Daniel (00:11.68) Holidays and games go together like peanut butter and jelly, or like peanut butter and chocolate, or like peanut butter and honey, and banana. But why? Why do holidays and games go along with each other so well? It's Holidays and Games. Kevin (00:22.07) Peanut butter and honey. Kevin (00:25.907) and banana. Daniel (00:41.256) Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games! Kevin (01:03.746) It's spinning. I don't know it's live at a hip play. What is it doing? Yeah, I can just insert do Play in life, but nothing's there Daniel (01:08.564) We can do the music ourselves. Do, do, Kevin (01:23.106) dee digga do Daniel (01:32.508) Well hello, welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. It is so good to have you here. My name is Daniel. Kevin (01:39.499) My name is Kevin. Daniel (01:41.332) And it is a joy to welcome you to this little show where we talk about games and religion and spirituality and things like that. Kevin, it is good as always to see you. How are you doing? Kevin (01:57.27) I'm good, I'm very good Daniel, thank you. Very nice, and yourself. Daniel (01:59.456) Good, good, good. I'm doing well too, thank you. I'm doing fine. But I'm not doing as well as you because you have recently had an adventure. Kevin (02:04.706) Good. Kevin (02:12.606) Yes, I went to Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love for Pax Unplugged. I decided to go big or go home. I'd never been to a board game convention before, so why not go to one of the biggest in the country? Why not? 30,000 of my new closest friends were there. So yeah, that was really neat. It was an interesting experience. Daniel (02:17.288) Brotherly love. Daniel (02:27.412) Wow. 30,000. Daniel (02:34.96) You said like the first day the line wrapped around the block three times. The second day. Kevin (02:38.486) The second day, it went three times, and then I saw someone on YouTube had sort of video, Vblog, Ublog? Vblogged it? Vblog? He Vblogged the, he said it went around four, it rapped four times at one point around the building. I guess at that point I was already in line one or two of the rap, and I'd... Daniel (02:47.889) Vlogged? Vlogged it? Daniel (02:54.816) Wow. Kevin (03:02.998) Didn't care because I just wanted to get in. But yeah, I mean, it's massive, it's huge. There's a lot of angles to it. You could go there to shop and buy games, especially games that are released but not distributed yet. So, Zu Vadis is a really great game I got to play there. I did not buy a copy because I didn't think I had space in my luggage because I didn't check anything. but it won't be available in North America till April, but I could have bought it there. So that haunts me to this day. So you can buy games, you can try games at the library, you can try games that are in process. So the upcoming Molly House game by Whirlygig, I got to play an early, sort of just a brief round of that to see what it's like. Yeah, and I didn't realize that was the designer, Joe Kelly, I think is his name. He was actually the person at the table. So you get to meet Cole Whirly and people. Daniel (03:31.72) That's so cool. Daniel (03:46.385) Nice. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (03:54.701) Oh really? Kevin (03:57.244) and his brother Drew and makes him new friends. So it's really neat. It is tricky in that it's so big you really need a tribe. You need a group and that means you either have to bring friends, which I didn't do, or you're gonna have to be patient and cultivate friends that you will see and meet up with on a regular basis. Daniel (04:08.009) Yeah. Daniel (04:20.841) Right. Kevin (04:21.054) If that right so you end up it's going to take a few years. But as you go and you meet you meet people you play games you get their contact info you ask if they're going next year you hang out with them for lunch or dinner. Or play some games and they're yeah. Daniel (04:38.364) And you met some board game faith, some members of the board game faith family, right? Some of our listeners, yeah, yeah. Kevin (04:44.83) I did, I did. I got to meet some members of the family, which is cool, especially John Glenn, not the astronaut. And he is a great guy. We got to spend some time and chat. And he is trying to work on some games in production. He's met with some publishers. And that was really cool to see that process. That part of what's happening at these conventions is board game publishers are looking for new ideas, new designers. And... Daniel (05:05.824) That's so cool. Daniel (05:12.509) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (05:13.578) That was neat. So he demoed one of his games with me and described some of the others and yeah So that was awesome. I know Daniel (05:18.564) Oh, great. Oh, well, good luck to you, John, and getting those games published. I know John reached out on social media, direct messaged us to see if either of us was there. I know Camping Meeple reached out as well, and that, a little tricky as well, but it was so great to have folks reaching out, and I hope in the future we'd love to meet with any of our listeners, yeah. Kevin (05:38.762) Yeah, Liz Davidson reached out. And Liz Davidson is working on a game, so it's neat, it's really neat, that process. So it's definitely a big, it's business and fun going down at PAX. And Philadelphia's great. That was really, that was neat to just see, be in a big city since I don't live in one. Daniel (05:46.384) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (05:54.472) What was the biggest surprise? Yeah. Daniel (06:03.996) Right, right. What was the biggest surprise of your very first Board Game Convention that you attended? How was it different than what you expected? Yeah. Kevin (06:11.886) Probably the scale. I mean, I did not realize how big... It was just vast. Maybe two football fields, I'm guessing. American football, which I don't know how that compares to... To world... Worldly football? What we can call it, global football? Right. Which does involve feet. Daniel (06:21.18) Wow. Daniel (06:27.952) I think it's just what the rest of the world calls football. Yeah, just so like, I think American football is equal to 1.732 global football, I think is what it is. I think that's the conversion ratio. That's right. The rest of the world plays metric football and American plays American football. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (06:40.355) in square inches. Kevin (06:45.034) Right, right, right. And there's a, you could do inches third, instead of squared, what do you say, third? How do you say that? To the third power, inches to the third power includes time, includes the length of the actual game, if you wanna use that measurement. So it'd be length, width of the football field, not the pitch, and time, that would be inches to the third power. Daniel (06:57.077) to cube, you cube it. Daniel (07:04.707) Oh, right. Daniel (07:14.74) That makes total sense to me. I celebrate all of that. Yeah. Kevin (07:15.978) Yeah, yeah, it's useful. It's a useful number, yeah. No, it's just that, I mean, it was just a ginormous hanger of people playing games. I mean, they had tables out and you could check out games and play. Daniel (07:31.484) Wow, that's amazing. Kevin (07:32.322) So I crashed in on a game of scholars of the South Tigers because I knew the game and I saw some people setting up and I just was like, I want in. And they said no and I said please. And they said no and then I said pretty please. Poor, poor Favore and they let me in. So it was great. And I came in second so they will never call me again. I almost won. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (07:49.372) You know, I admire- Oh, okay. Well, I admire you though for putting yourself out there and getting in the game. Yeah, that's cool. Kevin (07:59.85) Well, you know, most gamers, the only requirement is a desire to play games. Yeah. That's it. Daniel (08:04.072) That's right, that's right. What makes games great. Oh, I'm so glad that you went and it sounds like you had a great time. Kevin (08:10.634) Yeah, yeah, I think I'll go again. So we'll see. And you and I are definitely scheming to go to some sort of a convention. And there's one in Charlotte I found out in January. So that, I'll definitely go to that because I can just go down for the day. I'm an hour from Charlotte. So I don't have to get a hotel or hotel is the biggest expense. Really? Because flights are kind of cheap now. Yeah. All right, well today, Daniel, we are talking about games and holidays. Daniel (08:14.334) Yeah. Daniel (08:24.348) Yeah, that's your neck of the woods. Right, right, yeah, yeah. That would be great. Daniel (08:38.381) Right, right. Kevin (08:39.602) And you have some preliminary prologue, prefatory thoughts, I think. Daniel (08:45.736) Well, I just you know, just as you and I were talking about the subject of holidays and games and thanks for the good suggestion Of that was your idea just they really do seem to go well together, right holidays and games Really seemed to go well together There are you know, you and I were trying to think of a few historical examples and honestly Kevin (08:57.083) Mm-hmm. Daniel (09:09.108) think it was a little tricky to think of some but like you know in Judaism there's the dreidel right you have the dreidel at Hanukkah and neither of us are experts at that so probably you know can't say much more than that but just to acknowledge that is that is a traditional game played at a Holy Day dreidel in Judaism we sort of I started it was anything you know we're talking if there's anything like that in Christianity Kevin (09:25.046) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (09:36.752) Not really we could think of, but I mean, the Advent calendar is kind of a gamey sort of thing that are in some Christian traditions, that you open up one door of the calendar each day of Advent. For those who are unfamiliar, Advent is the season of four weeks of getting ready for Christmas, getting ready for the celebration of the birth of Jesus. Yeah, it's a countdown calendar. Yeah, and so in this tradition you got this kind of this box that has 25 Kevin (09:54.95) Mm-hmm. It's a countdown, really. Daniel (10:06.472) days on it for the 25 days of advent or actually I guess of December. Advent doesn't always necessarily follow the 25 days of December. Actually it doesn't. But anyway it's close and you open up a door for each day of the of December and a little tiny door that's like the size of a postage stamp and behind often behind that door the open there's some little gift like a mint or a chocolate kiss or a new car. Kevin (10:19.424) Right. Kevin (10:36.946) A new car, right? Very small key to a Volvo, right? Daniel (10:41.577) That's a very tiny car. That's right. Kevin (10:44.362) Yes, maybe a sticker. Peel on tattoo. Daniel (10:46.632) a stick, a peel on tattoo, a piece of gum, St. Michael and all those angels. Kevin (10:50.974) of Saint Michael and all his angels. Which actually isn't a lot, he's embarrassed by that, Saint Michael. It's supposed to be all his angels, but it's like two. So it's, yeah, no, I'm just making that up. It is Saint Michael and all his angels, but I'm just joking. Like, he's really trying to brag, but the other angels don't like him. He's a, yeah, he's a rules lawyer and an alpha player. Daniel (10:58.417) Right. Really? They can't fit it in? Daniel (11:13.896) Really? That's too bad. Really. Kevin (11:18.25) Alpha dog. Yeah, and they just don't want to game with them. Daniel (11:20.864) I mean, you do hear it more about St. Michael, you know, Michael than the other angels. It would seem like if you're the other angel, you kind of get tired of it, maybe after a while. Like, we never hear about the angel Susan. Kevin (11:25.303) You do. Yeah. Daniel (11:35.74) Right? Kevin (11:36.595) She actually has a battle axe. I mean, Michael has a sword, but she has an axe. Daniel (11:38.617) She does. If I were Susan, I'd be like, I have a battle axe and no one talks about angel Susan coming in all of her glory with the battle axe. Why does Michael get all of the, yeah, I would. It's you and your single, single bladed sword. Kevin (11:47.41) Right. And offer glory. Double side of glory. Double the glory, Michael. Kevin (11:59.674) It's like the Jimi Hendrix experience. Like, does the experience mean the drummer? The drummer's like, what about me? Jimi says, shut up. One, two, three, four. Daniel (12:09.086) I'm sorry. Daniel (12:14.013) And we know that there are games and other religious traditions as well that we're just not familiar with. It just said just in passing, you know, that the game that we in the English world call snakes and ladders or chutes and ladders, you know, rose out of Hinduism, out of a Hindu tradition and has some connection to some Hindu holidays as well. But that's certainly nothing that we're experts on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (12:19.358) Mm-hmm. Kevin (12:34.43) or Hindu teaching, teaching concepts. Yet, as you were saying though, it got me thinking, I wonder if Easter, hiding Easter eggs is kind of a game. So that might work. So it's a game and that might be like the dreidel in that it's something you do around a holiday and it's more for kids, right? Cause I think the dreidel is for kids. I don't think it's an adult game necessarily. And hiding Easter eggs is, or finding Easter eggs more of a kid's activity. Daniel (12:44.268) Oh yeah, that is a game, that is really good, I like that. Daniel (12:55.325) Yeah. Daniel (13:02.492) And you know, that makes me think about the Epiphany cake, where you hide like, isn't there like, you hide a little figurine inside of an Epiphany cake or something like that, or like the Three Kings cake. Where I think maybe that's, I hear that may out of New Orleans or out of Louisiana. Maybe, I don't know. I'm not, I should have researched that before bringing it up, but. Kevin (13:08.257) Oh. Kevin (13:13.462) Yeah, I have heard of that. Kevin (13:18.85) Yeah. Kevin (13:23.051) Right. Kevin (13:27.362) Well, I was doing a little research for Advent, and I didn't realize till just the other week that it's not celebrated in the Eastern Church, the Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Christianity. It's really a Western thing, because they have Epiphany, it's a bigger deal, January 6th, which is the day... God, what does Epiphany celebrate? Daniel (13:36.999) Okay. Daniel (13:42.184) Yeah. Daniel (13:48.628) the revealing of, I think, conceptually, it's the revealing of Christ's identity to the world. Yeah, in the West, we do the Wisemen on that day. I don't know, but I mean, that's Christmas in the Orthodox Church, it's just January 6th, right? Kevin (13:52.351) It's the way it's the wise men know. Kevin (13:57.602) Yeah, that's right. So it's in our calendar, but. Yes, and so in the West it's December 25th and it has Advent, and in the East, which is Russian Orthodox and all those more Orthodox traditions, they don't do Advent. And they do Epiphany, and they do gifts, but don't they put it in the shoes? It has something to do with the... well, it does have something to do with the Wisemen, too. Daniel (14:16.102) interest I didn't know that. Daniel (14:26.628) I think I heard from my, I think I remember from my church history classes, class a long time ago, many, many years ago, but that at one time in the church, epiphany was this kind of umbrella term, right? To just celebrate all the ways of Christ being revealed in the world. And it included Christ's birth, but it included other things as well. And I wonder if that, if maybe, January 6th, I'm just totally speculating here, we need to talk to some of our Orthodox friends, but whether January 6th today still kind of plays that role in the Orthodox Church, that it is a celebration of Christmas, but it's a celebration of all the ways of kind of Christ's being revealed into the world, maybe. I don't know. Kevin (15:03.363) Mm-hmm. Kevin (15:12.362) Right, right. Very cool, very cool. Right. Yeah, that's it. Daniel (15:14.844) Anyway, yeah, if you know that any of our listeners, please let us know, we'd be interested to hear. I like how a good portion of every episode is, Kevin, you and I say, we don't know. Listeners, do you know? Please, please. Kevin (15:28.941) Right. If I could get off this camera and read and go Google on Wikipedia, I might know, but I don't know right now because I used to know, but I've forgotten. Daniel (15:36.833) Right, but we know, that's right, that's right. But we have amazing listeners. How about in your personal experience, Kevin, games and have games and holidays gone together for you over the years? Kevin (15:53.31) Not really, in the sense, I think some families have a game that they always play together. So that becomes part of the celebration of a holiday family social at time as they play a certain game. We have, Rummikubes has often been played in my house but not like with my parents and my mother especially, but it's not as if we always played it at the holidays. So there's not a particular game that developed within my family. How about you? Daniel (16:17.096) Yeah, yeah. Okay. Kevin (16:22.478) Do you have any? Daniel (16:24.08) No one particular game. I mean, there are some that are common and we'll be getting into them later on in our game list. But playing games on the holidays certainly has been a big thing for us, yeah. Kevin (16:37.35) Really, so your family always play, because see we don't, we don't always play a game. Daniel (16:39.956) Hmm. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's usually some part of our, of our holiday celebration in some ways, but. Kevin (16:50.666) Is that because that's part of your gift or your demands or your sulking or is that because they expect it? Daniel (16:55.5) A little bit of all of that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, well, recently, I mean, yeah, it's because especially since we've gone back into hobby board gaming, all of my gifts every year are games. And so it's kind of like, well, somebody please play with me. But but before that, even before that. It was, I think, a part of our holidays as we would play some sort of games together. Kevin (17:08.415) Right, right. Kevin (17:22.242) Mm-hmm and it is good when you've got kids that are out of school So games are great and that's not a holiday so much as a day Well, I guess it's a holiday in the sense of you're not necessarily going to work or school But it's not a it's not about the route. It's not about the religious significance of the days It's more of about we need something to do Daniel (17:41.716) Right. I think that's one of the reasons, yeah, yeah. That's a good point. I think it's one of the practical reasons why games and holidays go together is yeah, everyone's off. You're all together, at least in the Northern hemisphere. It's cold outside. You can't really do much outside. And so how do we spend this? Right, right. Kevin (17:52.781) Yeah. Kevin (17:59.598) Mm-hmm, and you don't want to talk about politics and you don't want to Rehab, you know, you want to be together in a positive way and games are Preeminent in that they can provide a positive Social interaction unless it's some euro and you're counting sheep on your little tableau and you don't like they've all fallen asleep And Daniel's still playing he's still shearing his sheep Daniel (18:09.052) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (18:21.896) But you know, I think in some ways, in some deeper ways, that captures the spirit of the holidays. Counting sheep, and you're counting little wooden sheep. Yeah, that's, I think it's implied in Luke. It's that the shepherds kept their sheep. Kevin (18:27.094) Does it? County sheep. Right, right. supplied yet as the best that is the best nap that Kristen's had in years was she does off playing the shearing sheep Christmas game. Daniel (18:47.412) Do you think there are, so there's some practical reasons for games and holidays to go together. Are there any, and of course I got some thoughts on this too, but any theological reasons, any spiritual religious reasons for games and holidays to go together? Kevin (19:01.014) I think this is one in our outline that you've mentioned, but I'll go ahead and take a stab at it because I think it's a good one. And that's that as we've ruminated on this podcast in the past, that we're meant for more than work as human beings. And so playing games anticipates a reality where we can enjoy each other, have fun and not have to do something, right? I was listening to Ezra Klein podcast, which I love so much recently. Well, and I don't know, it may have been an older episode, but the person was talking about deep reading and they cited, I'm not sure where they're pulling from this, but that Aristotle said there are three elements to the good life. It is work, which could be production or information gathering. It is reflection, contemplation. And this person was including kind of reading as a part of that life because you're using your mind and you're kind of interacting with the book. But, you know, that could include journaling or just thinking. So because for Aristotle, it would have been philosophy discussions, you know, what is the meaning of life type things. But the third bit is leisure. And so she doesn't go into this, but part of the good life is not working. And and so games remind us of that. Daniel (20:20.122) Mm, mm, yeah. Kevin (20:23.858) especially when people are not working, they're at home, and so it's a chance to have fun. Is that where you were going with the idea of celebrating the unnecessary? Yeah. Daniel (20:33.656) I love that, I love that. No, I love that as a sense of, yeah, it's a reminder that we are created to be more than just working creatures. Yeah, yeah, that sense of work and contemplation and reflection, that's a great triumvirate. It makes me almost think about, yeah, we've talked before about... Kevin (20:48.866) Mm-hmm. It is, I wish I could find the source, yeah. Daniel (20:56.7) you know, the difference between work and play, though they may not be as different as we think in some ways, but then we've also added, you know, like this idea of Sabbath, you know, and Sabbath in some ways is not the same as play. And I wonder if there's kind of parallels between that triumvirate and that three-some of work and play and Sabbath kind of at the... But anyway, I don't know. But it's good. I like that. Yeah, no, I think you said it really well. Yeah. No, no, no. Kevin (21:04.771) Mm-hmm. Kevin (21:11.021) Yeah. Kevin (21:23.07) I stole your thunder, I'm sorry. You put it in the outline and then I took it. Daniel (21:25.78) The only thing, no, it's, I, this is, it was all the outline because it's, we've worked on it together over the last few years. Though it's, no, only thing I might add is, you know, I think this is something that you and I have talked about before in episodes that, you know, I think when you get into the realm of the unnecessary. Kevin (21:30.018) It's bad, it's so bad. Actually, you just worked on it. Ha ha ha. Daniel (21:47.612) you're really, you're starting to speak the language of grace. You know, that just that, you know, that holidays from the eyes of the world are, you know, are unnecessary. We're not, in fact, in some ways, they're kind of counterproductive because we're not out there producing like the world says we should be doing. Kevin (21:53.099) Right. Kevin (22:06.846) Yeah, and then that's what I'm saying to Christmas Carol, right? Scrooge is mad that they are not working on it. He has to give them Christmas day off. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (22:11.346) Yes. Daniel (22:15.28) Right, exactly. Scrooge does not see... To Scrooge, the holidays are completely unnecessary. Right? It's a luxury. It's an indulgence. And games, as we've talked about, one of the fundamental definitions of games is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles, this Bernard Suits thing. The games are inherently necessary as well. And when we're talking about giving ourselves to the unnecessary, both either in holidays or games, I think it, like as you said, it... Kevin (22:22.338) Right. Daniel (22:44.424) and creates echoes and kind of gets us in a kind of a spiritual posture to think about grace, because you know grace, which can be defined in various ways, but just is you know this love of God, the universe, Allah, and however we want to define it, you know toward us, that is unnecessary, right? I mean God doesn't Kevin (23:09.954) Mm-hmm. There's something superfluous to it all. Yeah. Daniel (23:13.072) Right, right. If we earn that love, then it's not unnecessary anymore. It's something that we've earned, right? And so grace, by definition, is unnecessary. And the more we kind of celebrate the unnecessary gifts of life, I think the more it kind of gets us in a mental, spiritual posture to think about grace as a necessary gift from God, too. I don't know. Well, that's... I'm pretty sure you said that, and that I stole it from you. Kevin (23:17.015) Mm-hmm. Kevin (23:27.07) Ooh, that's good. I like that. Celebrate the unnecessary. Yeah, yeah. No, you said that. That's good. So, yeah, no, I like that. Daniel (23:41.276) Bye. Thank you. Daniel (23:45.656) Well, so, well, thank you. So, so, so Kevin, you and I have some games that we would, that we have experience that are good for holidays. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (23:53.674) Can I add something too? Can I add one thing? Along those lines, I think modern life today is particularly pernicious in the sense of if people have cell phones, they're never bored, and they're hyper-individualized. So the idea of watching a movie together as a family seems actually, it's difficult for us, and it's strange, because everybody could just retreat. So games have a particular thing to play in the sense that it can bring people together that otherwise are just gonna be scrolling. That life is so solitary now, thanks to the cell phone and its entertainment value. Yeah, that in the holidays, I don't know. 40 years ago, things were different and there was entertainment, sure, but people were bored a lot more and I think they're more willing to. Daniel (24:21.04) Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:30.312) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (24:48.67) watch a movie with someone or play a game out of boredom. But now we're never bored. Daniel (24:54.024) Right, right. That's a really good point. Yeah. Kevin (24:55.542) because of Netflix. And so games almost have like, they're almost like an evangelist for spending time with one another. It's almost like a missionary act, if you will, to save us from solitary entertainment. Yeah. Daniel (25:02.388) Mmm, oh! Game... Games as Evangelist. I love that. I love that. Kevin (25:11.082) And you know what, along these lines, when I was at PAX, and this is just me, my observation, I did not see a lot of people with AirPods on. And they are ubiquitous everywhere else, walking down the street, and I have some, so I'm not against them. But some people have them in all the time. I didn't see very many there. And I thought, I wonder if that's because the people here really crave social action and social interaction in some way. You know, like, why would you go to a board game convention with AirPods in? you probably are just going to stay home. I'm not saying there weren't any, but it was not like it is on the streets or in other places. Daniel (25:41.136) Right, right, right. Daniel (25:49.896) Yeah. It hits me that, you know, oftentimes on this podcast, we've talked about how games are a fundamental part of being human and, you know, and I think we believe that and it's, you know, it's always been a part of human history in every society. But in other ways, hearing you talk about it now, I mean, it's almost kind of a, like a, anachronism or something, you know, it's almost like, it's just to, it's, in our modern day and age to say, you know, let's gather around this, this table. Kevin (26:11.519) Yeah. Daniel (26:20.912) and move around pieces of cardboard and wood with no, I mean, yeah, there's app integration sometimes and things like that, but really not much of an electrical component to it at all. It does seem something almost from another era as well. Kevin (26:24.326) Mm-hmm. Kevin (26:33.494) Mm-hmm. Kevin (26:38.026) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (26:40.648) Which is cool. Yeah. I like that. Kevin (26:41.038) No, that's right, that's right. So anyway, that was a little codicil addendum. Yeah, but we want to do recommendations of games. Daniel (26:49.432) Yes, so these are recommendations of games for the holidays. I don't know about you, how you put your game list together, Kevin. Mine are by no way like my definitive games for the holidays, but I just listed some games that have worked well for our family and extended family over the holidays. And that's, so I've got a few games like that. And how about you? How did you think about all this? Kevin (27:14.314) Yeah, I just made up some. Yeah, I can do them alphabetically if you want. Daniel (27:15.772) Yeah, that's good. I like it. I like it. That's the best way. Sure. Well, yeah, do you want to go? Should we go back and forth? What do you want to do? Kevin (27:26.41) Let's go one, well I'll just go through all mine, you go through yours. How's that work? Okay. So in alphabetical order, from early letters to the end, my first pick is zebulon. No, I'm just kidding. Oh, these Zs. I think, I know, right? So I think a good game for the holidays. I wanted at least one that was a little more interesting. Daniel (27:29.764) Okay, okay, I like it. I like it. All right. Daniel (27:41.373) Hahaha Daniel (27:44.98) The grandparents love Zebulon. Yeah. Kevin (27:53.482) little crunchier, but maybe not too crunchier. I think Architects of the West Kingdom is a good one because if people are willing to learn it, it's, you know, you place a worker and you get something for it. And then you take those things and you're trying to build stuff. So they may not have seen a game like this, but it's got a winsome artwork. And I think you can jump into it. I think it plays five people, maybe. Daniel (28:06.76) That is good. Kevin (28:22.582) Maybe even more, I don't quite remember. But if you've got some folks that are willing to invest a little time or are tired of the usual game, I think Architects is my one slightly meatier choice. Daniel (28:36.976) I like that. Yeah, that's a really great choice. It's very accessible. Yeah, it does play one to five. I was just looking up, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (28:38.858) I was trying to think of something. Okay, one to five. So that is one issue, is if you've got a large group of people, you may end up being a subgroup at a family event, or maybe it works, or it's a late night thing. But yeah, I would put Architects on there. I think that's a good one. And it's not a super expensive game, if you don't have it. Very accessible. Daniel (28:55.744) That's a good one. No, and it's very accessible. You don't have to be a, like the complexity level is not super high, and yet it's really fun and thinky and it's interesting. That's a good choice. Kevin (29:06.606) Work replacement, yeah, like I do this, I get this. When I'm out of workers, then I'm done. So that's the easy thing to grok. Yeah, number two, I think this is the best game for accessible but interesting. Do you wanna guess? It's another A word and it means a color in another language. Azul, Azul is so good. I love Azul. Daniel (29:24.544) Accessible but interesting. Azul! Azul, that's a great one! Yeah, I love that! Kevin (29:33.418) It's thinky, it's challenging, but it doesn't have to be. And it's very calming and there's not even any numbers. It's pattern matching. Yeah, that's a really pleasant game. I think Azul is, that would be my go-to foundation game or gateway game for, even outside the holidays. I think Azul is just a real win. And it's a very, I mean, I think you can get it at Target. It's everywhere, it's not expensive. It's very satisfying with the bits like dominoes. Daniel (29:40.648) Yeah, that's such a good one. Daniel (29:50.952) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (29:57.193) Yeah. Now we. Daniel (30:03.172) I know there are a lot, there have come to be a lot of different versions of Azul out there. Are you talking about the original one, the original Azul? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (30:08.294) I only have the original. I think the original is fine. You know, if you really play it a lot, you go for the expansions. But I'm not sure what all is involved with all of those. Yeah, and Sagrada. So Sagrada would also be a cousin to that. It's a similar type experience. It's accessible. It's... People are going to like it just because of the table presence, because they're going to see colors and they're going to feel very... It's not Battleships or War Guys or Star Wars. Daniel (30:14.248) Yeah, yeah. That's a great choice. That is, that's a lot of fun, very accessible, a lot like architects in that way. Daniel (30:23.708) Yes, Cigarada. Cigarada's a great choice. Kevin (30:38.526) This next one I picked because I'm guessing one you're going to pick. So I was trying to pick something a little different. And that's good old charades, which you don't even need. I mean, all you need is a list of words. And I'm sure there's charade generators online, but charades is great. You don't need anything. It gets people up and they're acting out of different bits, because, of course, you can do anything but talk and it can play for a lot of laughs. And that could play. Daniel (30:49.524) That's good. Yeah. Kevin (31:05.546) Huge, you know, you could have, you could play that with 15, 20 people potentially. Because you do teams. So charades is my third pick. Fourth. Daniel (31:09.352) That's a great one. Daniel (31:15.688) with maybe a bonus of sagrada. Kevin (31:18.454) With a bonus of Sagrada, yep. Fourth is codenames. And that one's a little, I found and I teach it, sometimes people aren't, they're a little confused at first. Cause it's a little counterintuitive, which is a Vlada, Chevatel type game. Seems like he often does that, but it's a great game, and that's a fun game, and that's a more competitive game. Daniel (31:19.844) Yeah, yeah. Shout out to Adrian. Daniel (31:31.025) Yeah. Daniel (31:44.222) Yeah. That's a great choice. I think I've played Codenames with more individual people than any other game I own. And I don't think it's great for non-hobby gamers. And I don't think I've ever played it with anyone. I mean, with maybe a rare exception where at the end of it, somebody doesn't say, now, how can I get this game? Where can I get it? Everyone just really seems to really love it a lot. Yeah. Kevin (31:48.502) Codenames is great. Kevin (32:07.074) Wow. Uh-huh. Yeah, it's like a wordplay, it gets comfortable, you know, you're trying to do clues. So the code names, my last one is a new one to me and that is Scout, because Scout's just awesome. I've never had a game that had so much in such a little box. So Scout is really great, yeah. And it's a little hard to find, I think maybe you can get on Amazon, but in a resale type thing, but it can be a little hard to find, but Scout is great. It's really a lot like, Daniel (32:13.256) Yeah. Daniel (32:21.246) Oh, yes. Daniel (32:27.773) Amen. Yes. Kevin (32:39.662) gin rummy. It's like gin rummy but kind of different. Daniel (32:43.932) Yeah, that's such a great choice. I love Scout. I totally agree with you. It's so much fun in such a very, very tiny box. Everyone seems to enjoy it whenever we play it. That's great. Kevin (32:59.898) And if you've got older folks that maybe aren't in indie games, but they probably know gen rummy They're gonna feel comfortable because they'll get like okay. I do either multiples of one number or I do a run of numbers and they're gonna immediately get that and the difference is you can't Rearrange your cards. So that's the that's where it's a meaty game because you're trying to dump cards to get them together In a way that then you can use them But not too early and not too late Daniel (33:06.079) Yeah. Daniel (33:11.996) Yeah. Daniel (33:25.801) Yeah. Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. Yeah. Kevin (33:29.79) Yeah, there's a lot of timing issues in scout that makes it. I think any gamers going to enjoy it Daniel (33:35.144) That's a great choice. Oh, that's a great choice. You know, we've played Scout a lot as well, and I enjoyed it already, but I played a game at the play retreat, so I went with a group, and they brought another level of fun to it. which is they decided to play it thematically. Because thematically it's about hiring people for your circus. And most of the time, you don't have to play it thematically at all, but on every card, there's like really a tiny print, the name of somebody's name. Like, and yeah, and then like some circus device, like a cannon or a trampoline or whatever. And so they would say, well, Kevin (33:52.662) Ooh. Kevin (33:59.615) Uh-huh. Kevin (34:06.862) Mm-hmm. I've noticed that. Yeah. Yeah Daniel (34:17.568) Susan and David may have a great trappy stilled act, but it's nothing compared to the combination of Xavier, Margaret and Melody getting shot out of cannons. And then they throw it out, everybody's, oh! So, adding that little bit of circus theme to it, it was just goofy and fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (34:24.922) I love that. That's so funny. Kevin (34:35.906) They just did like a commentary on it. Yeah, I noticed those names and stuff. Yeah, I love it. It doesn't need the theme. You could just play without the theme, but I love the theme. It's really cute that you can hire away different circus acts to have a better act and you're beating each other's act by having a better, yeah, it's really. And Uno, the one thing for Uno, I mean, that's not a great game. It can just drag out. But the idea of someone going out suddenly is fun. Daniel (34:44.694) No. Daniel (34:48.292) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (35:03.656) Yeah. Kevin (35:04.954) Scout captures that because the game ends when someone's out of cards so you're having to keep an eye on it as well as figuring out how am I gonna go out and And it captures that in a way that it's a lot more fun than you know Yeah, what are your picks Dan the man? Daniel (35:09.065) Yep. Daniel (35:12.797) Yeah. Daniel (35:18.088) That's awesome. Great, great choices. I like those. Well, I'm really glad for your choices. Those were great, Kevin, thank you. And one thing I like about it is you have a lot more, you have more kind of current games than mine. My list is a lot of older games, but that's, I think, largely because those are the games we have played over the holidays. Kevin (35:25.73) Oh, thank you. Thanks, man. Kevin (35:45.591) Hmm. Daniel (35:45.932) some of my favorite holiday memories, and we do this almost every year, is at some point we usually get together with my mom. And my mom listens faithfully to the podcast. So hi, mom, thanks for listening. And she's out in Kansas. And these are games that my mom likes to play, our adult children like to play, Home from College. Kevin (35:56.756) Hi mom. Daniel (36:12.716) and Kristen and I like to play, or when we go to visit Kristen's family in North Carolina that her family likes to play as well. So these are games that just kind of spans the generations and that have been really popular. So, none of these are like really hot current games, but they're fun games. So the first one you mentioned earlier, Kevin, that wasn't on your list, can you guess what it's okay? You mentioned in the context of holiday games. No, even before like earlier on in the episode, it's okay if not. No, good. I don't mean to make you, it's fine, it's fine. No, Warhammer 40,000 is the, no, I'm just joking. Ha ha ha. Kevin (36:42.082) Sagrada? Kevin (36:48.362) Easter eggs? Kevin (36:53.476) I don't remember. I don't remember anything. I knew your mom wasn't into that game. Daniel (37:04.964) No, just kidding. Which is a massively heavy game and I've never played it. No, Rummy Cube. Rummy Cube is a big holiday game. Yeah, and you know, and again, it's very much this kind of sense of a gin rummy kind of game, but you play it with tiles and you're trying to get runs or sequence. I forget exactly what they're called. Runs or sets, runs or sets. And you can play off of each other in a common table. And yeah, yeah. Kevin (37:09.588) Right. Oh, Rummy Cube. Rummy Cube is great. Yep. Kevin (37:27.074) Mm-hmm. Kevin (37:31.03) Yeah, you can replace like that. Love that little idea, yeah. Daniel (37:34.696) and you have to rearrange them. And sometimes it's like this, almost like a complex Rube Goldberg machine where you have to, if I move this over here and this goes over here and this goes over here and it can be, it's so much fun. Rummikube is a lot of fun. And we actually play it digitally sometimes with my mom too. There's a nice iPad implementation of it that you can play across the miles of people. So Rummikube is my first one. Next one is an old card game. Kevin (37:42.661) Mm-hmm. Kevin (37:49.674) Yeah, Rummy Cube's a great one. Oh. Uh-huh. Daniel (38:04.6) old German card game called Six Nymphed. Six Nymphed. Yeah, I think it's for sale. It's in the US. They have put it. I think they've recently changed the name for it in the US to Take Five. But either Six Nymphed and I am empty or Take Five. It's just a great game and you can play that up to 10 people. Super fast. Everybody plays one card at the same time and then you have to resolve the cards around the table. Kevin (38:08.263) Okay, I've seen that one. Kevin (38:18.008) Okay. Daniel (38:33.548) And it sounds, when you first played, it feels like total chaos, like it's totally luck-based. And for the longest time we said, this is a total luck-based game. But then we had a wonderful, well, we had a wonderful exchange student from Belgium, Antoine, lived with us. And he told us that he grew up playing this game with his grandma. And by golly, he won every game. So we think they're- Kevin (38:46.134) Then Kristen kept winning. Kevin (38:56.334) Mm-hmm. Kevin (38:59.778) Really? Daniel (39:02.016) There's probably more strategy to it than we think, but it is a lot of fun, six-nimped. You have to, yeah, everyone puts down their, the cards are one to 100, or like one to 104, something like that. Everybody puts down their card, one card from their hand, you have 10 cards in your hand randomly. You turn them over, you have to put them in order in these rows following some rules. And if you ever place this sixth card in a row, you have to take the whole row. Kevin (39:05.694) Is it matching cards like numbers or suits or? Kevin (39:24.587) Mm-hmm. Daniel (39:30.1) which gives you points against you. You don't unpoint, the lowest point wins. And it's just a great game and super fun, super easy, great. Speaking of super fun and easy, that's kind of the theme for my games. Strike is another one. Strike is a dice game. And it's probably one of the better knowns of the games on my list. Strike... Kevin (39:37.066) That's cool. I don't know that one. Kevin (39:48.446) Okay? Strike. Daniel (39:58.32) You just take a handful of dice and you're just chucking these dice into this kind of arena in the middle that's formed out of the box. And super easy, super fun, super luck-based, but it just goes so fast. Nobody minds that it's luck-based. And you're trying to eliminate your opponents. You're the last person. It's so much push your luck. It's just push your luck dice game. A lot of fun. Strike is a great game. Kevin (40:02.748) Mm-hmm. Kevin (40:26.979) I don't know that one. That sounds great. Dice are fun. Daniel (40:29.221) Now, it's a lot of fun. Dieter Nussle, I believe is the... I just say that it is the designer name, because Strike is a common name. If you search for this game Strike by Dieter Nussle, is the designer name, N-U-U-B-L-O-T, and then that German double S thing, L-E. Kevin (40:34.028) is cute. Kevin (40:47.158) Deidre with an umlaut. Aal five, Deidre with an umlaut, Aal five. I'm trying to do like the voice in a store sometimes you hear. Paging Dr. Umlaut, paging, page. I love you. Daniel (40:48.744) That's right. That's right. All right. Daniel (40:56.796) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you were about to say an umlaut omelette. An omelette. An umlaut omelette would be, that would be, we should dispel omelette with an umlaut. And umlaut. An umlaut. Anyway. Kevin (41:10.145) There's someone is it top secret it's the guys that made airplane I think it's in top secret, but he's trying to learn German and one of the phrases is there's sauerkraut in my leader hose He's just saying nobody would put sauerkraut and leader hose Daniel (41:20.692) Hahaha Daniel (41:29.101) That's so great. I love it. Kevin (41:29.998) It's so dumb, it's so dumb. Have you ever worn Lederhosen? Daniel (41:36.424) I've never worn leaderhose, and have you? Kevin (41:37.718) I haven't either. No. Daniel (41:40.7) You know, it just occurs to me as we're talking about it. I just know enough German to be dangerous in it, but is it, I think, does Liederhosen literally mean singing pants? Kevin (41:51.094) Thinking? Daniel (41:52.044) singing like leader is songs and hosin or pants is it song pants No, that can't be right. That can't be right I'm gonna look it up And oh no, it's later hosin Which is what which is leather pants leather pants, it's not leader hosin which would be Kevin (41:54.089) song. Kevin (42:03.239) Oh, Daniel's gonna flick it up. I don't know. Kevin (42:12.2) Oh yeah! Daniel (42:18.632) singing pants, but lederhosen is leather pants. However, I would fully support the idea of developing something called singing pants, pants that you put on to sing. I would wear singing pants. Lederhosen, I think, I think maybe traditionally made out of leather. I don't know. But lederhosen means leather pants. Lederhosen, which doesn't exist, would mean song pants, which I would fully support the development of. Kevin (42:18.95) Oh, that one eye will always get you in trouble. Kevin (42:29.454) singing pants so it means leather pants but they're not pants and they're not leather aren't they it's the stocking okay Kevin (42:45.439) I sing! Daniel (42:47.524) Okay, all right. My fourth one, and this is not in any order, but just the fourth one I want to name is Skyjo. S-K-Y-J-O. Skyjo, have you heard of this game? Kevin (42:50.762) Number four. Kevin (43:00.078) Okay. Dope, but I'm hoping it's a GI Joe adjacent. Dang it. Daniel (43:06.24) I'm afraid it's not, but it would be good. Sky Joe is SKYJO, it's a card game. I've heard it's very similar to a game that you play with traditional deck of cards called golf, but I've never played golf. But you have a grid of 12 cards in front of you. Most of them are upside down, some of them are turned up. They go from value of negative two to 12, I believe. And like, Kevin (43:20.398) Okay. Daniel (43:36.208) 6-nimp, you want the least number of points at the end. The lowest score wins. And at various times during the game, you have to flip over cards in front of you. You replace the cards with cards from the common deck or cards from a deck where you know the card. And sometimes you have to replace them without knowing what you're replacing. And so that, and that can create for some fun. You're trying to be the first person to go out. And sometimes you catch other people before they flipped over their cards. Kevin (44:05.08) Hmm. Daniel (44:06.389) So they may get stuck with like a 12. And it's like, oh no, I got stuck with a 12. And then there's this cool little twist that if you get three numbers in a row, you get to eliminate that entire row, that entire column. But it's a lot of fun. Sky Joe, S-K-Y-J-O, a great card game that we have enjoyed. My kids, my mom, Kristen and me, Sky Joe is good. And then finally. Kevin (44:18.889) Uh... Sky Joe. Daniel (44:30.644) There are probably two great games that we enjoy across the generations over the holidays. The first one is RemiCube, especially Enjoy. And the second one is this, my last one by list, Quirkl. Have you heard of Quirkl? Yeah. Kevin (44:43.594) Right. I have, I've not played it much. We had the kids have it. Yes. Daniel (44:48.36) Yeah, Quirkl by Susan McKinley Ross. It's this great chunky wooden tile game with different symbols of different colors on them. And again, kind of like Rummy Cube, you have this common area in the middle where you're trying to put your tiles together and you have to match and not match by color and by symbol. And it's just great. Quirkl is a fantastic game. Would highly recommend it for a good holiday game. Kevin (45:11.383) Hmm. Kevin (45:15.926) I think those are great suggestions. Wow. Daniel (45:17.78) Thanks. So I like how you had some more modern ones and some older ones I think was Kevin (45:24.419) No, I list for see I just knew you were gonna go for a telestration. So that's why I thought I'd do charades Daniel (45:29.332) Well, you know, honestly, I, Teletraations should be on the list because we played a lot, but I was just, I feel like I talk about Teletraations so much. I wanted to try to go for some different ones I haven't mentioned, but yeah, that's a great one too. Kevin (45:39.415) Right. Kevin (45:43.05) Yeah, yeah, TELESTRATIONS would be our gold winner, because that's a great game. Because it's just good, silly fun. Daniel (45:48.733) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's it. Whatever holidays you may be celebrating or not celebrating this season, to all of our listeners and viewers, we hope that they're happy and we hope you get to play a lot of games and we appreciate you listening so much. It is such a joy and a gift that you tune in or watch. We really appreciate all of you. Kevin, how can people get connected to us? Kevin (45:56.052) Excellent. Kevin (46:21.582) Borgainfaith.com will get you to a lot of our information. And we have a newsletter. If you follow that, you can subscribe there. And it's just a bi-weekly newsletter. We give some thoughts and ideas and ramblings. And so that's the weeks that we don't drop a podcast. So that's a great way, as well as on Instagram. Our Instagram name is... Liederhosen. Song Pants. What was the correct one? Lederhosen? Is correct. But we go with Liederhosen. Song Pants. Daniel (46:48.696) Liederhosen, that's right. Songpants. Ha ha ha. Daniel (46:54.732) Lederhosen is leather pants, which is the correct one. Yeah. Lederhosen. We're actually Board Game Faith on Instagram, but we need to do Lederhosen. I'm going to try to get that one too. Yeah. In our link tree at Board Game Faith, you can find all those links for board, for newsletter, things like that. If you listen to us and if you wouldn't mind thinking about rating and reviewing the podcast wherever you watch it or listen to it, that'd be great. That helps the algorithms recommend the podcast to more people too. So. Kevin (47:02.958) but we need to do leader house. Yeah, that'd be good. That would be good. Kevin (47:19.104) Mm-hmm. Kevin (47:23.51) Yeah, and we have video on YouTube or audio through your podcast player. So whichever one you listen to, totally fine. But just want you to know we're also in that mirror universe. If that also works for you. Daniel (47:36.284) Yep, yep, great. Well, Kevin, thank you so much. And all of our listeners, thank you so much. It's great spending time with you and happy holidays. Bye-bye. Kevin (47:44.618) Yep. Bye bye.