0:00 Hello and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. The hosts are Eva anhyzer dusty Jones, and I'm Joel Amidon. Today we are talking with Candice cook, who is a math coach at Oxford school district in Oxford, Mississippi. And Brian buck alter who is founder and lead facilitator at buckwild. about math, which is a professional development and consultation firm based out of Oxford, Mississippi, we are talking to them because both of them for their unique reason have, they have both been in the same position of math coach at Oxford School District. And we're just going to talk to them about what their transition was from one leaving the position to one game in the position and thinking about what else that we might need to know about becoming math coaches. So welcome, Candice. And Brian, can you take a just quick minute to introduce yourself beyond what I already just said, Okay, I am Katie's coke. And I'm currently This is my first year into the math coach position. And before that, I taught math for 15 years here in Mississippi, right one, Hi, everyone. This is Brian buck altar, affectionately known as Dr. Buck tall. My friend. I also taught started by a teaching career here in Oxford, Mississippi, where I taught middle school mathematics for about eight years, after which I transitioned into the position of our district math coach was served for about five years. And currently, I'm enjoying getting to meet all my teachers, friends, through my buckwild, about my adventures. And just from a personal note, like both the two of you, when I first moved here to Mississippi, Brian was the well you know, this, you're the first classroom I've ever gone to in Mississippi and just so welcoming and just was able to the your reputation proceeded you just all the different ways that you interacted with students, and then you moved into the mouth coach role. And then candy is, again, the same thing, you had a tremendous reputation got a chance to interact with you through some of our teacher candidates here at the university, Mississippi. So again, just glad to have you, both of you in this podcast to talk about some of your expertise. So I got the first question here. How did you start teaching math teachers, not just teaching math, but teaching math teachers about maybe 2006, I started my teaching career teaching middle school math, like as I said, and to be honest, I didn't have any background, or any training in mathematics education, I was an Elementary Ed major coming out of college. And so I like to say, you know, I knew a little bit about a lot of things, but I wasn't well versed in teaching math. And so with my first teaching assignment, I found that I was going to have to fill in a lot of my own content, knowledge gaps. And so I started pursuing math, science partnership programs or webinars on the internet. And as I was learning things, I started sharing them with my colleagues who are also teaching sixth grade. And lucky for me, we got along great, they were always so receptive to anything new that I was learning and I was excited about. And it eventually became this exchange, where we were all learning, but bringing this information back to the table to share with one another. So I would say that's probably my start working with my peers sharing ideas. Eventually, my principal asked me to serve as the department chair for our middle school. And so that gave me an opportunity to work with teachers from other grade levels as well, from their rather just other leadership, visions kind of came about our district started a differentiated instruction cohort. And I was able to lead a lot of that. And I was able to link some experiences that I was having outside of the school district to my work in the school district. So the year that I transitioned to math coach, also became a graduate research fellow at the Center for mathematics, and science education here at the University of Mississippi. And through that role with my fellowship, I was able to research and work with lots of teachers in nearby school districts. And I really considered that experience to kind of be like action research. So I was in a lab learning about learning and teaching math and the progression of the content, but then I had this playground to really go out and try out the things that I was learning and share with even more teachers and follow through with them and see the fruits of their labor. So I would say tracing all of this teacher leadership history, it really goes back to just working well with my grade level peers back in the early 2000s. Yeah, that's a great think about where you can start right there. Right and maybe one of your peers right here at the time. Okay, so for me, I started as a third grade math teacher and 5:00 The Mississippi Delta. And so I taught there for like four years. And then in 2008, is when I began here in the oxer. School District. I've been a kind of teacher leader for some time now. And so even as Brian said, being a department chair, that's really what helped me a lot. As far as when did I start teaching math teachers. And so it was like being a department chair, and just from the practitioner point of view, being in there, and teachers often coming to me and asking for help or needing advice, or how did you do this and a lot of the tasks and the way that I learned to teach math, I did that through teacher programs like projects. 5:42 And so that's where I developed a lot of the the ways of thinking that I kind of practice in the school now. So just being a teacher leader for quite some time, and being a department chair. That's kind of given me the footing that I needed to start in this position. Just a little background was project prime was that who was running that project? 6:04 Yes, so project comm and actually project Delta as well. Angela Barlow and Dr. daughtery. Barbara daughtery. Yeah. So like Angela Barlow, the new editor of the New nctm journal out there that was here at the University of Mississippi for a while. So just a little a little side information. So, okay, so we got that kind of the background into how you started teaching math teachers, and for that kind of grassroots sort of level. So what would you like to have known when you started, like your current position, and both of you went? 6:39 This might be a good conversation, because maybe there was some sharing of information here, but between Brian and Candy's, but what would you like to have known when you started? How about you, Brian, given that you started a little while ago with being a math coach? Yeah, you know, when I first started serving as the math coach for our school district, it was really unheard of position you I would always get these really weird, awkward, sad face stares, where people go, Oh, what is that? What does a math coach do? And so, you know, I don't think I even knew how to answer that question initially, for people, but looking back now, I think I would tell myself that, you know, it's okay to not feel like you have to know everything, when people may have coached title, it's a certain pressure, quite honestly, that's put on you, I've been introduced to teachers students is Oh, and here's our math guru, or here's the guy that knows everything about math. And so it's a certain level of expectation that I think I set for myself initially, that was unrealistic, often would look back, and really question, am I fit for this position? Because I don't know certain things or I'm not aware of certain things. And now knowing that it's okay to say, I don't know, but I'll find out for you. Let me get back to you. Like, it's okay. I think it shows us as learners to teachers or anyone that we're working with. And so I would probably just tell myself, it's okay to learn and not feel like you have to have an answer for everything right away. Like modeling that same perspective, you probably want out of your teachers, right? Just Hey, it's okay to ask. It's okay to ask those questions. Absolutely. Even when I'm talking to people outside of education, and I'm describing describing my work as a math coach, they often go to tell me teachers, like are still learning teachers they graduated. 8:37 I'll give the the doctors the leeches analogy, like, yeah, luckily, our doctors continue to learn and they know more advanced practices beyond leeches. And so all of our perfect the same way where our professionals deserve to be in environments that are contained, willing to support them. Right. We got to move on from the leeches. Yeah, that's great. 9:00 How would you Candy's would you like, first started, actually, I kind of had like this pre meeting with Brian, before, actually, like taking on the position or once I had been hired. And I just wanted like a to do list like, what do you think that I should know? Or do as soon as I come in, so when once I started it, I knew that I was supposed to start getting ready for a PD. Well, I had never like just done a PD fi myself, like, I mean from start to finish, you know what I mean? And so just I needed this to do list so because that's the kind of person I am if if I know the expectations, I'm gonna live up to those but I just needed to know like, what to do, what are the expectations, so that's what I wanted to know. So I kind of met with him and got a little you know, like a list to start and kind of just went from there and I felt like really I just had to jump in and kind of learn some things as I 10:00 Go on just being just being really honest here. So what is the best advice that you did receive? If that's not covering what you already shared? or What advice would you give to someone starting out in this role? Well, I will say the best advice is, like Brian said earlier, knowing that I may not have all the answers for you right now. But I will get back to you. So just knowing that I don't have to be an expert in every thing, as long as I'm, you know, willing to go back and research and then get that information back to you or put you in contact with someone who may know. And just a little piece about the advice that I would give someone starting out, I think it's very important to establish relationships with the principals and the teachers, or yourself. And so I would say, going in and meeting with those principals, like one on one meetings, and just asking them, what's their expectation, and then attending PLCs, with the teachers to kind of like, get a feel of the culture and the way things are already. So be really good listener, starting out. Yeah, so if teachers are engaging in some sort of professional learning, jump into that, so building those relationships with administrators, so you can basically do that, like, hey, when are those things happening? When can I come and be a part of them? And then, so there, and then also just having that same posture of a learner, awesome. From that best advice? Great. How about you, Brian, best advice or advice you'd give to someone starting on this role, and this is kind of cheating, because you did already, but maybe there's something else, maybe there's something you held back. And now we need to we need to do that? 11:40 Well, I started the best advice I received. So I'll give you a little story time. Okay. So I was leaving the middle school transitioning into the district math coach position, and I got a phone call from one of the eighth grade English teachers, Arlene down. And Miss Tao was known for, you know, being strict and crazy. And I mean, she had all students respect all the teachers respect, she has such a wisdom and a craft, within teaching. But she called me one night, and she congratulated me on making this transition. And she asked me a question, she asked me, Why did I want to be a math coach? And of course, I gave her like, the most politically correct, this will give me a Miss America kind of response. I want to support the teachers to support the students who are the future, you know, which I still do believe. But the second question she asked me was, well, who's the greatest math coach out there? How stopped? What What does she mean, who's the greatest math coach? I don't know, this position just became available, I interviewed and I got it. And I'm just gonna do whatever they tell me to do. And she said, you know, you need to take some time and find out who's the greatest math coach out there? And what is it that they do? And so it started me on a journey of figuring out exactly what is this math coaching? What's the impact behind coaching that makes it so relevant, and so needed? And so this journey quickly brought me across Jim Knight, who, you know, some people consider like the godfather of coaching, instructional coaching. And it took me to organizations like the National Council of supervisors on mathematics, or ncsm, as it's known now, with where I was able to start to put the pieces of the puzzle together. So I was starting to answer questions like what what is a math coach? How do math coaches operate? What are different models of coaching? How do I measure my impact? And so her just questioning to me or even I'll even say, challenging me? Because I don't think it was so much that she was looking for me to actually say, someone, but she was just being a good teacher. She inquiry question. Yeah, exactly. She was intriguing me enough. So that I would start to walk this journey of really making an impact in this role. So that was probably the best advice I received. I talk about all the time, when I'm answering a question like this can't be shared. Some of the advice that I would definitely give to one starting out in this role is you know, building relationships is so important building relationships within the buildings you're serving within the district, with your peers in the same role, and even through networking and professional organizations, building relationships with the people that we consider to be the experienced mathematics leaders. In our annual conference, I say our also serve on the board of directors for ncsm as the associate journal editor, and our annual conference is coming up at the end of March beginning of April in Chicago and we have a new session that we're trying out this year, is called speed leading, connecting emergent leaders with experienced mathematics leaders, because we realize the importance of coaches not just supporting teachers, but coaches support 15:00 And other coaches. And so having these opportunities to, you know, sit and I still consider myself a novice coach to sit and soak up the leadership and the wisdom of people like skip fennel and Jeanie de Williams and the Kalos. And, you know, these are people whose work we read, and we model our work after. So to be able to sit and have a conversation with those people. It just makes such an incredible feeling of Completion with this work. So I definitely I would totally piggyback Candice and saying that, you know, building relationships is so important and starting out in this role. And I know to from my experience with you and and we're actually going to give a chance for dusty neighborhood ask a question maybe in a second, as I just share this little bit, is, you also build relationships. And I saw you build relationships, not only with the teachers, but with the students, you were pretty regular in some of the classrooms. And I know that some my kids were in, even to the point where I don't know if you remember this, you put a post it on my daughter Annie's a notebook that said, Annie, are you okay, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? And, like, just the fact that you would, that you spent those times in classrooms didn't actually know a kid's name. And, and to do that, but just even to show that you're still in the classroom teaching math, so that you know, when other teachers see you doing that they know that okay, this is this is good stuff, right? This is what he's telling me is actually working. And I'm seeing in front of me. So I just appreciate that from a relationship standpoint, all the way down to the students that are the most important reason why you're there, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. All right, Eva and dusty. Do you have any questions? Want to check in with you? I have a question. I was wondering, Candice, you were talking about a list that you had at the beginning, as wondering if you could share a little bit about what was on that list? The To Do list? Yeah. Oh, well, I do still have that notebook, honestly, that I still writing in, I will have to find my belief to be able to share some of those things. But I know it was, um, yeah, thanks. 17:11 I have to go back to my list. Because like, literally, my brain is on go all day, every day now. And so I really need to go back to that list to 17:21 tell you specifically, that what he bought from that list to the list that I really make now, you know, every day literally making lists? Well, maybe you could just talk about a list on a typical day. Okay, so yes, I'm actually I have this program, that's called set more. And so to me, that keeps me very organized. Even if I didn't have that I will use a calendar to kind of write out everything that I'm supposed to do during the day, whether it's going to meet teachers at their different PLC, or going to meet teachers one on one, or even, even now, my la coach, we also do, we partner and do different PDS. So I literally have a list every day of the things that I need to do, the things that are urgent, the things that can wait, and the things that you know, on down the road that I will literally need to get to. So just creating a list every day to help me keep organized, if I did not have those lists, I really do not know what I would do. Because I'm just always so busy. Every day things are being added to that list. But also, even though I do have a list, I think it's very important to keep a balance in there as well, because I am a graduate student also. And so working on my add, so I have this list that I that's my work list, and then that's my school list. So keeping it organized by priorities is very important to me to have even a balance of work life balance, even at home. Thank you. This is dusty, and I'm wondering how many teachers or PLCs or appointments you have in a in a day or a week? I'm guessing I'm asking for an idea of how big is is the district that you're serving? And are you the only math coach right now you've mentioned a teammate who's a la coach, I am for pre K through sixth grade, and I am in literally pre K through sixth grade meetings. I kind of alternate, so except for fifth and sixth I made those meanings pretty regularly every week. But the pre K through four that alternate through those so example I'm looking at my setmore calendar right now and although it's a four day week, I have 245 PLCs that I still need to attend or some of those I've already attended, you know yesterday, but even today, I will go to a fourth grade PLC so we're in those meetings with the teachers very regularly. 20:00 working on different 20:03 standards, even if it's unpacking standards, or planning or talking about what we need to do to help students get better. So I'm in those meetings very regularly. So what makes a good day? So wherever you're at what makes a good day for you? And if you could give a specific example, that'd be great. All right. Well, Candice, I give you a chance to catch your breath. And I'll jump in on this one, okay. Okay. You know, I really view the role as math coaches kind of this bridge, between the research and the practice, we have researched our advantage, to learn from experiences of others and to be challenged, and some of our ways of thinking. And so to be able to take something that I've been researching, or I've really been studying, because I know a fits a need, and need to be able to share that with teachers and with administrators, I think is the good day for me. Because at the end of every experience that I have with teachers, I really give them a moment to reflect on what we've talked about what we've done, and where they are on this continuum, improving our teaching practices. And it's a moment that sometimes we share, sometimes we don't share, but to hear teachers say, I never thought about it like that. And Begley was students this might be good for, and I want to go back in and reteach this, knowing this now, knowing how the content is built are different strategies. For me, that's the most perfect day. Yeah, when you hear that? That's Yeah, that's a good, that's a good one. How about you candies? Okay, so for me so far, I would say a good day is like when I'm actually in the classroom and able to work in small groups, because that's the thing I miss most about the classroom is actually working with students, you know, in those small groups and having those relationships with students. So now I get to go into the classroom, and model some lessons for teachers, but also with working with the students. So I look forward actually to I think it's the first week in February, where I'll get to go in again and model a lesson with with the team Well, actually, with the students. And so I would say that's a good day so far that I would say for me as a coach, I love I love it all. But my favorite part is when I get to go in and actually work in those small groups with Yeah, got to get that fix working with students. Yeah. 22:37 So we heard a little bit about candies about you making lists and you're using your calendar. But anything else to add from you, or from Brian about how you get things done? Just logistically, how do you get things done? You know? 22:50 I'm just gonna back up honestly, what Candace shared a nail in my head of everything I taught her so well. 22:59 Fashion never fails, unless you don't do it. I am, you know, somewhat tech savvy, I would like to say, it's I've tried some of the different reminder apps and the calendar apps and the to do lists, but nothing beats for me a sheet of white paper, and a sharpie. It starts off with weak, and this week's date range, and just bullets of the things that I need to get done this week, I find that it's for me, I have a lot of sporadic thoughts about a lot of the different projects going on at the same time. So having this on paper, I often run to the paper and I'll make quick notes about different things that I need to get done. Or if there's a book that I know I want to pull an excerpt from, I can jot it down really fast and come back to it. And so for me, it's the old fashioned to do list. Right now there's one on my desk. And on the wall, there are three sheets have posted chart paper that are layered with the different projects that are going on and checkboxes for each each project and things that need to get done. So having that list sticking to that list, prioritizing that list has always helped me and really making sure I get everything done and prioritizing. I just want to throw this in prioritizing realistically. Like I know what looks on paper to me. I know all the ambitious things I want to get done this week, but also know my level of true commitment to getting everything done. So being able to say you know what, it's okay, if I don't get this entirely done this whole thing done this week. Here's the part that I can do and I can do really well. It's still gonna get me closer to a goal. So that just does it. But prioritizing realistically nice, that analog thing is pretty good with the whole making less How about any case anything else to add? Well, I do find myself I do have lists everywhere but I do find myself often having to use my reminder in my phone just so I do not forget 25:01 Remind me to do such and such at this time, you know, like Brian said, having that paper I have, I have notebooks, the lower at home, you know, just have ideas that come to my mind. And I just have to make sure I get it out and don't forget it. So reminders list, journaling, all of it just helps me 25:22 really stay organized. And I found to like maybe Brian was leading into that as well as like, having that analog like a notebook makes it so when you if you had to go to a screen, all of a sudden some flashes up, you get distracted, and all of a sudden that book you went right down that no, you want to write down, it's just gone. So this is good, that paper is not plugged in. It's kind of nice. So But speaking of being plugged in, where do you go online to find resources? So maybe you have one of those questions, you're going to ask from a teacher and you're like, hey, let me go find that out. Where do you Where do you go? Where do you go to find those things out? Where do you go online to find resources? Oh, I do a lot of like bridges, you cube. The map. And practice book has a lot of like online things that you could use. I have this basically, I have this list of resources 26:11 that I share with teachers. And I always go back to that list. But oh, they engage in New York, the Georgia site. So it's like a list of places that I used to go to, like as my go to places, are you right? So I was thinking about this as us just now I'm really, I think I'd go online most to the professional organizations. So you know, your mte your nctm, you know, we are building our local affiliates. So our local chapter of ncsm, the Mississippi mathematics specialist network, we're looking to make that a place where teachers, educators, leaders can go to find resources. But I generally I start at the professional organizations. And a lot of times those pitstops at their websites will lead me into publications or other websites. And then like Chrome's leading you to the next piece of gold, and so on these professional organization websites, for instance, ncsm has a coaching corner. So it's all things coaching, best case, worst case scenarios, research based articles, modules, position, papers, everything. So really, that's where I find a lot of the resources that I enjoy in print, like MCs MC central action series has just come out the everything you need from mathematics coaching, from nctm and ncsm. And misma gothamist. They Williams, Candice mentioned the math and practice said the progressions document a home from Arizona, I was listening, they are gold, even in their draft forms, okay. I love those. 27:57 It's really, you know, just kind of linking up with the professional organizations and getting the guidance from their that I find most of my most of my resources. Nice. Alright, so maybe stepping a little away from the profession and thinking about what is just something you've been really excited about lately. For example, I would, I was kind of excited about the Packers run, possibly to the Super Bowl. And did very quickly, this past Sunday, but and I'm very excited that my chiefs are headed there. So there we go. There you go. 28:29 Well, just today, I'm very excited that I get to go running after work today because of the weather. You know, it's been a little rainy, rainy, and so I don't get to go running as much as I'd like to. And I'm also excited that this spring, I'll be able to join another tennis team. So that's exciting news for me, oh man, how do I follow joining a new tennis team I 28:53 work related. But for me, right now, every aspect of my life is kind of in my new business. And back in June or July, I really just took a leap of faith to say, I'm gonna step away and try something totally new. I'm gonna take myself from being a teen and the situation I was in back to being a woman and becoming a new baby almost. And so in building book wild about math, I've really just tried to have fun with it in my interactions with teachers. And within the last six to eight months, you know, I've been able to work with teachers from over 30 schools around Mississippi, I've been in New York to facilitate PD. And for me the jet. I'm just excited that I chose to try something new, and I'm sticking with it, and I'm enjoying it. And it's scary and it's fun, and it's exciting, and it's frustrating and it's life. And you know, here I am at this rival age, just trying something new though. 30:00 Every year or everyday grether, just kind of wake up like ready for Okay, what do I want to work on today? What am I going to do? I'm building my website right now and it's gonna be released very so. So the little pieces of news are really what excite me today. So what do you do for fun? How do you bounce things out? I'm a planner, I like things planned. I like to know when things are going to happen. I like my calendar, I like my schedule. And I've gotten to the point where I have to plan to live nail. So I purposefully take time to totally disconnect, from the day to day, things that are happening from the job from the school. And I let myself not be Dr. Buck alter, or Mr. Buck alter, or the math guru, or the math guy. And I'm just Brian, I'm just Brian Christopher, I'm hanging out with my friends. I'm going out to eat on traveling. And it's totally okay to do that. I think sometimes we get so entrenched in our work, that it's hard to turn our brains off, we're always thinking about the next thing that has to be done. We're always thinking about what do I need to send to this person? What do I need to read, there's a constant list going in your head, I encourage people to just take a break, whether it's for 30 minutes, or whether it's for a day, just take a break from it and come back to it, I find that I appreciate my work much more when I've had a chance to kind of walk away from it, do something else, and then come back to the thing that I really do enjoy doing. So you know, I just encourage people to take care of yourself. First, take care of your own Mental Health First, take the day when you need it and plan to live it. Can you see anything to add to that? Well, I was just gonna say I'm very on to like, Brian, just being very intentional about planning the social things that I'm doing in life. Even if there's like a date night with my husband, we have regular Friday night date nights, and being intentional about having the fun times in there. Because like he said, I do get overwhelmed with schoolwork and then work work. And so just planning those times I even wake up early enough in the morning to go work out or do some yoga, stretching or just decompressing from the day, every day at night. So that's kind of how I balance things out. Thank you both for being willing to share your experience and expertise with us. Really appreciate it. And thanks for joining us on the teaching math teaching podcast. So thanks again for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, we hope that you are able to implement something that you just heard and take an opportunity to interact with other math teacher educators.