Daniel: [00:00:00] Reflections on teaching a class about board games and religion on this episode of Board Game Faith, the biweekly podcast, exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Where we could put the thing All Do do. All right. Welcome everybody. We're so glad to have you on episode 25 of Board Game Faith, teaching Board Games and Religion or, or Reflections on Teaching Board Games in Religion. My name is Daniel. Kevin: And my name is Kevin Taylor, special guest today. So excited. Thanks for having me on. Daniel Daniel: You know what, Kevin, it is an honor. This, this, yeah. I gotta say recording with you is always a privilege and an honor and a joy, but it's like, it's like this is a [00:01:00] double, a double gift, a double blessing. Because not only are you the co-host, you're also the special guest. Kevin: Oh my Daniel: It's awesome. Kevin: And it was easy to set up. A time to record. Daniel: Yeah. And I have no, we, we had, we, we were just wanna go with the regular time and, um, I, we didn't have to go through the introductory emails about, Hey, we're a, we're a podcast about religion and board games, and you just kind of knew it. listen to us. here's, yeah. Yeah. So thanks for agreeing to be on the show, Kevin. Kevin: Oh, you're welcome. It's, it's glad to take some time out of my day for this. Daniel: Well, you're awesome. doing great. Kevin: wanna support you. Daniel: Thank you. Oh, well, it all goes to my co-host. He's, he's, he's fantastic. I don't know where, where, where he is. I think he's probably, he's probably on an on a guest on a podcast. He's, because he's in high demand. He's in high demand, Kevin: Inception. He's a guest on a podcast. That is this podcast, that's in a podcast, that's in a guest, that's in a podcast. [00:02:00] That's, that's Daniel: I wish he could be here because he really asks the great questions. questions So you're gonna be stuck with the, uh, the B level questions. This, this, um, so we're gonna, for example, um, do you use, uh, metric or, um, Fahrenheit or Celsius? Kevin: I personally have created my own system of measurements and weights. Daniel: Oh, the Kevin system. Is this the Kelvin? Kevin: Is this the kill when you drive? Whatever speed I'm driving is the correct speed Daniel: Uh, Kevin: whatever distance I think it is, it's just fine. And whatever temperature I want the food to be at is the correct. So it's basically binary. It's one or zero Daniel: it's okay. Okay. Kevin: and zero is everyone else. So they're going too slow or too fast, I like it. I like it. Daniel: I don't see any problems with that. One is this reflects the heart of Kevin. Zero is, this is contrary to the heart of Kevin, is [00:03:00] that Kevin: fail. I'm past failing my entire life and everything I'm doing, Homer Simpson said, Marge, nothing. I don't think it, hang on, Daniel: I don't think I've ever done anything Kevin: so it's so Homer. Just is, whatever I'm doing is j o k. Daniel: There are. There are some. Well, it is a Kevin Universe. And, uh, I am honored to be, um, traipsing through it for, for a little while this hour. Um, and speaking of pass fail, we are talking this week about a, not that it's a pass fail class, but a class, A class that you taught, uh, that you are currently teaching, um, um, about board games and religion. So let me, let me introduce our guest today. If, if I may, Kevin, if you don't mind me taking, well, I can introduce him and then you could introduce him too. But, um, our guest. is, uh, Reverend Dr. Kevin Taylor. Um, um, in the beginning, in the beginning there was a dream [00:04:00] there. There was a dream, and that dream was Kevin Taylor. And, and now, now it's come to pass, um, . That's right. So, um, If you've heard this to the podcast before, you know already that, um, uh, Kevin is a great guy and, um, that he is a, an ordained United Methodist pastor, ordained Christian pastor, happens to be United Methodist as as you are, we're both pastors, but We're we're, yeah. But the Yeah, please. But, um, in addition to that, Kevin is also, um, a professor, um, holds a PhD and teaches at Pfeiffer University in North Carolina. And so this past semester, Kevin, you had this really delightful idea, wonderful idea of teaching a new kind of class, a brand new class. And why don't we start off with, if you don't mind, please just tell us a little bit about. Daniel: Describe this class for us. Where did the idea come from? What were your hopes for it? What? [00:05:00] What did you want to try to accomplish with this class? Kevin: Yeah. Well, Daniel: what Kevin: to do was to explore some of the things this podcast has done and, and. Get myself thinking, you know, cuz teaching gets you thinking and learning. And we have these classes called special topics, which are kind of wild card classes. And, and I've used that before to, and others have done that as, as a way to explore a particular topic and things. So it just, it made sense to slot it in there and to do, I think I called it board game no, I just called it game theory and religion. Daniel: Okay. Okay. Kevin: it sound a little more, um, or a little less, like we would just play board games Daniel: Right, right, right, Kevin: Although actually in truth, we play a fair amount of board games. Daniel: right. Because you got game lab, which I want to hear about. I'm so, I think this is so exciting. Kevin: you know, it's one of those things like you. You've gotta try 'em out. You can't just talk about it. So if you're [00:06:00] gonna take a class on lifeguarding, you're gonna have to get in the pool, right? And if you're gonna take a class on biology, you're gonna have to cut open a pig or a frog or something at some point. So there was, to them to experience some things, which they really hadn't. Interestingly, they all like games, but except for maybe secret Hitler or Happy Salmon. and Uno monopoly. They really hadn't played anything else. So this was a new Daniel: Well, that's what I, Kevin: they're, kind of, you know, they're the college kids. They, they'll spend five bucks on a frappuccino, but they don't really buy board games. Daniel: yeah. Yeah. Kevin: strange creatures. Really. Daniel: Well, well that brings up something I wanted to ask about. Yeah. So, What, yeah. What sort of students did take signed up for this class? Were they primarily, was it primarily more out of interest in the religion side or primarily more interest in the game side, or, and it sounds like they Kevin: of the religion and it's a small class. There's only five students, so that Daniel: Sure. Kevin: worked really well because that there's a lot of games that [00:07:00] are five persons, so I could not play and let them play, or maybe they Daniel: Oh, right, right. Good, good. Kevin: I'd had more than that, I would've had to have two sets or them doing different things at the same time. So in some ways that, that, that. Serendipitous arrangement, Daniel: Okay. Kevin: of the five, four are either religion majors or gonna do the minor. But we also, there's, there's so many tricks in, in education world, we cross listed it. So it could count either as the religion or as a junior seminar Daniel: Oh, interesting. Which the required. Kevin: encourages more people to take it. Daniel: Okay. Okay. Kevin: is taking it maybe as a junior seminar. Daniel: Okay. Okay. Kevin: So the, the third year of college, they're, they're supposed to take something Daniel: Right, right. So you didn't have, sounds like you didn't have students coming in with a lot of, with a lot of prior knowledge about hobby board games, the, this kind of Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: because it wouldn't take one or two to [00:08:00] really disrupt the class, Daniel: Right. Kevin: interested and they're, they're good. Daniel: That's so cool. That's so cool. So did you have, um, did, did you have to make a pretty strong pitch, if I may ask? I don't, I don't know how this works in the, in college and universities. When you, when you have an idea for a new class, do you kind of have to like sell it to the department or, or to the dean or somebody to say, hey? Kevin: so that's the trick with special, again, it's sort of the magic of a special topic class that we don't, Daniel: Okay. Okay. Kevin: I mean, I think if your chair or Dean really didn't like it, they could. , stop it, but, but it's not a formal class you're recommending for the curriculum. It's sort of this wild card class and you can do what you want. Pretty much. Daniel: Okay. Okay. Okay. Kevin: other concern is that there's enough students in it. They don't want you just teaching one or a class with one or two students if they can help it. Cuz it's kind of a waste of resource. Daniel: Right, right. Sure, sure. Sure. Kevin: um, so they, even fives, arguably a [00:09:00] little small, but the in general, uh, you know, covid caused so many weird things for higher ed that a lot of the classes are leaning smaller this year, probably smaller than administration wants them Daniel: Mm, mm-hmm. still, still recovering from the, the covid hit. Kevin: that really, uh, has disappeared and, and of course, higher ed, these are ripples. Covid was, what was it, two and a half, three years ago, and this is the group that was coming to college at that very Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you have, so you, so you, you come with a name for the class, uh, game Theory and Religion. You got five students signed up. So then, uh, you, you shared with me the syllabus for this class, which looks amazing, but if you mind just talking a little bit about. What went into your thinking about how to design the class? How did you, what were your thoughts on structuring the class? What did you know, thinking about, what were you trying to, to balance, to expose them to, yeah. How, how did you structure the class? Kevin: the first thing I thought is, what have I learned from Daniel? [00:10:00] and I, I mean, Daniel: No, no, you're too kind. Kevin: these books till you start. We started doing the book club with podcast, so, Daniel: Oh, no, you're, you're very kind. Kevin: episodes and things we've used, so I know I wanted to use Bernard's Suits, the Grasshopper book, Daniel: so good. Yeah. Yeah, Kevin: the more I revisit it, the more I really love it. It's a hard book, so anyone out there. , you know, just know it's, it's kind of a book you have to dip into, step away from, but the more you come back to it, the more rewarding it is. So some excerpt, you, you can use certain percentage of things in an educational classroom and not break copyright law in the US. So I used just, uh, the beginning and in chapter of that within the class, and then I had them get the McGonagal book. _Reality is broken_. User friendly book, and you introduced me to that one as well. So that gave us some materials to work with in terms of the discussion, Daniel: Great. Great. [00:11:00] Kevin: so, so I Daniel: I guess the larger Kevin: are what are board games and thing, right? as history and defining so, well, I guess defining is what, so what are board games? How did we get there? Why do they matter? And so that would be history definition, but opt McGonagal it seems to me is really working with the, why does it matter? And the whole bit of it is how can we use what works in games in real Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Is that an emphasis that you tried to explore? In the class too, like how can we apply gaming principles to life? Yeah, yeah, Kevin: kind of the phase we're in now. So I thought, I vaguely, I thought of defining some history, different types of games. mechanics. So they would see the ver variety of games out there in terms of what you're actually doing in the game. And then I wanted to think about how they impact our lives, which is kind of a, a real theme of this podcast. Daniel: yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin: So how do we gamify life or what do we learn from games? What happens if we think of [00:12:00] game as, or life as a game? How have games tried to teach and, and. Uh, as, as Monopoly has, as various other games as Snakes and Ladders came out of elements of Hinduism in teaching about difficulty of, uh, living out Dharma. Right. So Daniel: I didn't realize that. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Huh? I could see that. I could see that. Kevin: easy to slide back down. Daniel: yeah, Right, right. So are, are, um, so, so you. So introduce them to these books, uh, grasshopper by Bernard Suits. Um, life is Broken by Jane Mcgon. Oh, you get them thinking about, you know, how can we bring gaming principles to life, uh, to apply them to, to life? Why do they matter? Um, I, I noticed, and you may not be at this point, but I [00:13:00] noticed in your syllabus also you brought in a book that was, that we've not discussed and, and was new to was, was new to me. uh, istra. Um, and so would you mind just take, I mean, really intrigued by that. What are you, are you to that point yet in the class? And, and what role? Okay. Kevin: and this is of course, uh, me, this was what I thought of three months ago. So Daniel: Okay. Okay. Right. Kevin: and it may not work, and I'm no expert with Nietzsche, but he. know, this is the, the 1800s. They are interested in art and aesthetics and exploration and, and play and games are kind of defining some of these things. What is art? What is, you know, what, what, what's going on with this? And, and Nietzche tries to write an alternate gospel from re Christianity, religion, and There is kind of this childlike figure that [00:14:00] approaches everything as play. So Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: I wanted to get at is pick up some excerpts from that and, and how, but I'm not sure there's anything in there where he actually plays a game. Daniel: Okay. Kevin: But his whole approach to things are, is very, um, childlike and playful and joyous. Daniel: Okay. Okay. Kevin: So that was my hope is, is what kind of things did, if we gamify life, is Nche suggesting some ways that might look Daniel: Okay. Kevin: where maybe we're less anxious or more open to failure, or more, more open to be ourselves and less afraid of what other people think? Right? Like if, if you play a game, you have to be willing to lose or look like an idiot, walk away and you're okay. Daniel: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: pretty great lesson, [00:15:00] versus internalizing the failure or feeling like it makes you a bad person. Daniel: So the games, so I mean, so it sounds like on the one hand you have very specific texts about games and the role that humil in life and then Yeah, maybe ster, but in other areas as well. Talking about just kinda general, more general theme of, of playfulness and play. And that kind of maybe gets into the question about the, as you were saying earlier, the the why, um, when you. Design the class and approach the class. Do you have a, a why in mind already or are, are you waiting to see how the why develops as you move on through, through the class? Like the why games, why. play? Hmm. Kevin: Yeah, I think that's the bit that I'm still formulating. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: which is a little secret again, of higher ed, that people that books and things, it's because they taught the class a bunch and they came up with something and they [00:16:00] experi, they wrote lectures or outlines or ideas down. They tested them in class or gave papers on it. So it's been kind of tested out it helps them figure. Sort of an argument or an idea and develop it. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: that's what I'm doing. No, I, I've got some ideas. Um, and back with, uh, Adames, he was really hinting at kind of that we might think of God as someone who has designed the world as a. Daniel: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Kevin: So he entered some of that ideas of, of playfulness in that episode. So Daniel: that one out. Kevin: Uh, so yeah, but no, I've not formulated it. So this is very much a work in progress. Daniel: It reminds me, uh, your reflections on, um, you know, I guess a couple things. There's that old saying, you know, if if you really want to learn something, teach it, you know that they, that Yeah. [00:17:00] Uh, which I hear you saying. And, and then also, um, I may, I, I forget what I mentioned Thomas Merton on this podcast before or not, but Thomas Merton is a, is a one of my most beloved. Authors, um, A Traps Monk who passed away, um, in 1968, I believe. Um, and, um, but just, you know, he just wrote. Uh, abundantly, copiously, and, uh, wrote, wrote formal books of theology and reflection, but also just kept these, these journals, journals upon journals upon journals. And, and I find, I, I, I enjoy those journals more than his, than his, his formal writings. Yeah. Yeah. Um, he just, he wrote down everything and, and I. I don't know if he's the one that originated the quote, but at least he is known for saying, you know, that he writes to find out what he believes. And, uh, and I, that certainly that stuck with me and I, I think [00:18:00] I found that in my own life. Um, you know, like when I, um, Uh, one of the gifts of this job that I is gotta get to write a sermon every week, you know, and, and, um, and yeah, it can be burned some and I complain about it more than I should probably too. But, but one of the gifts of that is that it kind of, Forces me to figure out what I believe every week. You know? And, and I I hear, I hear you saying that as well, you know, that, so, so writing, teaching, this is, it's a way not only for the students to learn, but, but, but for you as well to kind of, um, maybe crystallize your own thoughts and reflection on, on the subject. Yeah. Kevin: come to it as a, I mean, no one's an expert on anything, to be honest. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: is up for revision or examination or, or, , it just takes a couple of good questions to realize something is boneheaded or inappropriate or whatever, and, and you don't know that without a conversation. Daniel: Right. Right. Kevin: [00:19:00] Um, and, and so yeah, this is, this is a, I've tried to stake out an area that I, that you and I both find interesting, but I'm not, What's gonna grow if it's like a garden that we've staked out, we're not quite sure how it's gonna grow or Daniel: Mm. Kevin: interact or intersect. And uh, and yeah. And with classes, it's even harder that it's really till the third time that you teach something that you really start to master it. Daniel: Interesting. Interesting. Kevin: it gets weirder. I've found having taught for years now, I guess 12 years or so, after a while, you know it so well, you end up kind of treating it cavalierly like you don't, Daniel: Mm mm-hmm. Kevin: you end up making weird jokes or, or interrogating it in a way that's not useful because you're almost tired of it. So Daniel: Oh yeah. Kevin: cycle to it. You, you struggle through the book at first or the material, you don't know what's going on. make a lot of mistakes. By the third time you get [00:20:00] it, by the sixth time you probably need to pick a something new Daniel: Wow. Kevin: you're kind of burned out on it. And. Having weird tangents. I, Daniel: right. Kevin: that's why the old professors get into tangents, cuz they're kind of, they're a little bored, but it's just easy to go back to what, you know. I mean, there's bits and books. I, I can visualize the page cuz I've had to look at it so much. Daniel: All right, interesting. Kevin: see what's on that page already. Daniel: How frequently does it happen when you're teaching a class, I guess especially a class you're familiar with, but I guess it could be a new class too, and I, I know this gets beyond just the specific class, but how frequently does it happen where a student will say something that. It just feels like, um, it opens up the window on a completely new area for you? Or, or, or, it's almost like a, like a revelation for you or like a a, a new insight for you or a, a new learning for you. Does that happen very frequently? Kevin: every two Daniel: [00:21:00] Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Kevin: And not that they're just lasting things, but No, it's really impressive when a student says something and you're like, oh, Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: thought about that way. And it could be just putting two things together or seeing it a different way or bringing in a different life experience. But yeah, no, that's the thrilling bit to Daniel: Nice. Kevin: you and, and getting knock you off your feet a little cuz you talk, you're teaching them so you're, it's kinda like being the box. Coach, you're like, oh, you've defeated me once I was the master, now I am the learner. So, yeah, no, it, it, it's, it's really fun to see that. And you've prob, I mean, you've seen that in bible studies, right? Daniel: Oh, yeah, yeah, Kevin: teaching in the church Yeah. Is quite Daniel: yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. No, that what, I think that's a good, that's a good testament to your what a good professor you must be that, I mean, that you're open to learning. Yeah, yeah. [00:22:00] No, that's, that's wonderful. So, yeah. And I like the, uh, the Patwin, the Patwin master. Learner Teacher thing. Reference. Good, good, good. Star Wars. Star wars reference there. Um, I, by the way, I'm, I'm, I wanna be like a Kevin Taylor Padawan. I wanna be like, I wanna be like, I'm, I'm, I'm learning, I'm learning to inhabit this Kevin Taylor universe. Kevin: to become very lazy. Next week we'll work on grumpiness. That's a, you think Daniel: I. Kevin: but it's not. You really have to cultivate a entire life set of grumpiness. Daniel: think, I think I'm well down those roads too already. But the, um, well, Kevin: sorry, go ahead. Daniel: no, I was just gonna, I was gonna move, I was gonna ask you about the game lab, but, but, but keep going. Where you're gonna say, Kevin: where I was gonna go as well. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. So, Kevin: wanted to teach them games and I realized it's gonna be tricky with the fif. It meets Monday, Wednesday, Friday for 50 [00:23:00] minutes. So how do you teach and do a game in that time period? And which games do you pick to sort of show them like, I wanna have a little fun, but I'm also, it's a l, it's a class. I want them to see different design and mechanism choices. Daniel: Yeah. So, so you came with the idea of game lab. So walk us through, please, what, what does Game lab Game lab look like? Kevin: well at some point I realized we should play games on Fridays, that would be kind of fun. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So that's how it Daniel: good way to end the week. Kevin: like a science class in the US we often would have a, or even say a foreign language class, you might have instruction for two-thirds of it. And then on your own you had to. to do a lab where you things, or when we had foreign language back at Wake Forest in the early nineties, remember the language lab in the bottom of Triple Hall and it had little headphones and you'd Daniel: Oh yeah, yeah, Kevin: that kind of experience. Daniel: yeah, yeah. So that's why, Kevin: it ca called it Game Lab, but it really was tricky to [00:24:00] Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: a few that I wanted to play well just because I needed something that we could teach and try to grasp. Running out Daniel: And in 50 minutes, that's, that's a major time constraint for teaching and playing. Yeah, Kevin: So pandemic, we had to do pandemic. Daniel: yeah, yeah. Kevin: such an important game in the history of Western board gaming Daniel: Yep. Yep. Kevin: or I guess international board gaming, let's be honest. So yeah, we had to play pandemic, but we did get very far, um, and we just had to pack it up. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: So pandemic is one, uh, dune imper. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: one, is a great game, and they could see all the different mechanisms. So you've got some, you've got a race in terms of getting to the points first. You've got hand management, you've got worker placement. So there's three different, more than that going on in there. also, I could see they were very, um, confused. Daniel: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Kevin: It was one of those, tell me [00:25:00] what to do Daniel: Ah, Kevin: I can take a turn and try to learn what's going on here. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: they. Gravitated to were things like secret Hitler Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: just because Daniel: a simpler rule set. Kevin: simpler rule set. But it's fun. Like I think teenagers like that kind of thing where it's kind of like, um, among us where there's a traitor, Daniel: Uh, of course among us. Kevin: yes, yes, that kind of suspense and getting to play different roles, it makes them very socially comfortable. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin: Hitler and coup, uh, for good. Great for that. So those are some I tried. Um, Bohnanza was a big hit. That's a Daniel: That's a great game. Kevin: Oh, it's good. It's Daniel: I, I didn't, until I saw this, I didn't realize. A fan of Bonanza. You are. I'm a big fan of Bonanza too. That's, we need to play that sometime. So, yeah. So they like Bonanza, but it was hard to teach in the time constraints. Yeah. Kevin: the, the rules that is kind of Phil's counterintuitive that. Daniel: Yeah.[00:26:00] Kevin: You, you can give them cards at one point, but you can't any other Daniel: Right, right, right. Kevin: you can't mess the order of your hand except for Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: so, yeah, that was good. Um, and King Domino trying to do the, the Euro type game. Daniel: Okay, good, good, good. Kevin: where where you're collect, you're, you're having to build a little kingdom and you're looking for certain things and kind of drafting and placing them for thinking about points and Daniel: So you're thinking you're, you're. Your parameters and trying to decide what games to play to introduce to the students in the game lab, um, were, um, you know, is this something that we can at least get some experience of in 50 minutes with teaching? And then maybe were you trying to do. I hear you saying maybe, but correct me if I'm wrong, maybe exposing them both to games that are influential, that have been especially influential or important, but also, uh, games that are [00:27:00] representative of different mechanisms. Is that, was that kind of the thinking? Kevin: was really going for the mechanisms. Daniel: Okay. Okay. Kevin: say pandemic and bonanza. I don't even, is Bonanza hugely influential? I'm not Daniel: I, you know, I have heard. This was years ago, but I, I, I remember watching, watching a Dice Tower episode, which Dice Tower for our listeners you don't know is a, a a channel on YouTube, which has board game reviews. And I remember one of their early episodes, they were, they were talking about how blown away the all were when they first played Bonanza. Like they were saying, what, I can't change the order in my hand and just how revolutionary that was. So it seems like that had some maybe impact when it came out. Um, originally, I don't know. Kevin: Um, yeah. . Daniel: yeah, so just mechanisms. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: ways games have flourished and different ways you play and, and whether it is Euro style where you're going for points and can't harm the other player, or whether you're [00:28:00] going more amerit. We actually haven't done a lot ofer trash type things where you really are battling and rolling dice, but probably everyone knows that cuz everyone's played mono. Daniel: right? Yeah, that's true. That's true. Are were there any games you played that it just, so you said that they really seemed to resonate with the social deduction games. Uh, were there any games that just did. that seemed like a mis, a miss. Like they just like, ah, this just isn't working. And do you have any reflections on that? Like why, maybe, why some worked and why some didn't. Kevin: I, I think they've all worked. Of course, it'd be interesting to ask them, but I think they've all worked except for the time limit, and we've tr we've tried a bit of scheduling maybe something outta class, but, but it's, it, it's not worked out. And, uh, that, that probably would've been the better answer would be to set up two or three periods in the at night or a weekend where we've got a dedicated, we can really play a game. Daniel: [00:29:00] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Kevin: so we did do Freedom, which is about the Underground Railroad, that was kind of neat, but it, it's neat to see what it's doing. We, I, I did not do a good job of process. Like we kind of played it and then we ran outta time and stopped. So I've not processed what they got from it. But it's Daniel: I. Kevin: game and I'm not sure it's that. I mean, no offense, but I don't know if it's a great game mechanically, but it's a great game in in terms of I appreciate what Daniel: teaching it, it's, it's, it's, it's a good game for teaching something. Is that what I hear you saying? Yeah. Yeah. Which is a, a theme. We've, we have visited here in the past. Actually, we're going to discuss more on our next episode as well, but stay tuned for that. Um, so. Kevin: I should say too. I've only played like twice, so I can't, Daniel: Okay. Okay, Kevin: I actually want, [00:30:00] I've only played it through once, Daniel: okay. Okay. Kevin: qualify that and say that I've not given it a fair chance, but it's not really a game that you just really want to play thematically. Daniel: Well, but it is hard. I mean, it's a hard theme is what, is what we've talked about that That's Kevin: and basically some of the slaves are gonna die. There's no way to, which I think is part of the point of the game, that the, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: path to freedom is, is there's a certain military aspect that you have to be willing to sacrifice some, you know, they, some, some of the slaves have to die so that you can abolish. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: impression of it. And so it's a very unpleasant thing. So we play these war games and you don't think about soldiers and stuff, but this, this because of the theme Daniel: Right. Kevin: and the cruelty of it. So the, the the, you've got slave catchers and they move when they, the slaves, when they see the slaves. Daniel: Hmm. Reminds me of our conversation we had with Dan [00:31:00] Thoreau a couple episodes back that we just started to touch on about game as, as art. Um, a, a and, and. I, I may mentioned another book related to this, RA CoStar's a theory of fun for game design, but just, you know, the more, the more we see games as art as saying something, the more it brings up questions like that. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all for it to be, but it reminds me of like, you know, there's certain movies that your, your comment about. Your experience of playing Freedom reminded me of this. You know, there's certain movies that I've watched and then I've heard, I've heard similar experience in others where they say, you know, I'm glad I watched that. That's important to watch, but I don't wanna watch it again cuz it's, it was so, it was such a difficult emotional journey, I think like, like Schindler's List or Dead Man Walking or you know, and I'm sure they're more contemporary examples, but, Movies that deal with important themes and say something important. And it's important to see them and watch them, but you're not [00:32:00] gonna watch them over and over again because it's such an emotional journey. And, and I wonder if, yeah. I wonder if, I hear you saying that maybe as games become more and more like art if, or seen as art recognizes art, if maybe that same, uh, dynamic can be applied to certain games as. Kevin: Yeah, no, absolutely. I, I think that that's a niche of all art is to challenge us and make us think Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: um, and we're seeing that in board games. We're seeing people creatively. Explore themes that might, um, play with preconceptions or get us to learn something. So Cole Worley is the guy that would come to mind. It's, is most exemplifying that, that I've seen. Daniel: Right. Kevin: for my birthday, what I want is to get John Company's second edition, cuz that just Daniel: I've heard that's really good. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: he's exploring East India trade company in colonialism. Daniel: Hmm, hmm Kevin: so, Daniel: hmm. Kevin: Yeah, I th [00:33:00] there's a real. , there's a real place for learning, Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so you, you. Kevin: I sympathize with the Victorians cuz they, even though maybe they weren't always doing games that were rich moral lessons, they did see that possibility and they wanted to use games in that way. Daniel: Mm. Right, right, right, right. And I think, go ahead. Kevin: no, that's all. Daniel: Yeah. I, yeah, to some extent, as I, as I understand it, my limited understanding of modern Boham history. Yeah. Uh, uh, at least some of the roots of. Board games as a commercial enterprise really do find their roots in Victorian era England. And, and you're right. And those, those were, as I think you probably know more, more about than I do, but tho those were games that were often envisioned as a way of, yeah. Teaching morals and ethics to the players and, yeah. Kevin: of it is that was an excuse for [00:34:00] adults to play games like Daniel: Mm. Kevin: you know, it's okay to play a game with your child that teaches them something, Daniel: right. Which we're still, Kevin: it, you're not supposed to be doing that. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: it's, it's kind of where games are still considered for children. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: as well, Daniel: Yeah. An attitude. We're a perception. We're still kind of still around to some extent today. Yeah, Kevin: in places are with the kids' Daniel: Yep, yep, yep. Yep. Kevin: fine, but it just, yeah, we think of it as a, a kid's hobby, but then you get, uh, stunning 50 year old men like you and I, um, walking through, examining the games. Daniel: And people are like, whoa. If cool people like them are interested in board games, I could do, I could play them too. Kevin: autographs I've had to give Daniel: Which is, is, is, yeah, i, I. Kevin: it's Daniel: I have, I've never heard anyone say, but that's what I would, [00:35:00] that's in my head. That's what I imagine them saying. Kevin: pandemic? I didn't design it. I don't get it, but I'm like, sure, whatever kid. Daniel: Hey, there's that guy Kevin: Barbie bicycle and I bike off down the, you know, through the, through the store. Beep, beep, Daniel: There goes that guy who's the co-host and the guest on board Game Faith. That's, we gotta get his And he can ride a bike. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's the it's the Kevin Taylor universe. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Kevin: I know I, I want to do that. Actually. I should join the Daniel: We should do, let me know. Kevin: Fez hats and little cars raising money Daniel: Yeah. Good things. Yeah. Yeah. I have, I have a, a hat right here actually. Our video viewers. can. There you go. There you go. Kevin: that? Daniel: Um, I think we got this, I think our kids got this, I think it was back when we were into when, and [00:36:00] we're still into to some extent as a family into Dr. Who, but, uh, especially during the, the Matt Smith years, or Matt smith was Dr. Who, uh, was playing Dr. Who. He, um, he would occasionally wear a fez and he had a line that fez. Are cool or something like that? Or, or, or No. Bow ties are cool, but he also wore fez, and I think he said, I think he said fez were cool as well. And so, um, so we invested in a fez because, um, we get all of our definitive statements on coolness from TV shows about time travel. Kevin: Right, Daniel: Um, they they, they know Kevin: time tested. Daniel: the trend is going to continue or not. Exactly. Exactly. Kevin: And although we don't see evidence yet, clearly it's Daniel: Uh, it's coming. Kevin: as well get ahead of the curve. Daniel: It's coming. 2057. Everyone's wearing a fez Kevin: Don't get left out folks. Daniel: You only have, what, 34 years to prepare? Um, that's right. Um, [00:37:00] So, so, uh, oh, so you mentioned process, not having time to process the game. So that was what I was wondering about, is my next question. So, so you, you, we, you have these classes where you talk about, um, game theory and books and why and where, and, and then you, you have the game lab where people, where students experience it, and then what do you do? You invite them to. To process, reflect on their experiences of playing games and, and or is there enough time for that in like even outside of the class or what, is there a next step then to that? Kevin: Yeah. I think one thing I could do is have them rank the games. Which one? And we've done that a little unofficially, but it it, it was interesting how some really liked the King Domino. One student Daniel: Okay. Kevin: domino, cuz it's just sort of very soothing. And the others like the coup because they just. It's sort of in your face and getting to, so getting them to talk about which ones they really liked and why. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: an element that Kate McGonagal, the Rowdy is broken, is really [00:38:00] interesting to, so that, that cuz we're having a book discussion that gets them engaged in talking. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Uh, but, but, and hopefully this last phase of the class, which. well, I guess it's the phase we're still in, which is how, how do we learn from games to be either more religious or more Daniel: Lasting. Kevin: or both? Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: and, um, and we've done a little with magic circles and I still feel like there's more to it, so I have a lot of spidey sense things going off, but I'm not sure how to formulate it. But, um, that, that's kind of the end goal of this. Daniel: Well, I really want to affirm you. You're doing this. I that I have some more questions, but just before I forget, I, I want to affirm the importance of what you're doing because I mean, I think we've talked about this before, both I think on the podcast, but also offline, you and I, Kevin, that you know, this conversation about games and play and religion and spirituality and [00:39:00] what it means to be human. It's not something. a lot of people are talking about, or, or that a lot has been, a lot of books have been written about, or research has been done into, or reflection has been. And, and so, you know, in some ways you're kind of, um, you're kind of having to. Kind of invent the airplane as you're flying in some ways. And, and I mean, certainly there are resources like Grasshopper and McGonagal and, but I, I, I, I think your teaching classes like this and, and other people out there might be doing the same, you know, teaching this, you're really propelling this conversation forward that hasn't really been propelled forward very much. And so I, I think. You are, um, really helping this, this whole larger conversation by doing classes like this. So Thank you. No, i, mean it Kevin: how much I'm helping, but I'm. Daniel: No, no. I, I, if, if I were in North Carolina, I'd take the class. It sound, it [00:40:00] sounds, it sounds great. Well, I, so thinking about, you know, trying to kind of where the students end up in this class and where the class ends up, I saw in the syllabus, Near the end, you know, you ask them to do final presentations and may I ask a little bit about that? I mean, I, I assume maybe not a lot of work has been done on that yet, but like, Kevin: it's, it's the idea of doing a, some sort of a final project, and I'm trying to remember I phrase that in the syllabus, but that they would do some kind of, um, wait, do, do I have a final pr I Daniel: Well, maybe I, maybe I rephrased that. Let me, I wanna look it up too. Just a moment here. you're right. Uh, I'm asking Kevin: research in something they're interested in, so, and part of it is the nature of this junior seminar that they'd go and do some research Daniel: they have to, Kevin: it. So I forget if it's that [00:41:00] presentation Daniel: I see. Kevin: got a final project of some sort. I mean, Daniel: Yeah. This is on the last day of class. It just says final presentations. Kevin: I, I mean, I'm just gonna be brutally honest. Sometimes you sketch these things out and then you Daniel: Right. Kevin: it's, it's, it's kind of a work of fiction, Daniel: I understand. Kevin: class I've never done before. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: um, it may be I use that as a time to sort of reflect on what they've learned or favorite things Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: favorite games like I was saying. So I'll have to figure something out. So Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: very, much a, a, a. Um, yeah, Daniel: I understand. I understand. rough outline Kevin: see how, how it goes when we get there Daniel: Yeah, I understand. I plan out my. In theory, I plant out my sermons for the year and I kind of put 'em, put 'em on a, on a spreadsheet and then, and, and, and people will come out and rightly so, they'll say, you know, what were you thinking for this Sunday coming up next month? And the truth is like, I really have [00:42:00] no idea except for just the little thing I jotted out on my planner, you know? But it's just a placeholder in some ways. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: And if this were a more traditional class with a textbook, we would just go straight through the book. Like it's very clear. So part of this is I've, I'm not used to designing a, a class that is somewhat, uh, an experiment or a, a collection of things. So in term of trying to find resources and how we do it, uh, I'm, I'm a nude to it, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I mean, you gotta start Daniel: Yeah. Well Kevin: figuring out. But no one has a textbook on this and type thing, Daniel: exactly. Exa this, this is, this is, um, This is, you're a pioneer. This is new territory, and we need to write that board game faith book we've been taught, which you're already working on it. You're already working on it. Yes. Um, I just need to help you, the book. Um, so kind of a, the, oh. Kevin: I'm gonna be [00:43:00] Daniel Daniel: insta- lose . I wouldn't be Daniel You insta-lose. Kevin: Loses collector's edition includes Murphy the dog. Daniel: That would be great. Um, so, so, um, Kevin: through the game you have to run an errand. Daniel: that's right. Kevin: you have to just do a random errand for your children or something. You have to like go pick a child up from swim team or something. Daniel: That would be, that'd be awesome. That'd be I, oh, and then, Kevin: up. You have to leave the premises and come back in 20 minutes. Daniel: and then you have to like trek across the country in an electric vehicle to, and then, and then come back and, yeah. Yeah. Um, so maybe final. set of questions for you. You, we talked about what your, we talked about the class and game lab and kind of what kinda hope we, the students may be going. So what about you? So like, what, what are things that you have learned [00:44:00] from this class? What are your reflections on it? Kevin: Um, one thing is that I enjoy being around teenagers and it's really Daniel: Uh, Kevin: to be in a setting where, I don't know, there's a certain. games bring out a sort of teasing and a camaraderie even though there's a little bit of a power bit. Cuz Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: and I have to issue it and I don't, you know, grades are kind of dumb and I hate to do it, but you do have to kind of do something Daniel: Right, Kevin: the way the system is. Daniel: right. Kevin: is neat. It really breaks down that, that stage, on the stage as they joke that that. we're engaged in a certain way and we're creating, and, and it, it feels, um, yeah, it's really nice. It's really nice to connect with them, like they're, they're, they're good people and good kids and, um, Daniel: I, it really, it sounds like it kind of humanizes each other in both directions maybe. Yeah. That's really [00:45:00] cool. Kevin: It is. It is humanizing. That's a great way to put it. So that's one thing I've, I've, I've can take away another bit, is that it's really just nice to learn something and then actually do it. And you can't do that with other classes necessarily, like theology or philosophy or something. I, Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: guess if you were learning Greek for the New Testament and you it, maybe that works. But so many things in teaching with religion, , you know, some things lend themselves to Daniel: Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I could see, I could see that, that in a lot of religion classes, you can't. I can't really have a lab or, or maybe the practice of missions or service or things like that, but, but a lot of cases, not necessarily so. Kevin: one guy I met. An older guy, retired pastor, he said in seminary they did a, for one of their classes, they had to spend 24 hours [00:46:00] on the streets. Daniel: Hmm. Interesting. Kevin: Like they had to survive for 24 hours in 10 bucks, Daniel: Wow. Kevin: you know, wouldn't happen today with liability. I mean, it's kind of scary, but Daniel: Wow. Kevin: sort of see what it's like to be homeless. Was, Daniel: Wow. Kevin: don't remember the, what the class was. It might have been. Social problems or something. But yeah, Daniel: That's powerful. Kevin: of how to make that happen. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: if you're doing a class on different religions and you can visit them, that would be pretty neat. Daniel: yeah, yeah. That's true. Kevin: Um, but, but not every topic lends itself to that. So it just depends on the material. But, uh, yeah, it's, it's fun. It's also fun to explore things with students and, and you do learn. So I guess that's the final takeaway is it's just a great way to learn, is to teach and also to prepare and to be forced. And I mean, that's what we're doing here in this podcast, right? Like, we prepare, but we learn from each other and from [00:47:00] feedback from people. Daniel: Right. Right, right. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, uh, well said, yeah, that we, we, the, the growth in learning and knowledge in the area and and experience with the area is, is, is a collaborative effort between you and your students. And you're right, certainly it's been the case with this podcast too. We've, um, Kevin: Collaborative. Yeah, Daniel: we've heard so many good things from listeners and feedback that. I know have taught, taught us a lot, and guests who have taught, taught us a lot and, um, It's Kevin: Socrates did Daniel: yeah. Kevin: like, well, what do you mean by that? And they would just have a, I mean, Socrates didn't really, he just, I mean, he had ideas, but Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: it through a dialogue. So Daniel: yeah, Kevin: a deep way of learning. Daniel: I think, you know, especially in your class, but I think what we're trying to do in this podcast too, but I, I think in your class too, is there's the sense that there is a, there is [00:48:00] something. Two, there's, there's something bigger and maybe even transcendent about the role of playing games in, in life and faith in, in the world of the spirit and the soul. And because that's not something that has been talked about. A lot in the past. It's hard to know where to begin that conversation and what to say. But what I see, especially in that class and what we're trying to maybe do in our own small fumbling ways in the podcast, is we just to try to have that conversation nonetheless in the hopes that as the conversation progresses, there will develop a clearer picture of. That bigger, more transcendent meaning is, does that seem fair? Um, Kevin: that seems really fair. So thanks for helping me [00:49:00] out. Daniel: well, thanks for, thanks for sharing, Kevin. It was great to, um, to have you as our special guest today. Um, uh, Kevin, any other final questions for your or for the guest? Okay. All right. Kevin: Besides what's coming up, Daniel? Daniel: Oh, I'm so excited about what's coming up. So, So, dear, dear listeners, uh, dear listeners and dear, maybe viewers on, on who are watching this, uh, if you know on some video component as well, we are having some amazing guests coming up and, and, and it started with today. Because today we welcome the amazing Reverend, Dr. Kevin Taylor to talk about reflections on teaching a class I on, on, uh, on board games, uh, game Theory and Religion. Next episode. Next episode, we are welcoming. Uh, another of my favorite, uh, podcast hosts. Next episode, we are welcoming, uh, uh, Mandy Hutchinson from Salt and Sass podcast, a great [00:50:00] podcast that she co-hosts with Suzanne, um, Sheldon and Mandy's gonna be, um, revisiting. With us a, a, a subject from one of our more popular episodes, board games that teach. This is board games that teach two, um, the sequel, the return. Uh, this episode was more about how do you, how do you teach about board games and religion? Uh, we touched a little bit on board games that teach in around freedom. This is gonna be the subject of the entire episode. Next episode. How can we use board games to teach? Because besides being a podcast host, Mandy is also a. And so we, we really look forward to sharing that conversation, um, with her. And then after that, the next episode, episode 27, uh, we are going to be welcoming, uh, Takuya Ono. Takuya Ono is a, um, a Buddhist Abbott, um, who, um, at his temple, um, in, in Japan. [00:51:00] Uh, regularly hosts a board game, uh, playing plays for pilgrims of the people who visit, who visit his temple. And so we're gonna be talking with him about kinda where he sees both the intersection of board games and Buddhism, but also specifically the role of, of board games in his ministry there. And that's just gonna be amazing as well. And I just, I'm so. Oh, I'm so thankful for all of these amazing people and conversations and, and, and listeners. You are among those amazing people. Um, you are part of this conversation and we, we thank you so much for being a part of this community. You are making it better. You are, you are propelling this conversation forward. Um, uh, and, uh, we just thank you. We, we, um, thank you for, for devoting part of your time and energy, uh, to this community. We are so appreciative. Kevin: We got a newsletter coming out every other week, Daniel: Yep. Kevin: subscribe to that through info board game faith.com. Just shoot us an email and tell us you want to [00:52:00] subscribe and we are on Instagram board game Faith. Appreciate Daniel. Daniel: Thank. Thank you, Kevin. It's great to talk with you and we'll, we'll see you all later on. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye