Dustin Jones: Hello, everyone and thank you for listening to the teaching, math teaching, Podcast, the teaching math, teaching, podcast is sponsored by the association of mathematics, teacher, educators, a community of mathematics, teacher, educators, learning to teach math teachers better. I'm your Co. Host, Dusty Jones, and joining me to day is Co. Host, Jen Wolf. Hi, Jen.


Jennifer A. Wolfe: Hi, good to be with everyone today.


Dustin Jones: Thanks. Jen, and also Co. Host, Joel Amadon. Hey, Joel.

Joel Amidon (he/him/his): hey! Dusty

Dustin Jones: to day? We are talking with Doctor Sarah bush. Sarah is a professor of K. 12, stem education, and Lockheed Martin, eminent scholar chair in the School of Teacher Education at the University of Central Florida. She has held a number of leadership roles at her institution and within national mathematics, Education community.
including serving as a member of the Board of Directors for the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics from 20 to 19 to 2022. We're excited to talk with Sarah today for a number of reasons, including her writing for the Nctm. Catalyzing change series, and also, what her doctoral students are up to in a nois grant. Titled empowering stem teachers with earned. Doctorates.
Hi, Sarah! How are you.

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Sarah Bush: hey? Dusty? Thank you all so much for having me today. I'm I'm so excited to talk with you and Jen and Joel. Great we are! We are still thrilled to have you

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Dustin Jones: Can you take a minute to introduce yourself a little bit beyond what I've already shared. What did we miss?

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Sarah Bush: Well, I mean, I feel like you shared. I shared a lot and you know, I think you're currently you know I'm at the University of Central Florida, and I'm actually kind of in a new role partially in a new role. I am directing the Lockheed Martin Ucf. Mathematics and Science Academy at Ucf, which is so exciting. And basically what the Academy does is through an endowment. It provides tuition

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Sarah Bush: for experienced teachers to earn their masters in Kate Math and science. Ed, through our our master's program. And then also we have a transition to mathematics and science teaching career changers program that focuses on those becoming middle and high school math and science teachers. So, and all this work is, you know, very heavily focused on title one school. So you know, I'm kind of excited because I'm in this new role this year, and that's been

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Sarah Bush: different and challenging and good ways and excited, and I'm you know, grateful for that opportunity. And then otherwise at Ucf, you know, I'm currently still coordinating our math. Ed. Phd. Program our mass at track of our Phd.

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Sarah Bush: And that brings in so many amazing great students from all different backgrounds. And then, like you mentioned, I have our noise track 3 and I'm also currently working on an I use. And just, you know, spending a lot of my time mentoring and learning from our Doc students and our master students. So basically, I kind of feel like, I'm just

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Sarah Bush: living the dream I get to be in some of these leadership roles. But they're really

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Dustin Jones: centered and grounded in math. Ed and Stem Ed, which is the space I love to be in. So that's really exciting. That's really exciting.

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Dustin Jones: So how did you start teaching math teachers? And then also, why did you start teaching math teachers?

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Sarah Bush: Yeah, that's a great question. So

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Sarah Bush: I mean, probably some of the typical things. But I've been listening to a lot of the podcasts. And so I've I've learned that there's so many different paths that people take. So I I'm gonna say, there's probably not a typical path, but my path.

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Sarah Bush: Was II loved learning. I loved math, I love teaching. I was a middle school math teacher in a public middle school but II don't think I was really born to always do the the same

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Sarah Bush: thing for a really, really long time. It's just not in my spirit. I really like to to do and seek new experiences. And I also really wanted to learn more, and I wanted to have a broader impact. So somewhere around the beginning of my fourth year of teaching I had my Master's degree, and I went back to my own undergrad adviser. He was kind of like a a legend in our region. He's retired now. His name's Bill Janssky.

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Sarah Bush: His kind of claim to fame as he had for the longest time. And maybe it's still true. Today he had contributed the most calendar problems to Nctm, mathematics teacher, remember the calendar problems in there? So he, yeah, he's just like an amazing guy. But I told him, I like, I wanna do your job like how do I do that? And

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Sarah Bush: so he had recommended 2 people for me to talk to, because I really didn't want to move. I lived in Southern Indiana, kind of near Louisville, Kentucky, at the time, and he recommended that I talked to Karen Karp at U. Of L. And then he recommended someone else, and him and Karen had worked together at Ius for several years, which is where I did my undergrad.

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Sarah Bush: So main appointment with Karen and she was department chair at the time. So it was like very scary when I went there, because there was like an office with her admin before you could actually get to her office, and then she was a New Yorker. So you know, I'm from the Midwest, where everyone's like the pleasant trees are all there, and she was like, you need to do this, and you need to do this. And if you had this we might accept it. That's exactly how she was. She was very kind, but I like she was very strong, and I was a little terrified to be honest. But

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Sarah Bush: I left their thinking. I'm scared, but I think I gotta do this, and I gotta study with her. And that was really it. So I did all the things she told me to do, and I got my doctorate at U. Of L. And I did that while being a full-time teacher.

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Sarah Bush: And I it was such a great experience, because I mean I wouldn't recommend it on the balancing of life scale.

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Sarah Bush: But it was so great to take what I was learning in my graduate work and and do it the next day in my classroom as a middle school teacher, and the whole thing changed my life. You know, working with Karen, changed my life, getting my doctorate working with all the amazing faculty and my, you know, fellow documents at U of L. When I was there changed my life, and then from there

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Sarah Bush: I worked as a professor at Bellerman University, which is a private institution in Mobile, where I was an assistant professor, associate, professor, and associate Dean for a while, and then I made my move to Ucf.

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Sarah Bush: And that's kind of my story.

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Dustin Jones: Great. That's an exciting story, and and I agree with what you said. I.

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Dustin Jones: I hear your story, and I think oh, that's how I did it. So that's typical route. But having talked with a lot of other people, there's there's not a typical route.

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Dustin Jones: So that's that's good

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Dustin Jones: to acknowledge that. What's the best advice that you received when you started teaching math teachers.

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Sarah Bush: Well, I I've received a lot of advice, but you know I you know, having Karen as a mentor, I kinda had the opportunity to learn how to teach elementary math methods from. You know, the author of the Vander Wall books. So I feel kind of feel like I got all the advice.

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Sarah Bush: but I think it's a big takeaway, you know, just modeling what? Taking the idea of having to modeling model what you're teaching seriously is so important, so important to model what you say needs to be done in the classroom.

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Sarah Bush:  and you're just learning learning with your your students, but I think trying to always enter a conversation or situation, you know, with care and compassion, you know, having high expectations, but grounded and very intentional supports.

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Sarah Bush: not making assumptions about the knowledge and experience people bring. Those are kind of all the things I went into it. Going straight from really the middle school classroom to a faculty position was was kind of my route. But

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Sarah Bush:  But you know I was able to do that. I had good mentorship. And I was able kind of to leverage those experiences, but really outside of actually teaching math teachers more just navigating the land and the landscape of higher Ed, I mean, I was also given lots of good advice.

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Sarah Bush: you know you have to navigate carefully, you know. Sometimes you

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Sarah Bush: you know, when you're a new faculty member, you often get asked to do things, and some of them are not good uses of your time or not. Things you need to be doing, but you know I was taught. Get your chair to say no for you, you know, when you're brand new some of those strategies.

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Sarah Bush: you know we joke, you know, following the rules of kindergarten to not to get dragged into drama and things like that. And then the other thing. I was told that I think was very valuable to me.

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Sarah Bush: Was, make your Cv. For the job you may want. Someday, not not necessarily the job you currently have. And I remember being told that before I even had my first job and and Bellerman wasn't a basic place to work.

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Sarah Bush: But you know, really make your Cv. For the the job you might want. So you just have any option that you you kind of want. And I've really kind of stuck by that my whole career, and I'm still sticking by that

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Sarah Bush: And so I those were some of the pieces of advice I was given. II had plenty of advice.

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Dustin Jones: That's exciting. Yeah.

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I

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Dustin Jones: there's so many of those we could unpack. I don't. I was scribbling furiously. There. Yeah, getting your chair to say no for you. That's

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Dustin Jones: I guess that's partly dependent on your chair. But yeah, there's a lot of different things. Well, that is so true. I did have a good chair. The other one, I was told, was

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Sarah Bush: so like when you're you know, when you're a new faculty member. If someone comes up to you and tells you like how great you did on something, or they thank you for something, you know you can jokingly, but but sort of seriously say, you know, don't tell me. Tell my boss like kind of a another one, I was told at 1 point, and that was a little harder to put into practice. But

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Sarah Bush: yeah, I was. I'm so grateful because I was given so much advice, because navigating, you know, teaching is one thing, cause we can apply what we did as a teacher. Often, if we were in one of those pathways to our higher Ed teaching, but navigating all the other things in higher. Ed. It's kind of a different beast. And so I was fortunate to be given really good advice.

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Dustin Jones: Yeah, that's great.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: It's really solid advice, like, I'm just sitting with the Cv one right now, and just thinking about how there's like possibilities of like dreaming of where you want to go and setting that pathway. And it just made me think about

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Recently, Joel had a a podcast session with Dorothy white and thinking about full professor and going that track. So just thinking about what are those kind of like? Maybe not little things. But it's making me think about just little shifts I can make in my thinking towards like goal making. And later, maybe, we'll talk a little bit about Sarah. You've had so many leadership positions. So just also thinking about, like, what are the different advice you have, and

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: and like moving towards that, I could see you dreaming about. This is where I want to go, and you've been able to kind of carve that path out while also thinking about how can you uplift others

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: as you're going on that path. So I really appreciate you sharing that advice out with our audience.

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Sarah Bush: Thanks, Jen.

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Sarah Bush: I'm just so glad to spend an hour with you. I know it's so much fun. I was just thinking back to how like, yeah, the first time, actually dusty. And I met because of a leadership role you took in the in Ctm program committee. So it's kinda nice to to be back in community with you all I remember so much about that. It was such a fun couple of years working with both of you on that. It's just like the best best memories are so much fun.

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Dustin Jones: Yeah, I enjoy that a lot, too.

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Dustin Jones: Sarah. What's a word or a phrase, or a quote, or something that is good for audio format. That helps you center the work that you do in teaching math teachers.

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Sarah Bush: You know, I thought about this a lot. Cause I know you. You kinda were kind enough to give me some lead time on thinking about these things, but

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Sarah Bush: you know mainly my current work for the past few years have been focused on our doctoral masters programs. And so I work quite a bit with future researchers, math teacher leaders, instructional coaches, district leaders. Admin

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Sarah Bush: it's a one quote that I love to use. I probably over quoted it. Is in Nctm's principles to actions on page 61. I've used it so much. I've memorized it. But the quote is, the question is not whether all students can succeed in mathematics, but whether the adults, organizing mathematical learning opportunities, can alter traditional beliefs and practices to promote success for all.

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Sarah Bush: And I love that quote so much. Because I think so often we get so deeply intertwined in our day to day work, and how things have always been

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Sarah Bush: that it's easy to get trapped into the into

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Sarah Bush: to set ways of thinking. And so I just absolutely love that quote.

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Dustin Jones: Yeah.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: I love that one, too. And you have the the page memorized. So that's on them. Oh, can we put that on a sticker and put on my water bottle, and then, like anytime, I feel like I'm I'm veering off the path right like I go back to that quote and think about what's my purpose? Because a math teacher educator is an educator. What is my purpose?

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Dustin Jones: Yeah, I was having a conversation with some colleagues from a different department last week, but they were asking about, you know.

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Dustin Jones: my students in in particular subject. They just don't understand the math. What's happening at the grade school level. What's happening at the high school level?

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Dustin Jones: That's a great quote. It's it's it's not whether the students can succeed. But those other things that

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Dustin Jones: the, you know

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Dustin Jones: that we are trying to impact for positive for the students, whether we put the mirror back on us right like, hey, what what am I doing? How am I creating an environment that my students could be successful in?

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Joel Amidon (he/him/his): And yeah, it's I like, when I was first challenged on that. When you know when you're a new teacher, or even a new teacher of teachers, and it's like, No, well, what are you doing? And it's like, Oh, wait a second. You know, this isn't. This isn't on them. This is this is my job as a teacher to create an environment for them to be successful. Yeah. Yup.

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Sarah Bush: awesome love that I love that using Apa citations for this podcast episode, that we got the page number for the record.

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Dustin Jones: That's a way to ensure that you quoted it correctly. So that's good. So, Sarah, you talked a lot about lots of different pieces of advice that you've received. What? Maybe, in addition to those things, what advice would you give to someone starting out as a math teacher? Educator?

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Sarah Bush: Yeah. You know, I've thought about this a lot, and

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Sarah Bush: you know, I again, we kind of talked about this, but on the surface it might appear that what we do as math teacher educators

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Sarah Bush: is kind of parallel to the K 12 teacher. You know, we we plan and we grade. And we mentor our students. We have relationships with them. And we talk about math and all those things. But really you learn really quickly that you also kind of develop this new identity as a math teacher, educator

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Sarah Bush: that has these other aspects like readers like leadership and research and service admin duties, whether they're kind of informal or formal. And then, you know, there's also this really important advocacy component that once you're in a space

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Sarah Bush: that that a math teacher educator's afforded to be in, you're also kind of serving as a advocate for our field.

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Sarah Bush: And so I think one piece of advice is, you know, for someone coming into this role. It's just kind of giving yourself some space and grace as you grow into that it it takes a while. I'm still learning

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Sarah Bush: and then I think, as you're doing that really kind of finding a path that works for you and be open to not even knowing what is possible for you. You know, when I think about this is, I believe, my thirteenth year as a faculty member, and so, if you were to ask me my first year, my second, fifth, or even like 3 years ago, what I would be be doing today, I would not have predicted what I'm doing today.

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Sarah Bush:  and then I think the big thing that's worked well for me.

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Sarah Bush: I'm not sure how, but

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Sarah Bush: you know, I think, working very intentionally. But you paint the story of how, like all the stars in your work align

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Sarah Bush: and for me, sometimes it kind of just happens serendipitously. But, like you tell your story, it's not what's you know. You decide how that story's told, and what I've kind of learned is

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Sarah Bush: as as my work in seemingly different facets grows, they really inform each other.

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Sarah Bush: and that knowledge you kind of gain over time. I don't really think it's additive to me. It's been exponential.

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Sarah Bush: So for me in the last few years this is an example. All this catalyzing change work I did

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Sarah Bush: so heavily. You're gonna see in a minute connects to my noise, Grant, and all of that connects so heavily to this kind of math pack work we've been doing.

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Sarah Bush: And all these efforts kind of focus on a system level approach for equitable, just and inclusive math programs.

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Sarah Bush: You know, for example, our math packware kind of revised organizational frame. And then this for the past decade, kind of off to the side, but not really. I've been heavily involved in integrated stem and steam work, but that's really in service of being a gateway like mathematics being a gateway to stem and steam.

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Sarah Bush: But all that's part of catalyzing change, too. So to me, when I think of my story, these different arms in my work are not separate projects. They're kind of like the nexus of my advocacy work, research, leadership, service teaching kind of all fits together. So I think when you can find yourself in a place where all your lines start to get blurred. That's the sweet spot.

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Sarah Bush: and that's really where I think the transdisciplinary learning and the exponential growth like, and learning really occurs.

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Sarah Bush: So I think my advice would be. you know you set the tone of your own story, and you determine how those pieces fit together, but

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Sarah Bush: also, re, you know, work to recognize when kind of authentic or organic opportunities present themselves to you.

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Sarah Bush: to where things might kind of grow exponentially in your learning. And you know, in your work

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Dustin Jones: I like that a lot.

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Dustin Jones:  you're making me think about my story. And this is this is not a podcast. About me. No, III don't have more dusty. No, I

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Dustin Jones: I'm not really sure. What?

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Dustin Jones: I don't have. I don't have coherent thoughts. That's why I'm stumbling through here. But I really like the advice of you. Set the tone for your own story. This seems like something I would need to go and and reflect on you know. Get a comfortable chair, you know, a comfortable

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Dustin Jones: beverage or something like that. Maybe comfortable is not the word for that. But sit and sit and think about this for a while. You know. Journal about it. What what does this look like.

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Dustin Jones: you know? Maybe. Look at my Cv, think about what I want to do.

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Dustin Jones: yeah.

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Joel Amidon (he/him/his): Well, and Sarah, just it sounds like, like, you know not to

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Joel Amidon (he/him/his): be, be it have a pun or whatever here, but like it, sounds like the work on catalyzing change was almost like a catalyzing moment

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Joel Amidon (he/him/his): for things to happen. And like, I just just give everything like. I wonder what each of us would say is our catalyz, like our catalyzing moments, or things like that that have, you know.

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Joel Amidon (he/him/his): just led to development, but then also to like thinking like before, like, then how can you shape those experiences cause like, there's other opportunities that can happen. But thinking about, like, yeah, what is that story that that you're trying to develop throughout? But

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Sarah Bush: I know that you said it much more eloquently than I did. So I think that's exactly it, though, like we do have these, I do think these catalyzing opportunities present themselves. It might be.

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Sarah Bush: You know you might be a new faculty member and someone at your institution more senior. Ask if you want to join them on a grant application, and you never. You definitely shouldn't say yes to everything. But you never know what could end up being just a really pivotal opportunity. So you gotta think about those opportunities really carefully when they're presented to you.

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Sarah Bush: So II think you're absolutely right. We all have these kind of catalyzing moments that shape that shape us? Yeah.

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Dustin Jones: So, Sarah, as it's been mentioned, you do lots of things, and you do a lot of things. Well, how do you set boundaries and priorities to get the right things done and still enjoy your life.

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Sarah Bush: Well, I'm definitely still figuring that one out. But I do have some strategies that I think help

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Sarah Bush: so things. I think what I think about a lot of things move so fast, our things flying our inbox so fast we get opportun. You know. Things come our way. There's so much work to be done in our field

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Sarah Bush: that it's endless. The the job is never done. But

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Sarah Bush: one thing I try to always remember is everything you say. Yes, to has essentially, by default has the opportunity cost of saying no to something else.

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Sarah Bush: And so I think what I try to do as a general practice is, say yes to things that are good, fit, and that I want to do, and you, as time goes on, you have a little more wiggle room to to do that.

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Sarah Bush: You know the. But even so, that kind of formula doesn't work perfectly all the time. because there'll always be some things that come up at unexpected times. We're gonna talk about one of those in a minute that you just can't pass up, and you just have to figure out how to make it work.

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Sarah Bush: And then another thing I think helps me is I've gotten. I've worked hard over time to learn to really trust my gut.

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Sarah Bush: and so something doesn't feel right. Either. The project to fit to me, the the people doing the project, whatever it is. If it doesn't feel right or comfortable.

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Sarah Bush: I just have to reflect and say, if it doesn't feel right, it's not.

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Sarah Bush: and the reason might be me. Who knows what the reason is? But if it's the gut check, you know, if it's not right, then it's not right, and I need to find a way out.

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Sarah Bush: And you know if your newer faculty member, often finding your way out, is your leadership, helping you navigate that or a mentor or a career sponsor helping you navigate that. But

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Sarah Bush: our work is such a big part of our life that I think it is. It's so critical that it's work we're making sure we're doing work that we're passionate about.

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Sarah Bush: But of course I get burnout

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Sarah Bush: you know, I mean, like I think everyone else. Maybe not. But I think everyone else like there are days that II don't wanna talk method. You know, II don't wanna text or email, or talk or read math. Ed. You know, I just wanna you know, be outside or take a nap or be with my pups, or, you know, binge, watch a show, eat some good food, and I think that's really really important to just compartmentalize. And I have been able to do better with that over time.

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Dustin Jones: That's good for the viewers at home for the listeners at home. Everybody was nodding along when you said. There are times when you just don't want to do math. Ed. So those of you who are sitting there thinking. Wait! If I signed into a, you know, 24, 7 type of thing. It doesn't have to be that way. And I think

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Dustin Jones: everyone we've asked this question has has talked about setting a time. setting aside time to do other things

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Dustin Jones: besides just the job, because

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Dustin Jones: we are not robots. So that's good.

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Sarah Bush: We are not robots. Tell myself that every day it's hard.

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Dustin Jones: So, Sarah, tell us some about your experiences on the Nctm. Board. What was it like to be nominated to get elected to serve.

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Sarah Bush: Yeah, so this was all before the pandemic. So my memory is a little fuzzy but

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Dustin Jones: does other people have a problem. Or is that just me? I feel like, no, I had. I had a different life. And then there was 2020, and then, now we're in that second part. I feel like we're always adding, like 2 or 3 years to how long ago something was because we're the time kind of went through that. Yeah.

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Sarah Bush: So

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Sarah Bush: you know, I don't remember much about the nomination part, but my first kind of main memory was, you know, I definitely had a little nervousness around the election and then I remember just a little bit, and I remember

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Sarah Bush: I was actually called and notified that I was elected to the board during the Nctm. Regional and Kansas City.

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Sarah Bush: So that was very exciting cause I was with call, you know, I was with colleagues and friends. And so that was exciting. But my nervousness wasn't really about whether or not I would be elected. It was more about I was okay with that either way. I mean, that's just part of running for things like this. Right? But I was more nervous if I was elected like, did I deserve to be in this space. So it's really like the typical imposter syndrome things that we're kicking in.

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Sarah Bush: But that was definitely where my nervousness was that, and also, I think, for many of us, or at least for me, like sometimes I have it just a nervousness around a not knowing, you know, the unknown of what's gonna happen. And

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Sarah Bush: and if it did happen, you know, it's gonna be a big part of your life, for in my case, 3 and a half years. So that was kind of where that was coming from. But I will say once that happened, and then I was elected.

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Sarah Bush: I don't know what to say other than really it was a. It's a once in a lifetime experience, you know. I got to do it for 3 and a half years because they had moved the annual meeting. So our class, our board class we're sure 4 of us. Got to do 3 and a half year term because of that change.

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Sarah Bush: And you know why I've had other leadership roles. I think I'll say it was just such an intensive learning and growth experience

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Sarah Bush: definitely like the best professional development I've ever had in my life.

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Sarah Bush: and really just those that I had the opportunity to serve with on the board at the same time, which ends up being almost 20 people, because you're on a rotating cycle and the staff. It was just such like an honor and just joy to work with them. And of course it was. It was very challenging, and, you know, stressful and tenants high stakes at different times, but I just wouldn't trade it

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Sarah Bush: and to me, you know, to think I've already I've been able to do that, and

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Sarah Bush: I've had all that learning

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Sarah Bush: and I'm gonna just be able to carry that with me for the rest of my career, like it's just such a gift that I'll cherish but really just being able to serve our field in that way is was just so so great. So it was just a great experience.

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Dustin Jones: Great

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Dustin Jones: as a I think, as a part of that, or maybe after that I don't know. You chaired the task force and served as a lead writer for the catalyzing change in middle school mathematics, initiating critical conversations. Tell us more about the task force the origin goals, expected impacts

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Dustin Jones: at whatever you want to talk about that.

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Sarah Bush: Yeah, sure. So II don't even really check over to start with this. But

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Sarah Bush: you know, just as a little back story. So before I was on the Nct. Board. You know. They released the High School volume accounts and change in 2,018,

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Sarah Bush: and I started my board term in 2019. So they were working on this, you know, so far before I was on the board. And you know the calendar change books kind of like principals to action or principles and standards for school mathematics. Those are official positions of the Council. So they're the they're a little different than just other Nctm books that get published

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Sarah Bush: anyways. After the High School volume was released, as you could imagine, there was kind of this realization and push that if we're gonna make these 4 key recommendations for high school

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Sarah Bush: we really need keys and change guidance and early childhood, elementary and middle. Because, you know, that's so important. We can't just magically things, you know, happen in high school.

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Sarah Bush: And so the Board had approved before I was on the board, and elementary early childhood, elementary and middle school volume. To be published under what I am going to personally say. Is the tightest timeline like in time, basically in time for the 2020 Nctm. Annual meeting.

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Sarah Bush: which happened to be the hundredth anniversary, the Centennial, the whole thing. So, to make a long story short, Robert Barry calls me, you know, and asks me, offers me the opportunity to contribute in this way as task force, chair and Writing Team League for the Middle School volume.

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Sarah Bush: and he was so kind, he said I could think about it. But I think all of us in this room probably know, like it's one of those things that you don't say no to. And also I mean, how do you tell Robert Berry know? And so

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Sarah Bush: next thing you know, I'm like. got this new thing to do. So

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Sarah Bush: and it's really important thing. And so, you know, that's what I was kind of mentioning earlier. Sometimes unexpected opportunities happen, and you you just have to say yes and figure it out.

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Sarah Bush: So so even so it long, you know, kind of moving on. So basically, Bob was definitely caught off guard.

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Sarah Bush: And I'm certainly intimidated by the scope of work. You know. I knew that I had had several past leadership experiences that kind of required this like large scale, long term, orchestration of this like task and

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Sarah Bush: building a team. And I was already kind of thinking about how I might be able to apply those experiences to kind of this new charge. The early childhood elementary was happening at the same time Dan Hinker was leading the task force share for that one

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Sarah Bush: and she was already a board member. I was getting ready to start my term on the board, but I hadn't yet, and so we quickly kind of assembled Nctm. Quickly kind of assembled writing teams for each book.

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Sarah Bush: for the middle school. Krista Jackson, George Roy, and Eric Milo were the the middle school riders with me, and then we kind of had like a launch meeting at the 2019 and Ctm. And then we had a follow up and rest in. But

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Sarah Bush: really the best way I could. Just think to describe it. cause. If you imagine kind of writing a policy document on 50 50, not the right number. I'm making this up in the moment, but like 50 subtopics.

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Sarah Bush: and having to like synthesize literature and research on each into seamless book. But then also making sure you're lining seamlessly the recommendations and everything being sent early childhood, elementary volume, which is still being written at the same time, and then the High School volume.

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Sarah Bush: So the Middle School is kind of sandwich in the middle.

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Sarah Bush: And you will had to do that in, like, you know, a couple of months it was. It was wild. I don't remember that summer? But it was the most amazing team of you know, board staff writer, everyone. And

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Sarah Bush: the really nice saying was Nctm, you know, we just we got a draft. Nctm. Sent it out to 30. I don't even know how many reviewers a ton of reviewers.

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Sarah Bush: And really

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Sarah Bush: we knew, you know. Obviously, at that point the the product still needed a lot of work, but we were just so grateful for the massive and incredible feedback we received, and

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Sarah Bush: then from there. And if you've ever written a policy document or or been on a a committee for a position statement or something, you kind of probably have experienced this. You kind of sift through all the comments you synthesize them. You look for themes. I mean, I'm like making phone calls, getting advice from like the expert on this sub topic and that subtopic. We're working through it all. And

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Sarah Bush: I mean, really, I think all of us, that that were part of the writing team will just be forever like grateful for everyone. That kind of helped us get this paragraph just right, or this or that, and because it's really complicated. And

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Sarah Bush: you know, it was just such an amazing experience.

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Sarah Bush: You know, and it kind of all culminated after these reviews and revision, and then we kind of had a writing retreat to kind of tie it all up. And it's so funny because Dean and I actually saw each other last week at Nctm. And we were reminiscing about this like writing retreat at the end, which consisted of us and Robert and and Trina and Dave Barnes, and

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Sarah Bush: we were talking about everything we learned from that writing retreat and that we're still using with us today. We have specifically remembered something. David taught us, that thought would be so fun to share in this podcast which is.

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Sarah Bush: you know, often in our research writing, we learn to like, make our case with supporting research, and then pack a punch at the end with, like your big point.

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Sarah Bush: And you know, Dave kind of taught us no, in a policy document. You make your big point first, and you lead with that, and then you like, have your supporting paragraph. And so it was just fun to kind of reminisce with Deanne on everything we learned, but really for anyone that hasn't had a chance to take a look yet. The nice thing across the the 3 books is we have 4 key recommendations

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Sarah Bush: that you can kind of that that are seamless across the 3 grade bands.

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Sarah Bush: But the nice thing is is, they are unique for that great band.

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Sarah Bush: So across all 3 titles, broadening the purposes of learning, mathematics is the first recommendation, but that looks different and early childhood elementary in the middle and high, and so forth. And then, you know the creating equitable structures, the equitable instruction in the deep mathematical learning. And so, you know, I think if I had kind of

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Sarah Bush: one takeaway for all of this is, you know, the purpose of catalyzing change is really  kind of to take some of the things we we've known from the field that has been in the research been to other policy documents, and to provide kind of a synthesis

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Sarah Bush: on recommendations. For all stakeholders. Involved in math education, kind of centering on ensuring access to high quality and equitable, just inclusive math programs for every student. So how can schools, district states, universities, community groups, regional centers?

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Sarah Bush: Teacher prep programs. Everyone kind of

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Sarah Bush: really seek this common goal.

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Sarah Bush: and if I had kind of one dream for its impact, it's really for us as a field and for K. 12, mathematics and schools, you know, really to move from like these pockets of excellence

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Sarah Bush: to the system of excellence. So, in other words, there's no more like

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Sarah Bush: kind of winning the math lottery experience, for maybe, you know, Jen has had this great, positive, impactful, deep learning experience in math. And I've had this like disconnected gatekeeper, noncoherent experience. And dusty is over here, having this experience and Joel's having that experience.

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Sarah Bush: but really us recognizing as a field that our system so deeply rooted.

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Sarah Bush: And

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Sarah Bush: you know. privileging some marginalizing many and kind of inequitable structures, and acknowledging that and acting on that

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Sarah Bush: and being advocates is so essential. So you're kind of. I want us as a field to start thinking in more of a systems way.

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Sarah Bush: As teachers, we were, you know, historically, you know, often taught to go in our classrooms and teach is very much like a solo endeavor. But we really have to move towards that. What principals to actions talks about is that collective shared responsibility for student success

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Sarah Bush: and really building those equitable systems. So I know that was a very long response.

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Sarah Bush: but hope that answers your question. Yeah, yeah, it does.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: And speaking of impacts, too, there's another book that came out recently around catalyzing change the success stories. Can you talk a little bit about that, Sarah? Yeah, that's that was so much fun. So, Karen Graham. There were 4 of us that edited that book, Karen Graham, who was a lead writer for the high school catalyzing change she was. She kind of led our charge. And then Dean and Robert and I. We basically had the opportunity. It was such a great opportunity to solicit chapters

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Sarah Bush: from the field of success. Stories of people implementing different components of Cali change either in their district statewide, their school. and.

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Sarah Bush: you know, a different kind of levels of implementation. And so

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Sarah Bush: we really just it was such a great experience working with each of the authors, and you know, in acting, catalyzing change in their setting. It was just. It was so great we learned so much. The Nctm. Publish that book. Again. I'm having a little bit of a time. War, but I believe it was

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Sarah Bush: about a a year. Yes, it was about a year ago. Yes, so you know, definitely, if you're engaged in this work or no, people that are seeing those stories from it's just is really great, because, you know, policy document is very different from stories on the ground. And so we thought the stories on the ground was the next step

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Dustin Jones: that's that's really cool. Follow up. And and you know it's you've got different audiences, slightly different stories. But still this related theme. This reminds me of your earlier advice about kind of building these things and making those connections among those different, those different things that you've done.

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Dustin Jones:  I've heard a little bit about your noise track 3 grant empowering teachers with earned doctorates. It sounds exciting.

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Dustin Jones: talk about. Can you talk about getting a noise, grant what that is. Maybe some of our listeners would be interested in that. But also Hugh mentioned earlier, you could talk about your fellows a lot. So I'd like to hear about them as well.

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Sarah Bush: Absolutely and yes, we adore our fellows so I can't wait to talk about them in just a second. But yeah, a National Science foundation noise, Grant?

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Sarah Bush: I don't have the actual language in front of me to say it. Probably exactly right. But basically, you know, it is to build up our math and science teaching workforce.

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Sarah Bush: You know, they have 4 tracks. The first 2 are focused more on newer teachers of math and science. But we have a track. 3 which is the master teacher, fellowship track. So we're working with experienced teachers and I could say so much about them. But really, you know, our track 3 came about after the start of the pandemic

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Sarah Bush: we were tasked by our I believe our Dean, maybe and our school director at the time, who ended up being a copi for a while on our grant, Malcolm Butler. He's now a dean at Unc. Charlotte now, but anyways.

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Sarah Bush: we were supposed to be thinking about how to increase our graduate enrollment, and so Julie Dixon and I,

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Sarah Bush: you know, ended up kind of thinking. Well,

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Sarah Bush: you know, launching a doctorate for K. 8 math teachers

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Sarah Bush: might be that Avenue, and we were both so personally excited about it. You know I was excited because I had just got done writing this catalyzing change book, and I hadn't been in schools a lot recently because of the pandemic and not being, you know, allowed to get into schools. And I also was like man. I just did all this

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Sarah Bush: change working. I learned all this stuff, and I need to like be doing this work deeply. Been this work. And you know it just didn't. It didn't feel right that, you know I didn't have a big project focused on this, and and Julie, with all of her work in schools and districts for so long her amazing market. To me. I think this is very much a career.

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Sarah Bush:  you know, felt right for her, too, and then we kind of enlisted Lisa Brooks, who was a former elementary school teacher, leader, and coach, who's like a total pro

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Sarah Bush: she's a lecturer at Ucf, and then Brian Moore in our math department. He's just an amazing mathematician and humans. So we propose a noise track 3.

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Sarah Bush: And it was different because we focused on our math teacher leaders earning doctorates and

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Sarah Bush: we actually searched the noise database prior to submitting to see how many other math Ed focus projects there were that resulted in a doctorate

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Sarah Bush: and there we couldn't find any at the time. There might be other ones now. So we were excited like, so excited to submit. And so we did, and then we were funded

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Sarah Bush: and our goals. You know, we're really to work with our large urban district kind of focus on cataly to catalyze change through.

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Sarah Bush: You know, developing teacher leadership. You know, and just an overall kind of mindset. So basically our fellows. Oh, my gosh! So our fellows are 14 k. 8 math teachers in our large urban district here in Orlando, which has more than 200,000 students, Orange County public schools. It's the eighth largest district in the country.

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Sarah Bush: We just have the best partnership with Ocps as well as our nonprofit partners, city year, Orlando.

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Sarah Bush: But our fellows are all current full time teachers either elementary school, and they all teach math. But we have a few elementary primary teachers that teach all subjects. We have some intermediate teachers either teach all subjects, or teach

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Sarah Bush: mainly math or math and science, and then we have middle school math teachers.

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Sarah Bush: and they're in the third year of their program now. So we're in the third year of our noise project. So they are. We are now, got 14 dissertations going.

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Sarah Bush: and all of them are lying to the catalyzing change framework. Focused in their district. And I mean, we

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Sarah Bush: we just adore them. They are doing the most amazing work. We I don't know how to describe it.

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Sarah Bush: but the community we've had we have developed with our fellows has honestly been like, like honestly, one of the most special things about my whole career so far, and I think we can. We are all saying that the whole investigator team, like we adore them. We think, you know, we feel that that's probably mutual, although we know they're exhausted.

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Sarah Bush: we built this like such a great community like, I honestly just wanna like bottle it up forever. But I will say the impact they're having is teacher leaders in their school and district like they are just these powerful advocates for students, for all students, for their colleagues.

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Sarah Bush: And you know just about doing what is right.

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Sarah Bush: And

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Sarah Bush: we've learned so much from them. We're just so proud of them. And the cool thing is they're really starting to find their voices and leading beyond Central Florida. Just last week at Nctm. Like some of 2 of them, did a keynote in Ncsm. Some others presented it. Ncm, a couple of them were chosen for this like speaking mentoring program.

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Sarah Bush: I mean, it's just been like the the best thing. But if we look at a kind of what we've learned so far from our data and our key takeaway. One thing we've really learned that I think, could be applied to any project that any of us are doing

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Sarah Bush: is that feeling valued matters

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Sarah Bush: as our fellows are valued in their setting in their roles, and they're they build their confidence in their leadership. like all the excitement around the project and their work as teacher leaders, is just kind of flourished

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Sarah Bush: and I think that comes with the confidence that feeling valued brings, but also other seeing them as leaders. And so what we really learning what we're really learning is as busy as we are, and how much we have going on that really ensuring our fellows, we are celebrating and elevating their voices at every turn, whether that be through a news article or press, release or school board announcements, or the website, or

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Sarah Bush: whatever it is like, all those efforts are so worth it, because on a bigger picture, what I think we're doing is we're critically working to kind of counteract negative stereotypes

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Sarah Bush: about teaching and working towards professionalizing to the public, the stem teaching profession which again really embodies

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Sarah Bush: noise at its core.

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Sarah Bush:  so you know, I actually listen. Listening to melissa Adams Corral's podcast that you all did recently. 

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Sarah Bush: and like they are really doing what she said. And I'm not gonna say it like she did. But you know they're really working from where they are, which is one of her key messages, and our fellows are doing that so beautifully. So I'll just stop there and say, we're just. We're just so beyond proud of them. I could talk about them all day if you run into me and I'm with them, I'm gonna introduce.

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Sarah Bush: Do she, too, like we we all just adore them so much, and the team at Ucf. Are, you know, Julie and Lisa and Brian and our Gras, like everyone, has just been so great. So it's been the experience of a lifetime

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Dustin Jones: that sounds so fantastic and just the

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Dustin Jones: I think, on so many levels. It must be wonderful for you, number One, just to work with such excellent people, and be able to to watch them grow in their own leadership and learning, and and support them. And then.

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Dustin Jones: you know, the people who ever wrote it. The catalyzing, changed policy documents would be thrilled to hear that there are 14 dissertations in Orlando County public schools that are all aligned to that. You happen to be one of those authors. So for you, it's like, you know, icing on the icing on the cake. That that policy document that you worked on is not getting ignored, but is getting implemented and

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Dustin Jones: and you're seeing some impacts in a real human way, I think.

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Sarah Bush: Yes, with that.

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Dustin Jones: that's great.

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Sarah Bush: absolutely. It's been. It's definitely been the experience of a lifetime. It's been wonderful.

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Dustin Jones: But, Sarah, do you have anything else to

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Dustin Jones: promote or share?

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Sarah Bush: Yeah, I? You know you. You had told me this was coming so. You know I was thinking about this a little bit, and I am excited.

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Sarah Bush: you know, part of the other work I do, which again, I think it's all part of the same story. But our integrated stem and steam work we actually have 2 new books coming out that I'm so excited about.

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Sarah Bush: One is for K. 5, and one is for 612. Krista Jackson led them, but they were really grounded in

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Sarah Bush:  the work, the kind of Krista and Margaret Moore Schroeder kind of conceptualized and dreamed up since their time together at University of Kentucky, over a decade ago. So the 3 of us, along with my close colleague, Kristen, cook and Science Ed, and then our math head colleagues, Thomas Roberts and Kat

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Sarah Bush: Maraca. We did this work together, and the books come out in January, but they focus on

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Sarah Bush: becoming so. Their books, for you know, math, teacher, teacher, classroom teachers, instructional coaches, Mathi, their core one book. So they're they're teacher resource books and educator resource books, because they also would be for informal. I should say that, but they focus on becoming stem system, disruptors

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Sarah Bush: to counteract deeply rooted traditions and stem education. So again, you can kind of see the alignment to catalyze and change. But they're grounded in something we've developed called the 4 Integrated Stem Practices, or, as the book title states, like the 4 equitable practices for inspiring meaningful learning.

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Sarah Bush: But basically these 4 practices synthesize the 8 standards for mathematical practice, the 8 science and engineering practices in the 8 technology and engineering practices and into 4 integrated kind of practices. You can implement an integrated stem

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Sarah Bush: learning experiences. But anyways, I'm so so excited about it. I hope you'll check it out. And then I also invite the Amt community to kind of join us collectively in really advocating for mathematics

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Sarah Bush: to really be at the forefront of all the stem conversations. I think that is so important.

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Sarah Bush: and I challenge us collectively to

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Sarah Bush: really advocate and be involved, and use our voice in that way.

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Sarah Bush: because to me mathematics is really the the gateway to stem which you know, the charting. Of course, policy document speaks to that from 2,018, but we we need to own that. And so II invite our community to to help them. That effort. And I know many people already are. So thank you.

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Dustin Jones: Okay, well, thanks so much, Sarah, for spending time with us. I maybe this was one of those things you couldn't say no to when it came across your your invite. It's just an

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Dustin Jones: and, thanks to you all listening. For tuning into the teaching math teaching. Podcast if you'd like to hear more, please subscribe to the podcast we hope, you're able to take action on something you just heard and interact with other math teacher educators also. Did you know that Amt has another podcast it's called the mathematics, teacher, educator, podcast and it accompanies the latest edition of the mathematics, teacher, educator, journal

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Dustin Jones: authors discuss the work. They've submitted for publication to that journal, and Avith Anheuser does a great job hosting find a link to the MTE. Podcast in the show notes for this episode.