Daniel (00:06.213) conversation with game designer Sam McDonald about games and faith on this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly conversation exploring the intersection of spirituality, religion, and board games. Daniel (00:35.961) Hello and welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. It is great to have you here. Thanks for tuning in and making us a little part of your day. It is an honor and a privilege. And we're glad that you're here for a really exciting episode. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (00:52.239) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Sam (00:54.517) and I am Sam MacDonald. Kevin (00:58.187) Yay! Daniel (00:58.277) And Sam, welcome to Board Game Faith, we're so glad to have you here. Sam (01:03.613) Yeah, thank you so much. It's really an honor to be here. And as I was saying before, but this podcast was made for me. There's a lot of overlap between my love for faith and spiritual things and deep things and also board games. So thank you so much for making this content for the rare people who are like me. Daniel (01:18.105) Hehehehe Kevin (01:24.366) That's why we did it. And Sam is a notable game designer out in New Zealand and part of Garfield Games and is the mind behind a lot of wonderful games such as Architects of the West Kingdom and Paladins of the West Kingdom, Circadian's First Light and Circadian's Chaos Order, which are both just way cool, fun, slightly trippy space games. So yeah, I'm really excited to have Sam McDonald here. Sam (01:25.531) Yeah Kevin (01:53.794) So thank you so much. Tell us, oh yeah, tell us a little bit about your faith journey. Daniel (01:55.597) Yeah, yeah, it's a, we're delighted and it's so nice to know that. Sam (01:55.861) Thank you. Daniel (02:04.545) What was that? Oh, can you all hear me? Kevin (02:07.778) I know, I think... Sam (02:10.269) Yeah, I can hear you. It was just cut out for a moment there. Daniel (02:13.449) Okay, okay. Kevin (02:14.398) I think it was maybe a little out of... Somehow you slowed down or something, I don't know. It's fine, I'll cut it out. Daniel (02:20.741) Okay, that was in real life. I decided just to kind of, I decided to become slower. There's, welcome to, that's it, it's called middle age. Anyway, so yeah, you'll cut that out, thank you. Sam (02:26.049) Hahaha Kevin (02:29.535) It's called middle age, Daniel. Yes. Kevin (02:35.574) Anyway, yes. So Sam, tell us a little bit about your faith journey. Sam (02:43.561) Yeah, so my parents are people of faith. They are followers of Jesus Christ, and they raised us, I guess we'd call it a Christian home. We were going along to church and all of that growing up. I would say I always had belief that there was a creator God who was good and loving, but I didn't really make that faith my own and start following Jesus until my teenage years. Had a little bit of a rebellious stage, as a lot of us tend to do. But then, yeah. God's grace was just impressed upon me, and I decided that there was no one else that I wanted to follow than Jesus. So those are my cards on the table. And since then, I was a youth pastor for about, I was in youth ministry for about seven years voluntarily, and I was a pastor, youth pastor, for about five of those, four or five of those years. And then after that, the senior pastor at my church stepped down. and I was the interim pastor of our church for two years time. That was in between two pastors and that was really a learning experience. I was only 25 when I took on that role and I was also newly married so that was a crazy time. That was also the year that Architects of the West Kingdom came out so I was doing two things at the same time. And yeah, yeah. Kevin (03:57.902) Hmm. Daniel (04:03.061) Oh my goodness. Spinning a lot of plates. Kevin (04:07.244) Yeah. Sam (04:08.671) And now I'm still involved at that church just in a more volunteer capacity. Kevin (04:13.902) Mm-hmm. Hmm. What did you? Daniel (04:15.837) was being a pastor, what you expected or whether, yeah, you said there was kind of a big learning curve. Sam (04:23.101) Yeah, for sure. I always knew that there was something I wanted to do. That was something I wanted to do at some point in my life. I love walking alongside people who really want to grow and who want to learn more. And so doing that under Jesus was just one of the things I really wanted to do with people. There were lots of things to learn. Like I had to learn pretty quickly how to preach a sermon and not just one sermon, but kind of every week preaching a sermon or every second week preaching a sermon. So I had to learn the whole process of writing it and how to deliver it and all of that in a short amount of time. Daniel (05:04.141) Hmm, yeah. Kevin (05:05.782) Yeah, everyone has a few sermons in them, but it's the fifth sermon where you start to wonder, right? And then you have to, yeah, Monday, you got to get ready for the next one. So yeah, it is definitely a, has a marathon feel, at least for me, of looking towards the long game. But tell me about youth ministry. What did you enjoy about that? Or how did you get into that? Sam (05:12.101) Yeah. Sam (05:31.889) Again, yeah, so I was involved in the youth group first, just as a youth, and I loved seeing these people who were older than me, four or five years older than me, who just seemed to be really wise and seemed to be so kind and they really cared about us. They didn't have to give up their Friday evenings to spend time with us, but they did. And they really cared about us living lives that were good and joyful and peaceful. And so I wanted to pass on the same thing to other people younger than me. Um, also what I learned was that the youth ministry and being a youth leader wasn't just for the youth. I noticed an immense amount of growth for the youth leaders themselves. Somehow, you know, standing up and taking responsibility and being people who are generous, they actually learned and grew a lot themselves. Um, and so I saw this in myself, but also in the other youth leaders that I Kevin (06:27.726) Hmm. Sam (06:31.413) worked alongside that actually this was a really good thing to do for our own health and growth as well as building a community that we thought was good and focusing on the right things. Daniel (06:45.957) I love that sense of ministry going both directions, and ministering both to the youth, but being ministered to in the journey as well. Sam (06:57.248) Yeah. Daniel (07:00.769) Yeah, having someone invest themselves in you, especially who's a little bit further down the road, can be so, can have such a huge impact on a person's life. And you're right, it just makes you feel valued and loved and can be a formative experience for someone for the rest of their life. That's really cool. Sam (07:21.809) Yeah, totally. And there's research that I've looked into, I've seen that has been done about young people, and that perhaps in a church setting, but perhaps in other settings too, that they gravitate towards the oldest person in the room that shows them respect. And that was kind of true from my experience, and I find that really, really fascinating. Kevin (07:38.411) Hmm. Daniel (07:38.646) Interesting. Daniel (07:42.425) Huh. Daniel (07:45.785) That's so interesting. Kevin (07:48.85) what's church life like in New Zealand these days. Sam (07:53.005) So I go to a very small Baptist church. We might have about 30 to 50 people on a Sunday morning, depending on what the day is, I guess. It's a local community church, so most of the people walk there, and they walk past the coffee shop on the way and that sort of thing. Everyone knows each other, of course, being that size. And our church is very much super community oriented. You know, we have a time during our service where people just get up and share what's been going on in their lives. What's the big thing in their lives? What they're struggling with or what they're celebrating. And so we get to celebrate with them or mourn with them and pray for them, you know, that God would help them in whatever they're struggling with and going through. So it's a very kind of... Daniel (08:34.252) Mm. Sam (08:51.805) kind of spontaneous vibe, I guess, during our service. We still have sermons and we still have, you know, the time of worship, but there's a lot of time just that's free for people just to do fellowship. That wouldn't necessarily work at a bigger church. It's more structured, but it works well for our size and the people that we've got there. Daniel (09:14.085) Sounds like a really special place. It sounds great. Do you know, it reminds, you know, there's that passage when Jesus goes back to Nazareth and, you know, they say, you know, a prophet is not without utter, but it, you know, is, but in the hometown. And then, and we've talked with other, I've talked with pastors sometimes who just say, who find it hard sometimes when they find. themselves in circumstances when they're back at their home church. And I wondered, was there any of that kind of dynamic for you as you, you know, you were a pastor there for a while and then not, and then were there challenges in becoming someone's pastor and then not being their pastor? And how did that, how did you experience all of that? Sam (10:04.733) Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, over those two years, I was doing a lot of thinking and praying over, you know, how we do church and why we do church. And I formulated a lot of my own opinions about what was a good way to do church for our time and season, and started progressing towards, like kind of walking in that direction for what we wanted to focus on. Daniel (10:16.675) Mm-hmm. Sam (10:34.621) You know, for me, the church is about discipleship, is about making disciples of Jesus Christ. And then disciples are for the world, you know? If disciples are out in the world, they will be a blessing to the world. That's, you know, that's what I think. And so we wanted to focus on that with the church. And then stepping back, it's kind of hard to sort of let things go and allow someone else to stare. Daniel (11:00.956) Yeah. Sam (11:04.073) the ship, so to speak. But ultimately it was never my church, it was always God's church. And the person that has come, our pastor now, is a really humble, God-fearing man who basically spent the first year just listening, just listening to the conversations we were having, trying to understand the direction we were already going. Daniel (11:05.921) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (11:11.842) Hmm. Daniel (11:22.809) Mm-hmm. Sam (11:27.837) and not trying to disrupt things and do things his way, but actually to fit in with what was already taking place at the church and to really understand that. And then after about a year of that listening, was able to offer fresh perspectives, but not change the whole course completely. Daniel (11:46.857) Mm-hmm. Sounds like a lot of, yeah. Yeah. Sam (11:48.605) So it was hard. To answer your question, it was hard. Just learning like, what is my role now? What is my place now? Because there's a little bit of kind of burnout as well. So there was a sense in which I wanted to fully step away completely and hide. Kevin (11:55.262) Right. Daniel (11:58.946) Yeah. Sam (12:03.113) But there was another sense in which like, I still really am passionate about this place and these people that are here, like, I've grown to love them and I want to see all of us grow and know each other better and things like that. So I couldn't let go either, so that tension was quite hard to wrestle with. Daniel (12:03.988) Mm-hmm. Daniel (12:22.125) Sounds like the church is blessed with a very gracious and wise and humble and patient pastor to come after you. And that's, I'm glad to hear that. That's great, that's great. Sam (12:33.217) for sure. Kevin (12:37.149) And is that where Shem attends church as well? Is it the same church or is you all? Sam (12:39.953) No, no, so Shem is about 45 minutes drive away from me. He's in a different town. Yeah, north of where I live. Kevin (12:49.278) Okay, because that when the YouTube with Shem's testimonial, I guess you were there to support him. That's a different church. Okay, just curious. Yeah. So the office, do you draw, do you work from home often or do you? Sam (12:57.714) Yeah, that's correct. Yep. Sam (13:06.193) Yeah, so I work from home. Every now and then I'll go up to Shem's place and we'll meet in person, we'll play games, and just hang out. But we are having a Garfield office being made right now as we speak. So in a few months time, we'll have a Garfield headquarters, which will be half an hour from my place and 10, 15 minutes from Shem's. And that's going to be really exciting. Kevin (13:19.882) Oh. Daniel (13:20.451) Nice. Sam (13:29.625) So I'm looking forward to that because I'm quite the extrovert so spending more time with people will be great for me and my energy levels and I hope I don't annoy Shem too much. Daniel (13:30.733) That's... that's... Kevin (13:40.942) Hahaha Daniel (13:41.595) Is he more of the introvert? Sam (13:44.145) I mean he's really gracious. I think he's... actually I don't know, he's probably half half. He might be an introvert. Yeah, I'm not sure. Daniel (13:50.541) Right, yeah. That's exciting. How cool. Kevin (13:50.826) Yeah. That is very exciting. Sam (13:54.452) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (13:57.934) Do you need any chimney sweeps or anything? I have a background. Could move up and move out. Move up, move out. Yes, okay. Daniel (14:01.175) Hahaha Sam (14:02.237) I'm sure we can figure something out. Maybe someone to make coffees, you know? Daniel (14:05.359) Ha ha. Daniel (14:08.773) Hahaha Kevin (14:09.022) I can make coffees and do the volunteer desk or something, or the visitor section. I can be the gopher. Right, right, yes. Daniel (14:17.005) You could be the gopher. You could. Hmm. You should do it, Kevin. Sam (14:17.385) And we're always up for play testers as well, of course. Kevin (14:24.478) I should, I should. Is it far away? You don't, it's not, it's, yeah, in miles it's not that far. Daniel (14:28.101) I think it's too far. Sam (14:35.081) Have you been to Middle Earth before? Kevin (14:39.319) Only in my mind. Yeah. Sam (14:40.502) Mm. Daniel (14:42.07) And I haven't either, but it, yeah, it, uh. Kevin (14:45.342) I made it to Hawaii, which is on the way, I understand. Yeah, there were sumo wrestling reports on the television in Hawaii. I was like, oh wow, we are somewhere different. Sam (14:50.621) Yeah, it's on the way. Daniel (15:01.965) They reported on sumo wrestling in Hawaii. That's cool. Like, is it, was it Hawaiian sumo wrestling or was it across the Pacific? That was okay. That's okay. Sam (15:02.293) That's amazing. Kevin (15:04.278) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (15:10.15) I didn't care to look that closely. I don't know. I assumed it. I thought it was from Japan I don't think they have sumo wrestling in Hawaii, but they were reporting on it as I recall Daniel (15:20.033) Sam Isima wrestling a big thing in New Zealand. Or just. Ha ha ha. Sam (15:23.645) Well, it's a big thing if you know what I mean, everywhere, but, um, no. Ha ha ha. Ha. Kevin (15:27.142) I was just thinking that. Daniel (15:31.577) great. Okay, yeah, no, that's, that's good. So I mean, you mentioned you asked if we've been to Middle Earth. I mean, yeah, I mean, that's how it seems like that's how the rest of the world pictures New Zealand and sees New Zealand and the Lord of the Rings movies were just huge for that image of New Zealand to the I mean, but do residents of New Zealand do you do you think of it as Middle Earth yourself? That's I mean, it seems like a magical land to the rest of us. Sam (15:32.477) It's not very popular here, no. Kevin (15:51.295) Hmm. Sam (16:00.401) Yeah, whenever you go on road trips, you know, it's every hour there's a massive change of scenery. There's always something beautiful to see. And so I've been to the USA and the USA has so, so many beautiful places, but you have to drive like 10, 15, 20 hours to get between them. Do you know what I mean? And so we have a lot of we have a lot of beauty, but in a small area and also a lot of sheep and a lot of farmland as well, which you wouldn't necessarily Kevin (16:09.283) Wow. Daniel (16:19.989) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sam (16:28.477) necessarily see on Lord of the Rings but there is a lot of kind of boring farmland too. Daniel (16:34.927) Sure, sure. That's great. Kevin (16:37.838) Yeah, that's what you call cinematography, right? They just get the cameras above the sheep and then don't show the sheep. Gandalf had sheep in the books. No, he didn't. Yes. Well, Sam, you were mentioning to us before we started the show that you have some thoughts about God in game design and God is creator. So I don't, what are, maybe one way to start is Daniel (16:44.988) Don't show the sheep. That's right. Sam (16:45.481) Yeah. Daniel (16:50.861) Hahaha Kevin (17:07.222) Which game do you think unpacked that the most for you? Sam (17:12.221) Yeah, that's a really good question. So yeah, I've had a lot of thoughts about this just in my role as someone who creates games and I'm designing a set of rules and we're asking the question like, why am I doing this? What's the value in this? And answering that question actually shows me a little bit about the heart of God and what I think God is like too because he is the first one who created. He's the first one who designed. Kevin (17:13.314) their particular game. Sam (17:41.749) things. And so that's been a really cool thing to unpack. Not necessarily any game in particular that's taught me that, but just the whole design process has taught me about what God is like a little bit more through creating. So here's some of the things I've learned about God through creating. When God creates, when I create a game, I want this game to bring about fellowship. interaction. So what I mean by that is I want players around the table to enjoy one another's company and to interact with one another in some way. And they can it can be in a negative way but as long as they're still between them they're still enjoying each other's company and fellowship. So I want the players to interact with one another and I believe that we've got a God who wants the people to get along. Kevin (18:30.71) Right. Sam (18:36.837) and to enjoy one another's company and he's made us all different and that sort of thing. So there's fellowship and there's interaction that I'm trying to bring about with these games. Another thing is agency and creativity. So one of the things I really look for as a player of games is a way to express myself when I play these games and that's to take different lines of play and to make up creative strategies. Now not every game allows for this, but my favorite games do. Where I can look at the end of the game and say I pursued this wild strategy that was unique and weird, but it was a way that I could sort of express myself creatively and use this agency that the designer has given me. And so I believe that God is like that with us too. I think he... wants us to express ourselves creatively. He's given us agency and different skills and giftings to express ourselves and that's something that's really enjoyable. If you ever want to stop and talk about any of these points or we can come back to them just sing out. Yeah. Another thing I've learned about God through creating is that I want people to follow the rules. Kevin (19:35.99) Hmm. Daniel (19:47.813) I'm writing them down, these are awesome. Kevin (19:49.615) Yeah. Sam (20:01.473) These rules that we've put into our games are not arbitrary. They are what we think are the best way to play the game. We think that's the most fair for all players, but we also think that following the rules leads to maximum enjoyment from the games too. And so we can talk about the way that God has set up the universe, and you could talk about... You could look at this from a Ten Commandments sort of lens, but I don't want to be... super legalistic but just that there are ways to live which are beneficial and good and healthy and right for us and there are ways to interact with others that are good and beneficial that I think God has set up and these are rules not because God is mean but that actually if we abide by these that will bring the most peace the most joy the most enjoyment for all people Another thing I learned about God through creating is I want people to have fun. I want people to enjoy themselves. Sam (21:06.358) So those are four different things that I've learned through creating and design. Kevin (21:10.926) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that idea, especially of rules. We're doing a sermon, or I'm doing a sermon series at church on Jonah. One of the interesting bits is the sailors are so pious. They're these Gentile, pagan sailors, but they don't want to take an innocent life, and they really do not want to throw Jonah overboard. So they cast lots to make sure, and then they still beg him. Are you sure this is right? And then afterwards they still offer sacrifices and prayers to Yahweh, the God of... the Jews, just because they don't want to offend him. And they have this moral code that Jonah is kind of missing, because he doesn't follow God's instructions. So yeah, recognizing that... We have freedom to ignore some rules, but societies work better. And we're happier if we follow the rules. Yeah, that's really powerful. Daniel (22:09.809) I like that sense of, yeah, that it's not set up to be, yeah, punitive or, I mean, it's for the sake of a good full life, you know, a rich life. Yeah. And getting along. Yeah, yeah. And the other ones too, I love, so designing for fellowship, for agency, rules and fun. I, Kevin, you and I have been talking about a book. I think those are the... Kevin (22:23.85) Yeah, they're not arbitrary. Sam (22:24.052) Yeah. Daniel (22:40.089) Section headings right there. That's a great, Sam can be the ghost author. That's so good. A book we've talked about, as we've been discussing on the show that we haven't done yet is a book called Games Agency is Art. And it just reminds me a little bit of what you're saying, Sam, that just, you know, it's this, what a beautiful thing to be able to explore. Kevin (22:41.846) Right, right. The one we're gonna write. Yeah, yes. Sam (22:47.809) Hahaha Daniel (23:10.601) Um. different aspects of interacting with the world and agency and try, you know, and affecting your environment. And, and, and yeah, what a cool gift that God gives us and being able to, to do that too. That's, those are really good. Sam (23:30.525) Yeah, Shem and I have talked a little bit about this idea called... Now I'm not going to nail this, but I'm just going to sort of paraphrase this. Hopefully you get the right idea. It's called the Art of Discovery. And what it is in like a movie or any form of media, a song or a book, putting things in there that are like hidden gems, Easter eggs, little links between things, but not giving away what that is. Daniel (23:31.509) And can I go in? Daniel (23:41.014) Okay. Daniel (23:44.909) Hmm. Daniel (23:57.633) Mmm. Sam (23:59.953) and there is a real sense of enjoyment and excitement for the viewer or the listener or the player to discover these things that were there all along. And so we did this a few times in our band when we were in a band together. So as one real small example we had two EPs that came one after the other about light and about sound. The titles were based on light and sound. and the kind of the main, the big crescendo track, there's this big bit where we talk about, we can't see, we can't hear. And so it's referencing light and sound. And then the last song of the first EP, the fade out, there's just this train that you can hear, this train sound. And then at the first song of the second EP, Daniel (24:52.769) Ha ha. Sam (24:57.045) The first lyric is, I hear my train coming. So there's this little like thing of discovery for a person that listens through. There's all these little links between these albums. And so with this idea of art of discovery, it's something we really enjoy putting into things. And I've been trying to figure out how to put this into games. Now people can do this with artwork. I know that the scythe board has lots of little Easter eggs on them, things that you can. Daniel (25:01.395) guys. Sam (25:25.609) I think there's like a Santa Claus on the scythe board and other things like that. But I'm trying to figure out how to do this mechanically and not nailing it every time. But for me, it's putting in strategies that aren't the obvious way to play, that a player could experiment with over and over again and learn that this is actually another viable path to victory. So there's things, there's little strategies like this you can pursue. Daniel (25:28.918) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (25:34.307) Hmm. Sam (25:55.473) in games like Architects and in games like Viscounts of the West Kingdom that are weird ways to play the game but I've tested them enough that eventually if you get good at executing that strategy it will be a viable path to victory and it will make the game feel so different. Daniel (26:14.149) Can you think of any... Kevin (26:14.982) Oh, great. Now I'm going to be playing this trying to figure that one out. Daniel (26:19.903) Do you want to share any examples or do you want to leave it for the listeners to figure out for themselves? Sam (26:26.217) I mean, I can share one from Viscounts of the West Kingdom, because I've made that public. And there's kind of these four different tags in Viscounts. You're collecting these cards, deck builder. And there's four different main actions. And there's sort of the three core point scoring ones. And then the fourth type of action is like a resource gathering one, like a merchant one. And so it's very obvious the first few times that you play that you want to use the merchants for a little bit to get your engine up and running. And then you want to pivot out of that and start scoring points from the other three main actions. Well, I was very determined to try and make a strategy work where your main focus for the whole game is this merchant strategy. Like you're mainly just gathering resources. I wrote a post on board game geek about how to make that actually work how to we call it the merchant strap But it's this kind of thing that you really you really have to try to be Contrary to even think about doing that because it goes against the intuition of how to win the game But there is there is a way to play it where you can be competitive. I won't say it wins every time Daniel (27:22.064) Hahaha Sam (27:36.465) And if something like that were to win every time, then that moves out of being fun and it moves into the degenerate kind of category. So we wanna make sure that player doesn't win every time, but at least puts up a fight while feeling that they're doing something funky. I think that that's really fun. Daniel (27:55.406) You had these amazing theological lessons from the other aspects of game design that you shared earlier. Are there any theological parallels to the art of discovery? I wonder if there are some theological lessons from that. Sam (28:14.821) I think there's gotta be. I mean, when you read the Bible deeply, you just start to realize, even if you're not a Christian, if you're not a person of faith, when you understand what the Hebrew authors were doing with their wordplay, when you start to look at all of the hidden meanings, and then also the number of what you call the hyperlinks between passages all the time, you realize that there's some amazing things to discover. That's why you could dedicate your whole life to reading this book and actually you could dedicate your whole life to reading just one of the books especially in the Old Testament and starting to understand all the links and But then it's not just a static book as well like it's very interesting just from a literacy point of view and a linguistic point of view and Poetic point of view, but I also believe that God speaks through it that his Holy Spirit illuminates the pages as we read it and illuminates truth to us if we're ready to receive it. So I think there's a lot of art of discovery to be found reading scriptures. And so the book of Hebrews would be a book that I would recommend reading for that because the author of Hebrews makes a lot of links and makes a lot of jumps about someone like Melchizedek in Genesis. and he comes to some really interesting conclusions. So there's some discovery to be made there that I wouldn't necessarily have made those conclusions just from reading Genesis, you know. Daniel (29:38.533) Hehehe Daniel (29:51.417) Good old Melchizedek. He's definitely an art of discovery character in the Bible. Yeah, that's, may I share an example if it just, I hadn't thought about this, but as you're talking to him about, yeah, different ways of scripture enter, and it relates to what you're saying, Kevin, your series on Jonah. Sam (29:53.109) Yeah. Kevin (29:57.) Mm-hmm. Sam (29:57.251) He is. Sam (30:02.273) Please, please. Kevin (30:10.432) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:12.013) Jonah so much. That's one of my favorite books. Kevin (30:14.114) This commentary says it's one of the gems of the Bible, and I think he's right. It's such a little gem. Daniel (30:20.738) And the reason, I mean, I love it, I love throughout it, because there are like these Easter eggs, right, like these discoveries. It's like, whoa, this is in the Bible? And one of my favorite parts of that, examples of that in Jonah is the last chapter, the last chapter of Jonah is amazing. This is where, you know, where Jonah like, like throws his temper tantrum because the Ninevites were spared and goes out and sulks and then this bush. And then there's this verse where it literally says, God appointed a worm. And how amazing is that, that God appoints a worm? I mean, if someone said, is there a verse in the Bible that talks about God appointing a worm? You'd say, no, but it's like right there. God appoints a worm and the worm, and it eats the bush and the bush dies. And then Jonah gets so angry again. And then it ends with this amazing thing that God says about like, you know. Kevin (30:55.274) I'm out. Sam (30:57.941) Hahaha Kevin (31:04.061) There is. Daniel (31:14.689) You're concerned about this bush that grew and died overnight. Don't I have a right to be concerned about 120,000 people living in the city? And then it ends. And it's like, it's like, it's like, it's waiting for the reader to answer it. Oh, it's so, it's such a good, and it's, but it's, it's got those really cool discovery that, um, that art and discovery things that you're talking about, Sam, like these little wild Easter eggs that you would never expect to find in the Bible. Anyway, thanks for letting me geek out. The cows repent. Yes. Sam (31:24.853) Yeah. Kevin (31:25.471) Mic drop. Yeah. Kevin (31:40.099) Yeah, the cows repent. The cows repent, right? In Jonah. It's so bizarre. It's so bizarre. And uh... Sam (31:40.66) Yeah. Sam (31:44.219) Hahaha Daniel (31:47.117) The role of animals in Jonah is so elevated. The whale, the worm, the cows, yeah, they're all. Kevin (31:49.802) animals yeah because the whale is kind of appointed to or god like so god's like using these animals yeah and i told the congregation i said uh jone is like the anti-hero or the anti-prophet because he does exactly the opposite and yet he gets a book but it's almost like a he's an anti-hero type character and he gets he's considered one of the minor prophets Daniel (32:05.753) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (32:12.173) Yeah. Sam (32:12.453) And then Jesus encourages us to discover and to study more, because when he says that, I'm only going to give you one sign, it's the sign of Jonah. And then we're like, oh, we have to go back and look. And what does he mean by that? You know. Kevin (32:23.714) What does that mean? Yeah. Daniel (32:26.417) Oh, yeah, the sign of Jonah. That's awesome. It sounds like a great sermon series, Kevin. Kevin (32:31.874) Hmm. I hope so. We'll find out. Two weeks in, we'll see how long I can milk it potentially. I shouldn't be negative, I just mean sometimes you take these things on and you're like, God, I hope this is going to work out. So because unfortunately I'm not the type to exactly plan it all out completely. But I've done like half a chapter, so that's part of the nervousness. Might be eight weeks on Jonah. They're going to be sick of it, maybe. We'll see. And if you know Moby Dick, there's a great... Sam (32:35.252) Yeah. Daniel (32:36.837) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (32:48.281) Are you doing like a? Daniel (32:52.665) Like a week, are you doing like a chapter a week or? Half. Kevin (33:03.994) great sermon by Father Mapple or something he does about Jonah. It's great. Yeah. Yeah, you should just look it up. I'll try to send you a link. Yeah, the church is actually like... No, no, go ahead. No, I was gonna ramble. Go. Daniel (33:10.053) I didn't know that. That's so cool. Sam (33:14.229) Wow, another art of discovery. Sorry, sorry, go ahead. Ah, I was just gonna say another art of discovery thing linking Jonah and board games is if you've played Raiders of Scythia, the, is it Assyria? Wait, is Nineveh in Assyria? Is that right? Where is it? Yeah, the Assyria board in Raiders of Scythia, there's a little man that's on the beach. Kevin (33:35.754) Yes. Sam (33:43.441) and there's a little fish that spit up the man. It's in the artwork, if you investigate. Yeah, yeah. So Shem decided to put that in. Kevin (33:47.746) Huh. Daniel (33:47.881) No way. Kevin's gonna get it now. Kevin (33:53.678) I was just looking to try and remember where I put it. Oh, that's great. I'm going to go look for that. That's a fun one. I like that one. Yeah, that's cool. And fellowship, yeah. I mean, to one of your points that we are communal creatures. So we build cities and COVID reminded us how much we need each other to not go crazy. So. Daniel (33:55.513) That's amazing. That's so cool. Kevin (34:21.246) Yeah, the rules for life are pretty clear that we're built, we're made for community. Just like a good game is, yeah. Daniel and I have debated solo gaming. I think it almost becomes more of a puzzle, which is fine, it's great, and it can be fun, but it's not... I almost don't want to call it a game. It's... yeah. Seems like a game you need another bizarre player like me at the table. And AIs can be a little bizarre solo thing, but I don't know. You kind of end up gaming the AI because you sort of know what his moves are, and you can kind of guess based on what he's played. If you're shuffling, it's not quite as odd as my 13-year-old or something. Sam (34:45.429) yet. Sam (35:05.597) Yeah, and perhaps the solo gaming is something that I've missed on when I've talked about these four things. I've learned about God through creating, because we do want fun, we do want agency, we want fellowship, but there's another thing that we want when playing games, and that's problem solving. and feeling smart about solving these problems. And it's kind of, a game is a unique environment where it's a problem that has no consequences or no real consequences. So it's a safe environment to solve problems. And maybe that's what solo gamers are after as well, is that feeling of mastery and feeling of being smart in solving problems. And maybe we learn something about God through that as well, about problem solving and troubleshooting and strategy. Kevin (35:24.536) Yeah. Daniel (35:27.147) Mm. Kevin (35:33.771) Yes. Kevin (35:43.746) Mm-hmm. Kevin (35:54.678) God give us minds. And I know one philosopher said, the universe is incomplete for a reason, like we were made to kind of make it better in a sense. Like nature in its wild state can then be turned into a city type things. Like we learn how to be artisans and create and craft and build and the Bible ends with the city. So there's a place for human problem solving and learning and discovery. Yeah. Sam (36:05.918) Yeah. Kevin (36:25.87) It's exciting. Daniel (36:25.925) When you mentioned the importance of fun, both to gamers and to God, Sam, is that something that you have, I'm curious, have you ever encountered any kind of pushback on that or resistance to that, like in communities of faith? Something that Kevin and I talk about sometimes, that, you know, like to be a Christian, to be a person of faith, you need to be far too serious. It's... You need to be more serious than to be involved with games and fun and things like that. And this kind of idea that they're incompatible. And is that something you've encountered? And do you have any response to that? Sam (37:08.417) Totally, I have encountered it and it's kind of almost an unspoken thing, do you know what I mean? Where people think that, you know, we ought to just care about the things that are important. And I see where they're coming from for sure, I totally do. Maybe fun isn't the thing of the most importance. And I've even had a few people that have been perhaps disappointed in my career choice. They wanted me to continue. Daniel (37:13.881) Mm-hmm. Sam (37:38.165) pastoring or going to seminary and doing those things and I Just I think that maybe you know I'm gonna I'm gonna keep being at church and gonna keep being a part of the people of God But why can't I do that while making games as well? Kevin (37:39.378) Mmm. Sam (37:56.721) You know, it's something that I think reflects who God is as well. He's a God who, as I've already said, likes play and likes fun. The passage that I would refer to is when Jesus refers to himself, but he is also quoting what people are saying about him. He says, the son of man came eating and drinking. And in other words, the Messiah came and all he's doing is sitting around tables. What's this guy doing sitting around tables? Daniel (37:56.947) Yeah. Daniel (38:04.527) Yeah. Daniel (38:18.477) Mm-hmm. Daniel (38:22.821) Mm-hmm. Kevin (38:23.142) Mm-hmm. That's good. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (38:26.078) That's a great example. Sam (38:29.39) I don't think he was just eating and drinking for nutrition and energy, right? I mean that's pretty obvious. They could have had really bland meals that would have given them all the nutrition that they needed, but I think there would have been actually a lot of flavour to these meals and a lot of unnecessary enjoyment. But enjoyment nonetheless in tastes and flavours and also in fellowship. Daniel (38:34.733) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (38:35.028) Mm-hmm. Kevin (38:42.882) Hmm. Kevin (38:50.454) Mm-hmm. Sam (38:54.601) We know that the table was the place where back in those days, surely where people would interact with each other and enjoy one another's company the most. And there are a lot of parallels, I think, and looking at that culture and our culture between meals and board games shared around the table, but also sharing, you know, you've got, you've brought people in who are different from one another, who have different personalities and different history and different backgrounds. Kevin (39:05.966) That's right. Sam (39:24.513) and yet they're coming together and they're sharing as much as is possible between different beings the same experience. And that's something that's so beautiful I think about Emil, but also about a board game. It's the same thing that we're sharing the same experience with one another and I think that's at the heart of a building relationship is individuals, multiple individuals sharing the same experience. And then they develop a language and a way to reflect on those things and memories and in the game sense, metagames and things like that. Kevin (39:57.44) Mm-hmm. Daniel (40:04.409) So great. Kevin (40:04.526) Do you have, I love it, I love it. And it does make me think, one of the things I worry about now is that this hobby, especially as you get more into gaming, has such a high bar that if I invite you to a meal, you know, you just come over and, you know, use the proper salad for it potentially. But other than that, you just eat and talk. But a board game, I don't know, it's so hard to get people to feel comfortable if they're not a board gamer, right? It's a tricky thing. They're scared of the commitment or the length of time or they're gonna look stupid. I don't know, I worry sometimes that board games are supposed to be fun, but we end up taking the fun out of it because we've professionalized it somehow. So that becomes really a very select group of people that are gonna play John Company second edition. Sam (40:39.425) true. Kevin (40:59.338) Right, so. But I don't have an answer to it. Yeah, I just wonder. Sam (41:01.105) Yeah, you're totally right. Sam (41:05.405) Yeah. Do you guys know the spread? It's like a yeast spread called Vegemite. Do you know what that is? It's like this black, like it looks like tar. Daniel (41:14.361) Hahaha Kevin (41:18.485) I've heard about it my whole life because of the song, but I've never had it. I've had Marmite, but it's different. Sam (41:24.093) Right, pretty much the same thing. I think I love feeding people by saying that's the same thing, but yeah. Daniel (41:25.218) Yeah, I- Kevin (41:27.334) Is it? Okay. I wasn't gonna- I don't- Daniel (41:29.985) No, yeah, I, like Kevin, I only know it from the minute work laying down under song. I don't know it any other way. So tell us about Vegemite. Kevin (41:35.661) Yes. Sam (41:38.365) Yeah, so it's this like, in my opinion, I mean a lot of people will like it, but it's this disgustingly over salty yeast spread and you would put it on toast but only a tiny little bit and you put it with butter and the butter is the thing that kind of redeems it, really. But it's become this term where, and some people really, really love Vegemite, right? Kevin (41:39.606) Yeah, tell us about Sell It, Sell It. Sam (42:05.117) and it's become this term I think maybe in the game scene but probably elsewhere too that we're making Vegemite games and so we're making games that appeal to a select few people or blue cheese is another example right and so that is kind of that is kind of one uh maybe it's one regret but it's also who it's being true to who we are we're designing Sam (42:35.033) aren't good fits for everyone. There's a lot of rules to our games. You have to sit down for a 30 minute teach. So that's like, that's definitely a negative side, but we hope that for the people that do enjoy those games, that those games could actually become their favorite games. The kind of games that they could think about and come back to over and over and again. And so that's kind of the other side of that art of discovery coin is that if there are lots of strategies that someone could pursue and if there are lots of ways the player could feel really creative with the game, it's quite likely that the game is going to be quite hard to bring to the table or hard to teach new people or one that isn't going to work with every group. So we're definitely making meals that have acquired tastes. Yeah. Daniel (43:18.537) Mm-hmm. Kevin (43:27.074) Yes, yes. And as well as to find the other people that enjoy that is so magical that they're interested in seeing a new mechanism or learning a new game. That's a wonderful connection to make. And you just have to know, you have to look in the right places. You can't expect your Aunt Linda to fall for that. But how awesome would that be? Aunt Linda becomes a Twilight Imperium 10-hour gamer. Aunt Linda. Sam (43:47.55) Yeah, totally. Yeah. Daniel (43:59.609) No one loves TI4 like Aunt Linda. She's a real convert. She's everyone's favorite aunt. Sam (44:03.898) This Linda sounds awesome. She's great. Kevin (44:06.304) I know. These are everybody's favorite. Oh my goodness. Kevin (44:17.186) Well tell us about Ezra Nehemiah, how are you feeling about it? It's shipping, right? It's landing? Daniel (44:17.369) Vegemite sandwiches. Sam (44:22.941) Yeah, Ezra Nehemiah, if you're watching YouTube, this one behind me just here. Yeah, I'm really, really pleased with the game. So this was a co-design with Shem and I. And yeah, we finished it a while ago, but it should just be being sent out right now to people around the world. It's a game that uses a lot of mechanisms that we've used before from other games, but we bring them together in a really fresh way. Kevin (44:26.53) There it is. Yeah. Sam (44:51.597) It was interesting actually when we were playtesting it we thought we're on to something here, but we're a little concerned about replayability that buzzword Because they were kind of it sort of felt at first like it was a scenario game like once you played it once or twice you've sort of figured it out and you and You'd seen everything but we added in a few little things that and all of the player interaction that's in the game that meant that actually this feels like one of our most replayable games. It's kind of amazing how that happened because at first it felt like it wasn't gonna be close to that. But Shem and I, we keep playing it. We played again recently when we got our fresh new copy with the metal coins and we had a blast. And there's a lot for players to discover in this game too. So I really hope that people enjoy it. Kevin (45:24.142) Hmm. Kevin (45:46.986) My copy should be arriving soon. I'm excited. I think Garfield Games has proven itself that it's consistently good, that anyone that likes one of their games is going to like the others. And they also... I mean, I probably shouldn't tell you this, but they're really good value. Like for 60 US dollars, you get so much game and they're not some big monstrous box, but there's just a lot in them, you know, compared to... You can drop a hundred dollars on a game that's not... It's not going to last as long, I don't think. It's going to have the replayability. So I'm excited to check out what you all have done. Sam (46:24.489) Well thank you, yeah, I think it's one of Shem's goals is that we spend most of our energy and time focusing on making a great game. And so perhaps they're not the most deluxe game, but we want it to still have really good components that it doesn't hold it back. But also we don't go for anything too flashy. Like if people want the metal coins, they can pay extra for them, but you don't have them in every box, so it doesn't raise the price of the... Kevin (46:35.587) Mm-hmm. Kevin (46:45.432) Right. Sam (46:53.577) the standard box, if people want it for $60, they can get it. We don't have many inserts in our games. All of those things that are starting to become more normal and almost expected of the publishers, we're still deciding often to not put those in and still just spend most of our efforts making a great game and then to back and endorse those third-party companies that allow people to deluxify their games. They exist for a reason, they do a better job than we would do anyway, so we're happy for them to be supported too. Kevin (47:29.01) I figured that was a goal because I've seen it consistently in the games that they're They are There's just a lot in them. There's a lot of good value and then there's just sort of a seal of excellence So yeah, I can see that at work What are you gonna say Daniel? Sam (47:42.081) Thanks. Daniel (47:47.766) What was I going to say? I'm not sure. Oh, I remember now. Yeah, yeah. I was wondering, I remember when Shem was on the show, he was talking a little bit about kind of what, when it is thinking about, you're all thinking about. Daniel (48:05.637) choosing Ezra Nehemiah as a theme for a game. And it gets me thinking, you know, we just talked about Jonah, we just, you know, we talked about other Bible stories. Do you have some thoughts or reflections on like, what in the Bible might make a good game and what might not make a good game? Do you have any thoughts on that? Sam (48:27.269) Yeah, I mean, I've had a lot of thoughts about what doesn't make a good game because there's so many and there's so many stories that are about kind of human failure in the bible because we are flawed and I'm also not about making games that are evangelizing um You know, I want who I am Daniel (48:46.806) Mm-hmm. Sam (48:49.825) to shine out of the games and that should just be kind of the fingerprint of what we do in games and what we think is valuable. But the games aren't preaching a message at all. The games are simply about facilitating people coming together. We won't promote anything that we think is unwholesome or bad or evil. But apart from that, like... we're not trying to preach with our games. And so a lot of potential biblical games could feel like preaching, could feel like they've got an ulterior motive and a message, and I just don't think that would lead to the most fun experience for play. So I really wanna be able to answer your question and think about what the next biblical game would be. And I've potentially got one answer. There's not that much there. I mean, one obvious one that hasn't been done, Daniel (49:15.389) Yeah. Daniel (49:29.005) Right. Daniel (49:36.46) Oh. Sam (49:43.037) Sorry, we might have a bit of lag. Can you hear me? Daniel (49:46.981) Um, I can hear you. Yeah. But yeah, getting that message there. Sam (49:48.849) Okay, okay, cool. I was just trying to reconnect. Sorry, I'll say that again. So I've been thinking about what biblical games could be done. And one obvious one, of course, is Noah's Ark. That sort of feels like you could have some form of set collecting with animals. But Isle of Cats has already been done. And that sort of felt very much like Noah's Ark the game without being Noah's Ark. But there is a story of Abraham, or was he Abraham at the time? Kevin (50:02.286) Hmm. Daniel (50:06.753) Yeah. Daniel (50:11.458) Oh, that is like a Northark thing. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (50:13.353) Right. Sam (50:18.706) Um, oh you guys are frozen for me Kevin (50:19.991) matter. Yeah. Daniel (50:22.909) Um, can you hear me? Kevin (50:23.55) Uh oh, I see you, I can see you. Kevin (50:28.535) neer Daniel (50:34.626) Um... Hmm. Kevin (50:40.162) is it gonna resolve? I can see you, you can't see me? Sam (00:02.117) So I've been thinking about other games to make that have a biblical theme and one of the obvious ones is Noah's Ark. You know, you collect, set collecting all the animals, putting them onto a ship, but that's kind of already been done by Isle of Cats. Without having the Noah's Ark theme, it feels a lot like kind of the Noah's Ark game. So I don't know if I could make a game that's unique enough to sort of fit into that, but one of the ideas I did have is a little mentioned story. Daniel (00:19.519) Hehehe Kevin (00:20.568) Right. Sam (00:31.617) And to come back to Melchizedek again, he's in there a little bit, is Abraham and him just like forming an army, he somehow has this army. That story in Genesis 10, where he goes and defeats those kings? Um, that would be a really cool theme for a game. Daniel (00:45.498) Yeah. Daniel (00:50.139) Yeah. Daniel (00:55.614) That is... that is... Yeah, yeah... Kevin (00:56.758) You'd build up the army. Sam (00:58.809) build up the army, go and win the battle, come back and you're blessed by Melchizedek. I don't know, but just that, just like the mention of this, like somehow going in, does he go and rescue Lot or something? I'm trying to even remember the story now. I'm sort of paraphrasing, but. Daniel (01:03.614) Hehehehe Daniel (01:13.242) I think that sounds right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then you're right. And then at the end, that's when Melchizedek comes out of nowhere and he like tithes, right? He gives 10% to this random guy and then he disappears again until Hebrews. Yeah, that would be great. I'd play that. That sounds wonderful. Kevin (01:18.06) Yeah. Sam (01:24.737) Yeah. Sam (01:32.486) Hahaha Sam (01:41.669) Do you have any ideas for biblical themed games? Any stories that you'd want to see in game form? Daniel (01:52.458) That's such a great question. Kevin (01:52.514) Sea voyage with Paul. Um, Moses, you get a murderer guy and then go on the run and then come back and a staff turns into a snake. Samson, kind of exciting, but has a sad ending. Daniel (01:57.49) Hmm, yeah. Sam (02:01.893) Hahaha Daniel (02:05.086) Yeah. Daniel (02:09.918) Hmm. Daniel (02:13.514) I feel like I want to say Jonah, but I'm not sure that would make a really good game. It's just a neat story, but I can't quite think how to how to gamify that. Yeah, that's right. You've increased on the reluctance track. That's great. Kevin (02:18.774) It would be quirky. Sam (02:19.028) Just being reluctant the whole time. Sam (02:24.621) You know, I don't know if this is this might be a little bit too spoilery, but there was this just the mention of Moses and the whole like go away for a bit. There was this amazing series that I read this book series and I'm just going to spoil this for you guys. I'm sorry. It's too cool. Too cool a thing. It was about the it was about the Trojan War and. Kevin (02:44.558) Go for it. Daniel (02:45.086) Go for it. Sam (02:50.713) The authors take that he introduced this character called Gershom, who was this Egyptian man who was, who had run away from his calling. And basically you find out in the final book, one of the final pages, that this was Moses, that he was actually partaking in the Trojan War. Of course, this wasn't true, but the author was saying that in that 40 years when he was on the run with the Gentiles, he actually like... Daniel (03:02.803) Hmm Kevin (03:04.714) It was Moses. Daniel (03:09.999) Mmm... Kevin (03:13.667) Yeah. Sam (03:18.729) interacted with the world and was part of the Trojan War on Troy's side. And that was such an amazing reveal. Like I thought that was just such a cool thing to put into that book. Kevin (03:27.446) That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. Daniel (03:31.466) That's really cool. Kevin (03:32.778) And then I guess he comes back with battle knowledge to face down Pharaoh in a sense. Sam (03:36.917) Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and there were hints at there were hints all throughout there were these kind of Prophets I guess in the in the book that were kind of telling this character Gershom that he's running away from his calling and all throughout the readers like what is this calling, you know to save some of these slaves and We find out at the end that he was Moses I'm sorry to all the listeners. I've ruined that Daniel (03:37.842) There you go. There you go. Kevin (04:03.138) That's cool. Sam (04:05.709) plot line from that book but I haven't seen what book it is so yeah exactly yeah I mean it's been out since before Sixth Sense if we can spoil Sixth Sense then you know Daniel (04:06.814) Ha ha ha. Kevin (04:08.038) They should have read it by now. Daniel (04:12.152) That's right. Kevin (04:16.718) Correct, correct, correct. And speaking of books, what? And speaking of books, Sam, you've read The Wheel of Time, I understand. Is that right? Daniel (04:20.114) Wait, wait, go ahead. Sam (04:28.277) I've read about seven books in the Wheel of Time series and I'm really struggling to continue. I need help. I need encouragement. Tell me it's worth it. Kevin (04:39.294) You need to know the last three when Brandon Sanderson shows up. It's it's tremendous. No, I yeah I got through them with the audiobooks and I dozed it bits of them or had to rewind or It took a while. But yeah, yeah several other people told me when When Brandon Sanderson helps finish it. It's just he gets it all It's an amazing thing that he's able to bring a series that falls apart. He just makes it work and brings it all back together. Sam (05:11.449) Yeah, that's fantastic. I love the whole scope and I love the world building and the magic system. Like Robert Jordan's kind of vision for the whole thing is amazing. Some of the execution, like the... it's just slog. It's a little bit of a slog to read, but man, I've heard the payoff is amazing. Kevin (05:26.502) Oh, it's a total slog. It gets so boring. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just a little bit every night. Just chip it away at it. Kevin (05:39.506) It's a very strange series that it's so good and also so bad at times. You're just like, what is... One person told me he was sick with cancer at some point and maybe he was getting paid by the book, but I've not seen that ever verified, as if he was stretching it out in a sense to help pay the bills. But that's a... I'm not sure that's correct. But that would give it a certain pathos if it was true. Sam (05:45.989) Hahaha Daniel (05:58.035) Huh. Sam (06:03.302) Ah! Sam (06:10.713) Yeah, because I heard that with Brandon Sanderson that he had, it was supposed to only be one book and there were a lot of loose ends to tie off that it just possibly could, it just could not be done in one book. Kevin (06:11.402) anyway. Kevin (06:26.062) I think I may have heard that as well. Yeah, and if you've read any Brandon Sanderson, he's great. I mean, and he's a machine sending out books. But they're really good. Sam (06:36.353) Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think he has the biggest Kickstarter now of all time as well. Perhaps. Maybe? Now I'm making stuff up, but I think it was like up there at least. Kevin (06:42.378) Really? Huh. Uh-huh. Daniel (06:48.595) Hehehehe Kevin (06:48.89) Probably one time. Yeah, I think he did do something else Kickstarter with the book. Yeah, he's got a big fan base Yeah, I enjoy that kind of thing at times definitely Well, what's your favorite game you've played recently Sam? Sam (07:06.673) Oh, that puts me on the spot. My favorite game recently. Go ahead. Daniel (07:09.426) Hahaha Kevin (07:09.51) Oh no, Daniel you go first. You go first, Daniel. Daniel (07:12.862) favorite game that I have played recently. Daniel (07:19.334) Oh, gee. Daniel (07:24.126) You know, it's the most recent game we've played. How about that? I'll say that. Last night, my wife, Kristin and I broke out the board game adaptation of Dwarf Romantic. And that was fun. That was fun. It's a very different kind of game experience. You know, it's cooperative, and yet it's cooperative without any kind of win condition either, except just trying to progress along. Kevin (07:24.355) Ugh, come on guys. Kevin (07:29.888) Okay. Daniel (07:54.142) a kind of a achievement sheet. So it kind of is kind of a very peaceful, simple game, but yeah, we liked it. That's our most recent game at least that we played and we enjoyed it. It was good. What is it? Spheul of the Seiris, I think. Kevin (08:03.426) That's, it won a bunch of awards, right? The S, the Kinder Essen. Yeah. I've not played it. Sam (08:08.677) Wow. Daniel (08:11.39) I may be wrong, but yeah, we were into the video game version of it first, but then have enjoyed the board game adaptation. How about one of you? Recent game you've enjoyed. Kevin (08:22.254) Nice. Kevin (08:28.886) We got through hegemony finally, where you get to play different classes of a country. It's interesting. It's kind of neat. Cause it's, it's a, it's Euro game where you're playing for points and it's asymmetric. So everybody's doing something different, but you really are deeply connected. Cause the capitalist class employs the working class. And so the capitalist class would like to pay them less wages, but then the working class can strike. Sam (08:32.699) Oh. Daniel (08:34.59) Mmm. Sam (08:59.097) Wow. Kevin (08:59.742) So you're doing to yeah, and then there's a middle class and the government that you can add into it with up to four players. But it's a real, they only play it once, but it's pretty interesting, it's pretty neat. Sam (09:13.401) I love those sorts of wildly asymmetric games that they're just such a feat of game design, you know and that they make it hard to get to the table, hard to teach people but Man, they can be so fun and so ambitious in their scope. That's one that I've wanted to play for a long time It looks like it'd be right up my alley Kevin (09:21.186) Yeah. Kevin (09:34.466) Mm-hmm. I've enjoyed it. I you know, I can't talk about replayability, but and it was long It was it was one of those games where the first round took 45 minutes But it's cuz two of the players had not played it and I had only vaguely set it up So it got quicker, but I'm still after about three hours. My brain is I really need a break But I don't think it would be that long if you know how to play it that was just us trying to learn it Yeah, anything come to mind Sam? Sam (09:54.765) Right, that's understandable for sure. Yeah. Daniel (09:56.414) Yeah. Sam (10:02.001) Yeah, yeah, so one game actually that I really want to rave about and talk about is La Familia Excuse my Italian It's a four player only game and it's 2v2, 2v2 competitive So automatically that's right up my alley. I love Team games. I love that feeling of cooperation alongside competition. Being able to do both of those things at the same time, it really scratches a niche there. I mean Kevin (10:15.182) Oh. Sam (10:30.413) The negative is that you must have four people to get it to the table, but it's a fantastic game. It's set in Sicily and everyone's playing sort of as a, I think like a mafia family. And it's an area control game and there's car bombs and there's speed boats and there's all sorts of sorts of crazy nonsense blowing each other up. But it's hilarious. It's got an amazing Papyrus's Rock style bluff combat system. Kevin (10:53.054) I love nonsense, I really do. Aha. Sam (10:59.841) which just leads to crazy, hilarious moments. You gotta be, like, and there's even some cool Euro-style action-taking and min-maxing in there as well. So if you like Chaos Order, if you like, like Game of Thrones, those sorts of games, then La Familia is definitely one to try. Daniel (11:00.819) Wow. Daniel (11:24.17) I haven't heard of that, that sounds great. Yeah. Kevin (11:24.814) That's awesome. Any concluding thoughts? Sam (11:33.341) Well, no, for me, it's just been awesome It's been awesome chatting with you guys Really really fascinating and I love I love Sorry What did you just say? Kevin (11:35.858) No! No. I'll cut this bit out, yeah. Kevin (11:49.2) There's a lag, yeah. I said I'll cut this bit out. Sorry, go ahead. No, please, go ahead. Sam (11:56.473) Well, thanks so much for chatting with me. I love what you guys are doing. I also have heard that you're going a slight different direction with the podcast in future. Did you want to tell us more about that? Were you going to tell us more about that? Kevin (12:12.662) Yeah, we are looking to, I guess, rethink the next stage, think about the next stage, and maybe broaden the scope a bit. So we're going with the new image and logo, but it's still very much board game faith. So we're looking to go for play saves the world, which is Daniel's. Wordsmithing. Daniel (12:39.767) We're, yeah, we're excited about just, we would still have, we will still, I'm sure, talk a lot about games and it will always be at the heart of who we are. But yeah, just kind of exploring just kind of the broader umbrella topic of just play in general, you know, and how that intersects with... issues of meaning and spirituality and faith and purpose. And yeah, we're really excited about it. I think it's gonna be great. But we don't know when that's exactly happening. Thanks. Sam (13:15.873) That's a fantastic direction. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. And I guess a concluding thought as a person of faith, and it's one way that I like to think about God. It's a Dallas Willard quote, if you know Dallas Willard. But he says that God is the most joyful being in the universe. And that's how I like to think of him. Whatever you've got in your mind about who God is, just put that aside for a second and think. Kevin (13:19.359) Oh, thank you. Thank you. Oh, thanks. Kevin (13:37.015) Hmm Mm-hmm. Sam (13:44.045) He is the most joyful being in the universe. And that's a great way to define him. Daniel (13:52.373) That's pretty awesome. Kevin (13:54.346) Wow, yeah, that's beautiful. Sam, any special projects, things you want to mention? Coming from Garfield Games. Sam (14:02.029) We're just we're just working away here at Garthal Games. We've got We've got a few ancient games coming up soon not designed by me, but I will endorse them. They're great The Anarchy by Bobby Hill, which is the Hadrian's Wall follow-up The spiritual successor to Hadrian's Wall if you liked Hadrian's Wall, this is Hadrian's Wall on speed. It's just more and Bigger and deeper and more engine building. It's great Daniel (14:21.804) Mmm. Daniel (14:25.606) Mm. Kevin (14:29.835) Mm. Sam (14:31.253) And then Shem's got another game coming out too called Scarab Ray. This is also in the ancient line. Meanwhile, I'm kind of working behind the scenes on a few different projects here and there. But we've got Inventors of the South Tigris, which will drop at the end of the year. And Ezra and Nehemiah should be coming very, very soon. Kevin (14:37.71) Mm-hmm. Daniel (14:56.666) and how can people... Go ahead, Kevin. Kevin (14:57.014) You guys are. I just, you guys are amazing how many quality games you put out. So that's, that's tremendous. Yeah. And I love Hadrian's wall. I've almost played through the whole deck of papers. So that's a great one. Sam (15:09.741) Wow. Daniel (15:11.858) That is, that's a favorite of my wife and me too. Yeah. We enjoy playing that together as well. How can people get ahold of you or find you, uh, Sam, where, where are you on the, on the interwebs if people want to learn more about you or Garfield? Sam (15:29.783) Yeah, I don't really have that much of a presence online. You can contact me on BoardGameGeek and I hang out also in Discord, Garfield Games, we have a Discord server and that's probably the best place to chat with me. I do have a YouTube channel with like three or four videos but I don't update that very often at all. I've talked a little bit about this thing called the Daniel (15:49.548) Ah. Sam (15:55.361) Cursed problems in game design and I've been meaning to make more videos at some point but it's as you guys know like all the editing and stuff takes a while and I Don't necessarily enjoy that part of it Kevin (16:08.885) Mm-hmm. Yes, awesome. Daniel (16:12.998) I'm really lucky Kevin does all the editing. I just show up and stumble over words. No, no, no. No. Kevin (16:20.106) I'm really lucky because Daniel's smart and I don't have to edit much because I just put more Daniel in. Anyway, well thank you so much Sam, you're very gracious with your time and thank you for all your great work. So look forward to following your next projects. So thank you. Sam (16:24.721) Ha ha ha. Daniel (16:40.114) Yeah, thank you, Sam. This has been a delightful episode. This really been wonderful to get to talk with you and we really are grateful for your making time for this in your busy schedule. Thanks so much. Sam (16:54.169) I know it's been a pleasure, thank you. Kevin (16:59.074) Alright everyone, boardgamefaith.com, Instagram, boardgamefaith. Love to hear from you. Goodbye. Daniel (17:09.118) Bye bye.