0:00 Hello and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. The hosts are a with Anheuser me dusty Jones, and Joel Amidon. Today we're talking with Carlos Nicholas Gomez, who goes by Nico. Nico is an assistant professor in the Department of curriculum and instruction at the University of Texas at Austin. We're talking with him for a number of reasons. In particular, we want to learn more about his work surrounding mathematics, teachers identities, and also about the advocacy work of the organization, photos, mathematics for all. Welcome, Nico, would you please tell us a bit about yourself and your background? Sure. So first off, thanks for having me. This is a really great service that you all provide by running this podcast. And I'm sure it's a lot more work than what it may seem like to the listeners. So as you said, my name is Carlos Nicholas Gomez, I'm assistant professor at Austin. I was born in Santiago, Chile, and moved to the US when I was five, and was raised in El Paso, Texas. 1:09 And it was really, the reason I start there is because that's really what started that kind of context is what got me started thinking about identity and how we relate with others and these feelings of belongingness. And all that, because I moved to the United States already. So there was these big cultural differences. But at the same time, there was these notions of I present white, but I'm still Hispanic. So I'm not white, necessarily, culturally, very different Chilean and these heavy Mexican cultural influences and El Paso. So there was always this kind of in between this of belongingness there that I kind of grew up with, but didn't really have the language for it until I got to graduate school and started doing a lot of readings, about about identity. And that was really parts of the interest of why I went to graduate school, to work with teachers about that, because once I graduated with my undergraduate from the University of Texas at El Paso UTEP, I decided that I did want to continue thinking about education. But I wasn't felt like I had really gotten there yet. So on the recommendation of some of the professors at UTEP, I went to the University of Georgia. And that's where I started teaching in Georgia in a small town called winder taught at winder Barrow High School. And while I was there, this kind of cultural difference of now being in the south, and having a variety, much more diversity in people and and students kind of again, started having me thinking about these aspects, but then also, how a lot of the new teachers kind of easily conformed to particular ways of teaching. So that kind of power aspect of how schools work was also really intriguing to me. And so I just had a lot of questions about that. And when, as I continued my doctoral work and thinking about teacher education, these questions of power and identity, and what does it mean to belong and these feelings of, 3:10 of well, who am I as a teacher, and how those storylines change over time just became much, much more interesting. And that's what I ended up doing part of my dissertation work on. And I've had the joy of working with teachers to continue asking those questions and thinking about the storylines, that they develop themselves. And that's really interesting. So how did you I guess, continuing on that, how did you start in the teaching of math teachers? Was it when you were in You said you were in Georgia in graduate school? What kinds of classes were you teaching for them? So I didn't, as with most things, that kind of happened to me, I didn't really have a plan, which is part of how I think about identity as well, when it comes to these storylines that influenced us about what we should be doing, and why we do those things. Graduate School was kind of like that, for me as well, just because there was this growing up there was this narrative about education and how education is what helps us get out of poverty and get out of these challenging and difficult situations. And that was a storyline that existed a lot with my family. And so when I started graduate school, it was a lot more of following these storylines in order to kind of pay back for the sacrifices my family made in regards to their immigrant story. And so I knew I wanted to get a doctorate, but I didn't really have I had these questions, but I didn't know how to work. So when we started Georgia, it was just kind of assigned to me to be a TA in the elementary methods course. Even though I had no background in elementary or at the time, had no interest in elementary or didn't really know what I was getting myself into when thinking about a methods course. And I was assigned with Dr. Jessica Bishop while she was at UGA at the time, and that just really the conversations I had with her and with that 5:00 Students, it just really kind of started cracking this the shell and this nut of like, what is it that I'm trying to accomplish? And what is it that I'm trying to do that really started all of that was cool was that kind of random assignment that occurred there. And so what was the best advice you received, when you started out maybe from Dr. Bishop or from someone else, I think it was just just to try stuff. Because one of the things that Jessica kind of did for me in that first semester, was just like, give me the opportunity to just work with students. So even though the students were assigned, the pre service teachers were assigned students at a local elementary school to work with, she also got the school to assign me one. So I got to go in and work with a third grader, which I had never done before in my life. And I also had this idea for kind of a mini pilot study. And she just went ahead and let me and kind of talked with me about it. And so there was never, it was always like, well, you have the questions, let's just go ahead and try and see what happens. And that's just a lot of the stuff that I kind of think about now is just, instead of thinking about it, kind of theoretically, I also just kind of want to try it and just see what happens. And that I think has happened a lot in my teaching math teachers, as well as just, I don't know how this is gonna work. But we're gonna work through it all together, and just see what happens. cool with it from there. So what advice would you give to someone who is starting out? I think there's. So there's a variety of notions that I try to talk to with the pre service teachers about, I really try to expand the notion of play, and kind of that childlike curiosity, because I feel like especially watching my own children now. And at the time when I started, there's just kind of this unrelenting, nothing stops them from playing. Nothing stops them from having that curiosity of how does this work? How can I use this in the play that I'm doing right now? How can I incorporate these things that aren't supposed to be working together, but I'm going to make them work together somehow. There's just kind of an unrelenting ness to it. And so, when I think about mathematics teaching, I also want to think about that play, I want students to be able to play with the mathematics. So how do we create these environments, that allows adults to play like adults are taught to follow rules and to do as you're told, and there's a lot of power structures that we've learned to navigate. And by learning to navigate that we kind of forget how to play in some of these spaces. And so that's kind of like one of the big things that I tried to do. And I think that's what Jessica did for me in that first semester. And even later on when working with Jim Wilson, and with Anna Marie Connor, they just allowed me to play with whatever I was thinking about. And I think that's a really powerful thing to kind of consider how do we play as adults? And how do we play in our field in order to discover new things? I love that phrasing the nothing stops them from plain, like in just, I have an eight year old right now. And like I see that within, like, you know, I see the energy and passion that he has, and especially when he's in play, and like this focus, and it's just like this thing, it's, it's hard to replicate in other spaces and think of like, Okay, so how do we tap into this energy tap into this focus to tap into this desire to keep going? And how do we use that within our teaching and like this huge asset? And so and even then to point it back to ourselves or to adults and say, how do we play? How do we give permission to play in, you know, the serious subject of mathematics? You know, like, how do we give that permission? My other son is in calculus, I'm like, are they playing with calculus? Are they playing with these ideas and things? Because there's some interesting stuff that could happen there if just given the freedom given the the opportunities to do so. Oh, yeah, I love there's two facets that I love watching my kids that I love watching them play outside, because we don't have any outside toys. It's hot as hell here is this is not. I'm trying to find shade, I'm trying to survive. And they're just running a muck. Like, like nothing. He's eating mud. He finds that amazing. He's tearing up his clothing. He's just he does not care at all, because he's just enjoying the moment. He's enjoying just the opportunity to explore the different textures to explore the new environment to just play. And I feel like can we recreate that? Can we do that with mathematics? And I think a lot of the tools that we have, like Desmos and do algebra, let us play. I mean, that's why they're so powerful. They let us play with space. They let us play with numbers. They let us play with these covariation relationships in ways that children just kind of playing in general, and I really tried to think about like how to just how to play more. I'm gonna jump in and change a little bit. 10:00 I liked how you talked about the placement that you had at Georgia where you were placed in an elementary methods and you had no experience either with methods or with Elementary, and just kind of went for it. Talk a little bit more about that. So I think I was a Americanized really well in school to do, as I was told. And so when I was told, this is the job you have right now, I was like, well, this is a job I have right now. I'm going to do as I'm told, and I'm going to try to figure out what this space is like, and see what happens, again, kind of my nonchalant attitude, I suppose. But yeah, it was just a, it was just a really different space. And I think when we're putting new spaces, I mean, it's kind of a fight or flight mode, we're either going to dive on in and see what happens. And again, kind of be open to the environment and to what it is that we are being asked to do and to consider and to think about. Or we're going to kind of just do, as I'm told, because I have to be here, but really be thinking about something else, as we're doing it. And I think at the time, just because again, I was so following the storyline of this is what you're supposed to do. And to kind of pay back family and the sacrifices that they made. That if I'm going to go all in, then I'm going to just have to go all in, regardless of the situation that they put me in in because I just didn't have an idea of what graduate school was what it even entailed what it looked like, or I had no idea what it was really getting myself into. It just allowed me a little bit more, I guess, openness to just take in what was happening and think about it in even in ways that I hadn't thought about before. So Nico, I know you're involved in the organization tonos mathematics for all? Why are you involved in this organization? What's good about todos? 12:00 I would just like to say I'm also involved with a mte. 12:05 Sure. 12:07 Not saying you're not involved in other things not. And I'm not saying you have to convince me that todos is good. I think todos is good. Also. 12:15 Not to play favorites. But yeah, so I got involved with those because so I've been doing a lot of thinking, since you all invited me to, to talk about todos. Because I'm really trying to think more about like, what do we want from our professional organizations? Like what do we seek when we are joining these professional organizations that we have, because there's a lot in method, there's, 12:38 you know, I can list them all, but you'll probably have some notions of what they are. So just thinking about our professional organizations, I think those fills a space that I'm looking for, in regards to the relationship that it has with practicing teachers, specifically practicing teachers who are working with in the southwest, although toeless has now expanded to across the US. But just the work that they do with practicing teachers in regards to multilingual students, and focusing more on the Latino population just aligns nicely with the ways that I've been thinking about research and my role. When it comes to practitioners. I think todos just does a nice job of balancing research and practitioner work in the same way that in the same vein that nctm does, but they just haven't gotten that big yet. But they're definitely growing. And I think they're definitely an organization that will continue to grow. I was before we hit record, and thank you for reminding us to hit record. We started talking about just some of the things that todos was doing this summer, I don't know if you could just mention some of the things that todos has been doing just for those that maybe aren't aware of some of the stuff that some of the great stuff that todos has been doing with regards to math education. Yeah. So as part of the advocacy committee photos, I can speak more about what that committee has been doing. I can't really speak for a lot of some of the other inside work that the other committees may be doing. I mean, there's a lot of outside work that I can highlight as well from the organization in general. So this last summer, the advocacy committee was running the Twitter chats that we were having this summer over running some reading groups, specifically over the commentaries and the statements that were released by those. And so we ran kind of a, we did a hashtag total summer read. And we led and some Twitter chats about those particular commentaries and really trying to emphasize how those commentaries can catalyze powerful thoughts and advocacy and really, again, by 15:00 To the kind of balanced between the membership of those is we have a lot of practicing teachers who are part of those conversations. And so we hope that the commentaries and the statements that are released really empower them to be able to have difficult and challenging conversations in within their own spaces within their own schools and districts, regardless of where they may be in the structure. So we want practicing teachers, first year teachers, veteran teachers to be able to have conversations with admin and with superintendents and have kind of these statements to back up some of the advocacy that they could be doing in regards to tracking in regards to technology in regards to remote teaching like they are now, we really want to give them the tools to be able to advocate for their students and advocate for themselves. And that's what we were hoping to to be able to do by running those conversations through the Twitter chats. And by promoting the reading of these documents. Yeah, those are amazing. I mean, just as a 16:03 viewer of those chats and seeing how the kinds of engagement that you had going that was, I mean, some great approachable ways for people to break apart some of those statements, because sometimes they come out, and they're just there and like, but you're actually like, Hey, what's actually really look at this stuff. And so I know, hats off to y'all for engaging in those conversations. Yeah, I really have to give credit to the other folk in the advocacy committee. I mean, it was really all of our work, putting it together, coming up with the idea of doing that. And then running them. I mean, really being participants in them. That was a Oh, the the logistics of that was a lot more than maybe we had originally thought but it was for for us to to put all that together. 16:48 It was really a group effort was really nice. Nikko, what makes a good day as a person in your role as an assistant professor at UT Austin. So how's your day? Good? What does that mean? What's that look like? I wish I knew. 17:01 I would like to feel good. Sure. Every once in a while sort of waves of insecurity and disappointments and things not working. But again, I think that more personal issues. So. So what makes it good. I think that this is also part of my kind of aligns with my research. I just I like, I like talking to people, not like small chat, like in the hallways or anything like that. I'm not actually very awkward with all that. But I like talking to people about how they're thinking, and not necessarily their mathematical thinking, but just how are they putting the pieces together? How are they thinking ritually about pedagogy. And so whenever I can get a really good conversation going with, with students about just reaching that level of deep thought about their actions, about their discourses about their, their position within this hierarchical system that unfortunately, mathematics education and mathematics teaching is in, you know, if I can get them to think a little richer about community about their Latin ex students that they have in their classroom, and the ways that language weave culture and background and experiences into this classroom and into a tapestry of the students and the teacher, and the admin and the community all together and all filters down to the classroom, if I can get students to really start thinking about that, ritually, and having a conversation about that in my class. And that just, that just makes a great day. Yeah. To me, it's just really, can I get them to have that conversation freely, without thinking about grades? Or whatever grade they're going to make in this class? Or is this going to count towards my participation for the day? If I can get them past that aspect? And just think about the philosophy of teaching and their philosophy and how all that ideological work comes together? That's what makes a really good day. That's cool. Yeah. Those times when we kind of lose track of time, and we're just really having those deep conversations seem to be the best kinds. I like it. When I'm in a class and it gets over and I say, oh, I've gone over time, and someone says, Oh, I didn't even realize. So sir. Those are not as often but as I'd like, but those are good times. Yeah. I mean, when you get into a really rich conversation about a problem with practice that they're having in the classroom, and then you just go and touch on all the things that you had planned for the day anyway. Mm hmm. Because the student brings a story, this narrative, this something that they've experienced, that they're having this affective or emotional reaction with, and you have that opportunity to now talk about the inequities of the classroom, but also how the discourse and the facilitation of that discourse can matter ritually and thinking about how that's a larger systemic issue, but at the same time, this is what we can do as a community is this is what we can do as teachers like once you can incorporate all that into a single moment that just sparked all of this really connected, narrative and discourse. 20:00 As to the actual problem of practice that this person experienced. I mean, that is just to that's like the moment you seek whenever you're teaching. And it's just like, it's not, it doesn't happen every time you teach, or at least not to me. But when it does happen, it's almost like, Oh, I got it. It's almost addicting, you're like, when's the next time that this is going to happen? We're going to have, so that's what keeps me motivated to keep going. Why? No, I never saw you teach Nikko, but I did see you do the opening panel of last year's AMT conference with Kevin Shabalin, Mike Steele. And some of the things that you're talking about in this, you know, we talked about with your students when it makes a good day. I remember, like in that talk, like hearing you say some things that was like that, that shove, right, that kind of shoved me out of, Hey, I'm here to present and put some on my CV or something like really anything? Well, what why am I a math teacher educator? What are the purposes? What partnerships Do I need to have? What are the things I need to do in my role that I have? And it's not about this other superficial stuff in it? What is the actual the work that I'm engaged in? And like, I just remember having that it's like, it was one of those episodes, you're talking about a good day with your cloud, just like that was a good it was a good day for me. I know, that was like a wow, this is I really need to process what I just heard from you all, but like, I specifically remember some things that you said, and it's just like, he was a pause reflection. And that was a it was a good day for me. So I'm just want to put a little kudos out there for you that that was a that was a good day for me. So thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's Yeah, I mean, that was a really interesting experience to be given that responsibility of being part of that panel and conversation. I'm, since then I've really been thinking a lot. And because they just kind of catalyze that, thinking about professional organizations, and why why are we so pressured into being in so many professional organizations? or What does it mean to be really part of one? What do we expect from our professional organizations? What do we want from them? And I, I don't know, I'm kind of thinking more critically. Now. I've had a lot of time, while watching my children around the backyard to also think about, like, what is the like you were saying, Joel, I think part of that idea of like, what narratives were told and what we should be doing and what we just do, because well, that's what we're supposed to be doing these kind of like traditions and traditional storylines of our work, that sometimes we're just so used to them, we just perpetuate them and follow them, right? And it's like, well, I have to go to AARP every couple of years, because that's what they told me to. or that's what's gonna look good on my CV, and I need to go for promotion. But why am I really going to here? Is it really just for that line? Or is there something bigger that I'm just kind of putting in the background instead of foregrounding, instead of foregrounding? these narratives of like what I should be doing, and I think that's when things become really problematic, and we stop looking at our even our own professional organizations of like, what are they doing? And what should they be doing, then? I guess we're just so used to the rigmarole of it, that we're not really asking the questions about their role in our own identity development as researchers, right. And then thinking about even just with just pointing out some examples, we've already highlighted here, like the time that you spent creating a, you and your committee have created a very engaging Twitter chat around some important issues. That time could have been spent, like working on editing an article or editing something else that we're told that we should do versus you can't put a Twitter chat on a CV, but like, think about how much value that offered to folks that might not access or like have access or even want to access that top tier journal article, article we can put together versus that Twitter chat that said something that gave them the the shove the thing that makes them reconsider some of the things that they're doing their classroom, or how to have those conversations with an administrator and think about that impact of those things that can be in Yeah, just getting us to rethink some of this stuff. Yeah, I mean, the, it's just that stuff's hard to measure, right? In the end of things about like, what can we measure? We can measure things on a CV, we can measure citations, we can measure these other quantitative kind of aspects to it all. But it's hard to measure like impact. Yeah, right. Like we claim, there's this again, I feel like there's this false narrative of like, high citations means high impact. But I think some of the citation analysis work that's being done some work that we me and Anna Marie Connor did, and then some work that late them and I think, Sam otton, they all have, they've all published some kind of citation analysis. And a lot of it doesn't show very good things about what citations really mean. You look a little deeper, 24:44 which is a little concerning, because again, we're putting so much weight on like the number of citations instead of really thinking about, well, what is the impact of the work that we're doing? Because we can't measure it? Mm. Oh, I'm wondering if we 25:00 Like when you guys said, you can put Twitter chats on a CV, I would beg to differ. Let's just put them on. Let's create a section called community building or whatever we want to call it. Start doing that. And I was wondering, Nico, if because in the beginning, you talked about belonging. And I was wondering if you want to reflect a little bit on belonging with respect to the organization's. And if that's something that organizations could potentially help with? I think there's a lot of room for growth in our organizations when it comes to that, particularly when it comes to so I look at other organizations, right. So like I told you all I've been thinking a lot about our professional organizations since AMT last year, and what do we really want from them. And one of the things that I argued in that talk was the lack of ways that we've created either, for example, race affiliated support groups, or organizations or anything like that within mathematics education. Yet, if you look at the National Council of Teachers of English, they have different race affiliated caucuses, within their national organization, to put those groups together to help develop support systems for Latino for black scholars, and black teachers and all of that, like they have like these different caucuses that they support within their national organization. Even if we look at mathematicians, and the mathematics field, the science field in general, they also have these affiliations and different race affiliated groups that can provide a way of networking and communicating and helping navigate issues that may be particular to those particular places of belonging. And I'm not seeing that in math, ed. And I don't know why it feels like we're just slightly behind these other organizations, and we're not there, we're not accomplishing that, that aspect of it. Where I feel like Latino teachers face particular issues in regards to community and being the bridge between their Spanish speaking and the Spanish speaking community that they might be working with, you know, that's an additional emotional labor that they deal with. In the Southwest, we have an other parts of the country, but there's a lot of immigration issues that are also trying to be worked, there's migrant populations. And that's just me thinking about the Latino population in general, for the area, and those specific issues. And it's difficult to find a space to maybe talk about that within ANSYS nctm, or within a mte. Or within even the smaller organizations like our CML, those, I feel like accomplishes that, because they're so specific in their mission statement of their goal of focusing on Latino students. But it's hard to find that kind of support in other organizations that I feel like our other colleagues in the other fields are already doing that. And I'm not sure how to even get that started. I feel like that's a thing that's much larger. But when you look across at all organizations, and what they're trying to accomplish, they're all trying to accomplish a lot already. And I feel like this should be the next step somewhere. And I'm still not seeing that, that kind of system of support for marginalized or minoritized populations of scholars and teachers. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's a very important point for us to make, and to think through how we could make progress towards that. Yeah, I was just in the amtv virtual board meeting, and we were having conversations along these lines. So I'm excited to get back to them and share some of the ideas that that you've mentioned and discussed, Nikko, because I don't, I don't know that. Anyone said something quite in the same way that you said that. And I think it makes a good argument for trying to find spaces and organizations or sub sub organizations or something like that, where people who are facing similar challenges can discuss and try to work out solutions to those. Yeah. And I don't think they have to be just race based. I mean, I think about in mathematics in the field of mathematics. I know there's a specific I can't, the name is escaping me up right now. But there's a specific group that's for LGBTQ plus mathematicians. And that's they're navigating a very complicated space, especially if there are also when combining that with race and with class background and even the position within the university that they have lecture versus adjunct versus whatever. I think these kind of spaces where people can 30:00 can share stories and experiences have those testimonials? And those conversations about like, how do we navigate this space as XYZ, it can make a really big difference. And I think that was something that those did for me, it just gave me a space to be able to talk with other, especially the conference that I attended, it just gave me an opportunity to talk with a lot of other Latino and Hispanic researchers, practitioners, pre service teachers, who are also kind of seeking out those similar spaces of, or consensus on how to navigate these predominantly white spaces that we work in. And these predominantly whites kind of ideologies, that we just kind of subsumed to, because we have to work the system, we have to play the game, and sometimes that can really get under our skin more than we think it is. What's the name of that organization? You were thinking of spectra? Does that sound right? Yeah, that sounds about Yeah, I did a Google search. So no. 31:04 Yes, but yeah, I mean, those kinds of spaces just don't exist, like we. And I know actually, people have tried, like, through their own grassroots ways, like Geeta and Martin, and I'm gonna forget the last person, they ran the mathematics educators of color scholars of color, the me sock, they had two meetings a couple of years back. So there were there were attempts, but they were not supported by any professionalization, these were purely on the backs of other scholars of color to put together and that's just not how it should work, the weight should not be on the scholars of color to create these spaces. If we're there really are allies out there, if there really are folk who are trying to support and help co conspirators, then there needs to be that dialogue, to begin creating these spaces. It can't be on the shoulders of other scholars of color who have navigated the system successfully, and can be good role models for us. But the thing is, I can't be on their shoulders, I mean, if they want to survive and continue doing the work that they're doing and advocating for all the different kinds of populations they're advocating for. I mean, they need support. They need the help of these professional organizations and the resources that they have in order to be able to reach all those who may need these spaces for them. So Niko besides watching your kids play outside and trying not to burn up outside because I also being in Texas know how hot it is. What, what else do you like to do for fun? I'm one of those kind of boring people that I like to work. 32:41 That is my fun. So the opportunity to you know, once the kids are asleep, I will mindlessly watch something on television that me and my wife agree to Great British baking shows back on. That's a great mindless show peaceful, fantastic. Yes, yeah. 32:59 And then it's just back to work for me, because again, I like thinking about how people, how we do this, how teachers develop that identity, just in general identity development, to me is fascinating, whether it be through teachers, or students, or even ourselves as researchers and scholars. What storylines are existing out there that we are easily accepting, when really we should be pushing back? So I think a lot about 33:27 think a lot about I think a lot about punk music. Because to me as a 16 year old, 15 year old, 14 year old, really getting into punk music just kind of opened this door of like, yes, you can ask questions. Yeah, this is messed up. It doesn't work. So what do we do about it, there's like a healthy amount of skepticism, and optimism within a lot of the punk music that I heard growing up and really kind of embraced of that, constantly feeling like an outcast. And they just kind of empowered me to think more about these larger systems and how the things that we are enacting and doing are not necessarily within the interpersonal, but they're within these more macro level influences that have trickled down and we just accept. And so I think a lot of the times, I want to continue that healthy amount of skepticism, and well, it's not always healthy. But there's a lot of skepticism and thinking about these storylines, and questioning, like why these traditions are these traditions, like Joel was saying earlier, you know, we get engulfed in getting the next CVX line going to this conference, because that's what I'm supposed to be doing. Where do these traditions exist? And where do they keep going and which ones should we question as we keep going as a field. And I think major events like the ones that have been happening this summer really allow us the opportunity to not only question but to reconstruct and reimagine the kind of fun 35:00 Don't say anything. I was just saying that's what I do for fun. Yeah. 35:05 I mean, that kind of reminds me of something that Erica said that was the latest episode that we released about is like, when he gets comfortable, that's when he starts questioning things. Like he starts looking around and like, what am I comfortable? If I'm in a rut, like, I need to look around and see, like, start questioning some things. And finding, looking for discomfort in the hard questions, I think is what he said. But like having those moments when, like, this summer, when all of a sudden is like, Wait a second, now you're looking around. That's not right. That's not right. Like, there's things that pushed us a lot is to be maybe a little bit more reflective than we normally would. But then why does that? Why can't we look around more often? Right? Why does it take these horrific events? To get us to look around and say like, you know, what, there's some unjust things that are happening, or looking at my own institution, my own classroom, my own practices, and think about what could be better here? How could I be instituting something that's a little bit more just in my everyday actions and into my influence within my classroom, my institution, my organizations, cetera? Yeah, for sure. And I feel like, so I get I get it, that these events that have happened over the last months, and if not all of 2020, just maybe all 2020, in general, have been a big catalyst to people thinking about this more, but it's always a little irksome, because it's like, there's been plenty of people screaming about this for a really long time. And nobody's heard them. Absolutely. And so it's like, I'm happy that people are hearing it now. Well, they're hearing it from particular sources, because now they're some of those people who are screaming about it, you know, unfortunately, can't keep talking right now. But you know, that idea of voice and how voices travel over time, also makes a big difference in the storylines that we accept. And the storylines, that and how they're influential into the development of future storylines. And so I'm glad that more people are listening, and that we're having these conversations now. But there's always a part of, of me in the back of my head, that's like, but this has been why there's that's a little irked about like, Why now? Yeah, this is I get that this was bad. I get that now, you've been finally jolted into doing this, but you could have happened much further back if you had just listened. And I don't know. I mean, I'm very happy, I'm glad these conversations are happening. I'm glad that this is going. I'm concerned as always that these things become trope and become, because again, the more things are talked about, the more they're likely to just fade into the background. So now that anti racism and anti bias, professional development has become more accepted, and more being sought out. You also start getting more and more questions about that development, and about where did this come from? And it becomes almost I would say, the same way that culturally relevant teaching has become it's it's become a thing people say, but I don't know if people really are doing what they're supposed to be doing when it comes to that. Yeah. So the first time I heard Gloria ladson, Billings talk was on in the New York at a era. And she was on a panel with a bunch of folks, you know, some of the legends and culture relevant teaching cultural and pedagogy. And she said, Yeah, like, there's people out there that are using the words that I coined to put in their mission statement, put in their values, and like, I want to go check it out. I want to go see, are they actually doing these things? Then maybe that is maybe that is the position of the organization's of ourselves. Like to keep these things going and to keep them true to their initial purpose is to do things right. Now. Nikko? Is there anything that you would like to promote 39:02 devenue punk rock album that's about to drop, Nico. I don't know anymore. I don't do that. Those were my college years. No, not particularly, I'm not doing anything that requires a any kind of promotion of the sort. I think there's a lot of good work being done at those. So if anything, I would promote people to go and take a look at the webinars that have been occurring that are still occurring. The ones sponsored by Casio are available online, and those have been really rich in regards to conversations about equity, and what that equitable practice may look like and a lot of it's given me a lot of food for thought. those particular webinars that told us has been putting on in the last six months or so. So I would really recommend people to go and check those out. And I guess if I promote anything, it's just more play. That's great. Well, thanks so much Nico, for for sharing. 40:00 During your time with us, I've really enjoyed this conversation. And I like like Joel had mentioned how when you talk today mte that really made me think about some important issues. And I think this conversation has helped me think some more. I've got pages of notes here that I'm going to look back on and continue to think about some important things. And I want to thanks, say thanks again to the listeners for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. I hope this has been helpful for you as well, and we'll be sure to subscribe to the podcast, we hope you're able to implement something that you just heard and take an opportunity to interact with other math teacher educators. Just one more thing before we close out the 2021 AMT annual conference will take place virtually this year with synchronous presentations and asynchronous poster sessions, please say February 11 through the 13th and February 18, through the 20th for the 2021 virtual amtv annual conference. If you've never attended before, this just might be your opportunity to do so the meeting will feature shorter days and we would normally program for an in person convening, with schedules designed to accommodate multiple time zones. For more information, check out the AMT website at AMT e dotnet. NET