Dusty Jones: Hello, and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast the teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. The hosts are Eva Thanheiser, me Dusty Jones, and Joel Amidon.
Today we're talking with Dr Angela Barlow, who is the dean of the graduate school and Professor of mathematics education at the University of central Arkansas.
we've asked Angela to talk with us today about her work in teaching math teachers.
As the editor in chief of the journal mathematics teacher learning and teaching pk through 12 published by the National Council of teachers of mathematics and also Eva and Joel aren't here today, and so it's just going to be Angela and me and it's going to be a great conversation.
Welcome Angela, would you please tell us a little bit about yourself and your background, just to start off with.

Angela Barlow: Oh first Dusty, let me say thank you for having me on today, I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you all.
yeah so in terms of my background I am originally from Alabama and so, if i'm ever talking to someone and I reference home.
i'm talking about Alabama as an adult we've lived in several different states, and so we home is Alabama.
And I grew up there never really thinking about living anywhere but Alabama and so to say that graduate education and getting my PhD change that.
is an understatement and so have had the opportunity to work with teachers across the southeast and it's been you know really cool experience, I do have two children, they are lizzie is almost 26.
And she's actually she's a seventh grade math teacher right now, but she will be starting her PhD and method this fall so super excited for her and and my son is a freshman at the University of Tennessee in knoxville.
He is currently in aerospace engineering so he's working really hard to try to learn things in a virtual environment.
But by those two pieces of information, you can deduce that I am an empty nester and so there's a lot that comes with that that is a new area of exploration for me so that's just a little bit about who I am cool.

Dusty Jones: How did you start in your process of teaching math teachers.

Angela Barlow: Well, I you know I think um well there's two occurrences that led me to get my PhD one was when I received my first masters.
At graduation that day my dad looked at me and he said, you know you should get your PhD one day, and it was you know it's just all seed that was planted and then.
Four years later, which by that time I was married and had a baby that was less than a year old my husband took a new job and we were moving, and so we had the choice of moving to Montgomery Alabama where I would have.
Continued teaching or moving to auburn Alabama and I could go back to school and get my doctorate and so, then that seed that my dad had planted like bloomed blossom full blown.
Is there was there was not even a decision that was we're moving northern, and so I found myself as a gta teaching.
At that time, auburn was on the quarter system, so we had four methods classes for secondary pre service method.
majors and I had the opportunity to teach all of those I taught our we had a programming class for those students that I taught.
And I advised and I did all the supervision, and so I found myself in that role of a mathematics teacher educator.
Even though I didn't really know what I was doing or how to do it well.
and be I didn't know that I was a mathematics teacher educator like to me that was not a label I had given myself I didn't know that that was a thing.
And it really wasn't until I went to this week long nsf funded workshop at Illinois state, right after I finished my degree, and it was at that meeting, and they were all mathematics teacher educators.
And somebody said well hey have you heard of a empty, and I said no, and I wrote it down, and I think pretty soon after I got back home, I looked up a empty I probably joined it.
And it was probably three years later I went to the conference for the first time, and that was the year it was in Atlanta and and that was the moment when I said oh ma.
I am a mathematics teacher educator I have failed my people I have found a place where I can grow and get better at this, so you know I had I love working with the pre service teachers like as a gta loved it loved those people, they are now Facebook friends of mine, they turned out okay.
Even though I didn't necessarily know what I was doing, they are okay.
But yeah so it was several years before I like owned this identity that i'm a mathematics teacher educator simply because I didn't know that that was a thing by so it really was just a couple of fortunate.
Instances that put me on a path to discover that that's who I am and who I enjoy being yeah that's great.

Dusty Jones: It before you started that what what level what kind of school were you teaching at.

Angela Barlow: The first year I taught I was at a private school oddly enough, that year that I graduated in 92 it was very hard to find a math teacher job.
I sent applications all over the state of Alabama and just no bites and wound up teaching at a small private school seventh through 12th grade math plus I had girls P good tops.
And then the next year I started teaching public school and I taught a lot of ninth grade ninth graders who were taking and ones go, it was pre algebra and another school, it was general math.
taught a lot of algebra one and geometry a love teaching geometry, so my experience was, you know that one year that had some seventh grade, but the rest of it was high school.
Which is why, like later on when I found myself working with pre service elementary teachers.
You know I started looking for opportunities to teach the lower grades and actually took a year the 2008 2009 school year I got it, I had a course reduction at only us.
And taught third grade math to a local third grade class I was their math teacher just to kind of make up for that lack of teaching everyday experience you know at the elementary level, and when I was teaching testing wasn't a big thing.
Right, so we might have a test at the end of the year, but the accountability wasn't there so that was another reason that I taught.
That year because those kids would be tested and having the it's different when you're thinking about teaching and knowing you've got to test at the end of the year.
yeah so yeah so most of my experiences at the high school level yeah.

Dusty Jones: When I was when I first started teaching, there was a State test in Texas, but it wasn't.
It wasn't as big a deal as the.
State tests are now nationwide and yeah it's just a different thing students are pre service teachers now don't even know what that was like you know.
And yeah it's like it's like you know.

Angela Barlow: Well, back in the 1900s.

Dusty Jones: Well it's speaking of that and relating it to the next part that we're talking about I remember looking at cool ideas in what was then the journal mathematics teacher.
and saying Oh, this is a neat idea I think i'll try this out in my you know fourth period class, you know isn't number two is algebra one is that geometry it doesn't matter it's a great idea, you know.
Ryan, and now there's a little bit different now what.
What standards, does it address, so let me kind of use that talking about you know journal articles to.
 to shift it to me.

Angela Barlow: One of the things that you're going to help us.

Dusty Jones: Understand so let's talk about writing articles for teachers, so I know you've done this.
And so to think about your experience as an author what what's the best advice you received when you started trying to write articles for teachers.

Angela Barlow: So.
When I started writing I don't know that I got any advice I would say, but what I would say is that I had a mindset that this is something.
That it's like a competition right, so you know getting something published is winning and so, if I put something in for consideration and they rejected well that just means I lost the battle, not the war.
Okay, and now they've given me some information that's going to help me to do better in the next battle right and so through persistence and listening to review or feedback I could read crime.
Many scripts so that they would eventually get published and so that I would say again, not advice that anyone gave me, but instead just a mindset with how I approach that, and you know we've all gotten those rejection letters were oh reviewer to God they.
were changing even re the night for.
And so you have to set that aside, like walk away from it give it three good days and then come back to it and and then begin to rate it four Okay, what is this tell me that I need to make clear what is this tell me that I need to focus on etc, and so, nearly all of my.
practitioner pieces, particularly those written in that first decade, where I was doing these things.
But there's a story behind each one where it was rejected once, twice, three times before, eventually, you got that major revision, and you know and back then, I called I called those foot in the door manuscripts like I just all I wanted was just my foot in the door.
so that I could get some feedback and and push this thing forward, and now I know to call those major revisions, but yeah so it was more about just seeing it as a competition and being persistent about i'm going to win this.
And this will be published and hanging in there.
And I actually took that idea and turned it into an editorial last year, so for empty lt each month there's comments from the editors.
I don't always write them sometimes the associate editors why those but last February, I wrote one and I don't remember the title but there's a video add on to it and in it, I talked about.
Thinking about a rejection letter as a an invitation to try again and, this time with feedback and so, that is, you know what comes out of this.
mindset that i'm sharing is that that rejection letter it's not that your ideas are bad, and you should just go away, is that you should try again, and now you have some feedback to God you that maybe you didn't have before so that's really what led me through those initial writing experiences.

Dusty Jones: yeah and I think it's important that I really appreciate you sharing those experiences that you have been rejected, before.
Because we all have but it's not necessarily we don't always talk about and I remember I forget who it was, but I remember seeing on Twitter a couple of weeks ago, someone saying you know this.
This manuscript finally was accepted, it was initially thought of you know 11 years ago.
And then, it was sent here and rejected sent here and rejected and sent here.

Angela Barlow: Right.

Dusty Jones: And we worked on it, and you know and those stories are really important it's not just the oh great you know Angela barlow writes wonderful things and she just wakes up and three articles fallout, you know and.

Angela Barlow: There we go, you know but.

Dusty Jones: With everything is is that so I like that idea of.
Having that good mindset, you know you just being persistent in that, so what what advice I guess i'm gonna ask you to put on your editor hat.
So what advice would you give to someone.
Who is writing an article for empty empty.

Angela Barlow: So there's several things that come to mind I think first is to know your audience.
And the audience for empty lt is different from talking about the membership of nc tm so it's in CTS journal, yes, when you talk about the membership, though you've got.
Pre K 12 teachers, you have university folks you've got researchers practitioners like there's just a really wide variety and for that reason, in CCM has a wide variety of publications.
Empty lt, though, is specific to supporting the work of pre K 12 teachers, so you have to be mindful of your audience when you're writing.
articles for empty empty so.
Then, with that in mind, I encourage people to actually read MTLT.
P, you know that seems kind of common sense, but a lot of articles that get rejected I end up saying this to the author, I encourage you to read several issues of MTLT
I encourage you to look for an article or two that may have a structure of it that you could emulate in your own life right, because it is a different way of writing I was actually talking with someone, the other day she had received a rejection letter and she's a researcher.
She had written to the correct audience so that was you know, not an issue.
But in the article, there were so many details and what I realized from talking with her, is that we write a research article, we have to tell everything.
Like beginning to end, every detail every you know everything that comes along, but when you're writing for a practitioner all of the.
details are not necessarily needed like you have to get straight to the point hook, the raider what's your purpose, you know the purpose is to share this strategy or whatever it is.
demonstrate the strategy use of student work classroom video classroom vignettes whatever it is to show the effectiveness of that.
and then wrap it up with a conclusion that's very different from writing a research paper, so that prot.
Practice of reading what's been published and empty lt helps you to begin to craft manuscripts in that way where they're speaking to the practitioner and they're straight and into the point.

Dusty Jones: that's good.

Angela Barlow: I was trying to think if there's anything else outside you know now that i've got an audience, what else I say yeah.

Dusty Jones: i'm just.
Trying to I wrote some notes really fast, but you know know the audience that's really important and and you're right it's not.

Angela Barlow: we're trying to write to all nc.

Dusty Jones: TEAM members, but just this particular audience nc GM has other journals mathematics teacher educator is one of them, you know as a co sponsor with at amp T and that's for a different group of people.
Different group of readers then.

Angela Barlow: and see it.

Dusty Jones: And I really liked the.
idea and advice, although it takes work it takes time to read those articles, you know and see.
and see what see what the structure is what the format is and they're not they're not identical i've read several articles.
And so, but you get kind of a.
flavor of that maybe that's not the best word, but you get an idea of what the what the writing might look like for that and then i'll just.
i'll just go through what what I heard you say you want to hook, the reader you want to identify the purpose of the article, you know, maybe it's a strategy for teaching demonstrate that strategy use student work to show the effectiveness or whatever.
Other measures you've got and then a conclusion yeah so we're it's we're not writing a dissertation and we're not writing right.
we're also not writing just you know here's a great idea that I haven't practiced you know.
Is that right.

Angela Barlow: Yes, we so we do get some articles that are written in a town of you know here's a task or great problem here's what you could do with it here's what you should do with it, those don't review very well.
You know, there are some that make it through to publication, but for the most part they don't review well what reviewers tend to respond favorably to is here's what I did here's what my students said.
If I did this again here's you know here's what I learned from doing this, so they want that experience, because that gives one, it gives the practicing teacher a glimpse of what that looks like in practice.
So they're not you know they're not blindly implementing it they've got some ideas and then to it provides a little bit of evidence, like if you claim students learn something from this task.
Well, you need to show some student work that provides evidence of what they learned we're not at the rigor of like a jr me manuscript we don't have to have you know 100 students were surveyed and they all said this was great.
But you know some simple students.
samples that demonstrate what those students were thinking.
And it really is about the student thinking, much more so than the teacher thinking yeah yeah.

Dusty Jones: And i'm thinking back to some manuscripts that I had submitted and two different journals but teacher for teachers, especially and me getting that feedback, of how does this work with students and I thought.
I keep getting this keep getting this comment.
Maybe that's something I need to include you know you know.
It was like you said it wasn't something that somebody told me, but it was some advice from the editors of the.
reviewers.
And so I started, you know, maybe, if I can include some work and then I realized that's as I kind of learned, who I am.
As a math teacher educator.
yeah that's something I enjoy and that's something I think that is helpful to to.
People who want to hear the story.
about what i'm what i'm writing about.

Angela Barlow: Right yeah so.

Dusty Jones: What makes what makes a good day as as the editor of the journal.

Angela Barlow: Well i'd like to say it's a day, where we accept a lot of great manuscripts.
And we're not worried about do we have enough in the pipeline I you know I think for me dusty a good day in general, involves fight there's a couple of things that come to mind one a good day is going to be one where I walk away with.
A memorable story to tell.
Okay, and I say memorable because I am middle aged now and one of my superpowers is forgetting, so it has to be memorable.
i'm a storyteller so i'm you know i'm looking for material to use my story, so a good day is one where I walk away and i've got a good story to tell, and you know I mentioned earlier, that in the.
school year I taught a third grade math class, and so one of the stories that I love to tail from that year it was like in the spring of 2009 and the third graders are learning about fractions for the first time.
Basically, what is a fraction, how do you represent it if I have this fraction what is the whole you know that kind of stuff, and so we had pattern blogs on the.
projector and I had pattern blocks showing one third, and I had pattern blogs showing to six and they've labeled them one third, and two, six and one of the students said.
Dr barlow those look like the same to me.
And my eyes got real big and my face got very animated and I said man did y'all hear that.
So, and so just said that those two look the same to him, I said i'm gonna tell y'all we call those equivalent fractions.
And we're not going to talk about that today in class, because these are in the fourth grade curriculum and we're in the third grade, but how cool is that that so and so is doing fourth grade math today, and so, then we got back to the lesson.
When when the lesson ended the students all want to go out to recess and the kid came over to me, and he took down my dress I looked down and he said, Dr Carl like just really serious concerned.
Dr barlow I don't even know if i'm will make it to fourth grade.
I said man I tell you what mathematically you're already there, and he smiled and he walked away yeah so you know that's a story it's memorable it sticks with me it's a moment that man that was so.
I was so proud for him haha that was received with the class what I got to say to him as a result of that so that's just a wonderful story that sticks with you.
But then I use that story with pre service teachers right so there's always this moment where pre service teachers are questioning, how do you teach math without telling everything.
You know, and that is just a classic example of how you can situate students.
who are making sense of mathematics and that they begin to see things and they give you the you know what you need to be able to push their thinking forward yeah.
So you know back to your original question, what makes a good day a good day is when you walk away and have a memorable story.
You can tell the other part, to it when I think about a good day is I.
A good day involves a lot of Laughter
Okay Okay, and so you know if i'm laughing it's probably because i've told a story that was either funny or the audience people listening were like I can't believe she just said that.
Because I do have a pretty stern face like when i'm and i'm a Dane, so your perception is you're like this.

Dusty Jones: you're not only an editor you're also a Dean so.

Angela Barlow: Right, you know, so you got a pretty serious in life.
And so, sometimes I tell a story and they just kind of laugh because i'm the one that tell that story.
there's also moments, where I laugh because it's just really sick silly middle school kind of stuff you know so you're sitting in a meeting and somebody talking about duties and you're just on like dying on the inside, because they just said duties, you know.
And That to me is funny and what I love about it is that, if I can laugh about that what that means is i'm surrounded by people where I can bring my true self to.
To the table yeah and I can be who I am and laugh about that and they're not going to judge me and they're going to laugh with me or at me and that's fine.
But then also laughter comes into play through collaboration and I think that's where either as an editor in chief or as a Dean, or as a mathematics teacher educator or you know, whatever role on and if I am collaborating with someone or a team of people.
And we're laughing, not only are we have we brought ourselves our true selves to the table.
But we have also spark creativity like laughter leads to creativity and creativity leads to a stronger product.
So when I look back and I see a day that i've had to laugh whether it's i've had the opportunity to laugh whether it's you know any of those kind of settings that's a good day.
And because in general you're around people that you enjoy being around, and so, even when i'm meeting with someone whose manuscript has been rejected.
that's not like the best conversation to have about why but I bring humor to the conversation because it.
builds a relationship that now that we can have honesty we can have an honest and open conversation about how to improve on this work and push it forward.
same thing with difficult conversations with faculty or students or whomever humorous very important to me and so laughing makes for a good day that's great.

Dusty Jones: So one of the things we want to do with this podcast is help people who are kind of starting out.
As a.
teacher educators, give them kind of some some places where they can get some ideas of where to go for resources or.

Angela Barlow: An.

Dusty Jones: Online is a great place to look for resources, so do you have any suggestions of where you like to go online when you're looking for good ideas or resources to do whatever the work.

Angela Barlow: Right yeah I think you know my go to first of all, is my professional organizations okay so nct has lots of resources in CSM.
Has resources AMT you know these different organizations put together resources for their members that you know it's typically been vetted it's been tried out instant practiced and it's you know.
you've got a pretty good chance that it's going to work for you as well, which is different from just an Internet search right, I mean I learned early on, you could spend three hours on the Internet and not find.
Anything or find 1000 versions of the same thing right, and so it wasn't time well spent, so if I instead went to an organization's website.
Then I was more than likely going to find something that I could use and know that it would be fruitful, you know towards meeting my goals outside of organizations i've always.
enjoyed the material from that comes out of math solutions so Maryland burns company like they always have really great.
resources.
i've also used the illustrative mathematics website looking for tasks that Todd have different standards and then using those with either students or pre service teachers so Those were my mind go tues.

Dusty Jones: that's great i'll put these in the show notes, so people can.
click on those websites if they want that's that's.
helpful and one thing I like is we get kind of a we ask different people this question and we start to hear the same sorts of things.
We think Okay, these are.
These are good, these are good places to go.
 What do you do for fun, how do you balance things out when you're not you know, having your stern face, but still laughing with people in me.
So.

Angela Barlow: What do I do for fun so.
I would so first of all, I think that the fun part is you know the reason you engage in the fun activities to keep your sanity right.
So I don't have a goal of trying to balance my life like work bleeds into personal life i'm the mom at the birthday party he's probably reading somebody's dissertation while the kids are swimming.
yeah so I don't i've never had ballads.
But I do have things that kind of distract me for a moment, so that I maintain my sanity So the first thing that comes to mind is days girl lives.

Dusty Jones: Okay, so.

Angela Barlow: I watch Days of Our Lives every day and have, for a very long time.

Dusty Jones: I just same old Sammy like I watched it.

Angela Barlow: Yes, i'm still there.

Dusty Jones: You know yeah.

She.
should say me comes and goes she's.
There right now.
You know she is yes.

Dusty Jones: back into it.

Angela Barlow: But see these are people that i've grown up with they have their lives are much worse than mine right anything that happens to me it's 10 times worse in that little midwestern town of Salem.
And so, but that gives me time right to step away from the world, so I watched a small office every day and I either watch it in the morning, like when i'm getting ready.
Or if it's a long day and I come home and I like don't want to work on anything I just watch it and kind of stare at it so that's one The second thing that I do and have done for a long time is follow SEC sports.
In southeastern conference sports.
i'm from an auburn family, so of course you know i'm watching for auburn football is a religion, I said total I was from Alabama so auburn football, all the way and because i'm true auburn that means I have to hate Alabama.

Dusty Jones: Okay.

Angela Barlow: I mean that's a given and got you know daughter that graduated from Tennessee i've spent time it, I will miss my husband graduated from only us with a master's so just a lot of connections that make watching SEC sports fun.
So that's another place where I kind of withdrawal from the world and step into a different world and can forget the other.
i've never been one to exercise like I was always too tied up doing stuff either for kids and for work, but now that i'm an empty nester so that just means like in the last year i've started jazzercise.
Okay, so that is my other what I do for fun piece, my colleague and I both are empty nesters and about a year and a half ago we said okay we're going to do something and we settled on jazzercise so four nights a week, unless we have something that prevents us from going.
We go to jazzercise and we dance and we laugh.
And we shimmy and we.
have a lot of fun, but you know there's only been one night that I jazzercise and I was distracted by work like it's a really great place to just.

Dusty Jones: let it go and you know.

Angela Barlow: And not even worry about it so that's important yeah.

Dusty Jones: that's good, and it does help you maintain your sanity I think.

Angela Barlow: It does.
You know, hang work stuff up.
Then.

Dusty Jones: You know, do this other stuff yeah that's great.
yeah well i'm you know I feel like i'm all caught up on days of our lives, now, even though I haven't.

Angela Barlow: watched it since like.

Dusty Jones: 2000 but.

Angela Barlow: Well, they are notorious for bringing people back is sane people coming back and even after they killed them off they bring them back so you know.
it's all good.

Dusty Jones: Do you have anything that you'd like to promote, I guess, besides the empty empty journal for people.

Angela Barlow: Yes, and.

Dusty Jones: And right for that.

Angela Barlow: yeah so a few things come to mind one last week I did a webinar for AMT that was about writing for empty lt guiding thoughts for mathematics teacher educators so.
We in that webinar really drill down to if your work is with pre service or in service teachers, how do you take that work and spin it.
so that you can publish an empty lt so.
Anyone who's listening and heard that statement and goes oh that's me, I would encourage you to go and why is you know it was recorded so it'll be made available.
But there's some really good information in there, specifically about pre service and service, teachers and how to write about that, when the audience of the journal is the pre K 12 teacher, so that I would.
Think people would be interested in.
We also are doing a webinar nc tm is sponsoring a webinar on may 11 about how to turn your presentation into an empty empty article, so you know right now we're kicking off.
Our you know virtual conferences, people are where it's heavy presentation time and so, then, how do you take that presentation and turn it into a Piper will be the focus of that webinar and again that's on may 11 sponsored by in cgm so it'll be on their website.
I do have a session with the conference this year it's one of the pre recorded sessions which right now i'm like Oh, thank goodness that thanks pre recorded.
What ways near pod for it so i'm kind of interested to see how people respond to this presentation that's facilitated through near pod.
But anyway, those sessions for nc tim's virtual conference will be available for 60 days, so you know interested people I would encourage you to look up our presentation its own using ipads.
Effectively, using ipads in the elementary mathematics classroom so that's.
Something i'll promote and then the other thing i'll share is that I did have an article that was published in the mathematics teacher educator in February.
And recently sat down with Eva and talked about it, along with my co author Natasha so that podcast will be available on a mts website soon so that's great Those are my shameless plugs for things happening right now.

Dusty Jones: yeah you don't have to put any shame on it, because.
I like the fact that a lot of these things are accessible to people, you know online, so they can.
come out.
And access and access those okay thanks so much it's been wonderful talking with you, we know we've people who don't know us don't know that we know each other outside of this podcast.

Right.

Dusty Jones: With you whenever I get a chance to you're usually in a different state every time I living in a different state.
Every time yeah.

Angela Barlow: I do take advantage of opportunities, one day we will move out one day i'll retire, and we will move on to Alabama and and then I won't move again and I may have one or two more moves left in me before that happens we'll see.
Oh no my employer might have just heard.

Dusty Jones: Well, you move.
There you know you.

Angela Barlow: Did I did i'm here yeah.

Dusty Jones: Well, thanks so much, I really it's really been a pleasure talking with you.

Angela Barlow: yeah this was fun, I appreciate the opportunity yeah.

Dusty Jones: And thanks again to all you listening to the teaching math teaching podcast be sure to subscribe to the podcast.
We hope you're able to implement something you just heard and take an opportunity to interact with other math teacher educators, speaking of interacting.
What do you want to hear and upcoming podcast and who do you want to hear from you can let us know, through the virtual suggestion box at find it at the contact us page at teaching math teaching podcast COM or in the show notes for this episode.