Daniel: teaching on the theology of play. On this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Kevin, every week I look forward to like virtually jamming with you to our theme song. It's a highlight Kevin: brief, Daniel: of the... Kevin: but it's potent. Daniel: It's brief. It's brief but potent. Kevin: full of possibilities. Brief possibilities. Daniel: Yeah, brief possibilities. It's Kevin: Brief Daniel: brief Kevin: possibilities Daniel: possibilities. Kevin: of joy. Daniel: The name of my autobiography too. Brief possibilities. Kevin: Possibly on my tombstone. Daniel: That's right. Well, Kevin: No. Daniel: welcome everybody to board game faith. It is great to have you here. Thanks for tuning in. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin: and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel: And Kevin, it is great to see you again, to be talking with you. How are you doing today? Kevin: I'm good, I'm really good Daniel, thanks. Yes, and you? Clean Daniel: Good, Kevin: shaven, Daniel: good. Kevin: sparkly and clean shaven. Daniel: Well, you're kind. Yes, for those of you who are watching this on the YouTubes, you may notice that I've shaved if you've watched this before. So I have a love-hate relationship with facial hair, right? With mustache Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: and beard. I'll... I'm shaving for a while, then I'll think, you know, that just looks weird. And then I'll grow out a beard and mustache. And then I think, you know, that just like accelerates the old man look. I need to shave it off. And then I'm just, I'm very Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: fickle, very fickle. But you seem to be, you seem to have decided on the beard and you're just going with it. Cause it Kevin: I Daniel: looks Kevin: think Daniel: good Kevin: I'm Daniel: on Kevin: used Daniel: you. Kevin: to it, but I Daniel: It Kevin: know Daniel: looks Kevin: what you... Daniel: good on Kevin: Well, Daniel: you. Kevin: thank you, thank you. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: It definitely is a bit of work, like maintenance. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: You know? Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: So, yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes you're just like, I just want to tear it off. Daniel: Yeah. And you're, and you, and it's still like dark, right? When I grew up, my beard now, it's just, it's mostly gray. And I just, I feel like. Kevin: So, from this angle, it's getting grayer. Daniel: Yeah, okay, okay. Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: Well, yes, regardless of whether Kevin: appearances. Daniel: you sport facial hair or not, we are grateful that you're listening today, dear listeners, Kevin: That's right. Daniel: and we're grateful to have you here. And today we're gonna be discussing, teaching the theology of play or teaching about the theology. of play. And this is something that we kind of dance around every episode, really, Kevin, don't we? But this episode is specifically about a very kind of intentional focused experience of teaching on the theology of play. Kevin: Yes, although to be honest, I was fortunate enough to get to teach a class kind of about religion and board games. And we'll put a link to that above if you're curious. Daniel: Absolutely. Kevin: So Daniel: Yeah, we Kevin: yeah, Daniel: had a really Kevin: but Daniel: good episode on that a few Kevin: we Daniel: episodes Kevin: did. Daniel: back. Kevin: We Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: did. And we've learned a lot since then. And you've learned a lot since then. And I've learned a lot since then. So I'm really curious to see what new stuff came about, as well as you were at a retreat setting versus a non-compliant 19-year-old, so it's very different Daniel: Hehehehe Kevin: type of, yeah, non-compliant pastors really. Daniel: Well, but I'm glad you made that comparison though. I mean, you're right. Because yeah, so we've had a couple of episodes now about teaching on the theology of play. And you're exactly right. Yeah, yours from the perspective of a college professor, like you said, teaching a class and then you're right. Then today I'm discussing, like you have alluded to, kind of it was a voluntary spiritual retreat for church folks, mostly pastors, but also some lay folks too. Kevin: Right? Yeah, yeah. So tell me about it. Tell me about the context. Where did you all go for this retreat? Daniel: Yeah, well, thank you. So this was a five day, four night retreat, though I only taught for three days, at Glen Erie Castle in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Kevin: How far is that? Daniel: Well, I flew from here where I am in Missouri. I understand it probably would have been like a 10 hour drive, which I know is not an answer to the question in terms of distance, but in terms of average driving speed on American highways, I think it's about a 10 hour drive from here, but Kevin: Gotcha. Daniel: I flew, Kevin: So is that Daniel: yeah. Kevin: common to have a retreat from Missouri go to Colorado? Do you Daniel: Good Kevin: lack Daniel: question. Kevin: confidence in your own home state is part of the question. Daniel: That is kind of a very Missouri thing to, Kevin: is it? Daniel: but no, actually this is unusual. This was the fourth in a series of spiritual retreats that our denominational conference office was sponsoring with the Missouri Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church. And all of the other... previous spiritual retreats, these spiritual formation retreats, had been held in Missouri, at retreat centers Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: in Missouri. But this was the fourth one, and at least this was the last one in their original design. We're hoping there'll be some more, but right now it's the last one planned. So they thought they would end this series of four Kevin: That Daniel: kind Kevin: makes Daniel: of on Kevin: sense. Daniel: a really special note. Yeah, so Kevin: Right. Daniel: we went to this beautiful retreat center outside of, it's on the edge of the Garden of the Gods, and it's this beautiful castle. surrounded by just beautiful, Kevin: Who Daniel: beautiful Kevin: runs the Daniel: estate. Kevin: retreat center? Is Daniel: It Kevin: it a church? Daniel: is owned and operated by, I didn't realize this until we got there, owned and operated by the Navigators, which is a publishing house and also for a Christian publishing house. And also run some, I think there were some summer camps and they didn't have other activities too besides the publishing house. But they perhaps might be. best known, or at least one of the reasons they're specially known today is the message translation of the Bible, Eugene Peterson, Kevin: Okay, yep. Daniel: was published by the navigators. So they Kevin: I really Daniel: own... Kevin: dislike that translation, by the way. No, Daniel: You don't like that translation? Kevin: it's so corny and I don't trust one person. Daniel: I thought it was remarkable Kevin: I haven't Daniel: that Kevin: spent a lot of time with it. Daniel: one Kevin: That's Daniel: person could do it. Yeah, yeah. Kevin: a snap judgment. Daniel: No, I just say, I have to admit, I liked it for many years. For many years, it was the go-to translation for me just because it was a kind of a fresh take on things. But I'm not quite into it as much anymore Kevin: I Daniel: for a Kevin: see. Daniel: variety of reasons. But... Kevin: I guess here's the thing, it's fine as something on your desk or something to read, but I don't like it in church. It's just, it's too jarring for my mind. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: Not that it has to be a fancy translation, but Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: it's just a little too whimsical, it seems to me. Daniel: Mm-hmm. I could Kevin: But Daniel: see that, Kevin: did Daniel: yeah. Kevin: you know there's a new translation for the NRS feed? There's an NRS VUE or something? Daniel: Yes, Kevin: It's like a slightly Daniel: I've heard that. Kevin: updated, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: yeah, it's kinda Daniel: yeah, Kevin: cool. Daniel: that's cool. I haven't gotten a copy yet. I need to check that out or copy whatever you call a digital version of something now. Yeah, Kevin: Right. Daniel: yeah, that's cool. So yeah, it was great. And it was surrounded by mountains and hikes. And so we stayed in a little lodge next to the castle. There was about 33 of us. And again, mostly United Methodist pastors, but also some lay folks as well. And lay folks for those who are unfamiliar with church jargon, that just means church people who are not pastors. And in other words, normal people, Kevin: Right, right, Daniel: not the weird Kevin: right. Daniel: clergy people, like me, like us. And so we would have... For three of those days, we had two hour teaching sessions, which is the parts that I taught on the theology of play. But then there was also times when we would meet with spiritual directors. There were spiritual directors there and that was really helpful, really meaningful. We also had worship experiences. We had a wonderful worship leader there as well. And then went on hikes. And at night, Kevin, there might've been some impromptu board games, unscheduled board games. Some of us may have packed board games in our suitcases. Kevin: In fact, some Daniel: Oh. Kevin: of us may not have brought any clothes because we just brought board games. Daniel: I was, Kevin: You're just wearing Daniel: I was, I was, Kevin: the katan box Daniel: that's Kevin: as you Daniel: exactly Kevin: walked around. Daniel: right. That's, that's really all you need. That's all you need. Kevin: He couldn't lean in the desk because it would put a dent in his box. Daniel: That's exactly, Kevin: Had to sort Daniel: yeah, Kevin: of Daniel: yeah. Kevin: very, had good posture. Wow, that is awesome. So that was six hours really, three two-hour sessions. That's Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: pretty amazing. Daniel: yeah, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: thank Kevin: so Daniel: you, Kevin: how did Daniel: thank Kevin: you break Daniel: you. Kevin: down that time? How did you Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: structure Daniel: thanks. Kevin: it? Daniel: Well, and I should let you know here at the beginning, I also acknowledged you over the course of those three days as the silent partner in the lessons and said Kevin: the Daniel: that Kevin: silent investor. Daniel: the things that we talked about, actually, I think I called you the invisible voice, but the things that I talked about were things that you and I had kind of hashed out in this podcast and over... and in conversations outside this podcast over the last year and a half. So please know you deservedly were a big part of that as well. But yeah, so over the course of three days, I broke it down. The first day we called introduction to play and why play is an important part of human spiritual experience. And then the second day was barriers to play. So, you know, why are we reluctant? Why is it hard to play? What stands in the way of play? And then the third day was how we can move toward a more playful life. Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: Given that play is important spiritually, but given that it's hard for us to say yes to play, what were some concrete steps we could take to move toward a more playful life? That Kevin: Are Daniel: was Kevin: you Daniel: kind Kevin: familiar Daniel: of the arch Kevin: with Daniel: of Kevin: the Daniel: it. Kevin: idea of three acts and creative writing? Because that's what you've done here. Daniel: Okay, maybe not Kevin: Like you set it up and then you have the essential conflict or question and then there's resolution. Daniel: Okay, okay. Kevin: Yeah, yeah, Daniel: Maybe Kevin: that's Daniel: so. Kevin: awesome. Daniel: I didn't really think about that, but I guess that was kind of, yeah, the setup, the conflict, and the resolution. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: Huh. Kevin: yeah, hero's journey. Wow, that's awesome. So who are some of your major conversation partners here besides the invisible one? Daniel: Yeah, like different like, Kevin: You will not see me, but you will feel me. Daniel: Kevin is always present. Kevin: Ha ha Daniel: Um, Kevin: ha. Addy smells slightly funny. Daniel: what is that? Kevin: Smells Daniel: That, Kevin: of fennel. Daniel: what is that smell? Do I smell awesomeness? Kevin Kevin: It was Daniel: must Kevin: so awesome. Daniel: be nearby. The smell of awesomeness and hope. Um. Kevin: It's like a brand new Superman cape. He just sort of crisp and smells like... Daniel: Oh, oh, to Kevin. Kevin: Ode Daniel: Little Kevin: to Kevin, Kryptonian Daniel: hints, Kevin: Fabric. Daniel: hints of awesomeness with undertones of, um, Kryptonite. Yeah. Kryptonite. Kevin: Right. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Friendly Daniel: Um, Kevin: masculinity, not toxic, Daniel: friendly bet. Yeah, Kevin: just friendly. Daniel: that's Kevin: This Daniel: right. I like it. Kevin: happy Daniel: I would, Kevin: masculinity. Daniel: I, Kevin: Ted Daniel: I would Kevin: Lasso Daniel: buy it. Kevin: smell. Daniel: The Ted Lasso smell. I would buy it. Um, so yeah, so the, you know, the, um, There were a number of authors and books that I especially drew from, apart from Kevin, of course. But Bernard Suits, the grasshopper, was probably the major one, but that Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: his was kind of the thread that ran throughout all three days. But also Jane McGonigal's Reality is Broken. By Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: the way, dear listeners, if this is your first time listening, you may be interested to know we discussed those books. in depth in previous episodes. If you're interested in learning more about either of those books, please go to our website Kevin: week Daniel: and Kevin: above. Daniel: you can, yep, you can find discussions of those books. Also, we discussed Jürgen Moltmann's theology of play, which we also have Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: a discussion of in previous episode. Abraham. Joshua Heschel's The Sabbath, which is not a book that we have discussed yet, but that might be a good book for us to discuss at some Kevin: We probably Daniel: point. Kevin: should, yeah. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Those were the primary books that I drew from, kind of conversation partners, but I also discussed a little bit. We discussed Martin Luther King Jr., some comments from him over the course of of the three days, I brought in the keynote lecture from the play conference that I attended a little bit over a year ago, the national conference on the value of play. So yeah, those were some of the primary conversation partners. And then, above all the, well, in scripture, we talked a fair amount about different Bible passages as well. And Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: then we Kevin: What Daniel: did Kevin: were Daniel: a lot Kevin: some Daniel: of Kevin: main Daniel: small Kevin: ones Daniel: group Kevin: there? Daniel: discussion. Yeah. Genesis, for example, Genesis 3, reflecting on the story of the, what's sometimes called the original sin, though that's not the term the Bible really ever uses for it, but Adam and Eve and the serpent in Genesis chapter 3. Discussed that, discussed also 1 Corinthians chapter 1, contrasting God's wisdom and God's foolishness. It's kind of a contrast between Sometimes a playful life looks foolish in the eyes of the world. And we discussed the Sermon on the Mount at some point as well. So yeah, just different scripture passages. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: And then we did a lot of small group discussion and the participants offered their own insights and we really built a lot of what they were talking about there too. They really had a lot of great insights. Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: So yeah, those were Kevin: And Daniel: the Kevin: you Daniel: most. Kevin: played some games as well. Daniel: We played some games, yeah. The first day we played just one. And just one, which I've played with large groups before and they always seemed to enjoy it, but it was hard. I had trouble thinking about how to do this with 33, 35 Kevin: That is Daniel: people. Kevin: the hard bit. Yes, yes. Daniel: So, you know, I found something that actually worked. Online, I found packs of, 12 packs. of dry erase name tags that you can put Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: on clips with an each name tag came with a dry erase marker. And so they were made designed to be rewritable name tags, you know, they were just placards that you would, you would buy separate clips to put on the top. So I got these 12 packs of dry erase name tags and dry erase markers. So there was 24 items total in each pack. And I got three of those and they was pretty cheap. So that was a And so instead of using the just one little dry erase card holders, they're just these little like two by three, two and a half by three and a half dry erase cards that you could use. And it was a really cheap way for a large number of us to play just one. And I divided us up into like groups of seven and that worked well. I also played Wits and Wagers with the group because I had heard... that was good for large groups to do. That happens at board game conferences a lot. And I'm sure the people who know how to do it, know how to do it well. For whatever reason, I kind of struggled a little bit Kevin: Hmm Daniel: doing it with a large group. So I'm not sure, I don't think I would use that again for me personally, just because I don't quite seem to know how to do it for the large group as well. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I think if I did it again, I might break the group up and do play some version of the mind. I thought that might be a little bit more fun. And then on the final day, I had people do simplified character creation sheets as if they're playing Dungeons and Dragons. And that, yeah, which is something I borrowed from a previous guest, Mandy Hutchinson. For those of you who, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: another previous episode, if you want to look back and hear more about that from Mandy Hutchinson. So yeah, Kevin: And how Daniel: so Kevin: did Daniel: let's Kevin: the Daniel: roll Kevin: character Daniel: the games. Kevin: creation go? And I'm not familiar with what she's got there. Daniel: Yeah, it was, so Mandy Hutchinson, for those of us who may be unfamiliar with her, she is a board game reviewer and content creator about board games, but on the internet, wonderful, a former, a previous guest here, a really neat person, but she's also an educator during the day. And right now she is educating adults and does adult training programs. And she shared that one of the adult training programs that she does is, doing character creation sheets for like role playing. And whereas an intentional way of getting people to think about what skills do you need to meet this challenge? What skills do you possess in meeting this challenge? Kevin: Right. Daniel: And what are your growing edges? What are your weaknesses? What allies do you need? How can friends help you in your, where maybe you are not as strong? And what equipment do you need to face these challenges? And what's your class? Like what's your role? Are you a healer or whatever? And so, and then draw a picture of your character. And so that's what we did. I made this kind of simplified character creation sheet. And the challenge was, this was our closing activity, was to encourage people to think about what do you need to go back into the world leading a more playful life? How Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: can you lead Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: a more playful life? And so I was trying to encourage people to think about what strengths do they have already to help lead a playful life? What are their, what challenges do they face kind of internally and externally? to lead a more playful life. Who are your allies? Who can help you lead a more playful life? What equipment do you have? Draw a picture of your playful life avatar, avatar self. And so yeah, Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: that's Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: kind of how we tackled that. So thanks to Mandy for the good idea on how to do that. Kevin: But you felt like it didn't go over very well, is that correct? In Daniel: Well, Kevin: some of your comments Daniel: yeah, Kevin: you made. Daniel: that was interesting. Somewhat, I don't think I gave them enough time. So that was Kevin: Okay. Daniel: part of it. I was running out of time. It was the last day. Someone had the good suggestion. My good friend, Chris, who listens to the podcast, so hey, Chris, Kevin: Hello Chris. Daniel: he had the good suggestion that maybe that would have been a good thing to pass out at the end of day two so that people could have had overnight to work on it and then bring it back on day three. So it wasn't Kevin: Right. Daniel: quite so hurried. But also, this surprised me, that was the activity we did that probably some people were the most resistant to. And I don't mean that in a mean way, and I think they said this too, that it just, for some people it was probably the most foreign to how their brains are wired and how their hearts were Kevin: Right, Daniel: wired. Kevin: so it needs Daniel: And Kevin: more Daniel: it was, Kevin: of a setup kind of thing. Daniel: yeah, yeah. Whereas, you know, the D&D players who were in the group, they were like, oh yeah, I know how to do this. And they could whip Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: it out in like five Kevin: this Daniel: minutes. Kevin: is gonna be fun. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, but for some people, for whom this was a completely foreign concept, it was a real struggle to try Kevin: So it'd be Daniel: to do Kevin: interesting Daniel: that. Kevin: to talk with Mandy how she couches and sets it up. Because I can, yeah, I can definitely see that. That if you're, if you don't understand the value or just don't know what you're doing, then it may seem kind of weird or nonsensical. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Because Daniel: yeah. Kevin: it has to be placed in its frame. And that's Daniel: That's right. Kevin: the tricky thing. It's kind of like handing someone Monopoly pieces and they're like, so what do I do with these? Like, then it doesn't make sense without the game structure. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So you have to Daniel: yeah. Kevin: give them something of that board game framing. Like this is where your top hat goes, right? Daniel: That's a good point. Yeah, framing Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: it within the larger narrative of what are role playing games and how do they work and which I did not do. Kevin: Or even maybe playing a sample version so then they can see, okay, this is why I want the archery skill. Daniel: Yeah, that's Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: a good Kevin: I don't Daniel: idea. Kevin: know. I'm just, of course, just riffing here. I don't know what I'm talking about. But Daniel: No, Kevin: I can Daniel: I like Kevin: see that. It seemed like... And of course, this is anything. It seems great on paper. Do you know it's gonna work? No, you execute the play and then you revise and you iterate. So Daniel: That's Kevin: good Daniel: exactly Kevin: for you Daniel: right. Kevin: for trying this and being inspired and wanting to check this out. And now you know how to iterate and innovate Daniel: Well, thanks. Kevin: based on Daniel: Thank Kevin: that Daniel: you. Kevin: feedback, Daniel: Thank you. Kevin: right? Daniel: Thank you. Yeah. What I'm just so grateful for the leaders of the conference and their kind invitation to Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: kind of allow, allow me to give Kevin: I have to Daniel: a Kevin: admit, Daniel: try on Kevin: I'm Daniel: that Kevin: probably Daniel: and to learn Kevin: a Daniel: from that. Kevin: bad, I'm the one that can be like, well, I don't wanna do this. I don't know why, there's a bit of me that's a, I'm not really a rebel unless sometimes in that group setting where you're supposed to share, I'm someone Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: who's like, well, I don't feel like sharing. So I don't know. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Maybe there Daniel: yeah. Kevin: are too many Kevins in the audience. I don't know. I, Daniel: Thanks for watching! Kevin: yeah, I sometimes balk at those things. And I'm very moody, I think, yeah. Daniel: Huh, yeah. Kevin: I don't know. Daniel: Yeah, that's interesting. I can understand that, yeah. I wonder why that is, whether it feels more of an obligation than a... Kevin: Sometimes it can feel, and this is me, but it's an obligation or it's an expectation, but it's also, you know, I guess if I'm not expecting it or I don't have anything to add, then you end up... it can be kind of a... but we have to fill out this... what is it? The big sheets of paper that get torn off? Like, we have to put something on here, but nobody really knows what to put. Daniel: Right, right, the flip charts and the... Kevin: the flip charts and you're like, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I don't know. Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: Waterfalls, Daniel: yeah. Kevin: right? Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So you kind Daniel: what? Kevin: of get stuck. Daniel: Yeah, don't, yeah. Don't go chasing the waterfalls. Kevin: I've, um, never... Yeah, that is a weird mixed metaphor, isn't it? Daniel: Don't go chasing waterfalls. Yeah, I've never really Kevin: Because Daniel: thought Kevin: they don't Daniel: about Kevin: move. Daniel: it. Kevin: I guess it's really more of finding them? Daniel: I would be interested to find the history of the phrase, don't go chasing waterfalls. Kevin: I think it Daniel: Maybe Kevin: means Daniel: our listeners Kevin: don't... Daniel: would know. Kevin: I think the song, to be honest, I think the song is kind of deep. It's about don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Like, don't go looking for perfection, like the perfect waterfall. Daniel: Okay, Kevin: Maybe Daniel: okay. Kevin: that's what it is. It's like a travel... It's like the gnome traveling the world looking for the perfect waterfall. So don't Daniel: Well. Kevin: go looking for the perfect waterfall. Daniel: Okay, Kevin: Just stick... Daniel: okay. Kevin: yeah. Daniel: Please Kevin: But you Daniel: stick Kevin: really Daniel: to Kevin: don't chase Daniel: the Kevin: a waterfall because they can't run away. Daniel: That's true, that's true. Unless you're like chasing them like in a barrel, like at Niagara Falls, or like you're going and chasing them like that. Kevin: I've got him! I remember Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: reading some novel thing about the Roman emperors and one of the crazy ones, Nero or something, decided to declare war on Poseidon and he sent his troops out to the water's edge and had them fire arrows into the ocean Daniel: Whoa. Kevin: and then declared his victory over Poseidon. It's all these poor soldiers are like... Gotta do what the boss says." So they fired their arrows into Daniel: That's Kevin: the ocean Daniel: wild, Kevin: and Daniel: really. Kevin: they defeated Poseidon. And then he had a big party for four days. Daniel: That's interesting. Wow, wow. Kevin: I guess it's probably a tall tale from his reign, who knows. Anyway, all right, so character creation. Chasing waterfalls. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Experimentation, Daniel: yeah. Kevin: good for you, good for you. Daniel: Well, thanks, Kevin: You tried Daniel: thanks. Kevin: that. And you got into, what else on day one? Daniel: Yes, Kevin: I guess more specifically. Daniel: sure, sure. So yeah, so on. On day one, one of the very first things we started with was this idea of, what do we talk about when we talk about play? And we started with Bernard Suit's definition. You know, the play is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles. And that really, that's probably one of the things the group resonated the most with, or with Kevin: So Daniel: which Kevin: good. Daniel: the group really seemed to resonate. Yeah. And then we returned to that again and again over the course of those three days. And so... So I said, that's what we're talking about. We talk about, you know, play. And then I talked about my own kind of journey into play and this, my interest into this. Started with board games and the Christmas gift back in a few years ago. And kind of looking more into that and reading more and you know, and learning more about kind of the the presence, really when we're talking about games, we're talking about play, because games and play are the same thing. You know that when you play, you're doing a game, when you do a game, you're playing. Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: And then discovering more about how people have, these theologians and thinkers and philosophers throughout history have been drawn to this idea of the deep spiritual value of play. and how play is something that has been a part of the human experience, including adult human experience, from the very beginning of time, you know, and how it has these deep spiritual benefits. And talked about this, you know, that quote from Bernard Suetz when he says, play is our salvation, you know, and Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: how from, we talk about the quote from Jurgen Moltmann, he says, you know, play is how liberation happens, you know. And then we eventually got around to this idea from Parker Palmer, a Quaker theologian, a Quaker thinker who talks about play being a sign of our calling, that how we played as children is a sign of who God made us to be today. And so yeah, that was kind of the, that was the overall. kind of trajectory of day one. And just thinking about encouraging people to reflect on the role of play in their own lives, specifically as after they played that game of just one, how games Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: help us to be present. When we were playing just one, we weren't worried about the future, we weren't Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: thinking about the past, our past regrets. Because I asked them, what were you thinking about during that time? No one was thinking about the mistake they made at church last week and nobody was thinking about their worries Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: about... the church for next week. They were just thinking about in this moment, you know, and how it's this tool for helping us be present to each other and to this moment. And how it kind of gave us a sense of agency in these moments. You know, we felt like we were overcoming an obstacle, right? But it was a voluntary Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: obstacle and it was an unnecessary obstacle, but it was an obstacle. And so that brought us into this idea of play as grace. you know, maybe that's another name for experiencing grace, where everyone's accepted, everyone is included. Really, anyone who's excluded is because they exclude themselves, you know. Kevin: And this day resonated, sounds like. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, at least to me, it sounds like this day connected with people. Um, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: at least I felt like it was, I felt good about it. Yeah. Kevin: Mm-hmm. And day two you shifted to barriers where ways that we You know, this is so great if we all played as kids and we like to play Why don't we play and Daniel: Exactly. Kevin: you got into a bit more history here, right? And so what did you explore? Daniel: Right, right, yeah. Exactly right, we said, so if play is so great, why is it a challenge for us? And I began by talking about Bernard Suetz, the Grasshopper a little bit more in depth, and talking about this dream that the Grasshopper has in the book. And again, Dear listeners, you can go back and listen to those episodes on Board Game Faith if you want to hear more. But this dream the grasshopper has of, he realizes that everything is play in this dream. And he goes out into the world as an evangelist to tell everyone, convince everyone, the dentist and the violin player and the plumber and the custodian and the carpenter and the pilot and the CEO to convince everyone that what we do is play. Everything during the day is play. And that when he convinces people of that, they instantly disappear because that's how resistant they are to it. to this idea. And so I talk about, you know, why is that? Why is that? And so we discussed why is that? Why are we resistant to play? And then we did, yeah, we went into some historical roots at least one historical route and the theological route. And, you know, I told people then as I, you know, tell people, as I will say now, you know, I'm certainly no expert on this. Kevin, I think you're more of an expert on this than I am. But, you know, that... at least in my reading and my understanding, you know, at least one route or one contribution to this idea of theology of play, that play is a barrier to play, is can be traced back to the Reformation in some ways, you know, because what we see throughout most of human history is the play is an acceptable part of adult life until we kind of... But today we don't, right? Today we think that's just for kids. And so we think, you know, so what happened, right? What happened? And of course, I'm oversimplifying it. You know, there's always been some resistance to it. And even today, there's some openness to it in the adult life. But, and I talk about, you know, that the Reformation, you know, was this movement in Christian history about 500 years ago, where there was the perception, and I'm oversimplifying things, but this perception of, of the church teaching that we earn our salvation. And again, I'm over some of my things and Kevin, you know more about this than I do, but this idea that we earn our salvation, in particular, we earn our salvation by giving money to the church. We pay for these indulgences, right? And this good work, doing these good things earn our salvation. We go to heaven because of that, or we can even earn our salvation for other people who have died by giving to the church. And so the Reformation started as it. in some ways as a counter movement to that saying, you know, we don't earn our salvation. Salvation is God's good gift, free gift, what we call grace, right? But then it seems like there's part of, there's just part of being human where we just, we can't accept that, right? We can't accept that, that our salvation, however we define that, is just entirely God's good gift. We have... Because we're not sure about that, right? Because we don't have anything concrete that we could hold onto to say, oh, here's proof, right? That I'm gonna go to heaven after I die, or however we define salvation. And so pretty quickly they developed this idea of why you can't earn your salvation, but you know what you can do, you can prove your salvation. You can prove that you're a good Christian by doing good works, right? And so this idea that the more you work, the more you contribute, the more you show that you are in God's good graces. And then that developed this idea of the Protestant work ethic, which is kind of then a short line from that to this idea that a person's productivity is tied to their value, right? That our value and worth Kevin: Right. Daniel: in God's eyes is tied to how productive we are. and how that's a dangerous idea. That really it turns people into cogs in a machine. It kind of dehumanizes us. It was used as justification for enslaving people. And it kind of leads to the most corrupt forms of, exploitative forms of economic policy and economics today. And... and how that's a narrative that we have internalized over the last 500 years. And so that's a barrier, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: one barrier to play is we think Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: I'm not valuable as a human being unless I am productive. And so, so if I want to be even more valuable as a human being, I have to be even more productive. And by contrast, play is, takes away my value as a human being. Play is unimportant. Play is even... I talked about Jürgen Moltmann's, what he calls the morality of achievement. So achievement Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: productivity is moral, play is immoral. It's a vice. So anyway, that's kind of a little background. And then I tied that into Genesis 3 and the serpent and Adam and Eve and all of that Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: stuff. Kevin: Wow, that's awesome. Yeah. And of course another bit to add to this is Industrialization that and there's Daniel: Hmm Kevin: some ideas that the Protestant Reformation and Unintentionally created capitalism. There's there's this Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: idea from Max Weber who was a German Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: Economist thinker in the 1800s, but he theorized that As you said that if you're saved by grace what you're not sure what you do So you it may be well how do I know that I'm saved by grace? And the idea is, well, I would act like it, so then you would probably be good with money and good with your time, so it becomes a backwards, as you said, salvation by works. Daniel: Yes. Kevin: And so that desire to... look like you're saved led to saving money and frugality which led to capitalism because then people had money and you didn't want to just make money and spend it you wanted to have more money which i mean everybody's always wanted to do but it the fact that you had capital seeking returns creates capitalism so it's a theory that can't be proved but yeah the industrial revolution is where we see clocks and where we see the idea of a weekend it's where we see the idea of being paid and your labor, not just who you are and what you do. You don't have an identity as a artisan, you're an employee. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: And so it creates this whole concept of... As well as with industrialization, you get travel. So we have trains that have to be synchronized, we get airplanes, which Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: leads to, of course, leisure and vacationing, and the idea that you might go tour the great places of Italy. the great European tour. Go visit Venice because nobody did that till the 1800s. Daniel: Interesting, interesting. Kevin: Yeah, and it's all Daniel: And Max, Kevin: because Daniel: what? Kevin: of boats and leisure and money. So with the with the middle classes and time and leisure and finances you might go get on a boat for four months. Daniel: Hmm. Which in some ways kind of kind of workifies play too in a way. You know, like it's Kevin: Yes. Daniel: like, yeah, yeah. Kevin: And so that's where we get that dilemma that suits and uh Daniel: Jane McGonigal or, Kevin: Multmon and Emigonical Daniel: won't mind. Kevin: too a little bit. Yeah, they're all they're all responding to this idea that we should work hard and then play hard Because they feel like that's a false dynamic Daniel: Right. Kevin: that Daniel: The Kevin: ultimately Daniel: play. Kevin: that will lead you to working hard Daniel: Right, play Kevin: then Daniel: is in service to work. Kevin: Play is in service to work and if you Daniel: Right. Kevin: If you work hard enough, you can get a dream vacation that then will restore you to work hard. And that is a dilemma that will just make you miserable. Daniel: Right, exactly. Kevin: So their response to it is to try to recover something outside of work. Daniel: Right, this idea that play is an end done to itself. It's not in service Kevin: Yes, Daniel: to anything, Kevin: yes, yeah. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: And so yeah, you're right Daniel: In some Kevin: that Daniel: ways. Kevin: we live in this weird time of history and you wish you could go back, right, a thousand years, not only just to have custom-made clothes and walk around in mud, but also just to see how people did do leisure because they were playing chess, as we've seen in Alfonso's book of games from the 1200s or Daniel: Right, Kevin: whatever, Daniel: right, Kevin: right? Daniel: yeah, Kevin: Like people Daniel: yeah. Kevin: are playing games Daniel: Right, Kevin: and... Daniel: right. Kevin: Yeah, we did this in a prior episode. And people always play games, but they didn't punch a clock. But they did Daniel: Right. Kevin: kind of farm and work all day long. Daniel: Right. Kevin: And Daniel: And Kevin: then Daniel: men Kevin: when the Daniel: and women. Kevin: sun went down, they kind of had to go to bed, because they had no light. And they couldn't read and they had no books. So Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: it's weird, Daniel: yeah, Kevin: it's so Daniel: they Kevin: weird. Daniel: weren't they weren't up all night working on their computers and answering Kevin: Right. Daniel: email and yeah the I Kevin: And Daniel: Go Kevin: the Daniel: ahead Kevin: scary bit of history is we can only imagine what their lives were like, because no one wrote it down. We have no Daniel: me. Kevin: video, we have no audio. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: So we try to picture what the normal person's life was in Germany or Pakistan and the 1000s. And to be honest, we really don't know, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: right? Daniel: yeah. Kevin: Like. Daniel: There's so much Kevin: That's so amazing. Daniel: that we don't know that we just Kevin: Yes, and the historians Daniel: speculate. Kevin: don't want to admit that because that would end their whole project. So Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: they're going Daniel: Include Kevin: to confidently Daniel: it in... Kevin: tell you what the medieval period was like. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. The theology is a lot like that too. I think, yeah. Kevin: Don't know if we have to cut that out. They're not gonna like that. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Wait, Daniel: no. Kevin: who's that? Oh, it's the bishop calling. Oh no, Daniel: Sorry. Kevin: we better cut that out. Daniel: Where's your men in black memory eraser there? Kevin: Exactly. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. That was one of my, I know we're kind of going on a tangent, but yeah, that was one of my biggest Kevin: I Daniel: surprises Kevin: love tangents, but yeah. Daniel: in going to seminary was just like, we really. this stuff, we're just kind of, yeah. So speaking of barriers to play, and the book, Alphonse's book of games, and talking about the pictures of adults playing chess, playing, and men and women played together, or pictures of men and women playing, I cited that a little bit during the retreat because, Kevin: too. Daniel: and I think this is a valid point, that I had never thought of before, but some of our retreat participants observed that today, They feel like there are more barriers to play for women than there are for men. Kevin: Huh. Daniel: And now there was some pushback on that or some counter voices. Somebody said, I'm not sure about that, but a lot of folks felt that way. And I thought that was a great observation. I really thought about that. But the point was kind of observation, you know, men today, you know, we can wear board game t-shirts like I'm wearing right now. Right? And Kevin: Mm-hmm Daniel: we can get together. and make podcasts on board games, and we can talk about Star Wars and all this stuff. And society kind of gives us a little bit of a pass on that. But some of the women who were there said, at least in their experience, that maybe they feel like they get a little bit less of a pass from society on that. That at least growing up, especially, they're taught you really need to focus on, and this might've been a generational thing, but focus on kind of the more... productive domestic things, you know, focus on learning to cook and clean and so, and which maybe, Kevin: Have a Daniel: maybe Kevin: Barbie Daniel: it was, Kevin: doll. Yeah, whatever Daniel: right, Kevin: the origins. Daniel: right. Kevin: I mean definitely Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: the board game industry and hobby is dominated by white men There's just Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: no way around it. It's not Daniel: exactly. Kevin: everybody and Daniel: No, no. Kevin: there's a lot of important voices out there So our family plays games blackboard gaming that Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: there's right so it is Daniel: And wonderful Kevin: but Daniel: women's voices Kevin: it but Daniel: too. Kevin: yeah, you just Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: watch the videos I'm sorry Daniel: Exactly. And women's voices in those examples and other women's voices too that Kevin: Yeah, but it's definitely Daniel: for sure like Kevin: dominated Daniel: out. Kevin: by white men. Daniel: Yeah. So I thought that was interesting. Can I go on another theological tangent with you? Kevin: Oh dear. Daniel: Do you mind? Kevin: Hang on, let me see. Okay, yeah, the Daniel: Kevin's Kevin: bishop says it's okay, go ahead, yeah. Daniel: got permission from the bishop. Okay, because Kevin: This Daniel: this Kevin: is Daniel: might Kevin: actually Daniel: border. Kevin: the remote to my AC unit. It's not even, it didn't have a, Daniel: The bishop Kevin: I Daniel: is Kevin: can't Daniel: in Kevin: use Daniel: your Kevin: my phone, Daniel: AC Kevin: it's Daniel: unit? Kevin: my camera. Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: right. Kevin: that's for Daniel: I'm Kevin: my, yeah. Daniel: gonna use this dry erase pen as my pretend phone. Kevin: Okay, that would be a great phone Daniel: It would, a little Kevin: because Daniel: dry Kevin: it would fit Daniel: erase. Kevin: in your pocket. Daniel: It would be, that would be, someone should do that. Yeah. Kevin: Plus you could write with it. Daniel: And you can write with it. That's the one thing phones can't do. I bet that's gotta come now. Kevin: Bye. Daniel: So getting back to this idea of our reluctance to accept salvation as a gift, right? As grace Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and feeling like we have to prove it somehow. And again, and I guess I'm, I'm. I'm kind of being the question of what salvation means. So I just kind of want to set that aside at the moment. Salvation means different things to different people. Kevin: Sure, Daniel: For some people, Kevin: good Daniel: for Kevin: point. Daniel: a lot of people, it's like going to heaven, Kevin: And different Daniel: for other Kevin: things Daniel: people. Kevin: in the Bible, to be honest. Daniel: Exactly, Kevin: Let's be honest, Daniel: yeah, yeah. Kevin: even the Christian tradition isn't agreed on what it means. Daniel: Yeah, so setting aside exactly what that means. But you know, I find that a fascinating concept, like why we are so reluctant as a species to accept that as just a gift that we have nothing to do with. And Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: this, okay, I'm gonna get into the heretical here a little bit. So is the bishop, if you got a call from the bishop, you're a bishop or let me know, okay, anyway. and Kevin: I'm Daniel: dear listeners. Kevin: gonna call the bishop and then just put him on hold Daniel: Okay, okay. You know, by the way, Kevin: Okay, so that way he's busy can't be watching Daniel: some of our listeners may be wondering, what is a bishop? In the United Methodist Church, which is the tradition that Kevin and I are from, from the Christian tradition, we have these people called bishops who are kind of like essentially our bosses, if you're kind of wondering what that is. Anyway. Kevin: My boss is God, Daniel. Daniel: Mmm. I like that. Kevin: You Daniel: I like Kevin: like that? Daniel: that. My Kevin: Sorry, Daniel: boss Kevin: Bishop. Daniel: is I like it. I like it. Kevin: I'm on a mission from God. Peace, brother. Daniel: But so here's the thing, yeah, I liked, it was a good, so here's what I'm making a little bit theoretical, but I have found that sometimes, you know, in the Christian tradition we say, well, you know, to be saved you just have to believe, right? You just have to believe. You gotta believe well enough or strong enough. You gotta believe in just the right way. I kind of find like that's just like another way of earning salvation from work, Kevin: Yes, Daniel: by Kevin: absolutely, Daniel: works, right? Kevin: absolutely. Daniel: Yeah, like it's belief is a work that we do to Kevin: Yes, Daniel: earn salvation. It's Kevin: you Daniel: just Kevin: must Daniel: another Kevin: respond Daniel: way. Kevin: in the appropriate way. Daniel: Exactly, it's just another way of earning salvation via works. So even then, we feel like we have to earn our salvation. Why is that? Why do we feel like why can't we just receive it as a good gift? Do you have Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: any thoughts? I don't know the answer to that, but it's something I wrestle Kevin: It's Daniel: with. Kevin: complicated, yeah, I mean clearly it's a loss of control. It's, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: we're uncertain what to do and make of it. I do think there's some honest questions there about morality, and we do feel like we should respond to salvation with an appropriate lifestyle, and Jesus certainly embraces that type of thinking, I think it's fair Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: to say, because he condemns hypocrites, he condemns the powerful, he embraces, so... there's a basic part of us that knows that salvation should lead to some kind of virtuous living or at least a change of heart. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So I Daniel: yeah. Kevin: think some of it is honest and real as well as, I mean, what are you going to do every day? You feel like, I mean, we can't just lay around all the time. So what do I do? And how does that relate to salvation? So some of it I think is bad answers to genuine questions, Daniel: Right, Kevin: right? Daniel: right. Kevin: And then some of it is a, basic thing of we want to be in control and we are afraid to be vulnerable. Yeah, it's multifaceted. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: I don't know. Daniel: I thought those were good, that's really good. Kevin: You like Daniel: That's Kevin: that? Daniel: really Kevin: Well, Daniel: good. Kevin: I pondered it too. I've pondered it too, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: but Daniel: yeah. Kevin: I do have a little sympathy of, well, shouldn't I do something? I think that Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: that's a fine question, and there are some good answers. Like, yeah, you should. Like, even Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Jesus says you should go make amends with your brother and sister. Daniel: Exactly. You know, Kevin: So you Daniel: and Kevin: should do something, that's not doing Daniel: yeah. Kevin: nothing. It's not quietism where you just sit around waiting. Daniel: Right. One of the most challenging passages in a lot of ways in the Christian scripture, you know, I think it was in Matthew 25 where Jesus says at the end of time, the Son of Man, which is Jesus' most frequent way of referring to himself probably, says, we'll come and we'll separate humanity into the goats and the sheep, right? And the sheep will go on to reward and the goats will go on to... eternal fires Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and the basis for that is what we do, right? And I always find that so haunting, you know, that I mean, for those of us in the Christian division who like to preach, you know, salvation by faith, it's what I mean, at least the basis in that is what we do. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: It's how we treat other people. Kevin: Right. Daniel: And I've heard some Christian commentators say, well, this is referring to, you know, how we Christians read other, or this is, this is for people who are not Christian or whatever. And I Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: think that's kind of a stretch. I don't think Jesus, I'm not sure about that. At least how I read that passage. I, Jesus, Jesus doesn't seem to say, this is, this is for those of you who aren't followers of me. He seems to be saying Kevin: No, that Daniel: it's Kevin: doesn't Daniel: for everybody. Kevin: line up with the rest of his teachings. That kind Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: of would be an extraordinary claim, it seems like. Daniel: Anyway, that was kind of a tangent, but thank you Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: for, thanks for Kevin: these Daniel: imparting Kevin: things are Daniel: your wisdom. Kevin: weird and cop- well, it is a tangent, but it's not because it is the larger question of why are we not comfortable with accepting play and being the grasshopper. Daniel: Exactly, exactly. Kevin: Meaning, of course, in background, that's an image that Bernard Suits uses that- It's from Aesop's fables. The grasshopper played while the ant worked, and in the wintertime, the ant had worked and stored food and survived, and the grasshopper died because he played too much. And Suits is trying to contradict that fable, Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: the morality of that fable, Daniel: And Kevin: yeah. Daniel: he gets there ultimately by saying, in the cosmic scheme of things, in this universe where everything is provided and we really can't generate anything, we can't really produce anything, in the Kevin: Good. Daniel: cosmic things, everything we do is unnecessary. Right? If I die right now, the universe is gonna go on just fine. You know what I mean? Of course, Of course, my family and friends will be sad or maybe some people would know me will be happy. I don't know, but not my family. They would be sad, of course. But in the grand scheme of things, the universe is going to go on just fine, right? That everything we do ultimately is unnecessary. And Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: on the one hand, that's so liberating. It opens up the possibility for dedicating ourselves to a life of play in a way. But Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: on the other hand, Kevin: Maximizing pleasure. Yeah Daniel: We find it so devastating too, because we all like to think that what we do is essential, for the running of the Kevin: Right. Daniel: universe, that we are essential to life. So anyway, yeah, yeah. Kevin: Yeah, it makes me think of that poem. Is it Coleridge, Kubla, Look on My Work, Ozymandias, Look on My Work, She Mighty Daniel: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Kevin: and Despair. So like he wanted to leave a list of conquests and all that's left is part of a statue in the desert. So yeah, Daniel: Wow. Kevin: it's really hard for us to accept the fact that we don't really put a dent in the universe. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, we're just a little speck on the surface of another little speck on the surface of another little speck and Kevin: Yeah, in an Daniel: yeah. Kevin: AI dimensional construct, something. So day three, as we wrap things up, day Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: three, Daniel: so, yeah, so day Kevin: being Daniel: three, Kevin: constructive. Yeah, moving Daniel: yes, Kevin: towards a playful life. Daniel: right, right. And day three, we just talked about a couple of tools for leading toward a playful life. One was the gift of Sabbath. You know, and Sabbath is this tradition where, you know, God wants us to rest traditionally, you know, one day a week. And so we talked about, you know, I mean, that at least has many parallels with the theology of play, right? That Rabbi Heschel, who I mentioned earlier, talks about Sabbath is not in service to the rest of the week. Sabbath rest is not in service to the rest of the week of work. Sabbath is an end unto itself, just as play is not in service to work. Play is an end unto itself. Kevin: So this is the same point. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. And so the importance of incorporating Sabbath, however that might mean to us, into our lives. Kevin: Mm. Daniel: However, because of feedback in that group, and have such great feedback, it made me think, Kevin, that I think it'd be helpful for us at some point to explore the difference between work and play and rest. You know, that I realized in hearing the participants talk that sometimes I equate play with rest, but that's not necessarily true, right? And so I just want to, I don't, I think I personally need more time to look into that and develop my thoughts on that, but I just want to lift that up, that it may not necessarily Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: be the case that play and rest are the same thing. but I just, Kevin: Right. Daniel: something to explore at some point. Kevin: Well this did come, gosh we're making so many references here, this does come up with our discussion with Alex Radcliffe from Orthodox Judaism, Daniel: Yes, Kevin: the question of Daniel: yes. Kevin: are board games permitted on an Orthodox Jewish Sabbath day? And Daniel: Yes. Kevin: he said you had to ask your local rabbi if there are different interpretations. Daniel: Yes. Kevin: Are board games considered a type of work or are they play or are they rest? Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: And there Daniel: yes. Kevin: is, yeah, that is a question of what is rest. Daniel: Right, right. Because then that gets into, you know, Kevin: And what Daniel: for people Kevin: is work? Daniel: who see their work as play, I Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: mean, then if you say your work is play, then you're working seven days a week, right? I mean, you never get a break from that. And that doesn't seem to honor the spirit of this idea of Sabbath, you know, Kevin: that Daniel: of... Kevin: would not honor Sabbath, but would honor Daniel: Right, Kevin: play, if it Daniel: right, Kevin: is genuine play. Daniel: right. Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: So that was the first tool for kind of moving toward a more playful life. And the second one was just discussing Jane McGonigal's idea of gamifying life, right? That in the other six days of the week, recognizing that we have to work. how can we bring lessons of play to the rest of life? Kevin: Right. Daniel: How can we move work? If in some ways play is unnecessary obstacles that we voluntarily do, and work is perhaps unnecessary obstacles that we are obliged to do, how can we make those obligations, how can we bring a sense of want to do to some of these obligations as well? Kevin: Yes, yes. And she's great to point to that crossover because work is also overcoming obstacles. How do you meet a deadline? How do you ship a product? Whatever your goals are, it can't be easy or else there wouldn't be a job to it. So Daniel: Right, Kevin: work is Daniel: right. Kevin: also defined in some ways by overcoming obstacles. Daniel: Yes, yes. Kevin: Yeah, in fact, we really need to think that through because we're, so there's an area of combination there. Daniel: Yeah, well, if Suetz is right, even those obligations we overcome, those obstacles we overcome in work are ultimately unnecessary, right? If Suetz is right. And so, is the difference that play is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles and work is the obligatory attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles? Kevin: Could Daniel: Maybe? Kevin: be, it could Daniel: I don't Kevin: be. Daniel: know. Kevin: And also it seems, well, games are also kind of, there's a ridiculousness to them. Daniel: There Kevin: It Daniel: is Kevin: seems Daniel: ridiculousness Kevin: like Daniel: in them. Kevin: they aren't productive. So Daniel: Right. Kevin: work is productive. The grass is mowed, the product is shipped. But games, at the end of the day, it's just cardboard and arbitrary rules and little meeples. Daniel: True, true, true. Kevin: So there's something to the fantasy element, it would seem Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: to me. Daniel: But I do Kevin: Or Daniel: remember, Kevin: three-legged race, you know, like, why would Daniel: yeah. Kevin: you do that? Like, Daniel: Right, Kevin: why wouldn't you? Right, he's kind Daniel: right, Kevin: of dumb. Daniel: right. Anything, that's a good point. Like I am Kevin: I don't know. Daniel: haunted by McGonagall, you know, also points out that sometimes play can be productive and sometimes work can be Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: nonproductive too. You know, like, I know I've come to the end of some days when I've been busy all day at work and I look back and I think. I haven't accomplished anything. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: You know what I mean? Like, um, so I don't know. Yeah. It's Kevin: But Daniel: complicated Kevin: there are Daniel: stuff. Kevin: other people that are spending hours prepping for a D&D session. And it Daniel: Right, Kevin: would look like Daniel: right, Kevin: work to an alien, because they're having Daniel: right. Kevin: to do all that. Some games are like homework, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: but it feels like play, not like work. And that's McGonigal's point. How do we bring a certain kind of joy to our tasks? Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: And she gives several answers to that with... room for failure and for nice rewards, a sense of being rewarded for your actions and there's other things she does, yeah. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Anyway, wow, what a great conversation. Thank you, Dan. Is there anything we left out that you wanna address? Daniel: Well, thanks for asking about it, Kevin. I appreciate it. Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: No, no. Well, no. Just, oh, Kevin: Maybe, yes. Daniel: nothing left out, but just a couple things here at the end, if that's OK. Kevin: Those two sentences are, those two clauses are contradictory, but go ahead. Daniel: I know Kevin: Go ahead, Daniel: I'm Kevin: call Daniel: nothing. Kevin: her. Daniel: I'm a living contradiction. I, including the contradiction of incompetence and survival to his kind of, his violence, Kevin: This is Daniel's Daniel: um, Kevin: Colombo moment. Daniel: brief, Kevin: Well, I'll leave, but before Daniel: brief Kevin: I leave, Daniel: possibilities, Kevin: just a few questions, Daniel: brief Kevin: yes, Daniel: possibilities. Kevin: three Daniel: That's Kevin: questions. Daniel: right. Kevin: Before I leave, Daniel: Um, uh, Kevin: let me just ask you, where were you on the night of the 15th? Daniel: that's right. That's right. One, just to say thank you, Kevin, for your graciousness and. your questions and Kevin: I learned Daniel: wanting Kevin: a lot. Daniel: to explore this Kevin: Please. Daniel: episode. Well, you were huge, I mean, obviously, this is a joint conversation that you have been a central part of. Secondly, you referenced just a moment ago how we have referenced so many different episodes. In this one episode, we've talked about, you know, listen to that episode, listen to that episode. And it occurs to me as you say that, just, Just how grateful I am for this ongoing conversation that Board Game Faith has been over the course of all of these episodes. Not just you and me together, but with books we've been reading and with guests that have been on here and hearing from our wonderful listeners. And just to affirm and say thank you to you and to all of our listeners and to our guests. It is such a gift to get to be a part of this ongoing conversation. I know you and I have talked about, what I love about this is I feel like there aren't that many spaces in the world where this kind of conversation is happening about theology of Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: play. And so thanks to everyone for being a part of this ongoing conversation. It's, yeah, it's just, it's such a gift to be a little part of it. And the last thing is... Both and can't correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you know both you and I would like to Really give as much of ourselves as we can to this conversation and to be a part of this. All of which is to say, listeners, if you would like to have some class or lesson or presentation or teaching or resource for the theology of play in your circle, whatever that might be, whether that's a church or a temple or a mosque or your place of work or whatever. And you think that we can help with that? Please let us know. Please reach Kevin: Yes. Daniel: out. We would love, we want to be available to do something like this in your world too. And so yeah, please let us know. We're here, we're here for that. Kevin: That's right, that's right. Well said, Daniel, well said. Well, thanks to Daniel: Thank Kevin: all Daniel: you. Kevin: our listeners. You are awesome. And reach out to us on Instagram and let us know your thoughts. And of course, always invite people to take a photo of themselves at their place of worship with hashtag board game faith. Let's keep that going because Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: it's a lot of fun to see. And we look forward to the next episode, right, Daniel? Anything else Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: I forget? Daniel: no, I think that sounds great. Kevin: Okay, Daniel: Thanks Kevin: alright. Daniel: for listening and Kevin, thank you. Kevin: Thank you, Daniel. Always awesome. Bye bye. Daniel: Bye-bye.