0:00 Hello and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. The hosts are Eva fan hyzer dusty Jones and me. I'm Joel Amidon. Today we are talking with Teddy Chao, who is an assistant professor of mathematics education in the department of teaching and learning at The Ohio State University. We are talking to Teddy because he's interesting. His research is at the cross section of technology, mathematics, education, issues of equity and diversity, and we cannot wait to talk to him about his work, teaching math teachers. Welcome Teddy. Do you want to take a minute to introduce yourself? 0:39 Sure. Thanks. I you know, it's a pleasure to be here. And an honor. I am a big fan of all you all and of the podcast to that since it's been on for the last, I guess almost the last semester. So my name is Teddy Chow, you might have heard of me, so called by Theodore Chao professionally, I have done a lot of stuff in the world of math education. Mainly, I focus on issues of equity within elementary education. And I just got an NSF Career Award to study digital math. Yeah. So I I'm in that space where I'm like, Oh, crap, I got to figure this out. So I hope it's cool that a lot of it for me a lot of this podcast is me asking you our questions on how to how to run my grant. Fantastic. Yeah. 1:24 No, can you say a little bit about the grant? 1:26 Yeah, it's about digital math, storytelling. So the idea is, you know, we, I think as math educators, we all know how the amazing mathematical knowledge that children hold, and oftentimes that mathematical knowledge, particularly for children from minoritized, communities, or children of color, it's not necessarily legitimize within our math curriculum, or even within the assessments that we use. But it's amazing. I'm trying to really connect a lot of my background in film and media, with the ability for children to tell amazing narratives and stories. So just a quick example is, I did a pilot study in which a little fourth grader sorry, not a little, a fourth fourth grade girl made a video about the intricate mathematics that happens when her mom and her aunts cook dinner together, and how they're able to make seven dishes appear hot and ready for a 16 person dinner. And you know, it's just a quick video, and she made it very much like tic Tock Snapchat style. And it was one of most beautiful things I've ever seen, because it really showcased her family members as mathematicians doing math, in cooking. And so I think that there's a lot of power in children being able to tell their own narratives, and particularly tell their own narratives around the mathematics that they see and interact with everyday. 2:38 That's awesome. Yeah. Well, I mean, and so you kind of brushed on it in your intro there. But how did you get to this place now? So back us up a little bit? How did you start teaching math teachers? And why? And again, even backing up to your your background in film? 2:55 Yeah. So my undergraduate degree is in Film and Media Studies, and also in computer science, engineering. And I think I was always fascinated by this idea of visual storytelling, the idea that we are creatures in which the things that we remember the things that we hold on to the histories, not just the official histories, but the histories of the people of the communities are always told in story format. And you're here in the United States, we follow this Eurocentric script, which, you know, largely comes from Shakespeare and other of the Canon works of what a story should sound like sort of search should feel like. And so I was always fascinated with how that transformed into a medium, being able to process and talk about them visually, you know, in filmmaking and television, and now short form videos that would then there's a whole story about how I moved from that world into becoming a middle school teacher, a lot of it was just, I was working as computer programmer at these columns. And I loved the teaching aspect. I loved the working with community aspect, I hated the actual programming and working in technology. But I didn't really get started in my teaching math teachers. Until my first year as a doctoral student at University of Texas, I was working on a project called sim calc with Susan Empson. And it was an amazing project. There's a lot of really great people focusing on how to bring these ideas of calculus, using a technology called sim calc from Jim capelet screw. And then really just using them with sixth and seventh grade teachers. And I remember I was a first year doctoral student, I just come right into the classroom. And next thing I know helping to run professional development, or I'm going into into classrooms to observe and the teacher would be like, I really don't know how to do this, you might model in this lesson for me, and I'm like, Sure, why not? I think that's when I realized that there's a lot of fear in teaching a lesson the right way, or teaching a lesson the wrong way, or how mathematics should be taught. It shouldn't be taught. It's when I saw that, as a professional developer, or as a researcher who's coming in to like, help them make sure they stay close to what we think is important. There's actually this whole spectrum of tissue moves that you can do have the questions you can ask of the backgrounds of the classrooms that you're in of the neighborhood in the community, that I thought as a teacher, I never really got a grasp on. So I really was fascinated by this whole aspect of working with teachers. And then after that, I started teaching the elementary math methods courses at University of Texas and had a really fun time learning the intricacies of how to work with pre service teachers. Nice. 5:24 So, you know, the next question we like to ask is, what would you I mean, so you talk about your whole history there. So what would you have liked to known when you started teaching math teachers, 5:35 you know, we all think about our first year teaching and how horrible it was. And I think about like, my first few years working professional development, and how I was so captured in this way of framing teachers and the work that teachers do, you know, I think a lot of us who work in mathematics, education research, sometimes we go in with an agenda of what we need to happen in a classroom, we have this, this these measures that we want our teachers to stick to a script, and really implement with a high fidelity what the intervention is, or what we want to do, I fell in that trap my first year. And I think I really, I came in telling, you know, these veteran teachers what I needed to see, I came in talking to add them as opposed to to them. And I wish that I had known better that you'd have to listen to teachers, they're professionals, they are amazing people, they have an incredible skill set. And especially when you're working with veteran teachers who volunteer to sign up for a project or sign up professional development or give up a Saturday to work with you. They're not doing that, because they have nothing better to do, right, they're actually giving up a significant amount of time, it's a big sacrifice for them to come up with you. So what I would like to know is, you know, really take time to listen and check in with teachers and be cool with them in the same way that you would with students. And in terms of advice that I received. When I was a graduate student, I had a graduate student sister ship with the Dana center. And Henri Treisman, who was the executive director of the data center told me he was you have to treat teachers like the professionals they are, because that's what keeps them coming back. And I remember in the professional boundaries we did, he made sure that we did them at Hotel conference rooms or conference centers, he made sure we catering he made sure that the name tags were printed out and ready for the teachers, you know that when they came to an event, they really felt like they were being treated the way they should they were really treated. Well. And I think that resonate with me is it changes the whole tenure of the way that we work and operate. When teachers feel like they're being treated as professionals. 7:26 That's awesome. I mean, just yeah, even but, hey, we're honoring your time and like, you know, the little things that matter like that you just laid out something like why you could really save a lot of money, but like, how if we're treating them like professionals, how better Do you think that they're going to professionally take up what you're offering, or the conversations that are going to happen? That's, I hadn't thought about that. That's pretty amazing. The piece of advice, what advice would you give to someone else starting out in this role that comes to you like, hey, Dr. Chow, what do you got to say, 7:54 I think 2020 is a very different era than when I started off as a math teacher, educator, even as a math teacher, I think the immediate advice I would give to anyone is get on Twitter, and really curate your professional identity, like really focus on making sure that you you know, and I hate to use the word brand, because it's so corporate. But you know, make sure that your identity as a math teacher, educator or someone who operates in the sphere of education is one that you're very careful about what it looks like and feels like. And so that the things that you tweet out the interactions you have people know who you are people remember you, people understand the complexity of the questions, you're asking the things you'll be tweeting, and the things that you offer to other teachers. It's amazing to me how much our field has really shifted, in terms of social networks, but also just the ability to reach out and have and have really deep meaningful conversations with people across the country across the globe. My advice is all the things that took me years to do create relationships with teachers, right? Sometimes it takes a year or two, right? Really get to understand and know the complexity of of a school district. Man, it takes a year to read up and learn what's going on in terms of a particular curriculum, right, that can take a while. All these things are accelerated rapidly, particularly through things like Twitter, which we can really get to know we know how the parents and teachers feel about a particular score just by reading through some tweets. You can really like this podcast that you want to you can really get to know a lot of the intricacies of what it means to do certain things right like teaching our mind and improving your instruction to virtual space by listening to some podcast. So that's my advice is get on line. 9:30 You want me to Venmo that payments. Thank you We really appreciate that's really, I mean thinking stepping back and thinking about even just where we were at the beginning of 2020 to now but I mean, so much has changed and just thinking about how do we participate within there and being agents within that. And speaking of participating, Eva and dusty anything to that caught your interest in what Teddy is brought to the table so far. 9:57 Yeah, I'll jump in. So Teddy Hold meters A few years ago, get on Twitter. And I'm still struggling with that though I'm working at it. But I've noticed I've started a website that I really put a lot of stuff on, so people can access to things that I have developed. And that has led to a lot of conversation. And I am okay on Facebook, I still need help Teddy with how to work Twitter in a way that you do. So I'm wondering if you could give a few examples or advice pieces for people who are not yet very proficient at Twitter of how to go about starting? 10:37 Yeah, sure. So I'll preface this by saying for me, every year, I sort of come up with a theme that's going to define my youth and I try to work towards, you know, it's it really helps ground me spiritually. This year, for 2020. My theme was disconnect. So I actually tried to add to be less on social media and less on Twitter. And this was probably the worst year to try to do that, as we were all forced to disconnect physically. And I realized that I had no idea what was going on. So my Twitter game actually been pretty lacking, I would say these last few months. But you know, I by no means a Twitter connoisseur expert, I think what I like about Twitter is that it works with the way my mind works easily. And that it's, if you're looking for an organization, if you're looking for things to be laid out, well, it's not going to be there. But if you're looking to be able to jump in and other conversations, and you're looking for just people being raw about things, and also being able to sort of, I would say the thing about spread love is being able to hover, right being able to pick up on conversations that might actually be in group conversations. So it's not to jump into like the differences between Facebook groups and Twitter. But you know, Facebook has some amazing stuff. And I see all three of you actively on the many groups that we're involved with, on Facebook, my problem with a lot of those sorts of private conversations, right, you have to be in the group or you have to be invited to the group. And it's a curated membership. Whereas Twitter, you just pop in the hashtag, and instantly you're there. And there's oftentimes you can see some really intimate conversations that people are having. But they're having them publicly so you can hear what's happening and what's going on. Right, I have to shout out. The amazing state that I'm in Ohio, for having the Ohio Council of Teachers of maddix, which is our state version of nctm is really, really good about hosting Twitter chats about really having conversations on Twitter and using Twitter as a great tool for connecting teachers, and also connecting teacher educators. And because of my six years here in Ohio, and working with them, and curating some of their Twitter chats, I've really learned, a lot of it is just about having really good hashtags. A lot of it is about having these weekly chats that you check into. A lot of it is about, you know, just fire reading stuff and then re tweeting it and then seeing where the conversation goes. 12:53 Can you give me an idea of what sort of classes you teach? What level? Or what content that the teachers or at least I could say in the fall coming up? Or in the past spring or just in general? Sure, 13:06 thanks. So I mainly work with the our elementary teacher education program. So here at Ohio State, our elementary program is nice in that it's it's an early childhood elementary program. So it's pre K, all the way through fifth grade. And I've been teaching a masters and undergraduate level methods course and math methods course for them. Since I've been here for about six years now. I also teach doctoral and master's level courses on equity and diversity on critical issues in a stem curriculum, and particularly in use the use of technology, using and building mobile apps and developing technology for use in STEM education. Cool. 13:42 Thanks. So 30, what makes a good day for you in your profession? Can you give some examples? 13:48 Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, a good day really involves spending time with my family. I know you all have kids and spend a lot of time with your family. If I can have time with my family, in a day when I can have time, really involved in some deep thinking in a day. And when I can have time, being involved in some sort of fun learning experience. Those are good days. And what I mean by fun learning experience, it's sometimes watching my own kids pick up something or work through a problem. Sometimes it's a being in a classroom and just watching a teacher do something really cool and taking the risk or listening to a kid explain something in ways that they're you can see that they're explained to themselves in a way that they understand for the first time. Those are great days. Oh, and anytime there's lots of really good food. 14:37 We've been, you know, in quarantine, we're here together. And we have three kids and we play a lot of games. And we picked up a card game with some logic and it's got some, some logic to it. So where kid has a hand and it's my eight year old who has his hand and all of a sudden he starts talking big like and we'd like to do that in games like you know, maybe a little trash talk and during our games, and all of a sudden he's talking like I'm like why? What does Do and like, keep in like at the end, he cleared out the he got all the hands for himself. And he's like I knew after you played that card, he laid it out like how he knew. And all this. It's almost like a proof. He just said, it was like the most beautiful thing. I'm like, Can you do that again? And I just record you, but like, yeah, it's just family time. But beautiful, like amazing learning is just like what you said that I agree with that some good things. Yeah, but so with that, if you've got to have family time, you got to you still got to get things done. So Teddy, how do you get things done? 15:32 I don't know, man. 15:36 And that's the podcast. 15:39 I know be I mean, to be honest, or like I, um, my 10 year old came in this this month. And so yeah, good. Yeah. Thanks. And so there's a part of me, it's like, Yeah, got it. And there's also a part of me, like, How the heck did that happen? Right? Like I right, I think all of us are. And I know it's not just me, right? But I, we live in a space in which we focus on the things we haven't done yet, or the things, the other things we wish we had more time to do. And we actually don't realize how much we're getting done. I fall in this trap, where all I can think about is like, all the things I wish I was getting done. And then all the ways in which I'm not keeping up with all the things I plan for myself. But I'd say what I found works well is having a regular weekly plan, having strategic plans, I try to do a strategic plan every semester, I find that usually around the eight or nine week mark, I have to completely shift my what my plan was for this semester, I have a checklist that I look at daily, and then if I make it through most of it, I'm happy. If not, then you know, I realize I'm falling behind. I realized I got asleep. I think early on in my teaching career, I go to sleep, I sleep for five hours, and then just you know, wake up in the morning and teach. I think I realized that that's not good, right? I, I got to sleep a lot. And daily journaling and prayer, I think it's really important to for me is to keep touch with who I am spiritually and also who I want to be. And I found that all of that has led to realizing what's important for myself, wanting to maintain physical fitness to exercise, want to surround myself with community and impact communities. And they're learning how to build it slowly and what other people you can invite into your community to create that world. And then all that ends up helping you love yourself more. And I feel like for me that's been the journey is really learning to love myself. And when I find that I'm doing those things, magical things happen. things work out in ways that you don't expect. But it's a lot I realized, as I'm listening to these things, I'm like, it's a lot more than I thought it'd be of just like showing up to Russian development in like teaching a lesson to teachers. 17:37 Now. That's so nice, holistic view of that question. I appreciate that. So where do you you know, Teddy, where I know, I look up to you as someone who is fairly savvy and you talked about your background? So where do you go online to find resources? 17:51 There's so many good places right now, I think for me, one of the problems is there's actually too much, you know, like one of the weird things that happened during the quarantine, right? It's like so many math educators, so many great educators were wanting to help and put their stuff online, that I think our field got a little bit saturated in that I can't find everything I want now, right? And so it requires a lot of savvy, right to be able to figure out where to go, I used to really trust some people call them midbass or you know, the MTB OS hashtag that's changed over the years and that it's just become like an annuity with people trying to promote their stuff. So I used to say Twitter was really good. But now you have to you have to be careful about what you're finding and looking at it Twitter. I think that this is where our organizations within our affiliate really help. I think, you know, yeah, like you all think this is an AMT podcast like AMT is always put out quality stuff, whether it's the publications, whether it's the newsletter, or this podcast, or even the MTV journal, even I were a part of for a while. At least I know that that's real, that's been vetted. And then it's good I can, I can hand it to a teacher, I can hand it off. I also want to shout out some really, really great math teacher educators out there who've been writing a lot of great texts, like I saw that you just did an episode with Manny Jansen. I mean, she, anytime she posts something, I know it's gonna be good. Like she's, she curates stuff really? Well. I've gotten so much mileage out of Tracy's igarss book, how to be the math teacher you wish you had. And also just like all the stuff that she has been curating at Stenhouse publishers, like, it's good stuff. And that's the stuff that I know that I can hand directly to a teacher that I work with, whether they actually sit down and read it or not, at least they have something to, to read and look at. That doesn't just seem like it's coming up. Like I'm making all this stuff up. When I talk to them, right, then it's actually other people saying the same things. 19:43 Yeah, that's good. I mean, you know, thank you again, for mentioning our podcast and other other controversial contribution today. But I mean, you're talking about building community and like getting those connections to folks that you're like, yeah, you don't want that voice. There's there's folks that I'm hearing mean out there that are offering some good stuff out there and then connect, you know, creating those connections, you know, there's more technology comes out, it's like it more comes down to the human connections, I don't know, it's it's that they can break down some of those physical barriers, because we don't necessarily like we're doing this podcast, you don't necessarily have to be in the same room with each other to make those connections. 20:19 That's actually a question that I have for you is, I hate to be an echo chamber. I think a lot of us in this work, we end up citing each other or finding resources that people that we know that we met, because it's it's good stuff, when we're all working in the same field. I'm often worried about, you know, my inability to find things from outside my own networks, right from people who are not online, from people who might be in other countries in which the way that they approach math teaching is so different, and the way that they build community so different, you know, how do I hear those stories? How do I hear about the great work that they're doing that? You know, that's part of why I'm doing my NSF grant on storytelling, particularly within communities of color. But I worry a lot that what we're doing a math teacher education, still very much comes from one particular like, highly educated, PhD research university based frame. And that's not the only way I think that we can approach this game, 21:15 I am super excited about story grant that you have. There is, I think, a lot of work in the field in general now to look at who is in power, who has power, and who has power shapes, all the stories. So I can't wait to see what comes from your grant to help give some voice to people who have not had voice. There's a book that I've been reading currently that just came out, it's called Data feminism that really does a nice job of showing that and Laurie rebels work is highlighted in there. And just this notion of Let's Move away from the standard way of collecting data and analyzing it, and let's look at how to share data that maybe hasn't been looked at. To me, that's really exciting. And it's very exciting that you're doing this because you have all this background. I don't know why the film, like I feel like I know it, and I forgot it. So it was new for me again, today. But that's really cool. So less a question and more just pondering that as we're moving into a new era. Hopefully, that gives voice to people who haven't had voice, we might need to reconsider how to represent things and also potentially how to publish things. 22:50 Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the insight. And one thing that I think that I've, I've learned over the years, I used to use this term of giving voice or giving voice to my my students. And you know, Li Patel, it's not about giving voice, right. It's the people we work with the people who sometimes are marginal, they've always had a voice. It's about stepping back and opening up avenues, right, that we who have privileged enough power can open, right, so that their voices can be heard. It's not up to give voice or to curate their voice. It's rather, like what I've learned from in my work is, sometimes I do more by just stepping back or stepping aside. 23:27 Yeah, focusing on the listening. And, you know, speaking 23:30 with Laurie rebel was somebody who I met, like, in my first year of teaching, my teacher education program, and wow, yeah, it was just amazing. You know, I think she was just starting her career as a professor. And I think back then, like, you know, people you meet early on that had an instrumental impact in just helping you think, outside of what you think you're supposed to do. And so I love seeing her, get her recognition for the amazing work you should be doing, particularly with the spatial justice work. So 23:58 Teddy, what is something that you've been really excited about? So 24:01 today is a it's the end of June 2020. And we've been living in this world, I think, for the last two or three weeks. That is, that have had massive amounts of Black Lives Matter demonstrations globally. And I think it's a moment that I never thought would happen in which I've been to some of the demonstrations here in Columbus, Ohio, and they are majority white. They are these beautiful, peaceful demonstrations of love. in which it's, it doesn't feel like it's as racially dichotomous, it really is people coming together to recognize and justice and to do something about it. I think we're in a place that I'm excited about because I feel like we might finally be ready to have a conversation that we haven't been able to have for 400 years as a country, right? towards really talking about addressing the sin of slavery. Poor is really having honest conversations about things like reparations, really having conversations about apologies for not just black America, but for colonialism, slavery in this entire system of plunder, that is so part of our capitalistic system, and yet is never really acknowledged in the way that it's violent repercussions, you know, exists in all the work that we do, right? So much of the work that we do is teacher educators as educators, is really about the inequities happening within our school system. I think all of us who work in math recognize the gatekeeping role that math plays, and the ways that you know, math is connected to power, and that you either have access to it, or you're pushed out of it. I'm excited that in my work as an educator, I've been thinking about issues equity for so long. I'm excited about maybe not having to think about it. Right, that, that we might be moving towards a moment in which it's so embedded into our everyday discourse, and the ways that we think about things that maybe I always think like, I would just love to think and do math all day long sometimes. And yet, I can't and I can't because we also have to talk about these issues of equity. But could we live in a world in which those issues are front and center and everything we do, so that we can have like, I can go to a math teacher circle and just focus on math? and not feel like issues of power are not a part of that conversation? 26:30 Yeah, just thinking about that. And like thinking about all the different positive things that are happening. And you're also thinking about the conversations that are happening. And people being purely unable to have conversation maybe that they haven't been able to have before and the perspectives that are able to be in highlighted, it's that I'm excited about that, too. So but what do you do for fun, Teddy? So how do you how do you balance things out? You mentioned a few things before, but what are some other things that you mentioned family time? 26:59 Yeah, I don't know. Man, I like ice. I spent a lot of time with my family. It's been a lot of time with the kids. I spent a lot of time cooking. For those of you who follow my Instagram, it's mainly just, you know, me cooking and taking pictures of it pretending that it looks good. 27:15 Do it for the gram. Yeah, 27:16 that's right. 27:17 I you know, since the quarantines started playing, I've been playing a lot more video games that I ever have before. That's been fun playing playing things like Animal Crossing with the kids. And doing a reading show you and I had a conversation about this is like, I can't believe how much time I spend coaching kids sports, like I did not think that as a parent that this would be my whole life. But you know, pre quarantine, it's like that was my whole weekends. Yeah, but the one thing I really do for fun, and this is not really quantifiable, is build community. It's not easy to do. And it requires everything. And at the same time, it actually doesn't require anything, it actually should feel natural. I think a lot of what I spend my energy on is reaching out talking, having conversation being present, listening. And it's only in the last year that I realized that that all that work actually is work. It's not just something that I can pretend, you know, I should wish I was spending my time being more productive. Like, that's work. And that's actually what I find extremely fulfilling and fun. Yeah, it just, 28:18 it is the time of the quarantine. And this where you're physically away from people. And I can't think of a word more that I point to now that I value more than that of community. And like I just like the way that you it is work it is things that you need to do. But the things that you can point to probably throughout your career and throughout your life that you can point to the community. And it's because of that, you mentioned lawyer rebel, and I was just thinking to myself, she was a graduate of the University of Wisconsin Madison, go badgers. And she, she was someone that I could reach out to she's a part of the diversity and math education group. And I was thinking about writing career get grant that didn't go through, but the thinking was good to go through it. And she was someone that read my draft, and talk to me on the phone and was a mentor to me and I didn't really ever have a relationship with her outside of just we both went to University Wisconsin, we didn't overlap at time at all, and just thinking about that the community that she was willing to extend to me and able to then how can I then take that responsibility to extend that to others? I mean, I just really just touched a nerve with me. I'm just glad you highlighted that. 29:30 Yeah, Laurie is amazing. I'm glad you talked about and I think it extends beyond just the Badgers just just be best Wisconsin. 29:38 Well, I mean, come on. But also, I mean, you know you mentioned and also coaching kids sports too. I mean, that's I always pointed that to as another way within my local community like that people knew me as Kojo. When I go into schools, I hate that schedule and like having to build relationships not only between kids but also between families and circles that might not normally overlap. But that was another place on the on the sidelines be able to, for people to come together. And that's something we're missing right now. And so yeah, yeah. Before you wrap up, I mean, I know you're going to have an outstanding website for your your new grant where you're going to share some stuff I'm assuming, but anything else to, to promote, 30:17 I made this web series about a year and a half ago called radical cram school. It's mainly about Asian American children, having difficult conversations, it started with my daughter coming home one day saying that, hey, sometimes I feel like I don't want to be Chinese. And me realizing, you know, the pressure of fitting in the hurt of not always standing out, it's real. And so as opposed to just like having conversation again, where she has to listen to me talk about the history of Asian Americans in the United States. I said, let's let's talk as a group with maybe other friends. And that led to this web series called radical Graham school in which we brought in Christina Wang, who's this amazing performance artist, we brought in puppets songwriters, to make a series of short videos, that not just Asian American parents, but our you know, our parents who want to have these sometimes difficult conversations about race and justice in the United States can just watch an episode and then talk about so we've made two seasons of each season about six episodes each. And we have a discussion guide, a user guide that just came out this week. And I tried very hard to make sure the discussion got you know, it's a work in progress is also connected to the current Black Lives Matter demonstrations that are happening right now. So that we can really play particularly for Asian American children, to really have a space to understand how deeply connected the fight for Black Lives is to Asian American lives here in the United States. So that's something that I've been really proud of. And it's been It was fun to do. And it's actually completely unconnected to my research. Yeah. 31:50 And Teddy, I'll say I stumbled across radical cram school and really liked it and had no idea that you were involved with that. So that just is super awesome. 31:59 Oh, cool. Thanks, Jesse. 32:00 Yeah, 32:01 I'm excited to go check it out. Like that's great. 32:03 Yes, it's fun. I hate to say this, right. But like, I feel like what we do like making videos and making stuff for kids is so fun. I kind of wish that our field would stop writing these articles. let's just, let's just go make stuff and have 32:19 nice, yeah. Beautiful. I wonder if like, there's some ideas out there that, you know, people have, like, you know, of all the different folks that we've talked to, or you know, other folks out there that, that you've shared this and like they have like, wow, he's wanting to do that. And so this is encouragement, go do that. Go do go make some stuff. That's That's awesome. Anything else from Eva or dusty that we should address with Teddy before we let them go? Thank 32:42 you, Teddy. Yeah, thanks 32:43 so much, Teddy. It's been a delight talking with you. 32:46 Yeah. Thanks, Eva. Thanks. Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Teddy. 32:49 And thanks again for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, we hope that you were able to implement something that you just heard and take an opportunity to interact with each other. build that community with other math teacher educators. Hello, listeners of the tg math teaching podcast we have some big news. Are you ready? The teaching math teaching podcast is starting a summer book club. What better way to grow as teachers and math teachers and to engage in some professional learning together and we would love for you to join us. In June we're going to be reading rough draft math revising to learn by Amanda Jansen. In July, we are reading high school mathematics lessons to explore, understand and respond to social injustice by Robert berry bazel Conway, Brian Lawler john Staley and colleagues. The plan for the book club is to read the book throughout the month and host weekly interactions on Twitter and Instagram around the chapters for the week. At the end of each month, we will have a podcast that discusses what we learned from the book and how we can apply what we learned to improving how we teach math teachers. We also might be joined by some authors. In short, we're excited we hope you are as well. Follow us on social media at teach math teach on Twitter and at teaching math teaching on Instagram to stay up to date on how to participate in the teaching math teaching summer book club. Thanks again. As always, for listening to the teaching and teaching podcast, be sure to subscribe to the podcasts, follow us on Instagram and Twitter. And we hope that you're able to implement something that you hear in the podcast and take an opportunity like this summer book club to interact with other math teacher educators.