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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Hello, and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching Podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the association of mathematics, teacher, educators, a community of math teacher, Educators learning to teach math teachers better I'm your Co-host Jennifer, wolf, and joining Me is Co-host Dusty Jones, hey? Dusty!

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Dusty Jones: Hi, Jennifer!

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: So today we're talking with Paulo Tan Paulo is an assistant professor of STEM Education in the department of educator preparation and leadership at the University of Missouri, St. Louis. His research focuses on advancing intersectional justice in and through mathematics, education, centering disabilities.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: This includes analyzing the experiences of multi marginalized knowers and doers of mathematics. Along with their intersectional identities and oppressive forces, he served as a public school, middle and high, a secondary mathematics teacher for 10 years in culturally and linguistically diverse settings in Kansas and Indiana.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: We're talking with Paulo today so that he may share some of his experiences in math, teacher, education, and in his work in humanizing disabilities in mathematics, education. Welcome, Paulo, how are you?

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ptnpn: Hello, I am doing great.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yes, thank you so much. Yeah, so happy to have you here and have this conversation so can you take a minute to introduce yourself beyond what I already shared like? What did we miss?

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ptnpn: Yes, I i'm Paul Tan, and I think an important aspect of who I am and why I do. This work

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ptnpn: is that I am a parent of a disabled person, and throughout the journey from Kevin, who is the person I was speaking about

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ptnpn: from Kindergarten on to now, and he's just about ready to turn 19. We've been experiencing lots, as you can imagine.

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ptnpn: issues with school in particular, with mathematics, education. So that's a big part of who I am in the work that I bring. I'm, also a Chinese American. I am an immigrant to this country. I,

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ptnpn: my family, and I arrived here

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ptnpn: when I was about 11, so I I grew up as a multi-year-older in schools, and was.

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ptnpn: as I think, the experiences of some immigrants that I was. I excelled in mathematics, or I thought I excelled in mathematics, and

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ptnpn: and really liked the subject a lot. That's

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ptnpn: also a big part of who I am. And Why do the things that I do?

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Thank you, Paulo, so much for sharing that so curious. How did you get started teaching math teachers?

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ptnpn: I think I was pushed into it. And this is really interesting because I actually entered the Ph. D. In Math education program based on several factors. I I was in the classroom as as a then secondary math teacher.

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ptnpn: and and became really dissatisfied with my own math teaching. I I knew that I was missing quite a bit of Skills knowledge, and I felt like I need to know more

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ptnpn: at at the same time. My then partner suggested that I I become a medical doctor, and I was like

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ptnpn: why, and my partner was like Well, they make a lot of money because she was working at a, at a, at a hospital in, and got the privilege to know a little bit more about the salaries of folks, and and so my part that mind, then, partner, push me into the medical Doctor Field, and I was like Well.

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ptnpn: maybe that's not the field I want to be in. I actually I could be a doctor in another field. So that was a compromise

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ptnpn: at that. At that time I also was teaching as adjunct at a junior college. and so I really like that work as well, and then, and I app apply to be like a full time

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ptnpn: faculty person. And and I essentially, I

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ptnpn: thought that I got rejected because I didn't have a doctor, and so i'm like, okay, I I need a doctor to just to also be able to teach at, You know, a potential

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ptnpn: new career, if you will. And so those 3

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ptnpn: together came came together, and and then I went to Dr. Susan Gay as as as a a big person there at Amt, and because I was at the I I did my undergraduate at the University of Kansas.

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ptnpn: and and as well as my masters, and in. Dr. Gay was the the math educator at the over Kansas, and I went to Dr. Gay. I was like, hey, I want to enter a doctoral program method. And and can I get into it at the universe? Kansas or Ku?

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ptnpn: And she was like No, go East, and it is kind of like that because she was like, I think there are so many more opportunities at

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ptnpn: in Virgin Maryland, you know, for Delaware, Penn State University University of Georgia, and and it was I mean, it was just amazing, like Whoa

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ptnpn: Method was offering back then, and and probably still is for doctoral students. And so I got the opportunity to, you know, travel there to visit, to learn more about method programs there. And so

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ptnpn: all that is to say, that I I actually ended up at the University of Georgia as a math, the educated doctoral student, and

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ptnpn: and I I actually didn't really know. I mean, I like. I said I had something in mind like, okay, this is what i'm gonna do when I get my Phd. And then I got to work with Chandra Orle, who

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ptnpn: at at 1 point, pulled me in it, said, okay, let's let's work on professional development for math coaches. And I was like what like I I I was like, okay, I and I I couldn't offer much. I I was like I I was a math teacher. I don't know how to

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ptnpn: work and support other math teachers. I

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ptnpn: I I need support myself. And so that's kind of how it started in many ways that I was pushed in to work with math teachers. And and then I continue actually my doctor program at Indiana University, and there I met Cena Kasberg, who also, I think, push me in like, okay, these are the courses you're teaching, and these are

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ptnpn: courses to work with math teachers. And again, I was like You want me to work, my teacher. Still, that's how I started. I was pushed into it.

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ptnpn: but i'm really happy that I am where I am just based on all those experiences.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Well, that's wonderful, and we get to learn so much about the work that you do, and to hear the journey that you've taken to get to where you are now it's just really beautiful.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: What's kind of the like? The best advice you received when you started teaching math teachers, because it sounds like you kind of when a bunch of different places, and got to work with a lot of wonderful people. So what some of the best advice you you received when you started doing this work.

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ptnpn: I think an advice is really

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ptnpn: for me like an embodiment. So how I I mentioned folks like Chandra and Sina, who really embody this again this

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ptnpn: cultivating way of being and

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ptnpn: shaped, I think, who I am, and also shaped what I could pass on

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ptnpn: to others like be a cultivator of

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ptnpn: who they are. And so I think this embodiment also works the other way. In that I I work with seeing a at the time. I was just like

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ptnpn: a enchantre, just amazed on, you know, the knowledge, the deep that knowledge they possess. At the same time they were like

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ptnpn: I I I want to learn from you, and i'm like again, like you want to learn from me like you. You have all this body of knowledge, all of these just strong skills, if you will, in. And so that environment, I think, is really important for us as math educators

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ptnpn: at any stage in our journey. because we we want to be

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ptnpn: cultivators, as well as at the same time be called to these, as as being able to learn from others as as being able to be shaped by others, and so that humility.

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ptnpn: as well as the the way that you know folks

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ptnpn: throughout my journey have have been those I I feel like cultivating

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ptnpn: who I am, and what again, without me, even knowing that I could become something, or that that I had that in me so again, that I, as I feel, like many of us, express that imposter syndrome.

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ptnpn: I I felt that throughout I I feel it sometimes as well currently, but I think when there are folks there in the math Education community who are there to cultivate you, and also reciprocate that. I think that is.

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ptnpn: I think, an embodiment that I I feel like it's a it's a great way that we are, and we operate as a community.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah, I love how you

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: you think about it as embodiment that that idea that, like we're here to learn from and with each other. So how do we cultivate and honor the best in both of us and learn from one another

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: that's just beautiful. Yeah, that is great advice. I love that. I love that advice.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: So when you think about your work in mathematics, teacher, education.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: What's one word you'd like to offer? That helps you center the work that you do with math teachers so often we don't get a lot of time with math teachers right? We might get a semester. We might get a summer doing professional development. So what keeps you grounded like? What's a word that kind of centers you in the the work that you do?

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ptnpn: I would say the word is resistance, and so

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ptnpn: I I think that teachers and students in that at a resistance in their babyly practices, and and sometimes may not name it as such.

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ptnpn: And so in the course work that I do with prospective teachers. It is

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ptnpn: a lot of them will say that we are going against the great I mean I I love how they sum it up for for me like. And my yeah, that that is what we're doing in this class. We're we're challenging

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ptnpn: systems of question. We we're practicing antibiotism. We're practicing anti-racism. We're going against dehumanizing ways of doing mathematics like that only focus on procedural direct deficit ways of of thinking about students and teachers and so on.

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ptnpn: I I really think that will. Resistance really captures

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ptnpn: my work with prospective teachers in particular. and I would say my scholarship as well.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah, I love that resistance. So it's it's in by it's embodied throughout the work that you do, both in the classroom and in your scholarly research work in the writing that you do, too.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: So now, what advice would you offer to someone else starting out in this role? In working with math teachers?

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ptnpn: I think I I will kind of circle back to what I said earlier in that there are a lot of things as someone who's starting out

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ptnpn: that you bring, that you will bring, and so be open to be cultivated as well as in in and just being okay with that, like, okay, finding you a a place you want to be finding out more about. You are developing more about. You are so I think that's important

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ptnpn: there. So many amazing

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ptnpn: folks in our math education community, and you know, making those deep connections, I think is really important, being able to connect as it's. I think I've done

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ptnpn: for

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ptnpn: the work that I do with folks throughout the country just and we are like in many ways we we are not a large community.

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ptnpn: but I think it's important to make some of those connections and really support one another as that embodiment that I shared with you with being a cultivator and a cold. V.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah, it's really their gifts right, and being open to receiving those gifts from others, but also giving those out.

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Dusty Jones: Yeah. And that that reminds me of the story that you told earlier about how.

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Dusty Jones: when you were, I guess were you teaching in the State of Kansas, or in a.

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ptnpn: in the Lawrence area, or where where were you@iwasinactuallykansascitywhichisaboutanhourawayfromsoigrewupinkansascitykansasandwine.county actually attended Summer High School. And

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Dusty Jones: so you're you're saying these words i'm like, oh, yes, so it's ringing bells for me. But when you were looking for a doctoral program. One thing Susan could have said is, yes, come here. We need more. Doctoral students

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Dusty Jones: stay here with us, but but instead she decided to help you, you know. Point, she decide to point you to the others and see what else is going on.

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Dusty Jones: and I just. I see a great

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Dusty Jones: thread coming through what you've experienced, and how you describe this, as you know, helping students also see where they fit in

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Dusty Jones: to the community, what they can bring, and and that doesn't mean that everything has to come from, say for from me. But i'm i'm giving other people some ways to help themselves grow, and If I don't have those resources, then I can say, Well, but look at what these other people are doing. Get learn from them. So that's really great.

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ptnpn: Yeah. And and I I see that so much in in my current work as well as we are constantly

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ptnpn: pushing or pointing, or supporting our students in in so many different ways. And it's I think it's very amazing that how

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ptnpn: things just

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ptnpn: not just, but it it works out in ways like things happen in in ways that we we can't anticipate. I mean, I think that's maybe a a a story of life as well. One thing lead to leads to another, and and then we are the ones that are now in the position that we are doing what

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ptnpn: Dr. Susan Gay did in in directing folks to a place, and I

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ptnpn: actually met with Dr. Gay this past Mte, and we just had this conversation, and and she remember the conversation we had. I'm like you remember that she yeah, I remember telling you it goes somewhere, and and she was like it. Looks like it worked out really Well, I think so. And she was, you know, just so gracious and and and generous is like you're doing some amazing work. And so it was just really nice to to connect with Dr. Gay after

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ptnpn: all these years. All you know the journey that we've been through that I I think that's, I think.

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ptnpn: speaks to

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ptnpn: the community that we have here, and how we are supporting each other, and and how things work in in in, in sort of a cycle in many ways.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Apollo, how do you set boundaries and priorities to get the things done that you need to get done? And and it's still enjoy your life.

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ptnpn: What I like to do as as much as possible is to dictate my own schedule. So, and one thing that

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ptnpn: throughout my experiences and I've I've been through. Jen. I think you capture well a journey.

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ptnpn: or pretty much all of my life.

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ptnpn: And so at at 1 point, and this was a few years ago that in in. Some

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ptnpn: of you may may not be familiar with this, but when you work for certain organizations

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ptnpn: they have like access to your calendar, and so they will schedule things for you like. Oh, I see an opening here. We're gonna have a meeting at this time. It it's so like as like I could at being in both areas. I'm like that's I feel like that's kind of invasive for me.

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ptnpn: But I mean that that was a culture like that's how we work like we need to set meetings. And so this is

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ptnpn: again for efficiency sake. That's how we do things, and I I really dislike that. And so i'm now in the position where I have my calendar back on my own, like no one knows, and that's good, because then I could say

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ptnpn: this meeting. Yes, no.

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ptnpn: I have time, but i'm not going to schedule a meeting here, so I I I want to put as much of that control if you will on me like I want to set that. And and I know, like that, I need

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ptnpn: this. These these are my access needs right. I I need time to

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ptnpn: do some activity, some physical activity, and I will do that. So there's no worry like for me like I will get what I need with family, with activities, with other things and and everything else for me at this point in my life is works around

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ptnpn: like my dedicated work, if you will, or my actual job revolves the activities. So that's how you know it. Doesn't always work out nicely. There are always overlaps, but as much as possible. That's what I try to do.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: That's a good point that you bring up that because there are some organizations where it's just nice. I know in the business world. They do that a lot. Right Here's this: here's this time slots they're open, and so people just schedule you. And it just reminded me of when we have our calendar, just because you have time doesn't mean you're available

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ptnpn: physically, emotionally like. So sometimes we need to block out those times, because, even though the time is there, and that calendar is open.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: You may not be available for that, and that's that's okay, like you. You may need to do those things.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: but it definitely helps to have control of your calendar.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: So can you talk a little bit about your work on humanizing disabilities and mathematics education.

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ptnpn: So my work I i'm gonna

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ptnpn: credit a lot of my work to Cena Kasburg, who I mentioned earlier.

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ptnpn: who really turn me into the field. So my journey

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ptnpn: to me from math education to special education. And so I actually my degrees actually special education. And and Cena started off as my advisor, and continued in in, and ultimately

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ptnpn: became a member of my Dissertation Committee, and in Sina really turned me to this field of equity in math education, which at at that time I had very little knowledge of so

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ptnpn: folks like Danny Martin Roshaw with terrorist and rico. Good thing, I mean. I was like, Whoa! What is this and and and so that really

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ptnpn: made this term for me like from like this. Maybe I would say traditional mathematics, education to like this work in the field of equity in in, and how that is a whole different world in many ways. And so that's I.

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ptnpn: I would say, how I turn into this idea of humanizing disability in mathematics education, because at that time, again, I was really immersed in the feel of special education, really

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ptnpn: working within a lot of those paradigms a lot of those behaviors, Positivist miracle

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ptnpn: paradigms, and then

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ptnpn: that the equity work was was not, did not have much about this ability, although Cena did work with another

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ptnpn: former Doc student.

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ptnpn: who, whose name is Gina Borgioli and Gina, did some really awesome work with Ableism in math education. So I think those

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ptnpn: that work Bestina had with us Gina and and the work of equity in mathematic education

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ptnpn: as well as at the same time. Again, in this journey.

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ptnpn: I was working with somebody who had a strong disability. Studies and education focus, and again, turn me from this special education focus to like a disability studies, education. So all those

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ptnpn: experiences converge for me in in how it became like this idea of humanizing disability in mathematics, education. So

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ptnpn: the person I I I just mentioned with disability Studies is is the name is Kathleen K. Notorious, and she was another, I think, cultivator. She pulled me into like the Great Lakes Equity Center, which is a for federally funded equity Assistance Center.

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ptnpn: and and Kathleen has a lot of a strong orientation for disability studies. And so all these ways of how all these things about. So yeah, that's my work with humanizing math, my education and and I I would say that the work is really in in in really straightforward terms. It's really about calling out the wrongs

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ptnpn: in writing the wrongs. And so here I i'm invoking Octavia E. Butler in in in how that is the work that we do, and so that that's essentially what

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ptnpn: humanizing disability mathematics, education is about

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ptnpn: in, in that these wrongs are right systemic in many ways and in manifest at various levels, such as at the individual level with forces available, is, for example.

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ptnpn: and humanizing disability. Mathematic education is also for me. It's a human rights issue.

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ptnpn: and it it. It extends beyond that education, and it involves in it's for, and it's with, and it's by disabled folks. So

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ptnpn: I think it's it's an anti-ablist in nature. It's intersectional and it's very intentional about centering the full range of disability so I I feel like in math education. We've

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ptnpn: had a lot of focus on one kind of disability which is

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ptnpn: learning disability.

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ptnpn: and we haven't had too much attention on again the full range disabilities of.

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ptnpn: for example, not only the token categories that exist in schools, if you will, but those that

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ptnpn: disabilities that go undiagnosed, or disabilities that are or fluid in nature. So I think that

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ptnpn: range is of all also a big, important aspect that we, as a fuel, need to take

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ptnpn: and consider.

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ptnpn: So yeah, that's that's humanizing disability. Mathematics going up wrong and righting wrongs. And

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ptnpn: I think right. Now, i'm also thinking about dreaming as as another step as it's as it's.

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ptnpn: bringing with those who are most marginalize this. how that can form our work as well

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: like what's possible, If we just kind of like tear down existing structures.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: If we wanted, what would that look like? And going back to that that word resistance.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: right and going. So when I think about your work in humanizing disabilities earlier. You talked about how you have a child

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: with disabilities and and then special education. Wasn't really your focus like you didn't have that kind of

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: throughout before you got your doctorate right? So i'm curious as to like now, seeing all this scholarship, and then being one of the scholars that's doing this work. How is that kind of informed the work that you've done? Not only with teachers, but just with your family.

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ptnpn: I love that question. It's

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ptnpn: the

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ptnpn: it's interesting because I I I was sharing the journey. And you when when I was teaching math at the High School, when I. I mainly taught what was interesting, as I mainly taught

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ptnpn: in remedial courses, for the most part that that was

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ptnpn: where I think in the district I was teaching. They were like, Well, you were.

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ptnpn: You're young, your mail. This is where you could go to help us, and you will be great, and so i'm like fine. Let's let's see what's what happens. And and I actually really enjoyed it in in what was interesting is that I I think a lot of math.

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ptnpn: Former teachers and current teacher will will understand the the math, one which is the high school

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ptnpn: equivalent of the lowest math that you could possibly have in, and that is for for the district. I was working with

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ptnpn: the everybody who, you know, struggle with math, so called, struggle with math. And and so you had 9 tenth, 11 twelfth graders in that class all together.

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ptnpn: and that was also the inclusion class. So you had students with disabilities. Oh, we want to include, since with this village. Okay, let's include them here. So

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ptnpn: I like

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ptnpn: well, that class because of the students that I got to engage with who

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ptnpn: or of of course, not thought of highly from this school's point of view.

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ptnpn: but I got to work with them, and so I I. I connect a lot of the work of special education to that experience of of like. This is what it means, both good and bad, of being included. And so, when I became a parent, I I I felt like that. Was, you know, something that we can do a lot better

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ptnpn: with, and I wanted my child to experience that in school again a a, a.

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ptnpn: a a improved version of that understanding the the processes, because. as a math teacher, I remember attending Iep meetings and and just really

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ptnpn: not having much input just being there signing off. And and that's the experiences as as I I've learned in in my research of a lot of math teachers. And so

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ptnpn: and so my question is is as a parent, as a researcher is is like, what what can we do as math teachers to

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ptnpn: push for better in mathematics, learning, environment for students, with disabilities, as as you mentioned in that, as that that was going to be that was going to be my experience as I was going through my doctor program, knowing that in the upcoming

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ptnpn: 12 years that would be something I would be facing as as a parent. So

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ptnpn: that yeah, that came together. And in reading this different scholarship on inclusive education, on mathematics, equity, I was like we could do this. Po folks right? Let's let's try it and in and then that was very naive, of course, of me to to think that way, because then the forces like

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ptnpn: No, that is not possible. Here we don't do this, and so that that for me became

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ptnpn: a a a a big part of my research. It's like, Why can't we do this? How can we do this? What can we dream about

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ptnpn: for the thriving of all students? Because

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ptnpn: when we miss folks in our mathematics community. Not only do the folks that are missing out in the community, but but those who are in the community. If you will are missing out on that

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ptnpn: brilliance that is not there in conversation, so that that

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ptnpn: to me is how it comes together in in in some way.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: I love that. Yeah. A lot of the work that you all have done is made me really think about. So my sister

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: has a disability, and it is. It was at a time where the students were in self contained classrooms and another building, usually in the basement, right? And then her junior and senior year they decide. Okay? Well, we need to make things more inclusive. So now we're going to put you in

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: what they called mainstream classes, right? And it was just a shock to the system, right? And then I the work that's out there in the research that you all have been doing, and has given me a better language and a lens to understand.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: like what it must have been like for my sister, and to have these conversations with her, and then just opened it up to like

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: the different ways that my sister was not viewed as capable, and the ways that I see her is capable, and the the way that she is mathematically gifted, that just wasn't seen right? And so I really take to heart a lot of the work in Ableism and thinking about inclusivity and sometimes inclusivity. Isn't

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: what's best sometimes, or what they need. So how are we talking with our students like? I think, about one of your articles on thinking about the rights of presence. Right that that co-authoring. So when you brought up Iep like what role do students have

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: right and your role as an advocate for what they feel they need right, and it becomes a conversation about

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: what would my individual education plan look like if I had my voice shared as as part of that.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: and that work to try to try to humanize disability. And in mathematics learning.

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ptnpn: Yeah, I I think what you said there about inclusive education, that that may be the goal. And even though we, we are far from that goal, that even if we do have inclusion for everybody that we still have a lot of what to do. So

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ptnpn: what you mentioned there about rifle presence like.

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ptnpn: I think it's really important to shift our focus that we shouldn't just talk about inclusion because inclusion is, it's like

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ptnpn: problematic in many ways. If we talk about rifle presence and the brilliance. the inherent prevalence of everyone who is

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ptnpn: rightfully part of that community. Then it's it's a very different conversation. And how they offer. for example, they're right. So yeah, I I. I agree with you there, and thank you, Jen, for sharing

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ptnpn: that experience as well.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah. And we'll definitely link in the show notes. The the work that you did with like Kathry a. And Daniel Ryan holds on in your article rightful presence in times of

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: crisis and uprising, and equity and excellence in education, and then the work that on rightful presence that you did with Erica Mason, Alexis Padilla.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: and that work for practicing teachers. Yeah, I just I love that framing of the rightful presence, because it feature it into your work in humanizing disabilities. And I recommend everyone. Go out and and read those articles.

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ptnpn: and when we invite you to

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ptnpn: support us in thinking about rifle presence, because we then thinking about it, we we're I mean rifle presence is, is it's not something I coin. It was something I I I drew on from science educators.

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ptnpn: Angela, Callabrich, Barton, and Edna Tan, who who've done lot of work with rifle presence. And so what we're trying to do as Matt educators is. Try to see. What what does this mean for a field? What can, how can we expand it, and also include

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ptnpn: in center issues with disabilities. Because I think that is something that I think in initially, was not the intention of rifle presence. But we see it as something that can be central to the tenants of rifle presence. So we invite others

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ptnpn: who I want to share and and and want to be part of this work because we yeah, we ask the community again. We we would love to learn from you.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah, I think it's a great framing for thinking about in your work with mathematics, teacher, education, educators, right our pre-service teachers and service teachers like as a general kind of framing of like, how are you? How are you developing the curriculum that you use in your courses, and then go back to your word Resistance, right? So who does this include this is not include.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Whose voices are we centering? Who are we not centering, and also made me think about connections to the tour is right to the learner and the work that Crystal Kalin at Craig is doing, making connections between rightful presence and method. And then the tour is right to the learner just getting getting me to think about those things.

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ptnpn: What I didn't. You took up the invitation there? I just took up the invitation. I was. Hmm. Yeah. So seeing some connections around that that work.

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ptnpn: love.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: So what resources would you recommend for those interested? Learn to learning more about humanizing disabilities in mathematics, education.

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ptnpn: Oh, well, there they are, quite a bit so I would say 2 resources that are a little bit broader, so not not specific to math education, but helps me, and I I use it quite a bit in in my work. And so this is Subini animal, and that mor since 2,018 article.

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ptnpn: The title of it is this great classroom ecology, using practice to dismantle dysfunctional education ecologies. And so this this.

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ptnpn: I think, if if we think about the 3 areas. I think you mentioned one already, Jen: so curriculum, pedagogy and relationships or solidarity. So those 3 areas are central to this idea of like dismantling in. And again, what does that mean for mathematics, education? So we we started to do some work around this

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ptnpn: application if we will, and how we are conceiving of that. And and hopefully, that article will be out soon.

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ptnpn: So that's one resource. I think it's been very helpful for me, and in the what that I do. The other one I i'm gonna go broader here and

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ptnpn: kind of go outside of field of education is a book that I read, you might be familiar with Sammy Shawk, and the the title of the book is called Body Minds Reimagine. And so it really takes a very

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ptnpn: cultural historical view of disability and the future of you on disability. As we talked about here today, Jen. And so I think that is a book again that has me really thinking a lot about disabilities. And and and this idea of dreaming of what's possible. So

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ptnpn: those are resources from outside the fuel.

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ptnpn: if you will the the book that I co-authored with Alexis Padilla, Erica Mason, and James Sheldon this is a 2019, and ctm book humanizing disabilities in mathematics, education forging new path.

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ptnpn: That's something that I I spoke about quite a bit in this podcast, and the what that I've been building from in in thinking more about. So I I think that's a great resource for folks to to just kind of get into who who are just trying to see what

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ptnpn: What is Paul talking about when he's calling all these things out, and and I think the the

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ptnpn: Journal of, or Mathematics Education, 2,017 article I

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ptnpn: co-wrote that with Sina and I shared the story about how seen that help cultivate who I am, and that article really came out of

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ptnpn: was. I'll share this a story about that. That article came out of an

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ptnpn: proposal that was rejected.

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ptnpn: And now it also docs to me. I was like i'm gonna submit your N. Ctm: and she's like, yeah, yeah, let's do it in in in. And she's like this is great, You know. This is how she is like this is great. It got rejected. But that's okay. You know we could do something else with this. And and so the you know, when I,

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ptnpn: after a few years. I kind of circle back to that. And and I asked, You know you want to cool. Write this article. She's like, yeah, I do. And so this is the 2,017 article that was published in June

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ptnpn: Journal of our Mathematics Education. It's it's title calling for research collaborations and use of this ability studies in mathematics, education. So that's another article that I I I think that you know I I Just recently we read, and I was like, yeah, that there there's some great things that I think

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ptnpn: I could still pick up on it for me, even though I co-wrote it. And then there! There are some amazing folks that are doing some amazing things in the field. So I would

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ptnpn: just to name a few that these are folks in our disability, Justice.

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ptnpn: Pm. And a working group.

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ptnpn: Folks like Kathry Yay, Joni Wilson, Alexis, Padia, Rachel Lambert, Jessica Hunt, K. You, Lewis, and we have many many outstanding Doctoral students in that group as well. So

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ptnpn: Katie Westby for one afir Ramero, Alexa Lee Hassan, I mean again, i'm not naming everybody. Just kind of a sample of the many outstanding folks and works that folks can

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ptnpn: follow up with.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Okay, and you mentioned that this was a pme and a working group. So for the folks who are part of Pm. And a. There is a working group that focuses on

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ptnpn: disability, justice. and

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ptnpn: all are welcome to attend and be part of this group we started this group. I think it was 2,016. It would James Sheldon

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ptnpn: and Kyran's started this group and reach out to I think Rachel Lamber at a time, and and me and again I was like what? Why, what do I have to offer? But but again that became part of this cultivating embodiment that I I shared earlier. So that good start of 2,016 we did some really awesome work, and then I think we took a break, and then we just restarted it again this year, and and we we had a a great group this year again. Lots of

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ptnpn: folks. We we've done some great things, and we again our our boom, some

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ptnpn: activism beyond, like we're trying to embody the the work of disability, studies, disability, justice, and in thinking about, just, for example, like accessibility at a conferences. And and so these are some of the issues that we are taking on as a group, and

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ptnpn: and we have a lot of interest. We have a lot of great folks there, and I I think we're doing some really amazing things as a group.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Wonderful! Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us, or

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: just have us put on our radar like to promote like? Do you have any talks coming up, or some folks or organizations, or anything that you'd like to give a shout out to.

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ptnpn: I, I would say, like just

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ptnpn: going along with the theme that we've been sharing today and having this conversation with is this this idea of being a cultivator or a champion like you? You. You may not, for example, join the disability, justice working, and that's okay.

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ptnpn: But but then you, you still are cultivating the work like, for example.

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ptnpn: Jen, you you, and thus the inviting me to this podcast, are you? This is a cultivating the work you're championing the work. So whether it be like a podcast or a

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ptnpn: and that's a panel or a general reviewer like you are cultivating this Work your champions work you. You're you're you're supporting the work of equity at large, and everything that all the intersectionalities that is encompassing equity, including

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ptnpn: disability, and so that, I think is part of for me the charge of the community to to do this. A lot of the issues we face is the opposite, which is people shutting down the word, saying, this is not this. This is not

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ptnpn: enough of this is not enough. That and so shutting down the work is like

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ptnpn: for me. It's it's like i'm promoting the work right, and so I I think that we, I think we all have been dependent on folks

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ptnpn: who have done this for us, and so I I think that's for me is a a. To to be that cultivator to be that champion who

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ptnpn: always been there and continue to to do that.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Yeah. So keep on cultivating in the face of going back to your word resistance, right? So we're facing a lot of resistance in society right now, with a lot of legislation that's coming out, and so

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we need to keep pushing back

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: right and cultivating. That's beautiful.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Well, Paula, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast today. We've learned so much from you, and I know our our listeners are excited to enact and take actions on some things that you shared with us today. So thank you for being here.

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ptnpn: Well, thank you. I really enjoyed this conversation.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: Thanks again for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. If you would like to hear more. Please subscribe to the podcast. We hope that you're able to take action on something that you just heard in an interact with other math teacher Educators also. Did you know that Amte has another podcast, the mathematics teacher, educator, Podcast.

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Jennifer A. Wolfe: the Mte Podcast, the companies, the latest edition of the math teacher, educator, journal, and has authors discuss the work they've submitted for publication to the journal. Find a link to the Mte Podcast and the show notes for this episode