Daniel (00:04.785) To everything there is a season. You might recognize that line from the old Bird Song, which was composed by Pete Seeger, or you might know it from the third chapter of the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible, which inspired the song. The idea is that there are times in life for all sorts of things, a time to be born, a time to die, a time to plant, a time to reap. But are there seasons in the life? of a board gamer. And if so, what are they? And what can they teach us not just about games, but about ourselves and about faith? It's Stages of Gaming on this episode of Board Game Faith, a bi -weekly conversation exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Daniel (01:14.416) Hello and welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. It is great to have you joining us, tuning in, watching, whether on YouTube or on the podcast. Thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:29.23) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (01:31.793) And we are grateful that you are choosing to spend a little bit of your day with us today to talk about stages of gaming, stages of gaming. So Kevin, this topic kind of has grown out of conversations that you and I have had offline for a while now. I mean, it seems to be a topic that resonates with both of us. And I guess we were... thinking it might resonate with you too, our listeners, our viewers. Kevin, where did this, where did this topic come from for you? Or have you been, how have you been thinking about it? Kevin (02:10.735) Well, you know, I think it came about, you and I both realized that we are in a similar stage or season of being a board game hobbyist, that we're a little more choosy, we're a little less chasing the new. And I think we both were kind of relieved because that can be fun, but oppressive in a way to feel like you're... Need to know what the hotness is on board game geek or you're you're always wanting to keep up and now I think we're a bit more refined in What we're looking after I mean we I still want to buy new games. It's not that I've stopped but You almost reach a point where you're you've kind of seen a Lot of possibilities and maybe you know what you like or know where your interests are I don't know But I think it came about you and I seem to be in the same season Daniel (02:48.56) Yeah. Daniel (03:02.224) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (03:02.255) And that reminded me of this article that I'll link to that was in—it was in The Atlantic, I think? It was in a periodical where a therapist was discussing—there is a Christian -speak, Christian way of talking of, I'm in a season of X, like I'm in a season of grief, or I'm in a season of letting go, and it's a way that some Christian circles talk about their feelings, and— Daniel (03:09.169) Okay. Daniel (03:30.161) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Kevin (03:30.991) This person was saying it's a really useful way, whether you're Christian or not, to acknowledge how feelings are, but also acknowledge that they may change. I think what's the takeaway? Like the seasons, you know, winter is long and it's cold and it may bring up certain feelings or whatever, but before it was fall and after it or autumn and after it is spring. So things keep changing despite their intense feelings. Daniel (03:40.145) Oh, yeah. Kevin (03:57.999) And that's one way to think about feelings of sadness or happiness or grief or anxiety. That these things too shall pass. So we thought, yeah, there's some connection here with the seasons and stages of being a gaming hobbyist. And that's, yeah, I think that's where we got here. And we don't think anyone else has done it, so props. Daniel (04:15.825) I love - Yeah, yeah. Props to BGF. I love that. That's so good. That's so good. You're right, that language of seasons, like that article was talking about, really is so helpful. Sometimes that's the most hopeful thing that you can say to a person, or at least it's one of the most hopeful things I can try to hold on to when I'm going through a difficult time, is just to know that this feeling will not last forever. Kevin (04:27.151) I'm sorry. Daniel (04:51.761) This time will not last forever. Everything is a season, like good old Ecclesiastes tells us. Kevin (04:52.015) Yes. Kevin (04:56.431) Everything, yes. Yeah, it's so beautiful. And a lot of our feelings feel very entrapping, like it is very much tunnel vision, whether it's anxiety or grief or whatever, there's a feeling, depression, sadness, you feel like it'll never end. And that's part of what makes it so oppressive. And while that's a legitimate feeling and feelings aren't really wrong, Daniel (05:18.) Yeah, right, right. Kevin (05:24.43) It's not the whole truth, that people do get through grief, and eventually their sadness— they will have good memories instead of only sad memories. And it may take you a different time period, your path may be different, but there's a comfort knowing that the anxiety will pass, the fear will pass, yeah, there's a comfort to that, and that's found in Ecclesiastes. In my pastoral care class in seminary, I remember he— Daniel (05:35.025) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (05:54.286) professor even talked about the Psalms that way, like its way of naming and then restricting the feelings in a sense. I shouldn't say restrict, but just giving it a space but not letting it overwhelm everything. Yeah. Daniel (06:03.857) Mmm. Daniel (06:11.345) Seeing it in the larger context, right? Just like, yeah, not giving it the power to, of ultimately defining your reality. Right. Kevin (06:21.838) Yeah, if you're sad forever, that would be hell. I mean, that would be awful. We're not made for that. And it can feel like it will go on forever, and that's fine. When you're feeling that, that's fair. It does feel that way. But hopefully there's a little voice also saying, that's not really true. Like, you're not going to feel this way forever. Daniel (06:40.337) Yeah, yeah. Have you heard? Yeah, that's so helpful. Oh, the wisdom of the ancients. Ecclesiastes had it figured out. I don't know, they say that's like one of the oldest books in the Bible, right? It's just it's this ancient wisdom that's still supremely relevant, you know, all these years later. Kevin (06:48.75) Yeah, yeah. Ecclesiastes. Kevin (06:58.99) Yeah, and it's so interesting as a Jewish writing because it doesn't mention Torah or worship. You know, it's a really singular book, and the Bible is just so fascinating. It's such a collection of various genres and styles and thoughts. It is not a monochromatic work. Yeah, so Ecclesiastes is really an odd duck, which I love. Daniel (07:03.569) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Daniel (07:21.425) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you heard the the legendary maybe it's apocryphal, I don't know, story behind the phrase, this too shall pass. I I've heard this story and again, I mean, who knows whether it's historically accurate or not, but I love the story. Apparently, I think it was a a sultan, I believe, who who. Kevin (07:31.054) No. Kevin (07:50.222) Hopefully a sultan of swing. Daniel (07:52.177) It could be the Sultan of swing. Yeah, yeah. I want, that's my kind of, that's my kind of Sultan. Who asked a kind of the sage in their court for a gift that would give them wisdom in any situation in life, right? In the good and in the bad. That's equally applicable. Kevin (08:00.27) Sign me up. Daniel (08:17.137) in the good times of life, in the bad times of life, in the victories and in the lowest valleys. And this wise person, the sage, in response to that request made a ring. And on the inside of the ring was inscribed this phrase, this too shall pass. So that whether something really good was going on, the Sultan could remember this too shall pass. The good will pass. But also when something really bad was happening, the Sultan could remember this too shall pass too. Anyway. Kevin (08:46.062) I've never heard that. Daniel (08:46.385) That's a yeah, it's it's um, it's a great story by the way a sidebar within a sidebar there is a Musical artist that I've really come to like called J Lind L. Ind J Lind and his first name is it's just the letter J Anyway, he has a song about that legend called this to shall pass and it's it's a it's it's a nice little musical setting of it. So anyway, I The seasons of life. This too shall pass. So you had. Kevin (09:19.278) This too shall pass. Yeah. Daniel (09:29.553) mentioned, Kevin, this kind of journey that you have found that we're kind of both on, you know, kind of we're kind of getting this point in life in our relationship with games where you said maybe a little bit choosier and maybe not quite as much into getting the latest things. If I may ask, like in a nutshell, what's been your your gaming stages of life? Right. Like what's yeah. What does it look like for you, your seasons of life in relationship to games? Kevin (09:51.502) right. Kevin (09:56.174) But first, and I think this will resonate with many people, you're just so excited. I mean, that's just a highlight. And I would dream of games. Like, I would play a new game and then that night dream about the rules or playing that game. It was so just lighting up my synapses. I don't know if you've ever had that experience, but I was just so excited to play it again. I got so lost in it. And I remember it was Pandemic was the first game that... Daniel (10:06.545) Hmm. Daniel (10:14.769) Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (10:25.966) I really saw what a game could be in the recent decades, what they've become. I think I might have played Catan already at that point, and I liked it, but Catan is cool, but it's never stuck with me. I know it's been some people's, you know, mind blown game. We'll call it that, the game when you're like, oh my gosh, this is... Daniel (10:26.289) Yeah. Daniel (10:32.241) Yeah, yeah. Okay. Daniel (10:40.177) Yeah. Daniel (10:47.185) Right, right, right, yeah. Kevin (10:50.99) You know, I don't want to watch a movie. I don't want to do any other recreational activity. I want to play this game, that kind of game that lights you up. So playing Pandemic got me so excited. And then at some point, I guess through YouTube, I discovered Board Game Geek. And that's a big step too, when you start seeing how people rank games and you know where to go and learn about games as you invest in games and learn about mechanics and... Daniel (10:56.497) Bring on guitar, yeah. Daniel (11:07.217) you Kevin (11:17.23) I think many people get obsessed with the top 100 and picking out games there, maybe wanting to have all top 10 games or top 20 games type things. Daniel (11:26.065) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (11:27.822) So I think it progresses from that initial first love, like, oh my gosh, to then actively seeking out games and wanting certain games because, I don't know, I remember Mansions of Madness. I heard a lot about it and it seems so cool. It's almost like Clue with a app -driven, it might be my first app -driven game. Daniel (11:49.009) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (11:53.326) And just really wanting that because I knew I'd never played anything like that. So you start almost wanting to collect experiences of games. And so I guess that would be that's probably summer. If we want to go with the seasons theme. Spring is when you first wake up and you want to play games all the time. And summer is when you start getting on board Game Geek and. And. Things in full force, you're finding YouTube channels. Daniel (12:00.209) Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Daniel (12:08.465) Okay. Yeah. Daniel (12:17.745) Everything's in full force. Kevin (12:22.83) You're finding reviewers that you like, you're getting excited about games that are about to drop or have been announced. Yeah, I'll pause there. Do you, anything you want to riff on that there? Daniel (12:35.605) Yeah, well, I love how you had mentioned the really world -shifting moment it is to discover Board Game Geek. You had mentioned that before we got a lot to it. I love that idea, because you're right. So for our listeners who may not be kind of deeply into the board game hobby or just kind of more interested in it, yeah, Board Game Geek is this online resource that I don't think it's even fair to say arguably. Kevin (12:45.614) Ha ha ha. Daniel (13:05.269) The definitive website it is the definitive website for board game fans. Yeah, there's nothing that even comes close and And they they catalog in theory like every board game on earth And and every board game is ranked and Described and photographed and it's it is Yeah, yeah, and it's just it just opens up Kevin (13:07.886) It is. It is. Kevin (13:28.462) It'll list the mechanics that are involved. Yeah. Daniel (13:34.261) your universe, right? It just, it lets you know you're not, you're not the only one who thinks board games are really awesome. And, and people have been thinking about this for a long time. And, and not only that, but the people who've been thinking about it for a long time have also shared their feelings about what are the best games in the world. And, and then like, yeah, I want to play these best games in the world. And it's, it's such a great revelation of, of community. Kevin (13:40.494) Mm -hmm. Daniel (14:03.061) And also what board games can be, you know, and what kind of, and the quality of games. So yeah, that's really is a great, a great moment of revelation in the life of so many board gamers. Kevin (14:08.142) Mm -hmm. Kevin (14:19.822) Yeah, unfortunately board game geek also encourages a lot of reckless buying and spending because if you combine it with Amazon or some sort of delivery system that is a one -two punch and next thing you know you're spending a lot of money on board games that years before would have seemed ridiculous. Because now you can have a lot of things you can read about a game you can see it and it can be at your home in a couple of days. That's crazy town. Daniel (14:25.429) It does. Daniel (14:33.205) It is. Daniel (14:39.765) Yep, yep, yep, you're right. Daniel (14:47.989) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, oh, you know, yeah, for me, it was Christmas of 2016. So I'm going up on eight years here that I've been in the kind of been back in the hobby. Christmas of 2016, Kristen, my wife. Kevin (14:49.838) Crazy. What was your mind blown game? Did you have a mind blown experience that you recall? Daniel (15:17.621) For reasons, I think she was not even quite sure of why she did either. She got me for Christmas gift that year, Dominion, which is the classic deck building card game. Deck building is a mechanism of card games. It's a type of card game. And, oh, I just, yeah, that just kind of blew my mind. I started to play Dominion and I was like, well, this is so... Kevin (15:25.678) Mmm. Kevin (15:44.046) Mm -hmm. Daniel (15:46.613) board games have come such a long way since the last time I played them as a kid and I got thinking well what other really amazing board games are out there I've got to find out so let me go on the internet and oh on the YouTube's there's this there are thousands of videos about board games and then there's this board game this board game geek website that ranks board games and so yeah that kind of opened up the Kevin (16:08.142) Right. Daniel (16:15.861) the door, it was the portal to the board game universe. It was the stargate through which, through which we entered. So may I ask, did you play board games as a kid when you were growing up? Yeah. Kevin (16:24.142) That's perfect! Borgate SG5 Season 8. Kevin (16:32.91) I did, I did. I had a very good friend growing up, Dave, and we would play Trivial Pursuit, the original one, but it was so difficult because it's from the 60s. So we got to where we knew some of the answers, but we knew nothing about it. So the one book they always talked about was Future Shocks. And it's a book that no one cares about, but it came up in a bunch of the questions. Because as we know, all trivia questions are kind of snapshots of times and places. Daniel (16:51.477) Yes. Daniel (16:55.637) Right, right. Daniel (17:00.597) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (17:01.39) So we would just, it became a joke. It's like future shocks. And sometimes you were right, but we had to learn this random memorabilia. Cause that was before they had updated versions. Originally it was just, there was this and we knew nothing about sports. So yeah. So you would go around and collect the different bits and we would play that. We played some Monopoly and I was at a summer camp in high school and we played a lot of risk and. Daniel (17:11.157) Right. I didn't know that. Okay. Kevin (17:28.718) Some people had house rules so we could do like satellites and nuclear bombs and stuff. It was kind of fun. But it was always more of a thing to do with friends. It was not an intense thing, but I did grow up playing games. Yeah, how about you? What did you play? Daniel (17:33.973) Okay, okay, neat. Daniel (17:45.301) Yeah, same way. Yeah, I grew up playing and loving board games. Some of the ones I remember most from my childhood is Bonkers, a board game called Bonkers, a board game called Superstition, which was like one of those three -dimensional games where you like go up steps with your little figure, like 3D steps up to the next level. Mouse Trap. Kevin (18:09.358) Hmm. Daniel (18:13.653) Mouse trap was magical, right? Where you would build this elaborate contraption on the board that would trap the mice. I remember playing Garfield, the Garfield board game, payday board game. And I just remember just a little bit of Monopoly. Yeah, some Monopoly too. Never made it to the end of a game, but I don't think anyone's ever made it to the end of a game Monopoly, at least that I've met. And yeah, some Monopoly and it just... Kevin (18:29.966) Monopoly? Yeah. Right, right. Daniel (18:43.829) But I just had, you know, there were feelings that I didn't even realize were there that almost kind of felt magical about those experiences, right? Like you open up this box and in a way you are almost kind of opening a box to another world, you know, just this, this. And I had, I was unaware of those feelings and had, and or had forgotten those feelings until... Kevin (18:55.726) Hmm. Daniel (19:11.317) getting back that Christmas of 2016 when I opened up this Dominion box and started to play it. And it just all kind of came back these, almost just kind of these, it's like, oh yeah, I forgot how magical board games are. Why have I wasted my life not playing board games since I was a child? Yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't. Kevin (19:28.622) Right, right. Do you know how Kristen heard about Dominion? You should ask her. Yeah, whether she read it or someone played it or... Daniel (19:37.749) Yeah, it's a great question. I really don't know how she heard that. I should ask her about that. I know she said she doesn't really know why she got it for me, but I wonder why she even, how she heard of it in the first place. Yeah. Do you remember how you heard of pandemic? Kevin (19:50.19) Yeah, because that's a good pick. That's a... Some friends invited us over to play for a game night and that's what they wanted to play and I was like, whoa. And I had played, I really liked Dominion. Someone gave us a copy, but I think it might've been after we played Pandemic. I'm not sure. Or maybe before, but Pandemic was just so cool. Probably because it was so different, because you're playing against the board and participatory and Dominion's great. I'm terrible at it. Daniel (19:56.757) Okay, okay, okay, okay. Daniel (20:05.845) Mmm. Daniel (20:10.165) Okay, okay. Daniel (20:15.093) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (20:20.309) Yeah. Kevin (20:22.446) It's definitely a game where you have to time it well when you switch from acquiring power upgrades to the victory points. And it's the kind of thing that I'm always, I don't know, I can't ever time it right. I'm always like, well, I have 20 mining copper things that are worth nothing, right? So, but Dominion's great because it feels like such a sandbox. Like there's so many different ways to go about it. How do you? Daniel (20:23.381) Oh me too. Daniel (20:27.317) Yeah. Daniel (20:30.709) Yep. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (20:44.981) Yeah, I'm with you, yeah. Daniel (20:50.645) Yes. Yeah, yeah. We ended up buying all sorts of expansions for it. And, you know, and for every expansion you get like one... It's hard to explain it if for folks who haven't played the game, but each expansion involved different sets of cards that you can buy to add to your deck. And, but you only can have like, I think something like 10 sets that are out on the board at any one time. Kevin (20:51.022) Optimize your hand. Yeah Kevin (20:56.43) Oh. Daniel (21:18.805) But at some point eventually we probably have like 50 different individual types of cards, sets of cards that... and you only put out 10 at a time. And so each set, each type of card comes with like a one card and you put those one cards in a deck, you shuffle them and then you just randomly draw out 10 and then those 10 are the 10 sets you put out for the game. And so every game is totally different. You don't know what kind of powers you're going to have the option to buy this game. and how they might synergize or not synergize together. Synergize being a highfalutin word for just working together. I regret using the word synergize. I feel pretentious. Kevin (22:01.262) That's a Duke Divinity School education right there. Yeah, Dominion is cool as well as you can't attack each other directly. It's almost like a weird solo play, but you are playing with other people type thing. Daniel (22:02.933) Hahaha Oh. Daniel (22:11.573) Yeah. Daniel (22:16.917) Yeah, there is a little bit of a, there's some minor attacks, but they're very, very, very minor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can easily defend them if you have the right kind of card. So yeah. Kevin (22:24.078) Mm -hmm. Kevin (22:28.558) We also played Talisman, somehow I forget how I discovered that. And that's it. We had a lot of fun playing that. It's a very broken game in my opinion, because yeah, it's like a D and D thing and you go around and you have to progress into this inner, there's like three rings basically. And so there's one way you have to, you can go to the bridge and fight the guardian, but you can also like go to the tavern and try to get a boat. Daniel (22:31.925) Uh oh. Daniel (22:36.245) I've never played that. Daniel (22:45.141) Yeah. Kevin (22:54.286) through dice and so there's a lot of dice rolling and there's a lot of ways as you get to the inner and come to the final battle, you can get kicked out to an outer ring. So we would play and it could be fun but other times you would be close to winning and then all of a sudden get expelled out to the middle ring and get stuck. And you're kind of just wandering around and you're like, what is going on? So it's kind of a goofy game but it was one that appealed to us with having young boys and it was kind of cool. Daniel (22:54.357) Hmm. Daniel (23:03.829) Oh. Daniel (23:12.117) Oh no. Oh, that sounds frustrating. Daniel (23:21.813) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (23:23.374) Oh, and there's something where you can there's magic in the game with spells and people can get turned into toads. And that was kind of hilarious with young boys. So your player character, you get a toad instead. You've been like Shrek or something. Basically, you still play as a toad and there's a way you can get untoaded. But it is kind of hilarious to get turned into a toad and you get different like you can only move one space at a time and you have different cards. This is memory. I may be getting some things wrong here, but it was kind of. Daniel (23:30.709) Ha ha ha ha. Really? Can you still play as a toad? Okay. Kevin (23:53.326) funny to cause that to happen. Daniel (23:56.021) Untoted is a great word. Kevin (23:57.358) Yes, I'm a powerful sword magician Conan the Barbarian unless you make me a toad. I have nothing. There's no anti -toad spell. Daniel (24:08.981) So there was this initial summer of like, I mean summer as a season, not literally a summer, but where you're like, I must get all the games and get, but then you talked about at the beginning of the episode, you're just kind of more in this time of life now where like, you know, I want to be a little bit more selective, more, what's gone, I don't have to get all the games. What's gone into that? What is that transition? Kevin (24:16.814) Sure. Daniel (24:38.005) What has led to that? Kevin (24:38.062) For me, yeah, if we're in autumnal fall, if we're in that season, I think it's kind of being aware that you're spending more than you want on games, or you have a lot of games that you would like to play again but you don't have time, or maybe you bought a game that you regretted and you start to realize, yeah, this is, you know, going on Board Game Geek and the hotness and YouTube and some of the YouTubers are... Daniel (24:56.181) Yeah. Mm -hmm. Kevin (25:07.79) or maybe being given free copies or are being paid as paid material and you kind of realize this is also a business. And that's fine. Like it's a business that provides a wonderful service, but it does manipulate you into the fear of missing out, feeling like you need to back something. In fact, I just got seventh Citadel the other day. I backed that thing like three years ago. And this is, and part of it, whenever it was live, the backing and at this point, Daniel (25:09.909) Mm -hmm. Right, right. Daniel (25:16.437) Yeah, yeah. Right, absolutely. Absolutely. Daniel (25:29.237) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (25:38.254) I'm not that excited and no offense to it. I think it's supposed to be a great game and it's the seventh continent and I really got into that game for a while and then I backed seventh Citadel but by the time it came around now I don't know. What I like is going to the board game store probably because of memories of as a kid going to the comic book store and picking out the comic books based on the cover. Comic book store. Daniel (25:41.109) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (25:53.653) Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. Daniel (26:02.741) Yeah. Oh, the comic book store. Yes, yes. I love that. Kevin (26:07.15) And it too gets got serious where you end up having subscriptions like you can have a little bag and you know and reserve it. But the best was going in and buying a random comic because you love the cover and then going home and enjoying it so much. And I want to replicate that. So I love going in the board game store and seeing they have a game that I've really wanted to get. And then I buy it. That's the serendipitous, you know, dopamine hit. Daniel (26:11.957) Yep. Daniel (26:22.581) Yeah. Yes. Daniel (26:34.613) Yes. Kevin (26:36.59) versus Amazon or even Kickstarter where you're like, eh, you know, that's what I want. And I mean, I ended up doing the Kickstarter on Hedge Jiminy because I don't, it's such a well -loved game. I don't know if you've seen much about it. Yeah. And I just say that to say it's not like I've completely gone puritanical and only go to the friendly local game store, but. Daniel (26:41.813) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (26:49.109) Hegemony, yeah. Daniel (26:54.869) I've heard of it. I don't know much about it, but yeah, yeah. Daniel (27:05.269) Sure, sure. Kevin (27:06.19) But that's the experience I want. I guess I've been burned enough. I've been in the fall period of feeling regret and wondering when am I ever going to play all these things? It's taking up too much space. But now I'm in the winter of my contentment. Instead of winter of our discontent. Yeah, exactly. So I'm trying to find contentment in winter, which is, yeah, I want to huddle around the fire. Daniel (27:18.517) Yeah. Daniel (27:23.157) Your contentment. That's so much better than the winter of discontent. I like it. Kevin (27:34.094) and play games that I really like, or there are some games I just like knowing I own because they bring me good memories. So that Marie Kondo sparking type. Daniel (27:41.525) Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're cozy. They're comfortable. Yeah. Kevin (27:47.054) They're cozy, but if I feel like, oh, I wish I had more time, if I feel guilt or dislike for a game, I've gotten better at getting rid of them. Either giving them to someone, or our local game store has a resell consignment section, which is really cool. So I've put some things there that I'm like, you know, I'm never going to play this again, or I didn't like it as much as I thought, or I think I'm done, or whatever. And that is a great feeling, I gotta tell you. Daniel (28:02.805) Yeah. Daniel (28:07.861) That's good. Daniel (28:16.853) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (28:17.422) paring it down. Like I've got Gloomhaven and Frosthaven. I'm never gonna play Gloomhaven again. Like why would you play the one, it's a great game, but why not get it in someone else's hands? What about you? What is your fall and winter like? Daniel (28:22.549) Right. Right. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, and I try to think what is kind of caused that transition for me, too. I think part of it is exactly what you've been saying, too. You know that. Like you said, I buy games that I regret later on. You know, it's like I hear a lot of neat things about it for whatever reason, and I buy it and it's like, oh, this isn't this isn't for me, right? For whatever reason. And so that maybe makes it a little cheesy, but also I think also it's a large part of it's what you're talking about, just realizing that I'm not going to play all of these things, right? That I just have so many games. And frankly, by this point, Chris and I talk about this. because of this process that you've talked about, getting rid of the games we don't like over the years, you know, selling them back to the store or giving them away or, you know, whatever. It's kind of the point that the games that are left in the collection are all games we really like a lot or almost all of them. There are few exceptions. And I realized that I already have I could play just the games we already have indefinitely and I'd be really happy. They're really good games. You know, we're just I'm so we love these games and. And so that's part of it. I already have more games that we really like that I'm going to have time to play. But the other thing is probably time. Just at this stage, there's a season where it doesn't feel like a lot of time to play games or people to play games. And also... Daniel (30:12.821) And this is no judgment at all. It's just kind of the reality. Just a lot of the folks with whom I play the games the most just tend to like the lighter games and the quicker games. And so that kind of moves it in that direction as well. I'm not buying a lot of the heavier games because I just know there would be less opportunity to get those to the table, right? You know that... Kevin (30:31.918) Mm -hmm. Daniel (30:41.429) And that's okay. You know, a lot of the lighter, quicker games, there are a lot of really good lighter and quicker games too, you know, and like Scout, we've talked about Scout, you know, it's such a good, such a good, and we just got, that's not a hat. I know what you love. That's a great game too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so hard, but it's so, yes, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (30:47.566) Right. Kevin (30:51.118) Mm -hmm. Kevin (30:57.006) Have you tried it yet? It's so hilarious to watch somebody go, it's so hard. And people get ashamed there because I guess they get self -conscious about not being able to remember. And I always have to say, like, if you could remember, there would be no game. This whole game is based on the fact that you will forget. You know, like, where is the birthday cake? I mean, it's just, yeah, it's such a great little game. Daniel (31:13.909) Exactly. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yeah, it really is. That's what makes it just fantastic. I think I mentioned before on this podcast, but if sidebar, if you really like that kind of game, another game that we adore is that has a similar vibe is called in English, it's Spooky Stairs. But in German, it's Geister Trappa with the with the Ghost Bottle expansion. But it's a German kids game made by, I know, I know. It's a German kids game, but it is just like that. It's like, that's not a hat. In that all you have to do to win the game is remember something, right? And in the case of Spooky Stairs, it's to remember what your piece is on the board. And you think that would be the easiest thing in the world. And just like, that's not a hat. You'd think that just remembering, Kevin (31:47.534) Nerd. Okay. Daniel (32:15.157) your card would be the easiest thing in the world, but it's not! That's what makes it so fun! Right, right, right, yeah. So yeah, I think same reason, you know, just and, and I think, but also I don't want to put it off on just others as well. I'm finding for whatever reason that I just don't want to spend a lot of time in setting up and taking down a game too. Kevin (32:19.79) Not with these brains, baby. No, not with this wiring. Uh -uh. Daniel (32:43.157) You know what I mean? I just want to get right into the game. So maybe there's some change in me as well. Kevin (32:45.934) Huh, huh. Kevin (32:51.598) Yeah, you know, and for me, I don't mind the setting up and putting putting away. It might be a little OCD pleasure for me. I don't know. I enjoy kind of that. What I've grown to dislike is knowing I have a massive rule set to learn and I know I can do it and I'll figure it out, but it's just not as much fun as it used to be. It feels a bit more of a slog. I want I want a good teacher to teach me. Daniel (32:59.957) Yeah, I understand. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (33:13.685) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (33:18.638) And maybe it's partly having gone to a few conventions where there are people demoing, but I really appreciate that. I don't look forward to the six hour learning session that I used to. So that's where it's a season. I used to really enjoy that. And I don't anymore. Like you're saying, you don't enjoy the set up and tear down. There are things you start, you just simply change. And that's totally fine. Like the important thing is knowing who you are and where you are. Daniel (33:18.837) Yeah. Daniel (33:40.117) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Kevin (33:44.494) But also love what you said about knowing your group. If you have a gaming group community, you gotta love the one you're with. And so if they're not into certain things or the end of certain things that you know of, or you want to try something, that's great. But yeah, you have to kind of know the group you're with. And then you have the decision of, do you try to find a new group, create something, or do you just play solo? And I'm in the weird situation that I thought I liked playing solo games, but I'm realizing I really don't. Daniel (33:50.677) Mm -hmm. Daniel (34:08.213) Right, right. Kevin (34:13.006) I think I get kind of grumpy with them. I'm not sure. Daniel (34:13.397) Mmm. What is it that makes you grumpy about him? Kevin (34:18.67) I don't know. That's a great question. I think because I enjoy the social aspect so much and because I'm not sure I'm that good a gamer. Some games I'm good at, but I end up just getting frustrated with myself that I don't do better. So I'm probably too hard on myself, but the pleasures, I'm not getting the pleasure of getting a high score. I'm getting the pleasure of maybe learning a new game or an experience, but it's not fun. Daniel (34:24.501) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (34:46.702) Maybe if I kept at it, it'd be more fun. Or if I was more of an introvert, it'd be more fun. But I really just want things to get goofy. You know, I want to play root and somebody blows up an entire clearing or something, right? That's what I want. Daniel (35:00.501) Yeah, yeah, yeah. The score maximization aspect of a game isn't your highest joy in a game. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (35:10.222) No, but I love a good Euro game and I do like I like learning the system and I like playing with other people and I'm probably going to lose. That's OK, because it's still interesting to see and I'm probably will do OK, but at least I'm getting to interact and watch versus that solo experience. I don't know. How about you? What is your relationship to solo gaming? Daniel (35:16.501) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (35:27.157) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (35:35.221) Yeah, I started off thinking that I didn't like them at all. But I've kind of come around to them more and more. I. Daniel (35:50.101) But I only basically do solo games that are now almost exclusively just very simple games, very simple solo games, like the card layering games that like Button Shy makes or things like that. I think I just kind of find them almost kind of like meditative, you know, at the end of the day, I'll put some quiet music on in the background and just, you know, just do these very simple meditative solo games. And I just find it very peaceful. Yeah. Kevin (36:07.278) Yes. Kevin (36:18.254) It's almost a different experience when you're that, you know a game that well, it's almost like, yeah, it's almost like a different category. Hadrian's Wall is that one for me. I know it so well and I really enjoy it and love it and I'm still not great at it. I like to see my score and I sometimes do better than others, but I just enjoy the process. It's a very relaxing setup. Daniel (36:20.373) Yeah. Daniel (36:25.685) You're right, it is it. Yeah. Daniel (36:31.285) Hmm. Daniel (36:41.269) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love that, yeah. Kevin (36:46.702) I've played through almost that whole deck of papers. So much I've played it. So it is meditative, yeah. Daniel (36:54.741) I think as we've talked before kind of on this podcast, you know, that, well, it's an idea we've talked a lot about, but just this idea that, you know, The point of a game is to win, but the point of the game isn't really to win, you know, just kind of that it's that, that, yeah, yeah. Um, so I was wondering if it's okay with you, Kevin, you know, this is, we've talked about kind of the seasons of gaming, um, in gaming life. And this is also, um, a podcast about faith, of course, and spirituality and boring. So it got me thinking about, um, um, kind of seasons of faith, kind of stages of faith. Kevin (37:20.686) Mm -hmm. Daniel (37:35.733) And if it's all right with you, it might be kind of fun. I might just kind of, if I just kind of talk through briefly this one person's thoughts on stages of faith and think about whether that may or may not relate to have parallels to our, our seasons of life for a gamer. Does that sound like something to give a try? Okay. Okay. Well, thanks. So, uh, so this is based on the work of a psychologist and a theologian here in the United States. He passed away. Kevin (37:53.998) This is really cool. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, let's give it a try. Daniel (38:06.133) Um, about within the last 10 years named James Fowler. James Fowler was American psychologist and theologian. And he's most famous for this idea of stages of faith. And, and I think, you know, there are some critiques of the gate of this framework for, for faith. And, um, it, some people can see it kind of, especially as like hierarchical or sequential and kind of seeing like, and some people can feel like what's saying, like, you know, this, this person's approach to faith is. is better or more advanced than another person's approach to faith. And that's not necessarily the point of why we're trying to present it here or why I'm trying to present it. So if you don't like to think of it as kind of sequential, maybe you could just think of it as like just different approaches to faith, maybe more of a circle if you want to think of it as that way. But he talks about different stages of faith. And I'll just kind of briefly go through it and then maybe we can think about how it applies to also stages of gaming. These are my own words. for the stages of faith, there are six of them. Well, they're my own words plus a little help from chat GBT too. So I should give some credit to our AI overlords as well. Yeah, yeah. BGF is brought to you by chat GBT. No, not really, just only a part. But the first is kind of this trusting, it's kind of a trusting stage of faith. So basically, Kevin (39:17.486) Thank you. We love you. Right, Chief. Daniel (39:34.805) If faith is about you trusting what other people tell you it's about, right? And someone says, some authority figure says, this is what faith is about. And you trust them and you say, yes, this is what faith is about. Then the next stage is you really dig into the details and you kind of revel in the details of the faith. And I kind of call this kind of the zealous level of approach to faith. But this is like when you learn in the Christians... And you learn about David and Goliath and, you know, and Noah and the ark. And you really kind of get into all the minutia of the stories and the trappings of the faith. And, and, and you, Kevin (40:18.798) Yeah, you connect a lot of events. You're like, oh, this is just like in the Bible. You're always connecting everything to Bible stories or Christian teachings, yeah. Daniel (40:22.965) Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so you get very, at least to me, it seems like it can be kind of a very zealous approach to that. And they become very world defining and often kind of a sense of very defensive too. Like I'm going to defend these stories, right? Then there's kind of what I call maybe kind of a sectarian or group approach to faith, which is you... become very aware of this defines my peeps, right? This defines my group. And this is all about what makes my group and me unique, right? And this is what sets apart us and them. It's kind of an us and them kind of moment in faith. Then he talks about kind of a more personal approach to faith, where you begin to start to think about things for yourself and you say, you know what? this works for me or this doesn't work for me, this makes sense to me, this doesn't make sense to me. And you kind of come to own it. Then after that, a more kind of connecting approach to faith where you begin to see that this faith you've come to own, how it connects to other things in the world, what you have in common, maybe. Your faith doesn't exist in a vacuum, though you still hold on to that faith as kind of the preeminent thing. And then lastly, he talks about what I use, maybe kind of a holistic kind of approach to faith, that you see your faith as kind of a larger whole. And others approach faith as well in different ways. And my approach is part of a larger whole to faith. So I'll pause there. Any initial reflections on that, Kevin? Is this... Kevin (42:19.598) Genius, that's what I reflect. Genius. Daniel (42:22.165) Do you like does that make does that resonate with you? Jane Fowler's stages of faith? Yeah, yeah Kevin (42:24.91) Absolutely. No. Yeah. The stages and faith and stages of gaming that you there is a kind of a zeal where you're always looking for people to play games. And I still will carry games to places because it's kind of like having a fishing pole for people that fish like you never know when you have time or doesn't hurt to grab a copy of a game if you think and throw it in the car or where your bag if you think the moment might arise because that that can be great. Daniel (42:52.213) Yeah. Kevin (42:52.974) But I'm definitely not like I was, where I was always demanding and looking for gaming opportunities. You kind of see gaming as part of your larger life and the joy it brings, but it's not what it was earlier, where you're kind of obsessed. So you and I both are saying we're not on board Game Geek as much as we used to be. Daniel (43:09.205) Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, yes. It used to be a part of my nightly ritual, literally, that I would get on my iPad and look at the hotness for the day to see what the 50 hottest games were for that day, to see if there's anything new on that list. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (43:14.67) You know, that's... Wow. Kevin (43:23.182) Right. Yeah, and I still watch their certain YouTube channels I really enjoy or finding new reviewer and things. But yeah, it's and and there's one I found recently called Board and Savior. What if you found this? But but he's had some really interesting ones where he's talked about games that he's regretted. He's sort of, you know, are games that he likes or he has and he's has some funny skits to to some of it. Daniel (43:40.661) I've heard of that, yeah. Yeah, I've heard of it. Daniel (43:47.413) Hmm. Daniel (43:54.901) Yeah. Kevin (43:55.63) But I appreciate how I'm gravitating to YouTubers that bring in their emotional state to their critiques, if that makes sense. So the work of... Daniel (44:05.589) Mm. Mm. Mm. It's... Kevin (44:12.718) shut up and sit down and quens, you know, like he's shifted and I enjoy people talking about that shift. And I enjoy people saying, yeah, it's about their regrets or their excitements or their joys or they're almost talking what we're saying today of seasons and stages. Daniel (44:15.221) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (44:20.469) It's not just about the games. Yeah. Hmm. Daniel (44:32.309) I like that, I like that, yeah. Kevin (44:34.222) They're kind of self -aware. So I think the goal is being self -aware. But yeah, this is, I think it's tremendous. And you do make it your own. You know what kind of gamer you are. And then you connect how these things relate to who you are and the kind of pleasures that you pursue in terms of what games really bring you joy and what don't. Daniel (44:54.389) Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (44:57.326) And also it brings other people joy, because making people play games that they don't want to play is not fun. Daniel (45:05.269) No, it's ultimately so much more about me than anything else. You know, it's not about. Kevin (45:10.222) Right. But now surprising them is great. Like you can say, let's just try this and then like, that's cool. You know, there is a middle ground there, but no, this is so wise. Daniel (45:16.597) Yes, yes, yes. I love that feeling of when I love that feeling of introducing a game to a group of especially folks who are not hobby board gamers. And then at the end of the game, they pull out their phone to see if they can order it. I love that. It's kind of that evangelicalism. You're an evangelist for the board game. But yeah, I. Kevin (45:35.694) Yes. Yes. Yes. Daniel (45:48.309) And I have to say, Kevin, I mean, as props to you and kudos to you and to this conversation, I feel like in terms of my experience with gaming, I do feel like it's maybe kind of at a point where it's more about kind of that connecting point where it's just about, or that holistic thing where it's more just kind of a bit more about how does this... How do games relate? Like you were saying, the reviewers you especially like, how do they relate to the rest of life? You know, how are they, how do they relate to the emotional realities that we bring to them? And even just how do they relate to life in general, you know, which it gets to the topics of play, whether independent games. And, you know, Kevin, I'm pretty sure I would not have, I would not be in that mindset without you and without this conversation that, and without our listeners and our viewers who have over these last couple of years, who've talked about. Kevin (46:24.366) Right? Kevin (46:42.478) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (46:46.069) These things we're talking about on board Game of Faith, you know, that it's part of a larger whole. You know, it's not just the details of the game mechanisms. It's about what is the role of games in life and in faith and in what all of this stuff is about. Kevin (46:47.822) Just thinking about it, yeah. Kevin (47:04.878) Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'll never stop playing games. I love it's still a highlight and I love it. And I also love having a games library that my kid can say, hey, can I take sides and pandemic to school? And I'm like, yeah, of course. Go have great time. Take care of it. You know, be responsible. Daniel (47:21.205) Yeah. Kevin (47:25.87) But yeah, having a games library and loving games and checking out what's new and interesting. I still want to get Heat. I definitely want to get Zu Vadis, which I got to play at a convention. So there's games I want. It's just not quite the sort of, oh my gosh, I have to buy a game today type feeling, which we've all had, yeah, or just the excitement of opening games. Daniel (47:40.117) Yes, yes, yes. Daniel (47:48.981) Right, right, right. Kevin (47:53.422) I also, there's certain designers I've come to appreciate. And so Garfield games, I'll always get their games just because I am always curious to see what they're doing. And I always want to know what, but shoot, the Mage Knight guy. Daniel (47:59.669) Yeah. Kevin (48:11.954) Chevatel, yeah, I would always buy something he does and the other one is Adam Kupinski and and those are just random people that really appeal to me and that maybe that's part of what we're saying is you connect with certain designers and I'm only now starting to connect with Reiner Knitze I know he's so famous but I've gotten to play a few of his games and I'm like I see why people talk about him so there's certain ones, you know that attract me for whatever reason and Daniel (48:11.989) Chavadal. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (48:22.549) Need. Daniel (48:26.357) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (48:31.093) him. Daniel (48:35.029) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (48:41.393) And yeah, those are the people that want to play their games mostly because I like their mind palace. And same way with comic books. That's why I got a picture Alan Moore behind me. You know, I really like Alan Moore and I'll always buy Alan Moore stuff, but I'm not as much into buying just comic books for the just the sake. It's more about the person. Yeah. And I've also learned, as we've said, that expansions are kind of usually awful. Let's just be honest, like. Daniel (48:46.645) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (48:53.877) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (48:57.781) Right, it's more about the person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Daniel (49:07.669) You Kevin (49:09.297) And as you've quoted someone like when you buy an expansion, you basically are never gonna play the game again. And it's so true. And so, so many games. Daniel (49:15.573) Suzanne Sheldon said that, yes, over on the Sultan Sass podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (49:20.017) Yeah, so many games. It's just rare that I play a game that much that I really am longing for an expansion. So I'm glad they're out there and some of them are great. But most of them, you know, Root, just play Root, just play original Root. Don't get the expand. There's so many expansions and they're fine. They're fine. But they're just going to confuse the setup and they're going to keep you from buying other great games. So buy. Cole Worley is another guy. I will always buy a Cole Worley game. Always. Whatever he's doing. But I don't want an expansion. Yeah. Daniel (49:28.405) Yeah. Daniel (49:34.165) Yeah. Daniel (49:45.365) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (49:49.941) Elijah and Kristen and I played Fantasy Realms last night, which is a favorite, especially of Elijah's. It's a great quick card game. But as we were breaking it out, Elijah said, hey, could we please not play with the expansion? And I said, and my response to him was, I've already taken it out. I've decided not to play with it anymore either. Yeah, that's such a. Kevin (50:06.641) Yeah, yeah, yeah. The expansion, I mean again, they're kind of cool and there are probably unique groups that really benefit from them, but most of them are based on your deep love of the original game and you love it so much that you think the expansion will make it even better and it rarely does. I mean, again, I'm qualifying that. I'm not saying they're all bad, but in general, yeah, I'm really soured on expansions. Daniel (50:27.893) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (50:36.245) Before we wrap it up, I know we're approaching the time, the stages, seasons, both of faith and of gaming, raises a question for me. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on, if you don't mind. But you know, there seems to be, I've had experiences when you're in that season where you're especially in the details of whatever it is that you're in the details of. Whether it's gaming or faith, maybe, but you know, you're deep into... into the details and the minutiae and the thing that, I remember thinking this, that I would look at someone who was not in the details and I would kind of like look down on them. You know what I mean? And I would be like, kind of like, I'd be kind of like, oh, I hope, you know, I'll never be like that. You know, like, I'll never, I'll, because they've lost, they've lost, they've lost the fireman. Kevin (51:19.953) Mm -hmm. Daniel (51:35.221) They've lost the fire, you know, they're not. And then I get to. A point of my life where I am that person that I said I would never want to be like, um, and, and it just, and I, it puts that in such a different perspective, that earlier stage of my life where I was like, I hope I never become that person that I become. Do you have experiences like that and whatever, whatever it is you're talking about, does that resonate at all with you or not? And I don't know what to do with it. Kevin (51:42.705) Yes, yes, yes. Kevin (51:57.489) Mm -hmm. Kevin (52:03.665) Little bit. I don't I don't know if it's that I don't want to become it. It's more that I look at them as aliens. You're like, how are you? How did you move to this point? Like, that is so weird. How are you at this stage of life or gaming or faith? And then eventually you're like, OK, now I get, you know, given enough time and yeah, there's nothing new under the sun. Like you start to another Ecclesiastes line. You yeah, you become that person. Daniel (52:11.029) Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Daniel (52:22.069) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (52:30.485) Yeah, yeah. It's almost, yeah, you're right, there's a part of that journey, that process, I should say, part of that process that you're right, that just appears alien. Daniel (52:47.733) to another stop along the process. And I'm not trying to say that. Yeah. Kevin (52:50.161) Mm -hmm to the zealous person the holistic stage would be like but you've lost it. You don't get it man, or You know, how could you do that? But but that's just that's just growth Daniel (52:58.069) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (53:04.277) Yeah, yeah. Well. Kevin (53:08.049) Good stuff, good stuff. And I'm glad that we're not jaded. Some people do get jaded and I don't think we're not. And maybe that will be us at some point, but I don't think so. I still enjoy it far too much. Daniel (53:09.973) Yeah, I. Daniel (53:21.717) Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I think as we've talked about throughout this Board Game Faith conversation the last two years, regardless of what form it takes, right, you know, whether it's board games or playing hopscotch or, you know, as I know, is a personal favorite for you and me, Kevin Rugby, whatever form it takes. Kevin (53:46.353) Right? Full on. Naked even. Naked rugby. Naked. Daniel (53:50.581) Mixed martial arts. Yeah, yeah, like, you know, as we, you know, the, the, nothing wrong, I guess, but it's just, it's just not our thing. The, it, all of that is part of this larger reality, I think, that will always be true, which is that, which is what really this podcast is about, which is that. the role of play in games, games as an expression of play in the larger human experience and the larger reality of... of who we were made to be as human beings, right? And what is true about the human soul. Kevin (54:30.897) Mm -hmm. Daniel (54:37.845) And so yeah, maybe it's board games, maybe it's not, but I hope I never get jaded about that. Kevin (54:37.873) Yeah. Kevin (54:42.801) No, no, I think it's too ingrained in both of us. The spirit of play. Yeah. Daniel (54:46.069) Yeah. Yeah. You know something else I never BJ'd about? Thinking that Kevin Taylor is awesome. And that I'm grateful for another episode of Get To Talk About This Stuff with you. Thank you so much. This was great. Kevin (54:51.633) What's that? day Kevin (55:02.545) Yes, thanks to all of our listeners and remember we do have a newsletter a monthly newsletter And if we'd love to hear from you subscribe to that at boardgamefaith .com you can find a link there and of course we are on instagram and Like and subscribe, etc, etc Smash my bail smash my bail Sort of doing a wild wild west there Daniel (55:14.869) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (55:22.773) Yep, you can email us too. Board game faith. Oh, what was it? Kevin (55:30.001) I'm just making the chili out here, smash my bell when you're hungry. I have a chili con carne for my little cowboys. Daniel (55:41.525) We should make a, we should make a Borgian Faith chili and, and, uh, and sell it. And, oh, oh, and the kidney beans would be in the shape of meeples. That would, it would, it would be very hard because we would have to spend hours with a little knife carving every bean into the shape of a meeple, but it would be worth it because, uh, because meeeple. Kevin (55:44.305) We should. Kevin (55:50.545) I mean, how hard is it? Is it? Oh. Kevin (56:04.529) Maybe if you plant the right meeples, they will cross -breed with bean plants, and then they'll just turn into that shape naturally, through natural selection. You think, that's Darwin. It's Darwin, baby. Daniel (56:10.549) I think that's how it works, yeah. I think that's how it works. Yeah. I think you have a full, we have a full grasp of the evolutionary process here. I love it. That's, there's no arguing with that. I love it. Let's do it. So yeah. And you can email us if you're interested in any of that stuff. We love hearing from listeners and viewers. It's boardgamefaith at gmail .com. Boardgamefaith at gmail .com. Next time, what's coming up in the next episode? Kevin (56:24.113) Exactly, exactly. That would be awesome. Kevin (56:43.089) Book club! It's actually an academic article, theological article, about the life of the Holy Spirit. And if you're coming this from a non -Christian point of view, you can just rethink that in terms of just spirituality or spirit. But this particular article looks at marks of the presence of the Holy Spirit and includes in that a strong notion of play. So that's where we're going to enjoy reading an article by Simeon Szal. Daniel (57:13.293) you found a great article. Thanks for bringing it and I'm looking forward to getting to talk about it next week. It'd be great. And also next episode, next episode. Kevin (57:17.841) Yes. Yes. Daniel (57:26.572) We have a drum roll, drum roll. Do we have a drum roll? Oh, I think you've got a... Kevin (57:29.073) I have a media, but I do. Daniel (57:37.388) We have a big announcement, a special announcement next episode. It's a big one. Please tune in and find out. Kevin (57:41.713) special. Kevin (57:50.353) I'm gonna tell them now, is that Beyonce is gonna release a country music album this year. Oh no wait, it already happened. Oh, okay, we'll come up with another surprise, don't worry. Daniel (57:52.268) Uh... Daniel (57:58.156) What? What? Daniel (58:05.964) Maybe is it that I Taylor Swift is going on tour? Kevin (58:10.961) Really? 2024? Daniel (58:13.164) I think it happened. Kevin (58:16.881) Oh, this is so hard. Okay, we'll think of something else, folks, but it'll be really great. What are you gonna do? Daniel (58:20.556) You know what I'm going to do now, Kevin? After all this episode about not needing new games, I'm going out this afternoon and getting a new game. Yeah, so. All right. Yep. I want to buy Twilight Inscription. Yeah, yeah, it's not a new game, but it's a couple years old, but I'm excited to try it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (58:24.785) What's that? Are you really? Do you know what it is? Kevin (58:34.577) Are you? Kevin (58:38.097) But you planned it out. You planned it out. Do you have a route you're taking? Have you packed the lunch? Daniel (58:43.468) Yes, yes, I know the route. Anyway, Kevin, thanks so much and listeners, thank you so much. Great to have you joining us. We really appreciate it. Kevin (58:49.393) Bye. Kevin (58:54.673) See you, bye.