0:00 Hello and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. The hosts are a with Anheuser me dusty Jones, and Joel Amidon. Today we're talking with Babbitt Behnken. Babette is the Richard D. Green professor of mathematics education in the Department of Mathematics and Statistics, and the Director of Graduate Studies in the College of Natural Sciences and Mathematics at California State University Long Beach. We are talking with her today for a number of reasons, including her role in a mte as the vice president of publications. Welcome back. Ben, can you tell us a bit about yourself and your background? Sure. Currently, as you said, I'm faculty at Cal State Long Beach. And I also have a 50% sort of unofficial Associate Dean role for graduate studies within my College of Sciences and math. And I've been there since 2006. So quite a while, gosh, my background Well, I knew what I wanted to be at age five. And I know that's not common. My mom tells me that literally at age five, I said, I want to be a math professor. I've always been the teacher, I've always enjoyed mathematics. So it was natural. I wanted to teach math. I stayed that course pretty much through undergrad, I went to Occidental College here in the LA area, and majored in mathematics and went straight from there to a pure math PhD program at Tufts over on the east coast. I did that for two years. And then all of a sudden had this, like enlightened moment where I thought, gosh, you know, whoever uses all of this stuff that we're doing, and I hope and then I'll never forget, my advisor was also the department chair, and I went into him, Richard Weiss, who was another German as well. And so sometimes I get to practice my German. And I said, When, when do people ever use these proofs that we're working on? And he kind of leaned back and said, Oh, 2:06 I have no idea. I think theoretical physicists do at some point. And so the pragmatic part of my personality thought, gosh, that's just not enough. So I'm a BD with the equivalent of a master's in pure math, and I decided to go teach k 12. For five years, I got the teaching, I was teaching at Tufts, and really just wanted to focus on teaching. So I taught Middle School in high school for five years, and then had another one of those enlightened moments where I had done a lot of training of teachers at our site with new math teachers. And I just knew I wanted to work with teacher education and went back for my PhD in math education at University of Michigan. Go Blue. It got in there. So yeah, and a little known fact about me, some people do know this is that I grew up also a dancer. And so at one point, I did contemplate dance as a career, but I've always kept it as kind of a passionate hobby. Cool, what is the best advice you received when you started teaching mathematics teachers? Well, that would have been I mean, I did support new teachers when I was in K 12. But more formally, I did it in a while I was at University of Michigan as a doctoral student, and my doctoral advisor at thesis advisors, Kip Wilson, I ended up teaching with him and his math methods for a number of years, and then took it over myself when he left Michigan, but he gave me two great bits of advice that I'll share. One was he said, you know, really pull from your experience and show them the passion that you have for what you do. He knew I was straight out of K 12, at that point, and really came from a place of practice and passion for teaching kids. So he said, you know, use that and express it and let them see that because that's infectious. He also said, you know, at that point, when students are in methods, they really want the magic recipe book, you know, they want, they want to know exactly what to do in all cases. And we all know, we can't do that for them. So he said, don't try, he said, but rather just have them go through great experiences with the content, and help them to see how they can help k 12 students experience content in that same rich way. And so that's really where I came from as a start for my practice in Michigan. And then later on, you got involved in a mte. And since we've here to talk with some with you some about your role in AMT. How did you get involved in leadership positions at AMT? Well, I threw my name in the hat early on, in I want to say the early aughts. I served on a local arrangements committee at one of the early conferences in Irvine because at that point, 5:00 point, I had come back home to California in oh six and got more involved with the organization and then not too many years after filled out, you know the volunteer form and really wanted to get involved with connections. And at that point I was doing editing work and really enjoyed research and served on the panel for a full term of three years. And at that point, and Trina Wilkerson event editor and the president at the time and executive director and approached me and said, We really love it if you would apply for the role of editor. So actually, their encouragement is what got me excited about taking on that next level of leadership. And I did submit an application. And I ended up serving two terms, I enjoyed it so much. And that's kind of how I led to my current position as Vice President for publications, they recruited me straight out of serving as editor. So I am now in my third year in that role, and I've served in a similar role for the organization and CSM. So I knew when I stepped up for BP that I was going to enjoy it, I really like helping share knowledge, and also to help authors publish a new passion of mine. That's great. So if someone was wanting to get started in a leadership role, what advice would you give them? First thing would be, you know, pursue leadership roles for things about which do have passion, because I think it bleeds through your ability to be a good leader, if it's something you really genuinely enjoy and are excited about. Beyond that, I would say what I've learned along the way is that collaborative work usually results in better results, it's sometimes much easier to just want to do it yourself, because it's quicker. I was the queen of that for a long time. But when you bring more people to the table and have really important and needed dialogue, I think the the output is much richer. And part of that is being a really good listener. I would say the other big bit of advice that I didn't understand right away, but I learned later through a leadership program I experienced on here at Cal State Long Beach, is that the distinction between being a leader and being a manager, and a leader really helps you to develop vision and process change. Whereas and be kind of a forward thinker, more as a manager works on systems and processes and getting things done. And since I knew we were going to talk about leadership, I remembered a quote, and I couldn't remember if I if I had it just right. So I actually looked it up this morning, because it was sitting meant so much to me when I heard it by somebody named john Kotter, who does a lot with big business leadership. And it's that management is about coping with complexity. Leadership, by contrast, is about coping with change. And that really has served me well in my both my roles and AMT, and my roles in my institution, kind of seeing that play out right now. Right with the current the education and across the country or across the world. And about all the change that is happening, you see some highlights of leadership and how folks are handling it or not handling it, right? Oh, hundred goodness, fat, I mean, talk about not the time to be president of her city. Gosh, in fact, I went all this hit the fan in early March, because of my leadership role is with graduate studies, I was privy to early conversations before anything was made public. And you know, some of these meetings were really intense. And we were really having to forge new territory and set goals for areas that we didn't know where we were headed. Yeah. And I remember at one point, sending an email to my president and just saying, you know, thank you for for serving right now and for being in this role, and we see you and we know you're doing all you can do and just don't sweat the small stuff, because it's a lot of pressure. And it still is it's going to be for many months now. No, absolutely. I'd like to if I can, I would like to encourage any listeners to really consider leadership roles right now. Especially in AMT. In my division of publications, for example, we have a lot of opportunities and we are looking for new people to volunteer. We have you know, the mathematics teacher educator journal, we have the sight math, which is focused on technology and teacher education journal. We also have connections which is officially a publication I mean, it has part of it as newsletter, meaning it has the organization, letting members know about things happening within the organization and opportunities but it's also a 10:00 A chance to publish, we have a blind peer review process. And so each issue with quarterly, you might see, you know, anywhere from two to four externally submitted articles where their brief, you know, two to six pages, but it gives them an opportunity to share takeaways, best practices, or about resources, and even early research projects that they're working on. We also have a new book out a new volume for our professional book series. And on the site, you'll see a proposal form. So you can also propose a book that AMT would help you to put together edit and publish lots of opportunities at amtd. This is reminding me that when we were at the last AMT II conference, someone said something during one of the large talks and I thought, Oh, I need to and I was sitting next to Fran Arbonne, I leaned over and I said, Hey, why don't I propose a book? And you can edit it? And she said, Yeah, let's do that. And so guess what I think I had planned in late March to work on that. And 11:12 under my late, dusty, it's not too late. That's right. Yeah. So now I'll put it on a note to myself, and hopefully not listen to this a year from now and say, Oh, yeah, well, I never did that. Sorry, Fran. Oh, I have to well, Eva knows this. I am the queen of you. I'm very old school to send my side jot down notes on my little paper and pen. And so right now, it's good thing that our listeners can't also see me because you can see my scary at home office with my desktop with post. Its all over it. 11:46 Don't forget to do so I yeah, it's Yeah. And don't forget that post it dusty because we want to see a proposal from you. Yeah, it's, it's somewhere. I'll look. 12:02 So if somebody is newer to AMT, and doesn't really know the workings yet, how do I go about figuring out how and where I can volunteer and get involved? Oh, great question. You know, if you go to the main AMT website, the AMT dotnet, if you go on to membership, there is a volunteer form. And we do look at that, in fact, we have a board retreat coming up the end of this week, and a big part of our October meeting is looking at all the people who volunteered via this online form. And we, you know, look at their experience and what they'd like to do, and we pull from that. So please, and if you're not sure what some of the opportunities are, meaning the specifics of the commitment, and the, you know, maybe the workings and the goal for the various committees and positions, just reach out to the Vice President for that division. On the website, it also breaks down all of the division leadership. So either reached out to the chair of the actual committee, or the Vice President for that division, any of us and we can, you know, guide you to where it might fit your interests. I bet. Is there a Is there a better time to volunteer during the year? Or is it rolling, it is rolling dusty, but we do set committees, so committees, some appointments are annual if you're a committee member. And when leadership turns over right after our annual meeting in February, which is typically February, at the business meeting, which is usually has always been the last day of the conference. That's officially when members that have served that year, exit and new membership comes on for committees and so forth Task Force. And so a good time to volunteer is spring because in October, as I mentioned is when we come together as a board and make decisions for people to serve, we then reached out before the holidays, the fall break, and we invite people to serve and get commitments so that after the conference in the spring, they can then transition to those positions. So I would say you know spring or summer is a great time to throw your name in the hat such a great way to make connections across the cross the organization to I mean, just meeting people like I mean, dusty and I we've never talked until we were in the same leadership group together and thinking about all the conversations we've had about advancing math teacher education that have sprung up from just being involved in that in the organization. So I mean, yeah, another ringing endorsement for getting involved in your in AMT somehow. Yeah, definitely. 15:00 Oh, absolutely, I think it it's a way to expand your circle of people who do are passionate about the same things and do similar work that you can then reach out to for your your work. And not just, you know, see once a year at a conference. So I agree with you. It's a great way to make connections and build collegial friendships. I have a question that I'd like to pop in here. Sure, my bet. So the teaching and teaching podcast has been started since basically February. So and we've had, I think, similar goals to like, what kind of fires you up about what you're doing with an AMT, and now with ncsm, with editing and sharing knowledge and things? So what advice would you have for the teaching math teacher podcast and us as as co hosts of it to advance this work? Because I think we're having fun doing it, but then also to think like, how can we make it better? Oh, that's a great question. I think there's a number of things, I think, getting involved. I started early on, you know, serving as a reviewer for different organizations, and then, you know, editing for books and publishers, serving on editorial panels for different kinds of publications. I think that's really how you can learn more about current research and what people are thinking about and doing. And then to take it to the next level, I think, you know, trying to pursue opportunities like you're doing to talk to people and spread the word, but also, you know, throw your name in the hat for a leadership position. What's really exciting for me is that part of this role as Vice President for publications, is that I get to support people who want to publish, and also people who want to put together a book, like dusty, right, and mica, like, 16:51 the most recent volume in the professional book series was about the math teacher and partnership mtef. And it was so great, because I got to help them craft the final proposal to kind of give them some insight as to how their work fits into a greater body of work with math teacher, Ed and the organization. And then as volumes came in from the various authors, I got to help them edit and revise and, you know, keep a coherence. You know, I would the four primary editors, were like a team who got to keep the vision for the book, and make sure that everything was coherent and fit together in a way that would help people learn. That stuff's really exciting. And I feel like in this organization, there's a lot of opportunity to do that. But there is another organizations as well. And I think, talking to people, and if you see somebody who does something that you see yourself doing, ask them, What position do you have? How did you get involved in that? What experiences Did you have prior that you felt made you prepared for that position? I remember doing that actually, with my, who became my thesis advisor in my doctoral program, I say, a doctoral program, I saw that he was teaching math methods. And I thought, gosh, that's something I did it my old k 12 sign I really could see myself doing so I just went up to him. I said, Hey, is there any chance I could help you teach that class? I would really love to do that. He said, Sure. How about next semester. And so that became then my principal ta assignment. And it's it is something that I did for many, many years. So I think if what I've learned in this world, if you don't ask you don't get and asking helps you to learn and help other people to see that you want to do that. And then they're there to be your mentors. So what I'm hearing is if somebody wants to host a podcast, talk to us, where we can work you in? Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. That's great. And if we're gonna get better, Dustin needs to publish a book, right. 19:02 Nikki, that I'm writing that's going up on my desktop to check in with dusty in about two weeks. No pressure, no pressure. 19:11 How long? Can I use the COVID? Excuse? 19:14 Probably a long time. Yeah. I'm not gonna let you use. Yeah, no, I need I need to follow up on that. I'm glad that jogged my memory. And actually, Fran was president at the time that I became editor of connections, and she was one of the people who reached out and encouraged me to apply. Cool. So I bet what makes a good day at work in your profession. Can you give us a specific example of a of a good day? Absolutely. For me, you know, 50% of my job right now is administration and so 50% I support grad advisors, but part of my role in that is also working one on one with students. Usually if I work with them, they're struggling somehow it took me 20:00 to click their programs, with my other 50%, part of that is still teaching in our graduate program and working with our math education, graduate students. And I would say with both hats, the days that, you know, make me smile and remind me of why I'm in this, especially in times right now, with lots of management stuff, as I mentioned earlier, is when I see students succeed. And when I have former students who come back and say, Hey, you know, I'm using everything I learned in the graduate program, thank you so much. And especially when that leads to I want to do more, because that means they're really embracing what they're doing, and they're ready for leadership. And so actually, I have a number of former master's students who now are full time lecturers for us. And some who are part time lecturers who teach them the department is still our full time in K 12. Because they just really want to now help prepare teachers and teach content to the major and it's really exciting. It's kind of like a, you get to be old enough. And in this career, it's kind of a full circle. Right? So now my former students are my colleagues. In fact, one of my former students who was in the master's program, and I taught her for a couple classes, she worked on some new research projects, ended up pursuing a doctoral, a PhD in math Ed at my former institution. And so she was actually went through my former doctoral program and is now a professor and at a CSU campus, she's now at Cal Poly Pomona. So talk about full circle, and she's teaching graduate students. 21:44 That's what just makes it all work for me. You know, it's knowing that you're making a difference in your students lives, and they're making a difference in other people's lives to learn mathematics effectively. So it's exciting. So what do you like to do for fun? How do you balance things out? Well, I have a 12 year old 22:05 sight in spite of being a senior colleague, I'm still doing seventh grade. So part of what's really fun for me is just you know, making sure I spend a lot of fun time with her. So whatever she finds fun is what I find fun now. And part of what we love to do, I live just a couple blocks from the from the beach here in Southern California. So I love taking long walks along the beach, on the beach, and along the harbor. Yeah, I've always loved the ocean, it kind of calms my stress, just watching the waves. And as I mentioned before, I you know, I grew up the dancer and I've always kept dancing is kind of like a fun hobby. And so my daughter always cracks up when she comes in and catches me dancing alone in my room. 22:53 With my mirror, and closet doors is my stage. 22:59 So yeah, I still make moments for that. I still love the arts too. Awesome. And you know, being on podcasts, that's fine, too. 23:08 Anyone else dance in your room by yourself? 23:13 They're like, nope. 23:16 On a really good day, but I don't there's a couple of times when I've done a zoom recording and then deleted immediately. 23:27 Yeah, no, I think especially right now, it's a great question. Because I think people who are in, you know, teacher Ed, and you know, work whether it's you know, being a coach in K 12, or faculty at a distance in a university setting or community college, you know, we tend to be so passionate about our work, that it's hard to leave work, right. It's what drives us, it motivates us as part of our person. And that's why we love what we do. But also it means you know, it's hard to take time to not do that. And I think right now that balance is probably even more important than it ever has been. So yeah, those long walks with my daughter are really important. We also have Friday night game night. So we pull out all the board games on Friday and that's important. Ava, you have your your twins. What do you guys do for fun? Well, my twins are moved out. Oh, are you an empty nester? No, I still have a 12 year old. Oh, that's right that you have your daughter. That's the same age as mine. Yes. Yeah. But my older ones are no in college. 24:41 Wow. And are they actually at a campus right now? No, they're both living in apartments. Mm hmm. Great. math major in our mid 24:54 not on my end. 24:58 Maybe on my end, my day 25:00 Loves math and science but she you know likes other stuff too. But she's in algebra one right now. And she's she likes it. She likes science more though, so I might lose her out to a science major, but that's okay. I was a Chem minor for a little while. So I get it. I like playing in the lab to my kids are trying to differentiate themselves from me. So they are, they are good at math, but but they are not not pursuing math or education. Ah, my daughter who's a ninth grader was approached by some friends to get some help in math. And she was planning she's like, maybe I could start a tutoring business dad and I, I didn't tell her that I was in high school when I was helping my friends in math. And that was when I decided that's what I wanted to do for my my career. I didn't tell her that because they would ruin it. They would ruin it. Yeah, I just want to let it let it ride. Let's see what happens. Yeah, gosh, I don't remember. I think I started tutoring in elementary school even But yeah, I tutored all the way through and that was my, I had my little tutoring cache, you know that you go help student use your classmates. And then mom would, you know, give you the $5 and say, thank you for helping. 26:15 Yeah, that's how you get started. I think if you really love tutoring, it's an easy transition into teaching. Well, thanks so much for talking with us today. Babbitt, it's been great. Oh, thank you for the opportunity. I, you know, it's really nice to get to share, you know, what drives us to do what we do and if in any way, you know, hearing about my story encourages or helps somebody else to, you know, pursue something, you know, within the organization and or just, you know, more broadly a leadership role and something related to the work that they do in teacher Ed, especially with mathematics. I think it's great. So I enjoyed it, and I look forward to hearing you speak with others about their passion as well. Well, thanks again, for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, we're hoping that you're able to implement something that you just heard and take an opportunity to interact with other math teacher educators. Just one more thing before we close out the 2021 AMT annual conference will take place virtually this year with synchronous presentations and asynchronous poster sessions, please say February 11 through the 13th and February 18, through the 20th for the 2021 virtual AMT annual conference. If you've never attended before, this just might be your opportunity to do so. The meeting will feature shorter days and we would normally program for an in person convening, with schedules designed to accommodate multiple time zones. For more information, check out the AMT website at AMT IE dotnet