not saying that that was indicative of all of the BIPOC students in the class, but a lot of them, just because they didn't have their parents and loved ones didn't have those experiences to help guide and mentor. It really challenged how I Ð it challenged me to grow, to help mentor colleagues, but did you consider this? Right? Yeah.

[0:20:57] AP: You mentioned that you didn't know what you didn't know. At the same time, they don't know what they don't know. It's like; no one knows anything at that point. It's like, yes, you have to ask. But if you don't know that you don't know, what are you going to do? You think that all of your affairs are in order. I was just thinking, like, me as someone who, I consider myself to be neurodivergent, and I benefit extremely from multimodal, laid out, very specific instructions. Even just in grad school, I've always been terrible at really long, broad assignment topics or just do whatever you want, but it has to be this. Those always stress me out so much.

One time I went to my professor in grad school, and I was like, ÒI need you to tell me exactly, explicitly what you want.Ó She just laughed at me. It was very hard because I was like, ÒI have no idea what you're expecting from me.Ó Sometimes it's just a matter of, like you said, like laying it out, or providing an example, or directing them to your resources, or just giving them that bullet point list of where they can find whatever, just so that they feel like they're being supported in all the different ways and that they can succeed. Because it was literally just me taking a glimpse at my classmatesÕ assignments like, ÒOh, you made it look like this. Okay, cool.Ó Now I knew what I was doing.

It wasn't me just explicitly copying what they were doing, but like, ÒHey, what does yours look like? Oh, okay. That's all she wants. Great.Ó Then me being able to feel confident in moving forward. It's just those little things that can make such a huge difference.

[0:22:33] MD: Yeah. It's strategies and support and scaffolding.

[0:22:37] AP: Mm-hmm. For sure.

[0:22:42] MD: Okay. Can you share with those that don't know your personal journey? I feel like, I mean, I do. But can you share with us what was it like for you to go from undergrad to grad?

[0:22:54] AP: I did not know that speech was such a competitive field, nor did I Ð

[0:23:02] MD: ItÕs hard for me sometimes. IÕm just laughing because, like, God, we can be mean humans. Continue.

[0:23:07] AP: Yes. Nor did I realize, I think, off the bat when I entered the major that to do the things that we would need a master's degree. I realized that towards the end, or somewhat in the middle. As I mentioned, my GPA was not great and I was struggling a lot academically to be able to prioritize and initiate and get my fairs in order. It got better as I went through college. But towards the end, I was getting the academic advisor saying, ÒWell, your grades may not be great, or it may not be good enough to get accepted into grad school. You may want to think about other options in terms of maybe working or retaking some courses and whatnot.Ó

Towards the end, BU, where I went to undergrad, has a five-year program. Lots of my classmates were applying to be in that, and we would be doing assignments, and they were talking about how they had to get all these recommendation letters and all these things. I was like, okay, this is not happening for me, because they were like, ÒYeah. I have a 3.8, and this professor, blah, blah, blah, blah.Ó I was just; this is not going to happen for me.

At the end of undergrad, I applied to be an SLPA, which is really, really easy in Massachusetts. I got my SLPA license, and I started working almost immediately in a little private practice that was close by. I did that for about nine months, and then I switched over to working in early intervention. Our catchment area was very, very high DCF referrals, Department of Children and Family. Lots of bilingual families and homes. Lots of no-shows. Lots of cancellations. Lots of trips to Target, where I got kids Ð I did that. Yes. I did that for about four years.

Halfway through, I was like, okay, of course, I got my mom in my ear like, ÒSo, when are you going to go back to school? If you stop ÐÓ Even before I didn't go to grad school, she was like, ÒIf you stop, it's going to be really hard to go back.Ó Halfway through, I was like, ÒOkay, let me think about what my options are for going back.Ó I started retaking courses one at a time, one or two at a time. I started taking one at a local community college. Not a community college. A local state college, maybe 40 minutes away. I would go to work and then whatever, two days a week, I would go to the school, or the one day a week. I donÕt remember what it was.

Then the next semester, I took two courses. Following semester, I took one course. I had to retake four courses total. They were all the ones that I got seasoned. I think it was audiology, natural. I mean, yeah, language acquisition, phonetics, and one more. I forget what it was. Maybe science or something.

[0:25:56] MD: Phonetics was Ð that was my hardest class. Yes.

[0:25:58] AP: That one I took online, so it wasn't as bad because it was asynchronous. Yeah, so I retook four courses. There's that financial and time commitment that a lot of people don't have. Luckily, my partner was super, super supportive. He's always been super supportive of me. I would do that after work, come back. Then came, okay, my courses are done. Now, I have to find all my transcripts and get all these things in order, so that's knowing to keep all those numbers and ID numbers handy, looking those things up, and then I started with my personal statement.

As you mentioned, I think I applied to five schools. I think it was three up Ð no. Four up north where I was, and then one that was an online school. I think it was Nova. I was planning because I went to a PWI because I didn't really do so well; I was really, really gunning to make my grad school experience a super successful one. I wanted to prove myself wrong. I wanted to do way better, but I also wanted a different experience. I was looking for HBCUs. I was looking for people that took a holistic approach to applications because I took my GREs, but I basically procrastinated and didn't study, but I did fine. I got an average score, but I didn't want to retake them.

I took them my last year of undergrad, and I did not want to retake them because I was approaching that five-year mark. I was like, ÒOkay, I did average. I did fine. I don't want to retake these.Ó I was really gunning to get in this first round. But my husband had just gotten a new job up north, and we had to stay up north. I was like, ÒSo, you're telling me I have to apply to all these schools up here.Ó That was BU, Emerson, MGH. Nearby was URI. Then I was like, okay, let me do an online or a couple of onlines. I was like, ÒOh, my gosh. This is going to be so bad.Ó

I did my essay. My essay was so stressful. I was crying. I hate writing. Creative writing, English was always my worst class. That was always my worst. I was super, super nervous about it, but I applied to those five, and I got into two of the five. I was like, ÒOkay. I guess we're starting grad school.Ó In between was lots of, obviously, stress. But I worked as an SLPA for basically four years/developmental specialist, and then retook four courses and then applied to schools. That's the in-between in how I got there. Lots of resume stuff and retaking of courses.

[0:28:38] MD: You said something very powerful in the holistic approach. A lot of people, unless you're in academia or you're currently going through the application process to graduate school, may not be aware of there's starting to be a turn in academia away from mandatory GRE scores. I have to think that this is a positive outgrowth of COVID, as well the awakening and the changes brought out of 2020, starting with George Floyd and that movement. It's that universities, including PWIs are predominantly white institutes, if you're not familiar with that acronym.

They're starting to recognize that there are initial racial barriers even getting into these colleges based upon the SAT scores and GRE scores, and what is the other one? ACT scores. A lot of these universities are starting to say, ÒHey.Ó I know that at FMU, we were part of that conversation, like, what are we going to do with our specific scores? What we did was, as a faculty, we voted to just accept them as an indicator of how does the student do with against a clock, thinking long-term for the practice exam, but it didn't have merit on their application process, which was huge.

It was, let's look at how did these students do with in between when they had time off between graduate school or undergrad in their application. What did they do with their time? Did they have real-life experiences? What you talked about that time as an SLPA, that is invaluable. That is, you're going to come into grad school with more clinical exposure experience and real-life application than a lot of your classmates. That's something. If you're listening and you're on faculty, we need that exposure and experience, and paper doesn't always capture how our colleagues will be successful, right? Yes.

[0:31:09] AP: Right. These tests back to your point about the test, I remember taking the SAT, which I did average on as well, but also, I didn't really study. Again, my mom's the go better. She just figures things out. She found this free course that she told me and my friend about, so both my friend and I were one of the only couple of black students in my high school. We both had some financial needs and so we went to go take this free course that was being held for SAT prep at this local church. It takes things like that. But then, once we got there, we were basically teaching the course to the other peers in the course.

It's like, what real, applicable, beneficial resources are there for people, where yes, it was a free course for me, but if I was one of the more knowledgeable students in the class and I'm teaching other students, what really am I learning or enhancing if that was the experience? Whereas, if I had gone to a formal paid SAT prep course, where they teach me how to test take specifically for the SAT, that maybe my peers got to do, I wonder how that would have differed in my performance. But like you said, I feel like there's such a nuance. Because, of course, paper can't tell you everything, but neither can an essay, and neither can an interview. Some people don't do well in interviews, and some people aren't great writers. It's like, what can we do?

It's really hard to think about what we can do to really maximize our application process to serve the strengths of people that are applying to school and maybe the obstacles that they're facing, whether it be I'm not a great writer or my resume isn't that packed, or my grades weren't that good. What are all the different ways we can, I don't know, help that process so that we're getting a really great round of people who are really, really dedicated to this, but just it just doesn't show in the application?

[0:33:17] MD: I don't have an answer.

[0:33:19] AP: Yeah, me either.

[0:33:21] MD: Yeah. I mean, but just holding the conversation and saying, ÒHey, this is what we're seeing.Ó Yeah, I don't know. I have seen change, and I've seen growth. IÕm optimistic that there will be changes big picture. I'm always optimistic unless I'm not, and then I'm murder-mad. I mean, we go between the two.

[0:33:45] AP: I usually lean towards the pessimistic side. Unless it's for other people, for other people, I'm greatly optimistic. For myself, not so much.

[0:33:55] MD: I would have told them that. They would have not. It's like, ÒUh.Ó The boys are like, ÒMom's murder-mad.Ó

[0:34:00] AP: Oh, no.

[0:34:02] MD: Currently, it's in all the appliances in the new house, but you know, weÕre going to be fine. WeÕre going to be fine. Okay. Also, on that note, squirrel, as I'm sitting here playing because I'm stimming neurodivergent, I found all of my hair ties when I moved. Couldn't find them anywhere in the house, but found Ð and I play with them. My husband was like, ÒHow do you have so many?Ó I was like, ÒI don't know.Ó But in the process of moving, I found all of my hair ties.

[0:34:30] AP: I'm very happy for you. I'm still looking for my shampoo since our move. My friend had to give me some samples.

[0:34:38] MD: That was like, ÒI donÕt know. It was brand-new, too, almost.Ó

[0:34:42] AP: I can't find it. Eventually.

[0:34:45] MD: That's great. We didn't lose the hamster. As long as we didn't lose the hamster Ð

[0:34:50] AP: That would be bad.

[0:34:52] MD: Yes. That's what we have. We inherited a couple of bunny rabbits, which we found in rescue and support. And a cat. There's a cat. People left behind a cat. I'm like, we could just ÐYeah, I don't know. I'm going to call him Toby.

[0:35:04] AP: A little petting, too.

[0:35:05] MD: I have a plan to adopt this outside cat.

[0:35:08] AP: That's what my father-in-law has done with the cat that they have outside their house. He just feeds it every day now. New cats.

[0:35:17] MD: Our little interview. Okay, so you made it into grad school. Can you talk to us about what your experiences were and barriers internally and how we can overcome these? I know we had questions assigned for this, but weÕve just Ð

[0:35:34] AP: Yes. We're doing it a little bit. Yeah, we got them. We've mentioned some of it in passing, and then we're good. I think we're good. I was back in Boston for grad school again. I went to Northeastern University for grad school. I didn't know what to expect. It was four years removed from undergrad. I knew that it would be tough, but that's when I retook those courses just to get back in the little tiny swing of things academically. I got there, and I was the only black person in my cohort, which is fine. Not fine, but I'm used to that, but it doesn't really intimidate me much at all.

But I got there, and I'm the type of person that's usually very social, very much extrovert, and I have no issues trying to establish those relationships or just talk to people, whether it be professors, or students, or whatever. Once I got to grad school, it was mostly just that academic brain anxiety barrier that I had to cross, like what is it going to be like? What are the expectations going to be like? For me, the anxiety was hard to get over at first. My first neuro quiz, oh, my gosh. I cried in class, after we got it back, or after I took it. While I was taking it, I was crying. After the class, my professor set me aside and was like, ÒAre you okay? You can't leave here until you're okay.Ó But it was those kinds of things that I appreciated.

I'm such an open book, and I just try to be so vulnerable; I think that's part of my neurodivergence as well. I just do that at baseline so that other people will do the same to me. Especially on my Instagram, the amount of times people have seen me cry on my Instagram during grad school was probably upwards of 10.

[0:37:25] MD: But we need that.

[0:37:28] AP: Yeah. I was always just that person that was just telling people how it was. If you ask me how I'm doing, I'm going to answer you honestly. Grad school went pretty okay. Being the only black person in my cohort wasn't anything that really like I said, intimidated me much. But I did see the differences, like you mentioned, when it came to having clinical experience and knowing how to write clinically or knowing how to speak to clients or parents. People that came without that knowledge, they were like, ÒWait, I'm so nervous.Ó Or like, ÒWait, what do I do?Ó That was something that if you do have that clinical experience, or you do have that work experience, then you have that leg up when it comes to, even just talking to your professors, or discussing concerns, or writing a soap note. It may not take you two hours. It might take you Ð because of course, it had to be two pages long, the soap knows. It might take you 30 minutes.

[0:38:25] MD: Okay. I just got to say, but why? Okay.

[0:38:27] AP: Why?

[0:38:29] MD: Why? Why do we have to Ð

[0:38:30] AP: It's taking me five minutes now.

[0:38:32] MD: No. In the real world no. Do you see me? I'm clapping my hands because I'm pissy about this. No insurance company wants to see 14 goals, and no physician wants to see 14 goals. Also, we cover that in three months.

[0:38:50] AP: No.

[0:38:51] MD: Prioritize. Make it Ð

[0:38:53] AP: In 30 minutes a session.

[0:38:54] MD: Yes. I don't think as a clinical supervisor, I should be asking my students to write a three-page soap note, or I need it short, sweet, consolidated. I need to know that you can capture the information in a brief, brief synopsis. If I want to see what your skill set is, then write that. Write notes on the side, but not for what I'm submitting to the insurance. You see the difference?

[0:39:27] AP: Or, just have more time one on one to have those discussions, so that Ð

[0:39:31] MD: Conversations.

[0:39:33] AP: Because again, it might need some additional elaborating, or they might not be able to Ð so you can talk it out in person. Dedicating that time to truly test or examine their knowledge face-to-face, versus just a 10-page soap note every week.

[0:39:48] MD: Yes. But also, that's not realistic. I want to set the next generation up for functionality. This is what a functional soap and it's going to look like.

[0:40:01] AP: Yeah. No, I get you.

[0:40:02] MD: I feel very strongly about that, but continue.

[0:40:04] AP: Yeah. No, I agree. Grad school. My biggest thing that I wanted to prepare myself for in grad school was setting myself up with resources. That's one of the big things that I tell people. Even before I got to grad school, I was looking things up. I was looking up NBASLH.
That's the National Black Association for Speech Language, and Hearing. I was looking up SISTA, so Sisters in Speech Therapy and Audiology. I was looking up ASHA resources. I was looking up all the things. I was like, ÒAll right, let me get involved,Ó even if it was just my tiny student membership, I was like, ÒI know this exists. It's here. Let me follow what they're doing. Let me do whatever.Ó

My first year, my school actually sponsored me to go to NBASLH. I got to go, and it was here in Charlotte, funny enough. That was super great because like as I mentioned before, I wanted that HBCU experience. I wanted to go to a historically black college or university for grad school, but it just didn't happen. But also, just being, like many of us are, just the only person, or one of the few over and over and over again, there's just such a level of comfort. Of course, I'm comfortable. Me personally, I'm comfortable in these spaces usually. It's not really something that's internally discomforting, but I wanted to have that space for once, where I could go and be with people that looked like me, that were experiencing this also, that were going through grad school that maybe didn't have the resources, or didn't have the knowledge, and they still made it through, or they were making it through.

Especially because once I started my Instagram, I was making so many connections with people. I was like, I just want to keep connecting with people, whether it be just like, ÒHey, I'll see you this conference and never see you again,Ó or IÕll make a new friend. That's one of the big things I love. I love conferences. I love social events. I was like, ÒI want to go.Ó That was a really nice experience to go to.

I also went to ASHA when it was in Boston that year, too. I served as our president for our NISLA chapter. It's like [inaudible 0:42:19] at Northeastern. That was another experience, again, where I found myself to be out here offering to volunteer, offering to help in the department, doing okay academically. Of course, I might not have been the smartest, but I was doing okay. I had good connections with the teachers. I had good placements. That was because I intentionally did that because I wanted to set myself up for success. I wanted to put my name out there so that they kept me in consideration for these placements.

From the beginning, I was like, ÒI want this specific placement, so I'm going to put my name in there, and I'm going to connect with this professor, and I'm going to try to do my best academically so that they can consider me.Ó It takes those little things, and that people don't necessarily know that right off the bat, or they don't maybe have the confidence to, or they don't just have the natural disposition to do so. For me, that was something that my mom instilled in me and it's just part of my personality. If you don't have that personality, or you're seen as standoffish, or you're judged as XYZ, partially because of maybe your racial ethnic background, because you're othered, then sometimes that can put you at a disadvantage. I feel like that happens a lot with students, where they're just judged as being maybe having an attitude, or just being too quiet, or Òtoo quiet,Ó or not being as social or as professional.

Unfortunately, I feel like it happens a lot, where they miss out on opportunities because of judgments that maybe people place on them, which is not fair. Because if you're not out here talking to every and everybody like I am and putting your name in the hat from the beginning, then maybe that doesn't work out in your favor. I feel like there are lots of barriers that have come up that I've thought of, at least. There's palatable blackness. That's what I consider myself to be, because there's Ð I feel like, there's that Ð not the token black person, because that that's a little bit different, right? But if you speak a certain way, if you hold yourself Ð if you carry yourself a certain way, if you don't cause any issues, then you are given more opportunities. You are given more space, versus if you are perceived to have an attitude, or youÕre perceived to be standoffish, or you fight back against certain things, and you advocate for yourself, or you advocate for other students, or you have a certain dialect, or you're not as social, or professional as they would like you to be, then you're judged and perceived to be a certain way.

I feel like there's definitely lots of levels of privilege and just your natural disposition, and the way you speak and things like that on top of financial and academic literacy and all those things that have come up. That was my experience in grad school. It actually went really well. I had a really great group of friends, too, and I Ð It was a really good experience. Definitely, little microaggressions that I would experience about my hair, or about my nails, or about anything that I said. If I said something in AE, someone might comment on it and be like, ÒReally?Ó I was like, ÒYes.Ó Things like that that would come up.

Not that it affected me super internally or deeply. But it's there, and it's acknowledged internally. I know what's happening in the moment. ItÕs. Definitely, I see what's happening here. That it affected me greatly to impact my performance in grad school? No. But that's not the case for everybody. There are definitely people where it impacts them greatly, and it impacts their grades, it impacts their mental health. What is that doing to retain our students and help them succeed? Because I know so many people who have gone through grad school, who are of marginalized communities, who have left the field because of their mental health issues, or burnout, or just realizing that this isn't for them. I wonder if having better support or if the field as a whole were less burnout-y right now. I guess, at the time, or at the time, I wonder if things would have changed. I wonder if, I don't know, something would have made a difference.

Because some people are leaving the tech, too. That's a big thing. Most people that know that they left to tech fields. I was like, ÒOh, wow.Ó Yeah, that was my experience. It was actually a really good one. I enjoyed it a lot. I know that that's not the case for everybody, especially if you're out of PWI.

[0:47:33] MD: I did my grad program online, so I had a very different. Yeah, back in the day, dude. I was an original online person. Mine was very difficult, just because I was married to my first husband and he was very violent. I had a lot of domestic abuse going on at home, which is always, it takes people away, because when they see me, they don't anticipate me having a domestic abuse situation. I'm like, ÒNo, I'm alive because I took the bullets out of the gun one night and hid all of the bullets.Ó

If I smell cheap cologne, it puts me right back in. I mean, right? There's a certain with. I'm like, ÒOh, yes.Ó I think on that note, I always open up with that with the students because we don't know what's going on in the studentsÕ personal lives. Mental health matters, and it matters more than what people are comfortable acknowledging. There is so much ageism within that because I mean, I watch my mother-in-law struggle with hers, to be frank. She refuses to go get help because that's how she was raised. Women of her stature, you handled it. Then there's two generations later, or however many generations in between. I'm like, no. We have to lead by example. We have to hold these conversations and create safe spaces so that our colleagues and the students that are mentoring, the students that were inspiring, they know that Ð

Honestly, I feel like if we're not in a good space, then we're not going to be able to adequately serve those that were called to treat. That's much less; how can you do your day today? How can you support yourself? I went through that with privilege and support. When I finally came forward to my family and left and got out, it was in my CF. I think I was two months into my CF when I got out, which made for one heck of a CF ride.

Not to mention that clinical fellow mentor showed up would ask me to purchase Mary Kay and then sign up on my document. I bought a lot of Mary Kay. I cannot make it up. I cannot make it up.

[0:50:29] AP: Not Mary Kay.

[0:50:31] MD: Mary Kay, man. She did not try the pink Cadillac. I'm just saying.

[0:50:36] AP: My goodness.

[0:50:37] MD: Okay. For those of you that don't know how Mary Kay works, it's a Ð you have to sell so much products, then Mary Kay gives you a pink Cadillac, but whatever. Anywho Ð

[0:50:46] AP: Oh, my gosh.

[0:50:48] MD: There is wearing the hats that I have worn, I have had to remove studentsÕ names from clinical applications, because I knew that if their names were on the document when I submitted for rotations, I knew they wouldn't even be selected for an interview.

[0:51:07] AP: Why was that? What made you think that?

[0:51:11] MD: Because I knew the supervisors. Not the clinical supervisors but their supervisors that would see the first round of rotations. We had to have conversations because there was inherent racism. I'll call it what it was. It was racism. As that generation has retired and moved out, it has improved. Also, as an external clinical supervisor, I've had to remove prior to come sites because of racism.

[0:51:45] AP: That's what it takes though because how many people are not doing that, and then just letting them continue.

[0:51:52] MD: Murder mad, did you see? It's right there. It gets hot. Then youÕre like, squish it Michelle, squish it but have you ever seen Teen Titans Go? I promise this is relevant.

[0:52:05] AP: I have not.

[0:52:06] MD: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You need Teen Titans Go. I think I'm moving, like mysterious. But my boys say I'm Starfire, because she's really happy all the time until she shoots lasers out of her eyes. I'm like, ÒYou're right. I am Starfire.Ó But I don't know. Raven has a cool cloak and she can fly, but whatever, anywho. Teen Titans Go. Now I'm singing the song in my head. I don't have ADHD.

[0:52:29] AP: Story of my life.

[0:52:33] MD: But we have to do that. We have to go through. I have removed entire health care systems, small healthcare systems from the mix. Because I don't want to go mama mode for my students, but we have to protect them.

[0:52:55] AP: You do. Yeah.

[0:52:57] MD: When the sites come back and say, ÒHow come we don't have any students?Ó Then we have to diplomatically explain the last several students that attended practicum sites there, or the last student that attended, there were concerns. We've discussed them and you have to be brave enough to hold the conversation with that individual. I mean, hell, I've removed them in the middle of their site to find other sites, because that's what's safe. Because I'm responsible for ensuring that these students have a healthy and also, joyful experience, right?

[0:53:40] AP: Right. You can't learn when you're dysregulated or in fight or flight mode. That's not conducive to learning at all.

[0:53:49] MD: Microaggressions will trigger fight or flight or fawn. IsnÕt that the other one?

[0:53:53] AP: Yeah. I think there are four, right? Three or four.

[0:53:55] MD: Yes.

[0:53:56] AP: Of different ways.

[0:53:58] MD: Fawn, freeze.

[0:53:58] AP: Fawn and freeze. Yes.

[0:54:00] MD: Yes. What do we do? Well, we learn better. We do better. We acknowledge when we've screwed up. I mean, God knows. I look back on my Ð and I'm like, ÒOh, I shouldn't have said that. Why did I think that?Ó I have had to grow and have conversations. Also, [inaudible 0:54:16], if you're listening, thank you. This is how we make it better, and we pay it forward. I went to NBASLH this year.

[0:54:30] AP: I know. I'm so jealous. I wanted to go so badly. 

[0:54:35] MD: We're in Valley. I joined.

[0:54:37] AP: I know. I know. I told my boss. I told my boss. I was like, ÒWe're going.Ó

[0:54:42] MD: IÕm like, ÒYes.Ó I'm trying to get, SpeechTherapyPD had a booth there this year.

[0:54:45] AP: Right, right. Yeah.

[0:54:47] MD: Yes. You mean, Sumi, we're there. Also, oh, my God. We found the greatest Thai restaurant. I am now convinced Sumi are responsible for finding every restaurant we eat at wherever we go because I'm just like, ÒWhat's the closest? I'm exhausted.Ó They're like, ÒWe're walking. This is what we're eating tonight.Ó I'm like; they're foodies. I'm good.

There was a lecture by two women, and Ð My box of stuff is boxed because I have all my speech pathology stuff in the corner to take to the new office. But, Dr Tova, I believe, was the first Ð She had a professor that was Ð and I'm so sorry. I don't remember their names. I will circle back to it. But they were talking about how they created small groups. It wasn't an NBASLH chapter, but you can have an NBASLH chapter. Like an NSLH chapter, you can have an NBASLH chapter. I learned that one from Dr Kia.

Dr Tova was talking about how they created just a BIPOC group led by, excuse me, the BIPOC professors and created a safe space to support. She was this really critical at PWIs. They shared all this intensive research. I had to raise my hand because the universities that I have worked at, we might have only had one or two black students. Maybe, how do we do that? Or how do we go about it if we don't have a black faculty member? Which is a very whole other conversation. One of the other faculty members in the audience raised their hand. What they did was they opened up a group not just for the speech pathology department but to the entire health science department.

[0:56:48] AP: Right. That's what I would say. Or to both undergrad and grad students. Then you also have that level of mentorship that's being passed down. But yeah. Then there's that whole issue. Let's not even get into HBCUs, where the cohorts are entirely white, because that happens as well at the grad level. But no. That's an issue like I mentioned. I have not had a black teacher ever in my life, ever. It's like, to have that is such a privilege and honor. I can only imagine having that.

For students to not even have that, and to not even have another person in their cohort where they can feel some sort of camaraderie based off of race, or language, or ethnicity, or whatever, that's so difficult. I feel like having those groups Ð because they have SISTAs groups and they have NBASLH groups, and then they have Ð you can have regional NBASLH groups as well. That's such a great resource for students. Like you mentioned, such a safe space where they can, especially if they have that faculty member to share that with, where they can voice their concerns in a safe space and know that there won't be any retribution or consequences that will affect them professionally or academically, because that happens.

Students, even at the grad level, are penalized unfairly, randomly, because of saying something, or mentioning something, or advocating for themselves, like I said. But yeah, that's so great that you found out about that because being able to facilitate that at any level, I think, is such a great idea.

[0:58:46] MD: You said penalize, and you triggered a thought. Dr Norman gave me some of the best advice. Not everybody is going to be full-time faculty, right? It's not going to happen. But a lot of us have the joy of being adjunct. I've done adjunct work, and that's amazing. One of the recommendations she gave to support students, especially students that don't have the academic literacy was to make the most detailed syllabus you can come up with. Just like you were talking about, no, don't tell me be broad. Give me specifics.

[0:59:25] AP: Specific instructions. Yeah.

[0:59:29] MD: I internally have to balance that in my brain with, I like to choose your own adventure. I always love those books. One of my assignments was, okay, so I want you to pick a pediatric feeding disorders myth and then bust it, and then laid out my points. I only listed a couple, but I didn't list the specific myths. I had several students really struggled with picking a myth. But to me, that's your final assignment. We've talked about this all semester. I was like, ÒOh, no. This is a learning opportunity.Ó

If I saw my students struggling with how to select and how to format, then I need to be very more specific in the next iteration of the syllabus. That's part of being a lifelong learner is structuring down to Ð and if you make sure how your grading is very explicit, then it will help eliminate bias.

[1:00:43] AP: Yeah, bias can come everywhere. Everywhere. Even, like you mentioned, it can happen as you create a syllabus, because you assume XYZ.

[1:00:53] MD: Yes.

[1:00:55] AP: I feel like people underestimate how much bias is ingrained in literally everything we do.

[1:00:58] MD: We do.

[1:00:59] AP: I don't think people understand. It comes down even to that or the way that you word certain things. I am the type I used to be mad at this type of communication, then I realized that I also do it, so I was like, okay. I give the background information to everything and I will say things one, two, three times within the same monologue because I want to make sure that people understand what I'm saying. ThatÕs just like, when people talk to you, and sometimes they have this assumption that you have background information, or you're going to understand what they're saying, it's like, it's just everywhere. But that's something I experienced as well.

Even in undergrad. In undergrad and in grad school. My name is very, well, right now, my name is very flat. There's not really much racial or ethnic indication of what I am. But in undergrad, people didn't know that I was fully Dominican until they heard me speak Spanish. One person didn't know I spoke Spanish, or that I was Dominican until two years into undergrad, when they heard me speaking on the phone with my mom. Then same thing in grad school, some people didn't know that I was Hispanic either, but they make this assumption.

Or, once they found out, then they're like, ÒOh, so you're not really black.Ó There's that thought process for some people where in lessens, or it invalidates somehow my experience, which I understand. That's a whole other conversation that I'm sure you might have had with Jackie at some point. Her and I talk about it. We've given presentations on this, too, about the nuances about race in Latin America. Yeah, I feel like you said, being a lifelong learner and being open to understanding your biases is really, really important, and that's just the baseline of what people should try to strive for.

[1:03:12] MD: Yes. Okay.

[1:03:17] AP: I know weÕre running out of time.

[1:03:17] MD: I know. Okay, so one, can you come back and Ð

[1:03:23] AP: Yes. 

[1:03:25] MD: Can you and Jackie come back on? Because I feel like you Ð

[1:03:27] AP: Oh.

[1:03:29] MD: Erin and I, the four of us. One, we have to make [inaudible 1:03:31] through the line, but a pass.

[1:03:34] AP: Yes. Let's hope. I feel like our Jackie in my years are finally Ð I know Jackie's year is winding down. She had lots of things going on. Hopefully. That would be so fun. I'm going to text her right now. Like, ÒMichelle says we should do it together.Ó That'd be so fun, especially with Erin, because I missed her today.

[1:03:54] MD: I was so sad, but yes, she got a promotion, so she had a great day. I'm so proud of her. There's 10 years between the two of us, so I'm old enough to be her big sister and now old enough to be your mom. Everybody needs a friend that's 10 years older to tell you about the menopause and the perimenopause, and the laffy-tappy nipples when you're done breastfeeding.

[1:04:18] AP: Don't tell me this. Oh.

[1:04:23] MD: I'll be quiet now. They're like, ÒWait. No, Michelle. If you want to know about that.Ó No, we'll do a whole another episode on that.

[1:04:29] AP: We'll do that. Yeah. Oh, I got my CBS.

[1:04:33] MD: Did you really?

[1:04:35] AP: Yes. Now I'm trying to get into some lactation. I'm trying to find opportunities for that to Ð I know that there's a little ledge a leak here and then there's a couple other things. Hopefully, I can get involved in that stuff.

[1:04:48] MD: Awesome. Folks, if you're listening and you're an SLP and you have your CLCs, advice, unsolicited advice, reach out to the pediatricians, because we are equally equipped at working with children that have genetic conditions, perinatal CBAs. We're really equipped at reaching those mommies that are wanting, even if they can't breastfeed, we can still encourage chest feeding. They can encourage that. Oh, my heart.

[1:05:17] AP: Yeah, if that's what they want, yeah, for sure.

[1:05:22] MD: This was lovely. Okay, wait. Before we go, if somebody has mad money or a little bit of love money lying around at the end of the month, do you have a place you would like for them to donate to?

[1:05:33] AP: Yes. One, I would look into your local, or your nearest, or your alma mater's speech program because I'm sure that they can always take scholarship money. Then NBASLH. Any BIPOC, marginalized SLP that you can think of. There are so many people, but I won't name-drop just to not leave anybody out. SISTAs. Any other mentorship program. BEAM is a bilingual empowerment through allied mentorship program. I know that one of my other peers has heart-to-heart mentorship program. Yeah, I feel like, any of those things. If you are so inclined, I am a presenter and contributor for Credit. But if you do want to do that work and invest your money and support people, Credit has amazing courses. I took one last year. I donÕt remember if it was last year, or the year before. But yeah.

They offer CEUs. But yeah, all of those things are really great to support. If it's just buying somebody a SIG, like one of my mentors did that for me and I was like, ÒWow, this was really great.Ó Just pay for their SIG, especially if they're in grad school, it's $15. Buy them more than one SIG, or pay for Ð I've had people offer to pay for conferences for me. I'm just like, ÒWhat?Ó I'm about to start crying thinking about it, but those little things are paying for their, whatchamacallit? Are paying for their NISLA membership, or something? Buying them a coffee.

Think of anybody who you've learned from, or who you'd love to support, or who you want to learn more from and then just little gestures like that go such a long way. I remember when people do that. I remember and it means so much when people make those little gestures of kindness. Even if it's just buying somebody a SIG, Cash Apping them, or Venmoing them like, ÒHey, here's your SIG.Ó Especially new grad students, give them all the love.

[1:07:42] MD: Folks, I am on the board of trustees for the Virginia Communication Disorder Foundation. Donate there to support a student within Virginia, and near and dear to my heart, the Sharonda Coleman Memorial Scholarship in South Carolina, which supports a student from a minority background in South Carolina that wants to be a speech pathologist.

[1:08:09] AP: ThatÕs awesome.

[1:08:10] MD: Please donate there. Yes. Okay, everybody, find us on the land of the Insta, @firstbitepodcast, and @theblackyspeechie. Am I right?

[1:08:19] AP: @Theblackspeechie, yes.

[1:08:20] MD: It's a blacky speechie, double XPT. What are the Ð

[1:08:23] AP: I know. I love spoonerisms.

[1:08:25] MD: Yes, yes. Everybody, thank you, thank you. Amanda, hold tight. This was awesome. Thank you.

[1:08:31] AP: Yes. Thank you

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[1:08:35] MD: Feeding Matters guides system-wide changes by uniting caregivers, professionals, and community partners under the Pediatric Feeding Disorder Alliance. What is this alliance? The alliance is an open-access collaborative community, focused on achieving strategic goals within three focus areas; education, advocacy, and research.

Who is the Alliance? It's you. The Alliance is open to any person passionate about improving care for children with a pediatric feeding disorder. To date, 187 professionals, caregivers and partners have joined the alliance. You can join today by visiting the Feeding Matters website at www.feedingmatters.org. Click on PFD Alliance tab and sign up today. Change is possible when we work together.

[OUTRO]

[1:09:27] MD: That's a wrap folks. Once again, thank you for listening to First Bite: Fed, Fun, and Functional. I'm your humble, but yet, sassy host, Michelle Dawson, the All-Things PFDs SLP.

This podcast is part of a course offered for continuing education through speechtherapypd.com. Please check out the website if you'd like to learn more about CEU opportunities for this episode, as well as the ones that are archived. As always, remember, feed your mind, feed your soul, be kind, and feed those babies.

[END]
FBP 246		Transcript

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