Daniel (00:07.188) Have you ever noticed how often people talk about faith in terms of negative statements? Like, if you're a person of faith, then you should not do this, or you should not do that. Or if you're a person of faith, then you should not believe this, or you should not believe that. We human beings seem to have this tendency to make religion and faith about putting limits on people and restricting who we are. Daniel (00:45.384) But what if the point of faith is actually the opposite? What if the point of faith is to set us free for something better? And what if play and games are the primary way that the Spirit of God makes that kind of freedom a reality? It's the spirit of play on this episode of Board Game Faith, a bi-weekly conversation exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games! Daniel (01:37.908) Hello and welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. It is so good to have you here on this podcast space, this YouTube space if you're watching online. We're so grateful that you've decided to spend a few moments with us. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:55.338) My name is Borgamefaith. Hello. Daniel (01:59.54) heaven has come to embody the spirit of board game faith. You just live it. You're changing the, you're the family, you're changing your legal name, right? Is that it? You're yeah. Kevin (02:05.154) Hello my children. I just live it. But Kevin (02:12.95) changing my legal name. Yes, I'm excited about that. Until then though, I shall still answer to Kevin Taylor. So hello. Daniel (02:21.856) Okay, Kevin Taylor until board game faith. Well, we're grateful, board and myself to welcome you. Is it board? Is board is just your first name and faith is your middle name? Okay. Our middle name is middle name and faith is your. All right. That sounds good. I like it. Kevin (02:35.386) Yes, yes. Board game faith. You know what my kids call me is bored B-O-R-E-D. Those little meeples. That's so many thoughts. Daniel (02:47.412) There's so many possibilities when you're playing, you could say, game is my middle name. And you could do like, um, and Mr. Faith. That's just, that's like a great name for a pastor too. I love it. Kevin (02:56.63) Mr. Faith! Mr. Faith, it's your turn. What? Daniel (03:03.196) Um, so we are glad to have all of you here today. Today is the next installment, another installment of board game faith book club, where we take a look at, at a book or an article, that's right. An article club, um, today where we take a look at, um, some written piece about, um, faith and play and games and how all of that comes together. And today we're taking a look at an article, um, recently published just last year, right? Um, Kevin (03:12.837) Or article club. Kevin (03:32.865) Mm-hmm. Daniel (03:33.184) called Play and Freedom, Patterns of Life and the Spirit. And Kevin, you might just say a little bit, how did you come across this article? It's a great article. Kevin (03:43.846) Simeon Zal is a good friend of mine from grad school, so I tend to keep tabs on what he's up to and he is teaching theology at the University of Cambridge in England, and so I just cursorily, cursoral, cursor oriented, I read this article just curious what he was up to and then I was like oh my gosh this sounds like the kind of stuff we're talking about, so that's why I Daniel (04:03.758) in a Daniel (04:12.04) Yeah, I'm so glad you did. Kevin (04:13.886) Yeah, and it is open access, so we'll include a link, which means that you don't need to pay to read the article. So, though it's an academic journal that normally you have to subscribe to, I guess, though things being as they are these days, sometimes some articles are open access, so it's just free on the internet. Daniel (04:31.74) Yeah, I was curious about that on Sidebar. How common is that to make an academic article open access? Kevin (04:38.258) It used to be uncommon, so I don't know the state of things and maybe they're experimenting with it, or I'm not sure why. This is the International Journal of Systematic Theology, I believe, which is a major theological journal. So normally, yeah, you would have to pay $50 a year, or something like that, to subscribe to it to get access to it, unless you're a library. You may have a library near you that has access. Daniel (05:07.539) Okay. Kevin (05:09.002) So yeah, that's kind of unusual, but maybe it's a new trend. I don't know, we're old. Daniel (05:11.592) Yeah. Well. Kevin (05:15.938) We used to read the Christian century through carrier pinging. Remember that? Yeah. Yeah, it was good times. Daniel (05:19.964) I do remember that. I do remember that. Yeah. Sometimes it would be like years delayed if there was had been a strong storm or it was active hurricane season or something. And yeah, then the, no, I'm glad. Kevin (05:29.344) Right. Kevin (05:34.422) Yeah, and sometimes the carrier pigeon, remember they had, they subbed out the carrier pigeon supply. So you get weird things like French garden studies. Daniel (05:39.825) Yeah? Daniel (05:45.852) Oh, right, right. Like the carrier pigeon would have been intended for someone like in Nice or Marseille, but somehow they ended up in Missouri because Marseille sounds a little bit like Missouri, especially if you're a pigeon. If you're a pigeon. Yeah. I mean. Kevin (05:48.883) Yeah, you got the wrong... Kevin (05:59.082) It does, actually it does. If you're a pigeon who speaks a Latin based language. Daniel (06:08.345) their command of English is, I mean, they're still learning. And in fairness, they know their English is pretty good for a pigeon. So anyway, yeah, so I do remember that. So now everything is accessible online, sometimes free, sometimes not. But I'm so glad that Kevin (06:13.196) Right? Kevin (06:19.435) Right. Daniel (06:33.8) Professor Zoll, Simeon Zoll made this available. And yeah, if he's listening, thank you so much. This is a great article. So, play in freedom, patterns of life in the spirit. It begins with a problem, right? It sets out this problem that we're kind of alluded to in the intro to this episode as well. But Kevin, how would you summarize the problem? What's the problem that he's trying to get at? Kevin (06:59.938) Yeah, this is sort of a uniquely Protestant Christian issue, which is Protestants tend to focus on, or some, I should be more specific, some Protestant Christians really focus on a law versus grace or law versus gospel dynamic that to be under the law is to be, and this is coming from a way of reading Paul in the New Testament, that there's a lot of aughts, there's commandments, and that grace frees you to... hopefully freely fulfill the law, but never because you have to. So it's kind of a question of is grace a something that removes you from the law or does it empower you to keep the law? Christians have this debate over how to understand the law of God, which is holy and good and true and yet seems to fail for people because of sin. Is that fair? So, some Protestants have tended to focus on freedom from the law, and as Simeon points out and others have pointed out, they aren't real good at saying what that's freedom for. So, we're free from the law, great, now what do I do? What was I... so I was thinking of the Barbie movie. What was I made for? So haunting, yeah. Daniel (08:14.334) Right. Daniel (08:18.888) Yeah, the Billie Eilish song. That's a, it is a haunting song. Yeah, it's good. That's a good movie too. Kevin (08:24.374) Yeah. Kevin (08:27.986) It was good. I enjoyed it and I enjoyed the message. I did feel like it was a little long. It could have been Cleaned up a little but it's just my opinion You know, like by the time they got to the building and they're trying to meet the maker of Barbie I was kind of I don't know Daniel (08:35.092) Hmm. Okay. Daniel (08:44.001) You were ready for it to be done. Yeah. Kevin (08:45.566) I think so. I like the big dance off seemed like so climactic. I was a little surprised by the, but maybe that's just, I've only saw it once. Maybe I need to watch it again. Daniel (08:56.528) Okay, okay. But yeah, I like, so yeah, the sense that the spirit frees us from the law, but, um, you're right, that often kind of like, kind of begs a certain question about like, well, okay, so, so what, or like, because I mean, there's kind of this implicit understanding then that, uh, Kevin (09:12.458) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (09:20.968) we're still kind of following the law, right? Or in a way, we're just kind of, the spirit kind of frees us to not do the bad things that the law tells us not to do, which is kind of a backdoor way of saying, we're still, it's still about not doing the bad things, right, or not, is that kind of how you take it? Kevin (09:23.541) Mm-hmm. Kevin (09:39.314) Yeah, or it's that because of the rebellion of the human heart, if we're told we ought to do something, we kind of can't really do it because we automatically rebel or we resent being told to do it. So the only way to truly do it is to become a new creation that is not under commandment. But then what does that look like? You know, how do you know and what are you supposed to do? And so that's where Simeon's... Daniel (10:02.64) Right, right. Kevin (10:07.43) saying that we can actually highlight some marks of the spirit in the Christian life. And these marks could be available to other people, too. It's not necessarily restricted, it's just he says that we can point to if the spirit is at work in your life, there ought to be some patterns or dynamics that are visible. Daniel (10:30.324) Right, right. To say that the spirit sets us free should have some, I mean, it should mean something positive. Positive and good, yeah. So what does that look like? Right, right. Kevin (10:39.743) Right. positive and recognizable. It's not going to be, okay, you're going to speak Czech language and you're going to start flying and you're going to eat paint. I mean, it's not going to be random crazy stuff. It should be things that are sort of following some kind of Christian pattern. Daniel (10:57.76) Right. And so he so he kind of starts to kind of. Daniel (11:05.588) paint a picture of what that might look like. By the way, do you happen to remember or know Simeon's background in terms of religious background out of a certain tradition or? Kevin (11:17.79) Yes, it's Episcopalian Anglican, but very influenced by Martin Luther. So that's that Luther law versus grace element. Yeah, his father is an Anglican priest, and his brother too. Daniel (11:20.293) Okay, okay, cool. Daniel (11:24.273) Okay, okay. Daniel (11:27.972) Okay, okay, wonderful, wonderful. Okay, okay, okay. Cool, yeah. Kevin (11:38.294) So yeah, so the first mark, he says, of how the Holy Spirit would be is a bit of a dodge, you might say, but is still true and fair and accurate, which is that the Spirit is free and won't necessarily fit a system. And that's kind of cool. And he calls up the language of the Bible and describes God's Spirit or the Holy Spirit as being fire and wind, which are uncontrollable forces. Daniel (11:54.216) Yeah. Daniel (12:04.764) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. I love how he, yeah, recalls the language of the Bible, we're talking about the Holy Spirit being, yeah, it's like the wind and you don't know where the Spirit is coming from and you don't know where the Spirit is going and just that uncontrollable, unpredictable movement of God. Kevin (12:07.55) and unpredictable in some ways. Kevin (12:23.937) Mm-hmm. Kevin (12:30.602) Right. And so that's a powerful critique in some ways because you can point to, I mean, all religions can get rigid about what religion looks like, and so you can criticize that medieval Catholicism got kind of rigid in some of its practices, and then the Protestants showed up and stressed freedom, but what do the Protestants end up doing? The same sorts of things. The Kevin (13:00.386) that is constraining the spirit. That Christians should always be prepared to be surprised is part of it. That it, while it's gonna stress freedom, it doesn't mean it's always gonna look the same. So that's why I kinda say it's a bit of a dodge to say that the spirit follows a pattern, but part of that pattern is unpredictability. Yes, yes. Daniel (13:02.804) Right, right. Daniel (13:06.612) Yeah. Daniel (13:22.616) is like no pattern or kind of, yeah, yeah. Kevin (13:25.942) Which is free then to choose the pattern. Like the spirit could lead someone to exactly be a classic Protestant pastor, but it could also lead someone to do something very different. It's not controlled by patterns, but it could pick them up. Daniel (13:41.588) Does it seem to you like a kind of a related sidebar? how often, or it strikes me, I'm interested to see if it strikes you the same way, how often religion as it goes on over the generations and the centuries. Daniel (14:03.684) has this tendency toward trying to make God like controllable and predictable and or how much kind of day-to-day spirituality that seems to center around that. I'm remembering someone saying something about how, religion's like trying to put like, lightning in a bottle, right? And you just, and it's this kind of this idea of this, does it? Kevin (14:30.808) Right. Daniel (14:33.248) Does it seem that way to you? It seems like it's kind of a catch 22 with religion and faith, that it's based on this experience of a God who's radically free and can just do all these, just go whatever direction the spirit of God wants to go in. And religious people say, that's really great, the freedom of God. Let's put this lightning in a bottle and make it entirely predictable and something that we can control for the next thousand years. I don't know, any thoughts on that or does it seem that way to you? Kevin (15:00.53) Right. Yeah, no, I actually, I guess the older I get, the less surprising I get it is to me, because that's history, that's people's desire to control, that's power, that's institutions that they want to settle down and make it predictable and maybe monetizable. And it's not just religion. I mean, look at the sciences that Einstein came along and talked about time. Daniel (15:03.752) Yeah. Daniel (15:07.188) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniel (15:13.257) Yeah. Daniel (15:18.388) Yep. Kevin (15:25.566) and gravity being relative and people thought he was kind of crazy or scientists predicted there must be black holes and people thought that was crazy like that didn't make sense and then they finally agreed and now we have pictures of black holes to some degree. So we tend to people like to stick with what they know and. If you're in a position of power you're a bishop or Europe the. Daniel (15:40.594) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kevin (15:51.398) endowed chair of biological sciences at a university, well you're not going to like someone challenging everything you've spent your life on. Right, so I guess I guess it doesn't really surprise me and people aren't comfortable with change. That's why we still have pennies in this country. So that's a little pun there. I didn't actually mean to make change, but yeah. Daniel (15:59.264) Mm-hmm. Daniel (16:16.281) Oh that was so good I didn't even catch that! Kevin (16:18.058) I did, it was unintentional, but yeah, I mean, we're still, it's like, can't we just get rid of this or can't we get rid of daylight savings time? But you know, we're kind of stuck with it. Daniel (16:30.104) seem to be kind of the catch-22 of a catch-22, I'm sure there are others of organized religion, whatever the stripe and variety and flavor. Kevin (16:41.238) Yeah, I mean, can you really organize something that is inherently unstable? And that's the answer is kind of no, like people will eventually want to make it stable. Make it fit. Daniel (16:51.688) Right, right. So then, yeah, does it be right, right? Kevin (16:59.678) Here's a random example, sorry, go ahead. This is a random example, but I was reading recently, wow, this is probably too much in the weeds, I might have to cut this out. But if you ever have to get a colonoscopy, they still tell you to fast the day before, but they've known for 10 years it doesn't matter. But the GI doctors are afraid to actually follow the science. And the science has said that as long as you eat the right foods, like pastas and other stuff, it's not gonna be an issue once you do the prep. Daniel (16:59.84) We're trying to... Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Daniel (17:28.212) Really? Kevin (17:28.214) but they're still afraid to tell you that, yes, yes. And it's been documented. They've done the study, but this is how they were trained to do things in med school and residency. And what are you gonna do? Adopt the new stuff and screw up your clinic, you're afraid, for a week or two, because you've told everyone wrong? They just keep doing what they always know. Oh, that's just human nature. Isn't it crazy? They're supposed to be scientists, yeah. And you think it'd be, and make the patients, it will make the patient's lives better. Daniel (17:38.941) Interesting. Daniel (17:45.488) Right, right. That's so interesting. That shows the power. Daniel (17:56.284) Right, right, right. That's... Kevin (17:58.134) But the doctors are afraid to take the risk. So they're like, yeah, the day before, don't eat anything, buddy. Good luck. We'll see you tomorrow. Daniel (18:05.5) the power of the big fasting lobby. Daniel (18:11.408) like if people stopped fasting. Kevin (18:11.9) Sadly, they don't pay their lobbyists anything because they don't make any money. Daniel (18:17.996) You know, related to that, yeah, and I, yeah, this is quite a weed, but it's okay. I like how we've got a subsection of busting colonoscopy myths here. But related to that, you know, most folks are sedated for colonoscopies. We're so much showing our age here. Everyone under the age of 50 is like, what? Kevin (18:19.47) That's funny. Kevin (18:26.518) Right. Ha ha ha. Kevin (18:42.198) Well, they're recommending him now at age 40, I think. I think or earlier, yeah, because there's more cancers, anywho. Daniel (18:44.936) Really? Okay, well, that makes so, there you go. But you know that you're usually sedated, but that's, I didn't realize it's very much an American practice that in a lot of parts of the world, you're not even sedated for it. Like in Europe, you're not. Yep, yep. And it makes it actually, it's much less stressful on your body if you're not sedated for it. I imagine you're kind of relaxed in some way, but yeah. Yeah. Kevin (18:51.95) Mm-hmm. Kevin (19:00.055) Really? Kevin (19:09.422) What? Daniel (19:12.624) It's only, it's a very U.S. thing that you're, anyway. Woo! Board game faith, busting colonoscopy myths. That's deep there. All right. So anyway, getting back to just, so this all came out of the sense of we're, we are resistant to change and to try new things. We like to stick the way, we like to investigate things, including God. Yeah. And what? Kevin (19:16.948) Interesting. Kevin (19:22.774) Your colonoscopy, your game. Kevin (19:34.698) Yes, and we want to domesticate things. Yeah, including Daniel (19:41.684) And I forget whether Simeon actually uses these exact words or not, but I remember I made a note in this article that at some point, he almost talks about this kind of borders on a kind of idolatry, right? Um, that, yeah, yeah. That we say, basically we say, okay, here's how the spirit of God has worked in the past. And, and we, um, Kevin (19:56.758) Yeah, no, he does. He does. Yes. Daniel (20:10.216) we make an idol of that, right? And we say, because this is how the spirit of God has worked in the past, this is the only way that the spirit of God can ever work in the present and in the future as well, right? And so we ossify it, we turn it to stone. We, it's basically, yeah, like we make a statue of God in one way that God worked in the past, and we say, this is the eternal only way that God can ever work. Kevin (20:19.398) Mm-hmm. Right. Daniel (20:40.928) It's saying like, I experienced God this way, so everyone else has to experience God this way forever. It kind of makes faith a very selfish thing. Kevin (20:43.374) Mm-hmm. Right. Daniel (20:52.229) Yeah, did that kind of... So then, that got me thinking about... I'm going in a different direction here than you want to go in, Kevin. Kevin (21:01.314) Uh oh. Kevin (21:04.798) No, no, I just, I was teasing about thinking. Got you thinking. Uh-oh. Don't you think, young man? Daniel (21:10.441) Okay. That got me thinking, um, about, um, what does that mean about our popular ideas of, of destiny, right? That I, the older I've kind of, I know the older I've gotten, um, and, um, man, we are, we are, we are just diving so deep into the, um, we're getting to be old men genre in this episode. Kevin (21:22.876) oooo Daniel (21:37.576) But the older I've gotten, I think I've come to be, I've become more and more aware of how this kind of popular notion of destiny has kind of infiltrated our language of faith and our thinking about faith and church and spirituality. This idea of destiny is a very, you know, it's a very popular idea. It's something we see a lot in our... in our cultural identity in the West. You know, we love figures like, you know, like Luke Skywalker whose destiny it was to overthrow the empire or Harry Potter, right? Kind of this one who is chosen to overthrow Voldemort or Buffy the vampire slayer, right? This one whose destiny is to overcome the vampires or Wonder Woman, you know, but these ideas that. Kevin (22:26.262) Love, puppy. Daniel (22:31.42) from the very beginning of your first, from your first breath, you were destined to do this thing, right? This great thing. And so we're very comfortable speaking of language of destiny, right? I was looking up destiny, you know, before this episode, and it comes from this Latin word to make firm or to establish, right? That there's this end of each life, there's this goal of each life, there's this purpose of each life that is firm and established and it's been set and we have to fulfill it, right? And we take that into our language of faith as well. And this is what it means to be a person of faith, that we have to fill our destiny that God has given us. But that's so much the opposite of what we're talking about here. We're talking about the freedom of the Spirit, right? That the freedom of the Spirit is all about God saying, I can move however I want to move. Kevin (23:08.451) Mm-hmm. Kevin (23:23.67) Yeah, yeah, that's a great connection. Kevin (23:30.626) Right. And to some degree you can too. Daniel (23:30.764) And, uh, I can call you exactly. And my spirit, it makes you, um, I find that so liberating, but also in some ways, so counter-cultural. Kevin (23:42.71) Yeah, no, you're onto something. And I saw it with teaching undergrads that a lot of them had a vague notion that there was something they were supposed to do with their lives, but they were supposed to figure it out. And I thought, God, that sounds very stressful. And the same thing about a future romantic partner spouse that there was one person that was out there for them. And when I pressed them on it, some of them weren't religious. So it wasn't God or Daniel (23:52.316) Yep, yep. Kevin (24:11.466) religion that was telling them this, they just there's this idea there they had a life partner that they had to find, they were destined to find, and I thought gosh, seven billion people out there and you think there's only one? Like mathematically, like there's only one person and what do you do when you find the wrong one? I get that's yeah I totally agree that there's a weird vague sense of destiny floating out around in our culture and I think a lot of it's this strange fear instead of Daniel (24:23.932) Right, right. Daniel (24:29.521) Yeah. Kevin (24:41.186) Instead of accepting human freedom, people, I don't know. Daniel (24:45.556) Hmm, interesting. We say we wanna be free, but in some ways, maybe there's this almost unspoken, maybe unconscious desire in us to, for someone to tell us what to do, right? We're here to go and yeah, yeah. Kevin (24:58.378) Yeah, I think so. And I think that's more stress... it's stressful to say, well, I have to make it on my own, but it's also stressful to say I have to figure out what I'm meant to do with my life, because both of them have paths of failure. But you're right that to stress the freedom of God and that God would respect our own freedom, that's a kind of wonderful message that people lose. They go to destiny. Daniel (25:24.306) It almost seems to me like that's become... kind of the popular understanding of faith or a popular understanding of faith, a popular understanding of religion, that maybe even people maybe who may not necessarily identify themselves as explicitly religious, and certainly a lot of people who do identify themselves as explicitly religious, when you kind of push them a little bit about kind of, well, what does faith mean to you or what does a spiritual life mean to you? I think that my hunch is that would often be a common response, right? Kevin (25:45.399) Mm-hmm. Kevin (25:57.802) Mm-hmm. Daniel (25:58.44) that I have this life out there that's meant for me. And I'm trying, you know, and I have to find it, you know, and I have, that's what the point of, and again, it goes in the exact opposite direction of what the article is talking about, right? Of what Simeon's talking about here, this idea of God's radical freedom. Kevin (26:06.538) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (26:18.885) Mm-hmm. Daniel (26:27.348) in history and in people's lives, right? And the freedom of that gives us as well. Kevin (26:30.008) Right. Kevin (26:33.79) Yeah, no, it's exhilarating in a lot of ways. You can make it up as you go along and you can course correct and maybe God respects and empowers our choices and is not for ordaining it. Now, it does get complicated that if God has knowledge of the future in some ways, God already knows what you're going to do, but foreknowledge isn't necessarily control. Daniel (26:36.596) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (27:00.072) Why is that freedom so scary? Why do we not like that? Kevin (27:07.406) I think we like being told what to do and we like to conform. Daniel (27:12.096) It's interesting. Cause that's so much goes against what we say, right? I mean, in our politics, in our songs, in our movies and everything, it's all about, no one can tell me what to do, right? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (27:12.182) I don't know. Yeah. Kevin (27:17.645) Right. Kevin (27:27.946) It's all lip service. So, I mean, just sit outside of middle school and just watch the kids and how they walk and dress, and you'll realize how powerful conformity is, right? Nobody wants to step out. They all are wearing the same branded shoes and clothes and hairstyles and all that. I mean, there's some exceptions. There's some subgroups and exceptions, but in general, most kids, the urge to conform is very powerful. Daniel (27:38.72) Mm-hmm. Daniel (27:45.116) Yep, yep. Yeah. Daniel (27:56.724) Right, right. Kevin (27:58.29) and the acceptance of freedom is scary. Yeah. So to Simeon's point of view, the spirit enables a freedom, whether we follow up on that or not, the spirit is free and encourages our own freedom, and the spirit is playful. And this is where my BGF alarm bell went off in my head. And actually I have a real alarm bell too that I press on the wall. Daniel (28:03.508) Yeah. Daniel (28:23.496) Yep. Well. Daniel (28:28.08) I like how board game faith is both your alarm clock and your name. You've gone deep into embracing this. Kevin (28:36.01) Well, I'm a lazy man and I'm getting older and I'm forgetful. So if I just call everything board game faith, then you know, it's fine. And my car is board game faith. It's an addition made by board game faith car manufacturer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So the spirit is playful, meaning that it causes joy and delight. It is creative. It is open. It is free from anxiety about work and judgment. Daniel (28:47.795) Yeah. Daniel (28:52.608) I like it, I like it. Kevin (29:05.718) So this is a positive vision of how Christians should live in the world under the aspects of grace. Not critical, not controlling, not negative, not judging. These are aspects that some Christians live out, but don't reflect Jesus' life or the message of the Gospel. So yeah, I love this idea of play. And how does that play into the idea of work? Because this was cool. Daniel (29:41.108) Yeah, when he... In discussing kind of this idea of play and grace and how it relates to work, he draws from the work of another scholar, Nimi Waribako, who I believe, I hope I'm pronouncing it right, who teaches at Boston University, and who very much explores kind of this idea that of grace and work and play. And according to Wari Bako, I think he quotes him in the article saying, grace is a negation of work, right? That if work is all about earning something, and I guess that is often how we define it then, right? We work to earn a paycheck, we work to earn respect of others, we work to earn a grade, you know, if... Kevin (30:16.501) Mm-hmm. Kevin (30:36.758) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:42.9) If work is what we do to earn something else, then it is by definition the opposite of grace, because grace is that which is given us, which we don't earn. Right? Yeah. And then, Uri Boko here says that play is its style of negation, right? Or that... Kevin (30:55.882) Yeah, right. Kevin (31:10.702) So yeah, grace, yes, yes. Grace negates work and expresses itself through play. That's the key bit. And you've long hinted at this concept, Daniel, because you've liked to say that play is grace. And so you were getting to this point, yeah, of really thinking through that playfulness is... Daniel (31:11.068) grace that expresses itself through play. Daniel (31:20.372) Yeah. Kevin (31:41.246) is kind of purposeless, or its purpose is itself, right? And so it doesn't earn, it's not focused on something else, it's not focused on getting something, it's focused on a certain freedom and engagement and enjoyment. Daniel (31:46.236) Yes, yes, yes. Daniel (31:55.664) Yes. He uses this term autotelic, which I would not have known before reading Berkman, Oliver Berkman, we talked about a few episodes back in his wonderful book, 4,000 weeks time management for mortals. In that book, Oliver Berkman talks about activities as being atelic. And both of these words come from, you know, the Greek telos, which is about like kind of the Kevin (32:00.29) Mm-hmm. Kevin (32:08.564) Mm-hmm. Daniel (32:24.648) the ultimate end of something, like the ultimate purpose of something. Like in the Christian Bibles, when Jesus says, be perfect, he uses that Greek word, telos, meaning be that for which you were created to be, which then, oh, Kevin, that brings us, what's that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so both Berkman and... Kevin (32:42.432) I didn't know it was that word. That's cool. I didn't know it was that word. Yeah. Daniel (32:53.936) And this article that we are considering today, Zal, talks about how, uses words based on this. A workman talks about atelic, meaning play as activity, which does not have a purpose or a goal. But then I love what Zal does. He uses this phrase autotelic, which kind of like, it creates its own goal and purpose as it's going on. And that's so good, right? Because we've encountered this idea before as play, Kevin (33:06.293) Mm-hmm. Kevin (33:14.033) Mm-hmm. Kevin (33:18.029) Yeah. Daniel (33:23.74) Like you were saying, Kevin, you know, play as without goal, without purpose, without, and that's, but in a way, you know, it's not quite, it's not quite right. And I'm not saying that you're saying this, but I'm just, I'm just saying when you encounter this idea, that play is without purpose because, you know, as you were saying before we went on the air, Kevin, that, you know, Bernard Suits, who's Kevin (33:28.12) Mm-hmm. Daniel (33:48.924) Our much beloved Bernard Suits, who goes back to our very first book club at the Grasshopper in Board Game Faith. He says, you know, play is the overcoming of unnecessary obstacles. And so that in itself implies a purpose or a goal. The purpose of the goal is to overcome these obstacles. But here's the thing. In play, those goals of overcoming the obstacles, those obstacles themselves, those purposes, they're so unimportant. Right. They're so obviously unimportant, which makes them unnecessary that they are freed from this burden of seriousness and of ultimate purpose. You know, um, and that's what makes it so genius. That's, that's the gift of play that we have. They, they, we have this meaning of, of these goals and these purposes that, that the play in itself creates. Kevin (34:17.514) Yeah, that's right. That's it. That's it. Kevin (34:25.922) Yes. Daniel (34:44.532) but they're so obviously apparently... Daniel (34:51.144) without seriousness and without burden that no one, that we don't have to suffer under this burden of thinking that what we're doing is of this eternal ultimate significance, right? Which just kind of ruins everything. You know? Kevin (35:06.702) Mm-hmm. Kevin (35:12.406) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's so great. I mean, if you think of like, say tennis, if I handed you a tennis racket and a random encounter on the street, you're like, what is this? What do I do with this? I mean, it's not an umbrella. I can't read it. It doesn't have any purpose in my life. But if we get on a tennis court, all of a sudden. Daniel (35:29.044) Yeah. Kevin (35:32.054) That's how you play the game. So, you know, right? So the game has a purpose within itself, which is in monopoly to be the last man standing in tennis, to have the most points, and these arbitrary rules. But when the game ends, none of that matters. Daniel (35:33.78) That's so good. Daniel (35:48.692) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (35:49.25) The real game of life, which is surviving and prospering and eating and getting a good night's rest. Like there's these other things, right? They have purpose or they have you get a good night's rest so you'll feel good tomorrow. And I guess you might play a game because it raises your mood. But but yeah, games are this weird thing that are kind of strangely. They have these rules that are that would seem. idiotic to say a Martian or something or someone who's never heard of that game. Like I don't get cricket, so it doesn't make any sense to me. Daniel (36:20.18) Right, right. And yet they give us that sense of that satisfaction of overcoming an obstacle or barrier as Jane McGonigal talks about in her book. But they're like just, but these little kind of bite size goals and objectives. And you're right, and because they don't matter, we don't, there's not this crushing sense of failure or sinfulness or brokenness or whatever if we don't achieve them. Kevin (36:22.999) Yeah. Kevin (36:29.954) Yeah. Kevin (36:49.038) Mm-hmm. Yeah for board games, it's cardboard and plastic and you put it in a box Like what is more ridiculous than that? But in the middle of it, I'm sweating and I'm nervous You know where you're watching people are watching the Final Four for ACC basketball and they're screaming their heads off they are they're totally lost in Watching people play an arbitrary sport and that's really amazing and really great. So yeah Daniel (36:49.949) Yeah. Daniel (37:00.412) Right, right, right. Daniel (37:07.87) Yeah. Daniel (37:15.444) sidebar, are we in the final four right now? Is it final four time right now or is that already passed? And the final four... Kevin (37:21.106) It is. It is. Yes. Daniel (37:29.276) Are we talking, is this like a Lord of the Rings thing? Okay. Kevin (37:32.726) Yes, it's the last four Nazgul who will compete to then be in the Hunger Games. I think it's how it works. Daniel (37:45.904) I am very interested in the final four. That sounds great. Kevin (37:48.234) Yes, yes. One basketball to rule them all, one basketball to bind them, one basketball to bring them all and then the darkness find them. Something like that. Daniel (37:59.464) I want to see a game begin that way. That for maybe our listeners outside of the US or maybe who are, yeah, so the final four is a college basketball annual tournament where they try to crown the best college basketball team in the US. Kevin (38:18.986) Yes, and people, it's a big deal, especially in areas where basketball is very popular, such as the southeast United States. It's and then there's lots of great teams. I don't know if you've heard and I'm really not a sports person, but NC State North Carolina State University had a terrible team, but somehow just got had a Ted Lasso moment and made it to like the sweet 16. Daniel (38:43.157) Really? Kevin (38:43.818) I think or the final like, you know, there's 16 teams and then eight and four Yeah, they just shocked everyone the coach was actually going to be fired at the end of the season and all of a sudden they won like five games in a row and everybody was just Thrilled and now the coach has yeah, it was very Ted lasso like out from nowhere This team just got religion and started crushing really great teams and no one could believe it It's a real Cinderella. They finally got knocked Daniel (38:59.104) That's amazing! Daniel (39:10.585) Do they have an explanation for it? Kevin (39:12.882) No, they really don't. Just somehow something gelled. The team finally gelled. Daniel (39:18.844) Wow, that's great! Kevin (39:20.01) Yeah, it was really cool. So I even enjoyed watching it. And normally I'm very bored, but yeah, it was great. Daniel (39:26.62) You are in, you are in basketball, the basketball corridor there in, uh, in North Carolina, right? And it's, yeah, yeah. That's cool. Kevin (39:32.638) Yeah, it's very big here, along with other, I mean, yeah. So yeah, grace here is something that is manifested through play, and that's just such a wonderful notion that play is something we do, it's an activity, but it's also an attitude to life, that the spirit, I mean, what is more, what is a more mess? Daniel (39:46.504) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (39:58.93) What is a more wonderful message from Christians than to say the Spirit of God is freedom and it's playful? That's so... You know, that's put Christianity putting its... It's putting its best foot forward. Yeah. Daniel (40:05.856) Hmm. You know, that sounds like good news to me. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, and I love that sense that as you just articulated that Zoll talks about this idea that play is almost more of an attitude than an activity. And in terms of an attitude, contrasting what we were talking about before, it's almost the sense of like, if you come from a perspective of like, Kevin (40:22.946) Mm-hmm. Daniel (40:40.68) the weight of ultimate destiny, you know, and I have to have to in all things, fulfill work toward fulfilling whatever destiny we're talking about. And this, this moment has to be in service to my future destiny. And this activity has to be in future in service to the future destiny, the very best instrumentalization that both Zoll talks about and Oliver Berkman talked about in his 4000 weeks book, that if we do that, you know, it just brings this crushing Kevin (41:01.162) Mm-hmm. Daniel (41:11.528) weight of seriousness and, um, unrealistic, unrealistically high expectation to every, to every moment. If we live that way versus if we kind of approach it to this, this playful sense of, of auto teal like moments of the sense of each moment, kind of creating its own goal, its own purpose, then, you know, then, then when you come to a moment, it's not, how can this fulfill my destiny or how it can be like in this moment, what does it mean for me to be a person of faith in this moment? Right? And that's so freeing in a way. Like you're not having to, what does it mean for me to show love in this moment? Or what does it mean for me to be a person of integrity in this moment? Instead of this, having to, yeah, go ahead. Kevin (41:48.247) Mm-hmm. Kevin (41:59.307) Right. Kevin (42:07.091) Yeah, and if Christian faith, and I think Jews and Muslims would get behind this as well, part of this is overcoming idolatry, which is false gods, this is a freeing message of saying none of these things are God, whether it's work or having the right... Daniel (42:17.02) Mm-hmm. Kevin (42:26.366) address or zip code or house or having a perfect life or presenting yourself as perfect. Those are all false gods and this is unmasking all of them. You can be playful with your job and your family and your relationships because none of them are actually worthy of infinite attention because only God is. So there's sort of a destruction of the idols like Muhammad does when he cleanses the what is it, the Kaaba thing in Mecca or something that I saw in a special somewhere. I'm admitting my thin knowledge of Islam, but yeah, there's a very powerful notion that God is the only one we serve and everything else is, well, it's important that we take care of ourselves and our families and mow our grass and be, you know, and do things that are... Daniel (43:03.581) Right, right, yeah. Kevin (43:24.598) conducive to human flourishing, none of them are worthy of infinite attention. They're just things and we can be playful, like, yeah, I should mow the grass, but maybe I'll do it tomorrow. Daniel (43:34.655) Yeah. Kevin (43:36.926) And that's what the Good Samaritan was doing, right? Like he was able to see that someone was in need, versus the priest and the Levite in Jesus' story had places, had, you know, important things to do. Yeah. Daniel (43:37.074) And if... Daniel (43:48.864) That's so good. Yeah, you're right. You're right. The priest and the Levi, they had their ultimate goals to fulfill, right? Yeah, to live out. And here comes this Samaritan who's like in this moment. Kevin (44:02.762) Yep, picking his nose, whistling. Right. Daniel (44:05.044) What's the goal of this moment? Yeah, what does it mean to be a person of faith in this moment? Kevin (44:10.07) Yeah, and oh my gosh, there's the person in need. This is my neighbor. Probably the priest and Levite were going to temple to give a lecture on who your neighbor is. That's not how Jesus tells it, but that would make it even more ironic. Daniel (44:13.308) Yeah, yeah, that's so good. Daniel (44:26.649) It would, it would, it would. I have found. Daniel (44:33.328) I have found over the years, whenever I'm preaching a sermon on like, you know, the importance of loving our neighbors, so often it feels like even before I get out of the church that day. there'll be some situation that presents itself where that requires showing love in a situation that may be kind of difficult to do in some sort of dynamic. And it always feels like God is saying. Kevin (45:03.405) Yeah. Daniel (45:09.328) Okay, you really mean that? Or, okay, those were nice sounding words, but yeah, yeah. You are a fraud. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's very true. Kevin (45:11.361) Yeah. You are a fraud. Oh. Yep. Those are, that's a voice to listen to as we. As we try to do the right thing. Yeah. So interesting. So, so interesting and frustrating, but real, but yeah, play is fun and being alive should hopefully be fun and God should be fun to some degree. There should be delight and joy. Daniel (45:33.129) Yeah. Kevin (45:43.366) in following God. Daniel (45:45.308) Yeah, yeah, I like how Zal ends the article that we're talking about the experience of play ultimately as fun, right? And he brings in the word delightful too, which is a word that we return to fairly often on this podcast too. I love his quote from Augustine, sermon 159, apparently. Kevin (45:54.414) Mm-hmm. Kevin (46:03.991) Mm-hmm. Kevin (46:11.211) Mmm. Daniel (46:13.948) By the way, sidebar, I like that. I don't like naming sermons. To put them in the bulletin. I'm just going to do that from now on. I'm just going to give them numbers. Summer, summer number one 59, um, where Augustine says one only loves. After all, what delights one. I thought that was so good. Like in order to love something, we have to find a way to delight in it. Kevin (46:20.77) Just gonna do that sermon 159. Kevin (46:45.067) And to love God would be to delight in God. Kevin (46:52.926) And if God is seen as a force of liberation and play, then that is much more conceivable than if you're dealing with a God who is punishing or vindictive or something like that, or judging. Daniel (46:53.105) Yeah, that's... Kevin (47:16.606) All right, well, this leads us to a special. Daniel (47:23.132) We do have a special announcement. We do. Daniel (47:30.912) We have been, Kevin and I have been talking offline for a number of months now, mainly about colonoscopies. Kevin (47:42.574) Thanks for watching! Daniel (47:44.5) but also, no, I made that up, but also about the direction of the podcast and the future of Board Game Faith and ways of expanding, enlarging the circle of this podcast and of the Board Game Faith community and our mission and our vision and where we're going. And... Kevin (47:47.19) Daniel just can't get enough of them. Daniel (48:14.08) Um, we're really excited to get to, to share that, share that with you, our dear listeners now, um, yeah, Kevin, any, any comments or thoughts on what's kind of from you and what's brought us to this point so up till now. Kevin (48:19.971) Mm-hmm. Kevin (48:29.99) Yeah, I think we both felt like we've done, we've so enjoyed this and we've created some really great thoughts and moments and things, but it might be reaching a point where it might be time to pivot a little or to think about the next stage or next step of what we've been doing. And that led us to think, well, how does this... Daniel (48:46.24) Mm-hmm. Kevin (48:56.002) How does this feel like a mission or how does this feel like a larger conversation? Daniel (49:04.16) And so, yeah, so over the next few months, not immediately, but over the next few months, you will see us transition as a podcast and as a community to something that is more broadly focused on this theme that we've been talking about really from day one, and we're still talking about it even today, which is... Kevin (49:04.17) And that led us to an idea. Daniel (49:33.372) the intersection of meaning and play, right? Like the importance of play for a meaningful life, for human flourishing, for what it means to be human. And really this has been a part of our conversation from the very beginning, as we've talked about, I think maybe from the very first episode, whenever you're talking about games, you're talking about play. Whenever we're talking about play, you're talking about games. They're just kind of two sides of the same coin. But play... It can take so many forms and are such an essential part of what it means to lead a meaningful human life. And so we're going to be changing the name of the podcast to... Do you want to share it, Kevin? Kevin (50:20.142) Play saves the world! Daniel (50:24.544) Play saves the world. I'm so excited about that. Play saves the world coming up in the next few months is going to be the new name of our podcast and website. And I'm so excited about the how it opens up doors to all sorts of new guests and books and topics. We're going to be we can be talking with a play researchers, people who I go deep into all sorts of other hobbies as well, besides just board games. I'm really talking about the role of play in human flourishing in what it means to be human in, in creating meaning in life. Kevin (51:07.702) Yeah, yeah, and it's still gonna be board game faith. Like, this is still where Daniel and I, I think, find our deepest joy in these conversations in terms of board games and spirituality. But opening that up a bit to see what it shows in the world, so that, yeah, so widening that a bit, but at the heart, that's probably what we'll always come back to. Daniel (51:12.573) It is. Kevin (51:36.942) Right, that's our kind of core center, but expanding that field of vision so that we can, yeah, think about how board games and spirituality might manifest in a larger human life. So it's not just about religious people playing board games at a table, even though it's kind of our favorite thing. Daniel (51:56.904) Yeah, yeah. Board games will always be a part of what we're talking about for sure. Kevin (52:03.926) Yeah, so play saves the world, greatest name ever. And it's a call to arms, my friends. Call to arm yourself with meeples and dice. We shall save the world. Rise, comrades, rise. Daniel (52:04.02) Speaking of which... Daniel (52:09.84) It is. Hehehehe Daniel (52:16.348) It reminds me of one of our early episode where we talked with Dave Bindewald, who is the director of the Center for Play and Imagination out in Pittsburgh. And he said one of his most common questions is, Dave, how can you talk about play in the face of all the suffering of the world? War and poverty and hunger. And he says all of that is so serious, he says. And I believe the answer is not to shy away from the language of play, but to double down on it all the more. He says because Kevin (52:22.391) Yeah. Daniel (52:45.396) when we are, because play is not about saying that all of those things are unimportant. Play is about saying that everyone has a right to be fully human and most human. And that is when we are in these restful states of grace and play and making sure that everybody on earth has that opportunity and that chance. Because that's when we're most who we were made to be. So, yeah, yeah. Kevin (53:08.128) Mm-hmm. Right, right. Excellent, well I'm so excited Daniel. So you all will see over the coming months we will change this podcast. The name will go to Play Saves the World. So anticipate if you're subscribed to a podcast player, you'll see some new art and new name, but it's gonna be us. And so yeah, just don't be surprised when that happens because it's just the next evolutionary stage of. Daniel (53:14.708) Yeah, me too. Daniel (53:35.612) Yep. And on internet, on Instagram, things like that. Now, oh, Kevin, does that mean are you going to have to legally change your name again? Kevin (53:43.99) Yes, it does. It does. It does. So I will be doing a special 30-hour marathon fundraiser to rescind the documents that have been filed for me to become board game faith. Mrs. Colonel. Colonel Mrs. Brigadier General. Lieutenant. Daniel (53:58.784) We're gonna have to stick. Yeah Daniel (54:07.803) I like that, we need to have titles. Yeah, that's good. You could be Colonel. Colonel play. Kevin (54:10.996) We should. Oh, we should! Oh, we've got to have to have random titles. A lieutenant. Daniel (54:17.944) Sounds good. I like it. I like it. Ha ha ha. Kevin (54:18.678) Rear Admiral, there's someone behind you. What? Where? Daniel (54:28.05) Well, you said board games will never be far from our heart, and that is especially true for our next episode, which is still going to be a board game faith episode. Kevin, what is our next episode going to be? Kevin (54:39.802) Our next episode is an interview with one of the two people really behind Garfield Games, or three people maybe? Two to three, 2.5 people? Sam McDonald, S.J. McDonald, a brilliant board game designer from New Zealand and making tons of great games, both... designing the Mishim Phillips and designing some on his own. And Sam has been a interim pastor and a church leader as well as a board game designer and musician. So he is gonna, I think that's gonna be really exciting. So that's gonna be great. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (55:18.088) Really looking forward to that. It's going to be wonderful. So that's coming up our next episode. In the meantime, you can find us on Instagram at boardgamefaith. You can reach out to us by email, boar We really love hearing from you. So please know, if you're just feeling a little nudge to reach out to us about anything and you're wondering whether you should or not, please do. We love hearing from our listeners. Again, boardgamefaith at gmail.com or info at boardgamefaith.com. Uh, that's also how you can request to sign up for our newsletter. We have a once month newsletter. Um, you can also find all of that in our link tree on our, uh, Instagram profile as well. Um, Oh, yes, yes. Kevin (56:05.282) or whisper into the ear of your carrier pigeon, Missouri, 29 alpha delta 3 go. Daniel (56:14.912) Go, go, just make sure to enunciate clearly between Marseille and Missouri. Kevin (56:17.408) And it. Kevin (56:22.158) And within a month or so we'll be reading your letter. So thank you for that. Thank you Daniel (56:26.088) We appreciate that. If you enjoy us, if you wouldn't mind considering, please maybe rating and reviewing us on whatever podcast platform you use, if you use a podcast platform, Apple podcast or Spotify, the more ratings and reviews a podcast gets, the more likely it is to recommend that podcast to other people. So we'd appreciate that so much. Thank you. And for our YouTube viewers, you're welcome to like and subscribe as well. We would appreciate that as well. Kevin (56:53.931) That's it. All right. See you in a couple weeks, everyone. Daniel (56:56.616) Well, board game faith, great hanging out with you. Kevin (57:01.026) Goodbye! Daniel (57:03.188) Thanks, everyone.