Daniel: ​[00:00:00] what can we learn about ourselves and what can we learn about other people from cooperative board games? And can cooperative board games cultivate spiritual practices and habits in our hearts? On this episode of Board Game Faith, the biweekly podcast, exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. My name is Daniel Hilty kevin: And my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel: and we are grateful. For you tuning in today and being a part of our podcast as we explore some of the spiritual benefits and lessons of, of cooperative board games today. Well, and to get us started, Kevin, when we talk about cooperative board games, what exactly do we [00:01:00] mean for maybe some of our listeners who haven't heard this term before? kevin: board games. It's such a mind blowing experience the first time you play a cooperative board game because most people have played monopoly in kind of competitive games that aren't cooperative games, but a cooperative game, I would define it if a game has an endstate, like a goal. Whatever that is, like to get the most points or be the last person on the board or to own all the hotels or whatever, a cooperative game, the goal is to defeat the board or the game itself. So it's a, it's a different win mechanism or win victory condition you are playing together. And often you will play with a shared objective, like maybe you've gotta achieve two goals or you've got to eradicate the zombies on the board, or whatever it is, but you're playing against the board, you're playing together and you will share information. And sometimes resources, you [00:02:00] might be able to give each other a card or some money. And that shared objective, that coordination, those resources create a very. Gaming experience is, what do you, how would you define or what would you add to. Daniel: No, I, I, I love that idea of, that you lifted up of, of playing. Board, right? That you're, you're not, you're not trying to defeat another person in the game, but you're trying to to defeat some Some, some predesigned set of objectives or goals or challenges that, that are built into the rules. And I no, I, I think you, you summarize that very well, and, and Kevin, I know you are, I think I'm a big fan of cooperative games, but you are an afic aficionado of board games or whatever of, of cooperative games or whatever that that fancy word is. You know, I, at least I know they seem to be a little bit more Yeah, you've, you've explored. kevin: into them. Daniel: Yeah. So I, I, I think that's a great a great definition. in some ways it's almost like, go ahead.[00:03:00] kevin: No, no, you go ahead. Daniel: Well, you know, like maybe some of our listeners are familiar with maybe Dungeons and Dragons, or even if you haven't played it, you, you've, you, you know of Dungeons and Dragons and, and you know, how that's structured is that there is this dungeon master, right? Who's kind of controlling the game or, or at least narrating the game. And, and cooperative games are, are sort of like that, but the, the role of the Dungeon Master is kind of written into the rules itself. Like there, it's, it's not requiring another person to be set aside to keep the game running. But they're written into the rules of the game kevin: Yes. Yeah, that's a great point. That some people misunderstand Dungeons and Dragons at first and think they're playing against the Game Master or Dungeon Master and the Dungeon Master's playing against the other people. But no, they're creating a shared story and experience together. So it, it's hard to be a dungeon master cause you wanna make it interesting and risky, but you don't want to just wipe out your players. but you don't wanna make it seem too easy and no one can actually, you [00:04:00] know, no characters can die cuz then it's not as interesting if there's no risk. So they really have to tune it very well and occasionally. You know, waffle on the rules a bit to keep a team, potentially to keep a team from just getting wiped out. Now some games try to deal with this because they have an app driven system, Daniel: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. kevin: things and so you're kind of playing against an app such as Chat, gi Chat, ai, G P T, Daniel: Chat. Chat. kevin: Chat GPT Chat GPT Daniel: i, I, that is an amazing website. I'm, I'm half of what I'm saying right now is generated by chat, G B T. Yeah. I, I'm, I'm becoming cyborg. So what Kevin, what kind of sidebar, but for those games that maybe are more app driven for, to create a, a cooperative game and this would be like, Y you know, there you have an app on your phone or on your computer that kind of plays the role of keeping the game [00:05:00] going. Do you have any feelings about that? I know sometimes that's debated in the board game hobby community about it's okay to have apps or, no, I Do you have any strong feelings either way about kevin: are purists and they don't want any electronics at the table. I'm fine with it. I just, I find it often does get in the way because your phone has gone to sleep or somebody is you know, you're. Someone's having to consult and look at the phone. Often, even if you have a tablet, you're having to turn it in different ways. So I dislike how it interrupts the natural flow that, that with the board game, you normally are looking at the board and your cards and you can kind of focus on what you want. But if there is a app on someone's phone, you're having to say, Hey Frank, I need you to check the stat on this. And Frank's trying to take his. Daniel: right, right. kevin: and he maybe has to pass it and then someone else wants to look at it. So it's a bit of a hot potato that maybe that's what I dislike, but I, I don't mind. Sometimes it solves the issue of, of [00:06:00] everyone wanting to play and not wanting to have to be the bad guy. There was a game called Descent, and I think it had both versions. Either you could play as the, all the villains or you could use an app to play the villains. So they were trying to deal with that. Issue. We have the original cop, we played it. Samma never quite got into it, but it was famous at it in its day. Daniel: I, I could see value in apps. Yeah. In, in that, right. You're, you are not needing to set someone aside and, and to, to keep the game running and therefore everyone can have kind of the experience of playing and having fun. Well, in speaking of cooperative games, you had made an interesting point. On our show notes, Kevin, before getting into this, you said, you know, a lot of people are familiar with games as being competitive, like, like Monopoly. You listed an example, but you said something interesting about the history of monopoly and cooperative games. Do you mind just kevin: Yeah, I this off of actually good old Wikipedia, the comment that [00:07:00] when the predecessor to Monopoly, the landlord's game was patented in 1903. , there were actually two rule sets to the game. The original is what we think it was Monopoly, where you were competing and trying to win, but then you would play the second rule set where you learned to cooperate and play against capitalism. So that was the goal of the landlord's game. The second rule set. So Elizabeth, is it Ma, it looks like, well, it looks like Maggie, but I think it's pronounced in an odd way, Daniel: Okay. Okay. kevin: Maji or something. Anyway. Elizabeth m Daniel: Yes. kevin: I may be wrong on that, but as some, something, some memory file in my, my, what I call my brain, but you could call my chat g p t skull interface. Daniel: I, that's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna refer to it that way kevin: yeah. But anyway, there's something rattling there about her name, but she not only created [00:08:00] monopoly, but also kind of created a very early. Cooperative version one board with two rule sets is really cool, actually. Daniel: yeah. Yeah. kevin: And she invented, she was really an inventor, invented all a bunch of other stuff too. Daniel: Oh, really? I didn't know that. Huh? kevin: I think somebody is trying to write a biography of her life, but she sounds quite quite, quite a, quite a person. Political and economic interests, and then a, a inventor as well, a very, I think of physical objects and of games. So just kind of a Daniel: And. I think someone for whom issues of spirituality were important as well. I think she's, she's a, a Quaker, I believe, a Quaker Christian. Yeah. And so, so faith was also wrapped up in, in all of this for as well. It's so interesting. I wonder, we might get into this a little bit later on, but I wonder what it says that the competitive rules are the rules that. This is someone else latched onto and made a fortune off of, [00:09:00] and the cooperative rules slowly disappeared and were forgotten over time. I, I, I don't know what that says, but we might, we might touch on that later on. So, speaking of which, you ready to get into some, some lessons that we can learn from cooperative games kevin: I want you to learn something from cooperative games, Daniel. Daniel: Good. Teach me. Oh. Cooperative game master. Hum. kevin: the first thing I would comment on, one of the essential bits of cooperative games is sometimes you are gonna have to take one for the team. And by that I mean you're going to do something that may not be fun or may actually hurt you, or you may actually be eliminated from the game, but it helps the team. Daniel: Hmm. kevin: that sometimes with this, because your goal is to win as a team and you may need someone to, to be in dungeon crawlers, the tank who takes a lot of hits and lets the others [00:10:00] succeed on the mission and or in pandemic, maybe you're having to. Enable someone else to cure the disease, even though you're not gonna do anything very exciting on your turn, besides just move around and give someone a card. But that may, they're the only one that can find the cure. Daniel: Hmm mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So you have to sometimes. step out of the step, out of the spotlight or or adopt the the less shiny role or maybe even the, or even maybe in a way lose sacrifice something for the, the benefit of the, of the larger group. Is that what I hear you saying? kevin: Gloomhaven. Interestingly, when you lose all your health, you don't, you don't technically die unless I think there is a alternate rule where you do die. You can accept that, but instead you're exhausted. But if the team can fulfill their mission, Within the parameters. Everybody wins the scenario [00:11:00] anyway. So one strategy is to go ahead, take one for the team, get exhausted and knocked out, but then you defeat the scenario and move on. Daniel: That is, that's a great lesson. That is a great lesson. It kevin: and it's weirdly re the reverse of an alpha gamer who is someone who is always trying to tell people what to do or take the path of glory instead. Here it's more of a humble, you know, well, I'll, I'll be the one to take this card to Jakarta. Daniel: Yeah. kevin: and cure the disease there. Daniel: It does speak to something along the lines of sacrifice. On, on some level. It reminds me, I forget which Batman movie it was. It's the only, I, I haven't seen many Batman movies, but many years ago I had a friend who said, oh, you gotta see this Batman movie. It's really theological. And I said, okay. And I, I, I saw it and I, I and I do forget which one it was. I think it was one of the ones where kevin: who are the bad guys? Daniel: I, I think it was the Heath Ledger as Joker one. But, and I never got to talk to my [00:12:00] friend about it afterwards, but I, but I, I, I think what he was saying was the movie ended with a strong point that Batman. Came to this point of realizing that he had, he kind, he had to be the bad guy in the eyes of the city in order to for the, for the greater good. And I know Kevin, you and I have kind of talked offline about that as well. Sometimes that, sometimes life kind of puts us in places where we kind of have to be, it feels like we kinda have to be the bad guy, in the eyes of the world for some greater good or whatever. And that's, that's, that's hard. kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Imagine some of our listeners maybe have wrestled with things like that as well, and not necessarily a bad guy in like, yeah. And that doesn't mean like actively creating suffering in the world for the sake of creating suffering in the world, but it means doing things that maybe the long term will help to address suffering and reduce suffering. But it also means that you're not gonna look very good for a while, you know? kevin: Right, or in relationships, maybe you have to be the first one to say you're [00:13:00] sorry or to try to repair things that you may still feel like it wasn't your fault or you were right in the argument, et cetera, et cetera. You're still offended, but you still have to take that first step. You're willing to kind of be humble and step out and yeah, there's, there's an important lesson there that, that. Sacrifice can be the way of the hero type thing, Daniel: Yeah. kevin: or that just being boring. Like I'm just gonna be the guy that moves around and helps everyone else. So to, in basketball, they count the assists. Right? So whoever has the most assists. So you're not scoring, but you're helping others Score. Daniel: Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. kevin: I think that's right. And I think basketball's the one where there's a diamond shape and you run around and you touch bases and whoever has the lowest score wins. Daniel: I think that's right. that's right. And as you're going from base to base though, you have to make sure that you miss the puck as and the person who's sweeping in front of the kevin: correct. There is a sweeper. Daniel: [00:14:00] right. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's, I think we have it nailed, nailed. kevin: the nice thing of the sweeper is no one has to clean up the stadium at the end of the game. Cuz the stadium's clean. It's Daniel: That's right. You say just, just sweep away and then they get bonus points For it. For sweeping. kevin: They love it in Canada. They love them Daniel: it's great. It's great. kevin: sweepers. Yeah. Daniel: I had a question about, well, yeah, yeah. kevin: What are some what, what, what's a lesson? Oh, Daniel: yeah, yeah. Well you know, I think that first one was great. Thank you. That sometimes you have to take one for the team. Another kinda spiritual lesson from cooperative games that occurs to me is just the, the importance of the diversity of gifts. The importance of diversity, of gifts that in a lot of cooperative. You are assigned a different role and this relates, you know, somewhat to what you're saying too, Kevin, that in other words, like not everybody has the same role in a game and, and this is part of the mechanism of the game, it's part of the rules of the game. Often there are like role cards, R o l E cards that, that kind of get randomly distributed and this card says, oh, you're the medic. And this one says, [00:15:00] oh, you're the communications expert. And oh, this one says you are the jello maker, you know, and, and things like that. And it goes around and, and, and based on what role you have, you have certain enhanced abilities, right? So medics can heal disease easier and communication person can, you know, facilitate movement better or something like that. And and, and, and, and that diversity of gifts When we lean into it helps us to succeed cooperatively better. Right? And I, I, yeah. kevin: I'm gonna raise you one on that one, Daniel. I think often in these games you have to lean into your gifts to win Daniel: Yes. Oh, that's so good. kevin: of my goal, yeah, and this actually is a whole, we can almost make this a, a, you know, a se, a third spiritual lesson. But, but you real, you know, part of my goal is to help the medic be as successful as Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. kevin: it's inefficient for me to heal. So how do I help the [00:16:00] medic, this other player, and I might be the, and we're, we're referencing the game Pandemic, Daniel: Right, right. kevin: but the, there's a transporter or something, operations, I forget the term operations specialist, but they can move people around the board. So a, a strong way of in pandemic is to have those two, two people. As players, cuz you're gonna have different roles as you're saying. And the operation expert and the the medic are just tag teaming off of moving the medic around because they can heal. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. kevin: so your goal is to help the other person. You want to be as efficient as possible. So you want everyone to use their gifts as well as they can. Daniel: Mm. . That's so good. kevin: Yeah, it is. Daniel: That is part, yeah. Good job. That, that, that's the part of I mean, I appreciated your insight. That was, and I think that that's, kevin: me. It wasn't really me. You kind of said it. I just Daniel: well, but you took it, you took it to like an 11 man, I had it at an eight. And you No, I had like at a [00:17:00] four. And you had took it to 11. It was great. kevin: You're def in Chat GPT. You're like the 2.0 and I'm like the 1.5 edition. So, so. Daniel: I, I'm, oh, I'm like, I'm like 0.5. You ask me a question and I always return the answer, corn. It's what? I'll just say, just say, say chat. G B t summarized. kevin: Corn.. Daniel: of withering heights for me. Corn. No, but I and kevin: Maze? Daniel: you kevin: know if that is Spanish. That was the Native American Daniel: Yeah. No, it's all good. But, you know, and I, I think what you touched on there, Kevin, really is part of the, one of the lifelong great spiritual journeys for all of us. You know, learning to lean into our gifts, which also necessitates learning what is our gift and what is and what are not, and what our gifts are not. You know I'm gonna be. Quoting, talking a little bit later on in one of our other points about this Quaker writer that I, that I love, Quaker Christian named Parker Palmer. And[00:18:00] I, I wasn't thinking of talking about him on this point, but, so I don't have it in front of me, but he, he also makes this point that, you know, he, he said for much of his life he tried, he tried to be someone that he wasn't. Right. You know, like he tried to, he said like, I wanna be the next Martin Luther King Jr. I wanna be the next Mother Teresa, or the next Dorothy Day, or, you know, or these giant spiritual religious figures, at least in the Christian tradition. And and he said he realized that the more he tried that, the more it was just It, it it, he was just failing and creating suffering in himself and others. You know, that, that because he wasn't leaning into his own gifts, he was trying to copy the gifts of other people and, and that, and that. It was when he finally was honest about what his own gifts are and how he could build on those, that he really felt like he. kevin: I didn't know that story. Yeah, that is powerful. Daniel: Yeah, To illustrate that he, he talks about this, this ancient Jewish story. You, you may have heard some before, but where a rabbi, I think it's yk, I forget his name for sure, but a rabbi was his, his disciples come into [00:19:00] a room and they find his rabbi, their, their teacher, their rabbi weeping, and they say, rabbi, why are you weeping? . And because he was close to death and, and you know, and they said, are you weeping? Because you're, you know, you're afraid that when after you die, the Lord will ask you, you know, why weren't you more like Abraham and Moses? And he says, no, I'm afraid that the Lord's gonna ask me why was I not more like myself, you know? And yeah. Yeah. kevin: good one. Daniel: So anyway, but, so anyway, leaning into gifts, I love that. And it means recognizing that we, all of us move closer. success, fruitfulness, whatever that means. A, a better world. When we recognize the importance of a variety of gifts, recognize that other people's gifts are different from our own, and that means, and that, and that's a good thing. We also see this a lot. We both come from the Christian tradition in, in Christian scripture. Places like First Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 talks about, you know, there's a variety of gifts, but one body, you know, and we use these gifts differently to, to build each other [00:20:00] up. kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Yeah, kevin: And yeah, we, we, we don't need to be a jack of all trades, master of none, whether it's life skills or spiritual abilities or just interests like you do, let let someone else do that. If that's not your thing, there's no reason to be somebody else. So, Daniel: yeah, yeah. We can't. We can't. None of us can be God or, or yeah, or kevin: it's not in our job Daniel: no, no. So that's, that's a, that's another spiritual lesson. Kevin, how about you? What's, what's another spiritual lesson from cooperative games? kevin: I'd offer up here is that cooperative games are really good at involving people in a low stress way because some people are not, they don't wanna play or they, they get. But I mean, if someone doesn't play, doesn't wanna play, it's fine. But maybe they don't wanna play a competitive game or they don't understand the game, or you know, there there's various [00:21:00] barriers to playing a game, a cooperative game. You can kind of say, look, here is your role and we're gonna work together and we'll, we'll suggest things that you can do. and it's your choice always in these cooperative games, if it's somebody's turn, they get the final say. But look, you're not in this alone. You don't have to sit there and feel like, oh, I've only got half the points that Daniel's got. Right. So instead, we all play together and we all win together. And that's a very inviting, I guess that's one thing I've been, become, I've been more aware of is, is. Ways that invite people, whether it's cooperative like this or whether it's kind of a dice luck, push your luck type Daniel: Mm kevin: creates a low barrier versus a heavy Euro game creates a high barrier cuz you can really feel dumb in a, in a high stakes Euro game where one mistake or two really knocks you out of the game. So I appreciate games that. [00:22:00] a bit more inviting that are rooted in luck or cooperative. Daniel: I love that. That's so good. Kevin and I, I've never really thought about that before, but you're right. Cooperative games are much more inviting and welcoming. And I mean, you, you, you say it so well, and that's, that's, I know I've had that experience before and you, I'm sure you probably have two, you know where you are. Yeah. Inviting someone to take part in, in a, in a group, in a board game group or whatever. Boy might, and, and, and for a lot of people, for whatever reason, they've had some experience in life where they'll say something. What you said, like, oh, you know, I'm no good at games, or, oh, I feel, I feel like I'm not smart when I play games. Or, you know, it makes and, and, and, and to say, oh, this is a cooperative game. Right. You know, no one's out to beat each other at all, but we're all working together toward this, this goal. That's, that is so encouraging. for can be for folks, you know, and, and, and welcoming to the game. I, I wonder, [00:23:00] I wonder what ways that can be applied to other areas of life too. And I, I'm just, we're we're going off script here, and I, and I don't have any answers to it as either. I just, I don't have any answers to it. I'm just thinking about it. I, I wonder ways of applying that in other areas of life, but, kevin: Yeah, I mean, one thing, it's just vocabulary. It's just so easy to use the lingo of a, of a world that newcomers aren't gonna get. So as methodists, we have certain language, cuz all organizations do, and Daniel and I are both United Methodists, so we talk about Apportionments and we talk about Book of Discipline and so many. even lifelong Methodists don't really, they've never seen a book of discipline. They don't know what that means. So what is this? What Daniel: potluck dinners? kevin: potluck dinners? Yep. What is this thing? What do I just put dice in a pot and bring it? Like what is this potluck what are the expectations here? What is this mean in, in sixth grade English? Just, just give it to me straight. Daniel: yeah, yeah. kevin: [00:24:00] yeah, so I, I, I Daniel: I love that. kevin: those little hints. So there's. because a ha, a lot of time, if it's an esoteric word, half the people are actually thinking, I don't know what this means. But most people are so scared, ashamed, they don't want to be embarrassed, they don't want to be ashamed. We're all seven year olds in a second grade class worried the teacher's gonna call on us. We all have that primal fear. Daniel: Yep, yep, kevin: yeah, it's really hard to, to be willing to play a game and. Get negative points, Daniel: Yeah. VO vocabulary. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Vocabulary. kevin: that, Daniel: Yeah. That's a great, that's a great. Example. Yeah. Thank you. I, I, I, I think religion in general, in my experience, at least my observation or my, my 2 cents or whatever, it can sometimes, or maybe even frequently, I don't know, kind of create challenges for itself because of that reason. You're right. I [00:25:00] mean that we use a specialized vocabulary and I think about even like, like broader terms, it makes me think about in some of. listeners might disagree and that's totally fine, and you might disagree too. I think about, you know, there sometimes in the Christian tradition, the broader Christian tradition, where we come from, you know, we'll, we'll say things about, you know, we'll use certain vocabulary like, well, Jesus is Lord right, or Jesus is Savior, or whatever, and. when else do we really use the words Lord and Savior in any other place in life? You know, and it's, it's, those are, those are in some ways, even those two are kind of specialized words that we've inherited from a past era. And, and I struggle with sometimes, you know, how do we find ways of talking about that in, in, in recognizing, yeah, these specialized terms that really are not part of vocabulary in any other place in life anymore, and make it intelligible to kevin: thought of that. You're, you're right. Like the word Lord is a whole, we just don't Daniel: like, like Downton Abbey is the [00:26:00] only time we . Right, right. Yeah, kevin: like a judge or something, like we have a sense of certain people have a role and the judge walks in and everybody stands up or something, but we don't, typically in American, I mean there's still upper class and lower class and all sorts of things, but we don't use the language and vocabulary. We don't have categories of, of a Lord and what that means. So yeah, that is a, shows how much the world has changed and. Daniel: Yeah, yeah kevin: and it doesn't mean we change our language, but we explain it or we, we couch it, or we, Daniel: Right, right. Become just aware that. that it, it, it, it may not necessarily be as accessible as we think it might be to folks outside, whatever our tradition is. Yeah. kevin: And even for Christians, if you, if someone says Jesus says Lord well, what does that mean for you? Daniel: Right, right. kevin: You, you're a Catholic and you participate in the sacraments of the church. Does it mean that you've had a a [00:27:00] conversion experience if you're an evangelical like that, that phrase has come to, can mean many things. So we kind of have to have a, well, what do you mean by that? Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. kevin: so yeah. Good. Well, what, yeah, what is, give me number four. No, no, no, Before number. Daniel: Yes. Before number four. Is it? Is it? Is it? Is it mailbag time? kevin: It's mail bag time Daniel: It's mailbag time. Woo. Okay. Mail bag time. We are opening up our listener mail bag. We haven't done this in a little while, and we just wanted to pause before our final two spiritual lessons for cooperative games. Just to, to recognize and say thanks. Some of our awesome listeners we have just amazing listeners and that we love hearing from you, and we just wanna say thank you so much. First is we have, we had a listener highlight on our newsletter. We have a spot where you can tell us a little bit about. and and, and we ask if we can highlight you on air. And so today we're highlighting one of our news letter subscribers. Jim, [00:28:00] Jim is from Pennsylvania. He's a software engineer. And one of the things we ask people, we say, what are you awesome at in, in, in our Get to know You survey? And he says He's awesome at finding problems or loopholes and processes. And then he adds, which isn't something that my. Always enjoys me pointing out . And kevin: So sub talents are good at work, some are good at home, but you also have to keep quiet a little. I Daniel: that's true. Diversity of gifts in diversity of places maybe is kevin: exactly. Exactly. Daniel: I, I understand that too. Jim says he listens to board game faith because because of the gaming from a Christian perspective, but also along with views from other religions as well. kevin: Wanted that to be, that's something we've really wanted to be a mainstay, so I'm glad you're connecting with that. Daniel: yeah. yeah. That really, that means a lot. And then lastly, we ask what game he's into. I know. And, and Jim says, kevin: Jim. I need your address. Daniel: know Jim says he's really into heat pedal to the metal right now, which he says is a good fit, cuz he's become a huge Formula One fan. Yes. So Kevin, I keep hearing about this game, but I've never played it. I've never [00:29:00] seen it. Do you know anything about this? kevin: I don't know how you get a copy unless there's a certain, because I think I even looked online and it's just sold out, but it is getting rave reviews. I've never had a racing game like that. Like there's down force or something that some people have. Daniel: Yeah, we have down force and we, and we love it. But looking at pictures, I, I, heat looks a lot to me light down for us, but I never hear any comparison between the two. So I assume it's gotta be a very different kind of game. It, it, it looks really. Downforce is great. kevin: If I see that, that's sort of one of my list of things to, to, you know, my to buy if I ever find it list. So, versus my would steal from Daniel List. So it's different li there's some crossover, but, Daniel: I'm, I'm I'm honored kevin: really want heat pedals and metal. It also, it looks fun and interesting and somewhat light in a good way, like not a heavy crunchy game. But then there is a really neat legacy type thing where you play [00:30:00] through certain scenarios and cards change, so it's got several layers to the game. Daniel: that sounds awesome. That's the days of Wonder game too, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So Jim, kevin: optional to. Daniel: Yeah, I so Jim, first of all, if you have any tips on where we can find heat pedal for the metal, please, please email us and let us know. We'd love to find out. And secondly, yeah, just thank you so much for listening and for letting us share some information about you. We really appreciate you being out there. We appreciate all of you who are listening and who are subscribers to our newsletter and part of the board game. Faith Family, you all are, are awesome. And we love, we love highlighting you. kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: And a couple of others. We've gotten some feedback on some episodes and I just wanted to share that as well. Back in episode 21, we had an episode on how to start a board game group at church or at a place of worship, a temple or a synagogue or a, or a, a mo Oscar Islamic center. And and camping Mele had a response. And by the way, camping me has a fantastic account on Instagram. If you ever want to follow a really great account, check out Camping me on. kevin: Do you [00:31:00] know there's two things that Camping Nepo likes. Can you guess what those two things are? Daniel? Daniel: Is one of them. Corn. kevin: That's the third one, but Daniel: Okay. Okay kevin: before Corn and Chat, G P t, AI Brain Services are camping in board games. How Daniel: Oh, that makes sense. That that's much a better answer than corn. I like it. Yeah. Good. And so, so this is what, you know, in, in that, I had talked about how I found from my experiences with church board game groups, I really kind of need to keep the games light and accessible just cuz most people aren't into hobby board games. But this is what Camping Mepo said they said we're trying to keep a board game day happening more often at our church. But it was interesting listening to your last episode because it's generally hobby people, hobby board gamers that come to their church, to their board game group and, and says, you know, kevin: think is kind of unusual. I don't know, but Daniel: Yeah, kevin: that's an unusual, in a very cool setting. Daniel: yeah. I think, and so it just speaks to the point of, of course, [00:32:00] everything being contextual. And, and it's a great point, you know, if you've got a lot of board gamers in your community, in your, in your house of worship, go for it. But, but then camping people did go on to say but they agreed that generally the games need to be accessible. And as an example, last time they brought their 10 year old to board game night. and having more accessible games helped. So camping Mele, thank you so much for for that feedback. That's awesome. And then, and then the last feedback was from another wonderful Instagram account, re-engineer. The game re-engineer. The game is another really delightful, wonderful Instagram account. I I encourage you to, to check it out as well. I don't know whether they're into corn. Or camping or board games, either by, no, they're into board games. And and, and in response to the question for this episode, what can we learn from cooperative games? Re-engineer the game said humility is the first one that comes to mind. You can be humbled in cooperative games by being outplayed, but in cooperative games you can choose humility over being an alpha player or simply get beat by the game. And Kevin, I really think that ties in well with [00:33:00] what you were saying earlier about taking one for the. kevin: was thinking, he's stole my thunder there. Yeah. Yeah. So, and he's got a nice inversion there that you can be humbled in a competitive game, but in a cooperative game, you may need to be humbled by choice, that you can win by choosing to be humble Daniel: Yeah. kevin: others win as a team. So, yeah. Yeah, it's a really nice way to put it. Daniel: Well, Re-engineer the game and Camping Niel. Thank you so much for the feedback and thanks for letting us hear from y'all. And we, we really appreciate you both and your all, all the great content you all are putting out for the board game community. So, and if you have any thoughts, you, dear listener on such things, we would love to hear from you as well. kevin: that's right. Daniel: So, kevin: game faith.com. Just let us know. We'll sign you up. Daniel: Yep. Yep. kevin: us an email. Number four, Daniel: Number four. Alright. The important, another spiritual [00:34:00] lesson for cooperative games is the importance of trusting other people's kevin: Ooh, that's hard. Daniel: It is really hard. I know, I know. Because, you know, when you're in a cooperative game, you can be like, oh, I, I don't think what this person is doing is a good idea. And Oh, you know, and, and, and there's this kevin: your choice, but we are going to lose Daniel: Right, right, right. And there's this tension between do you step in and correct the per in your v in your mind, correct. The person, or do you make the choice to let the per make the person make, allow the person make their own decision and, and find. That decision to allow them to make their own choice, have find that that has more inherent value and worth than trying to do what you think needs to be done to win the game. And, and, you know, is there more damage that you can do in the grand scheme of things by stepping in than by trying to kind of make the decision for them. And it does remind me, this is where I was gonna talk. [00:35:00] Parker Palmer this Quaker Christian theologian whom I just really, I really recommend Parker Palmer to folks. And there's this this part, this section of his book, hidden Wholeness, that was really I important to me. When I read it, it reminds me a lot of this idea of trusting out people to make their own choices. And I thought, if you don't mind, Kevin, I could to share it here, is that for, for our listeners and for you? Alright. Thanks. So, so so here's a Parker Palmer Rights. We need to understand why the soul so rarely shows up in everyday life. , the poet Robert Bly offers one explanation. It is our powerful ego drive to pull everything into ourselves and to let nothing live for itself. This idea of, we, we kind of, we, we, we let this, almost this mindset that we let everything live for us, you know, but instead of letting everything else live for itself, behind that drive, Parker Palmer goes on. Is our disbelief in the reality and power of the inner teacher. The inner teacher is kinda the Quaker word [00:36:00] for Holy Spirit, like the Holy Spirit being in you, teaching you. And, and this is a hallmark of Quaker theology, this belief that, that the Holy Spirit is within each person and, and so there's this source of wisdom and guidance within each person that's far greater. Then whatever we can project on them, convince that people lack inner guidance. This is Parker Palmer. Convince that people lack inner guidance and wishing to quote, help them. We feel obliged to tell others what we think they need to know and how we think they ought to live. And we might add how, how we think maybe they ought to play on the board game. And then he concludes by saying countless disasters originate here between parents and children, teachers and student. Supervisors and employees originate. That is in presumptious advice giving that leaves the other feeling diminished and disrespected. kevin: right. Wow. Daniel: Yeah. That was a power that that was, that was a really, I, I don't live up to it, but that's been a [00:37:00] transformative. Or an important passage in my life, especially about the parents and children part. But it applies to cooperative against too. But I've thought about that so much in my relationship with my kids, you know, that in the long term, what's greater value here is will I be doing more harm if I don't step in or will I be doing more, more harm in showing that I don't trust their decisions? You know? kevin: right? Freedom to fail Daniel: Yeah, yeah. kevin: So hard and never an easy answer and everyone's gonna mess up, whether it's in any relationship. But yeah, really allowing that space and that integrity and that autonomy that someone can make choices and and not feeling like you need to say, I told you so, or should have listened to me. Unsolicited advice. Nobody wants. In general. So yeah, trusting other people's choices is really tough, especially when it's something that you, you may know more about, like you may actually be right and you just have to hold your tongue and that's really tricky. Daniel: Is it sounds like this [00:38:00] is a tension you have felt in cooperative games as as well? I, I certainly have. Yeah. kevin: if you have played cooperative games and you've never felt it, they're either always new games and, and you weren't experienced with it or. God bless you. You may be an alpha gamer, and that is a term to mean. I take it as like an alpha dog, somebody that always wants to combat or be in charge or tell others what to do. You won't be leader of the pack if you don't know what it's like to have to hold your tongue and watch mistakes happen. You probably shouldn't be playing cooperative games cuz you're probably that guy. You're probably the alpha gamer that's driving everyone crazy cuz you're, you know, telling anybody what to do. And in the words of Z Garcia from the dice tower, you should probably get some dice and just go roll 'em in the corner by yourself and be like, I won, I lost, I won, I lost. Right, Because, the cooperative game is about respecting other people's choices. Now you can advise Daniel: Yeah, kevin: and you can try to convince, but you've also gotta empower and step back. Daniel: Yeah. kevin: [00:39:00] This is what they chose to do. We gotta do it Daniel: This, that's, that's so right. I, this is not the perfect solution and I fail at it frequently, but sometimes if I think about it, what I try to do is maybe at the beginning of a, of a, of a new game for someone if they're just learning it to say, like, now are you the kind of person that would like some, some advice or thoughts on strategy or, or do you just kinda wanna figure it out yourself? And, and, and if I often people are kind of honest about that, you know, they'll say, oh no, I'd just like to figure it out myself. Or but kevin: like an assist? Would you not? Or just ask me if you have any questions. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, kevin: and then also saying, you know, if we lose, we just play it again. Like, Daniel: Yep, yep, yep, kevin: beautiful thing. It's just a game. Daniel: yep, yep. kevin: Yeah. Number five. Daniel: Yes. kevin: The Daniel: number five, kevin: lesson Daniel: the fifth and the fifth and final spiritual listen lesson from cooperative Games. kevin: P T 5.2 Beta C Daniel: Corn.[00:40:00] kevin: Chatbot for the win again. Daniel: No. I have to admit this is the least developed one, but I think it gets at something that's important f at least for me and I maybe for our listeners. I kevin: Oh, I think it's just the most important one though, Daniel. Daniel: well, but it, thank you. Well, well, but it, it, I, I can't quite sort out my feelings on it, but I, but I want to, I want to name it, I don't wanna ignore it, which is that individual achievement feels different from a communal achieve. Individual winning individually feels different from winning communally. And, and, and I'm trying to be really honest and, and and open to kind of what I feel like what my feelings are here about this. I, if I'm really being honest myself, there's a certain rush that I get from winning an a competitive. that I don't get in quite the same way when I win a cooperative game. And, and I [00:41:00] think I, I don't quite know what to do with that, except just maybe at the, for at least the first step, just to be honest about that, you know, just, just to name that, that there's, and yet, you know, and yet I would say the cooperative games. a much greater and more positive impact on the lives of others and the community. Yeah. When I, and I think about, I was trying to apply this to kinda like my, my. Like my work, you know, outside of games and, you know, I could think about times may , maybe a few times, maybe not many, where maybe something might be qualified as like an individual win where I've just done something versus a corporate win, like the whole team or the whole group. And you know, the individual wins always fade pretty fast, but, but the corporate wins are the things that last and that have the biggest impact and that really are the most beautiful in the long run. Your thoughts on this, kevin? kevin: I'm totally, I actually, I to a hundred [00:42:00] percent agree that, and I. Back that up a bit. The Aristotle, the great Greek philosophers, pointed out we are social creatures. He said political animals, but by that he meant we just live in cities that, that we are herd creatures. Now there are some exceptions, people that want to, that really can live as hermits by themselves, but in general, we are social creatures. And the pandemic reminded us of that when we were all stuck inside. and, and the walls got. the four walls got smaller and smaller it felt like, because we wanted deceive people. So yeah, if you can only take one game to a desert island, it probably should be a cooperative game because if you meet someone else, you're gonna have a shared experience of, of something that's really great. Daniel: yeah. Yeah. kevin: but, but the, but that doesn't mean that individual wins aren't awesome. And yes, it is a, it is a, it's, it's, it's more of a rush, isn't it, to win a competitive game that you've practiced and you, you know, [00:43:00] you're getting your reward. Like, it's like, oh man, I worked so hard at this game and I planned this out and had a little bit of luck. And I, then I capitalized on that luck. And then I. Found the fifth treasure chest that gave me five x points. Like that is awesome, but I think it also fades pretty quickly. Daniel: Yep, yep. I agree. kevin: if you've played pandemic season one and you got to September and you didn't know what was going on and you were with a group, you will remember September. Daniel: I haven't gotten there yet. kevin: just, yeah, it's just marvelous. And, and so there's those moments of remember that time and yes, it is a it's just we, I think we're social creature. Daniel: yeah. Yeah. kevin: And, and while playing games against each other is socializing, it's not the same as achieving a common goal, which is what a cooperative game does. And one of the highlights of board games we've heard again and again in this podcast from guests and listeners, is the sense of community and being with others. That's why we're playing these [00:44:00] games in the end is because we are social creatures. So cooperative game really highlights and brings that out in a special. a shared narrative. Daniel: I agree. I love that and I love that sense that if you, if you could have one game on a desert island with someone else, that would, a cooperative game is, is great. The, the competitive games are good for that short term individual rush, but for, for building that sense of community and lasting That, that lasts um, it, it, though, it does remind me, I think it was Jane McGonagal that said this though I may, I may be misremembering. I think it's Jane McGonagal who said that. You know, there's a cooperative element even in competitive games in that we all agree ahead of time to the same set of rules, right. That we, we, we all, and, and I love, I think maybe that helps me to see even something of the cooperative spirit in competitive games. You know, that, that it, it's, we're, we're all agreeing to have to work toward having this experience together, you know? And maybe that can put a little cooperative spin even [00:45:00] on competitive games. kevin: Yeah, I mean, there is playing a really good game and maybe you won, maybe you lost, but you can enjoy it together. So that's, that's still, you know, even acknowledging the defeat is still cooperative now. When you lose all the time or you're not getting better at it, that's a different sort of experience That's, Less cooperative Daniel: yeah. right, right. right. kevin: like, I'm never gonna play this game again. So, Daniel: Well, so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so Kevin, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. What are, if pe some of our listeners maybe aren't familiar with the cooperative games, what are some cooperative games that, that you would recommend? kevin: is the classic and all of the legacy versions are great, but season one is just one of my great, I don't want to oversell it, but every, everyone that loves bore games should pl play season one at some point. It's just that foundational, but Gloomhaven, Frosthaven, Jaws of the Lion. I love those games because [00:46:00] it's a puzzle at the end of the day, how to win the scenario and you. Working together, but then you can have your own goals as, or you will have your own goals and your own money and your own upgrades and characters. So I love how it blends just a little bit of individual goals, but you still have to work as a team. Aham Horror. The card game is great and Cthulhu death may die. Cthulhu Death May Die is, it's kind of like a pandemic. You have certain roles and you're really sharing information and it's fun. It's fun. Daniel: And has Fantastic Minis, right? kevin: Fantastic minis. It's kind of corny. It's like, you know, you found another room of the, the little bits about the backstory. You find a group of cultists, well better get this wrapped up by dinnertime. So it's very it's very pulp fiction, tongue in cheek, and it's just fun. Ali Karar loves this game too, so and so does Alex Radcliffe. So they both pray. I mean, it's just a [00:47:00] great game. Daniel: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Cool. Well, I love, I love, love all the love that list. Thank you. I, I haven't played all those games, so the ones I've played Jaw Through the Lion Pandemic, I I love, I love as well. I just had a few other ones to add if to the list of cooperative games that you're kevin: you, what are you thinking? Daniel: Atlantis Rising. I learned about this. You mentioned Z Garcia earlier. I learned about this by watching one of his videos on Dice Tower. It's a cooperative game you're trying to get. The citizens of Atlantis off of the island before it sinks into the ocean and you're working together to do it. And it's, it's really fun. And the board is such that you're flipping pieces of the board and you're, you're, you're visually seeing the island sink as it goes on. You're seeing, you're seeing the water overcome the island. It's really fun. It's really fun. Just one, the game is called just one that's. One of the biggest, most popular hits in the groups I've ever been in, especially for non-gamers. It's a cooperative game. People just love it. Just one. If you're looking for a great cooperative game for, especially for [00:48:00] non-gamers, Okey-dokey is a, is a fun, cooperative card game. It's tricky, it's puzzling. It's, I think it's now called Level 10 if you look it up at Board Game Geek, but it's, up until recently, it's called Okey-Dokey. Similar. Very, very light cooperative game. We actually just played it last night in our church board game group, but it's a lot of fun. We were trying to figure out whether the secret card, like we play with animal cards whether the animal, the secret animal card, you're trying to figure it out by, based on similarities or differences to other animal cards, and that's really fun. And then Seventh Continent, A game we've talked about many episodes ago, but that's a really, I enjoy it. I enjoy it. It's a big game, big table presence. Not necessarily easy to find, but if you're wanting kind of a, kevin: too, like you can. Daniel: yeah. kevin: I've had to, I've had to basically look up how to ch you know, some of the answers cuz I couldn't Daniel: Yes. I've never kevin: a lot of time and get stuck. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, kevin: God bless walkthroughs, Daniel: yeah. Yep, yep. kevin: That's cool. Wow. I gotta check some of those out. Daniel: hello. [00:49:00] Thanks and what's coming up? Next episode, kevin, kevin: episode in two weeks. Daniel: in two weeks. kevin: I've had the nice opportunity at, at the waterfall opportunity at, at where I work and teach at Pfeiffer University to teach a class on board game theory. Daniel: Nice. kevin: so I wanna report back on some of the things that we've done and what I've seen for this group of students. It's kind of a, a new territory. So yeah, we're gonna talk about some of the stuff I've tried to do and, and what seems to have worked with the. Daniel: I'm super excited to hear about this, Kevin, you, you've really been a little bit, you've been telling me about it. It just sounds like you've really been doing some cool stuff and I'm, I'm eager to hear about your reflections. kevin: You. Yeah, I'm excited. It's been great. And listeners, we love you. You're the best. We wanna hear from you. So email us and Instagram. Easiest ways to get us. What's our email address, Daniel? Daniel: Our email is info board game faith.com, [00:50:00] info board game faith.com. We actually have two working ones. You can also do board game faith gmail.com, but either one of those will, will get to us. Yeah, and like Kevin said, you can find us on Instagram and yep. Board Game Faith Instagram, we have a Discord server. You can find that in our link. On Instagram we have a newsletter that you can find a way to sign up for that in our link tree as well. So we're on Facebook as well. That you can find it there too, but it is not as much traffic there. But our link tree is on Facebook too in our profile. kevin: Yep. And thank you everybody. Daniel: Thanks so much everybody. Have a great week. kevin: Goodbye. Daniel: Bye-Bye.