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Hello and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. The hosts are Eva fan Heiser dusty Jones and I am Joel Amidon. Today we are talking with Nero Shah, who is an assistant professor at the University of Washington and Daniel Reinhold, who is an assistant professor at San Diego State University. We were talking to Daniel Nero, because they are teachers of math teachers who have created a customizable observation tool for tracking patterns and student participation called equip with the intent being to empower teachers in building more equitable classrooms. We want to talk to them about their background in teaching math teachers, and how equip helps them and can help others like you, the listener, do it better. Welcome, Nero. And Daniel, do you want to take a minute to each introduce yourself? First, thank you all for having us really appreciate being on the podcast. My name is Nero Shah. I'm an assistant professor in learning sciences and Human Development at the University of Washington, and I've been a former high school math teacher have been a math education for a couple of decades, and also preparing math teachers for a while too. So I'm excited to share what I've learned about that. Hey, and this is Dan here. Thank you so much for having us. We're excited to chat today. So my background is in math and engineering and sort of all around stem. And that led me to be an assistant professor now in mathematics education, at San Diego State University doing work both around equity, which we're going to talk today, and also institutional transformation and higher education. I've had some discussions with the two of you about equip and about this tool that we've talked about in the introduction. But I'm just curious, you wanna give a little background? And how did equip come to be? Yeah, I can, I can start with that data you can jump in. So I think origin stories are always complex.

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Ours is also a complex origin story. But I think one thread of it that's really important is when I was in graduate school, I was working on my dissertation, I was really interested in and I still am, and in how racism is operating at a classroom interactional level in STEM spaces. And so I spent a lot of time observing math classrooms, interviewing students, about their experiences, specifically, the racialized experiences in math classrooms. And one of the things that students really were clear on is all of the subtle ways that for them, race is playing out moment to moment in classrooms. And one of the specific things that I found was that their reading race into different kinds of interactions that teachers might not be aware of, right? So for example, one of the things that many students talked about was participation patterns and class discussions. And there were saying, well, the teacher is only calling on Asian and white students, they don't call on non Asian kids of color. Right. And those are things that I think many teachers are aware of. And it's kind of stuck in my mind. Right. And so coming off that research, you know, that kind of led to some conversations with Dan, into, well, is there a way we can support teachers in kind of systematizing their awareness of those kinds of patterns. And that in part was led to the creation of equip? Yeah, and I'll give a little bit more background. So I think one of the key things to understanding equip is also just understanding neural and I sort of how our relationship developed over the years, we've met way back in grad school. And you know, I think we had conversations over many years traveling to conferences, going out to dinners and just asking the big questions about how do we really impact schools? How do we support teachers, and I think it comes down and making the lives of kids and schools better. And so, you know, as we were having those conversations, I think, Eclipse started to emerge as an idea of something really concrete that we could do, where we could actually help support teachers help support a change to practice in a way that would have a tangible impact on students. That's really cool. I mean, just shameless plug. We're sponsored by mte. And, but just having that that conference environment where you have these interactions with each other, and then, you know, a common goal for what you want to do with the role that you're in, and you think about, okay, now, how can we develop something and then something like equip comes out? That's kind of a cool thing. Yeah, it was definitely AMT. That was the conference we were having. Yes. But that's only AMT, every other conference that we didn't talk. Excellent. Thank you, Daniel.

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So maybe a little bit more on some listeners, they might have some experience with equip. And I know I've seen it and used it and but maybe a little bit into the experience of actually using equip what is equip offer, and how might you imagine listeners of the podcast using equip if they've never seen it before? Sure. Okay. So in this case, there's, I mean, I think a little bit of background. So really, what equip is, is an observation tool that helps us understand who participates in the classroom, how they get to participate, what a teacher might do to support that participation, and then we can look at both the level of individual students

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When we add demographic information for students, we can look at broader patterns based on maybe gender, or race or disability. So a clip allows us to answer questions like, what is happening for the girls in my classroom? How many questions Am I asking them? Or if I think about Latino students, do I have wait time when I'm asking questions or you know, things like that. So we can actually get really targeted about different students rather than sort of this equity for all kind of mindset, which I think is a little bit harder for teachers to be actionable with. And so when we think about that, there's actually a lot of different ways. And I can speak to three ways that we've used it in particular, that I think others could use it. And the first two ways relate to professional development, either with pre service teachers, or within service teachers, right. So when we give real data to teachers about their classrooms, it helps them see things in a different way. I think it gives an anchor for equity conversations that are otherwise sometimes feel very abstract. And instead, we can say, here's what's going on for your students in your classroom. What might you change in your teaching practice, that could change those patterns. And we feel that it's a very different type of conversation, when we actually have the data to support that. Briefly, the third way I think folks on this podcast might be interested, would just be in their own research, I'm sure there's a lot of researchers out there also listening in. And so equip is a tool that helps us gain data that we can use along with other data sources, maybe qualitative, to just get a deeper picture of what's happening in our classrooms. Dan, Can I follow up with some questions? If I were to use equip with the teacher in a classroom? Would it be enough to go in one day for a lesson? Or what do you guys usually do? That's a really nice question. It's still an open empirical question. But I would say, my emerging understanding and what we're thinking and what we're finding on both of our projects together, is that building those relationships, having that ongoing back and forth, can we observe maybe two times or maybe three times, that way folks can actually try to change their practice, and see those changes. But if one conversation is all that we can have, that's still better than nothing? Yeah. And just to build on that, we've seen teachers use it, use equip in a few different kinds of ways. I mean, sometimes you have teachers, who they basically do everything themselves, right. So they just they know the tool is free, right? equip is a free web app equipped dot Ninja, they just go to the website, they set up their whole classroom roster, they in their classroom, they set up a video camera, and they just videotape themselves. And then after that, they go in and code their data and equip and then analyze the participation patterns in within equipment do everything themselves. And so sometimes they do it, you know, one, sometimes they'll do it multiple times. And so that's kind of one way people have used it. Another way is that they'll have a colleague, and I think this is some of the relationship building also that Dan is getting, it's so important that they'll form little teacher communities. And they'll observe each other's classrooms, and they'll sometimes even code each other's videos. And so there's all these kind of different ways people use it. But I think that what we see the most success with, is when people do it together, right? Because one of the things that teachers have told us so far, is that trying to interrogate your own biases can be really lonely kind of work, right? It can be really stressful and anxiety producing kind of work. But if you can find people at your school, or coaches that are that come from the district, for example, and kind of work with you and other other people who are invested in your improvement as a practitioner, and you can form those kind of trusting relationships, it kind of gives teachers who are using equip, have a better chance to have sounding boards and to improve their practice slowly over time. So that sounds fantastic. I'm wondering about the technology needed. So you guys said like one video camera is enough to capture class. Yeah, there's a few different technology setups that teachers have use. So sometimes it's like, it's a traditional video camera, they set up on a tripod, and as long as you can see, I mean, the teacher is going to code their own videos, as opposed to someone else coding their videos for them, because maybe they're busy. teachers know this, the voices of their students, so they can even set up a camera, one camera in the back of the room. And then after the lesson is done later that day, or later that week, they can take the video off their laptop, and then also have a quick open and basically just watch the video, pause it, and then code the participation they just saw. Start the video again. Watch it pause it. So teachers kind of do that's one way to do it. Some teachers have actually just used an iPad, they set up the iPad at the front of the room and there's little cheap little cameras you can plug in and buy and they get the video that way. And then sometimes they don't use video at all if you have a friendly colleague sitting in the back of the room with equipped open on the laptop. Sometimes that coach if they get some practice, they can just code in real time too and they don't even use videos.

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And I'm wondering, you know, now that a lot of classrooms are virtual online, have you heard anything? Are people doing this with the? Are we wondering about the participation patterns and equitable responses during working and teaching remotely through zoom or Google meats or something like that? Have you heard of that? Yeah, that's a great question. And so actually, my own research team, we've been doing a lot of work, we actually had a learning community going, that moved virtual, during the pandemic in the spring semester. And so some interesting questions about what's happening, when we're online, what's happening when we're face to face. And I feel like across the board, folks recognize it's just a lot more challenging right now, we're facing sort of two global pandemics at the moment. And to do this work amongst that it is challenging in terms of the technology. Fortunately, a lot of the platforms, zoom and other platforms that you're using, make it very easy to record. And so there's actually in some ways a lower barrier to using equip, because now we don't actually have to physically be in the classroom, a teacher can literally just click record, have that upload it to a coder, and kind of get feedback in that way. Shout out to Joel, I think has also been doing some interesting work in this virtual space as well. Talk about that. Yeah, we just been I with a colleague, wise Mandarin at Delta State have been thinking about it with regards to like virtual field experiences, and working with something like immersion and seeing like, Okay, if we have limited space to explore, or to get into field experiences, and do observations and or even students to get in there, how can we see this kind of practice being promoted within these virtual spaces? So we're using a clip for that? So it's interesting stuff? I mean, that kind of leads me to this question. It seems like this is evolving, right? What equip can be used for, and you've put something out into the world and are studying it yourselves, but also, like, wonder how other people are using it. So where are the two of you currently at in your evolving understanding of how to use equip? Like, what do you kind of like, what's the cutting edge for each of you? Yeah, so what I think Dan maybe alluded to this a little bit earlier. But one thing that's becoming clear to us is that the data that equip generate are a gateway into a much larger array of conversations about equity. And so on the one hand, you know, I think maybe when we couple years ago, when we first created early versions of a tool, I think our original idea was that, well, this can be sort of a formative feedback mechanism. And teachers are getting this data, right, who's participating and how, and it's broken down by social markers that they can customize. Right, they can see whether students with IEP s aren't getting the same opportunities, for example, and so on. And then they can kind of course, correct their instruction, right. And so we're still seeing teachers use it that way. But when we interact with teachers about the data, when we debrief with them, and how to help them make sense of what the data mean, what we're seeing is that this is leading to conversations that we didn't anticipate. So for example, one teach one middle school math teacher that better realize Minaya Michigan State I work with, she found a pattern and acquit over a couple months of using the tool across, you know, maybe six to eight observations that showed that she basically wasn't calling on left Teaneck students at all, she had four Latino students in her class. But black students in general and black girls in particular, were over represented in terms of relative to their demographic representation in the class in class discussions, right? So there was some good and some bad, right. And so as we started to sort of make sense of these patterns, it led to conversations about her childhood, and how, for example, she was socialized around gender, how she was socialized around race. And that's something that we couldn't quite anticipate. And the other kind of conversation that came up to help her make sense of like, Yeah, why am I not calling on Latina girls for an entire school year? Right, when I know, the data are showing me that it also led to conversations about her understanding of equality versus equity, and how that relates to kind of larger discourses at the school about what is desirable for teachers to be pursuing in class discussions. And so all this to say is that the data are a starting point. And what we're starting to see in some of our research is, how can we sort of design professional development in a way to open spaces for those conversations as well beyond just sort of moment to moment teaching and learning decisions? That's pretty amazing. I mean, like, that wasn't in the the trajectory of the research plan, like yeah, we're gonna dive into the history of people's experiences here versus thinking about what they're doing on a day to day basis in the classroom. Like, it's pretty amazing. That's good stuff. But Daniel, how about you? Same question. Yeah, I was gonna build on that. So I've been lucky. I recently got funded with a couple of grants for that NASA.

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And in particular, in my career grant, I'm exploring some of those very questions that neural is alluding to. And particularly understanding when we give folks data, we know that it's helpful to have more information about the classroom. But sometimes you can get inundated with data or just too much information is too much. And so we want to understand, like, what is actually the most helpful information that could spark those types of conversations, and sort of spark them in a productive way. So that's one component of the grant. And then the other thing I'm trying to understand is what happens when we build those relationships and have conversations over an extended period of time. So to date, you know, in our work, we've worked with teachers for about one year at a time. And that's been the longest that we've done it. And but yes, you know, when you look at the research around professional development, one year time is kind of like, you need to have at least that much, but you might would actually hope for an even longer relationship. So what I'm trying to understand if we work together for 234 years, what happens with those conversations? Where is the depth? And kind of like, what can we aspire towards together? I just I love it as a either the data or even the setup and the use of the tool as conversation starters. Because even like, I remember the first time I used the tool, and I'm going into put in the demographic information for my students, and then I'm thinking like, Wait a second, I'm putting this in, I am putting these information for them. And I even just think like, I need to ask them, How do they identify? Right? How do they identify on these characteristics? Or even just to think like, that's the conversation where it needs to start? And I haven't even put in any data yet. And it's like, those are the sorts of things that I think equipped can prompt you to start thinking about is like, what are we even talking about here? What are these things that like, what is my even understanding of these characteristics, before even thinking about what my teaching moves are? I mean, so even to have like a little group of colleagues or something to engage in some of those conversations is, man, well, that's we're already starting the recording in a good track if we're already starting with those sorts of conversations. Well, Joel, just just to build on what you just said, two quick examples come to mind. One I was meeting with a couple years ago meeting with a school leader in Detroit, who taught at an all black school. And we were talking about what it would look like to support teachers at a school using a quick and it was pretty obvious that at least on focused on race, that traditional racial categories wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. But that led to a conversation about colorism and how you might customize equipped to look at biases related to skin color, which we know in a lot of research literature, we know those biases to exist. A second example, we work with a physics teacher the last couple years in Michigan, who taught at a Catholic school, and in his physics class, and This in itself, right is that of white supremacy and patriarchy. But his physics class was entirely white boys, right? So it's a physics class white boys in a Catholic school. And so we had a conversation, I'll never forget it. And he was saying, well, Nero, what what am I going to use a clip for here? And the question I asked him, which I've been starting to ask more and more teachers we work with, is, well, let's think about what are the hierarchies in your local community? Like what are the narratives guiding different kinds of hierarchies that are local to your specific school and to your specific community. And we started thinking of it that way, he realized that, oh, there's this narrative that's been floating around for years in our community, that non Catholic students are not as competent and ready for academic learning and a subject like physics than Catholic students. And so that's one of the social markers we ended up tracking in equip. And that's not something that Dan and I, when we can see to the tool that we were heading in with, but I think, to your point, that that kind of question, right? It's such a local kind of question. And it's a way to make equity work, local and concrete for teachers that we've been starting to learn through the work. And just thinking about my own context, you know, we're in a small town, Oxford, Mississippi, and just wondering if, if a teacher knows a student has parents that work at the university, right, in some sort of academic capacity? Like, is that a marker right, for something that's a different treatment within a class, you know, so like, these sort of things, and that's what makes Eclipse so cool, is that you can, it can tailor it right and tailor to your context and what what you might want to keep track of. Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the key things that we're realizing is, once we get folks to think about those hierarchies, and kind of reflect on that, a natural follow up question is, okay, so you recognize these sort of imbalances in the environment you're in, but what kind of teaching strategies do you have to address those? right if we know we're in an area

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And environment, and we do nothing about it, we're likely to just perpetuate that inequity. But often we find it's very difficult for folks to articulate what they might do concretely for racial or gender equity in their classes. And I know for myself, certainly, growing up as a white guy, there were so many things I just, I never saw, I just didn't see them when I was growing up. And I'm still, of course learning every single day. And, and really, until I started doing this work, I could have not articulated a single, specific concrete practice for racial equity or something like that, right? I'm gonna do a little pivot. And if something comes back, and we want to talk more about equip, we can but I'm just curious to like, you know, in are we talking about teaching math teachers, that's the name of the podcast, what is the best advice you received, when you started teaching math teachers, it goes back to something that I we talked about earlier, but really about building relationships. And that any teaching and learning process really starts from building trust and vulnerability and strong relationships. And if you can't have that, you're not really going to get anywhere. And so there's this idea that for, you know, whenever you're interacting with someone, for every negative interaction you have, you would need three positive interactions to sort of counter that. And I think that's something that's just really stuck with me, sort of in every sphere of life, from teaching math teachers, to teaching other students who are not math features, and just really thinking about sort of, what does it mean to build those trusting relationships? For me, I want to take up this question from my vantage point as a man of color, and a man of color has been doing race work, specifically within math education. So I remember when I started out if a math teacher educator I, one question I had, and being a math teacher educator in a largely white dominant space, and in a room full of I've taught preparing elementary math teachers, secondary math teachers, but in those spaces in a roomful of 25 students, usually it was about 20 to two, sometimes all 25 white women, and who also had very little sort of understanding of white supremacy, prior to starting college was a really different experience kind of growing up in the places that they grew up. And so for me, some of the advice that I got when a question I had was, well, how do I how do we think about bringing some of my research into the space related to some things I mentioned earlier, which is I think it's very important to understand math education, as a racialized experience, as Danny Martin and others have talked about it. But what does that mean for teacher Ed, especially in that context, and some of the advice I got was, well, you can't shy away from that. Right? So if we're going to get serious in, in math, education about anti racism and countering specific forms of racism, like anti blackness, then we're in teacher education, it's really incumbent upon us to hit those issues head on. The question for me was how to do that, right? Because you're sort of, you're sort of stuck between those commitments, which I think many of us feel, and the fact that you have to meet learners where they are, right, so you have pre service teachers that a lot of those concepts, even just, you know, the idea of race, being a socio political fiction are going to be a new to them, how do you sort of reconcile those things? And I think that those are things I'm still working on. But I think some of the advice that I got was, you can't shy away from that. But I think over the years, what I've learned is to how to how to sort of over time kind of, you know, bring in more complexity to that work with teachers I work with, in a way that doesn't turn them off, but still kind of pushes them from where they are. Okay, so turn that question around. What Bice would you give to someone certain that roll with it so narrow? So would you would you say something towards what you just said about advice you had? Or how would you What advice would you give to someone? Yeah, I mean, it gets complex, like also in a kind of a tenure track context, we know that it's true. I mean, that that's not the context for all teacher educators. But that was part of my experience. But we know I mean, there's plenty of research on course evaluations and out women, people of color, and women of color kind of get viewed by college students, especially around topics like that. So all of that sort of has to, I think, is a practical issue that needs to be taken into consideration. But one thing I found is that I think there are things like talking about bias and implicit bias in the way that equipment can. I think that can be one way to kind of get students into the conversation. But I think if it stops there and you don't talk about we don't name things as racism, you don't name things as as sexism in those terms. I think that's you're not giving full trip to the work, but like one so one concrete resource that might be useful for people listening in the race context is Justin Coles and I as a colleague at Fordham University, we published a paper in the Journal of teacher education earlier this year, and it presents a framework called network called the racial noticing framework and

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It builds on the teacher noticing work that I think many people listening probably are familiar with, but applying it to the noticing of racial phenomenon. And and I think it sort of it's very much in line with some of the principles that Dan and I have stuck to and building equip. But it's that if we're going to have mad teachers, for example, getting serious about doing racial equity work, then you have to try to make that work as concrete as possible. So the racial noticing framework, it lays out a lot of different types of racial phenomena and different levels that teachers can attend to. Some of it is related to the things we've been talking about, like participation patterns. But it also could be racially biased curriculum, it could be how teachers own racialized identities might be playing out with your students, right. So it takes sort of a kind of enumerates. And kind of delineates a few different types of racial phenomena to make that more concrete for teachers, but then also kind of engages them in thinking of less and more anti racist ways that those phenomena can be interpreted when the teacher actually spots them in a classroom, and then ways to respond to those racial moments and patterns of it that they see. So that that's one resource that might be useful that I've been starting to use with, with my teacher, education students. But you, Dan, what advice would you give to someone starting out in your role? Yeah, I think this is advice that that really goes for anyone. And but I think, especially to my white colleagues is sort of really recognizing your own positionality when you enter the classroom, and how that's going to impact your relationships with your students, how that's going to impact what your students take away from your courses, and all of those things, because I think for many of us, as we sort of move into this new role as a faculty member, or teaching other teachers, this is kind of a big shift. And I know, for me, it was a little bit more responsibility, and kind of power than I had in the past. And I recognized, I really need to do right by my teachers. And I really need to think what I want them to get out of this experience. And I don't think it's possible to really be mindful of those questions without recognizing where I'm coming from. And so a more concrete example, I was recently teaching history of math class at San Diego State, in so it's not exclusively future teachers that are in that course. But there are many future teachers who take that course. And so there's usually kind of a standard thing where folks learn about Greek mathematics, and then learn about how things became more rigorous and limits and all these other ideas were developed. And I decided to sort of flip that on its head and Instead, focus on the ways that race and gender get constructed through the way that we teach them that history, particularly in favor of white supremacy, and sort of toxic masculinity. And so now, this was an ambitious thing to do with this course. So I was very nervous. And I especially had to recognize, here I am at an institution as a white male, teaching primarily students of color. I'm at SDSU. And so what does that mean, in terms of sort of the racial and gender hierarchies and power dynamics, especially when we're going to bring that into the classroom and address some of these really tough topics? Now, of course, I didn't find the answer. I don't I don't have the answer to how do you do that in the most responsible and sort of thoughtful way. But I think it's impossible to do it in a thoughtful way. Unless we sort of first start from deeply understanding our own positioning, and how we bring that into the classroom. And I think actually being very transparent with our students in the way that we are all positioned, either in that space, or how teachers are going to be positioned when they're working with future students. Dan, just to follow up on what you just said, a year or two ago, I taught a history of math class. This is for prospective middle grades, math teachers. So instead of talking about limits, and those types of things, we talked more about numeration systems and the origin of fractions and things like that. But in doing so, one day, I looked around the room, and there was I was the only white person in the room. And I thought, this is really interesting. And then I realized that that it had been that way for the whole semester. And I had not noticed it. And I thought that's when I really started thinking I need to, I didn't have the same language that you just use, but I needed to kind of recognize my positionality in the classroom. And I'm up for teaching that class again in the spring. It just so happened that I was the only white person in the room at that point in time. But it really makes me think about how we can structure these things, particularly about how math history is taught, and how mathematics is taught and bringing race as a part of the discussion instead of as a white guy not noticing it when I was growing up and only having conversations with friends who are people of color and

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Realizing Oh, wow, that's what it was like for you in seventh grade. Okay, I didn't pay attention to that. I didn't even recognize that. So thanks for that network. Yeah, Jesse, thanks for sharing that. And I mean, I think the thing that's, to me is important to remember is like, there's nothing wrong with the fact Well, maybe there's something wrong, but not with us about that we may have grown up a certain way. But I think now that we're in a different position, it's not an excuse to not recognize that now, right? And it doesn't mean that we have the answers. But now you have that awareness, I have that awareness. Others are building that awareness. And I think that gives us an opportunity, as a community of math teacher educators, to ask ourselves like, what are we going to do? How are we going to address these historical legacies? And what does that mean looking for the future of our field? So I want to follow up with a large question and a small question for you, Dan, the large question is, I would like to, for you to publish this course that you develop, so other people can use it. If you could do that within the next two weeks, that'd be great. Just kidding, of course. But I was wondering if not kidding about the publishing kidding about the timeline. But I was wondering, you gave a workshop this summer that I attended. And I learned from you about developing an identity slide. And putting that into my classes. And I have done that. And it has been fantastic. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, where that came from? And what that is, so people could kind of maybe take that on if they are interested. Yeah, thanks. So I'll answer the easier question first, I actually am trying to publish about that course. So I have a paper right now, that hopefully will come out. And that paper is examining sort of the role of these kind of innate intelligence narratives around race. And so I mean, I definitely have benefited so much from my conversations with neural and, and he really inspired a lot of the work that I did there. But understanding it could be racial narratives about students of Asian ancestry, it could be sort of these white masculine narratives we see in math. And so understanding when we can challenge those narratives, in the context of history of math, what does that do for students? What does that do for them, and how they sort of supporting them to more authentically tell their own stories. And so I'm very excited about that paper and in sharing some of the amazing stories of students in that class. Hopefully, reviewers will feel the same way we shall see. And to the other question, the identity slide, honestly, I'm going to have to give a shout out to my partner suparna around this one, for probably repeatedly pushing me say like, Dan, you just need to like own the fact that you are a white guy in these spaces, and what that does in those spaces. And probably she told me this for too many years before I finally listen to her. And I think for me more recently, what has happened, especially with the COVID pandemic, is also recognizing some of the disability aspects of my identity and really understanding the challenges that I faced over the years because of that. And rather than sort of hiding that being, that's something that I should share with students, because I know, we have lots of disabled students that are also going through college. And there's a lot of stigma, and it's not something that we really talk about. And so I realized that in opening myself up, it created more space for my students to be open as well. That's what I had. So, Ava, thanks for this question. I think that i think one thing that Dan does a good job of is when he talks about his whiteness, and his participation in masculinity and other other kinds of social markers and how he comes out the world. I one thing I appreciate is that he doesn't do it in in sort of just a purely confessional kind of way, or sort of like a disclaimer type of way, which is to say, you know, and sometimes I think you're seeing this a lot in, in published research more and more, which is that you have a sort of a short section that says, Well, I have all these identity, they recognize that I have privileges. And now let's get on to whatever I was talking about. And I think that if you're a math teacher, I think it's one thing to say, Look, I'm you know, a cisgender hetero white man, right, but it's another thing to say, identifying those ways. And here's how I think they matter for when I'm teaching a lesson on factoring polynomials, right, or matters for how I'm structuring group work, right. And that kind of thought process beyond just sort of acknowledging the identities. I think that's really the next step for a lot of teachers, teacher, educators, supporting new teachers, also researchers to kind of move towards like there's so much to process. Thank you for sharing Eva, you're gonna say some, yeah, I just also want to point out that neural as you were talking about just noticing paper, I downloaded it and looks amazing. So

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is wondering if you want to take, say just a few words about the contribution of that paper so that if people are interested, they could go and find it. We're gonna put a link in the class notes for the show class notes, the show notes. Yeah.

35:16  
Yeah, no, thanks. Yeah, I think that sort of the broad framing of that is the paper itself. I mean, it was from it's based on work that we did with elementary math teachers that I was engaged in preparing. And it takes it's a comparative case study, looking at three of the pre service teachers to white, one black, all women. And the free we took was, you know, I think if you look at the history of race, focus, Teacher Education over the last 20 plus years, in general, even outside math, education, so much of it has documented amazing efforts to kind of move the needle on racial consciousness, mainly amongst white teachers. And so it's sort of couched within the frame of whiteness studies. And I think one big finding there is that a lot of what we tried to do in teacher education, or the last two decades to raise kind of racial consciousness, or however you want to frame that hasn't really worked, because it's really hard, right, especially within the context of a short timeframe, maybe a semester long course, or just, you know, even a year long program. And so the tack we took in this paper was to say, well, could we come at this a different way, rather than trying to change hearts and minds? Could we focus on practice, and what's happening kind of rooted in the everyday work of teaching and learning and start there as a way of opening those conversations about some of the things that we've talked about with equip that we're starting to see, you know, issues about? What is my positionality, within any kind of racialized space, what has been my history, getting socialized into thinking about race in a certain way. And so our approach has basically been to start with practice, and to get people to notice how race is functioning at the moment to moment level, and then to lead into those kinds of conversations after that. All right, we've had a good long discussion, but I still do want to address some of these final questions. So I'm going to make it a multiple choice, you can address any of the three questions and give you the one that pops out to you the most. And you can each address a different question if you want. So, Option A, what makes a good day for you? And give a specific example? option B? Where do you go online to find resources? Or option C? What do you do for fun? And how do you balance things out? So how about Daniel, you want to take a shot at one of those? Sure. I'm gonna take option A the good day. And Jesse, I think just acknowledging for folks out there, academia can be tough sometimes, right. And I feel like we have to get used to facing a lot of rejection. And so sometimes you need some good news to balance out that bad news. And I think for me would be those moments when seeing someone has a real breakthrough. So I want to share my story of a teacher that I was working with, around the equip work. And I would just say this was in a learning community context. And the first meeting we had, they were, they were a little skeptical, right, I think it takes a great deal of vulnerability and courage for us to open up our classroom to somebody else. If we're talking about racial and gender biases and inequities that makes it even, it makes it even harder. And so I think it's very easy in this colleague kind of like explained, no, this is why that's happening, this is going on, this is on, and so on, right, we can kind of explain things away. And it wasn't until about five or six months later that we were in a meeting together. And they shared that they had gone through this process and talk about some of the things that they learned is of their own insights and sort of just challenging their own ways of thinking that I was just floored. And I was so proud of them for, like really doing that tough work. And I feel like I was just there to kind of give the context. And then they chose to do the hard work, right? No one can do it can't do it for someone else's that just really was touching to me. And I was like, oh, it is worth it. Okay, I don't care that three papers just got rejected, like, this makes a difference. Yeah, that's awesome. And you think like, what's it what that impact is going to mean going forward for that teacher in that space and like, and what they're gonna, how they're gonna keep thinking about their practice. That's awesome. Exactly. I'm gonna take I think door number three, which is what do you do for fun, however, yells things out. I mean, especially right now, I think, at least in Seattle, where I've got I've got two young children and so whether they can be in school, and what that looks like, is a major issue for my family right now. So the idea of balance is a I forgot what that word means. But, but something, something that just just always gives me a lot of joys. So I'm a sports fan any day, the Cubs, the Chicago Cubs, which is my baseball team from childhood any day that can pull out a win. That's a good day. And also any day when I can get out on the tennis court. I'm a tennis player. And any day I can be out there. It's a good day.

40:01  
And then one more thing is a note clip is out there, we're gonna put a link to that in the show notes. And we're, you know, we've mentioned that article that you had narrow that we're gonna put it in anything else to promote. I mean, there's a couple other articles will give you like some other stuff we publish on it. But really, I mean, I would just say thank you to you all for having us. And also just so much kind of love and appreciation and respect for teachers and teacher educators, especially right now, I feel like this is already a very difficult job. And given the current circumstances, it's just kind of impossible. And so just feeling you all in a lot of appreciation. Yeah, a big thank you to everyone listening. And thank you to our hosts for having us really appreciate you all. I feel like this kind of work is so needed in the field. And it's glad to see more of it. And I hope it gets the recognition that it deserves. Well, we mentioned at the top, were talking about the conversations that are had I know I've had plenty of conversations, I know how generous you both are with your time. We appreciate your time here on the podcast and just and then also just appreciation for all you out there that are listening to this episode of the teaching math teaching podcast Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and we hope that you're able to implement something that you just heard, maybe check out a clip for yourself and then take an opportunity to interact with other math teacher educators. Just one more thing before we close out the 2021 AMT annual conference will take place virtually this year with synchronous presentations and asynchronous poster sessions, please say February 11 through the 13th and February 18 through the 20th for the 2021 virtual AMT annual conference. If you've never attended before, this just might be your opportunity to do so the meeting will feature shorter days and we would normally program for an in person convening, with schedules designed to accommodate multiple time zones. For more information, check out the AMT website at AMT IE dotnet