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Hello and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. Your hosts are Eva Sennheiser, myself, dusty Jones, and Joel Amidon. Today we're talking to Dr. Tiffany tines curry. Dr. tines curry is a former elementary math teacher at Vineland Park Elementary, a current district instructional coach and leader. We're excited to speak with Tiffany today. Welcome, Tiffany, I thank you. Thank you for having me today. We're so excited. You're here and I just wanted to kick it off by asking you can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yes. But before I do, I wanted to provide a little background context. So I'm a native of Columbus, Ohio, and I attended Columbus city schools. And this is my 20th year working for the Columbus City School District. And before I share a little about myself, I would like to paint this worship of the Columbus City School District. So Columbus city schools, we have over 51,000 students, making it the largest urban school district in the state of Ohio. 54.1% of our students are black 22.1% are white 12.5% are Hispanic. 7.1 identify as multiracial. 3.9%, Asian 7.1% students have disabilities, 17% English learners, and 100% economic disadvantage. And so I kind of want to provide that context before I begin to share a little bit about my narrative and who I am. So as a math learner, I excelled in math. However, it took me like four to five times to pass the Ohio mass standardized test, which we all know is a basic skills test. This made absolutely no sense as I was taking precalculus. You know, at the time, I was taught the math was something that you were either good at or not. So the belief was that mashing be difficult or struggle, the focus back then was more and doing that, rather than knowing the math, and I definitely didn't identify as a math person at all. So if a However, if a procedure was given, I was confident as I only had to memorize the steps. And this pretty much set the course of how I identified myself as a math learner. And it wasn't until my first year of teaching as a fifth grade math teacher, which by the way, my father still cannot believe, to this very, I started off teaching math did actually start to make those connections, theme patterns and the relationships between numbers, I knew I wanted my students to have a different perspective and experience with math. So I signed up for every single math PD. And again, I was Elementary. So I signed up for every PD possible that was offered by my district. And this is when I found that I actually enjoy teaching. And

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this was the first time I actually had the opportunity to use manipulatives, and various other strategies to help represent my thinking, listening to new ideas from others, and how there are multiple ways to reach a solution. I this was all new for me because this was not how my math environment was shaped as a student from elementary, middle school or high. So as I've resolved these experiences, my teaching changed. And it helped to create a different map identity for myself, but it also helped to shape my students identity as math learners. And my last teaching experience at Weiland Park, I taught third grade, which in our state, this is the transitional year, and the first year standardized testing. So math teaching, for me became more than just the right answers. But now shift to a focus on the process. I really wanted my students to understand math instead of replicating my approach to doing math. And I will admit that I sometimes they'll have anxiety when I attend like a math PD or random problems are presented and discussed, without having the opportunity to bet those problems ahead of time, as I'm still uncomfortable for myself, acknowledging the fact that productive struggle is a part of the learning process. But I do want others to discover that I didn't have a strategy to access the problem immediately, or if I had an incorrect solution. So remember, it was embedded in my head that math was done quickly, in either you know it or you don't. So this part of my narrative is what I did not want to project on my students. So I spent a lot of time

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I'm engaging my students are rich problems, which would basically take up the entire math block. So that pretty much is who I am as a math learner, and then also how I became a math teacher. That sounds I think very similar to many of us that we excelled in a kind of mathematics that we now are not advocating for. I don't know dusty Angel, do you relate to that? Yes, definitely. When I was a fourth grade student, that's when we had these timed multiplication tests where you'd have one minute and I was very good at multiplication, but I would still be trying to get all of the problems done. And I would be so agitated and nervous at the end of it. I remember one student, Cory de Berry, looking over and saying, dusty, are you okay? Because I was just like shaking visibly from the adrenaline or the anxiety that accompany that. And so when I was teaching fourth grade, years later, I thought, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to put students through this, It surprises me how this is still a practice today. And I will admit, in my earlier years of teaching math, this is what I was told to do, by students had to increase their fluency and the automaticity. And they had to be fast and quick. And as you stated, looking at some of my students, they had anxiety and they became discouraged if they did not meet their goal, or I'm free. So I definitely agree with your statement. Well, that's like, I mean, my own experience is to I love those things. I love the times tests, and I was good. And I knew the answers. And I just had to memorize like that was something like a skill that I had, but in the end, and I and like I reflect back on it, I knew the answers, but I didn't know the process. Right? And I didn't know what actually multiplication was like, I'm normally like, almost had them just the answer, just memorize like flashcards, and sort of think back on it. It's like, I knew how to shoot baskets. But I didn't know how to play basketball. And so that's the way I think about it when I look back at my own experience in math class, and like how I want to, I want to teach how to process not just those exercises, right? Yes. And I was speaking to one of my friends yesterday, we just happened to zoom. And she had flashcards in her hand. And I said, What are you doing?

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This a long time, if you want my daughter, you know, she's going to second grade. And she still acts as if she doesn't understand these basic addition facts. And I said, well show me a card, like what are you doing? So the card said two plus four? And I said instead of asking her, you know what the answer is ask her how many twos, you know that she's seeing all and see if she can make that connection that will for the same thing as two groups of two. And then all together, I have three groups or two. And this will kind of lead into the beginning steps of multiplication and equal group. So she's like, Oh, I didn't even think of it that way. And I say, Yeah, because most of us we were taught just, if you can remember the actual facts and say it fast that you know it, but we all are aware of that. rote memorization does not transfer to the perceptual understands. And so trying to intercept that now, before her daughter becomes a victim to you know, the math education that I received going up, we're going to point out the difference between the numeral and a numeral which is like some symbol, right? It doesn't even show represented you like translated down to lay, let's really make sure that we understand that that four is, you know, the quantity four. And like that there's a difference between just the symbols. I think, somewhere along the line, someone showed that to me, like, those are abstract and like to really get into what making sense, like, you know, a flashcard with like, you know, almost like the domino dots or something like that. So it can people can say, oh, there's different ways I could think about this, like, now I see, you know, if I see the dots, I see three groups of two, I see two groups of three, possibly, if it's the other way around, you know, like all those different ways to think about it, which now makes it fun. Like, you know, we get to bring our perspectives to it versus just spit out the answer. Yes, the same thing with four plus five, but someone may say, oh, there's too good for four plus one. But another person may visualize, oh, I have two groups of five and I take one away. Yeah, as you said, it's open to individual perceptions. If students are allowed the opportunity to just tell me what what do you notice? What do you see? Not what is the actual song or the ad? Is that equal to so this is amazing, because my next question was going to be tell us a little bit about what your classroom looks like. But I think in the conversations that we had, we got a little glimpse. I still want to keep that question on the table, though. Like, what would a good classroom look like in

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Your view, but also then transitioning into this current situation that we have, like, what are we doing about these things now? And I wanted to provide a little context, because I'm not currently in the capacity of a classroom teacher. So currently, my position is a district transformation coach. And whenever I say that people say, what exactly does that mean? So I provide professional development and support, the school improvement plans, instructional strategies, teacher based teams, building leadership teams, coaching cycles, I can model lessons, and any other requests that may be made by the building principal, or teachers. So when I work with teachers, I like to see myself as their thought partner, or his or her thought partner. If I teach a willing, I will observe lessons and debrief with her directly after typically, I always begin my conversations with but what do you believe went well, and this lesson, my main objective is to get the teacher to reflect on his practice and to share his thinking with me, as mentioned before, and also modeled lessons with a focus on showing teacher how to engage students in a mathematical discussion. So I really focus on this course. So basically, when I am facilitating a lesson for a teacher, I'm talking less. So I'm posing more questions to the students, and walking around the classroom to observe the strategies being used. I record what I have noticed, and I'm listening to students talk with one another about their own mathematical thinking. So this last year, again, my main focus has have been on student discourse and productive my struggle. Because as I mentioned, with my own experience, we are not comfortable with students struggling mathematically, but is a difference between struggling and productive struggle. And that is that conversation that must be had. So mostly, I want to help teachers empower their students, I want them to be able to give their students a voice within the classroom and have the exchange of student ideas, their representation, their thinking, or talking, agreeing and disagreeing. So basically, a lot of the work from Hattie Fisher and Frye visible learning should be a part of students daily mathematical experiences in the classroom. So the main question is, how can we make learning visible for all students? And as I mentioned earlier, you know, many teachers are uncomfortable with math, and will openly admit to it, I find it very interesting that as a society, it's acceptable to say, I'm sorry, it's not acceptable to say I hate reading, or I'm not good at reading. However, it's perfectly acceptable for us to say, Oh, I can't stand math, but don't get me a math problem. So I try to encourage teachers not to project their math anxiety on students, what ultimately is their math identity. So I also want to encourage intentional planning. So I'm packing standards become familiar with that standard, and truly gain an understanding of what that standard implies. And by this, I mean, so we're thinking about what strategies were students use? as they approach this particular problem that the teacher created? What are the misconceptions that students may have? How can we create a few pre planned questions that will help students successfully complete the task, but also show evidence of their understanding? reminding teachers to focus on the process, and not so much on the correct answers also been a huge part of the conversations that are engaged teachers that engage teachers, and excuse me, again, many teachers teach as they were taught. So teachers have an understanding of students thinking that it'll be easier to help students identify their own era. And it's also important for teachers to know how plant activities will help students develop a better understanding of who they are as learners of math, while also providing useful information that's going to inform their practice, and also to gain a better understanding of their students. It all comes back to being intentional. And ultimately, that goal is for students to take ownership of their learning, and apply their thinking to the contexts and situations, which you know, we all like to call that transfer learning. But it's also important to give a voice to the silence and underrepresented students within our classroom and giving all students a voice and allowing them to recognize experience and communicate their brilliance is a goal that we all should be striving for within our classrooms.

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And when I was actually in the classroom, I have four goals for my students. My first goal was to help my students discover the voices. My second goal was to help them find their passion. My third goal was to how we write their narrative as, as math learners. And lastly, it was to create this culture where it was embedded in our learning environment, that everyone has something to contribute to the discussion. So I wanted everyone to feel comfortable taking risk, knowing it's okay if you don't have an answer. But you will have the opportunity to listen to your classmates ideas and see their strategies and to see if you're able to make a connection to their thinking, and to reflect on your own practice and see, what do I know about this problem? What information can I use to access this information as a learner myself? So I know that was a lot Sorry, just as you're talking, and you're talking about, you know, like, how you were in the classroom, and then how you working with teachers, it almost feels like there's a parallel going on with what you talked about before with, you know, the math problems with it. You know, you have your teachers that were, you probably are working with teachers that, like you said, that wanted to teach the way that they were taught, it's like, they already have the answer, right? They already have the answer. But you're like, you already have the answer. But you want them to back up and be like, but there's other ways to get to that answer. And you're talking about, you know, with your students with the voices, passion, narrative and culture, it seems like what you're doing with your teachers is like doing the same thing, except now instead of doing mathematics, you're talking about teaching mathematics. Yeah, it feels like there's some sort of parallel going on there. And it's a huge shift. And I will admit, it is an uncomfortable shift. I remember when I went through this process myself, if you're caught in the middle of feel so good, but at the same time, you're afraid, because again, you don't want people to know like, Ooh, I'm not very comfortable with, you know, my, and if you give me a steps or procedure, oh, I am amazing. But take away that process just asked me what do I notice? Or what approach can I take? Now, that's a whole different conversation. And I think for so long, our students have not been made to be a mathematician, they haven't been told. And again, I was third grade, I was that transitional year. And many of and I'm not knocking k one and two, but they have so much to cover, and they believe by the show, if I show them if I model if I had them practice that same skill over and over and over again, and they're fine going to get it. But then when they come upstairs, I say upstairs, because third, fourth, and fifth. Yeah. Or we're like, oh, my gosh, like they, when you ask them a question, they shut down. So you know, me being quiet was I had to learn that skill, like, hey, it's not my job to just give you the answer. I'm curious about what you think. Because what I think of what you think could be totally different. And then once they began to become comfortable in themselves as a math learner, Oh, my gosh, it was just amazing to see the light bulb and how students got excited, and they want to share their answers and be involved in the process. So it takes that you have to really build that environment. But trust me, our students know a lot more than what we give them credit for, you know, even kindergarten students, they get to multiplication, they won't call it that. But they could they're there. If you ask them how to, you know, share this candy equally, I guarantee you, they will solution to that problem. And that's multiplication without putting a name to it. But giving students the opportunity to just explore and to ask questions, and be okay with not having to answer at the end of the day. That's great. That's reminding me of some conversations I was having with students. And I'm teaching a summer class right now. And one of the things I was asking them, what questions would you ask the student that they just saw in a video them forward? And a few of them were really struggling with coming up with questions, they were saying, Well, I would tell them this, or I would explain that I said, No, I really want you to ask a question here. I want you to try to find out more from from this student. I had another question Tiffany for you. Because I feel like you're in a really unique position that you're you are working and you have been working in the same cultural context. And I think if I'm right, even school district that you attended when you were younger, is that right? You are correct. Yeah. So I think you have a wealth of cultural knowledge that's just kind of embedded in you about what it's like in Columbus City School District. Can you can you talk a little bit about that? How you leverage that resource of knowing

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So much because you've been through it and how you use that to help learn make learning visible for all students. Well, I think you stated exactly what I'm about to say. So when I look at my students, I see myself, remember because I am a product of Columbus city schools, and we are large urban district. So you can add in your own personal biases, what do you think I'm implying, because I probably am applying that. So it is a, there is a preconceived notion, these kids can't, you know, due to the various barriers, and I'm going to admit, we have some extreme cases here, and a lot of social emotional aspects that do impede on learning. However, I love the fact that I can relate, I understand the currency of the students here, because I am from the same area, and I still live in Columbus city. So I'm relatable. And I know for some, it takes a while to be able to understand the context, because many of our teachers are from suburban or rural areas, or just not from Columbus period. So it takes a while for them to gain that. Just that knowledge of the community and how to leverage the community as a way to gain a better understanding of your students. And once you understand your students, you can truly teach your students because they know you care about them, you're there to help them truly see themselves beyond what they ever imagined. So I don't know if I really answer your question. But I think for me, I'm so invested, because I am Columbus city. Okay, that makes sense. You know, and I, of course, I could have left, I could go to another district. But it's important for me to remain in this community, because a lot of our black and brown babies, they are perceived as if again, I have to tell you, I have to show you, you're not bringing anything to the table. And that's not the case. So my main goal was to help we write the narratives on my students, through the use of math, that's the only thing I've taught for 20 years is math. And that's been a blessing. Because I've had the opportunity to be able to

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leverage my own playing field. That's great. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. What was your experiences of that I had my own assumptions of what it might be like, but I really wanted to hear your thoughts on that. So thank you. Yeah. And being from the community, it's like you're showing them, hey, look at me and look at my look at what I'm doing with mathematics. And you can do things with mathematics as well. And so I think that's great. Like being a part of the community. And coming from there and showing what's what's possible is, that's awesome. And I'm very open about my students very transparent. When I was in a classroom, or even the teachers that I work with, I let them know math was not my thing. Again, I was good at math, because if you showed me the actual procedure, bam, I haven't memorized. But if you actually asked me that, what exactly does this mean? So what is taking place within numbers? I wouldn't have a clue. And when I do my PDS, even though I'm not content specific, everyone knows that my baby is math. So we're going to engage in stewing discourse or productive map discourse. That's pretty much what it's going to be about. And I had so many teachers get frustrated with me because they can give me the answer. And then when I asked them, okay, so what exactly does this mean? What's actually taking place? And I, well, what do you mean, I had the correct answer. And I said, Well, look, I didn't care about the answer. Can you explain to me what's taking place within your thinking here, and they will literally shut down on me because I feel as if I am trying to discredit their knowledge and their understanding, and that's not the case. I'm trying to give them I'm comfortable with being uncomfortable. Because that's pretty much what we're doing to our students. We put these fancy problems up, we say, solve this problem. And then when a spirit can't solve the problem, we start asking questions. But the problem is, we scaffold the questions down so low, that we take away the actual rigor, and we actually changed the question that we initially started with. So now still feeling successful, but it was not the actual question that we initially proposed to teachers. And so it's really just a process and I really wish we had the opportunity to focus more on mathematics, but in my district, and sure everywhere else, reading takes precedence over everything. And I'm like, Guys, but math is just as powerful. You know, kind of reminds me we had a Mandy Janssen on compliance. We did the book club for the podcast in June on her book, rough draft math, and the difference between in using rough draft and like unfinished thinking within math

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classrooms into basically shift it from this performance culture like I've got to perform right? I've got to have that answer to participation. Like, it's about knowing what's behind the scenes isn't about that sort of thinking, not just did we get the answer correct. And so it's that set shifting. And so it's almost like taking those ideas of rough draft math from teaching the students to like, now we're thinking about teaching teachers and like, we're all in the process of becoming something and so like, our culture is that we are going to care about what's behind the problem we want to get at student thinking and stuff like that. So it feels like that's the kind of things that you're getting at with your approach to working with your teachers and which is fabulous. Well, thank you, that's I'm trying because a shift in your ideology is not going to change unless new information is presented. And you're given the time to actually, you know, stop, pause, reflect process, but then have someone engaging in conversation to help you make sense of your own thinking. And that's why I Bibles, me too, with students working in isolation, yeah, you could put a student in front of a computer, but they need to have other voices to help them process their thinking, there needs to be an opportunity for them to ask questions and to see other strategies and then go back to their, whatever they're working on, see if they can make better sense of it. So let's kind of start wrapping up our conversation. And I wanted to touch a little bit on the what's happening right now with potentially going online and how some of this stuff may play out online. So I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about what's happening in your school district and how you are preparing for that. So right now DB opening plan for our district as a blended learning platform. So two days brick in three days click. However, due to the increasing numbers of COVID-19. In Ohio, I truly wouldn't be surprised if we begin the school year virtually, my district has provided a robust online learning platform to serve students in every grade level and academic area. However, I think what we're missing here are those live learning sessions, that I kind of mentioned earlier, that we have to provide us the opportunity to engage in live learning sessions, and not just to sit in front of a computer. Despite how well designed we believe that curriculum may be students, we have to hear strategies and see solutions, you know, have those opportunities to ask questions of others, and to listen to others ideas and responses to just make sense of the mouth that is in front of them. And I'm also a little have a little bit of anxiety for teachers, because this year, our district has adopted two new material options for math and reading. So not only what teachers have to grapple with, okay, how am I going to assure Bible curriculum for students, virtually, but they also have to learn two new material options in math and reading, which is so huge, and our teachers are overwhelmed right now. Their anxiety levels are extremely high. And we're just all trying to figure out how to navigate everything virtually. And so for me, I believe now more than ever, teachers will have to work collectively together to ensure students receive a Bible or rigorous you know, education. But also we need to remember to support each other. And to remember the importance of being flexible. And to be just that learn to be uncomfortable with what we don't know, as I think it was mentioned earlier, and I always come back to that learning is always unfinished. And learning is always unfinished than teaching is also unfinished. And so I think we need to take kitavans just relax, we'll get through it. We're always here together, teachers have a wonderful way of banding together supporting each other to really create some exceptional award for students. That's really good advice, take care of each other. And it's just such an unknown territory that we're entering. So before we close up, I wanted to give one more opportunity to both Joelle and dusty to ask a final question. And then also to you Tiffany to add anything else that you would like so, Tiffany, I guess, my main question is, as teachers of math teachers, were all you know, teachers and math teachers, if someone's new to doing that, like they're moving into this role, and you kind of talked a little bit about the transition in your current

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Before, but what's one piece of advice you would have for someone that's making that transition from the classroom to being more a teacher of teachers? I think the main thing is we are all first year teachers right now, rather, if you are in a classroom or actually supporting teachers, and I think to keep in the forefront of what it felt like to be in that teacher's particular situation, what are just some areas that you can offer support? How can you be just that ear, sometimes, teachers just want the opportunity to bet well, that someone is truly listening to them, and not just listening to respond. But to truly listen to understand, I think to let the teacher know that you are there for them. Rather, that means, again, to listen or to help pack the standards to create lessons. And I mentioned earlier, we really just have to band together again, because this is new for us all. We're all really just trying to survive the best way we can while working during a pandemic. And so we just need to keep that in the forefront. But what I really would love for teachers to be able to do just holistically is to really reflect on what inequities have surfaced as a result of COVID-19. Yes, you know, despite every classroom having access to Chromebooks, and other technologies, are we really preparing our students for the global technological advancements for 21st century? And we like to use, you know, those fancy words of Oh, we have this and that, but what are we really? What education are we really providing for our students? And what is our ultimate goal? So we've got us a face to face, but God is virtual, for God's sake, US me coaching another teacher, I think the main takeaway is, how can we ensure that we are providing the best learning experience for our students, and we are allowing their voices to be heard and every aspect of the curriculum, they should be able to see themselves in everything that they do, and their voices should be heard and represented from brick to click? Right. Yeah.

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So quick.

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Tiffany, Joel had the same question or a similar question that I was going to answer. And I just really appreciate your realistic and also hopeful perspective on what's coming up and how we all need to kind of face this as it comes. But together, banding together, I just really appreciate that perspective that you have. Thank you. Thank you. Our last question usually is where do you turn for resources? If you need any? Do you have any pieces of advice where you go for like tasks or other kinds of resources? Not really. I rarely turn to the education community, I say which most people are doing. I really late like I attended a week long conference. I'm not sure if you heard of unbound Ed, but they really focus on mission statement. It's really focused on learning that is grounded in the intersection of standards, content aligned curriculum, instruction and equity. And I think it's just huge to really add in that equity lens. And as you can see, because I am an urban educator equity is very big for me. So right now on bat unbound, excuse me, Ed has been my go to for resources, but also OC tm, which is our Ohio Council of Teachers of Mathematics. They have offered Amazing, amazing PD this summer, that have really helped to shift my thinking more and to aid and support for my teachers. But I think Yeah, the typical resources that we all use as educators that's out there on the internet, the nctm and Koren, Koren books, Betty's that's another one, I just did productive mass struggle with the actual authors. And that has been amazing. So I just try to stay a tune. So the mathematical community just get new insights and new resources. And I try to share whatever I learned to my colleagues and also to my teachers, and of course, my department. We are a team of 18. So that is a lot of resources within itself. So we are really open and we share we collaborate together. And that's the same advice that I will offer to even teachers, you have to stop working in silos. You have to open your doors, or in this case, your virtual platform, and allow teachers to be a part of the conversation and to really meet together to

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to debrief together to ask questions and to work collectively, because if you're still trying to work in a silo, you're not going to be successful moving forward. While in that spirit, I want to thank you for opening your virtual door to us today so we could see a little bit into your world. And

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I've just gonna close us out. Now, I want to thank everybody for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. Be sure to subscribe. We hope you're able to implement something that you just heard, and take an opportunity to interact with other math teacher educators. Hello, listeners of the tg math teaching podcast, we have some big news. Are you ready? The teaching math teaching podcast is starting a summer book club. What better way to grow as teachers of math teachers and to engage in some professional learning together, and we would love for you to join us. In June we're gonna be reading rough draft math revising to learn by Amanda Johnson. In July, we are reading high school mathematics lessons to explore, understand and respond to social injustice by Robert berry bazel Conway, Brian Lawler, john Staley and colleagues. The plan for the book club is to read the book throughout the month and host weekly interactions on Twitter and Instagram around the chapters for the week. At the end of each month, we will have a podcast that discusses what we learned from the book and how we can apply what we learned to improving how we teach math teachers. We also might be joined by some authors. In short, we are excited we hope you are as well. Follow us on social media at teach math teach on Twitter and at teaching math teaching on Instagram to stay up to date on how to participate in the teaching math teaching summer book club. Thanks again. As always, for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast follow us on Instagram and Twitter. And we hope that you're able to implement something that you hear in the podcast and take an opportunity like this summer book club to interact with other math teacher educators.