Sean Sullivan (19s):
Welcome to Converge Coffee with Sean Sullivan. I'm here with Neil Miller. He is the host of the digital workplace. He talks with the best thinkers in the world about how to create a five level digital workplace and how the future of work will redefine technology, productivity, collaboration, leadership, and culture. Neil, thanks for being on the show. How are you? I'm doing great. John's pleasure to be here. Yeah. So Neil, I think getting kind of give people a backtrack. It's been, it's been a quite a while, I think a few years or more since we, from where we last connected, I think it was Modrus marketing, I believe when you back in the day.

Sean Sullivan (59s):
So it's, it's, it's been quite a, kind of quite a few years belly about at least five, you would say. Yeah. And I mean, you're doing a lot. I checked out the digital workplace, fantastic content by the way on there. So just want to give you a little shout out, you know, in the show notes on there too, as well as the audience, you know, what made you start the digital workplace? Let's just start out with that question right off the bat.

Neil Miller (1m 25s):
You know what I wouldn't, it's not like I'm on a personal mission or anything, but I really believe that we're entering into this new world. We have all these digital tools at our disposal, and this was even before COVID came around, we were kind of in a place where if you look forward, you could kind of get a sense of like, what's possible now that, that wasn't there before, in terms of, you know, work work has been really bad for a long time. For most people, for some people it's worked well. And now we're in this, this kind of middle phase where for some people it's working well and it's like, it's okay. But to really get everyone on board with, with creating like a whole society in a whole lot of companies out there that are really operating at a, at a great level, like, I feel like this is one of the first times in history when it's really possible, like some of our, our big dreams that are out there.

Neil Miller (2m 17s):
So I think when it, when it comes down to like, why I keep doing this and why I get excited about it, it's that I know there are a lot of leaders out there who want that same vision, and they just need to talk to each other and, and hear about it and get some good ideas and, and be bold about it. And that's really what drives me.

Sean Sullivan (2m 36s):
I like that very, it's a very simple, short to the point, you know, as I was kind of looking through some things, one thing that kinda stood out to me was you've mentioned, well, you mentioned leadership a few times, but I've just seen leadership on your side a few times, you know, how has the digital world redefined then redefined with leadership and, and where do you kind of see it, where it is now and this kind of middle phase and where it's kind of being going or where it's good could go. Yeah,

Neil Miller (3m 4s):
It's, it's strange because when you look at like, what's, what's the impact of digital tools, digital transformation onto leadership. There's really not a lot of like, like day-to-day differences that are going to be there. Like, I really hope leaders will stop doing a lot of paperwork, and hopefully we don't do a lot of monitoring of employee activities. And hopefully we get away from annual reviews. Like those are just kind of like surface level things. And in general leaders need to do a lot more with software. They need to learn how to use software. Much better communication for sure, is, is much different today than it was even 10 years ago about you have so many options and too many options these days.

Neil Miller (3m 46s):
So leaders have to put those things in place, but that's just kind of table stakes when it, when it comes to what it means to be a leader. But I really feel like that the bigger transition is, is what's this kind of digital workplace reveals and what it exposes, because I think it will really expose the good leaders and bad leaders. And I think we've seen that all year with this pandemic that's people who were, were already kind of had the principles and the basics we're, we're finding ways to, to Excel. It took some, maybe some adapting, but they were finding ways to do it. And people who were just bad in, in, even in office centric environment, continue to struggle with that. So when I'm going to talk about that, what I mean is like, there are, there are things that, that we're always going to need to do on all of these are, are about how we take care of humans, because I kind of see in the future, you're going to have a team of you have humans, and you also have all this AI, all these systems, all this technology that's there.

Neil Miller (4m 42s):
And a leader's job is really to figure out how they're going to take care of those people. So it's, it's about the building more, you know, you hear about things like emotional intelligence, but it's also about how are you going to build some like maybe some custom career paths for people? How do you make sure they get praise, the praise that they need? How do you make sure that they're, they're being taken care of those both physically, socially, everything that's going on around them. So it's a big challenge. So to ask for leaders to say, Hey, all those things that we used to say, you're not just managing projects anymore. Now, now it's about really looking at the humans that are on your team and figuring out how you can best take care of them. And especially as we go into a world where no, we don't really know what's going to happen.

Neil Miller (5m 25s):
Most of leadership, like all the easy stuff about leadership is already been done. So if you're leading a team now, and you're a really effective team, it's probably because you're going to places where no one's ever been before. And so leaders need to be very clear about the fact that they don't, they don't have all the answers and really they're, they're there to take care of the team to admit ignorance, to figure out how to move forward with that. So I think those are the bigger impacts that we're going to see from, from all these digital changes.

Sean Sullivan (5m 53s):
I liked that, and it kind of moves past a point of where I have kind of read a book about driven by Daniel pink. And that kind of talks about exactly what you're kind of hitting on is that we kind of had that jolt of, we have to move away from the motivation 2.0 of this sustains rewards and everything to, how do we build out custom customizable experiences for everybody that is in the company to maximize their autonomy, mastery and purpose. And some of that, it comes into the employees themselves, but it has to start with leadership because they are working for the grander purpose of where that leadership has been, you know, the foundation of that leadership.

Sean Sullivan (6m 37s):
So now, you know, now that actually perfectly segues to the next question, in the sense that, you know, are there any tips that you have, or you have you listened to or anything that you can hopefully futuristically see about how to improve, you know, collaboration, productivity, and culture? I think that's kind of the big thing is how can the, how can the company leadership, how can Cal can, they can build comradery with the employees to, I mean, help serve the customers too.

Neil Miller (7m 10s):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, we can go into all those, we'll start with collaboration because I feel like that's, that's the one that's like the most pressing need on us, especially when we're, if you're in a remote or distributed situation where you're not with everyone else around you, like you've got to get the collaboration thing down about how you communicate, how you work, how you do things together. And really, I think the easiest place to start with, with your meetings to figure out how to do those better because man digital meetings done poorly are horrible and that they are, it's tough to sit through and to figure out what's going on. So even if you can just start there and figure out what does it mean to have a better meeting?

Neil Miller (7m 51s):
I th I think meetings are still important. I don't, I'm not somebody who says, Hey, we should get rid of all meetings because there's, there's almost something that's very sacred about people, two humans or 10 humans getting together and talking about an issue. That's something we need to protect and look at. I mean, one of the big characteristics we feel like is there with a high, high functioning digital workplace, is that they do have a healthy respect for time and recognize they don't want to waste people's time. So if you're going to have a meeting, make sure that there's a purpose for it, make sure that you're actually discussing things that you couldn't have discussed asynchronously. So this is one thing that the leaders need to do. They need to figure out what's, what's going to be best to discuss maybe on Slack channels or Microsoft teams offline in, in that kind of way.

Neil Miller (8m 33s):
Or what's going to be best to discuss that in real time and really make sure to get everyone's input, get everyone's buy-in about those things. And then even after that, you know, how do you, how do you make sure that everyone has an equal share of, of time to be able to give their input into that? How do you make sure that you're documenting decisions and action points? So I feel like on one level, if you start with meetings that that really translates to a lot of other things, and even just thinking about the importance of time or recognizing how you're using your time is a great way to start. So from, from the collaboration angle, I think that that's, that's something that we can really do to, to get better on that side of things.

Sean Sullivan (9m 15s):
Yeah. I, I totally agree. There's there with zoom meetings or Google meet or whatever, or any of that kind of stuff. There's burnout, people turn off the videos or they, they they're less engaged. And I mean, you kind of hit it on the head of, you know, how about, you know, have a structured time. This person talks for this duration, you know, this is what their action points are. This is kind of, what's kind of going into that, which, which makes perfect sense. So I'm no more grilling questions here, but you know, kind of want to talk more about like an off buying background, any insights, I mean, you're, you're full of insights. So you can, you can take up as much time as you kind of need, because I mean, you were very, you're very to the point on your questions and it was very insightful.

Sean Sullivan (9m 56s):
So if you want to share a story about anything that you have learned on your journey with the digital workplace, anything that you have seen other people talk about kind of the four shores right now to kind of talk about that.

Neil Miller (10m 9s):
I mean, th there's so many directions we can go with this and this is why I have fun talking to people on our podcast, bringing them in getting insights about these big topics, but even like the five big topics we talk about with collaboration, productivity, culture, or leadership technology. Those, I mean, we've done about 150 episodes now, so I didn't understand those at the start. They've really kind of developed over, over time. And it's great to be in a place where I don't feel like I'm necessarily sharing my own insights and wisdom, but just the wisdoms that I picked up from other people. So like even something like we've talked about in terms of productivity, man, there's some, there's some really deep questions around that on, on one level.

Neil Miller (10m 50s):
It's just like, okay, how do you get stuff done when you're just by yourself in your, in your home office or just trying to get things done? Or if you're, you have a lot of people around you, like, so drilling down into that, trying to figure out, okay, what, what is stopping you? You need to like, time management is a big thing. Like how do you make sure you have time to do the tasks that you need to get done? How do you dis you know, deal with distractions that are around you both internally and externally? I don't know about you, but like, I, even if I'm, I have a whole big chunk of time to work on something and everything's right there, I don't have anyone else pinging me about anything, but I still have something to come. And it's like, Hey, go get a snack, a, take a break, or look at this, or look up this thing.

Neil Miller (11m 32s):
And that's just a difficult thing to deal with. So that's there. But then even looking at something like productivity on a deeper link angle and being like, well, how are we actually measuring this? And are we just being active and doing a lot of activity? Because that's one thing that we saw in an office centric environments. Like you could sit around an office and be busy and looked like you were doing stuff for, you know, weeks at a time without anyone ever like checking in to see if things were actually getting done. And I think that that's something that falls apart in a digital workplace, you kind of have to have more accountability in terms of what you're doing and is what you're doing, actually benefiting the end goal of the company.

Neil Miller (12m 17s):
I think most, most organizations don't do a good job of really being extremely clear about, Hey, this is our vision. This is the ultimate goal that we're getting to. And we're usually just doing things and then justifying them later on. Well, you know, I was really busy. I was doing all these activities and it was helping things out later, but we didn't do a good job of starting with the goal and say, okay, what are the most important things we can be doing right now? So prioritization is a big one with that. So yeah, I think, I think productivity is kind of like a, a pet topic of mine that I'd like to talk about. But in essence, I feel like the productivity discussions, like how do you define if somebody is doing a good job, like anyone on your team do, if you know, they're doing a good job, that it could be defined in many different ways, but we need to get away from employee monitoring techniques or, or just saying, Hey, are they busy?

Neil Miller (13m 9s):
Are they doing stuff? And really take a bigger look at that. What is the impact that they're having from that?

Sean Sullivan (13m 17s):
That's you hit it on the head. I think it's the bigger impact you can't monitor, you know, day in, day out or that day or one day that ever because everybody's human. It's, we're not, we're not robots. I mean, we're not an automation tool, but we are, we are, we have built those automation tools to help us out. So I like that. It kind of, you know, you have to see that you have to see the bigger picture with each employee.

Neil Miller (13m 44s):
And then the, the human point you bring up is actually really important. Like we, we aren't robots and there are some jobs that we do that robots could be better. And I think we need to embrace that. And I, I'm not a fan of saying, Hey, let's, let's destroy all the machines because they, they might one day take our jobs. Like that's not the future. We should be going through one it's. We can never do that. Like, this is where we're marching as a society. So it's going to happen one way or another, but instead, what we should be doing is focusing on, well, what are the things that the robots can't do and are at least can't do yet. And let's focus on what is it that we as humans really do bring to, to, to the workplace and try to hit on those.

Neil Miller (14m 27s):
Like, that's always one of my, I try to keep a big list of like, what are the things that, that humans like do? And like one of my favorite thought experiments is just to imagine if robots are running the show one day and there's like some AI thing that that's the CEO of a company is cause some AI decision making thing. At what point does that machine say, wow, like we really need a human in this role, like go out and find best human you can to fill this one. Like, what is it that, that even an AI would, would recognize that they can't do and that they would want someone else to come in. So I think that that's, that's a fascinating thing to think about and about how we, as, as humans need to be optimizing for that. Because for the last, you know, several hundred years, we've been optimizing for how we can be better machines, but that's a losing game and something we need to shift away from,

Sean Sullivan (15m 16s):
Well, it's that cognitive awareness. That's the interest. That's the intricate newness of why machines can't would not get to that point. I mean, it's like a, what was it, a will Smith movie back in 2005, I robot or something like that, where the, the guy who made the machines gave one of the machines, the actual cognitive ability to understand, and the human aspect. And that was kind of the cool thing is that you can kind of see the difference between the human aspect and the robot aspect of performing a task. Versus this is the reason why I'm performing the task, or this is why I'm pivoting based upon this. Or this is my abilities with this.

Sean Sullivan (15m 56s):
And it came down to dreaming. I think that was kind of the big thing is that kind of robot dream, which was the fascinating thing, too,

Neil Miller (16m 4s):
Understanding things like that, I think is I wish that's where we would go as a, as a society to, to recognize like how little we know that humanity I've been trying, like we said, we've been optimizing for, for profits. Who've been optimizing for growth for a machine growth of things. And like, even some like Jamie, like why did we do that? What, what if as a society, we said like, let's, let's really spend some time to figure out that and do a lot of studies and, and understand why humans do that. Why, why is it that we're at a place where we are, and we still don't really know like the best way to raise children? Like everyone's got their own opinion. There's no, I'm not saying there's like a one universal answer out there, but I feel like it's, it's the questions like these we've kind of punted on and put off to the side because like, well, I'll figure that out later.

Neil Miller (16m 50s):
Cause I got to go to work now and I got to figure out how to, to keep food on the table. But if we were to get to a place where that's not the pressing issue, we can really go deep into what it means to be human and what it means to work as a human. And what's the value that we're bringing.

Sean Sullivan (17m 4s):
Yeah. I think the native American culture had it very, did it very well is because they had insights based upon dreams or foresight on things, because it's, it's interesting when someone's dream, sometimes someone's dream doesn't even make sense or, but down the road, you, you, you, you feel like a little deja VU and you're like, where did I experience this? And it's kind of interesting how our, how our dreams are. So, you know, sub connected to, to everything else in our life. And even in other things, it's kind of fascinating how dreams can one, it can also deter you to, for away from things, but it could also help you engage in the native American culture.

Sean Sullivan (17m 45s):
I think did that, is that they had this dream-like status sometimes with their shaman that actually helps with understanding the future understanding perspective. I think that was very interesting. So I mean, we can go deeper and deeper into this, but this, you know, this part of the episode now is, you know, it's about you, Neil, you know, Y Y Y Y Y the digital workplace, you know, I think that's kind of the first thing. Why do you, why do you do what you do? What, what is the fascination, what's the why when you get up in the morning,

Neil Miller (18m 19s):
I mean, it's, it's everything we've been talking about. It's, it's the idea that if we keep going on the route that we're on, which is just keep on a growth, like we're just trying to grow profits, trying to do things and whatever technology we can throw in there that seems to help that, like, I feel like we're, we're heading off a cliff, like at some point that's all going to catch up with us and we're going to realize, Oh shoot, we, we, we had the opportunity. We had that window of time where we could really do something great with this and recognize, Hey, we have this technology, let's, let's reset the rules. Let's, let's upgrade our other systems. Let's get better at culture and get better at leadership and do these things instead of just kind of struggling along, because that's what the, the, the companies is to do to really step back and, and really even like set a finish line.

Neil Miller (19m 14s):
I think that's a big thing. A lot of people don't do. I had a chance to interview David Heinemeier Hansson from base camp earlier. And it was just so refreshing when he talked about the fact that like, that he and Jason freed when they're creating this company. And they realized that got to the point of about 50 employees. And it was like, yeah, this is, that's the kind of company they wanted to have. And they didn't really want to grow beyond that. And they were happy with that. And so they just said, let's just stop here. And, you know, they still, they have a few more than that now. And they have probably about 75, but it's, it's a company that could potentially be a massive many thousand employee company, but they really just kind of set the finish line, his idea, we reached it.

Neil Miller (19m 55s):
We're happy with the, is let's focus on some of the things now. So helping, like that's my, my big end goal is really helping companies and leaders to, to figure out, Hey, what's, what's the bigger goal we're going to have here. Even after we've kind of hit these financial goals that are there, what's something else we can work on. And we, we don't just focus on constantly trying to get bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, but bigger it to what in, like, when are you done? Like when, when have you reached where you wanted to reach? And so I think helping people to get to that place where they can have those conversations and say, yeah, we breached that. Now let's focus on some other things and have some fun with what we're doing. That's what I get excited about.

Sean Sullivan (20m 38s):
I like that. It's it's, you kind of mentioned something. It's not about growth. It's about scalability and we're base camp. They scaled and they thought about it. They're like, okay, we got to 50 employees. How do we scale other things within our company? It's like getting, getting to one thing and like, okay, what do we get to the next? Where do we get to the next, rather than growing, growing, growing, growing. And then you seek massive companies who have so many holes in their company and have so many employees. And it's kind of like, how do we fix the internal structures basically, or improve the internal structures first improve. And then fix is basically what it is. And they missed the improved part and they have to go fix things. So, so, okay.

Sean Sullivan (21m 20s):
Hobby, any hobbies that, you know, you want to talk about, you know, that help you kind of re re inspire you, re-energize you, when you go back into, when you do, when you do what you do with work,

Neil Miller (21m 33s):
I think the, the two things that I'm doing right now, one, I, I like like running specifically trail running. Like if, if I have to run on the road, I'll do it, but I rarely ever choose that. It's almost because it's raining outside. Right. I can't get out there, but there's something about just being outside. I'm going to be going through some woods and just running on those trails. That, that is very therapeutic for me and helps me to feel good about things. So that that's been good. And then lately I'm not much of a musician myself, but I grew up kind of like understanding piano and I played guitar when I was growing up.

Neil Miller (22m 14s):
But now I've gone back to, like, at the end of my day, my work day, I'll go pick up my kids from school, we'll come back. And then usually that sometime around then is when I'll just play piano for like 30 to 30 minutes to an hour. And I'm not really good at it, but it's, it's actually feels, I guess, a human thing to do, just to experiment with music into, to feel like there there's something that, that it definitely touches a part of my brain and my heart that, that other things couldn't do that, trying to be creative, trying to follow rules, but also break the rules and figure out, find the patterns. There's so many directions you can go with music. And so that's, that's a great thing. So those two things then monthly or quarterly, I really try to get out to some forest land that really drives me.

Neil Miller (23m 0s):
I love trees and learning about trees and nature type stuff. So those, those are the big things for me.

Sean Sullivan (23m 7s):
I like it. You know, you mentioned trail running, so what else do you do health wise to kind of center you balance you, you seem to be a very calm person. So I kind of want to know, I think even the, the listeners kind of want to know, you know, how do you, how do you stay centered?

Neil Miller (23m 28s):
A lot of it's perspective. I'm trying to figure out where, where you are in life. What, what's the driving force behind you? So many faith is important to me. I, I take it seriously, but I spent some time in India, too. I spent about six years there. So the faith I have today is not the same as was like before I left, recognizing just like, as a, as a disciple of this, this person of Jesus, like, what does that mean for me to take a divorce of, of all the, the culture around it and all the things that are there by, and just to center on that is important. And I, I've been having a lot of fun recently doing some meditation, contemplative, prayer type things to, to be able to step back and just kinda observe the thoughts and emotions that you're having instead of just living in them all the time.

Neil Miller (24m 22s):
Th that's a thing that's been helpful for me to, to have that century in time and have that feel like, okay, there's, there's something else here. I think another thing is just, you know, I ha I have two kids they're nine and seven. It's just a fun age right now. They're just, they keep my perspective fresh and young. Like, I don't have anybody else in my life. Who's coming up to me and say, Hey, w can you go play outside right now? Like, that's, that's a joy. And that's a privilege to have people in my life that keep that perspective of like, life's not all about getting things done and working in, in achieving goals, but it's also about playing and relaxing and having fun and going outside and all these types of things.

Neil Miller (25m 7s):
So their, their influence on my life, it has been really big as well. And my wife keeps me reminded at listening just to embrace this time we have now. I mean, everyone tells you about how fast kids grow up and it's true. But I remember there was that, that last episode of the office when it ran. And there's a quote from somebody who said, like, I wish, I wish we could know when we were living in the good old days, because you like always look back and like, Oh yeah, life was good back then. And so trying to remember, like, at least for me in my life right now, like this, we are in the good old days. These would be the years that, that I'll, I'll, I'll miss terribly in the future. So trying to embrace those,

Sean Sullivan (25m 49s):
I like that. I think that, I think the Alicia is, will appreciate that being in the present, living in the now. So Neil, you know, thanks for being on the show, Sharon, about the digital workplace, talking about the core missions, talking about leadership, collaboration, and productivity. I know that we could have gone, we could have talked more about, you know, a few more things talking about, you know, what leaders can do, time management. We were talking about humans in the workplace and robots. I mean, we were talking about a bunch of stuff here, as well as you know your, about you, of what your, your mission is, you know, why you do you, do you know, what keeps you centered, you know, hobby, health, family, and everything. So Neil really appreciate you being here on this episode.

Neil Miller (26m 29s):
Yeah. Thanks a lot, Sean. It's been fun. Thanks for traveling with me on my meandering mind, as I think about all sorts of things. So it's, these are, these are the things that drive me. So it's, it's fun to share it with them, with you.

Sean Sullivan (26m 41s):
And it's a lot, it's a lot of fun ideas too. Like it's a lot of great ideas to kind of see, you know, beyond the work beyond, you know, what is my purpose. So really appreciate that. And so all the converged coffee drinkers out there, that's a wrap

0 (26m 54s):
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