[00:00:00] Katherine Druckman: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Reality 2.0. I'm Katherine Druckman. Doc is out traveling, so Shawn Powers and I are holding down the fort over here. [00:00:12] Shawn Powers: That's right. I'm the store brand Doc [00:00:15] Katherine Druckman: Not at all. No, I don't think you were not, uh, equivalent in, in any, yeah, no, that's . I'm trying think of something witty here, but No, you're so different and that's exactly why it works so well when [00:00:27] Shawn Powers: Yeah, nobody will confuse me for Doc. Like, oh, what's the, what's that guy in the podcast? He always has like wisdom. Shawn? No, not Shawn. [00:00:37] Katherine Druckman: It's too bad we don't use the video because then you could be the guy with the green hair. [00:00:41] Shawn Powers: I could, yeah. Yeah. I wonder if green hair. mean this, [00:00:44] Katherine Druckman: like brush my hair and stuff, and then we'll, do video something, but I don't know. But hey, that kind of is, leads us into what I think we're gonna talk about today, or what we're gonna start with. You can find Shawn on video and many, many places, but really just mostly YouTube. [00:00:59] Shawn Powers: Yeah. And the hair is part of it, right? [00:01:01] Katherine Druckman: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, it's easy to identify your YouTube thumbnails pretty, you know, unless they're the old ones, but that's a whole other thing. So Shawn has been doing YouTube videos for a very long time, YouTube training videos [00:01:14] Shawn Powers: it took like a decade break, which isn't great for engagement. , [00:01:17] Katherine Druckman: yeah [00:01:19] Shawn Powers: no. But like, yeah, and like Linnux Journal made videos. [00:01:22] Katherine Druckman: yeah, I was gonna say, yeah if you followed us that this long, you may remember the Linux Journal Gadget Guy videos, which were awesome and the tech tip of the day, which were equally awesome. I honestly ba I mean this is a long time ago now it's over 10 years, 15 years. I know. Um, I learned a lot of things early on about. You know, just basic Linux SysAdmin skills, bash scripting, all of these things. I learned those from your videos. Like I learned as I was there, , like, I'm like, oh, hey Sean, what are you doing in a video about today? Because I was, you know, I was fairly new. When I started back in 2007, know, I had some web development skills and stuff like that, but a lot of like basic Linux skills that I just didn't have. So anyway, so Sean, Sean was my answer to that problem and still is to be honest [00:02:07] Shawn Powers: sorry. No, [00:02:09] Katherine Druckman: No, no, no. It's great. [00:02:10] Shawn Powers: It's fun. I, I mean, all jokes, all self-deprecating jokes aside, I really do like teaching Linux. I, and, um, and that's, so that's why, that's why I'm doing YouTube again, uh, because I'm no longer a professional trainer like that. That's why I took the 10 year whatever break is I was a, a professional trainer and I couldn't, like, compete with my own stuff for another company. And so I, I just didn't make videos that anybody who wasn't a subscriber to the company who hired me, uh, would buy. And so, Now I am making videos again, and I love it. I do. It's, um, I love being able to offer kind of the same thing we did at Linux Journal where I'm just making videos to help people enjoy using Linux. I, I hate that, uh, Linux, uh, not just Linux. Technology kind of has this like learning curve that intimidates so many people and then it bothers me cuz if I can do it, my goodness, anybody can do. [00:03:06] Katherine Druckman: yeah. that is a little self-deprecating, but. I'll, I'll, I'll allow it [00:03:11] Shawn Powers: Fair enough [00:03:11] Katherine Druckman: no it's true I feel the same way. I'm like, but if I can figure this out, you can too, and let me help you. I mean, that's a, that's a good place to start from I think when you're, when you're teaching something somebody about, you know, basic technical skills. I think it's important to mention here, and, and this is something that I've been really interested in following your recent video journey, the, the impact that you have on people a lot of people don't realize, especially if you've been in technology for a long time, a lot of people don't necessarily realize the impact you can have on somebody's life or their earning potential by teaching them some know Linux access, admin skills, programming skills. All of these things we take, we kinda take it for granted. We've been doing this for, for a very long time, but I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that, about how you kind of view your outreach and, and, and the impact that you have. [00:03:56] Shawn Powers: Yeah, and I'll, you know, this is, this is tougher for me. People might realize I'm not good about, uh, talking pleasantly about myself, but, uh, probably what sparked that question. Uh, I mean, I, I literally screenshotted a comment that I got in one of my YouTube videos and like shared it with our, our little group of post Linux journal [00:04:14] Katherine Druckman: in exile. [00:04:16] Shawn Powers: Of friends or whatever, because yeah, it was somebody, and I don't know what country they were from. But saying that my videos, uh, changed their ability to get a job and like feed their family, and it was, you know, a comment, just gratefulness. It was, yeah, it was, I mean, I got choked up a little because ultimately that's what I hoped to accomplish. It would probably be better for me, uh, personally if I was more financially driven. You know, like if I, if I wanted to make videos so that I could, uh, you know, Drum up more money and sales and yeah. But while I need to eat food and live indoors , it's, it's not what motivates me. It is the, uh, changing people's lives and, and getting them, uh, giving them choices. I, I think that's the really more than like changing people's lives. Changing people's lives is, uh, Sounds kind of like a, you know, pie in the sky kind of thing. But, uh, giving people choices, that's ultimately what I hope to do, is that if people can learn all the challenging things that might be getting in their way of even finding out what they might enjoy, uh, I, I want to get that outta their way so that they can have some choices and what they do. So, yeah [00:05:30] Katherine Druckman: I I, I, think it's really important and, um, know, it's the same kind of initiatives we see even, you know, around the world, but also here in the us um, you know, there are a lot of initiatives getting young people to code. There initiatives to get, getting, people from underrepresented groups, girls, pick a type of kid. And there is some program to teach them to code, right? I particularly enjoy learning about the programs for young women because , as somebody who was young a few decades ago, I [00:06:02] Shawn Powers: reason. I mean, you know, I have three girls, so Me too, for a reason [00:06:06] Katherine Druckman: I never felt, let's say, guided into technology. I came here very much on my own because probably fomo, , I felt like I was missing out on some really cool stuff because I, I felt in many ways I was not pushed in that direction. I studied more feminine things or something or I don't even know [00:06:24] Shawn Powers: we, can we share your degree? I mean, [00:06:26] Katherine Druckman: Yeah I have an art degree. let, I mean, sh let's, what just happened? Sean's lights are [00:06:32] Shawn Powers: yeah. Motion. Motion detection. And moving [00:06:35] Katherine Druckman: But yeah I, I um, so it's funny. Well, I mean, if we wanna go there, I, I was very interested in science because I felt I was actually, you know, kind of guided in that direction by many, you know, my teachers and, and others. So I, I was very interested in chemistry in particular. I went to college thinking I was going to be a chemistry major, maybe, you know, kind of med school. And then I quickly decided that that was a terrible idea, and I. At some point realized I didn't want to do anything that required, I loved the subject, but there was nothing I wanted to do that required that degree. And then I had a bit of an identity crisis. And, uh, I think I, anyway, I grad, I switched, and I, I studied art. I enjoyed things that were about making things process intensive art, printmaking, photography, lithography, like, you know, sculpture. Anything that was really making. And I think that kind of, if you think about it in those terms, I think it kind of makes sense that I ended up where I am. [00:07:26] Shawn Powers: point. Yeah [00:07:27] Katherine Druckman: yeah [00:07:28] Shawn Powers: be clear, I am certainly not, not bashing the arts as a, as a career [00:07:32] Katherine Druckman: but a it's a, non-standard path, for sure [00:07:35] Shawn Powers: Yeah. It's a non-standard path to, yeah. To, to where you are now. I think [00:07:39] Katherine Druckman: Yeah exactly. So, but this is, again, a million years ago. So , a lot of things happened in between, I suppose. But anyway, but, but yeah. You know, I, in retrospect, had, I been exposed to that type of education or these types of initiatives that were focused on getting younger girls to learn to code, maybe I would've had a quicker path or, or, or maybe not. Maybe I would've just done, you know, my own thing no matter what. But it, but it is an, it's an interesting, I'm glad that there are kids now that have that opportunity, [00:08:09] Shawn Powers: Yeah. [00:08:10] Katherine Druckman: to them in that way. [00:08:11] Shawn Powers: Yeah. And I mean, love it or hate it. YouTube is a shockingly, uh, accessible way to get information and along with, you know, helpful, good information comes, you know, banal, whatever, uh, entertainment stuff too. But, uh, that's actually one of the things that fascinates me about. YouTube specifically, but, uh, the internet in general, I guess it's a generality, but the, but the YouTube, um, specifically for me, because I like to make video on, you know, I like being on camera, uh, is an interesting way to be able to reach. People who would otherwise absolutely not have any path to me helping them learn crazy tech things. Right. I mean, I, I, I cannot see anyway, apart from like if I were to write a traditional book, but, you know, a book is a form of media that is just, you know, older and different. This is like this new media that reaches everywhere and, and is, is faster. So I'm excited about YouTube, but you know, we talked a little bit about, about this before the podcast even. Still reaching people is difficult, especially if you don't want to be creepy about it. [00:09:21] Katherine Druckman: Yes frustrating. [00:09:23] Shawn Powers: Yeah. So here, here's a, here's an example [00:09:25] Katherine Druckman: Internet. [00:09:26] Shawn Powers: Yeah. I know, right? Uh, here, here's an example on, uh, there are some of my YouTube subscribers who, um, are very active. Like I do a, a live stream every Sunday and I try to have a weekend assignment where they like learn stuff and then go over the solution live. Uh, a couple weeks ago, somebody who had been very involved in my channel and commenting on a lot of videos and interacting in the live streams said, wow, you really sh It would be great if you had like a, like a complete course or something that you could push, and I, I thought they were kidding. Because I, I have a complete Linux Essentials course, you know, from stem to stern. It's the complete thing to prepare you for, uh, the, the training to get a Linux essential certification if you want. And this person who was like, not only subscribed, but like actively involved in my channel, I had no idea. And so I'm thinking, wow, I am doing a terrible job of pushing stuff that I already have. And so, uh, just this week I'm like, okay, I also have a, it. . I have a hard time calling it a course, but it's a playlist of Bash 101, right? Like bash scripting. I think Bash scripting is an awesome way to get into, uh, programming development system administration. It's kinda like, you know, the Swiss, one of the Swiss Army Yeah. It's just great. And so I'm like, well, you know, this is something I should push. Probably nobody who's even subscribed and actively involved knows that this exists on my channel because it was like from six months ago or something. And so I'm like, okay, so how do I do this? I can post links on social. , which I did. That's actually, you know, the, the extent of what I did. And I thought, if I want this to, you know, this, this resource for people that cost them nothing but will help them and then potentially help me with, you know, views on YouTube and spreading the word and, you know, growing. What's the best way to do that? Sadly, probably targeted advertising. And how creepy does that feel? I mean, I, I don't know of a great solution, uh, to, to. Less creepily do that. I mean, uh, maybe you know this, maybe somebody who's listening knows what is a great not creepy way to advertise that sort of a thing. I mean, again, willing to pay some money for it because eventually if people come to my YouTube channel, it might, you know, probably mean revenue for me as well, uh, to pay that off. But I don't know of a great way to do that. [00:11:49] Katherine Druckman: Well, I can think of a, I can think of one great way, and one is being here and talking to people on podcasts, but but [00:11:58] Shawn Powers: in the show notes. [00:11:59] Katherine Druckman: Yes, exactly. I I will link to Sean's video in, in the notes. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, I think. I think that's one way, but I think it's, it's kind of an old school approach, right? It's direct. It's direct directly. It's not relying on an ad network, it's just find, trying to find the people you wanna talk to and talking to them, right? So, so you can do it on podcasts, you could do it, you know, uh, an interesting tech blog and just message the blogger and say, Hey, if I give you x amount of, of this, will you put a little square a a link back to my, to my thing? You know, I think going back to the way things were before highly targeted advertising became the rule. That's my opinion. That's what I think people need to do more of. Sponsorship, communication, you know, just talk to each other like people like we used to, display advertising. I want to sell you a, new and it's 1960. I put it in a magazine, , A lifestyle magazine. And I put it next to the article about cooking, right? We've done this before. we surely we as humans know how to do this. [00:13:08] Shawn Powers: So I'm putting you on the spot here, and it's okay if, if you don't know, are there ways to purchase ads that aren't creepily targeted, but just like context based sort of thing? Like, I mean, you know, placing ads on like tech blogs for, you know, like a Bash 1 0 1 course or whatever. Uh, without using a, you know, I mean without just crippling your own [00:13:31] Katherine Druckman: Well, there certainly used to be, I we we accepted ads that way. We, we would then run them through the ad server on our own. But they were not networked ads. They were, I mean when I say we used to be, I mean, I mean Linux Journal, where they, you know, the, the advertiser supplied us their artwork and, you know, we loaded it up with a URL and. and yes, we were using again, an ad server to, to do it, but it was not, it was not targeted in the same way. It was only, it was targeted and then, then that they wanted to reach our readers. and there that that must still be a thing. I mean, I would hope, but yeah, I think I would love to see, in fact, this is, this is a fun experiment, would love to see you actually to see if you could find some places where you could do some outreach in the old-fashioned way, you actually with, with somebody [00:14:18] Shawn Powers: And are there any ad networks that aren't? [00:14:22] Katherine Druckman: aren't creepy. That I [00:14:23] Shawn Powers: Yeah, because I here's the thing. They would be less effective, right? You would have to like, [00:14:29] Katherine Druckman: but are I mean, but is, are they like, I don't, I don't know. I, I, I question how effective they are because I and and [00:14:36] Shawn Powers: an ad network. [00:14:38] Katherine Druckman: I know. Yeah. We need to start the, the Unre ad network. But I, again, my information is out of date because I have not dealt with this world in many, many years, on external and even that, because for a while we weren't doing any of that type of advertising. So it's been a while, but my experience with it is that the, the, the advertisers that came to us directly for promotion and placement and, and all of that stuff, and worked with us to, to help communicate in a less creepy way, in an efe, you know, in a, we in effective way where people actually respond to it. Did a lot better than any, than any ad network. We never really, you know, the ad network, back when we used them to, to, let's say sell surplus inventory or place them in, in various places just to get a little bit of a new revenue boost. Um, they weren't as successful, you know, they just weren't, didn't make that much money out of it. They didn't get that many clicks because it just, it, it misses the, the human connection that is necessary in that, in that experience, I. [00:15:44] Shawn Powers: I, I just thought, I wonder duck dot go right. There's somebody who seems to be fairly unre when it [00:15:50] Katherine Druckman: Hey we had Gabe Weinberg on the show. You should email him [00:15:53] Shawn Powers: yeah, I mean, it looks like you have to go through Microsoft advertising and I don't know what that [00:15:57] Katherine Druckman: So they, they kind of rely on Bing. I don't, [00:16:00] Shawn Powers: I didn't realize this is way where you're going. Maybe I would've, I could have done some [00:16:03] Katherine Druckman: I know Yeah no this is an accidental topic, but it's a good question is a good question. Like how, how do we get the word out about those awesome videos that will teach you bash scripting that I'm about to go refresh my memory with . gotta watch your videos. I haven't seen 'em in a while, but [00:16:19] Shawn Powers: Yeah. And you know, and I, I've tried to make some useful stuff, right? Like I have playlists on, uh, using s ssh, you know, there's like a handful of videos on the different things you can do with s ssh. There's a, you know, the playlist on Bash scripting 1 0 1, there's the playlist on Linux Essentials, which like I said, is. Is geared towards that cert. But, uh, you know, the very first video, the thumbnails like, uh, you need this. Maybe, you know, even if you don't get this cert, I, I don't know that a Linux essential cert is, uh, anything more than giving yourself the confidence that you, that you know, the stuff. But, [00:16:49] Katherine Druckman: No that's a, that's another thread to pick up, but I'll, I'll go ahead. [00:16:53] Shawn Powers: yeah. Fair enough. And, but, um, you know, the, the knowledge is certainly a, an entry ramp to Linux and, and even open source stuff. I think that. Linux is kind of a gateway drug to lots of things like development and, you know, familiarity with, um, open source in general. Uh, whereas you can certainly do open source without, um, using Linux, but you can't go the other way. I mean, if you're using Linux, you're familiar with at least open source ideals. [00:17:24] Katherine Druckman: So I have a question for you actually really quick how, how much does that cost? I, I have no idea. I do not have that certification. I'm not super into certifications, [00:17:32] Shawn Powers: So the Linux Essentials one, I don't remember. I'm probably like 2 95. They're all, they're so [00:17:38] Katherine Druckman: so in the ballpark. Yeah So that's that's my issue with, with those kind of certifications, like I, I find reviewing the coursework is probably very useful just to, you educate yourself or whatever But the actual certification like, eh, [00:17:51] Shawn Powers: Well, and specifically with Linux Essentials, I, I'm not convinced that a Linux essential certification will get you further in a job interview like the, the, you know, having the certification. But it is one of those things that, um, That information in the certification course will definitely help you, you know, start your way and possibly just the knowledge would be more beneficial, like in an interview, uh, than, yeah, than the cert. Than the cert would for, you know, the qualifications and I was wrong. It's $120 for [00:18:28] Katherine Druckman: Mm-hmm Oh, that's not too bad. [00:18:31] Shawn Powers: And then the other one I'm actually in the middle of right now is Linux Plus, which is, uh, CompTIA's, uh, version of PIC one. So, you know, they're kind of comparable. PIC one is two exams and um, Linux Plus is one exam. Those are the kind of things where I think those do help a little. when it comes to like applying for a job and stuff, and so I'm in the middle of the Linux plus course. It's a much more thorough. Course end exam. Um, I was part of the beta testing program when CompTIA split off from PIC and did their own version. Linux Plus used to be l i one, like you could pay once take, take the exams once and get both your Linux Plus and your l i one. Uh, but then a few years back, compt split off and now it's their own. Uh, exam. And so I was part of the beta test and I really, really like how they do their testing. So I'm a big fan of Lennox Plus, which is why I'm doing that course, but it's not complete yet. So I, yeah, I don't have anything to point you to unless you wanna follow along as I slowly, get the [00:19:40] Katherine Druckman: course everybody [00:19:41] Shawn Powers: uh, in which case link in the description [00:19:46] Katherine Druckman: I actually just looked it up and it is $358 to [00:19:49] Shawn Powers: for Linux. [00:19:50] Katherine Druckman: I think so. I mean, unless I'm looking up the wrong thing, which is always possible, but yes. [00:19:55] Shawn Powers: That sounds about right, [00:19:57] Katherine Druckman: Yeah. So yeah, I, I, I have, I mean, I, I, I wouldn't say I'm cynical about CER certification. I think there's, there's, there are a lot of really great uses for it. I, I have gotten certification for all sorts of things, and , just for fun, I have a wine certification, so I, I, I think it's totally fine to, to get, if that's what you're into, but I, I think in those cases you do have to kind of weigh the benefit and you know, ha, you know, what, what is having this piece of paper. [00:20:25] Shawn Powers: Yes. I, I think there are, there are valid reasons for taking the exams and getting the certifications. Uh, if it's, if you have a job and getting the certification will mean like a pay increase. Yeah. I mean that's, you know, that's kind of a no-brainer. [00:20:37] Katherine Druckman: then, and then in that case, hopefully your employer will [00:20:39] Shawn Powers: Yeah. And even if they won't, I mean, if the pay increase is a, you know, [00:20:43] Katherine Druckman: Well, yeah. There. Yes [00:20:44] Shawn Powers: I mean, it's, you know, 400 bucks for, you know, $10,000 graz or whatever. Can't [00:20:49] Katherine Druckman: Yeah Do it. Do it. [00:20:51] Shawn Powers: um yeah, the links essentials, you know, $120. But there, I, there is some value in, uh, do I really get it or do I think I, I get it, you know, and, and if you, you know, like go through like my course for example, and you, you, oh, I get it. I get all the, you know, finally it all makes sense. I think there's a little bit of self-doubt. Like I, or I think I get it, maybe I should take the exam to make sure that like, I really did You know? So I mean, if you're doubting that you really do know stuff, then you know it might be worth $120 to get that. But as far as, um, I'm trying to get a job, the Linux essential certification probably isn't gonna get you a job. That just the knowledge itself wouldn't [00:21:33] Katherine Druckman: Okay. That's good information, I think. But, so what about more advanced things? Do you ever, do you ever get into or more specialized topics? What, what other, what other trainings and certifications have you done? mean what other certifications have you made training for? [00:21:48] Shawn Powers: So, I mean, when I worked for a commercial training company, I made lots of DevOps certification, or not even certification before the, there was even certifications for things, uh, like Chef and Puppet and, and Ansible. And, you know, I made lots of, and Docker, you know, I made lots of, uh, courses for things like that. It's funny though because people ask a lot for advanced, even certifications like PIC two or various PIC three modules, like PIC three branches off into various specialties or whatever. The problem is when you're trying to make something that is going to benefit the most people, the entry level stuff. is where most people are, right? The the more specialized, the more advanced you get, the fewer people that you're going to benefit. And so whether your rationale is profits or your rationale is reaching the most people, the more specialized and advanced stuff you create, the fewer people it's going. be, be useful too. And, and that's a, it's a frustration for people who are trying to get more advanced. And I, I get that. I really do. Uh, the most advanced ELIX stuff I made, I did make pic two courses several times and there's still enough General Linux information that I think they're still valuable Past that it's very specialized and. Without commercial backing to have, like May, if I get really huge on, on YouTube and there are, you know, thousands and thousands of people who would really like advanced training, it would make sense to do that. But if there's like two people who really want you know, it, it's tough to justify spending a year making content that most people aren't gonna be interested in. So yeah, it's, it's a. It's a weird sort of thing that the, I'm capable of making some advanced training that I did that for the company I worked for. Um, but is it the right choice? [00:23:49] Katherine Druckman: Yeah. you gotta find out where the need is, is, but I think the good news is there is a lot of need. [00:23:54] Shawn Powers: Yeah, and I mean, and we are in a world where full of uncertainty when it comes to, you know, careers and jobs and longevity of, uh, employment and stuff. And so I think having, having options again, Uh, that's a big thing for me. You know, having options, having alternatives, having knowledge of, uh, should I even pursue this? Is it something that I find interesting at all? You know, I the thought of somebody being stuck doing something that they hate for a long time, that's just sad to me. Um, uh, and if just free knowledge will, will help alleviate that. Well, hey, maybe I'm the person to give away some of that. [00:24:34] Katherine Druckman: I love it. I love it. [00:24:36] Shawn Powers: I wanna do it in a, in a non-creepy way. So that's why I need to know to how [00:24:41] Katherine Druckman: It'll be great. Even if it is [00:24:43] Shawn Powers: Oh, oh, that was thing. So you mentioned almost like grassroots kind of, you know, ways of, of spreading the word. And one of, i, I won't throw them under the bus as far as like naming them publicly, cuz I don't have permission to. But one of my, uh, YouTube community members approached me about, uh, could we start, uh, even on my little discord, right? Like I have a little Discord community, uh, link in the description, [00:25:06] Katherine Druckman: Yeah, I was gonna say, how do I get to that, [00:25:07] Shawn Powers: Yeah. And. [00:25:08] Katherine Druckman: actually in it. I but yeah [00:25:10] Shawn Powers: but they, they said, could we make like a, a way where we could spread the word on like other YouTube channels or other resources that we found for learning things, uh, in addition to your channel or, and their concern was, or do you not want like competition? I'm like, I don't see this competition really. I mean it's, you know, it's, yes, absolutely. I. Teach everything and, and having multiple teachers on a topic is great because people explain things slightly differently and sometimes it clicks after, you know, two people explain the same thing in different ways. It clicks in a way that it didn't with just one. And so that's, you know, Not just my little community who's thinking about ways to spread the word for other people, because it does benefit everybody, right? I mean, it's not just, you know, benefiting those other YouTube channels or those other blogs or resources or whatever. It's benefiting the people who would be going to them. So internal adding or internal ads, I guess. I don't know. I don't know what to call it, but That's fair. It's fair. I just, it's so tempt. To use the tools that will target stuff. You know? I mean, I don't know how [00:26:15] Katherine Druckman: It's it's tempting. It's tempting. The to have forgotten how, how anything worked before, right? Things have not always been done this way. Surely we can think of a, of an alternative, um, Some of us are old enough to remember. was what's really cool I think. , the online community you've built. It may, you know, be, and it's small for [00:26:39] Shawn Powers: Yeah, it's in its infancy for sure. If you wanna get in the, the ground level [00:26:43] Katherine Druckman: Get in on the ground floor of Sean's new nerdlings Done it. Yeah. But, but seriously, it's, it's, it's not a small feat to build something like that where pe but the fact that people are in there helping each other solve these problems and, and, and, and pointing to other resources, I think is really, it's, it's, it's nice to see and it's very valuable for the people there. yeah. I mean, and, and all of us I think are. By nature, we look for our, our, our, our group, our our little, you know, group of people. And, and we learn together and we all have that. That's, that's how who we are, even when we're super profoundly introverted, you find your, your, you know, business organizations or your, or your meetups or whatever they are, and , you collaborate on problems and solve them. And the fact that you've actually been able to get something like that started is, is pretty fun. [00:27:29] Shawn Powers: And it's, it's interesting for me too, how. diverse. The group is even geographically. Um, and I don't know if it's because of when I do my live streams, but they're, you would think, I mean, I'm, I'm as white Midwest American guy as they come. I mean, really, I, I'm cl it's, no, it's not a secret. You know where I live, where I'm from, Uh, at that is not the major demographic in the, like, in our discord and in our communications and stuff, it's truly all over the world, which just is awesome for me. [00:28:10] Katherine Druckman: So does that mean it's active all the time? It's active like 24 hours a [00:28:14] Shawn Powers: Yeah. It is funny. I mean, again, we're, we're a pretty small group of people, but Yes, uh, you know, I will often wake up to conversations that I have to catch up on because they've taken place while I was sleeping and, um, and [00:28:25] Katherine Druckman: now I know where to go when I have insomnia. [00:28:27] Shawn Powers: Yeah And there are, uh, there are some, it's great for me now to see people helping each other and not just, not just me. You know, I, I love to be able to help people, but it's neat that other people are too. And that's, uh, that's the part of community that, um, I was hoping to experience one day. And it's neat to see e even in small, small bouts, but I mean, for example, we have. We have a Spanish only channel, and a, and a Hungarian only channel. Uh, neither of which is, is, um, used very much at all. But there are people who, um, wanted to, or asked if they could, uh, provide a place where if somebody who doesn't speak English as a native language wanted to ask questions, you know, natively to get the thing out they could. And so, yeah. How, how cool is that? [00:29:16] Katherine Druckman: That's very cool. I didn't, I hadn't, I [00:29:18] Shawn Powers: Yeah. And will they someday get populated with conversations that I couldn't follow without Google Translate? I hope so, because, you know, there's people who care enough that it'll, it'll be self moderated. I'm not concerned about, you know, it turning into a horrible place that I don't know about it being horrible. You know, because again, the people that were attracting are, are people who, uh, who care and want to make the world a better place. So anyway, again, I'm pieing the sky kinda, uh, optimistic here, but, [00:29:47] Katherine Druckman: I, have a question for you though. About training, about when you approach designing these, these things, and I know you've done this for so long. I, I wonder how hard is it for you to. in the mindset of a beginner again, like how do you, how do you get in the place where you, I mean, I know there's, there's obviously you have a curriculum with these certifications and you can start with that, but, but do you, do you ever struggle? I, I have noticed in my years people teaching. Beginner level skills of any sort. it could be could be technology, it could be art, anything at all. People who have been doing something a very long time tend to have a very hard time empathizing with those who have not. And it sometimes comes across. Some people are great at it and some people are. I I, you are good at it and I know this, but how, how, how are you good at that? How do you approach that? [00:30:33] Shawn Powers: Oh, thank you. First of all, I, you know, I, I, I try really hard to be, um, uh, inclusive when I teach if I, I don't, I don't ever teach down to people. I think that's a, that's a big thing, like teaching down to somebody, uh, is really. [00:30:50] Katherine Druckman: you getting this ? do that [00:30:53] Shawn Powers: like, you know, like, I'm smart, you're not, so let me explain this in a way that you'll understand. I mean, that's, I mean, condescension is really easy to detect, right? So, uh, I distinctly remember the feeling every time I have to learn something new. Where I feel like I am just the dumbest person the room. Uh, I specifically remember Docker the first time I, I had to teach on Docker and I had to learn Docker. I did not understand what was happening. I just did not get it. And, I, you know, I would see people talk and use all the docker buzzwords. Not only didn't I understand what, what they were saying, just it was so, so intimidating that I always try to remember that, uh, level of feeling stupid and realizing that anybody who's watching what I'm teaching is not stupid. They might feel like they are, but they're not. And I, so I just try to remember that feeling. I guess what, that's the, that's the crux of it. I, I want to alleviate that feeling as much as possible. And then I, I do try to explain, not just like the stuff, but. Why it might be interesting, and sometimes I have to think hard myself. Like, why on earth would, uh, like I was recently teaching on, uh, kill signals. Uh, like if you're a Linux person, like, uh, like kill minus nine for like, you knows, kill [00:32:22] Katherine Druckman: was my roller derby number. [00:32:24] Shawn Powers: a awesome. Alright, see, you found [00:32:26] Katherine Druckman: I just had to throw that out there. [00:32:27] Shawn Powers: You found a way to make it interesting, and that's it too. I try to a way to make the most mundane things interesting. And if I'm explaining something and you find it interesting, um, when you're interested, you don't feel dumb. Right? And so not only is it like, uh, approachable at that point, I, I think that it just kind of makes you realize that. . Well, if it, maybe it isn't that, that difficult. I just, you know, once I get it, I'll, I'll get it. And I, I wanna be interested in what it means to send a signal to a running process. Uh, because Sean's sure, excited about this so I must be missing something. Uh, but yeah, [00:33:09] Katherine Druckman: next time use a roller derby analogy [00:33:11] Shawn Powers: That's, there we go. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And the significance of kill minus nine is, that's like the, uh, minus nine is sig kill, which will stop a process even it want to be stopped Yeah, Like a process can [00:33:27] Katherine Druckman: like on roller skates [00:33:29] Shawn Powers: term, sig terminate. Can't, can't ignore Sig Kill. Yeah. So, yeah, that was a great name derby. [00:33:37] Katherine Druckman: rather large imposing figure on roller skates coming at you, I figured [00:33:42] Shawn Powers: It feels like sig kill [00:33:45] Katherine Druckman: Yeah That was back in the days when you could still, like you, my number was nine, but you could still have like some words on your jersey and then they changed the roles and you had to be official and have just a number. But, and then it was four 13. yeah, it's not obvious. It's an http error code. [00:34:00] Shawn Powers: oh. Oh oh. Okay. [00:34:01] Katherine Druckman: I think we've talked about this. It's payload too large. [00:34:06] Shawn Powers: We have not talked about it But because you said that and I didn't get it, that is another prime thing that I always try to do in my teaching, in my interactions in podcasting. If I don't know, I, I have to humble myself to say I [00:34:25] Katherine Druckman: Oh yeah Never be afraid to say you don't know. None know everything. We can't know [00:34:29] Shawn Powers: Uh, and I'll tell you what, if you want the, the secret to, you know, doing well in an interview, not being afraid to say, I don't know, because, you know, I've interviewed people. I haven't interviewed as many people as Kyle. You know, if you wanna talk about interviewing, Kyle is the person I talk to. Uh, but I've interviewed a lot of people. And when somebody knows enough and is confident enough to say they don't know, hmm, that's the person you. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I, I, I had no idea what you're talking about. Um, [00:35:01] Katherine Druckman: Yeah. it's an obscure error code that nobody knows. I literally just, when I had to change my, I, I actually had to change my number at one time besides just removing the words, but I also had to change, like I left and came back and nine was taken and, uh, yeah. And I was like, well, I need a, I need a new number. So I'm literally like looking for obscure nerd stuff, . And I was like, you know what? This is funny. gonna [00:35:22] Shawn Powers: The reference for me was 4 0 4. I, you know, I [00:35:25] Katherine Druckman: Yeah, I, I've seen a few 4 0 4 numbers out [00:35:28] Shawn Powers: Yeah. I mean, that one I, I wanna get [00:35:30] Katherine Druckman: Or 1 3 37 [00:35:32] Shawn Powers: yeah. Elite. I mean, I, you [00:35:33] Katherine Druckman: sorry Yeah, you should probably [00:35:35] Shawn Powers: because I knew that one [00:35:37] Katherine Druckman: Yes, Yeah, nerd's gonna Nerd [00:35:44] Shawn Powers: Exactly, exactly the, um, I guess, I guess that's it. I, I don't know if I come up with a great way to get the word out without succumbing to the, uh, the lure of you could reach millions of people with, you know, specific information for only $10. [00:36:02] Katherine Druckman: need, you don't need to reach millions. You need to reach your people that like there's, that's the thing, like even here, like this is a great example. We keep doing this podcast. every week, almost every week. . Occasionally we get, uh, backed up, but, but we keep doing this because the, you know, the people listening, if you're listening, thank you. You, you were our people. These are our people. I don't feel the need to, to have a million I just, you know, we have a solid, decent number and I appreciate it. And, and I know that the people listening are, they're obviously are people because they're still listening. Thank you again. Um, but yeah, it's, it's not, eh, it's not about, it's not about reaching everyone. It's about, it's about reaching your. group, [00:36:40] Shawn Powers: your crew. [00:36:41] Katherine Druckman: like-minded besties. [00:36:45] Shawn Powers: Yeah, it's true. And again, though, it is kind of pushing against the desire to, uh, help as many people as possible. Right. I, I think that the, the intention to grow is, is again, I'm, I'm just not motivated by making a lot of cash, but, uh, changing a lot of lives. That's you I do. Yeah. I know, right. That's this [00:37:09] Katherine Druckman: all do It's survival okay. Well thank you Sean, so much for, for sharing all this with us and I hope that people listening will check out your videos and maybe check out your discord and, and see what's going on in there, even in Hungarian or Spanish, is cool. And, um, and for everybody else, thank you again for listening and we'll be back next time. Doc will be back and we'll have some, we have some interesting stuff lined up, so I'm forward to it and I hope you are too. [00:37:35] Shawn Powers: Bye.