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Hello and thank you for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. The teaching math teaching podcast is sponsored by the Association of mathematics teacher educators. The hosts are Eva anhyzer dusty Jones and I am Joel Amidon. Today we are talking with Mrs. winger who is an assistant professor of mathematics at Georgia Gwinnett. College. We are talking to Eric because of his role in teaching mathematics teachers from his position at Georgia Gwinnett. But also his work beyond Georgia go net in the teaching of math teachers. So welcome Eris. Do you want to take a minute to introduce yourself? Yes, thank you so much for having me. Even Joe, it's just an honor to be here. I am Aaron swinger. And I'm currently living in Georgia, I teach at Georgia Gwinnett. College. I've been there since 2010. A lot of the work, you know that I do there is just teaching college classes. And so I'm teaching a college algebra now to college algebra isn't a calculus, I spent a lot of time doing quantitative literacy courses. And outside of graduate college, I am the mathematical director at hybrid education for greater Atlanta, which is an alternative middle and high school. And then I'm doing a lot of professional development work outside and with teachers who teach mathematics. So ours in your position, I mean, you talked about teaching the college, you know, college math courses, but then thinking about even your role in some of these other spaces. So you know, who are you most like aiming your instruction at? Like, what are you trying to mainly get accomplished with your teaching of teachers? For me, they're really two big questions that I'm interested in. And so it is, the first one is for me, one of the central questions, and it is how is it that people who feel marginalized in everyday society can walk into our classrooms, spaces that we largely control? And with the power we have with our voices to transform, how can we disrupt that marginalization? In other words, how is it that black little girl who has the entire United States, saying things about her every day through generations, can come into our classroom, in our mathematics classroom? And then say, Oh, this place is different from out there? Right? What are the types of things that teachers can do? Who are the types of people that they must become? What are the types of things that we must do with ourselves in order for that to happen? That's one of the big issues. And then the other one is kind of tied to that is, how is it that we can create a mathematical experience for young people, where, regardless of the systemic things that are around us, that tell us that we have to put a number on their performance? And then give that a letter grade? None of these things having units at all? And then in other ways, how is it that a person can get a C in my class and still come out feeling like, oh, my god, that was amazing, right? How do we how do we disrupt these systemic things, and a space in which we're with children for an hour, 15 minutes, and they're in front of us in the space that we can control. And so underlying all of that is a deep belief, that of the power of teachers to transform people's lives, really. And so this work for me, is, in a lot of ways, deeply tied to I mean, I'm here with you now, because I believe that teaching math teachers, and math teachers, and their ability to teach math well is tied to the future of democracy. Right. So that I think that, you know, when I was talking with Ava, and when you had the incredible Mandy Jansen on know, talking about what she was on talking about multiplying fractions, and then you know, Eva, and I were just talking about powers of 10, we are now in a world where this for me is as prescient as ever. We have people who come on the news, and tell us about our world. And they use these numbers to either say that the world is about to end or they say, Oh, no, the world is perfect. I'm in Georgia, by the way for context. So yeah, so people are using fractions and numbers. And so when we say when he talks about understanding powers of 10, and then we hear on the news that 170,000 people are dead, right? So embedded in that is that we must understand what 170,000 means. It is supposed to hit us the way it is supposed to hit us. And therefore she is doing work that is deeply tied to citizenry in our country. And so I believe that and so when Manny's talking about these fractions, people are using rates all the time, right, the President was in this big battle over our fraction with somebody over at axios because he wanted to use a different denominator than somebody else. I don't care who he is, and who's right or who's

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Wrong. The point is that we're talking about fractions. And so now we were in the space where numbers are thrown at us to try and this has always been true. But obviously now it's like, elevated so much. And so, you know, I feel vindicated, because I've always believed this, that I work is tied to the future of this democracy. And I believe that now more than ever, gosh, I love that, you know, one of the things that got me excited was, you know, reading radical equations by Moses is more than calm. And like that the idea of math is our algebra, as he put it as a gatekeeper to citizenship. Right? And like, how are we denying it and thinking about the, the opportunity gaps that exists within classrooms, and then even and even thinking like those, you're just talking about, you know, number sense, right? And, you know, we're talking thrown out a number like 171,000, like throwing that number out. And like, we can actually feel the power of one probably better than more than we can then 171,000. Because we locally we we lost a teacher, to COVID someone from a local school, and just like how that sent ripples through a community, but then you throw a number like hundreds anyway, and people are almost like numb to it. It's like, right, there's something there and no, in that power between those two and like, how do we accentuate that? Yes, big number. And I would offer that we are not numb to it. Because to be numb to it means that we at some point felt it is not clear to me, Do you ever feel 171,000? And so and I think, to your point, that when we hear 171,000, the first thing we need to do is pause. I mean, because I think that we hear numbers, and then we just move on to the next thing. And then we have to hear 171,000 or by the way, $2.5 trillion.

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We need to hear these things, you know, in terms of how much money was given out to people, and to say, Wait, what does that mean? Let me go find Ava's work. So I can figure out what this means. Right? Yeah. So that type of thing. And so and also, you know, as a particularly for me, this hits as a black person in society, because we in a lot of ways, we have this battle over literacy. Right? I mean, and so I just feel like this is quantitative literacy is just a mirror of that. And I feel like, you know, this society has decided that we're going to try and make sure that 95% of the people can read, right, but then when what is the equivalent on the quantitative literacy piece, that's why I feel like you know, teaching math teachers and math teachers in general, are tied to our freedom in a lot of ways.

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I agree. And I've been doing some looking in into concepts like numeracy is what they call it in England when you can to understand your world. And I feel like when we go into classrooms, that it's hard to see where that happens. Because even in classrooms that get designated as great math learning environments, right? Sometimes it's not clear. How is this applicable for me to understand the world. So I do think there's a lot of work that needs to be done for all of us to figure out. And I think the numbers are in, I wasn't prepared to share this. But I think the numbers are that less than half of the people in the United States are at proficient, in number sense, oh, no mercy. And then if you think about us listening to the news, and I'm just imagining somebody in a few years listening to this podcast, contextualizing the 170,000 refers to the number of deaths that we have due to COVID currently. And then I've been writing little notes about the number of COVID cases in the United States. And I remember when I wrote about 1 million, and then two, and then three, and then five. And it's this idea of exponential growth. And what that means is really hard, even for people who are good at math, to really understand and that's changing our life right now. And then the other thing that I think is important is if we want to look at our country that we currently live in, we happen to have a quarter of the world's Corona cases. But we only have about a fifth of the world population. Yeah, so there are things that you know, like that never gets put together. And you need to understand these things to kind of understand this is not okay, this is not how it needs to be there's something happening. Now, that's powerful. And I would offer that I'm also in the space of getting more louder with my voice for all sorts of reasons. And so I struggle now with so I want to be consistent. So if I believe in the power of teachers, and I believe

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In, you know that math teaching is tied to the future by democracy, then I must offer a loving critique of our inability to bring this to the classroom because, and this, I guess this has also happened to me. But now it for whatever reason, it's become clear to me, I know when I hear a fraction. And I know when I hear mathematics, right, and so for me, it becomes clear for me how I bring that to the classroom, even if it's anecdotal. So I've been thinking about really, how is it that we make this transition to really bring this into the space of the classroom? And I don't have the answer to that. I think that unfortunately, that's still an unsolved problem, right about how to really bring what what we hear in the news the night before, to the class next week, and on that type of turn of the dime thing. But I'm getting to a place where I feel it should be a part of our job as teachers to talk about these types of things. So in essence, you're trying to make sense of this problem and persevere in solving it is we go from our Standards for Mathematical Practice, Common Core, you know, and so like, I love that idea, the loving critique, I mean, and also just humility is saying, like, I don't have the answers yet. But like, let's think about this together. And let's keep moving forward on it rather than, well, that's just wrong. Versus like, loving critique says, Hey, you know what? It might be? We're not there yet. And so how do we keep moving together, and it's, and that's where that I like that idea of a loving critique. That's the way the work. I'm not an expert. I wouldn't call myself an expert in anything at this point, right. But I do know this, I'm a believer in our collective experiences, when brought together, it can be world changing, I believe that. And so in these professional developments, and in these conversations, it is about, let's all just offer what we got into this big pot. And we'll put the ingredients together. And I think it's gonna taste great. But we just we have to do that first. And you know, it's hard to say things and admit stuff. But the answer is somewhere in our collective experience. I'm a believer of that, what we just talked about, right? You, you started, in the beginning, talking about thinking how black girl could feel loved and in a classroom. And now you're talking about bringing in yesterday's news into your classroom? and wondering if you could spend a little time talking about how those work together? Or what is it exactly how do we? So how do we bring together the fact that we want all students to feel loved in our classrooms, and seen and not some students seen as less than others? And in math, we're particularly good at doing that. How do we combine that with our foot? If we look at our current situation where violence against black families is constantly under news? How do we bring that in? And have this community that students feel seen and loved? and safe? That's right now, that's the question. I'll start with saying that the way that I have done it, right, the way that I've tried, I've made steps forward in this process, which is a lifelong process is to start with acknowledging, right, and so that I have spent, you know, 15 to 20 years privileging and holding up white men in my mathematics classrooms. And so, you know, that means that there have been tons and tons of people of color who have rendered invisible in my classroom, I've said this for the last five or six years, it has gotten a little bit easier to say. But it's a requirement for me to say, in order for me to make any progress. So for me in a lot of ways, acknowledging that we are a part of this problem, when we are not actively calling it out every single day of our lives, right that, that we have to keep fighting against this. And when we're not, it's one of these things that the status quo As it stands, is consistently pushing against us. And so we always, always, always, always have to be pushing back. And if we're not, we are part of the problem. And so starting off with just saying, Okay, I'm a part of this problem. Right is really, for me the first step, and then after that, right, it really is about having some hard, hard conversations, because and not with students yet but with allies, as we get educated about a number of different issues. And so for me, the challenge for me in particular, the challenge is my personal challenges. How is it that white women and young black boys navigate an educational space in the context of the United States of America, where black men have been told for centuries by white, white

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Women are particular white women have been told about black men for centuries in this country about certain things and how this passes online. And so this bridge is a hard bridge to cross. And but it requires that we have hard conversations, we get educated, we have personal transformation. And so all that stuff is way, way at the top and hard to get to. And so a lot of my work these days is about what are the pragmatic things that we can do? Like, what are the policies? And what are the norms in the classroom that we can at least you know, create a spark and a child that was not there before? So in the hard, hard question of how, if you're teaching in the hood, and something happens last night, you know, in the hood, and then neighborhoods and then you got a bunch of kids coming in, right, then we have to find the words to acknowledge that you know, this happened, and this might be impactful to their lives. Right. So because to be silent about tragedy, that affects your students, is to render their feelings invisible, right. And so we have to be the adults that we are to say, oh, and again, only you will know the right phrasing for your children in your classroom. But to say somehow, oh, I heard about yesterday, we can take a moment to just acknowledge that I'm working through that, whatever it is. But what we are figuring out particularly now in the last few months in this country is that silence is no longer we're finally figuring out that silence is no longer the way to go. So I've not answered your question, because this is the question that we all and I don't have the answer. But for me, in my small little walk, it's been acknowledgement. And it's been going towards the hard places. So that for me in the biggest sense in a lot of this is about comfort, right, that now my transformation from a mathematician coming out of Carnegie Mellon to becoming a teacher at Emory Henry college, to becoming a teacher who's deeply interested in equity, and social justice now has been tied to consistently becoming more and more uncomfortable. Because when I was the mathematician to go teach, it was all about me, when I was the mathematician, you know, go teach precalculus or calculus, again, I was at the center. But then when my jobs switch to be, Oh, actually, this is about 25 people, and I've got to make sure that 25 people feel valued in the next hour and a half. And if I don't do that, then I'm not doing my job, then all of a sudden, I became super uncomfortable, right? Because, like, that's hard, right? And so having that transition was important for me. So that's just my take, start with acknowledgement. And then wherever, if you're feeling comfortable in your work, you need to start to find some, you know, discomfort in the heart questions, because you might in your comfort, your comfort is tied to somebody not being validated, processing, acknowledgement, and finally discard. Those are two things. I mean, I think as you're saying, You're talking, you're saying don't have all the answers, but these are things that I've put out there as things that I can do and move forward with. And I like both never even thinking about those teachers that are finding, like, Oh, I'm in the groove now, like, I know exactly how to do but you know, in that being in the groove, like what, what are the things that they're, you know, seen within their own practice that, you know, eventually they rub up against something like there's something that where someone has been marginalized someone is, yeah, you know, brilliance is not being highlighted. So you don't like, those are those things out there that, then it's it comes back to that acknowledgement. And then Okay, now, I got to go wade into a space where I'm not comfortable anymore. Yeah, no, it's tough, because you look, everybody. Everyone wants to go get comfortable, but I'm suggesting that in a lot of ways, you know, we should never be in the groove. Right there. Yeah. I mean, because what is the groove? Right? Yeah. What is that? Yeah. I mean, it's like, again, well, for me, let me I think, thank you for saying that. Because, for me, it's so I'm allergic to comfort at this point. And so when I hear you know, being in the groove, I feel like okay, someone's settled. They're like, Okay, I got this now, and you never got this. Like, we never and so this is why this is part of the work that I've been doing is to unfortunately, it's like, it's like the matrix, right? You just you take one pill you one way you take the other pill, you got a long struggle. And so unfortunately, I've taken the right or wrong pill, however, yeah, but I've taken the one that says that every day, I've got to figure out this impossibly hard problem. And it's this thing, right? So and part of that the reason why that's important is because that ties in to my change and identity. Right? Because you know, my searching for the discovered my searching for trying to figure out how is it and I go into class every day and I fail because I know that

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I didn't reach Stella today, right? Because I know because I have not overcome some things right. And so but to try and just be better every day is what I could hope to be. But that's tied to me deciding that that's who I want it to be as a teacher, well, that then gives me something. So like, okay, the stuff that you're saying, era's and, you know, and thank you for Eva for prompting the question. You know, it is inspiring, right? As people like, are getting fired up and like thinking like, maybe I am a little bit comfortable. Maybe I am in a group, and maybe I need to question that. What does that look like? So what would be some advice that you'd have for somebody in moving forward? And like, okay, there's some energy there, right? They want they want to get out of that groove? Yeah. What advice would you have for them? Well, yes. So the first question you got to ask is Who? Who? So now, first of all, yeah, in every decision you make in the classroom to then ask Who? Who might be left out here? Right, if when I decide to teach this particular way, who might? Who's going to be impacted the most positively and negatively? Right? So then, so for me, it's been phrased in, I don't teach math anymore. I stopped teaching math A long time ago, I teach people now. Right, so so becoming, so people over content is a short way of putting it right. So but why I have gravitated towards math teacher education has been because that group of people has put people over discipline, a lot more than the mathematicians that I've come from, when obviously, that's another 15 hour podcast time. But yeah, so I'm gonna believe in a lot of ways that that's not so much of a problem putting people over the content in this space, but it still needs to be checked off, right? That you're thinking about, how are people being impacted by what's happening with every decision I make in the classroom, and then again, going back to the acknowledgement that I have not done, the great service for some students, there are some students, I've had to go back and pull the rug out, or the or move aside the curtain and see all the people that are left out, because the four or five people that went off to college had the high GPA, I was using those people as the standard and the measure of how well I was doing, when in fact, I had all these other people who were not getting my attention, who weren't, you know, who I had made excuses for why they were not giving, getting my full love in the classroom. And so, again, acknowledging that things have been great in some spaces, but there's a lot of work to be done, as well. And so that requires a lot of personal admission. Right? Because you keep By the way, you cannot do this work, if you think you're doing a fantastic job. Yeah, I mean, if you think you're perfect, but if you think you're perfect, then you can't do this work is only when you realize that the flaws and the holes that you have in your practice might be tied to people not, you know, engaging with the greatest subject in the history of people. We can find me on that. Yeah, yeah.

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So I mean, as you've, you know, waited in the space of teaching math teachers, is there anything that you could point to like some, like golden nugget of advice that you received in doing this work in working with teachers? I don't know, if I gotten in vise as much as I've just learned to just be quiet. Although this might this thing might be in contradiction today, this bucket, but like, Yeah, no, I've just, I think in my first few professional developments, like I did most of the talking, and now it's just like, because when you have for me, one of the highlights of my work is to be in a room with 35 teachers, really, who are willing to talk about their experience and what they go through and how they manage. Because that's gold. He was on my golden that all of that go. Yeah, I mean, cuz you just, you just if you create the space, right? And have them just talk openly, honestly, about the struggles the triumphs, then yeah, I'm always overwhelmed and and all that. So it really is just be quiet and listen, and a lot of ways that was gold. I mean, someone said that to me, and like this idea of going into a space and listening and hearing what people have to say and because what are you talking about, if you don't even know if you're not even take an attempt to build a relationship with those that you're working with that you're not even acknowledging their expertise and their experiences and Eris would make a good day for you. And you might have already touched on this a little bit, but in your profession, give it give some give an example. At this point, I've been thinking about this particular question, but it is just it is just connecting with people really, I mean, whether it's my daughter or my wife, in the profession, exact in particular, the job for me the job is connecting to people. And so if you know I can get three or four students that I've had

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had a conversation with or that, who improves their connection with mathematics or get something that didn't get before. So if we're creating connections that are positive, then I'm all for that. And so again, the problem is that, you know, I can't do that with 25 people at once. But the hope is that these four or five people span the whole class over a semester, and we get to rotate people out about who gets my attention, you know, deeply that way. But it is about making connections, right? If I'm making good connections with people, students, or if they're making connections, you know, tied to mathematics, then that's a good day for me. Have you started teaching yet? for the school year? I have? Yeah. And so online or in person? Well, yeah, so again, I'm in Georgia. So we're in a space where, and I'm gonna try and keep it together here. But we're in a space where we've been asked, we've been told to go back to class. And so we've been required to meet with our students 25% of the time. So I have two college algebras. And so they each have 31 students in them. And so me, I have the class open for eight people to come every four days, right, the center thing, and that's wrong. I mean, I should not be going to this class at all. And I struggle, because I don't believe that there's enough resistance to this. And it really has hurt my optimism. Because if we're not going to fight back against this, something that is clearly wrong, something that is tied to money, then I don't know when we're ever going to stand up and be like, we are not doing this. Because we know what the consequences are right? The consequences are that people will get sick, some people will die. And this for me is the test that I personally am failing. And then you know, a lot of my colleagues in this state are failing, because it's just wrong. So I do know that my colleagues are doing tons of subversive things, to make sure that everybody is safe, and so forth. But you know, I have heroes that are Cornel West, Martin Luther King, Jr, Malcolm X. These are people who I worry that would be disappointed in me. So these are such incredibly hard times. Yes. Yeah. Figure out what, where and how to do the right thing? Oh, my God. Yes. Right. Yeah. I'm just in the tradition of people who, when you read about your heroes, they of course, no matter how you do it, they get amplified to be more than just human. And so when I read about, oh, what these people did this is like, Well, why is it I guess I get amplified even more because then you realize how hard it is to actually go into your boss's office and say dammit, I'm not doing this, right. Like it is way harder than you realize, to do something like that. I grew up in Germany, and my family is Jewish. So I am Jewish. And I've always wondered how people could let that happen. And living in the United States now. I'm seeing how things can happen. Yes, if you are fighting against them, and don't agree with them, and it's reshaped a little bit of my understanding of how some of these things can happen, even though we know I've had the exact same feeling. Absolutely, absolutely. Because I've had to obviously, from what I've just said, I've had to somehow rectify, you know, why, what I know to be right, and my actions. And so yeah, I mean, I thought about that particular example that you just brought up, obviously, it's way more personal for you. But now that example came up for me as well. Like, now I get, you know, how we can roll through every day with something wrong, clearly in our faces. And obviously, I have my own walk in this country with black people as well. So I've had that exact same feeling really?

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Is that balance? Yeah, between, like, how do I mean, like, you know, just thinking I've had my first week with students here and, um, you know, their side, they want to be a part of this profession. In the same time, you've seen, you know, different stories, and I think locally for us, it's been a little bit better, but still, teachers being put into positions that are just like you said, these tough spots where Yes, what do we do? Right, right. What we do? Yeah, yeah. And there are two things there. So again, I in doing this professional development, I've just decided to just come with it. So the spots aren't tough. They're just wrong. That's my end. So that's my thing. Yeah, they just should we should not be putting teachers in this space like this. We should be putting anybody in this space like that.

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That's in particular. And then the other thing is, yeah, I mean, I struggle because it feels like we people have been put in similar positions before we have the blueprint for what to do. It is just that, because of education, this that isn't been passed on to us about, about how to resist is not a part of our everyday being in the United States to to be the resistors. And to push back, I think that we've just been conditioned to do what the boss says, way too much. But there is a tradition, in our country, in the world of resisting when stuff is wrong. It For Me, and a lot of ways just reminds us that this is not in our educational system to do that. Right, that we are not taught as children to here's how you resist, right? ABCD and E. Can you imagine how things would be different if we were all taught? The, you know, tenants of resistance in you know, against oppressors. Right? So, yeah, and even at a smaller scale, coming back to what you said earlier, the importance of bringing in and helping students understand what is happening. Yes. Right. So if something happens, like currently we find ourselves in a space where yet again, some tragedy happened this week. Yeah. And a lot of teachers are starting school. Yes. And I haven't get first week with their students. And how do you negotiate that it? You know, like, Yes, yeah, no, that's that. Yeah. That is the that is the question. I mean, yeah. But summarizing what you said, I feel like there's a few lessons in there. For me. So I'm, this went a little bit more personal than our podcasts usually go. But I think, like definitely speaking up about things and not ignoring them is one of the things I'm just paraphrasing what you're

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bringing them in the classroom, trying to connect with all your students not taking out the easy way and saying, Oh, well, that students just not interested or there's nothing you can do. I feel like that is good to hear and hear over and over again, because that is not a habit that we have in our classrooms yet. And I think some of us are trying to do that. But it's Yes, it's not established. And even though the numbers make it easier now in math to do that math isn't the first subject you would think about a teacher saying, oh, let's deconstruct.

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Yes, yes. But doing my own, I got my little posted here that I wrote down some things and just seeing like, how do we go from here, right. And just thinking about, like, the things that you put on airs, like thinking about the whole idea about acknowledgement, right? Like an analogy, not only area within yourself, but also within the situation that you like, you just said, like, this is wrong, right? And seeking that discomfort and like, wait, I mean, again, we could just, you know, go with the status quo. And like, well, that's how it is. That's what like you said, like, that's what the boss says to do. But versus seeking discomfort would be like, Well, how do we, how do we wade into this? How do we challenge this? And then even having that priority of people over content, right, that people over content that you said before, as well. And like those three things, if we can do those things, and as a collective, as an organization, you know, even think about associated mathematics, teacher educators and interact with each other. It's something we say at the end of every podcast episode, that's something like, that's why we have this community, right. We have this community in order to let's get uncomfortable together and thinking about what do we as a collective have to say you're not just as some statement written, but as some actual actions? Yes. Yes. For the sake of our democracy, for the sake of our democracy. Yes, that's right. The add that piece on at the end? Absolutely. Did you have anything else that you wanted to add anything to promote? For the podcast, anything you want to any resources out there you wanted to point people to, you can always read how to be anti racist, and for me is a power privilege and difference by I think it's Alan something daelin Johnson, I think that book changed my life. I'm still working on my ableism. I learned that from him in that book. But yeah, just get Yeah, just get educated. There's just ways to be educated about how you're positioned as a teacher in this world. And that that positioning is in conflict with the positioning of some of your children unless you decide to change it. Right. I mean, absolutely. All right. Well, thank you, Iris, for joining us. And thanks again, for listening to the teaching math teaching podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, we hope that you're able to implement something you just heard about. So

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those principles that we mentioned and then take an opportunity to interact with other mathematics teacher educators.