[00:00:00] Katherine Druckman: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Reality 2.0, I am Katherine Druckman. Doc Searls is back with us this week after a little vacation slash conference. And he's gonna tell us a little bit about that, but before we get started, I want to remind everyone to check out our website. At reality, two cast. Dot com where you can find all of our extra links, you can sign up for our newsletter, which we will occasionally send out.

And also thank you. I have recently updated the list of Patreon supporters and Ko-fi supporters. You are now listed on the, on the website and thank you very much for that. So Doc, tell us, tell us about, uh, tell us about your trip.

[00:00:37] Doc Searls: Yeah. So, first I wanna say an interesting thing about our newsletter is that newsletters are getting more common and more and, and more often. And so we bother you less often. than some, yes. It's a feature. It's a feature. It's a feature that we're not, we're not constant in trying to just fill your head with stuff.

Um, okay. So DWeb Camp, the DWeb stands for decentralized web. If you go to dwebcamp.org and look around, you'll find out more about it. There's an origin story. It goes back to 2016. My version of it is that Brewster Kale of the internet archive basically either sponsored or called it, called this thing into existence back then.

And this is the first one I've been to. So I'm not that familiar with the history. I've wanted to go to some earlier ones. I can say that this is one of the very few, or perhaps even the only conference that I've gone to since the early nineties, when I worked for my own company and they paid for it, then I've actually paid to go to a conference.

And where I was not a speaker and generally I'm a speaker or I'm at a panel or some other thing like that. And I get in for, you know, for either nothing or they pay me so that this is different. This is, this is one where, where not only I, but my wife Joyce and I both went and it was very worthwhile and it was very, very productive.

It was held in the, um, it was a four day thing. It ran from like Wednesday through Saturday and then people left on Sunday. So you could even think of it as kind of a five day thing, and I think there's some people that showed up earlier, like on Tuesday, a lot of the staff showed up then, so it, for them, it's like the better part of a week.

And it was held in a place called camp Navarro, which is in some really tall, second growth redwoods in the north coast of California and Mendocino county. If you know, Mendocino county at all, it's kind of a wine country that goes to fishing along the coast, and you have to go through a lot of beautiful wilderness to get there.

I say second growth redwoods because all of the redwoods that were there mostly were in circles that surrounded a really gigantic tree trunk that got cut down, I'm guessing 50 to 80 years ago. And they cut 'em down. 7 8, 10 feet off the ground because the it's nothing but straight timber above that this isn't done anymore.

I think, and for the most part old growth is still standing and they're mostly getting second growth. Like these guys were, but 150, 200 foot all trees, which were spectacular and. And the smell of Redwood Duff everywhere. And, and of course being California in the summer, it hasn't rained there for months.

And so it's very dry, but anyway, and of course there's a constant thread of fire because it's California in the summer, and there's plenty of evidence of fire cuz some of these redwoods that are the old Redwood stumps have fire scars on them. Redwood is the California state tree and significantly it's adapted to fire a mature Redwood doesn't have branches for like 150, 200 feet up. And fire can go through and wipe out everything around the ground and they survive. They're kind of wonderfully adapted that way. Anyhow. It, it was it at, it was all about the distributed web or the distributed internet and redistributing. Um, decentralized, I I'm saying distributed, these are kind of interchangeable terms, but they have a subtle and different meaning I prefer distributed, which is probably why I did what the shrinks called a gestalt substitution there.

Yes, I prefer it, but decentralized to me means just centralized in another way, but, uh, Brian Behlendorf who was there, and is one of the fathers of Apache and works for the Linux foundation. He has a wonderful way of putting it that what we need is minimum viable centralization. And so the first thing, well, before I get into that, I wanna say more about who was there, because I think it's quite likely that there was not a single Republican in this place.

okay. There were people representing every tribe. Every gender choice, I think, and stuff like that very much politically and socially on the left, but not political about it at all. There was very little if, if not, none, no politics at all there, but it was lots of ceremonies and lots of respect for the land and all that kind of stuff.

And, and I, and I mean that in a good way, because these are also the people who are include a lot of programmers, it's a very technical conference in many ways, who are willing to do to work for lower wages for, for doing good in the world. And you know, there's one programmer I talked to who said that, you know, he's, he's making $87,000 working for a nonprofit where it could be making 300,000 plus working for a big company and, and that's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of that. And, and I like that a lot and we need that. We need that meaning customer commons, which is my nonprofit, um, and other nonprofits, like it need people like that that are willing, willing to take a bit of a haircut to do stuff that's consequential and positive in the world.

So. So that was, I can identify . 

[00:05:44] Katherine Druckman: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I did work for Linux Journal for many years, as did you.

[00:05:48] Doc Searls: You can identify kind of both sides of that thing. Um, and as can I, I mean, you know, cuz I've consulted some of the biggest and smallest and companies. 

[00:05:57] Katherine Druckman: You gotta do what you love.

[00:05:58] Doc Searls: You gotta, yeah. At some point you have to do what you love. So a lot of people there doing what they loved. I wanna give props to centralization for a minute because I think we don't appreciate enough the simple fact that some things really do require centralization, and those include the stuff you can only do in a cloud.

You can only do in a CDN. You can only do when you have scale to begin with. And I say this begrudgingly in some ways, because. A lot of the elders there. And I kind of saw I saw to it that, that, that there would be, I didn't so much see to it, but I, it was suggested, and I kind of promulgated the idea that we should have a gathering of the old geeks speaking to the younger geeks, cuz most people were millennials and gen Z types or, you know, under, under 40, I would say interesting people are under 40 And I might be wrong about that.

You can look at the attendees list and check down through it, but I, that that's the feel I had and it was great, but they weren't around when many of them weren't around when even a, a poor wizard, smart, smarter than a muggle, but not a wizard yet or ever like myself could have, you know, an SMTP.

Mail server sitting under my desk with its own IP address and I could have my own web server or more than one of them. I, you know, I have a bank of 16 IP addresses that I got from my ISP in 1995. And, and really from 1995, till about 2002, my, I had a bunch of servers running on a bank of IP addresses that I had on fixed lines that went to my house or to my office.

There was an office after I got to Santa Barbara. But it's an office upstairs over an ISP who drilled a hole in their ceiling, in my floor to fish through some some cat six, you know, so I could, that's funny Jack that into my RJ 45s and, you know, and, and by ethernet to have a T1 connection, which in those days was like a good thing.

And I, I could run these servers and we had a server that did nothing, but, you know, run a cron job that pushed whatever I wrote for Linux Journal up to Seattle, which is where Linux Journal was at the time. And those were all manageable by me. You know, I could open a shell and I could do stuff on it.

And, um, and I could call people who knew more than I did and walk me through doing the more complicated stuff. But once in Santa Barbara in, I think it's maybe even in the house I'm in now might have been in the house before it who've lived in many houses. Um, my mail server, according to a friend of mine who happened to work for Google and was much smarter than me and could look into these things, had like a nest of porn sites.

I never knew anything about sitting on it. Um, serving up, porn into the world and I never knew about the damn thing. And so, and I think it was after they, I, I got banned or something by somebody like you've got a ho you've got a crappy IP address there. That's, that's sending awful things out into the world and, oh, well, okay.

That was me. That was my box. And at that point, I, I turned over. My mail to a box at Rackspace and, you know, and that was in a rack at Rackspace and later Rackspace decided it belonged in the cloud because clouds are easier for them to manage. And so that's where stuff went and we need AWS.

We need a lot of this stuff. And I, I wanna, I wanna respect that. The problem is we lost autonomy somewhere in here and, and we forgot what it was like, and maybe it was modeled wrong. Maybe it was from an age that had to pass, but. Some value got passed along with it and what we're doing now. And by we, I mean, everybody that was at DWeb Camp is thinking about how we can redistribute this, this out to smaller centers on various edges.

So there are people there from IPFS, the interplanetary file system, there are people from solid, Tim Berners-Lee's thing, that were doing really interesting stuff. A lot of people doing the SSI stuff, DIDs, which were distributed attributor digital IDs, basically digital IDs, and anything can have a digital ID and DIDs are a method of doing that.

That's a w three C standard. Lots of a lot of stuff I hadn't heard, heard of before spritely.institute, check them out. File coin, sponsored a lot of what was going on there. Food and geekery of various kinds, but they also have a foundation that has funded a lot of this stuff that was there, including I believe spritely.

I can be corrected on that if I'm wrong. Spritely looks really interesting. That's open source, um, Beckon B E C K N, which is. Out of India, a protocol for a demand and supply to signal each other, something that I've been calling for for a hundred years and looks promising.

It's part of a bigger, more government oriented or run thing in India, but it has promise and of, of, I haven't seen the tech on it, but it's there. And some of it, at least as open source. That was another one. So, so there lots and lots of earnest efforts and also around governance. Okay. The term governance was very big there and that's why I say there were no Republicans there because, you know, generally go when they hear words like governance or even community and anything social in it, you know, it's like it's chalkboard on their minds.

Um, And I mean that with a lot of respect, because I think that we do need, I have very strong libertarian kind of Silicon valley, libertarian sympathies, where I'm very leery of new laws. I was very enthused about GDPR, not so much about the CCPA and almost not at all about subsequent laws, because I think I see all of them kind of demoting the individual to being nothing more than a data subject and a pinball in all the big companies, machines going, asking for, you know, asking for handing over consent.

Every. Touches a system. And I think there's just horrible and wrong, but that's the laws kind of comprehend that. So what kind of governance do we actually need if we're gonna be civilized, cuz we're civilized to need governance. So there's a, an outfit there called Metagov I think bunch of really smart people there.

Uh, when it's sat in on a bunch of sessions there where they talked about all the different kinds. Nonprofits you can have and what the advantages and disadvantages were and how, what the governance models were for those things really, really interesting stuff. Um, which normally would bore my ass off, but were actually, I can actually use some of that.

Um, and it's relevant too, to hanging out at the Ostrom workshop and Indiana university, which I'm doing also, and her Nobel prize Eleanor Ostrom's Nobel prize was in, is in governing the commons. And so everybody here wants to make the commons of some kind, uh, including us with customer commons. So that's kind like the top level summary and I recommended go, go there next year.

It'll be again next 

[00:13:12] Katherine Druckman: year, about how many people. 

I don't know, 

I I'm looking at the page, but I, you know, I can't do that. Yeah. I think it was, it's a it's it's not small. 

[00:13:21] Doc Searls: It's not small. I, I think it was, I'm gonna say, because we were never, maybe about 200. Okay. And I might, I thought it is small. I might be 150, a hundred low, um, on that.

I'm not more than 50 high. So put it that way. So maybe. In the two hundreds somewhere I'm guessing, but there's only one time we, we gathered, I think. And, but most of the time we were scattered and literally off into the woods, you know, I mean, there was the, you know, the Redwood cathedral, there, there was kind of fun names for different things.

The, the, the, the file coin disco or something. I mean, that was a place where they had audio doing 

things, looking, and there seems to be a lot of, a lot of file. 

A lot of file. Coin file coin was probably the biggest corporate presence there. Yeah. But the touch was light. I have to hand it to them. The touch was light.

Okay. 

[00:14:17] Katherine Druckman: So I'm curious. You mentioned this generational difference in terms of let's say level of DIY. So, so if you, you have this group of people, that's, that's working toward individual autonomy and decentralization, do you find that many of them don't remember the early 

[00:14:38] Doc Searls: web that you speak of?

Well, I don't think they were there. I mean, in many cases they weren't there, they were too young. Um, I mean, certainly everybody kind of knows the, the origin stories and respects them. Um, and I think they respect the people who are involved. Uh, I, I don't think that's a problem at all, but I think that they're.

You know, the, the elders among them among us who were there, you know, do remember and live most of our lives in a world that was not digital mm-hmm , you know, where, where the internet was not connecting everything all the time. And, um, And when, and we went through really a fairly brief period when we did get on where the geekier among us could enjoy a kind of autonomy and, and, and real agency.

I mean, there, I mean, I, I maybe talked about this too much, but maybe not on the show. I don't know, but my blog, which ran, you know, the original form of it at, at the original, um, URL. Which is still exists. I mean, you could, it's still on the net. Uh, it's not exactly the same URL, but the entire Corpus that is there running on old code, but it's preserved code and nobody's busy screwing with it, which is actually good in that case.

Um, it's actually a doc.weblog.com. If you wanna see the old one, it was there. Uh, that, that had up to 50,000 readers, a. Every day. Okay. And I felt every day that I was writing. um, I was right running a local paper for a collection of interests. And when social media, especially Facebook came along to Twitter, Twitter appeal, both of 'em in 2006 and Twitter appealed to the, the need.

We all have to go blah, publicly. And it. Serve that purpose and, and that subtracted a lot of energy from the blogging community. And it was a community there weren't that many in it. 

[00:16:43] Katherine Druckman: Um, oh yeah. So everybody knew each other. There were blog everybody, the blog 

[00:16:47] Doc Searls: role, all the weren't blogging circles. Yeah.

Yeah. And we were all over the place in terms of our, our politics. I mean, Glen Reynolds was. A big participant and very right wing guy teaches at university of Tennessee. And, um, he wrote a, a book. I was just looking at over here on my bookshelf called an army of Davids, um, and, uh, um, uh, Tony, uh, Oh, God, Tony Pierce, who today is driving for Uber in order to make money.

He's one of the best writers out there. And he still has his old blog called the bus blog and it's brilliant. And he, and he exposes his life and he has worked for the LA times and he is worked for other publications, but. Those publications, aren't paying people anymore. You know, if they are, they're just content pumps.

And so, but we, but we had this experience of, of writing for a constituency for a period of time. And with Facebook, especially like, if you look at my old blog, um, At doc do weblog.com I think, yeah. Weblog, weblogs just, weblo.com. You'll see a blog role. We all have blog roles, which are kind of blog role.

These are our real friends, not our Facebook friends, but these are yeah. People whose blogs I like, or I read, or I want you to read, um, like when you get outta here, you look at some of these, these are kind of what subs newsletters are now. You know, people wrote yeah. Meaningful stuff on there. I would say there maybe out of like 150 listed there, there are maybe.

Six or eight that are still at those URLs, all the rest of them. You could just see when they died off. It's like a, it's a graveyard for blogs and, and, and most of them are on Facebook. You know, there are people who, and they're brilliant people who write on Facebook. Bob Frankston did, uh, David Reed, um, um, Dean Landsman, uh, and I don't.

I'm not sure either read or, or Frankston had a blog in that sense, but they were eleva Frankston certainly did. Um, But their great stuff is going on Facebook right now. And it's kind of like snow on the water. It just kinda hits there and sinks and it's very engaging. but it's all about engagement and that's the, the switch over that happened there.

And this is, to me, the, the challenge of decentralization was as my older son put it, um, just offhandedly, but in 2003, and I wrote about it in Linux Journal, you could still find it. Uh, he said, well, we're going this, the, the live web is growing off. The static web, the static web is the one that Brewster and the art and the internet archive catalogs, you know, they're, they, they, it's a library and that's basically what all the Unix paths in the world are.

And that's what all of the, um, All of the web was in the early days, it was a, it was a library, it was a co it was a, it was a whole bunch of catalogs and directories. There were directories within there, there were files within directories and directories and directories, and that was a coherent thing and it was relatively stable.

And, but as soon as the live web came along, he saw it happening when, um, when blogs came along, just because blogs were frequent, but really. It happened when Technorati, which was born when Dave Sifry and I wanted to write a, or did write a story for Linox journal about blogging. Uh, and that's, by the way, when we discovered Drupal and got Linux journal and the rest was history.

Yeah. Um, we were already on Dru I think, but then we, we brought, oh my God, your two versions back fix. And I think it helped out. Um, no, that was, 

[00:20:41] Katherine Druckman: that was before my 

[00:20:41] Doc Searls: time. It was before your time, but it was, but it was happening, but yeah, what. What, what, what happened was that Dave sire invented Technorati, which is a search engine just for blogs.

And it looked at RSS, um, brilliant invention by Dave wine. A really simplest indication meant anybody can run. You're no different than in New York times, which did a beautiful job of being like the first major. Publication to embrace RSS and RSS is still out there and working really well. That the thing is that every, so everybody had this, this chance.

Yeah. That, but, but what, what happened was that Google came along and it, I, this is another thing probably most people don't remember. But, and you have to be reminded if you're as old as I am that in the early days of search engine and even of Google, if you changed your website, it might be a month before it showed up in Google's index or in any search engine's index.

And Google basically shortened it down to now there cert all of it. You, you change your website, they've got it. They'll find it. And, and that's where, what happened to page rank page rank used to be pages. Not live certain, not live things. It was pages that had links to other things I have. I have, um, Easter eggs, one Easter egg in particular, in old things that I wrote that had a word.

I'll just say it, cuz you won't be able to spell it. Lu from startle. I put the word Lu from startle in several files and I can find them still on my laptop. I can't find them on the, on it with a search engine. Google is not looking at that stuff anymore. And I have links to those PA those pages and. It's looking at live stuff.

It's the live web, everything is now and it's applies to everything. And this is how do you decentralize that? I don't know, because like with, and, and socially we have now. The way young people deal with photography, for example, is I'm shooting something to show my friends or my relatives. I'm gonna keep it for a while.

I don't care about the older stuff as much. It's not archival and photography was a. For its entire history until recently almost entirely for archival purposes, you know, it, what kept these things? I don't think people keep anymore. I've seen no numbers on this. I really don't know, but it's part of the liveness of it.

But if you're gonna run the live, gonna need a lot of centralized services. Doing that. Yeah. And, and so how do you get around that? And it's just a gigantic question. Uh, and lots and lots of answers and a, a good, and a bad thing I think is that everybody's working on their own shit, you know? Yeah. I can see that.

I think they all do. I mean, I, and I've, I've been dealing with this for seven, 16 years with project VM, the project that still exists at the Burman client center@projectvm.org that it'll redirect from there, but to a longer Harvard address, but project vm.org, um, that. Has an active list of 500, some people on it, but a lot of developers working on their own stuff and the stuff doesn't necessarily get along with the other stuff.

And there's a lot of, a lot of hand waving about how we're gonna really work on that. Yeah. 

[00:24:15] Katherine Druckman: And it's impossible to know if you're working on the right stuff and, and, and what is the right stuff. And you've gotta work on all of the stuff or else the right stuff. Doesn't bubble up to the top. And yeah. And, and it's, it's a question of participation.

I think we, we think of it as a technical problem, but really it's a question of human participation and where the humans participate and, and where their free will takes them. And, you know, how do, yeah, when we're so focused on capturing attention, we don't really think about, you know, individual free will and.

I don't know, finding people where they are and where they want to be, rather than trying to guide them into where you want them to be. 

[00:24:49] Doc Searls: Here's an interesting moment that happened there. There were two moments that actually both of them, um, Larry Lessig, uh, the author of many books, um, and of Eldrid versus Ashcroft, the famous law case that he lost.

But what came out of that was creative commons as a, as a project. Um, Uh, co-creator of that with Aaron Swartz, the late Aaron Swartz, uh, and to just the smartest law lawyer law professor on pretty much everything having to do with tech in a, in a useful way and an incredibly good speaker. Oh my God. He's so good.

And. Uh, there was a little cocktail party of Brewster kales the day before this, on the way up. He lives at a really nice house. Um, not a fancy house, but in what an officer's corridors in the Presidio in San Francisco, which is a gorgeous place, a park that used to be one of the, the most beautiful army based in the world, I guess.

And, um, and Larry was there. I hadn't seen him in a few years and. One of the things he told me when in our conversation was that really for customer commons, working on contracts, that we can proffer contractual terms. We can proff as people, not as users of other people's as systems, but that we can say, for example, here's the contract.

Don't follow me off your site sign. that's actually a good idea. And we've been working on industry years. We have a, we have an IEEE P7012 is our working group on that for machine readable, personal privacy terms. Uh, David Reid has been involved in that as well. Um, and so basically he blessed it again, which is really good to hear, but in the course of that, we talked about advertising and he was not entirely aware, happened advertising over the last 20 years that it changed from advertising to populations to direct marketing to individuals based on tracking both called advertising. 

so at a talk that Larry gave, which is really about. The depressing state of democracy in the world right now. Uh, it's really interesting cuz Larry works very, very hard to make the world a better place, but he is also kind of, I think naturally a bit of a pessimist.

So , and, but he, and he said he was pessimistic about prospects, at least in the fairly short term, but. A lot of it had to do with how far surveillance capitalism has crept into everything. Absolutely. Everything. And, um, as we know, you know, Linox journal was basically killed by surveillance capitalism cuz we didn't participate.

And um, I was talking to somebody you and I both know, but we're, I wouldn't mention the name, but let's call them a big publisher that has been losing advertisers. That are people in the open source world, but, uh, who, who want the tracking, they want the numbers they want, they want, they wanna get personal with people and yeah, everybody does

Yeah. And 

[00:28:22] Katherine Druckman: everybody does. Everybody wants the data and the 

[00:28:24] Doc Searls: telemetry and yeah. Yeah. And, and, and the entire advertising industry is wrapped around that. Now the, the exception is, you know, the, the big brand ads that go on. On sports and, um, on TV, you know, I mean, you can have some they're beautiful ads that happen on TV.

Watch the super bowl. There they are, but you can see 'em on any basketball or football game, and those are aimed at populations, but, um, the rest of businesses wants to get personal and to help with the GDPR and all of the laws about it. They wanna get personal. So it was interesting. So Larry. In the Q and a, after his talk, somebody was asking him about advertising and, and he looks at me and he calls me up on stage.

The doc will answer that could answer these questions, which is great because I was able to say that the word advertising is rhetorical camouflage for direct marketing, because that's what we have now, 90, 90 X percent of what you deal with. Tech is, is surveillance capitalism. That's what it is. It wants to get personal.

And, and that is, that is the norm now. And it's very hard to even imagine the world without that. But in fact, we had the world without that when we had real advertising and that remains a real business model and it doesn't have to get personal and every brand you can name with, uh, two exceptions, I could think of Zara and trader Joe's.

Has been made by advertising, um, of the old kind. Maybe Costco got along with that, cuz it just came out there. But, or maybe CVS, I don't, I never see ads for CVS, so maybe I'm missing it. But um, I mean you just, you put your. You know, put your stores everywhere and you kind of don't need the ads anymore. But anyway, it, it, that was, that was kind of encouraging because what happened was that several people dropped out of the line of people at the microphone.

Um, you know, the audience microphone, people kind of lined up behind his mic to ask questions. Someone just went back and sat down because the advertising questions that I had just answered, and I probably wasn't up there more than two minutes, but that was an interesting thing to me. And many people came up to me afterwards saying I had no idea.

I had no idea that, that, that there were two completely different things called advertising. And only one of them was really advertising. And the other is direct marketing. That's interesting, which is drug mail. Yeah. I 

[00:30:56] Katherine Druckman: wonder though, if people, so, you know, I think finally the, you know, Shahana, Zoff surveillance, capitalism idea is becoming fairly mainstream.

You know, a lot of people talk yeah's mainstream now. Yeah. A lot of people throw that phrase out there, but I wonder if people will pay a little bit more attention once you zero in on some of the other consequences. For example, this week, the EFF came out with the story. About a law enforcement surveillance software, basically it's, you know, it's data brokers selling your, your location data to law enforcement, where they can swoop it all up in this massive warrantless search situation.

They can zero in, you know, a device level and see where a person has, has been every know every step they've taken without a warrant. And it's that kind of thing that, where you kind of think people might pay more attention, but I don't know. I don't think so because that's the type of thing where. Well, that doesn't affect me.

I'm a law abiding citizen and right. But I, but I, I don't think they realize that it could. Right. You know, they're looking for somebody who's near you. They'll not gonna swoop up your data and you just, you never know. You just never know. Um, 

[00:32:10] Doc Searls: yeah. And it turns China, you know? I mean, it's like, yeah, exactly.

Well, yeah, we're followed everywhere and that's, I'm not doing anything wrong, so there's no problem. And no, um, not realizing that pretty much all of. Substantive progress historically has been made by somebody intentionally doing something wrong when the status quo has been, um, banned in 

[00:32:35] Katherine Druckman: some ways, not, not to get political, as you, uh, mentioned at the beginning where people who are on certain, but you know, now that being female is being criminalized in most of the country.

I think people need to pay a little bit more attention to this kind of, uh, revelation. 

[00:32:49] Doc Searls: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, um, I, I think 

[00:32:54] Katherine Druckman: the, so maybe that's a tipping 

[00:32:55] Doc Searls: point. I don't know. It might be a tipping point. 

[00:32:57] Katherine Druckman: Yeah, maybe we can figure out, uh, digital autonomy and protecting our rights online. 

[00:33:02] Doc Searls: Right. You know, I mean, I, I think there's actually a fair amount of agreement about privacy.

Yeah. That I think there is too and big pack and all that stuff. So when that stuff, I, I I'm, I know I, I remain guardedly optimistic and I also think that the. You know, we've had, uh, Augustan Fu on here a couple times, and I can't believe how many times he just pulls the pants down on, on, on the advertising business and nothing happens.

But I think at some point it does, you know, I mean, he's, he's the guy pointing at the emperor and saying naked guy, and he is, it is a naked emperor. And, um, at some point that thing, you know, to switch metaphor, that bubble pops. Hmm. Interesting. Or, or I hope it does anyway. You never know. 

Okay, well, I'll ask you over and get question maybe. 

[00:33:57] Katherine Druckman: So this is a, a very, this is a casual, this is a camp very much like literally you were in a tent, 

[00:34:02] Doc Searls: it is a camp. I was in a tent 

[00:34:03] Katherine Druckman: and here's a focus. So we're not gonna get recorded sessions or anything like that, where you can check it out.

Is there, I 

[00:34:08] Doc Searls: think it's quite possible that that a lot of this stuff will show up online. I think that's oh, okay. Or at least I don't know. Or I don't know. I'd love it. If the spritely. Uh, that was, uh, some really technical stuff that was interesting to me, um, shows up online. Uh, 

[00:34:24] Katherine Druckman: okay. I noticed a few familiar faces, previous guests, for example.

Um, I think were there maybe presenting some ideas and I wondered, um, you know, if there were, if there were places where listeners could go and find, uh, some of that, I'll see if I can find some links. Yeah. 

[00:34:41] Doc Searls: Let me them in, I, I, I have a bunch of links in, in various emails that have sent out and have put together.

Let me see what I can do. And I have some pictures while I was there with my new camera, which is really good. It's a Sony, a seven four. Oh, very cool. 

[00:34:57] Katherine Druckman: We'll link to some of that maybe. Hey, maybe we can get some photos in a newsletter. Cool. Be cool. Um, yeah.

It sounds like a great event and, uh, I, I, you know, I'm, I'm hopeful that. Inspiration comes out of it. And some interesting work. Yeah. I, I think it will. I mean, it's nice that people are getting together again and 

[00:35:16] Doc Searls: doing things like this one, one left this thing. I, I mean, I did anyway.

I feeling like, Hey, there's, there's a lot of good stuff going on. There's a lot of hope and that's and a lot of young, good people and some older folks too, doing some amazing stuff, uh, that, that, uh, you know, makes me feel. So, 

[00:35:39] Katherine Druckman: oh, good. You need, you need both. You need the mentors and the mentees yeah. 

[00:35:43] Doc Searls: Stuff.

Yeah. Okay. 

[00:35:45] Katherine Druckman: Right. Well, thanks. Thanks for, for the, for the, the round up and, and thanks everybody for listening and, and we'll, we'll drop those links in and until next time.