TINT Podcast Recording Audio-Adams Cummings_090420
[00:00:00]Cecelia Taylor: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Thriving and Technology podcast. That is to say, TinT, your hosts are Sam Moulton and Cecelia Taylor. And today we're going to be talking about something that's a little bit different and something that's a little difficult to talk about. How to get better at having courageous conversations about diversity.
[00:00:22] It is our pleasure to be joined by two amazing women. Nadine Cummings and Mercedes Adams. 
[00:00:28] Sam Moulton: [00:00:28] Welcome. 
[00:00:29] Cecelia Taylor: [00:00:29] Let's start by first, having you introduce yourselves to our listener and tell them how they can find you on the social sphere. 
[00:00:38] Nadine Cummings: [00:00:38] Okay. Thank you very much, Cecelia. It is a pleasure to be here. This is Nadine Cummings.
[00:00:44] Hi everyone. I am a technical evangelist in the technical realm. right now I am, Part of the team that helps to enable and, really give folks understanding about the modern [00:01:00] data center and where they lie. So you can catch me at ms. Underscore Cummings and my Z underscore Cummings on Twitter.
[00:01:11]Mercedes Adams: [00:01:11] I Cecelia. Hi Sam. Thanks for having me and hello to the audience as well. My name is Mercedes Adams. I am working in technology, and, focused on employee education and professional development. I am on Twitter. You can find me at Mercedes underscore Adams and, we'll see you out in the social 
[00:01:32] Cecelia Taylor: [00:01:32] sphere.
[00:01:33] Thank you, Mercedes. And thank you, Nadine for joining us. Today's topic was a little bit different than what we've done in the past, because we really felt that we wanted to talk about having conversations that sometimes are a little bit more difficult than the conversations that we typically have.
[00:01:54]We are living in the days of COVID and, we're going through many things that are happening within [00:02:00] the United States and around the world. And there are some issues that have come up that  hit a little close to home. w for me, yeah, had a relevant moment. and I have to thank Sam, really for helping me have that moment. 
[00:02:15] I've always had very strong opinions and always felt very strongly in this area, specifically as it relates to being a woman and also being a black woman, in particular,. but I never felt the need to really share my voice about how I really felt or my opinion in the matter.
[00:02:36]but then there've been several events that have happened over the last few months, and really that really struck a nerve and really struck home. And I was having a conversation with Sam and while I was having the conversation with Sam, another friend of mine on one of those social networks that starts with the face, mentioned that she said, if you don't speak [00:03:00] now, when will you speak?
[00:03:02] When will you speak up? so if you have a voice, you need to use that voice. A lot of times we think our influence because I don't have a million followers or I don't have a whole bunch of folks following me that we don't have the ability to affect how. Change or even be able to speak and that's not true.
[00:03:20] We all have influence in some type of way. So how do you use your voice? How do you use your influence to have some conversations with some colleagues and friends that may be a little different that maybe take a little bit more courage to have any who that's my perspective. I'm going to ask 'em. Maybe let you know, 
[00:03:46]Sam Moulton: [00:03:46] Before we go Cecelia, you were giving credit to me for, something and I don't know exactly what that was.
[00:03:55] Cecelia Taylor: [00:03:55] See Sam. 
[00:03:58] Sam Moulton: [00:03:58] Yeah, 
[00:04:01] [00:04:00] Cecelia Taylor: [00:04:01] Sam and I were having a conversation. online, there were, there are all kinds of things it's happening in the news. I think this may have even gone back to May 25th, when, George Floyd was killed. And, the reactions, the protests, the violence in the street, the, the movement that seemed to grow out of that  m oment and, we were having a conversation and something very jarring happened to the conversation. And this is my friend, this is my cohost, this is my partner in NetApp crime.-- We're having this conversation and. she shared a video with me that I completely disagreeing with that I completely disagree with this particular, person on.  And even though she's my skin folk, she not my kin folk. That's how we started having the conversation. 
[00:04:50] What you say Nadine? 
[00:04:53] Nadine Cummings: [00:04:53] I was going to say who it is? Who are we talking about? let's give, let the audience 
[00:04:59] Sam Moulton: [00:04:59] here, [00:05:00] who we talking about? I'll share because I'm the one who messed up. it was a video of Whoopi Goldberg talking about her perspective on the demonstrations and the unrest and I was under this ridiculous impression that if you have the same skin color, you are going to share an opinion. And I know I'm saying that out loud now I realize how ridiculous that is. But I wanted to show Cecelia that I understood her. I understood how she felt. And so I, or a video about a rich black woman talking about the destruction of property.
[00:05:39]I look back on that now and I just cringe, but it's the whole reason that we're doing this podcast because I did not know what I didn't know. I want to know. I don't want to make those errors anymore. I don't want to offend someone because she was pissed at me. She was, she just was not happy that [00:06:00] I had misread the situation, So dressing exactly. 
[00:06:03] Mercedes Adams: [00:06:03] Isn't it great that your friends and you could have that conversation. 
[00:06:07]Sam Moulton: [00:06:07] that is absolutely lately. another reason we're here it's because she has been helping me. She's been coaching me. She is my, my mentor when it comes to having these difficult conversations. And I know Mercedes, you have a mentor as well.
[00:06:23] Yeah. I don't know if you want to share. I know. 
[00:06:26] Mercedes Adams: [00:06:26] So tell you what actually invited me into the conversation. So I'll pause. I will share it that I have a mentor, but I want to go back to Nadine because I think we jumped in to give a little bit of grounding of why are we here having this conversation?
[00:06:38] I know Cecelia was going to invite you in Nadine. 
[00:06:42] Nadine Cummings: [00:06:42] I'm so sorry. What, where am I now? Because we have so many topics to touch, right? So I'm not sure if it's one where we're addressing. Was this a question on, were you inviting or with affiliate inviting me into the [00:07:00] conversation about. how folks have different views or what was it, Mercedes that was a touching point for you?
[00:07:08] Cecelia Taylor: [00:07:08] I think my response, 
[00:07:09] Mercedes Adams: [00:07:09] well, and for me, it was just the observation that, Cecelia was going to take the conversation to you. Cecelia. I was waiting for you to say, here's where we go next, but this is the that I'm observing this right. Is, Sam and I could totally monopolize the conversation. And that's a risk that happens at work every day.
[00:07:28] And so I'm consciously pausing even though in a podcast, the natural flow, like just keep the dialogue going. but I wanted to resist to telling my story because  that invited to tell your story. And so that I'll just be really transparent of why's Mercedes putting up a stop sign, saying time out.
[00:07:45] Redirect. 
[00:07:46]Cecelia Taylor: [00:07:46] how did we get to the point where we're having this conversation? So my story was really simply about saying this interchange that I had with Sam.
[00:07:56] I care about Sam. We get along very well and I value [00:08:00] the relationship and because I value that relationship, I wasn't going to just simply ignore it and move on. This was a conversation we needed to have. So it's what brings us to the point of having the conversation? I know that she and I talk every day, but the question is what brings you to this particular conversation that is where we're even discussing the concept of having courageous conversations.
[00:08:29] Nadine Cummings: [00:08:29] right. honestly the weight 2020 has been such an eventful year. it's just ridiculous. It's just off the chain in terms of our, off the charts, in terms of the amount of events that have happened, from going from COVID to be in lockdown to the amount of deaths that have happened to, to a black man being murdered on camera.
[00:08:54] In front of an audience. And that sparked, I think just the [00:09:00] unrest, lessness the uneasy, the frustration, and that lack people has gone through, but also the level of frustration. I think of young people we see the March is not only being led by black folks, but by white folks, people of color Brown. Yellow Brown, dark Brown, whatever.
[00:09:21] A lot of young folks just taking the mantle to say enough is enough. And now, we've got nothing else to do, but watch we're in lockdown. We've got nothing else to talk about what's happening. And it's amazing. the events that have transpired that. Are making folks stop. lockdown is making us stop.
[00:09:44] The fact that we're home is making us stop and listen, and watch. And so now corporations have now been tasked with what are you going to do about it? And so we are having this discussion on many different levels [00:10:00] at the state level, the city level, the 
[00:10:03] corporate level in home. Yeah. my son is five, right?
[00:10:07] So he was born when Obama was president. Do you know what it's like to say to you? Hey, we have the first black president and he's what does that even mean? And so we're having this discussion because it's overdue. my five-year-old is asking what is that slavery? Everybody's eyes get big. 
[00:10:27] Sam Moulton: [00:10:27] What. 
[00:10:28]Nadine Cummings: [00:10:28] I don't know what slavery is. Yes, because he's five 
[00:10:32] Sam Moulton: [00:10:32] because he's five, 
[00:10:32] Nadine Cummings: [00:10:32] right? He was born in a different time. And so now we are reintroducing the subject to him and trying to help him understand how to digest it as he gets older. What does this mean for young white children?
[00:10:44] What does it mean for young Spanish children? What does it mean for young Indian children and Asian? And then the list goes on and on as this age, we are having this conversation because it is overdue.
[00:10:56]Cecelia Taylor: [00:10:56] But one of the things about , having conversations like [00:11:00] this is sometimes people aren't always comfortable because of some very legitimate, fears. And I know that Sam and Mercedes, you both have had perspectives on how you felt approaching this. So can you talk to us a little bit about, your fears or your concerns?
[00:11:21] Mercedes Adams: [00:11:21] Yeah, and I appreciate the invitation, Cecelia to share a little bit because, I think it was a bit of a journey for me to realize, that I needed to honestly embrace the discomfort, because there is that natural sense. the hard part about talking about racism, as a white woman is I'm going to make mistakes. 
[00:11:46] I'm not eloquent. It's enough every day, the way that I want to be authentic and to connect and to even listen the way that I need to. and I've been on this [00:12:00] evolution of, embracing diversity at work. And I haven't thought about it always consistently. and I've been working in tech for over 20 years.
[00:12:09] And I looked around and realized there weren't a lot of women, but I didn't do anything about it until the last year, a couple of years. And then I didn't really think about underrepresented minorities in technology until, as Sam mentioned earlier, I had a mentor who pulled me in and said, Mercedes, you could spend time over here with historically black colleges and universities.
[00:12:28] Could you spend more time thinking about how we recruit amazing talent, that doesn't look like you. and so I, on this journey, I've had a lot of help to get to, being more comfortable, but that piece, that fear of saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing, not having the context. I remember sitting down, in a restaurant in Jackson, Mississippi with four black women explaining to me what it would feel like to not be able to rent an apartment because of the color of their [00:13:00] skin.
[00:13:00] And that wasn't something that I even internalized at the time, because this was a couple of years ago. And then you come to 2020 and everything that Nadine just shared. 
[00:13:10] I had a superficial understanding of what it's like to be black in America. And in the last few months, I think it has dawned on me that it's really hard to talk about racism.
[00:13:23] There are so many benefits to talking about racism because racism won't change unless we start to have a conversation and I own my role in making a change. I don't expect black Americans to change racism. And so this is something that it took me a long time to realize that I need to open my eyes.
[00:13:44] I need to understand, I need to educate myself and I need to connect more. And so that's just a piece of where I am on the journey. And I'll say, and do things that, you can see I'm practicing. And that's why I really love the feedback and the encouragement and Hey, that's wrong, right?
[00:14:00] [00:14:00] Let me help you, let me help guide you. and acknowledging that's also a burden that I'm asking, my black coworkers to help me down a path of awareness. there's also, there's a need, there's a burden. there's that struggle, for me. And I think that. I'm just waking up to and realizing more and more every day, how much work needs to be done.
[00:14:23] So I want to pause there and let Sam jump in and share a little bit of perspective too. Cause I know we're both on this journey. 
[00:14:30]Sam Moulton: [00:14:30] Yes we are. And there was a time when I would have told you that I didn't need to be on the journey. Maybe there were a few things I didn't really understand, like I can't even think of an example right now, but what 2020 has done for me is really exposed my ignorance and my lack of awareness and my. I guess, the beliefs that I've held, 
[00:14:56] I'm married to a black man, I thought I was like, I [00:15:00] had it nailed. I must understand racism because, we already talked about the fact that I sent that horrible video to Cecelia and that really sparked the beginning of.  my desire to really get in. And I don't know if I can say the word, fix it. I don't know if you can fix it, but I want to become more aware. I want to be more thoughtful. I want to, B. willing to screw up. I didn't realize I was screwing up with Cecelia, but she's forgiven me.
[00:15:38] I've, I'm using that as a lesson, but,  very much want to be comfortable having these conversations. I wanna, I want to know it, I would love to mentor someone, I'd love to be in that position where I have come to a point where I understand it well enough and I'll tell you what my aha moment was.
[00:16:00] [00:16:00] And that was, there's a lot of stuff out there that you can read and watch, but it was a video by, Kimberly Jones. and it's, how can we win? And you can find it really easily on YouTube. And it's hard to imagine at my age that I did not know the story. I didn't know the story about Tulsa.
[00:16:25] I didn't understand why black people felt. Like they had to, if they were going to get a piece of something, they were going to take it because they, Oh gosh, I'm going to, I'm going to do, I'm not going to do this story, sir. I'm going to do this story a disservice by trying, I'm sorry.
[00:16:48] I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet where I can really articulate why. Black, the black community is behind the eight ball. They are [00:17:00] not where they should be. And it's because white people did everything in their power to make sure that they were not successful, that they never had it. They never had the wealth or the resources or the.
[00:17:15]I don't know if Cecelia or a Dean, if you can help me by jumping in with, what, I don't want a story 
[00:17:21] Cecelia Taylor: [00:17:21] I want to jump in because I think you're in the right spot. And I think that what you're saying is you want to become an ally and you want to be able to stand up for people and represent.
[00:17:33] But I think that where you are is. Is actually perfect because you realize what you didn't know and you're saying, how do I become better? And I think that's really what we're asking people to have those conversations to start to do. That's it, one of the things that we've got listed on here, is, how do we now bring that conversation?
[00:17:53] That's very personal to us. We are now in work settings. So [00:18:00] how does this now translate? How do we start to have these conversations in the work? And I'm going to switch over to Nadine really quickly because, some conversations have been had, and she hasn't really chimed in here. So I'm just going to look to her to say, what do you think? What do you, what did you hear and how do you feel? 
[00:18:20]Nadine Cummings: [00:18:20] I appreciate that. What I wanted to interject and say was, to Sam, Point about the Kim Jones video and basically struggling, trying to 
[00:18:29] Mercedes Adams: [00:18:29] reiterate, 
[00:18:31] Nadine Cummings: [00:18:31] it's really not meant to be an easy conversation because it can't be an easy conversation. And so it's okay to feel that discomfort and that level of, I don't know if there's so much, there's so many low vibrational.
[00:18:47] Segments to dealing with racism, right? Whether it's shame, whether it's, anger, these are all their sadness or pain or there's so much to it. [00:19:00] So it's never going to be an easy conversation on, and I agree with Cecelia that you're in the right place of feeling that discomfort, but having the courage to talk about it, having the courage to speak your truth  and be the willingness to receive other folks true about it. So I applaud that. 
[00:19:22] Cecelia Taylor: [00:19:22] And I think that the place that we find ourselves now is we are starting to have these conversations. and we're bringing out the experiences. We were talking in the, pre show, meeting that, I feel more comfortable now.
[00:19:37]I feel like that I can now speak up and then I feel empowered based on what's happening to really start to have these conversations. one thing about black people that I can, but equivocally say is the fact that we are all very different. Because we are not all one. We don't all come in one flavor and whereas I may [00:20:00] feel more energized by the movement by what's happening out there.
[00:20:05] There are others who don't feel quite the same, where I might feel more comfortable having the conversation at work. there may be people who don't feel quite as emboldened. 
[00:20:17] Nadine Cummings: [00:20:17] Being thing that would be me. I know. I really, I hesitated even wanting to do this podcast, and so when I talk about those low vibration of words like shame, there's this shame that's associated with me not wanting to talk about it right now.
[00:20:33]because. I should want to talk about it. I should like, we've become so far. Why, there's so many reasons why we, I should be at the forefront, screaming and yeah, I agree. But there are parts of B on some days that are just damn tired of this subject. There are parts of me at some time that are just angry that corporations want to now talk about it.
[00:20:54] Like what is there to say? And that's another topic, like what is there to say? There's so many [00:21:00] things that can be said. And part of me does not want to have these conversations at work because of backlash because of, the water cooler conversation. Oh, we go, again, those are things that resonated as always my mind.
[00:21:16]It's a tough conversation for me to have. In this forum, it's a tough conversation for me to have with the VP of my company. it's a tough conversation to really be honest with in certain circles. And I think corporate America is one circle that this is a conversation that is very tough for me. I don't feel like I could be free. 
[00:21:39] Sam Moulton: [00:21:39] We appreciate your willingness to take this first step. No, I, we talked about this. I could sense a real reluctance on your part to do this. but I think you have so much to offer, there are people will listen to you because you have a very commanding presence.
[00:21:57] You're articulate, you're warm. [00:22:00] And the fact that you're willing to be vulnerable right now. it shows that you're going to, you're diving into your, you're going to, you're working on this and you see the value in helping, me and Mercedes and other people out there become better allies and feel more courageous about, potentially screwing up a little bit. and learning from that. 
[00:22:26]Mercedes Adams: [00:22:26] Nadine. I almost talked over you there at the end and I, because I wanted to share something that I'm not sure, I always understood. and then the last couple of months I've started to spend some time thinking about. the emotional tax of being black in the workplace and what that feels And, I've mentioned and, Sam has mentioned, we have mentors who are coaching us to really understand what is, what does it mean? What is it like to have an official day job? And then also please be a minority champion. And every time I have a [00:23:00] question, every time I have a question and she knows she hit, she I'm going to come to her and say, is this racist?
[00:23:07]I there's somebody that I have to go to and say, help me frame my perspective on this. And when I freak out about something and up Sam, you and I have slacked back fourth, where I'm freaking out going, that's so racist and Sam's calm down, Mercedes, let me, so I just want to share that.
[00:23:24]somehow  white America expects that everybody who's black in the workforce should help coach us be better. And I'm guilty of this. I see. As your, I say Cecelia, I say that, but I'm confessing that this is the challenge, right? The emotional tax that. We haven't invested the time that we need to, to improve.
[00:23:46] And so there's this extra burden. I just want to acknowledge it because I think that's part of the challenge of, the in order for us to get better and to practice. we're counting on others around [00:24:00] us. minorities, underrepresented minorities to a high degree. To coach mentor guide, to be the advocate, And that's not your day job, 
[00:24:11]Sam Moulton: [00:24:11] but let me ask you this though. let me ask Cecelia and the Nadine this, I think the alternative might be worse if you are working with someone and they show no interest whatsoever. And getting to know you better understanding how to become an ally. They avoid, you can clearly see they're avoiding any sort of conversation about racism because they are completely, they may not be comfortable with it, or they may not, they just may not care.
[00:24:46] So we are taxing them Mercedes, but honestly, I think that there has to be, Cecelia, I hope that you feel good. as to an extent when you know that you have broken through [00:25:00] some, prior, existing, whatever midnight walls of misinformation, wall.
[00:25:04] Yeah. where you see the light go on for me. And I hope that is, I hope that. Helps you feel like it's worth your time and it's worth paying that tax. I, and maybe I'm being, again, some, I know Mercedes is making a face. I think I'm being what naive again, or I'm trying to, I always have always looking for the bright side.
[00:25:29] I'm always looking for the. the silver lining. So maybe I'm completely wrong. Maybe I don't get that sense from you though. 
[00:25:37] Mercedes Adams: [00:25:37] My goal, if it was to acknowledge it, but not to. Not to, excuse that. That's all really it's just to say I acknowledge. 
[00:25:45] Cecelia Taylor: [00:25:45] I think I personally, and I can only speak for me.
[00:25:49] I like the fact that if someone takes the time to even acknowledge or to even ask me, because at least that means you see me recognize me that to me. [00:26:00] I have found is that there are people and I do understand where they're like, okay, I don't want to offend. but at the same time, that means that you can't learn or you can't even try to listen.
[00:26:10] So whenever I do make even the slightest inroad that I can speak,  and hopefully, shed some light or at least give a perspective that may be different. I think that to me is a bit of a win. because before it was say nothing and suffer in silence. So to now actually have the opportunity.
[00:26:30] My opinion is just mine. Okay. I don't speak for everyone, but I can speak to my own experience and I can speak to what's happening, There've been a number of incidents that happened this year. And we saw companies respond in different ways. some companies went dark on their logos, so on social media, some created forums within their, organizations.
[00:26:54] Some people have made large contributions, to other [00:27:00] associations, but I think what ultimately will matter the most is the conversations. We have one with another. In those small spaces, not the huge forums, not the huge arenas, but the conversations we have with the people that we come into contact with every day.
[00:27:22] I think that's how we start to make a difference. And I think for me, that's a win 
[00:27:30] Sam Moulton: [00:27:30] I have. Oh, go ahead. 
[00:27:32] Nadine Cummings: [00:27:32] Go ahead. Okay, thanks, Sam. I just wanted to say, I wanted to a thought occurred to me. It was, and it came about with Mercedes and Cecelia said, about acknowledging and, having these conversations. I just thought I had thought came to me in terms of acknowledging the issues or the systematic racism that exists is [00:28:00] likened.
[00:28:00] To acknowledging the death of a loved one, plenty of folks who have had, someone pass and there's that awkwardness. When you see them, you want to say, I'm so sorry for your loss. You want to say, how are you? And I'm just sorry. And you feel awkward saying that to that person. So you just don't bring it up.
[00:28:24] We just move on to something new what's going on. And we just go about our day, never acknowledging the pain that this person is going through. But when you look at the person's side, they are happy that someone acknowledged the passing of their mother, of their grandmother, that, and they welcome or thank you in their own way about you're acknowledging their pain.
[00:28:48] It's similar to that. we all feel for the native American knowing that the land that there's there they're in is not there. And in some way we check Mark, yeah, I know. I [00:29:00] understand. I understand. and the list goes on, right? The list goes on to talk about, whether it's, I don't want to just base it on color or the amended, the amount of factions of folks from different lines that have been pressed.
[00:29:14]But we acknowledge what they've gone through. We acknowledge communism in Hispanic or Latin countries. We acknowledge what Jews have gone through with the Holocaust. We acknowledge what native Americans have gone through with displacement. And so for folks acknowledge what black folks have gone through is akin to acknowledging the pain. And that right there is the best way to start a conversation. Thank you for that, 
[00:29:45] Mercedes Adams: [00:29:45] Nadine, I really, thank you for that perspective, because I think you just grounded us in a beautiful way. And I would like to add a thought, to that acknowledgement. and this is something that, I just wanted to bring up the [00:30:00] concept of black lives matter, and I know that it's something that.
[00:30:04]we wanted to talk a little bit about, because that statement black lives matter has become a politicized and controversial. And, I think, it's a term that's more than five years old. and I wanted to share something, just because of what you said about acknowledging. the pain and it made me think about a psychology today article, there's actually a couple on the theme of what is wrong with the phrase all lives matter, because I think people still do not understand when they say that phrase and I might even get it emotional, all lives matter tries to erase the pain that brought to the forefront black lives matter. 
[00:30:51]I feel like people would like to just willfully ignore racism.  And so we just go over and get [00:31:00] defensive and fragile and say, wait a minute, all lives matter.
[00:31:04] But in this psychology today, article, there was an interesting, a couple of different ways of looking at it. if I said ketchup is important and somebody said, all condiments matter, that would be weird. and the article, goes on if you said. murder is important and somebody came over and said, all crimes are important.
[00:31:21] That would be weird. but I think we people have changed the phrase, the essence behind black lives matter. And I think it was Michael Che who had a really poignant. comedy sketch on this about it's like a minimum, it's just a baseline. It's not even saying 
[00:31:41] Cecelia Taylor: [00:31:41] right. 
[00:31:41] Mercedes Adams: [00:31:41] Black lives are amazing, phenomenal.
[00:31:44] Fantastic. It's just could I just matter? And that 
[00:31:47] Cecelia Taylor: [00:31:47] the 
[00:31:47] Sam Moulton: [00:31:47] backlash 
[00:31:49] Mercedes Adams: [00:31:49] that comes with all lives matter is so hurtful. I just, I wanted to say that I feel like a lot of people do not understand or have the understanding. It's not [00:32:00] complicated. But there's a nuance to, the, what does it actually mean if you pause for a moment and say, why do we need to have a conversation?
[00:32:09]
[00:32:09] and I thought what you said about acknowledging the pain just really beautifully fit into that. black lives matter phrase, 
[00:32:17] Cecelia Taylor: [00:32:17] I think, 
[00:32:17] Nadine Cummings: [00:32:17] I 
[00:32:17] Cecelia Taylor: [00:32:17] think the willful misunderstanding of the difference between the phrase. Black lives matter and the organization Black lives matter. They might have a trademark on that. I don't know. Maybe they don't. and the fact that there are people will willfully misunderstand the term and intentionally, right? Misunderstand the phrase. 
[00:32:39] I said black lives matter. I didn't say black lives matter.org or whatever their URL may be, or even speaking to a formed organization. I'm just simply saying the words, black lives matter, 
[00:32:53] A colleague,  penned a blog. I believe in July, all the "error of emphasis" and, I [00:33:00] was particularly moved by this because he writes about it's Jared Carroll, who writes about the difference. where we basically look at a phrase or look at the situation and point to one area is not the focus that is not the emphasis. And we put the emphasis on the wrong part, and the phrase black lives matter is that particular phrase.
[00:33:26] In a microcosm where people, instead of looking at the words in and of themselves, they associate with an organization and that's what they based their disapproval on. They, because then they follow up with a phrase all lives matter. and so it's become. Oh polarizing. And it's so difficult to have the conversation so that you do not end up into a fray of disagreement or a where we end up where the conversation off to the left, because we're [00:34:00] arguing over the nuances of an organization name versus a statement that should be fact.
[00:34:07] in all that we've seen, and I don't know if we've got time for this, we've seen a lot of things happening in the year, 2020. Wow. What a year? in the year 2020, we've seen protests that have arisen. we've seen  actions of black people killed by police. there are many websites out there. That will show you, details of, people in there, some names that are so common now that they've become common-- Breonna Taylor being one of them, George Floyd, Jacob Blake, Dijon Kizzee.
[00:34:41] And even just in the past week, Deon Kay where the arguments and even the facts of the case are so disputed. In terms of what really happened, what didn't happen, what were the circumstances is this [00:35:00] real? This is, fake news, this you being gaslighted. There's just so much going on. And there's so much we're living in a period of history.
[00:35:11] That's unlike any other history, but still yet similar. To what we've seen. We're looking at a movement that has now started. And I think that when we talk about the conversations that we're having, even as we start to talk about those conversations, there are so much that goes with them and are one of the points.
[00:35:30] And I'm gonna, I'm going to go to Sam, was, just the nature of protests. That, some of the protests have, may start off, in a very good place. And I do believe that most of the people that do have the protests are integrated are there for valid reason. But unfortunately  there are those who, have mal-intent .
[00:35:51] And so they will start violence or start trouble. I honestly don't believe it's the majority of people, but I do believe that there is definitely a minority of people, [00:36:00] who will be on the fringe edges, but they make the situation so much worse. w one discussion came up, I believe on Twitter, on the Twitters was about bringing your children to a protest. On the one hand. You have the opinion of,  I want to expose my children. Then on the other hand, there's a bit of a safety concern. 
[00:36:18]Sam Moulton: [00:36:18] Yeah. I was the one having that conversation on Twitter and, I saw, a video clip. I'm, pretty much addicted to watching Rachel Maddow.
[00:36:29] Every darn night, if I don't get my Rachel, when she takes a vacation, I'm very insulted by that. But anyway, there was a clip of a very young girl. it turns out she was 14 years old. it was at night. It was well, she was attending. A protest that was very violent. And I'm watching, as somebody is filming this, I don't know who, but she was not doing anything.
[00:36:59]she wasn't [00:37:00] throwing anything. She wasn't saying anything when these, whatever they are, these police that aren't police, literally. Grabbed her and threw her down on the ground face first. And I just was horrified by this and, someone kind of chimed in. So  I made the mistake of tweeting about it.
[00:37:20]I, try very hard not to do that, but I was just so upset by it because I, I don't. I often will tweet from my perspective and not understand that it's going to come across very differently to others, but it, I guess I was viewed as a S or people thought I was saying, children should not be aware or be made aware of what's happening right now in our society. They should not be. educated. But no, what I was saying is keep your kids at home where they are not going to get beaten up by the police. [00:38:00] Yeah. 
[00:38:01]Mercedes Adams: [00:38:01] I just, I, I'm on the sideline of this conversation, but it's, you're making me remember, just to confess my daughters are 25 and 26 now. But, where I took them back. 20 years ago I took them to an antiwar protest, and they were like little. But I think when you go there, if you have something that you believe in and your 
[00:38:23] Sam Moulton: [00:38:23] passion were they shooting, you 
[00:38:26] Mercedes Adams: [00:38:26] know, how do you know before you go? that's the thing is who knows what?
[00:38:30]
[00:38:30] Sam Moulton: [00:38:30] I've been all over the, it's been all over the news. You know what these, what's happening at these. Protests now. 
[00:38:38] Mercedes Adams: [00:38:38] And so I just highlight it because I think about the difference, And antiwar protest. And if we look through him, street rights, students had been murdered in antiwar protests.
[00:38:49]and I think it's still important that they showed up. And at the point where, I did go to one, black lives matter, March protest, March, it was ordered organized by high school students. [00:39:00] and so I do think there's a place for youth in the protests. However, this is the conversation we can have after the fact, and it gets really hard on Twitter.
[00:39:08]And I'll let you finish your story. I just wanted to jump in to say that it's so hard to have that perspective and is it 280 characters now? 
[00:39:15] 
[00:39:15] Sam Moulton: [00:39:15] right. I think I was pretty much done. I, I was just acknowledging that I need to be thoughtful in everything I say and do.
[00:39:25] And that Twitter is included in that because people can misunderstand what you're saying. And, I don't want to get into a debate on Twitter about whether to bring your kids or not bring your kids as a parent. I just feel it was irresponsible of, maybe somebody said, maybe she didn't have parents.
[00:39:44] Okay. Oh, okay. So then she's homeless. I just thought that somebody. Should be, have been responsible for this, beautiful young girl who was in a place. I felt she should. I shouldn't have been in it's COVID. [00:40:00] Nighttime it's, 
[00:40:02] Mercedes Adams: [00:40:02] dudes, your motherhood showing. that's really what it is, right?
[00:40:06]it's your motherhood. 
[00:40:07] Sam Moulton: [00:40:07] Okay. I, I've got that going on. Yeah. I got to go down 
[00:40:11] Nadine Cummings: [00:40:11] and 
[00:40:14] Sam Moulton: [00:40:14] yeah, I just, she was too young to be out by herself in that environment. I'm sorry. I just, 
[00:40:19]
[00:40:19] I'm going to let it go. Okay. Yeah, 
[00:40:22] Nadine Cummings: [00:40:22] I can relate to that. instead of clogging laid wires, why are these children out on the streets?
[00:40:27]That's the question you're asking. Yes. 
[00:40:30] Sam Moulton: [00:40:30] Yes. 
[00:40:31] Mercedes Adams: [00:40:31] What are 
[00:40:31] Nadine Cummings: [00:40:31] you, are you asking? Why are they in the protest or why are they out late? or maybe it's 
[00:40:36] the same. 
[00:40:38] Sam Moulton: [00:40:38] No. It's why were they there? When there had been night after night of violent protests, where there were these police who were working, like these military cops who were intentionally injuring.
[00:40:55] Okay. Oh, I bet careful about this, but I felt like they were intentionally [00:41:00] going after something, the people in the audience is to make a point. And maybe the point was stay home. We don't want you guys protesting about this. maybe they were racist. I don't know where they were coming from, but it was a dangerous environment and I am all about protect the kids, man.
[00:41:19] Nadine Cummings: [00:41:19] I can't disagree with you on that though, Sam. Seriously, I can, I, in terms of you know what, what too well, I, then we're saying it cause you don't know what to expect, but sometimes when you're walking into, uncertainty, yeah, I get it. I can totally see my folks saying, they get what you're asked for, so 
[00:41:39] Sam Moulton: [00:41:39] yeah,
[00:41:39]Nadine Cummings: [00:41:39] it's Vivian accent. So there's no love in that. 
[00:41:45] Cecelia Taylor: [00:41:45] So speaking of the Twitters, before we started out to do this episode, we asked a question out on the Twitters and I think we did receive a couple of questions. So before we wrap up today, let's see if we can address a couple of those questions, Sam.
[00:42:00] [00:42:00] Sam Moulton: [00:42:00] Alrighty. So our friend Karen Lopez, or otherwise known as @datachick out there on the twitters-- She was asking if we had any tips, how to get a meeting back on track. When off topic conversation starts to go off the rails. And because she was responding to our tweet about this podcast, we're doing about difficult conversations about touchy topics, diversity I'm going to make a jump appear and say that it may have come up.
[00:42:32]this whole everything that's going on right now, it's hard to keep it under wraps. So it may have come up for her in a business setting and it, it, she indicated that, abruptly cutting it off or just, really just saying, Hey, we're we need to move on or whatever it seemed to have made things worse in this situation.
[00:42:52]I don't know what, that whole idea just gives me, my palms start to sweat, just thinking about it. Okay. The anxiety that I would be feeling [00:43:00] if that was happening, because I tried to bite my tongue, but I'm not always very good at it that, and I, I can see myself jumping in and, really just making a mess out of things.
[00:43:13] So I don't know. What do you guys think? 
[00:43:15] Mercedes Adams: [00:43:15] Oh, it's, there's a couple, like I could talk on this topic for 30 minutes and everybody would be asleep, but I would excited. 
[00:43:23] And what was really interesting about, Karen's, tweet, just in looking at it, it is, she said I'm happy to talk about contentious or sensitive topics, but not in a work meeting.
[00:43:33] And so I want to say that generally when you're in a meeting and, Mercedes goes on a tangent, you can gently say. That is really interesting and I wish we had more time to address it. We're really focused on this today. So could we come back to what we need to accomplish by the end of the meeting?
[00:43:51] It's typically a gentle reminder. And in fact, I was in a staff meeting yesterday. Yeah. And I questioned my own boss. Is this conversation going to get us to the [00:44:00] goal that you had for the meeting? but by 
[00:44:02] Sam Moulton: [00:44:02] the way, but, 
[00:44:03] Mercedes Adams: [00:44:03] but when I, to around this.  when we think about courageous conversations at work, and we're talking about having the conversation about racism at work and why, 
[00:44:15]in one Harvard business review article from last year, they had assessed that only 1.9% of the tech executives are black. I just want to highlight that because I've heard a story about a black executive. At a C-level meeting, having a conversation about racism at work and the response that individual got was that's politics don't ever bring that up in a meeting again. 
[00:44:44]And what do you think that does for that individual, for everyone who is not willing to embrace that courageous conversation and say, you know what, we do need to address this head on and going towards discomfort. Is not natural. And [00:45:00] so when I think about contentious and sensitive topics, not being relevant at work, we may be shutting down the very thing we need to address in order for people to do their best work. 
[00:45:12] And so I don't want us to underestimate right. That emotion is part of who we are and unless we can bring our passion to work and be our whole selves, the work won't get done. So we might think. That's not appropriate to talk about at work, but how I think everybody can remember a time where something happened and they felt alienated or isolated at work. Whether, you got shut down, somebody stole your idea or somebody made a comment, Hey, everybody send in a photo of your kids and you're the only person with no kids.
[00:45:47] Right? there's, there's lots of different lenses when we think of intersectionality, but I'm taking a slightly different tone to that question because I think it's so important for us to recognize, just going back to what Nadine [00:46:00] said, acknowledge the situation. Do not pretend it doesn't exist.
[00:46:06] So that's I went all around on that. there's lots of great ways that I think we can address, getting people back on topic and just grounding them in the purpose and, make sure you have an agenda and your expected outcomes. However, if an emotional issue comes up, just rethink, it probably has a lot more impact on work than you think it might.
[00:46:26] Sam Moulton: [00:46:26] So, I think what you're saying is we need to make time for those conversations, that if it's a relevant, impactful, thoughtful conversation, have it, then, when the opportunity presents itself, instead of waiting for that perfect moment. 
[00:46:45] Mercedes Adams: [00:46:45] Yeah. And Karen tweet said, abruptly cutting something off, does it? It just makes it worse. So let's go towards better by confronting that discomfort. and if it's not the time or the space, we need to create the time or space yeah. [00:47:00] 
[00:47:00] Sam Moulton: [00:47:00] Were you going to say something else Nadine? 
[00:47:03] Nadine Cummings: [00:47:03] No. I think Mercedes said it all. I loved everything. It was spot on in terms of not avoiding it  go towards it. And I also just want to say maybe the reality is that discomfort was felt by whoever was facilitating them and did not want to, go towards it because of that discomfort. I think inherently, we all know how to handle somebody. Who's rambling. Or an argument in a, We know how to handle it. Sometimes you just let them talk. Sometimes you create a new space and 
[00:47:38] Sam Moulton: [00:47:38] now have a new internet. 
[00:47:40]Nadine Cummings: [00:47:40] I guess maybe I say to that and, really question your motives in that thought about shutting it down or. That discomfort, question, why you feel this way?
[00:47:54]Sam Moulton: [00:47:54] Cecelia? Do you have anything to add to that? Okay. 
[00:47:57]Cecelia Taylor: [00:47:57] I completely agree with Nadine. thinking about why you [00:48:00] feel that way. And then, you handled it. Other types of things that come up, this is, a similar issue, but, question your own motives, what you want to do and then yeah either address, or, make the time and make the space to have the conversation so that you can get back to what it is you thought you were. Talking about, 
[00:48:21] Mercedes Adams: [00:48:21] we're all working in tech. I'll just highlight one other. Both Nadine and Cecelia. one thing we, if we can't count on ourselves, I'll think about it at a technical question, right?
[00:48:32] If we're not the expert in that technology area, we know a lot of experts. And so we reach out to them and say, what, can you help and get there's people who are experts in diversity, inclusion and belonging. And I'm going to say, I call on them all the time when I get out of my depth level and  I'm failing. 
[00:48:49]or I don't have the knowledge. I don't have the skill. And I think we should embrace these types of conversations and recognize that there are people who are technical [00:49:00] experts at having courageous conversations and invite them in when we need them. if we aren't comfortable right as Nadine said, if you're the meeting facilitator and you're uncomfortable, maybe you need to call for backup.
[00:49:11]Sam Moulton: [00:49:11] We have to say thank you to Karen for that question. Cause it definitely, I hope we helped. I, we'll have to check in with her later and find out, but yeah. All right. So we have another question from our friend Kirsten Nelson, and she is @kirstennelson1 on Twitter.
[00:49:29] She says, do you have, or she asks, I should say, do you have any recommendations for people to follow or amplify on social media? Who are good on this topic? So who, who are like, Mercedes, you were just saying experts in having these conversations. And I think you had mentioned in our pre-meeting, I think you mentioned a couple of folks that might be good for a Kirsten to follow.
[00:49:52] Mercedes Adams: [00:49:52] I'll give three names that I started following and I've found their voices to be really powerful. the [00:50:00] first is Emmanuel Acho.   (@EmmanuelAcho) He's a retired NFL player and ESPN, and an analyst. And he's got a masters in sports psychology, and you may have seen his video series, uncomfortable conversations with a black man, incredibly informative.  (https://uncomfortableconvos.com) 
[00:50:15] He's a voice I want to amplify and learn from another is Ibram Kendi  (@DrIbram)  He is the director of the center for anti-racist research at Boston University. He wrote the book how to be antivirus, and it's a very. Deep book. There's a lot of data. There's a lot of learning, and he's very active on Twitter as well.
[00:50:37] And I've appreciated listening to some of his lectures. And the third person that I'd recommend is Michelle Silverthorne  (@inwithmichelle) . She actually came and spoke at black history month event earlier this year. She's the founder and CEO inclusion nation. And so those are three people specifically that I am learning from. And I find, valuable voices to amplify [00:51:00] 
[00:51:00]Sam Moulton: [00:51:00] I will add that, besides Cecelia, my other hero in this, journey I'm on is Kimberly Jones. I mentioned her earlier. Her Twitter handle is @KimLatriceJones.  She is a bestselling author. She is a very passionate person. And, I am following her for sure.
[00:51:25] Anybody else have, go ahead. Go ahead. Nope, 
[00:51:30] Nadine Cummings: [00:51:30] no, but I did write everything down. 
[00:51:33] Sam Moulton: [00:51:33] So you are, you will be following all those people going forward. 
[00:51:36]Nadine Cummings: [00:51:36] I will. Thank you for that information. 
[00:51:41] Cecelia Taylor: [00:51:41] I tend to tweet a lot more about social media and stuffs, but I'm just saying, I think that's a wrap for this episode of the TinT podcast.
[00:51:51] We want to thank Nadine and Mercedes for joining us today, to our listeners out there. We know you have a bunch of podcasts you could be listening to, and we [00:52:00] appreciate the time you take to spend with us. 
[00:52:02] We hope you'll add us to your queue of must listen podcasts, and we would love to hear your feedback, what works, what doesn't, what would you like to hear more from us about, we encourage you to email us  at ng-tintpodcast@netapp.com with your comments and questions, or reach out to us on the Twitters.  
[00:52:20] I'm @CeceliaTaylor and Sam is @SamMoulton. Thanks again for listening until next  time