Dusty Jones: Hello and thank you for listening to the Teaching math teaching podcast, the teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. The hosts are Eva Thanheiser me Dusty Jones and Joel Amidon today we're talking with Dr. Marrielle Myers. Marrielle is an associate professor of mathematics education in the Department of Elementary and childhood education at Kennesaw State University. We are talking with her for a number of reasons. In particular, we want to learn more about her work in supporting pre service teachers of color in the field. Welcome Marrielle, would you please tell us a bit about yourself and your background.

Marrielle: Yes, thank you all for having me. I'm really excited and honored for this opportunity. Um, so I'll give a brief overview and if I start telling you too much. Just cut me off. So I was born and raised in Durham, North Carolina grew up in the public school system. They're always love math. I was always quote good in math. And I put that in air quotes that everyone can't see, but I was good at how school math was presented so I was able to do things fast and I typically produce correct answers. So I always you know just felt a connection toward math I ultimately pursued a math degree at Hampton University, which is historically black college and university in Hampton, Virginia, then went on to North Carolina State to pursue a Master's and PhD in math education. And I also taught high school mathematics as well. So that is a little bit about me. I had a range of experiences in math classes. So from going to schools that were pretty diverse from kindergarten through 12th grade. And then being an HBC you there were 10 math majors. So not only was I had historically black college, but I was also with 10 people for most of my day. And so it was very different learning and engaging in math in that type of space. And then going from there Hampton had about a population of 5000 students. So then to go to North Carolina State, which had well over 30,000 students and the demographics were completely different. When I started there. So I had a range of experiences in math that I'm sure will come up later in our conversation today as we talk about some other things.

Dusty Jones: Great. So how did you start teaching math teachers.

Marrielle: Um, so I always knew I wanted to teach. I was that child that used to teach my baby doll. So the living room was my classroom I had baby doll set up. I had name tags taped to the hardwood floors. I was, I drove the school bus. I mean, I was a one stop shop. With providing transportation in teaching You know, in my little makeshift world. So I always knew I wanted to teach and then I knew I wanted to teach math and I had a particular professor in college that I thought was brilliant. But I didn't think he was a good teacher. It was clear. You know that he knew a lot. But if we didn't understand something, you know, he would just kind of, we'll just do it like I did, or he would just repeat the same thing again. And I was like, You know what, this isn't helpful. And I was a pure mathematics major undergrad. So before I even started teaching I immediately enrolled into a Masters of Education program because I had not taken any education courses in undergrad. And I just was thinking to myself, I don't want to be this person. Right. I know the math, but I need to actually get some training on how to teach the math. And so I applied to North Carolina State and enrolled in an MVP program there. And was teaching It was there that a wonderful Professor approached me and asked me, had I ever thought about completing a PhD in math it and I was kind of like know who does that and why I don't need that to teach high school and you know we had a conversation about the impact that you can have on one classroom versus the impact that you can potentially have on many classrooms and so I found that to you know really be a compelling thought And so I enrolled in the PhD program so teaching math teachers was never something that I, you know, particularly saw as a part of my journey. And had I not, you know, been exposed to it and had that conversation. It may not have been. But from there. I started the PhD program started doing some research in elementary schools. And so that's how I then shifted to preparing elementary math teachers and it has been quite a journey since then.

Dusty Jones: What was the best advice that you received when you started doing this with teachers.

Marrielle: Some of the best advice I would say wish just to never stop reading. That was something that was important because I think you know when you get into this new position. There are so many things that are coming at you. And you know you're coming out of a doctoral program, you know, and you're just fully immersed in research and now you're, you know, you're like 100% in research and now you're in this new position and you now have to split up your time in ways that many people did not have to before. And so it's easy to let some things kind of fall by the wayside. So that was important advice. Another piece of important advice that I did not necessarily follow, but I will still share it because it was good to not do too much service. But it is so easy to get caught up because there are so many things that you think are worthwhile. There are so many committees. When I was hired. We had a smaller kind of method team and then some people transition into different leadership roles. And so like I chaired a search committee that was hiring for three positions at one time like crease in your right, but it was kind of like either you do it and you have the potential to select your colleagues or you don't do it. And, you know, who knows who will select your colleagues.

Dusty Jones: Yeah, you get what you get.

Marrielle: Exactly. And so, you know, the not getting involved in too much service was good advice, but I think that something that I would now advise people because I learned this is it's okay to do service. But what I realized I was doing was I would kind of say, okay, what am I going to do for service for 2021 and I would kind of Max myself out. And I never allowed space for things that came up organically during the year. And so that's kind of where some of the drain and burden would come because I already kind of budgeted 100 or 110% of my service time and then some statewide something comes up or you know some ad hoc something comes up. That's very important, and that you know would just be a bit too much. So I think I would still tell people to be cautious cautious, excuse me about their service, but to also leave room for things that are we all know are going to come up. 

Dusty Jones: That's really good advice and I I should take that advice as your as you're saying that I'm realizing, that's what I do. Is, I think, okay, it's 2019 2020 last, you know, 12-15 months ago. What am I, what am I plans for the school year. Okay, that's what I'm going to do.  And then other stuff happens. And I don't have any space for these important things that I didn't know about. That's great. Yeah.

Marrielle: Yeah, so I am I'm now trying to be very intentional about budgeting, you know, 70 to 80% and just leaving some type of cushion. Because at this point you know patterns have revealed that there will always be something to pop up. And so having that space help so that I'm not going into everything already just overloaded.

Joel Amidon: Yeah, I really like that the budgeting of time. I'm just thinking of all the different ways I'm falling short of what Marrielle is putting out there of actually thinking about pre pre thinking about my year and think about what, how am I going to spend my time. And then even thinking about creating those cushions, so there's there's like to start. But those are that's I'm going to just emphasize put a star on that. That's some really great advice. So

Marrielle: We need to hold each other accountable. As I am in the process of drafting my my plans for next year. Are we call an FDA faculty performance agreement. So we need to hold each other accountable on this. Yeah.

Eva Thanheiser (she/her): I feel like the other thing I heard in there was that, you know, there is an overwhelming amount of service opportunities and you select you can select the ones that are going to have the most impact or are most important to you instead of just saying, taking the first few or Important to other people. So it sounds like that search committee. One was an important one to not say no to

Marrielle: Mm hmm. Yeah. I think it's about what's important to you. I think there were definitely times where I was intentional about engaging in service that would allow me to work with colleagues across campus, you know, so you can meet and interact with people outside of your department and even outside of your college. So I think all of that is important when you're looking at service, you want to think about, you know, your own personal, professional goals. You want to think about ways you can align your service to your research and to your, you know, fundamental teaching philosophy. So for me, you know, how can this service, how does it relate to my focus on social justice, for example. And so that's something that I consider and then I also think about service across the college and service to the profession, and that's how I really have met and been able to interact with such amazing people. And sometimes that does mean turning down you know things for your department because you are thinking about kind of how to spread your time but yeah I think it's we have to be comfortable with, you know, sometimes saying no. And when we say no. Sometimes articulating you know why we're saying no. Because a lot of times things come down to the chair and sometimes the chair is just kind of pushing them down to us and they may not know or be aware of everything you're doing so.

Joel Amidon: Well, and just say, like, how much you thought you've put into your time you like, you know, it's just like a you know a budget of money is like I actually don't have the budget for this of time and like to say, and because that that that know might that know might be hard to give or the may be harder for the other person to receive but then that means you're yes is worth much more. But if you're saying yes, you're actually going to commit that time to it and So, yeah. It's good. Exactly.

Dusty Jones: Marrielle, you mentioned your commitment to social justice, and I know that you do a lot of work to support pre service teachers of color in the field. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means to you and some of the things that you do.

Marrielle: Yeah, so I'll talk maybe a little bit about where it came from, as well, that actually came from a service opportunity that I probably should not have taken

Joel Amidon: There you go.

Marrielle: So my second year at Kennesaw I became the program coordinator for my program. Which we had a program coordinator for the junior year and then another for this senior year and we have about 200 students in the junior year and about 200 and a senior year. So we have a pretty large program. So here I am. Second, your faculty and now program coordinator For a huge program. And so in that role. I worked with and coordinated student teachers and their, you know, work with our placement office and I noticed that supervisors, because we have so many students. We have supervisors who are primarily retired principals elementary principals. And so I was noticing some patterns of behaviors that were being reported to me about, you know, student issues in the field and I remember one day I was packing up to leave my office I opened my door. And when I opened my door to students were standing there. One was in tears. And she said, Are you about to leave. I said, well, I am but it seems like you may need me and she said yes. And so, you know, I set my stuff down and we talked, and she just broke down. And explained to me that she wanted to leave the program. And that she was having negative experiences in her classroom. And so I asked her to tell me a little bit more And she told me about how her mentor teacher had made comments about her natural hair. She was a black woman this student was her mentor teacher had made comments about her natural hair and told her if it kept getting bigger. She wouldn't be able to fit in the door of the classroom. She one day they were sitting together at lunch and my student complimented another teacher, you know, said I really like your dress her mentor teacher said you only said that to her because she's black like you The mentor teacher was not allowing her to teach in the classroom. She had her stapling papers and Sharpening pencils. You know she wasn't really, you know, giving her Any type of real opportunities to practice what she had been learning, which is, you know, part of our agreement with the schools and this stuff has been building I asked my student had she talked with her supervisor about this because I just wanted to kind of better understand and she had and the supervisor. You know, kind of thought it was a quote personality mismatch. So it was through that experience. And a few other experiences that I really started to realize the role of these micro aggressions that were happening in the field that Our students were facing. And I also started to realize that our supervisors could not recognize them. So the supervisors, you know that we hire and pay and interest with our students. To advocate for them and support them. They could not recognize these things as micro aggressions because you know i mean they were also there are part of this system as well. And so at that point, I started to think about what needed to happen to support our students what needed to happen to support supervisors and what needed to happen to address these types of concerns with mentor teachers. So I kind of began to do a little digging and quickly learn that we had no system in place to record this type of data. So this very same teacher could be assigned another teacher next year. Right. You know, we don't. We didn't capture data on the mentor teachers because we have so many I mean across both years of our programs and early placements just my department. We may have four to 500 students in placements. That's a lot of teachers. Yeah, and that's not secondary middle grades, which is another department. We also have an instructional technology department, we have a special ed department. And we have an ED leadership department. So we don't necessarily have the luxury of being selective that's kind of what I was told, we kind of just have to take whatever placements. We were given So that kind of spiraled into what we need to have some conversations about What we own our students, you know, do we really want to just kind of take this on will. Oh, we have a large program. We just take what we get this student was ready to drop out. Right. You know, so we talk about why there is a lack of diversity in the profession and Why you know students from certain demographics don't complete programs this student had been very successful with her coursework and was ready to drop out of the program at the finish line. Because of an experience she was having with the mentor teacher, and then the responses. Well, we just have to take what we can get. So, um, you know, I started kind of having conversations at the leadership team level about that. In this specific case I remove that student from the field and placed her with another mentor teacher I attempted to have a conversation with the principal. The principal assured me that my student was mistaken that this was a superstar teacher that the parents love this teacher And so there was nothing to have a conversation about You know, I introduced the language of micro aggressions and asked if you know we could at least just talk about it because I thought that was going on to principal did not think that was the case. So I talked with our placement office about like, you know, can we just not work with this school. You know, I think that We have to take a position as a university as a department to say if you can't work with and support all of our students, then you don't get to work with any of our students. We're not going to only send you a certain type of student You know, so there was that element. The other element. That kind of emerged was realizing the need for counter spaces. And so in the past few years, I have had colleagues, actually, that have started a black teachers matter group. And then we also have another colleague or two colleagues that started a Latin next student group. And so those groups, both now service counter spaces for our students and You know, I actually presented at the black teachers matter group last year, a whole kind of session on micro aggressions and it was an opportunity for students to just share some of what they had experienced to talk about strategies to deal with things. So there's kind of a multi layered approach part of part of what we need is structural supports right so that we can capture data we can, you know, choose to use or not use certain teachers anymore. So we need those structural things in place. We also need to support the students as well. And then we also need training for supervisors, so I collected a number of kind of vignettes that occur during my time as program coordinators to develop Or is program coordinator, excuse me, to develop training for the university supervisors, because I realized they couldn't handle it. So I developed a training and we kind of look at these vignettes and really just kind of unpack them to talk about what's going on. And so that they can You know, think about or rehearse people be familiar with that language, but they can kind of rehearse how they might respond to some of these scenarios that their student teachers face. And so there was this educative component component that needed to happen with the supervisors to help them see most. I mean, if we have, I would say 90 to 95% of our supervisors are white women. That are 6065 and older again because they're retired elementary principles. So you know that piece was really important as well. That was a long answer. I know.

Joel Amidon: That's outstanding I mean just the, I mean, Just how you taking these this I mean one modeling for your student, like, Hey, I'm not going to just let this, you know, let this go  And to do all the investigate and to look into it in like what are our options and and the even lean out like let's pull our, our Pre service teachers from the school and thinking about how do we respond in this way. I mean, just what a What an example for the students that we're not just going to let this go but even thinking about and just because I'm playing some of these things in my own head about the need to record the data and then training supervisors so Besides, have been yet. Is there any, anything else like you do any ongoing training or, or at least a feedback loop that you have with them on, like, Hey, what are we seeing out in the field. Are you noticing anything

Marrielle: I am not serving as Program Coordinator anymore. But I did when I was, I had regular meetings with them, where we would talk about some of these scenarios. You know, students would come to need To talk about these scenarios as well. We still don't have anything in place. At the college level to capture data, you know, to kind of record data to say, you know, we don't want to use this particular teacher anymore. That is, you know, something that kind of keeps me up at night because we need it. I mean I had another case where a mentor teacher You know requested that a student be removed because the student didn't dress professionally. You know, when I talked with the student about it, the student was so excited to be a student teacher, you know, she said, I take a picture of myself every morning and send it to my mom, I can show you what I've worn every day. I've been teaching. She showed me and it may have not been maybe it was not the most fashionable, you know, but she she was dressing in line with her religious attire. And so what it came down to is that the culture of this particular school was Tory Burch and lutein and you know yeah free people you know like expensive high end brands. Right. And then we have this student, that is, you know, in long ankle skirts and you know dress very modestly. And that just doesn't buy well with us. Right. You know, how do we have our students in these places, right. This has this not happened before had the no one care. That, you know, a student should not have to go through the mental exhaustion and fatigue of this Because when a teacher says a student can't come back. They don't get to go back, you know, there is no negotiation, they don't get to go back And let's say it takes us two weeks to find them. Another placement. They are now behind and completing their hours. And so to know that those types of decisions were being made by teachers because of race because of gender expression or identity because of a tire was very problematic. And you know there were particular dynamics when you kind of this aggregated that data that you know spoke to students of pre service teachers of color. So that's something and I I would love to talk with colleagues, if they have ways to capture this if their departments, look at this, I would like to know how that process unfolded. Because I think we have to take more ownership and be more protective of our students, instead of just feeling like, oh, wherever, whoever will take them will send them.

Joel Amidon: Absolutely.

Dusty Jones: So Marrielle, what would you say makes a good day in your profession, like in your if you think about this past you know semester as it's been going through Maybe Maybe that's Maybe that's semester to choose.

Marrielle: This semester probably has taught me something. I mean, one example just pop right into my head and I think a good day is when I'm able to connect with and support my students And with everything we've been experiencing because of the pandemic. They have needed more support than normal. You know, some of my students are taking 18 credit hours it's virtual they have children at home with them and they may also have a job. And so they're trying to juggle a lot and There was one day, I was just so frustrated because my internet at home went out. I mean, I just the zoom kept cutting in and out, you know, a student sent a message and said, I just got a note that said, I'm now the host of the class. You know, it's just like, Ah, geez. And so I was so frustrated because I'm thinking, you know, I'm not going to be able to teach you know this is going to throw me off a week, blah, blah, blah. And I said, You know what, this is a sign. We need a break. You know, we, this is not going to work today clearly out email you guys about some things we were going to do. But in the meantime, if anyone would like to speak with me, you know, Send me an email, you know, because I still had phone access and we can chat. And so even though I wasn't able to teach that day I had some of the most powerful phone conversations with students that I've ever had. And it ended up what felt like a nightmare in the midst of it right you know I mean I have everything queued I have my laptop. I have my iPad. I have all of my stuff. What felt like a nightmare ended up being a good day, because I was reminded why I do what I do and it's to support my students And so to just hear some challenges that they were experiencing to be able to talk them through some things to offer them some other lenses to think about what they were going through to remind them that they did have support to validate what they were feeling and that we're all overwhelmed. To just put some things in perspective that ended up being a good day. And so one thing I have learned, I'm being reminded of during the pandemic is just the importance of our human interactions, um, you know, sometimes there's so much focus on you know the content and pacing and Thank God, our state got RID OF ed tPA. We can edit that out if we need to. Um, but so you know that just kind of lesson. Some of the burden that students experience and that we, you know, feel like we were dealing with this will but just that sense of connection is important. Because it's also something that I hope they can model. So something that I have been focused on is that I need to be intentional about extending grace to my students because I also want them to extend grace to people that they are working with. And so I have been able to model that And so, that felt like a really good day.

Dusty Jones: This semester. That's, that's great. And, you know, on the one hand, you, you could have said. I didn't get to teach all the stuff I had planned to teach that was a bunch of wasted preparation. Now I'm mess schedules messed up. And I'm just grumpy. But I like how you reframe that and we're able to kind of think what is important to me. And it's that human those human interactions and you're able to actually turn it around and just maybe view it through a different lens. I mean it didn't make the internet work. But you still like you said you had some really good interactions that probably maybe would not have happened. I'm guessing.

Marrielle: Yeah, I don't

Dusty Jones: If the internet had works.

Marrielle: Mm hmm. Because class would have ended, and they would have felt like I don't have time. It's on to the next thing. I teach this class is 2pm to 5pm so these students have been in class eight to 1111 to two and I am now the third class to five. So they have been virtual all day. So when we finish at Five. You know, I'm like, completing goodbye. Have a great evening. And people are dropping off. You know, little boxes are dropping off of the zoom. You know, at an exponential rate. So, so, though I don't think those conversations would have happened because they would have likely felt like, you know, I don't have time to stay around for this conversation, you know, even though I think it's nice that you want to check up on me. So, yeah.

Dusty Jones: Marrielle What sorts of things do you do for fun. How do you balance the work stuff out.

Marrielle: Pre call that fine. I ballroom dance. I actually pick that up during my dissertation. So I kind of had a plan that if I would work and meet my goals that Friday evenings, I would go dance go ballroom dancing for a couple of hours. And so that was one of my favorite hobbies and, you know, ways that I just kind of relax and you cannot think about Math. Math and you can't think about any of that stuff when you're ballroom dancing so it you know I just kind of can completely flip the switch and of course traveling, which I miss I also am involved in some community based work in Atlanta that focuses on supporting small businesses minority owned small businesses. And so we used to post a lot of pop up events and workshops to help these and incubator type programs to help get these businesses launched and supported and so I did quite a bit of that pre COVID One thing that has come out of Kobe that has been good for me is reconnecting with nature. So I have spent a lot of time outside hiking. I bought a bike. Her name is sky. She died and so sky and I hit the trail. And so that has been good over the summer. I would just go sit outside in the sun, at times, you know, I mean, there was nothing to do, nowhere to go. I would just sit outside and read You know, just listen to the birds and nature. So that has been good because restaurants closed. I had to remind myself that I want to cook. I started cooking again and I actually realized it's not that bad. I think I had just talked myself out of it and convince myself that oh it's easier to eat out and union ganja. And I'm like, oh, you know what, it's actually not that bad. And I actually am you know pretty decent. So, um, I started cooking a lot more during Kovac to so some some pre and post or pre and during. Yeah. Oh, good thing is to stay balance and music, of course, music is always great to stay balance.

Dusty Jones: Do you have anything that you'd like to promote since we're on the podcast. Anything that you or someone you know that is doing something and you think this is cool people need to know about that.

Marrielle: I'm cool. Of course, the AMTE virtual conference early registration is open now. I'm excited as people probably know I'm on the board so much work has gone into planning a meaningful virtual conference. And so I'm really excited about the speakers and the panels and the sessions. So that's coming up, um, Let's see. Another thing that I'll just say is that even though it feels like we're disconnected, which we are physically connecting in virtual spaces has been great. So There's always something being posted in like some Facebook group, you know, so I won't even share some things because by the time this airs, some may have passed and others will be coming up. But there are just so many free seminars. I actually have organized one that's happening this Friday in my college that is about Settler Colonialism, and the colonizing curriculum in educational spaces and be colonizing pre service teacher education. And so we have three panelists that are going to be coming and I'm really excited to think about that and to learn from them and think about how that intersects with the work that I do. So I also have enjoyed kind of branching a little bit outside of kind of my typical wheelhouse during this time because of some of the virtual interactions. I've had with people.

Dusty Jones: That sounds cool. Eva. Any last questions, Joel.

Joel Amidon: Well, we definitely appreciate the As being sponsored by empty the plug for the conference know and there's lots of work going into that and also just, you know, the things that you think like you can do within your college that example. You just gave in like Maybe even the silver lining is that it might not be. It might be a little bit easier to put together something virtual a virtual experience for folks to learn a little bit something about, um, And so in to invite somebody to talk at something, even though that they're across the country to. So yeah, that's just the little things that we can do during this time. That's good examples there. Yeah, because now we don't have to pay for people's travel

Marrielle: Yeah it Makes it more affordable. You know, and that's why even put out there that if there are ways that other people have found meaningful ways, you know, to partner with schools and districts You know, because we want to hold each other accountable. Right. You know, and we want to make sure that we're placing our teacher candidates in places where of course they can grow and be challenged, but we want them to thrive. We act like it, it broke my heart to know that as a parent of family someone entrusted their student with us in this program and that they were experiencing that under my watch and that I didn't know right for so many weeks into it. And so, you know, just connecting with people like I would love to connect with people about that process and what that looks like. I am now also serving as the director of diversity, equity and advocacy for my college So, Even though I am no longer port program coordinator. I'm now able to do and engage in some of this work at the college level which is exciting. Because we have to move beyond only thinking about programming, but to also think about policy and procedure because programs are kind of subject to come and go, but we have to think about structural change to really support our students and to support ourselves and our work.

Excellent.

Dusty Jones: Marrielle. Thanks so much for talking with us today. I've really enjoyed it.

Marrielle: Thank you all so much for having me. This has been great. It's been very refreshing. And I look forward to this being shared with our community and you know look forward to engaging in conversations that will emerge because of it. So thank you all so much for the opportunity.

Dusty Jones: Well, thanks. We appreciate it. And thanks again to our listeners for listening to the Teaching math teaching podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and we hope that you're able to implement something you just heard and take an opportunity to interact, perhaps even virtually with other math teacher educators