Daniel (01:11.791) So each of us has a unique personality, right? How you're wired may be slightly different from how that person next to you is wired. And they may be different from the person next to them and so on and so forth. But you know, across the human family, there do seem to be patterns, way this... I'm sorry, can I start again? Sorry, blah, blah. Okay, here we go. Part two. Kevin (01:36.779) You can. Daniel (01:45.403) So each of us has a unique personality, right? How you're wired may be slightly different from how that person next to you is wired and how they're wired may be a little different from how the person next to them is wired and so on and so forth. But you know, across the human family, there do seem to be patterns, ways that our personalities can be similar or grouped together. One tool that many people, including many religious people, have found helpful in understanding those personality patterns is the Enneagram. For many folks, the Enneagram can help us to understand our motivations, our fears, and our values. But can the Enneagram also help us to understand our preference for board games? In a previous episode, we took a dive into the first half of the Enneagram, It's Enneagram Part 2 in this edition of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games! Daniel (03:07.559) Hello and welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. It is so good to have you here and joining us for this episode. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (03:16.915) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (03:19.299) And to all of you, we want to thank you for taking a moment to share a part of your day with us. And it is good to have you here. And Kevin, it's good to have you here. You look like you're feeling better, like you're recovering from some of the viruses that I know is kind of going around your home. How are y'all feeling now? Kevin (03:42.902) We've been, we decided to visit Virus City. And because we had bought a package, we kind of had to stay the whole time. But thankfully we are now exiting Virus City. Come along. Wasn't that a Prince song? Come along. Something about a city? Virus City. I think that was Prince, but anywho. Yeah. We are, um, we're on the mend. So thanks. Yes. Daniel (03:46.971) Oh no. Daniel (04:00.903) virus city come along. Maybe, maybe. Daniel (04:10.691) Okay, oh I'm sorry, I'm glad that you were able to get out of the package deal. Kevin (04:13.462) It's not COVID and it's not flu. Yeah, and it's not RSV and it's not NIV. Sorry, it's a Christian Bible joke. Acronyms, acronym city. Anyway. Daniel (04:23.037) Is this a KJV? Daniel (04:29.263) Yeah, well, good, good. I'm glad that you're out of Virustown. That's not a fun town to visit or to get a package deal in or even to have a timeshare. Kevin (04:34.935) Yes. Kevin (04:39.018) But occasionally it just, you know, it's like someone shows up and just takes you there. They put you in witness relocation program and you kind of have to just play along for a while to use the game. Daniel (04:50.575) Yeah, yeah. Won't you take me to... Kevin (04:52.87) It happens. Funky town. Healthy town. Now that a city come up. Maybe it is. I just remember that bit like a very bass voice going to the city. Come around. It's probably from Bach. I think it might be Bach or Beethoven. Daniel (04:55.923) Funky Town is not the song you were thinking of. Won't you take me to Virus Town? No. Maybe, I don't know. Daniel (05:08.359) I like it. A lot of people confuse Prince and Bach. They're similar. They're similar in a lot of ways. Yeah, I love it. I love it. That's great. You know, I love it. Kevin (05:20.638) Yeah, the only reason Bach didn't sue Prince for stealing his songs is that A, he was dead, and B, the patent number had expired. So other than that, it was total ripoff. Daniel (05:30.963) Copyright, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whenever we hear viruses in our family, at least for Kristen and me, the thing that it always reminds us of is, this shows how old we are, but years ago there was a Saturday Night Live skit where they were doing a fake commercial for a rock festival. And, you know, like, this Sunday out at the park, it's, you know, extreme rock or whatever. And they were just, and like the, the commercial was just kind of poking fun at how extreme the rock festival tried to make it. At some point they advertise that there are airplanes that fly over the rock festival and like drop viruses on everybody. And the line was, we're going to spray you with viruses, yo. So, so what do we hear that? So that's kind of our thing now. We're going to spray you with viruses, yo. Is the, is the... Kevin (06:14.596) Yeah. Kevin (06:22.941) to the extreme. Daniel (06:28.783) Anyway, so that's right. That's right. Well, anyway, I'm glad you all are better. And I hope I hope our listeners are healthy and well too. And and our viewers some of us may be watching the show on YouTube and anyway, however, you are consuming this media. We hope that you are healthy and happy and well. Kevin (06:29.314) How much do you really wanna rock? Do you wanna rock while you're sick? Too funny. Kevin (06:45.791) Mm-hmm. Kevin (06:54.462) Eat me, Seymour! No, feed me, it's feed me, feed me, Seymour. Little shop of horrors. They're consuming us. Daniel (07:02.281) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right, that's right. So today, Kevin, we're talking about part two of Enneagram. And why is this part two of Enneagram? Kevin (07:14.582) because we did a prior episode and we did a bit of history and overview and we would encourage listeners and viewers to check that out. Search it or I'll put a link on YouTube right above here for that prior episode and yeah check that out so we won't rehash all of that, correct? We'll just give a real quick overview. Daniel (07:35.535) Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, so that's exactly right. We hope you will check out the previous episode where we go more into a deep dive in terms of the background of the Enneagram. But in terms of the Enneagram in a nutshell, like in a tiny, tiny nutshell, what would you say, Kevin? What's the, people who aren't familiar with Enneagrams? Kevin (07:58.546) It is a it's a nine so the word itself means nine really nine writing gram telegram right so any gram So that just refers to nine personality types and there are various claims about the origins that are somewhat unclear The time we really see it prevalent is in the 1970s. So it is kind of recent to thinking but it's very popular in christian and psychological therapeutic settings. Is that fair? So it's a good way to start. And the idea is that everyone kind of falls into one of these types, but of course there's variation and you can lean towards others as well. So there's a bit of messiness. And if you are interested in knowing your Enneagram, there's many websites you can go to and books you can read about and podcasts dedicated to it. But one we would probably send you to is your Daniel (08:28.743) Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Kevin (08:52.754) Your Enneagram Coach dot com. Y-O-U-R. And that's a free, you know, they'll encourage you to make an appointment with them, but you don't have to. Just sign up, take the exam, and get your results. And you can't fail. Yeah. Daniel (09:05.115) Right, right. And we're not in no way, that's right. And we're in no way like partnered with your Like this isn't an advertisement or anything for them. Kevin (09:10.942) I mean they just sent me a hundred dollar bill, but I'm not gonna disclose that. Daniel (09:16.939) Sorry, I take back. No, no, no. An enneagram for folks who may be wondering how to spell that. It's E N E A G R A M. E N E A G R A M. Yeah. So yeah, like you said, just a way of that's right. That's right. Without tele and with any in the front, not spelled A N Y, but E N E. Um, but yeah, this idea that. Kevin (09:18.11) a hundred denarius, which I think I can use. No, we are not affiliated with them at all. Kevin (09:33.942) like a telegram without tele with any a. Kevin (09:43.574) Mm-hmm there was an Audi there was an Audi gram at one point, but it did not take Daniel (09:47.167) There was an Audi gram. Yeah, yeah. But it only, it was, no one liked it. It was, that's right. So there was, so it's basically this idea that there are nine personality types, that's right. And most of us kind of fit into one of those, just a way of understanding fears, motivations, personality. So yeah, so Kevin, what are... Kevin (09:54.646) No one liked it. It's gross, just gross. Kevin (10:13.506) Mm-hmm. Daniel (10:16.031) What are some of the, what's the first half of the of the different nine personality types in the Enneagram? Kevin (10:22.166) Yeah, just real briefly, I'll do the first four because there's nine and you can do the last five. But the number one is perfectionist, someone who wants it done rightly in their moral, they avoid blame, that is me. Yeah, I want it done correctly and I don't like being, well, no one likes being blamed, but yeah, I kind of, I like to follow the rules, I'm a perfectionist. Number two is the helper, someone who wants to be loved and needed and often avoids their own needs. Daniel (10:25.236) Yeah. Kevin (10:50.826) So they really take pleasure in being loved and needed by others. Number three is a performer, someone who wants success and wants to win and avoids failure. So someone who might want to be on television, for example, or in front of others. And number four, and of course, this is about lots of just listen to these and you can always Google it later if you're driving, etc. Don't worry about writing these down. Just get a sense of them. But number four is the romantic. need to be extraordinary and understood and avoid being ordinary. So the person that's gonna really wear the pink tuxedo to the prom and desperately hope that everyone thinks it's awesome. But they're gonna be different. We think our middle child is a bit of that. Daniel (11:36.315) You got it. I love that. I love those people. Nice, nice. That's awesome. Thank you, thank you. And then number five is the investigator, sometimes called the observer. This is someone who really just likes to kind of often work independently, largely independently. Doesn't like a lot of help from others, just to observe and understand the world around them. Often kind of seen in conjunction with kind of a... Kevin (11:42.79) Yep. Daniel (12:05.591) especially focused kind of scientific worldview. Number six, the loyalist, sometimes called the questioner. They very much value security and safety, can kind of, maybe the shadow side is, maybe can catastrophize, that's the word, things, but can also be very committed and loyal and funny. Kevin (12:27.566) Mm-hmm. It is now. Daniel (12:33.767) The enthusiast is number seven, sometimes called the adventurer. They just like to have a good time, right? And they're fun and they're happy and avoid kind of the negative, harder things of life can tend to. That's right. It. There's no party until the enthusiast arrives. Kevin (12:44.758) You want the enthusiast at your party. They're gonna be the life of the party. Kevin (12:52.15) The perfectionists are just over there cleaning things. Yeah, it's really sad. Daniel (12:55.003) That's right. Yeah, yeah. The challenger is number eight. They like to value strength and can sometimes kind of be confrontational or commanding, avoiding weaknesses. Avoiding weaknesses can be a part of that personality. And then number nine is the peacemaker, which is often seen as kind of very accommodating. avoiding conflict as we shared in the last time. You're number one, Kevin, both in Enneagram and in life. But then I'm number nine. Kevin's number one. He's number one. And then I'm number nine on the personality type. I'm the peacemaker. Just in terms of like, I just value Kevin (13:32.876) Mm-mm. Kevin (13:37.806) That's the best. Kevin (13:43.23) He's number one. Daniel (13:54.067) Bridge building between different groups and different people. And that gives my heart joy. And then the flip side is kind of like, nothing annoys me more than when people don't get along. It's like, come on life. Kevin (13:56.321) Mm-hmm. Kevin (14:06.262) Right. Which might be why you're attracted to board games, because they're a great way to bring people together. In fact, they're probably the best way to bring people together. In terms of health, it's like a good healthy way to connect. Yeah. Awesome. Daniel (14:11.215) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Daniel (14:21.083) So thank you. And then one thing we, just a couple caveats we haven't said yet, but we said this last time, just say it again this time. Kevin and I are not experts on this. As Kevin mentioned earlier, there are a lot of other podcasts and books dedicated to the Enneagram, people who know a lot more about this than we do. So we're no experts. Please don't take our words on about any of this as authoritative, but we're just kind of having fun with the ideas and exploring what they might mean for board games and spirituality. And then finally, kind of, Yeah, go ahead. Kevin (14:51.975) And just comment too, pat on the back here, Daniel. I don't know that anyone else has ever done this. So if we're wrong, let us know in the comments or email us, boardgamefaith at gmail.com. But as far as we know, like using the Enneagram related to board games is kind of, you know, this is a board game faith innovation. So I'm proud of that. I think it's cool. Daniel (14:58.984) No, no. Daniel (15:06.803) That's right. That's right. Daniel (15:17.583) I'm grateful to get to be sharing in it. Yeah, yeah, I think this is pretty cool. I'm grateful for you and for the listeners and going on this journey with us on it. And also, yeah, also just to say, no system is perfect. We talked about this at the beginning. Whoever you are, you are more than a number. You're more than a number on a chart or a personality type test. So please just know that, but this is maybe ways of roughly sketching some things that may be helpful in terms of understanding our personalities, but if it's not helpful, it is not the be all and end all of everything, just let it go. So anyway, yeah. Kevin (16:00.906) Right, I think that's a great point. I think the goal of it is self-acceptance and self-awareness, that you understand what is helpful to you and what is not, and so you can hopefully build a life that is oriented towards that. I mean, you're going to still have to pay your taxes and mow your grass, so you can't... none of us can live the life we exactly want, but you can shape the parts that you can. Daniel (16:07.049) Yeah. Kevin (16:25.998) according to what gives you joy and energy and avoid the things that will just ruin your short time here on earth. So I think the takeaway is to be self-aware, but also aware of others. That sometimes when people do things, it's not because they don't like us or they're intentionally trying to upset us, it's that it's something that's really difficult for them because of their personality type. And so that helps you understand where the people are coming from. It's... yeah. Go ahead. Daniel (16:47.816) Yeah. Daniel (16:54.735) I think that's such a great point, Kevin. Yeah, no, I just, I agree. It reminds me of, I think, a lifelong struggle I've had in trying to understand what we call the, you know, the golden rule in the Christian tradition, but other religions have other forms of it as well. And, you know, the sense of, you know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, you know. And that I... Kevin (17:21.314) Hmm, ooh. Daniel (17:23.495) for the longest time, and still today I fall back into this. I'm so far from having a complete grasp of this, but for the longest time, I just assumed that other people were wired the same way that I was. And so I thought if I liked something, then for me to treat others the way that I wanna be treated means that I play into that. So like if I like playing really... Kevin (17:40.27) Right? Daniel (17:52.231) be board games or whatever, then surely this person must too, or whatever, you know. And it occurred to me, I mean, it's nothing original to me from others, but the sense that really doing unto others as you would have them do unto you doesn't mean assuming that they're wired the same way that you are. As I maybe am trying to learn to understand it, what it means is first you got to understand how that person is wired, right? And just as you would want someone to take the time to get to know, as I would want someone to... Kevin (17:53.952) Oh my goodness. Kevin (18:16.784) Mm-hmm. Daniel (18:21.875) to take the time to get to know how I'm wired and what fits well with my wiring, doing unto others as I would have them do to me means I need to take the time to get to know how they're wired and to care enough to do what appeals to their wiring, right, and not to mine. Does that sort of make, I hear you saying that. Kevin (18:32.723) Interesting. Kevin (18:38.927) Oh no, that's so deep. We're going off script here, but I never thought of applying the idea of the golden rule to the Enneagram, but you're right. In some ways it raises a real question to the golden rule, which is can you really do unto others what you want done? Daniel (18:42.909) Hehehe Kevin (18:55.57) unto you because people are wired differently. So yeah, I like that, that what we'd want to do is for people to understand us on some level and respect our differences. And it makes me think too, maybe the golden rule is really about the moral law. So it's not supposed to function in terms of how we flourish. It's just saying, okay, if you want to avoid sin and evil, do you want to be stolen from? No, well then don't steal from others. So it's really waiting to encapsulate our moral relationships. Daniel (19:25.424) Okay, yeah, yeah. Kevin (19:25.77) But if we want to flourish, we really have to think a little differently, which is not just morality, but how to live our best life. I don't know if that's a moral issue. Daniel (19:29.162) I see, I see. Daniel (19:32.808) Mmm. So maybe the golden rule is more about restricting behavior maybe. And well, I like you, but right, right. Kevin (19:40.618) Yeah, or just how to get along without... yeah, I'd have to think more about it, but we don't typically use the golden rule as a as a basis for spirituality, do we? I guess you could, but it's really more about... Daniel (19:52.975) I don't know. Daniel (19:56.399) Yeah. You know, I think also about in terms of like, someone told me the other day, a Jewel who sometimes listened to this podcast, she was talking about this idea, you know, they all have this idea of different love languages, right? That there are different ways that how I feel loved, what makes me feel loved is how it makes someone else feel loved. And, and, yeah, yeah. So, you know, so like, Kevin (19:57.988) That's that's Kevin (20:13.934) Mm-hmm. Kevin (20:21.058) Yeah, it's almost a variation of the enneagram, some level. Daniel (20:27.483) If one person feels loved by getting a lot of hugs, you know, or things like that, but someone else, but you assume that's how everyone likes to feel loved. Some people are you're going to give them a hug and they're going to say, hey, that's really much too touchy feely, right? You're kind of, you're kind of approaching my personal space and my boundaries. I don't feel loved. I feel vulnerable. I feel attacked, you know, and unsafe. And so it means taking the time to really get to know Kevin (20:43.594) Right? Daniel (20:55.559) that person's heart and how they're wired. There isn't good or bad, there's just different ways of being wired and getting to know and care enough about another person to understand what love means for them, right? How they, yeah, I think we're all saying, we're just saying the same thing again and again, yeah. Kevin (21:01.407) Mm-hmm. Kevin (21:12.554) Yeah, I didn't know. And you know, I've seen this in real life, IRL, and I'm sure you've seen it too. At the end of a church service, if you are a pastor, typically you go some place in the sanctuary or outside the doors, and people greet you afterwards. It's just kind of a... it's one of those things you think about later, like, I don't know why we do that, but we do. And some people are going to slip out through other exits, so it's not mandatory or anything, but I've noticed that what you're Daniel (21:17.52) Cool. Daniel (21:29.083) Yeah. Daniel (21:33.659) Right, right. Kevin (21:42.826) really want to hug and they're going to be offended if I don't hug them and other people don't want to be touched and it's really tricky to understand how to interact with people. That whether you shake their hands or you know yeah it's a it's a weird dance. Daniel (21:46.376) Yep. Daniel (21:52.135) Yep, yep. Daniel (21:57.095) Yep, yeah, you're right. Some are offended if you don't hug them and some are offended if you do hug them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (22:01.502) Right, right. And then every, yeah. And that's probably where I got this virus, but well. Daniel (22:10.579) So on the first episode about the Enneagram, we did Enneagram numbers nine through four because it's a circle. So we just went nine, one, two, three, four. But today we're looking at numbers five through eight. And the first one we're looking at is number five, kind of the investigator or the observer. And Kevin, what are your thoughts on that? Kevin (22:31.378) This is so interesting. This personality type makes me think of someone who's really a scholar, like someone who's going to be really happy studying, writing books, researching, and so their games are probably going to be similar to that. So that would be a game where you get to learn or reveal something. So there's several games and this is one that you and I had mentioned, The Search for Planet X is a great, such a good game. Daniel (22:58.527) Yes. Mmm. It's a great game. Kevin (23:00.742) And that is exactly a game where you are trying to figure out clues. It's really a puzzle in a lot of ways, a race to the puzzle. It's a puzzle with a timer. And it's just really well done. And so that would be an investigator observer type. Might be kind of a choose your own adventure type story. Makes me think of Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective, which we bought one of those. You know, I did not like it. I have to admit. Daniel (23:10.044) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (23:18.764) Oh yeah, yeah. Daniel (23:23.602) Oh, I've never played that. Yeah, how is it? Really? Kevin (23:30.17) It's such a cool concept and lots of people love it, so it may just, I'm sure it's just me, but you get a box of clues, like newspaper clippings, and you're supposed to figure out what's happened, but there's very much a gotcha element in this game. I find that I dislike in any game, which is, well, if you'd gone left and you'd figured out this is a red herring, you'd have won. But because you went right, or you bleed this other person based on randomness, Daniel (23:39.294) Yeah. Kevin (23:59.746) than you lost. You're basically trying to beat Sherlock Holmes in how many steps it takes you to figure out who did it. And I find that really frustrating. It feels very arbitrary. Daniel (24:06.872) Okay. Huh. Interesting. Yeah, I could see that. Kevin (24:13.13) But some people really love it and I can see in a group setting, you know discussing the theories could be really fun Daniel (24:19.291) And maybe if you were an Enneagram 5, you might enjoy it more maybe in terms of maybe that's the, yeah, yeah. But I like that. Yeah, so games about like, so what I hear you saying is that like, yeah, games especially about like logic and deduction, right? Like here are the pieces of evidence, here are the pieces of data that we have. Kevin (24:24.478) You might, you might. What about you? Kevin (24:33.141) Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:39.611) And then what can we conclude from it? What, you know, who is the murderer? Or search for Planet X is the same way. You get certain clues and you're trying to figure out where this hidden planet is in the night sky or in the, you know, in the galaxy. Yeah, I agree. And another great logic deduction game that our family likes is called Cryptid. It's a really, it's similar to search for Planet X in a lot of ways, but you've got this map. Kevin (24:41.998) Mm-hmm. Kevin (24:46.955) Right. Kevin (24:54.017) It Daniel (25:05.147) and you have certain clues about a cryptid, about a kind of a mythical creature, where they live in this habitat, and you're trying to use your deductive skills to figure out the actual location of this cryptid, this mythical animal on the landscape. And yeah, Ocronicles of Crime occurred to me as well, kind of, it's another, again. Yeah, you know. Kevin (25:20.877) Mm-hmm. Kevin (25:28.642) That looks fun. Is that good? Is that a good one? Daniel (25:34.071) It is fun, I can see why people like it. I have to, and maybe this is because I'm not a personality type number five. I have to admit, I just, I didn't quite get into it as much. I, mainly because I thought I was really bad at it. I was really bad at it. And again, maybe it goes back to personality type, but we'd get all these pieces of data and I just couldn't string them together to form the conclusion that the game wanted me to form. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (25:46.798) Mm-hmm. Kevin (25:58.338) Right. You know, maybe my problem too. I can't string it together and you're supposed to figure out somebody's lying, but how do you know? You're just, it's intuition maybe because you don't catch them. You might catch them in a lie and something, but in some games, I mean, maybe there is a way, but in general, you just have to kind of guess. Huh. Yeah, I've thought about that. We had Detective City of Angels and that- Daniel (26:07.12) Right, right. Daniel (26:13.755) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (26:24.789) Oh yeah, I wanted to try that. Kevin (26:27.026) Our family is really like that, and because that one's a little goofier. So it's a bit of that, what we're saying, string along and guess, but because there's an element of a sort of a game master and some, and others racing, but kind of messing with each other, we found it really fun. I don't mind at the end that I lost cause you just have a good experience. Cause it's kind of like, you can go shake down the casino for the mob and stuff. So I, it's goofy. Daniel (26:28.931) Okay. Yeah. Daniel (26:45.734) need. Daniel (26:55.399) Are there only a certain set number of cases in that game? Okay. Kevin (26:58.222) There are, there's like five, I think, or so. I don't know why I'm giving a number. I don't remember. I don't know why I said it feels like five, but there are expansions, which I've almost bought, because that's one game that our family really has enjoyed playing together. Because our middle child is just so funny as the GM or DM or whatever, Game Master. So yeah, that kind of game would work. Even Sleeping Gods might work, because you're investigating a storyline and following a plot. Daniel (27:03.919) Yeah, no, that's fine. No, that's fine. Yeah. Daniel (27:13.215) neat. Daniel (27:24.68) Mm-hmm. Kevin (27:27.63) kind of a choose your own adventure type experience. So it's not so much getting the right answer as deducting through what might've happened or way a path, you're finding pathways. Yeah. And those are also great for solo. So investigator observer may be into a group setting or it may, I think it's often described as independent and private. So they may really like solo games. Daniel (27:27.824) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (27:40.239) Right, right. That's... Oh, are they? Okay. Daniel (27:54.209) Ah, solo gaming, yeah, that's a great idea. Kevin (27:56.118) Sleeping gods is really very much a well. I mean it can be co-op, but it's a solo game that could be caught. Yeah Daniel (28:04.667) And if you're into solo games as an investigator, a personality type number five in the Enneagram or an observer, I feel compelled to mention two lines, well, one line specifically of solo gaming that I just adore is the, I think they call it the Oni universe, but it started with Onirum. And then there have been many sequels, several sequels to it. And all of those games are just... Kevin (28:23.901) Mm. Daniel (28:31.451) fantastic solo games, just small box solo games. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. Yes, I do too. Oh, I know, I know. Yeah, they just came out with a new one last year in that series. Yeah, I went check out. I forgot the name of it at the moment. Oh yeah, I don't have that one. Cool, cool, cool. So that's number five, the investigator or the observer. Kevin (28:33.362) I have one of them and yeah, it is a great little game. Yep, I love the art. And the box opens up in a cool way, like even the box is a part of experience. Kevin (28:47.69) Oh. I had the fire one. I just had the fire one. Okay. Kevin (29:00.619) Mm-hmm. Daniel (29:02.319) And number six is the loyalist or the questioner. The loyalist or the questioner. So yeah, so these are folks that. Daniel (29:19.743) that especially, you know, I mentioned at the beginning kind of like safety, security, kind of value that especially, but like being able to weigh that kind of especially. Daniel (29:36.903) communicate their ways into that and communicate maybe their ways deeper into a sense of safety and security and on the flip side, maybe kind of contend to catastrophize things as well. And I have to admit, I struggled a little bit, especially with trying to come up with game possibilities for number six, the loyalist or the questioner. But I wondered whether... I wondered whether negotiation games might be... Kevin (29:57.899) Hmm. Daniel (30:06.859) might be something that a questioner or a loyalist might like because negotiation games are very much about you asserting your agency using your communication and negotiation skills to get yourself to a secure position, right? To try to... It's not based on luck or it's based on how you can navigate your environment and your interaction with other players to... Kevin (30:07.022) Okay. Daniel (30:35.667) to get in a good place for yourself. And so that's why, so I thought about maybe negotiation games, especially like Bonanza, which is spelled with an H, for those of you who aren't familiar with the B-O-H, N-A-N-Z-A, it is, I would go out on a limb here and I would say it's arguably the definitive card-based bean farming game. Kevin (30:42.584) Mm-hmm. Kevin (31:05.718) Are you sure? Because that seems to be a very generalized statement. Daniel (31:06.832) I'm not, I, you know, I will die on that hill. This is the definitive card-based bean farming game. Kevin (31:17.982) It is a great game. I'm so terrible at it. I don't understand why. There's something, there's a synapse in my brain that just always loses at this game, but it is a great game, yeah. It's one of the best card games ever, let's be honest. Really? Daniel (31:28.999) I do too. I do too. Yeah. It is. It's really... And Uwe Rosenberg's very first game for those of... Yeah, some of our listeners may know Uwe Rosenberg is a very famous board game designer, has gone on to design a lot of super popular games and pretty heavy games. But his very first game, as I understand it, was this, it's still complicated, but lighter card game about bean farming. Bonanza. And then there are some other negotiation games that I think of. Chinatown is another great negotiation game. So anyway, just those are some, but I don't know, does that, what do you think Kevin, about this idea of, do you think Loyalist Questionnaire would like to go? Yeah. Kevin (32:14.87) Yeah, it makes me... Loyalists... I think they love a co-op game. So maybe like Pandemic, where you're trying to stay secure and you make decisions together. So the Loyalists probably would... well, they might be okay with an Alpha Gamer, because part of it is, as I take it, is kind of unity in some ways. Daniel (32:20.476) Mm, mm, yeah, yeah. Daniel (32:38.227) Mm-hmm. Kevin (32:39.03) They desire security, so they're going to trust the alpha gamer to hopefully get them through the game, because they want to win, I would assume. But that would be a great one. So any co-op game where you're working together to avoid losing or dangerous situations. So any of the pandemic games would be great. Nemesis is a great game where you're kind of... Daniel (32:46.803) Yeah. Kevin (33:04.398) crouching your way through a Spaceship with alien monsters so that it might actually drive them a little crazy because it's too much for your you can die and get infected and even be eliminated from the game and so that I think a Loyalist would really hate that Daniel (33:15.085) Mm-hmm. Daniel (33:23.759) I wonder, as you're talking, I wonder also whether maybe a game that six personality type, loyalist or question I might enjoy, would be kind of those very gentle games without win or lose conditions, but just games where you're trying to see how well you can do. But then there's kind of not that insecure feeling of, oh no, am I going to win or lose the game? But more gentle, like I think there's a game called Gentle Rain that I've never played, but I've heard... Kevin (33:41.046) Mm-hmm. Kevin (33:46.818) Right. Kevin (33:53.238) Mm-hmm. Daniel (33:54.189) is a game very much like that. I think Alice. Kevin (33:58.69) Right, I like it. So you're beating your score, but you're not going to really lose. It's not a high stakes. Yeah, I think you may be right. They might be good at dice mitigation type games where you do want to catastrophize because you have to prepare for the worst case, which is if you roll a one, you lose the game on this roll. So there are some games that allow you to... Daniel (34:03.196) right. Daniel (34:06.642) Um. Daniel (34:13.971) Hmm. Hmm. Kevin (34:24.262) mitigate the risk which is interesting like a final girl in some ways has that Ways to prepare for how to win and so they might actually be really good at that Because I tend to be a little impulsive so I'm like, oh we're gonna win it and they're like you're all the one You're like, oh we just lost And I just think if I just slow down slow down Kevin slow down, but I get excited Daniel (34:28.115) That's good. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (34:34.687) Okay, that's a good idea. Daniel (34:40.902) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh no! Daniel (34:47.867) Yeah, sure, sure. Well, that's number six. Yeah, so what's number seven, Kevin? Seven, Kevin. It's a nice rhyme. I like it. Kevin (34:50.526) Number seven, yeah. Number seven is the enthusiast. Seven Kevin. Seven Kevin says, seven is the enthusiast. Fun and happy and avoid pain. So this is the, they're gonna like party games, right? They're gonna enjoy things that really build a lot of energy in the room that are gonna get people laughing. Daniel (35:09.12) Yeah. Kevin (35:18.142) And games are great because they're not necessarily painful. Unless it's a game with player elimination, but most other games, if you're playing, say, tell us Stratus, what's the worst thing that happens? You draw a bad picture and everyone laughs like it's a which is the exactly. So there really is very little pain if the if everyone's having fun, there is no pain in the game. Daniel (35:23.033) Mm-hmm. Daniel (35:33.051) That's right, which is actually the best thing that could happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (35:41.959) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (35:42.29) if you're bored or you got eliminated or it's too hard. So they're gonna enjoy games that are a bit lighter maybe that can be unintentionally funny or intentionally funny like telestrations or maybe code names. Like, no, I meant the blue one and everyone laughs, you know, that might be a good one for them. So party type games is what I'm thinking. What are your thoughts? Daniel (35:51.251) Mm-hmm. I like that. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (36:03.495) Party games are great. Party games are a great recommendation. Kevin (36:08.886) Oh, speaking of, we did this at church. Well, the women's group did this for their Christmas party, and then we did it with the kids. There's a really funny game someone found on social media where you blindfold someone, and they have a bowl, like a big punch bowl, like a very large bowl, and they have a spatula. And you cover the table with little ribbons, like you put on gifts, Christmas gifts and others, that you stick on. Daniel (36:22.556) Yeah. Daniel (36:26.035) Yeah. Daniel (36:29.843) Oh. Daniel (36:37.031) Yeah. Kevin (36:37.254) And in one minute they have to see how many they can scoop into the bowl. And they're blindfolded and then the spatula is flat, right? So you have to kind of get in and then they're falling off and you have. So everyone else is watching them basically shovel air and laughing. Yeah, it was really cute to watch people do that. And then some people got pranked, like they took all the ribbons off the table. And so they actually never got any. Daniel (36:41.895) Oh, that sounds fun. Daniel (36:46.651) Yeah. Daniel (36:54.183) That's really funny. Uh, that's that's... Daniel (37:03.371) Oh no, oh no. That sounds fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (37:05.93) No, I mean it's goofy. So that kind of game was really... Yeah, remember that one next year for Christmas. They were... people were just hooting and hollering. They were having so much fun. Because it's intentionally embarrassing because you can't see what you're doing. Which makes it safe because there is no pain. Daniel (37:12.731) I like it, I like it, that sounds fun. Daniel (37:19.171) I like that. I like that. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, no one can fault themselves or say I'm an awful person for not getting. Right, right, right. That would be an interesting, go ahead, sorry. Kevin (37:30.826) Yeah, well like TELESTRATIONS, it's actually more fun if you're failing. It's the beautiful bit. Because then everyone's laughing harder. Because, yeah. No, no, that's all. That's all. Daniel (37:44.635) That would be an interesting topic for a future episode, Kevin. Like how can games help us to make peace with failing or have fun with failing or embrace our limits and our failures and even delight in them or celebrate in them. That would laugh at ourselves. Hmm. Anyway, just a thought. Yeah. Kevin (37:48.852) Ooh. Kevin (37:55.02) Uh huh. Kevin (38:01.707) Right. Kevin (38:04.97) Yes. No, I like it. As well as grow, I have to admit I've kind of realized I've not always been a great gamer. And that's something that I'm learning to get better at. I'm learning better strategy. So it also is a way to improve. If you embrace the failure and say, okay, I lost, why did I lose? I must have a, you know, a post-mortem type thing of what can I learn from that? And then Daniel (38:12.251) Yeah. Daniel (38:19.263) Mmm. Daniel (38:27.879) What can I learn from that? Yeah. Kevin (38:31.306) You know, it's like you do get better. You're like, OK, if I let me try this and then you get better. That's a real thrill. Daniel (38:36.547) Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's this, you've probably heard it, there's a famous Rumi poem, and I forget the name of the poem. But Rumi, as some of our listeners may know, was a Sufi Muslim poet from the 13th century, I believe. And a contemporary of St. Francis, by the way, which I thought was fascinating, that these two people would exist at the same time, because they're kind of like, they share a similar spirit in some ways, but from very different religious traditions in very different parts of the world. But... Kevin (39:00.371) Oh wow. Kevin (39:05.453) Mm-hmm. Because Francis wrote, he wrote some poems too in a sense, like the Canticle of the Sun and things. Daniel (39:11.492) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. I, it feels like the spirit of God was doing something beautiful in the world at that time. And also some awful things are going on in the world at that time too with the Crusades and such. But anyway, but Rumi is this famous Sufi Muslim poet from, I think he's from what is now Afghanistan, I think. Kevin (39:23.362) Mm-hmm. Daniel (39:41.679) And this was, don't quote me on that. I'm sorry, Iran or what's now Iran or Afghanistan. Anyway, but, and by the way, did you know he's the bestselling poet in the world? But we, at least he was according to something I read a few years ago. And listeners, if you know differently, please correct us. Yeah, but like we almost never hear about him in the English speaking world, but the bestselling poet in the world. Kevin (39:56.203) I did not know that. Kevin (40:02.154) More than Shakespeare. Kevin (40:10.067) Hmm. Daniel (40:10.179) Anyway, but he has this poem where he talks about how everything that happens. Daniel (40:18.527) in life is sent to us as a guide, like a guide. And I think it makes me think about that when you talk about ways of seeing our failure, you know, and failure in games or even failure in life, that everything can be seen as a guide or a teacher, you know, and what do we learn from this? How does it, how can it guide us? Anyway, yeah. Kevin (40:21.739) Ooh. Kevin (40:29.312) Mm-hmm. Kevin (40:39.434) Yes, well, you know, in some ways this is, we had an earlier conversation with Dave Bindelwald, and that was one of the things he works with, right, is how to embrace failure. Because failure's, yeah, free to fail, which, because it means you tried something different, and it also means you have an opportunity to learn and grow. And I think this is also in Kate McGonigal's book, Reality is Broken, that we need ways to f— Daniel (40:48.8) Mm-hmm. Yeah, freedom to fail. Daniel (41:00.52) Yep. Daniel (41:05.659) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (41:08.29) a fail and learn and grow in our lives and workplaces and things because it means we're trying something new. Daniel (41:16.475) Yeah, yeah. And play, playfulness is certainly a great teacher for embracing our failure and not being afraid of it. Um, as we tend to kind of think of it as the worst thing in the world in our very kind of achievement oriented worldview, kind of our success or success oriented worldview that, that's, that's often nurtured in our corner of the world. Yeah. Um, Kevin (41:26.827) Right, right. Kevin (41:39.691) Yes, yes. Kevin (41:43.511) Yep, yep. Daniel (41:45.435) Well, cool. So number six, number... So we did seven already, didn't we? You did... Yeah, yeah, cool. Great, great. Thank you. Well, that brings us to number eight, our last Enneagram type that we are discussing between last episode of this one, which is the Asserter or the Challenger, the Asserter or the Challenger. And to me, it seems as if someone who's a personality type eight, Asserter or Challenger, would especially like player elimination games. Kevin (41:45.997) Very good. Kevin (41:49.75) No, we did seven. Kevin (42:15.415) Oof. Daniel (42:16.32) It, you know, just games where there is this kind of fun way of asserting oneself and saying, a fun way of confronting others, a fun way of asserting oneself and saying, here I am, you know, and you're not. You know, I'm kind of the last person standing. And so player elimination games, probably the most famous one, of course, is chess, is a classic player elimination game. But there are a lot of Kevin (42:41.635) Hmm. Daniel (42:45.319) hobby board games that are player elimination. Personally, I don't get them quite as much. So I don't know a lot of them, but I know one that I enjoy that I've talked about is Strike. Strike is a dice player elimination game. And it's so fast. A game is over like in five to seven minutes. You don't mind, even if you're not someone who likes those kinds of games, you don't mind it because it's fun and it's done really quickly. It seems very silly. But anyway, those were kind of my thoughts on personality type 8, if you're kind of a surter or a challenger. How about you, Kevin? Any thoughts on games? Kevin (43:24.522) Yeah, I mean eights are tricky. I think they are probably the alpha gamer And so if you're an eight you need to watch out although at times you do need a little leadership. You need a little guidance So there is a place and a time for an occasional eight to step up. I know one time we were playing pandemic with someone And we kind of told him not to do something that we'd probably lose the game and then they did it anyway And then we lost the game. So it's kind of funny but also Daniel (43:51.529) Yeah. Kevin (43:53.446) you know, unpleasant. It's one of those, you know, do you just let us lose or do you step in? So eights have a certain strength and a real weakness in the sense that they can dominate a game and make people feel very like they don't have any autonomy or choices. So yeah, I think you're absolutely right that they're gonna enjoy some player elimination or ways to be bold to kind of lead. So they might like a game that is a co-op that they can... Daniel (43:56.23) Right, right. Daniel (44:00.496) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (44:11.283) Mm-hmm. Kevin (44:23.178) be a leader, but hopefully not dominate too much. Daniel (44:26.555) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (44:28.378) The player elimination I did think of coup which is such a great game. It is a little frustrating to get eliminated But hopefully if you play several hands different people are getting eliminated So it becomes it doesn't feel too personal and it can still be fun to watch people bluff So it's a bit like watching a poker game You're just sitting there wondering or you can even maybe look at their cards and not say anything just like Sit behind them and watch them try to lie I don't know if you ever played coup Have you played it? Daniel (44:32.113) Mmm. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (44:40.945) right. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (44:54.083) Oh, like once you've been eliminated? Yeah, yeah. No, oh, uh, yeah, I think I tried it once. I think I did try it once. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, it's sort of like, is it werewolf? Sort of like werewolf? No, okay, okay. Kevin (45:01.79) It's a great game. It's a bluffing it. Nope, nope, nope. This one is you get two cards and they're, you use them to claim a certain power or condition. And that you can lie and then if someone calls you on it, then they lose one of their cards. They're also your life. So when you lose your two cards you're out of the game. Daniel (45:29.503) Okay. Kevin (45:29.87) So you can say, I am the assassin, and I'm going to kill Daniel's card. But Daniel could say that he has a character that blocks the assassin. So you get bluffs within bluffs. So it's really good with teenagers because they get to act out and be bold, and then also fail. And then it can be kind of funny, like, okay, I wasn't the assassin. Right? And so, and then you can tax and various, there's some coins that then can let you take certain actions. Daniel (45:38.287) I see. I see, I see. Daniel (45:49.863) Right, right, right. Kevin (45:59.85) Yeah, it's just a series of... What's that? It really is, it really is. It's kind of a one trick pony. After you've played a few bits, you're probably ready to take a break. But it is a good game. So someone who's good at bluffing. Yeah, so number eights would probably be bluffers. So they'd be good at poker or something. Don't you think? Because they're assertive, confrontational. Daniel (46:02.729) It sounds fun. Yeah. Daniel (46:15.535) Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. I like it. Yeah, yeah, I like that. Daniel (46:25.609) Yeah. Kevin (46:27.978) Yeah, show me your hand. Let's see who wins. Daniel (46:28.019) Good, good. Daniel (46:32.359) The hearing you describe it makes me think a little bit of like a very popular game love letter to which may or may not be. But you know, basically, you just have one or two cards in your hand at all the times. And that's very Kevin (46:43.982) You know, I've not played it, but I know it's a very popular series. Love letter. Daniel (46:47.183) Yeah, it involves a fair amount of bluffing. And there's these different combinations where one card can eliminate the other or weaken the other or it's just, yeah, yeah. Cool. Kevin (46:58.53) What's great with bluffing is when there's someone that you don't know is good at bluffing and they trick everyone, especially sometimes it's a little kid, like some six-year-old just bluffed you out and then everyone dies laughing. So I like those moments. Or someone that you think is good at bluffing is actually not. You're like, oh, I know you're lying. And the other thing with coups, you have to remember what you bluffed because you could be down to one card and then you'd claimed earlier that you were the... Daniel (47:04.572) Ah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (47:12.892) That's great. Daniel (47:18.238) Yeah. Daniel (47:23.144) Hmm Kevin (47:28.194) the captain and then if you forget what you said and you try to change it then someone's like I know you're you know something's fishy here. Daniel (47:29.5) Right, right. Daniel (47:39.235) Ah, after you give it a try sometime. So that's the Enneagram. Cool, cool. Well, I hope, hopefully, between this episode and last episode, folks who are listening or watching, hopefully you found some games that sounded interesting to you and maybe could fit well with kind of whatever your personality type might be. We... Kevin (47:42.935) Anyway, so that's the enigram. Daniel (48:09.363) We certainly had fun talking about him. Kevin (48:11.254) That's right. Do you think there's larger takeaways we could get from this, Daniel? Let me think about these as a whole. Daniel (48:16.208) Yeah. Yeah, I know that's something we had discussed earlier. I mean, I, I mean, um. I mean, I like what you were saying earlier, Kevin, just about this thought of, it's a reminder that, you know, we're all different and it's not quite, it's not fair to assume that the kind of joy and love that we're going to find in a certain kind of game is what someone else is going to feel. And I don't know, how about, you said that better. How would you say this or how would you talk about it in terms of your takeaways from all this? Kevin (48:54.41) No, I think you said it great that trying to see what people enjoy and being aware, if you want to play a game with them, you may need to meet them where they are. So if you simply want to play a game and you know the type of person they are, then that may help you pick a game or suggest a game that will appeal to them. But that expecting someone who is into maybe. being impulsive or wants to make grand actions or wants to be, I'm looking back at the list here, something enthusiastic or a challenger, expecting them to play a three-hour Euro game, you know, why did you think that would be fun? So if your goal is to have fun, you need to make choices. And I think we all know this on some level, but this might help you articulate what games you pick for which groups. Daniel (49:36.828) Right, right. Kevin (49:50.37) and understanding where people are coming from. Maybe you need house rules for a game to make it slightly different. And also you might think of your board game collection and experiences. Have you experienced all these types? And which ones are you missing? And maybe you'd like them more than you think you would. So maybe try some of these that you don't normally play or add them to your collection if you don't have a bluffing game. And you want it. One thing that games are great at is it gets, lets us try on you. Daniel (49:53.948) Yeah. Daniel (50:02.093) Mm-hmm. Kevin (50:21.31) styles. And that's, I think, the theme of a book that we've not read yet, or I haven't read yet, Games' Agency. Is that right? Daniel (50:22.14) Yeah, yeah, I love that. Daniel (50:29.964) Hmm, or agent games agency is art. Yeah Yeah, yeah Kevin (50:33.606) Agency is art and that's going to be one of our book club selections coming in 2024. So yeah, if you don't normally bluff, game is a great time to try it out. And you may be terrible at it or you may get better at it or you may hate it or you might actually really like it. It's a safe space to bluff because it's not real money. It's just a game. Daniel (50:37.479) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (50:45.115) It is a great way to explore. Daniel (50:50.279) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (50:54.523) A great way to explore your personality, some maybe under accessed part of your personality or something like that. Yeah, I love that, I love that. And it reminds me, hearing you talk also just reminds me of, you know, unless you're doing a solo game. Kevin (51:01.525) Yeah. Daniel (51:13.675) Games and play are fundamentally a communal experience, community experience, and which means ultimately that it's not just about me, right? It's not just about what kind of game I like. And so playing with others, setting games with others can be an invitation to... Kevin (51:26.211) Mm-hmm. Daniel (51:42.447) or a guide as Ruby might say, to growing in compassion and understanding of the wiring and preferences of the hearts and minds of others and seeing what connects with them. An opportunity to think about that in more meaningful ways than I might think, usually as I'm going through my day, just kind of focused on my own stuff, you know. Kevin (51:55.236) Mm-hmm. Kevin (52:06.582) Right. There's a bit of, there's always a bit of a negotiation in a game. You're, you're allowing someone to a space and you're agreeing to follow certain rules. And you may really want to have a cup of coffee, but you can't at the table because you don't want to spill it on the game. So you're, there's a bit of a negotiation in any gaming experience. Somebody's going to take longer than you and at their turn. Um, so that's an opportunity to, to grow and be patient. Daniel (52:26.963) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin (52:35.154) Or to say, you know, I'll never play this game again, which is totally fair. You know. In fact, I've got to get the game Destinies. I got several years ago, I thought I would like it, and I don't know, I think I'm gonna have to sell it. I just, it's just, I'm never gonna play it, and it just kinda, yeah, I need to just admit that, why? Oh, I thought you were, no, I want you to tell me. Daniel (52:39.107) It is, it is, yeah, yeah. Daniel (52:44.983) Yeah. Hmm. It just wasn't for you. Daniel (52:54.867) Do you know why it wasn't for you? Could you name that or not? Oh yeah. Ha ha ha. Kevin (53:02.474) I think it has that, you know, gotcha element of, well, if I'd gone left, then I could have achieved it. And I think with the right group, that's a D&D type group, it could be a lot of fun. But I don't know that I enjoy it as a story, as a solo story experience. It's not enough of a game. It's sort of trying to do a D&D experience as a game. And I'm not sure that works for me, but lots of people love it. I mean, they made a bunch of sequels. Have you tried it? Daniel (53:07.391) Okay, okay. Daniel (53:12.967) Yeah. Daniel (53:16.469) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (53:27.579) Yeah, for sure. For sure. I have it too. Yeah. I mean, and I... Kevin (53:32.61) What do you think? Daniel (53:37.219) I liked it, but I have to admit I haven't, I've not played it a lot either. I'm trying to think why I haven't returned to it. Daniel (53:51.187) This may get a little bit to what you and I were talking about before we started recording, but I... Daniel (53:58.147) I seem to be at a stage in life where I'm kind of gravitating more toward games that require... less and less setup and less and less investment of myself in terms of carrying through from one game to another, you know, and I enjoy the game, Destiny's, but I guess for me it felt like, especially with involving an app and things like that, there's a fair amount of things you have to do to set up a game experience, and then it can be carryover setup from one game to another. And I think I'm just. Kevin (54:09.634) Right. Daniel (54:35.637) my heart and mind is just in a different place right now in terms of... Kevin (54:38.41) Yeah, you know, we should we should do a episode on like seasons of life and seasons of gaming because I think you're right you there's a almost a lifespan of the gamer that you go from. Daniel (54:44.126) Mmm, yeah. Kevin (54:53.522) Early on excitement. I mean, I used to dream about board games. I'd play something and then that night I was dreaming about it, thinking in my dream I was trying to study the rules. And now I don't do that as much. And I'm a bit choosier and pickier. Or like you're saying, I want something that's just more approachable and less of a immersive experience. So maybe we go through a spring, summer, winter. Daniel (54:58.848) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (55:09.263) Right, right, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (55:19.862) Wait, hang on, spring, summer, fall, winter experience. Daniel (55:23.375) Yeah, I'd like that. That would be cool. We'll write it down. I mix it. Kevin (55:26.162) Yeah, Ecclesiastes, the season for everything type thing. Yeah, Destiny's. Go ahead. Excuse me. Daniel (55:29.508) Ooh, yeah. I'm excited for. Just I'm excited for a lot of different cool episodes coming up this year, the rest of 2024. Kevin (55:38.206) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know for me for Destiny's there was a point where there's, and I don't think this is a spoiler, but you know, take it with a grain of salt, but there's one of the figurines that's like a large angel type thing, and it got on the board, but we had to have something to keep it there. And like we didn't know where it was, and then within a couple turns it was gone and I was just like, how was I supposed to? Like there's no way to know that I was supposed to have that, I don't think. And so if I'd luckily gotten it, and so now I don't know what we missed out on, and I guess you could replay it, but that's that gotcha bit of like, well, how was I supposed to know that? And maybe I'm just bad at it, but I found that frustrating because I want to know what was going to happen with the cool angel. Daniel (56:25.499) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (56:27.486) And there was a failure condition, I guess, because it's a game, right? So there has to be a win-lose condition. But it felt, left me feeling right. Well, I'm thinking of Bernard Suites, like there has to be a win condition type thing. Daniel (56:34.519) Right. It's not a cooperative game. Yeah, right, right. Kevin (56:45.814) But yeah, I didn't find any hints for it. Like I didn't meet four people. They're like, make sure you get the magic feather or whatever it was. So there's a timer in the game. Daniel (56:57.647) Yeah, I think that's kind of maybe what I was saying earlier about Chronicles of Crime, why I didn't maybe quite get into that as much. I felt like, you know, like I missed, I missed a clue that the game, like I really, that I really needed to get in order to get the game, you know, to fit to win the game. And Kevin (57:05.066) Hmm Kevin (57:09.634) Yes. Kevin (57:15.262) And maybe if you love that type of game, or if you're good at finding the clues, or it all works out in terms of timing, I bet it's really thrilling. But, but yeah, I find that it just doesn't work for me. Daniel (57:23.431) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (57:27.411) just based on personality types. Yeah, someone should talk about that. Yeah. Kevin (57:29.758) I guess so. Yeah. And experiences. And maybe it's just bad luck with the experience. Yeah. Interesting. All right. Any special games over the holidays you want to mention? Daniel (57:41.547) Yes, I was going to ask if maybe if I wanted to share one game we enjoyed over the holidays. I'll just share one, share some more maybe in the future. For Christmas, I got a game called Switch and Signal, which I am really enjoying. It is unlike any other game we have. It is a cooperative game where you are trying to get trains to pick up goods from cities and then deliver them to the harbor. Kevin (57:54.443) Ruh. Daniel (58:11.327) And it's, I have just discovered that I really like pick up and delivery games. I think I'm about myself. But this is cooperative. So no one's winning or losing. You either, everyone win or everyone lose. You're trying to get, you know, the trains to deliver all the goods in time before the game ends. But the real mechanism of the game is switches and signals. You have to turn different switches and signals on and off throughout Europe. Kevin (58:11.346) Oh fun. I don't have very many pickup and delivery games. So that's cool Daniel (58:41.087) to make sure the trains can get to where they're going and they don't run into each other and they don't hit each other and they're going in the right direction. And it's really fun. I like it. So Switch and Signal. Yeah, it's a very puzzly. It's a cooperative, puzzly game, but it's fun. So how about you? What's a game you played over the holidays that you liked? Kevin (58:49.742) So very puzzly. Kevin (58:55.382) That's cool. Kevin (59:00.002) We played the cat in the box, and that is a card trick-taking game, which I love trick-taking games. It's like this theme that people keep. It seems to have a lot of different combos. I remember in college we played a lot of spades, and then hearts, which is like a weird version of spades where you don't want to take tricks. So even back then with just a deck of cards in the 90s, we were having fun with trick-taking games. Daniel (59:15.843) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (59:28.359) That's a great game. Kevin (59:29.79) Cat in the Box was cool, especially because I read through the instructions, but that's the kind of game where I don't think you understand it till you play it a few times. And then you realize how you can have a paradox, which is picking a card that doesn't exist in a sense. And that just became really interesting. That's a great, puzzly game. And we were and I was playing it with three other people and none of us had played it before. And we all at the same time were like, huh? Daniel (59:38.159) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (59:48.796) Yeah. That's awesome. Daniel (59:58.299) Yeah. Kevin (59:58.47) You start realizing there's just a lot of depth to that game. So you've played it as well. Daniel (01:00:03.183) Yeah, that's awesome. That's a, I have, I have. And yes, I agree. I loved it. It's one of those games, I think, as you said, I love games like this, where when you read the instructions, you don't think it will work, but then you actually play it. It's like, oh, oh yeah, oh, I get it. But just reading it, it's like, what? This won't work. What's the, yeah, yeah. Kevin (01:00:18.173) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kevin (01:00:28.118) Yeah, because when I read it, there's a paradox condition. And I thought that was rare somehow, as I misread the rules, I'm sure. But it happens a lot. That's how most of our games ended. And maybe we were just noobs. But it's very easy to get yourself in a paradox where you need a card that doesn't exist. Daniel (01:00:39.059) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (01:00:49.371) Right. Kevin (01:00:52.13) So yeah, that was a cool experience. We had a lot of fun with that. Okay, man. Well, we've got great plans for 2024. Daniel (01:01:00.491) Yeah, we're looking forward to sharing this coming year, the rest of the year with you all, listeners and viewers. Thanks so much again for taking time to tune in, to watch us. It is such a gift and a privilege that you share some of your time with us. And we really thank each of you. And Kevin, thanks so much as always to you. I always enjoy getting to hang out with you. Kevin (01:01:28.13) Same here, same here Daniel. Okay, have a fantastic bi-weekly life. What? Daniel (01:01:35.335) Well, you two except I forgot, how can people contact us or find us? Kevin (01:01:38.56) Oh Carry your pigeons. Daniel (01:01:42.387) Carrier pigeons, that's the game I'm working on. But yes, that we're working on together. But yeah, so we can, what are other ways besides carrier pigeons? That's right, that's right, that's right, that's right. Yeah. Yep. Kevin (01:01:49.57) Say, because you like pickup and delivery. That's perfect. Of course you want to carry your pigeon game. Yeah, Instagram, Boar Game Faith, and we are on Facebook, Boar Game Faith. Just search for us there, and you can, boargamefaith.com, and email boargamefaith at gmail.com. Carry pigeon coordinates, alpha, gamma, three, by the old cow, four, delta, epsilon. Daniel (01:02:07.175) That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (01:02:14.495) Yeah Kevin (01:02:18.062) Because I bet it's been around a long time. Well, I know it's been around a long time, so I bet they use Greek letters. Daniel (01:02:23.111) I think so, yeah. I'm reading a book about carrier pigeons, but that's for the next time. We'll do next time. We'll talk about that next time. I just, that's right, maybe, maybe. And if you do enjoy the podcast, if you happen to have time in a moment to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, we'd appreciate that very much. We understand that kind of... Kevin (01:02:26.41) Are you? It's for research, for your game. Daniel (01:02:45.819) trains the algorithms to recommend our podcast to other people. So we'd appreciate that too, if you feel so led. So anyway, thank you so much, everyone. Thanks, Kevin. We'll see you all next time. Kevin (01:02:52.622) That's right. Kevin (01:02:57.026) Peace. Oh, bye. Kevin (01:03:03.406) I didn't know.