Daniel (00:03.497) Are you feeling burned out? Do you sense that you're so worn down by the grind of life that you're not sure you have much more to give? If you're not feeling that way right now, chances are good that you've probably experienced those kind of emotions in the past. Burnout is real and it's common, especially for those who often find themselves in roles of caring for other people. So how can we respond to burnout? And how can we care for ourselves and allow ourselves to be cared for while we're caring for others at the same time? This episode, we are thrilled to welcome Reverend Dr. Casey Sigmon, who believes that part of the solution is play. In fact, she is the director of the new Pause Play Center, which is dedicated to the transformative... and healing power of... Play. All on this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games! Daniel (01:37.481) Hello and welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. It is so good to have you joining us today. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:45.63) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Casey (01:47.631) And my name is Casey Sigmon. Daniel (01:50.313) Casey, welcome! We're so grateful to have you here! Casey (01:54.759) Thanks, I'm excited to be here. Daniel (01:57.673) We've been looking forward to this episode for quite a while. I'm excited to welcome another, another Missourian. We're two central time zone people today to Kevin's one Eastern time zone. Kevin (02:13.084) I think part of this show is just to pull me into being a sort of orbiting around Missouri. That's what I'm trying to say. Pulling into the orbit of Missouri. Daniel (02:23.829) pulling into the orbit of Missouri. Casey (02:24.183) Yeah. Yes. Daniel (02:28.978) That's something. That's, yeah, yeah. I'm... Casey (02:30.282) That is something. Kevin (02:30.374) Yeah. Are you going to Geekway, Casey, which is a board game convention in Missouri? Daniel (02:38.054) St. Louis. Casey (02:39.006) It's in St. Louis. I won't be able to make it, but I will sometime. Yeah. Kevin (02:44.888) We're going, Daniel and I are going. So we're excited. Daniel (02:45.313) Yeah, it's pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome. And then come to the Missouri orbit. Well, today it's like a really, it's like a really, a really bad bubble gum. Have you tried Missouri orbit? No, I don't think so. Casey (02:48.366) Of course you are. It would just be wrong if you didn't go. They would cancel if you weren't there. Kevin (02:51.58) Alright, I'm in the orbit. Kevin (03:01.476) Sorb it Was orbit Casey (03:03.973) M-A-S-O-R-B-I-T. Come to the M-A-S-O-R-B-I-T. Kevin (03:09.276) Vizorbit. Mmmm Daniel (03:14.941) for that clean, fresh sort of meh feeling. I am so excited about this episode because it is special for three very awesome reasons. Number one, of course, as we've already named, we are welcoming Reverend Dr. Casey Sigmund to our episode. And so Casey, that just makes it special enough. Even if we had nothing else going on this episode, just having you here is... Casey (03:17.898) Ms. feeling. Kevin (03:19.792) this feeling. Casey (03:41.122) Ha ha ha. Daniel (03:44.421) Amazing. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But as if that's not enough. Number two, this is our 50th episode. Isn't that amazing? It's our 50th episode. We're so thankful for dear listeners who have some of them have been listening from the very beginning and some of them are newer. I bet so many of you have just kind of hung in there through 50 episodes of Kevin (03:54.396) Amazing. That's pretty great. Daniel (04:13.685) zaniness and randomness and that's the other thing. The third thing is the third awesome moment here. No, that's okay. When this episode is released or as they say, when it drops, it's going to be our two-year anniversary. It's going to drop on the two-year anniversary of Board Game Faith. So what a better way to mark those milestones than to welcome you, Casey. Kevin (04:15.224) Yeah, roughly two years, right? We're coming up on two years? Yeah? Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know that. We didn't talk about this. Kevin (04:31.548) That's crazy. Casey (04:36.078) Whoa. Kevin (04:40.472) Hmm. Casey (04:41.568) Oh, I thank you so much. Daniel (04:43.253) Thanks for being part of this really special episode. We are, we're grateful for it. So, Kevin, how's everything out in North Carolina? We've already acknowledged the time difference. Anything else going on in your world? Casey (04:58.936) Ha ha! Kevin (04:59.316) Weather's really nice. Daffodils are out and yeah spring is spring is sprung. Spring is sprung? I mean not technically but it feels like it is springing. Daniel (05:03.107) Ooh. Daniel (05:07.285) Spri Casey (05:09.31) It's springing. Daniel (05:10.193) It's getting close. Yeah, yeah, there's, the springiness is winding up. Casey (05:12.238) Hehehehe Kevin (05:16.556) Yeah, yeah. And Easter is really early this year. It's so weird. It's in March again. So it feels rushed if you're in the church world. It was like Christmas, New Year's, and now it's Lent and we'll be Easter soon. Casey (05:20.421) Yeah. Daniel (05:22.673) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (05:32.465) It will, yeah, it is upon us. You have a lot of things to get ready for. Kevin (05:38.86) Not too much. We've had these Lenten lunches the community churches have done and so that's been nice and we have a Monday Thursday service, but And then Easter we have Easter sunrise. That's a community service in the graveyard and Then we have our cantata like a couple hours later because they used to just not do the church service at 11 After the sunrise, but people can't handle that. They just showed up anyway because of habits Daniel (05:38.949) Holy week Easter in your world. Daniel (05:47.609) Okay, okay, cool. Daniel (05:55.733) That's so neat. Kevin (06:07.884) So they just decided to have such... Just easier just to have church than not have church because people just wander in and they're like, oh, where is everyone? So yeah, they're in the graveyard. Yes, right, right. Right out there. Daniel (06:07.918) Hahaha Casey (06:10.472) No. Casey (06:17.234) in the graveyard? Daniel (06:18.909) That's, you know, out there among the tombstones. That sounds, that's what a wonderful way. I mean, the Moravians do that, right? And is there a big Moravian influence out in your part of North Carolina? Yeah. Casey (06:22.926) I should do. Kevin (06:32.892) I wonder if it's from that, yeah. I don't know where those traditions come from. Daniel (06:37.533) yeah okay cool Kevin (06:39.064) Yeah. Yeah, it predates me. Casey (06:40.462) That's really cool. Daniel (06:43.577) And, and Casey, you're out in Kansas city, um, the Western edge of Missouri. How are we want to, we want to find out more about you in just a moment, but just, and just in general, how are things in Kansas city this morning? How's, how's your world? Casey (06:46.34) I am. Out West. Casey (06:58.178) Things in, oh, they're lovely. The daffodils are also daffodiling here, which makes me nervous because I want to tell them this is Kansas City and there will be another freeze. It's inevitable, but it's, yeah, it's a gorgeous day here in Kansas City, Missouri. Daniel (07:08.743) Hehehehe Kevin (07:11.076) Right. Daniel (07:16.649) Good, good, glad to hear it, glad to hear it. Well, yes, so Casey, you and I and you and Kevin, we've all had conversations before this episode and it's been so great to get to know you in those ways, but for our listeners, if you would, tell us a little bit about yourself, please. I, Kevin and I know you're the director of the Pause Play Center, as we already mentioned. Kevin (07:17.647) Mm. Daniel (07:46.137) You teach at St. Paul Theological Seminary there in Kansas City. You're an ordained pastor in the Disciples of Christ Church, the Christian Church. But yeah, so tell us a little bit more. Where are you from? What's your story like? How did you come to these places? Casey (08:03.242) Well, I am from Kansas City, Missouri. I was born less than 10 miles from where I sit. So I am a homegrown Kansas Cityan, which is why they named me Casey. Just kidding. I've never heard that before. Yes, we are all named Casey. Casey Musgraves is from here. Casey Jones. Daniel (08:06.726) Ah. Daniel (08:11.724) Uh... Kevin (08:12.217) Weird. Daniel (08:19.727) Is that, is that a legal requirement if you're born in the city limits? Kevin (08:28.305) Oh wow, how funny. Casey (08:31.142) I don't know who else. Um, so, no, so I'm from here. Casey Kaysom, Casey Kashi Kaysom. Um, so yeah, this is, this is my, my home. And I grew up with a mom who worked at Hallmark because if you are in Kansas city, chances are you might have a Hallmark connection. So a home full of art and my house is still full of her art. Um. Daniel (08:33.237) Casey Kasem? Yeah, okay, okay. Ha ha ha. Daniel (08:52.445) Yes? Casey (08:58.786) and silliness and playfulness all the time because her studio was based out of the house. So I was one of those kids that grew up with an abundance of materials at my fingertips to be a maker and a creative all of my life. So that led me to studying film and theater at the University of Kansas. So yeah, Rock Chalk Jayhawk even though. Kevin (09:07.492) Hmm. Casey (09:27.846) I'm in Kansas City. I know, I know. It's okay. Thanks. There's a thing. Daniel (09:27.973) Oh yeah, that's that is okay. All are welcome. Yeah. All, all are welcome. They're there. There's, there's a regional rivalry between Kansas and Missouri. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Kevin (09:32.216) I have no idea what you're talking about, but I believe you. Kevin (09:40.548) Gotcha. Right. Casey (09:42.018) There's a little tension there. Um, that's okay. Uh, so yeah, I studied film and, uh, really wanted to make MTV music videos, but you know, time, times change y'all. And you know, MTV did not continue to show music videos. Also, I got really involved in church plants and being the creative director and film art person for worship. Kevin (09:54.03) Oooo Casey (10:10.366) And that's actually how I got my foot in the door into ministry was I loved being a creative in those worship spaces and being in the planning meetings and asking those questions of why, why do we choose this music? Why is this the mood for the environment, et cetera, et cetera? And really, those are theological questions. So I wound up going to seminary and then being called into ordained ministry. Kevin (10:24.718) Mm-hmm. Casey (10:38.914) and still wanting to ask why about worship. So got a PhD in homiletics and liturgics at Vanderbilt before amazingly getting a job back in my hometown at a Methodist seminary. So, so lucky. So that's a little bit. Daniel (10:53.173) Wow. Daniel (10:56.681) Did you ever, did you expect to come back home? Was that out of the blue? Kevin (10:56.902) That's awesome. Casey (11:02.57) I would have loved, I wanted to, like I have a strong village here, but I mean, in the academy, you never know where you're gonna go. And so thanks for the synchronicity. God, that's pretty cool. I'm happy to be here. Daniel (11:04.466) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (11:13.754) Right, right. Daniel (11:18.128) Hehehe Daniel (11:22.229) So I want to ask a couple things about, I mean, so I'm just curious. You mentioned your mom working for a hallmark and having the studio there. And so it was like, she design cards. Like, is this what she was like there at the house? How interesting. Nice. Casey (11:34.034) Yeah, she's an illustrator. So Christmas ornaments, books, cards. She was, uh, she was one of the, on the early brainstorm team for Rainbow Bright in the early eighties. Yeah. So it's so just full of color and, um, joy and silliness, uh, in my house. Yeah. Daniel (11:39.826) Nice. Daniel (11:45.961) Oh, rainbow pride. Yeah. Kevin (11:46.42) No, that was huge. Daniel (11:52.282) I remember Rem upright, yeah. Daniel (11:58.653) What a cool place. Yeah. And and you go ahead, Kevin. Kevin (12:02.2) Yeah, oh, I was just going to side note that organized religion is such a force, can be such a force for good in how it contributes to the arts, because that's how so many people, I don't know, they get to sing in choirs and as you're saying lead worship and learn public speaking and yeah, it's such a force for creativity and we don't always tell that story that there's all these expressive moments that Casey (12:28.398) Yeah. Kevin (12:32.509) that empower people. So just a little side note. Daniel (12:36.733) That's such a great point. Yeah. I am I I'm not recalling it now, but I'm Casey (12:36.992) It's true. Kevin (12:37.232) Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Kevin (12:42.712) I mean the only times I've ever sung have been in church. In terms of like a choir type thing. And I've gotten to play handbells and that kind of stuff. Yeah. Get to know for the cantata. And as kids putting on a little play, that kind of thing. Yeah. It's your first taste of creative expression. Daniel (12:45.778) Yeah, yeah. Casey (12:48.822) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniel (12:48.934) Yeah. Daniel (12:53.081) and you get together for the cantata and all of that. That's a great point. Yeah. Daniel (13:04.309) That's such a great point, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. Kevin (13:06.116) outside of school. I mean the school's something, I mean school's something, yeah, but I shouldn't minimize that, but yeah, church is, it's neat. Daniel (13:14.065) Yeah. Cool. Well, speaking of, yeah, the bringing the creative arts into to worship. I mean, so you mentioned Casey, you studied film and theater in Kansas, wanting to be a MTV video director. Sidebar, were there any especially influential music videos growing up? Did you did anything that you remember as a really great video? Casey (13:33.38) Yeah. Casey (13:40.802) Oh, thank you for asking. So my, okay, sidetrack, here we go. My favorite, one of my favorite directors is Spike Jones. So he did the Christopher Walken fat boy slim video where Christopher Walken's dancing through. He also did Bjork's, it's oh so quiet, which is just this, like that video makes me cry. It's just so joyful and beautiful and playful. Daniel (13:53.321) Yes? Daniel (13:57.149) Yes! Kevin (14:03.696) Hmm. Daniel (14:08.109) I don't know that one. Casey (14:10.774) He also did the white stripes, uh, Lego video and fell, uh, and, uh, dead leaves in the dirty ground and a bunch of others. So spike Jones is amazing, but even way, way back at the beginning, uh, Peter Gabriel videos, anything he did, especially sledgehammer just like. Kevin (14:29.7) Yeah, I was... Daniel (14:31.141) Yeah! Sledgehammer, yeah. Kevin (14:33.349) Yeah. Casey (14:35.23) So one of my film, I had to make a stop motion film for one of my assignments, like old school, old school. And I did one with fruit animation, very much like riffing off of sledgehammer. And this may be in a prox, but this is a window into my sense of humor. Also, I should say, I did not grow up in a religious Christian home. My high school rebellion was becoming a Christian. So we... Kevin (14:49.893) Mm. Kevin (15:02.427) Ha ha Daniel (15:03.08) Take that! Casey (15:06.279) Just kidding. My parents were weirded out, but they're okay with it now. It's been a long time. But I created a stage and I had a full apple with a top hat and like tiny fruits and vegetables in the audience with tiny money and the apple was stripping and I was taking a bite out of the apple stop motion, take another bite, stop motion until it went down to its core. And have you ever watched Parks and Recreation? Daniel (15:22.353) Ha! Kevin (15:25.456) That's funny. Daniel (15:31.593) That's great, yes. Casey (15:32.606) in the episode where Adam Driver is making, he's having a crisis and he makes a stop motion film to REM, Stand in the Place Where You Live. And he works all night and he's like, let me show you. And it just goes, stand in the place where you, and that's like, for all of the footage that he took all night long, he got 11 seconds. And that's, you know, that's art. That's the animation process. Anyway. Kevin (15:32.889) Yes. Kevin (15:52.513) Hehehehe Kevin (16:00.668) That's so funny. Daniel (16:02.631) That's great. I love that. I haven't thought about this sledgehammer video in a long time. That's, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Casey (16:08.138) Look it up on YouTube, still holds up. Kevin (16:08.333) Right. Kevin (16:12.388) Yeah, they had the chickens dancing, which I think I saw somewhere they were. The smell was awful because of what you're saying. It took so long and the chicken was actually rotting. And yeah. Casey (16:14.25) Yes, at the end. Casey (16:20.654) hours. Can you imagine? I was like, I hope they were wearing gloves. I hope no one got salmonella in that experience. Kevin (16:26.116) Slimy. Yeah. Oh, they became vegetarians after that a bit Casey (16:31.27) Yeah, sure. Daniel (16:32.534) That was the experience. So have you, as you moved into the church world, what overlap did you discover between your work in creating videos and film and worship? How are those two worlds come together for you? Casey (16:48.522) Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, I mean, it's really funny. Marsha McPhee wrote a really great book called Think Like a Filmmaker. Before I saw it, that's really what it's all about. As I see the liturgy is a drama and you're entering in from one world and slowly being immersed into the movement of another. And so in preaching too, like thinking about, what'd you say? Kevin (17:10.968) Magic circle. Magic circle. Kevin (17:16.196) The magic circle, it's something we've talked about in the past. You're creating a magic circle. Casey (17:18.11) Oh, the magic circle. I thought you were like chanting some spell on me and I was like, Oh, wow, this is going in a weird place, but that's cool. I like magic. The magic circle. Um, so yeah, but that's worship is very dramatic. I'd like, I'm very influenced by the new homiletic Fred Craddock, Eugene Lowry, but trick and the idea that preaching also. Daniel (17:23.759) Hahaha Kevin (17:28.195) Surprise, we're a cult. Daniel (17:29.929) Yeah Casey (17:44.95) can create this suspense and this drama and that causes people to lean into the story. So, you know, film theory, all of that really impacts the way that I think about worship design and designing a sermon as well. Kevin (17:59.822) Say more about that the new preaching because I've read some cradic and I had a class in seminary but I didn't understand all the theories or how that was different. Casey (18:10.046) Yeah. So I guess the critique at the time, so think of like the, it was the late 1960s, early 1970s when the new homiletic, um, started formulating, uh, as a homiletic theory and really the critique was that it felt like preaching had been taught in schools. Like it was just this rhetorical exercise and all of the, all the preacher needed to do to get their points across. was to clearly communicate their argument and it kind of created this sort of abstract talking about the scripture, talking about God, but not creating an experience that lives in the situation of a world that's on fire. It just felt like, yeah, you're telling me about scripture, but you're not connecting this to the human condition in a time of revolution and assassinations and failed. Kevin (18:55.582) Mm. Casey (19:05.986) peace movements, right, in Vietnam. And so the New Homiletics said, basically, we should take the situation of the listeners just as seriously as we take the situation of the historical scriptural context. And that is how preaching transforms people. And we're storytellers, we're a storied people. So we should be listening to the stories of now just as much as we should be reading the stories from scripture. Kevin (19:39.969) I like it, I like it. I would guess in my own experience and work, I probably even give more power to people's stories than the Bible, at least in the sermon, because it's not Bible study and it's not devotional and it's not learning. It's really, where does this meet me? And I don't know. Casey (19:51.448) Yeah. Kevin (20:02.156) I guess on that spectrum, because some churches and newer churches probably are even more leaning into the world of the person and thought about it as being almost a ratio. Yeah. Interesting. Because I tried for years, and Daniel as well, with the... I was taught to do lectionary preaching and exegetical preaching, and it just never worked, but mostly because I wasn't interested in that passage that week. And if I'm not interested, what am I supposed to do? So then you just end up quoting... Casey (20:11.28) Mm-hmm. Daniel (20:12.157) Hmm. Casey (20:29.233) Mm-hmm. Kevin (20:31.12) commentaries and everyone goes to sleep. Casey (20:32.394) Yes. And the whole sermon is, and so and so said, and so and so said. Kevin (20:37.156) Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (20:43.205) As this person has observed. Casey (20:45.45) Hehehehehehehehe Kevin (20:45.714) Yeah. Daniel (20:48.061) That's true. Kevin (20:48.312) Yeah, no more NT Wright quotes. He's great, but just don't quit quoting him. Daniel (20:51.093) Hehehehehehe Casey (20:53.547) He isn't the Bible. Kevin (20:55.525) Right. Daniel (20:55.884) Hahaha So speaking of taking people's stories seriously and people's experiences seriously, I suspect that might lead in a little bit to the next part of our conversation, which is fast forward to pretty recently, you established, this thing called the Pause Play Center for Clergy Renewal at St. Paul Seminary. So. Casey (21:13.354) Yeah. Yes. Daniel (21:29.761) Can you tell us a little bit please about how did that happen and where did the idea come from for it and what's the vision for it, the mission for it? Casey (21:39.83) Yeah. Well, I think it's actually, we're coming up on just one year ago that I submitted the application to Lily who put out a call for grant proposals about compelling preaching and they were looking for. seminaries, denominations, institutions and groups to come up with some sort of program and plan to help boost preaching in a time of so much change coming out of COVID, having to learn how to preach in a hybrid digital world, right? So like, what are some of the programs we can offer that can kind of fill the gap? for folks who maybe were in seminary a decade or two decades ago and trained for a very different world and church and are now preaching in this one in 2024. And I've done coaching and consulting and preaching, so I'm finishing up my first book right now that's based on my dissertation about preaching in the digital age. And so I've done a lot of speaking, coaching, workshops with pastors around how to engage new media, AI, in this time and place as preachers with authenticity and integrity. And one of the things that I noticed, some people were surprised that I didn't pitch a program revolving around that, but that's because I noticed that if a pastor is not feeling well. then they're not going to be able to absorb any new information, skills, or tricks to improve their preaching. And I was reading all of this data about quiet quitting, the great resignation, hitting pastors, the data that said basically what was it? Over the last year, and this was in 2022, that what was it? Almost 50% of clergy they surveyed, Protestant clergy. Kevin (23:27.218) Mm-hmm. Daniel (23:35.221) Mm-hmm. Casey (23:50.066) had considered quitting in the last year. And that is stunning. So for my hunch was, I don't need to create another program that tells them to you should do this and you should do this. I need to hold space for pastors to have their souls taken care of. Because when our souls are well, then we can have our imaginations wake up again. And. Daniel (23:52.828) Mm-hmm. Kevin (24:19.545) Hmm Casey (24:19.55) I don't care what sermon form you choose, if your soul is good and your imagination is alert and connecting with the creative spirit of God, sermons are going to be good. The preaching will be good and it will connect with people. So that's why I said, no, I want them to rest and I want them to use their imagination. And I like playing with words. So Let's create this pause play center for preachers where they can seek some healing and respite and find colleagues that are on the same path and not feel so isolated and alone and create new habits for the ways in which they pastor and preach. Kevin (25:06.948) So should we think of the imagination as almost like a muscle? You think? It seems like what you're hinting at, that it's not an attitude and it's not a skill, it's something that has to be replenished. Casey (25:11.646) Yes! I think- Casey (25:23.138) I really do believe that. I think that I have two young girls, they're eight and 10, and they still have such fantastic imaginations. But I know with the 10 year old, I'm just kind of watching the world around her, the systems that come into play that cause that muscle to go slack, you know, to go weak. Because that's what's happened to, that's what happens to adults too often. Kevin (25:25.254) Yeah. Kevin (25:45.129) Oh, yeah. Casey (25:52.67) I don't think that really happened to me so much because of the home I grew up in. And I was constantly, you know, I did, I was kind of a comedian and making films and surrounded by artists. So I was keep that imagination muscle has been alive in me. But the there's so even seminaries do a really good job of killing the imagination. Kevin (26:07.687) Mm. Daniel (26:16.018) Hehehehe Kevin (26:16.526) Oh yeah. Casey (26:17.45) and making someone feel like an imposter and making someone feel insecure, which is just gonna lead to sermons that are like, according to Enroot T, right? Ba ba da ba da ba da. Who was right? Kevin (26:23.804) I mean. Right, right. Who was right on this, but still I'm having to quote him. Yeah, and systematic theology is, when you step back, it's lovely and fascinating and interesting and provocative, but when you study it, it just becomes, it can also be dry and awful. So... Casey (26:46.81) Mm hmm. And you can lose track of your own imaginative worldview of how God is with you and with people because you think you have to select and choose a system that's right. As if, well, I'm a process theologian, so I'm just going to get that out there. I chose the right system, but no, it's okay. But I really do believe that there is no static. We've never arrived. God's not ever done. Kevin (26:58.681) Right. Daniel (27:07.017) Hehehe Kevin (27:08.319) Ha ha ha. Kevin (27:15.867) Mm-hmm. Casey (27:15.955) including with our theological systems. So keep looking and keep playing. Kevin (27:20.976) Right, right. Ah, so would you rather hear a good sermon poorly preached or a, and poor, yeah, you know, or this is an impossible, stupid question, but it's still fun. You know, like, uninvested poor preaching or a bad sermon with a lot of investment by the preacher and imagination and well-preached. But what do you think? It's tough, isn't it? Daniel (27:31.52) Hahaha Casey (27:32.621) Ha ha ha! Casey (27:45.886) Oh, it is tough. I was like, I need like a pull up some clips. Uh, yeah, to totally understand. And then like blur out the people's faces and voices so they're not like, hey. Daniel (27:45.929) Hahaha Kevin (27:50.032) Yeah. Daniel (27:51.281) It might depend how you define bad and good, yeah. Kevin (27:54.041) Right. Kevin (28:01.88) Yeah, but I guess when hearing you speak earlier, it makes me think there's so much for something well preached that even if it's thin, if it still touches you or is evocative, or even if the preacher is engaged, it's gonna in some ways maybe it makes for a better sermon than a really great sermon delivered. You know, someone just reads it and the mics popping and you know, you can't understand them and you can't pay attention. I don't know. Casey (28:31.445) Yeah, I mean... Kevin (28:31.588) I guess it depends on what you approach church looking for. Casey (28:34.654) It's so true. One of the ways that I think of answering your question is just thinking about AI. I've had students play around with chat GPT and creating a sermon. And in, you know, 10 seconds, it can create a three minute sermon and I'd have them like read it. And it's like, it's not offensive, but there's no soul in it. You know what I mean? Like, Kevin (29:00.348) Right, right, right. Daniel (29:01.556) Mm-hmm. Casey (29:01.982) It's full of tropes and it's very vague. And I've heard plenty of humans write those sermons also. And that's the thing is like, you can't look at JET GPT and be like, you know what? It's looking at what you put out there. And if you were just putting out generic kind of sermons. Daniel (29:05.664) Mm-hmm. Daniel (29:09.101) hahahaha Kevin (29:10.34) Ha ha! It's funny. Daniel (29:18.281) Yeah. Kevin (29:25.017) Right. Daniel (29:25.025) One of the most helpful pieces of advice I've heard on preaching a long time ago, and I think it came out of the same school that you were discussing kind of about the homiletics and homiletical thought. And for our listeners, maybe, who don't know, the homiletics is just kind of the seminary, it means preaching, it's kind of the adjective form of, yeah, just for preaching, yeah. The, is this speaker who's a very good, Casey (29:46.45) It just means preaching. Daniel (29:54.761) preacher and is talking about how to how to preach or ideas for preaching said Daniel (30:04.177) He was a he. He said he felt like one of the most important things in preaching is you're going to get you can get to a certain point where it feels like you're just on the edge of like jumping off a cliff. Like you're going to you're going to take this leap of faith. And he said, and for the sermon to really good, you got to jump off the cliff. You got it. You got to take that leap of faith. And, and, and I, I don't see AI doing that. Right. It's like, it's like, like you said, AI is in nice, comfortable bounds. And it's never going to say anything that feels like Casey (30:30.579) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:32.685) I'm jumping off the cliff or if it does, it's going to be so random that it doesn't make sense, you know, but yeah, yeah. Yeah. Risk kind of in. Yeah. What's the, go ahead. Casey (30:36.433) It's hallucinating. Kevin (30:37.564) Wow. So sermon is a risk. I never thought of that. You should be taking risks. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. Huh. Casey (30:41.368) Huh! Casey (30:46.658) But yeah, it's, oh, sorry. I mean, it is, it's your, you are, I believe, a good sermon. It's a risk to imagine a world that's not yet, but can be, becoming, right? And so we shouldn't end where we began, but through that sermonic journey, there should be this sense collectively that it's like, no, this is possible. Like, I see it in a new way. I am changed. I'm going to leave this service and I'm going to participate in scripting and acting the world that could be. So thanks, homiletics, for that, you know what I mean? So take a risk. Daniel (31:27.485) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until you both named it as risk, I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. Risk is a part of that, an important part of that. Kevin (31:42.096) The song... Casey (31:42.11) And a great board game. Just kidding. Daniel (31:46.299) Way to tie back into the brand there. That's good. I like it. Kevin (31:52.238) The musician Nick Cave has a great quote about chat GPT and AI. He says, it'll never be able to write a real song. And I think he even says preach a sermon. I think he gives as one of the examples because it's never been anywhere. Like it's only like it's never been on a journey and it's never had its heart broken. It has no scars. And just thought that's so true. Like There is no art without some level of pain or journeying. And chat GPT, that's like talking to the whales, man. It has no concept of that. Yeah, I mean, there is no country song without a dog that broke your heart or something. Or a truck. The truck broke your heart, and then the truck and the thing, and my dog did it. Daniel (32:24.521) That's so interesting. Daniel (32:29.758) Yeah. Casey (32:32.356) Heheheheheheh, my truck broke my heart and then my dog did! Huh. Daniel (32:36.505) Nothing breaks your heart like an unfaithful truck. Casey (32:45.558) there. Kevin (32:45.856) Right. Dakota broke my heart. A girl? No, the truck. The truck named Dakota broke my heart. Daniel (32:47.49) I saw you with that Chevy. Daniel (32:57.925) So, so what would you say is the... connection between imagination and play. So in like coming up with the name of the center and think of the role of play in this, you know, and how are those concepts connected? Maybe what is imagination, what is play and how are they connected? Kevin (33:10.948) Mm. Casey (33:26.086) Mm-hmm. I think play has multiple dimensions and definitions. It can be a verb and like an activity that you engage in with the purpose of collaborating and making something out of nothing, right? Like taking the elements and creating a world or a scene or a situation. with your friends under a quilt with, I used to play with my colored pencils and make them people and like the little one is the kid and this it's this color. So the parents must be these colors. Cause again, my mom, um, but like that's, that's play as a practice, but I also think play can become a habit to just a way of, of a posture in the world where you aren't Daniel (34:08.52) Yeah. Casey (34:24.222) you see possibility where others don't. And then imagination is like, part of that is really extended energy to articulate, embody, and share that possibility that maybe comes from the practices of play and the posture of play and sharing that with others so that they join you in this. Kevin (34:26.766) Hmm Daniel (34:52.25) Mm-hmm. Casey (34:53.666) to be, you know, this imaging of, that emerges from the play that is not what was there before or not what meets the eye, but when creative minds meet the material and co-create. Kevin (35:08.312) So should we think of preaching as kind of an act of play? I think so too, yeah. Casey (35:11.762) Oh my gosh, yes. I think my best preaching is when I'm in that playful posture. And my worst preaching is when I'm just not there. And I'm just hammering things together very angrily and not. Kevin (35:25.644) And it requires a congregation that is okay with that, that is going to give you that permission and encouragement to playfully approach the text, yeah. Daniel (35:32.052) Yeah. Kevin (35:36.504) Huh, that's cool. I never thought of that. Casey (35:36.69) Oh yeah. Daniel (35:39.893) I love the image of imagination as kind of extending possibilities. That's a really cool way to think about it. Kevin (35:44.732) Mm-hmm. Casey (35:48.586) Yeah, I also love the phrase, and this comes from Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. when he was speaking at the American Psychological Association in like, like 67. And he talks about creative maladjustment. That's another way it's like, that it's choosing to not be adjusted to what is settled, but not in a destructive way. that it's really holy. I think Jesus was really creatively maladjusted to what was, and that's the way that Jesus could show us what could be. Kevin (36:26.366) Right. Daniel (36:32.765) That's really good. Kevin (36:33.348) Yeah, I've been rereading Mark with Sunday School class and that's a great way to describe what Jesus does, which is kind of bizarre. Like you can sense that the disciples and the Pharisees and others are just scratching their heads because he's, you know, he's not. He's not a bad guy, but it's like he's not a good guy either. They're just like, what in the world? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Casey (36:47.714) Yeah. Casey (36:55.002) Yeah. Are you a demon? Are you? What are you? Why are you drawing in the dust? Yeah. We're uncomfortable. Speaking of the environment, right? Like he had to find his people that were also so uncomfortable in the adjusted world that were like, this is what, this is the one, this is the one who will get us out of this. Kevin (37:01.792) And even his hometown's like, we don't want you here either. Kevin (37:08.62) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (37:20.7) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Daniel (37:25.289) So the, the pause play center, um, as you mentioned, it's kind of funded by this, uh, Grant from the Lilly endowment, which is this grant making organization in the United States. And, and, um, and it's, it's specifically for clergy renewal for kind of pastoral preaching renewal. So if any kind of pastors, clergy that may be, may be listening to this episode, if they're interested in the pause play center, what, what could they expect there? What? Casey (37:42.55) Yeah. Daniel (37:54.225) what will be offered or what is offered, what does the PossPlay Center look like in operation in reality? Casey (38:03.378) Yeah. So we operate with three circles. Um, so I was like, what was the circle phrase? Three magic circles. So we have three. Whoa. Kevin (38:08.876) Magic circle. Magic circle. Daniel (38:11.453) Three magic circles, that's better. That's even better. It's so Trinitarian. Kevin (38:13.637) Oh. It's like Ghostbusters, don't cross the lines, no. Don't cross the streams. Casey (38:22.802) So the first Ghostbuster reference. OK, so the first circle is we have a podcast as well. And I'm sure I mean, I'm going to invite and hopefully bring board game faith into it. So the pause play podcast, our first episode drops March 18th, I think is the scheduled dropping date, date of drop. And basically in that. Daniel (38:33.736) Yeah. You would love that. Daniel (38:41.269) Thanks for watching! Daniel (38:46.773) great. Casey (38:50.622) In that podcast, which will be monthly, you get an overview of against like the reading and the postures that inform what the pause play centers about and conversations with guests. But we also open with a call in line. So burnout was the first episode and we gathered audio recordings of some testimonies from pastors on what burnout feels like and how it impacts their preaching. And so it's a very conversational podcast that Yeah, you'll feel an urge to pause and then at the end you'll be prompted to play. So that's the podcast. Um, then we also, we, everything's happening this month. So we just started officially January 1st and so much has happened. Uh, the, the second circle is that we're going to have an annual cohort of 12 pastors who go through a curriculum basically July through June. Kevin (39:28.124) Clever. Daniel (39:36.284) all happening. Casey (39:49.726) that gives them like tools and postures for sabbathing and listening to their spirit and soul through spiritual direction and coaching and then also prompts for play. So this will be open to any denomination. Like if you are someone who's preaching consistently even if you're a lay preacher I want to put that out there because y'all who are quote-unquote bivocational oh my gosh what the What you have to do is overwhelming to me. So if you feel like you need some rest, please apply. So applications will open the 15th of March through our website, pauseplaycenter.com. And then the third circle, magic circle, is that every July we will have a gathering in Kansas City, Missouri. Dates have not, we haven't finished signing contracts, but it will be mid July in Kansas City, Missouri. Stay tuned. And it's for anyone, any pastor, person who wants a preaching gathering conference that has nothing to do with preaching, but it's like cross training through board game faith, doing something and teaching you about board games or spoken word poetry or stand up comedy. And there'll be good food and arts and play for about a day and a half. So that's. Those are the three circles for a pause play center. Daniel (41:20.137) Those are three great magic circles. Yeah. I love it. So applications open for the cohort on March 15th, which will just be a few days after this episode drops. Um, and then, and then, and then March 18th, your podcast, the first episode drops of pause play center drops. And then, um, and then July, the gathering in Kansas city for any, for Kevin (41:22.508) What a vision. Yeah. Casey (41:30.189) Yes. Kevin (41:36.944) Drop city! Casey (41:41.332) Yeah. drops. Casey (41:49.33) Anyone? Mm hmm. Get use those well use those wellness grants y'all. I know they exist. Reach out, get those wellness grants. Come to Kansas City. Daniel (41:50.089) clergy preacher type person who's interested in this. How exciting. Kevin (41:53.049) Or maybe just, yeah. Kevin (41:57.828) Boom. Daniel (41:57.853) They do grant. Yeah, yeah. So Kevin, if I could ask you, you've mentioned a couple times the magic circle idea. For those maybe who didn't hear that episode, would you mind just saying a little bit about that, how this relates to what Casey's talking about? Kevin (42:18.284) Yeah, yeah, I mean, and this is my take on it. So correct me. And it's been a while, but some of the course or some religions and, and either current practitioners or ancient world had magic circles where you entered into a place in a time where the normal rules didn't exist. And that also is carried over into board games or any type of play, because when we enter this time, you know, this is a different things operate differently. And then we leave the circle. Casey (42:37.378) Don't edge. Kevin (42:48.472) Right? And so that's a way of restoration and relaxing that imagination muscle. So while we are playing this game, we are pirates, right? And I want to destroy Daniel. And then afterwards, we're friends again. Yeah. Is that sound fair? Yeah. I mean, pirates. Is that right, Daniel? Would you add anything to it? Casey (42:56.393) Oh. Yes. Daniel (43:02.726) I'm honored. Yeah. Casey (43:04.282) I am not going to destroy Daniel. Daniel (43:08.789) And that does apply. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And I'd forgotten that until you said it, but I think its roots are in some ancient religious document. I forget its origins at the moment, but yeah, exactly. Kevin (43:20.72) Which also includes games, same thing. You know, like scrying the gods, right, is similar to rolling dice. So you're getting those connections of omen and thumen. Daniel (43:27.409) Right, right. And it is just like you were saying, Casey, that's worship too, right? I mean, it's, I mean, this very sense that you enter this intentionality to play a game, you're entering into this time and space, this limited time and space where different rules apply and we relate to each other in different ways. And worship can be like that too, right? You come into this time and space where you kind of, in some ways kind of... Casey (43:32.886) Yes. Casey (43:50.135) Mm-hmm. Daniel (43:58.013) in some ways kind of step out of the rules of the rest of the world. And you're here in this very kind of special place for, I don't know. Yeah. It ends. Yeah. Casey (44:02.602) Yeah. Kevin (44:05.284) But it ends too. I love the idea that it ends, you know, the mass has ended, get out type thing, like go out into the world. Yeah, you can't stay in the circle. You must leave. But you can come back later next week. But it prepares you for the real world because it's not the real world, but It's sort of a secret to the real world or something. Casey (44:08.474) Yeah. We're not staying in the circle. Yeah. Next week. Daniel (44:10.773) Thanks for watching! Daniel (44:17.489) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Casey (44:26.494) Yeah! Daniel (44:27.495) Mmm, I like it. I like it. So why do you think we are? So I don't know what the word is. Unaware of our need for play, or why do you, maybe a little bit stronger, maybe, Kevin and I have talked a lot about this on, about this on this podcast, that kind of a resistance to play, right? Kind of a, it's a. I'm interested to hear just, I mean, have you, have you encountered that at all, Casey, in talking about the society of the Pause Play Center, and whether you have or haven't this kind of resistance, why do you think that is? Why are we so, why do people find it hard to play? Casey (45:14.69) Mm-hmm. Whoa, that's such a deep question. And something I'm exploring that, that's something I wanna journey in our podcasts and conversations. But I think, again, it does go back to a society that says if it's not productive, if there isn't input for this output in this amount of time to make money and to make this and to make that, then... Daniel (45:22.867) Sure. Casey (45:43.946) It's a waste of time. We're such a, I mean, the Protestant work ethic. And it's so funny, I went to a conference last spring in the UK with a bunch of Methodists. I'm not Methodist, I work with Methodists, I teach Methodists. And hearing some of John Wesley's, he was very anti-play. He thought that that's where all sorts of trouble. occurred is by play and it was crass and it wasn't, you know, of God. And it's like, whoo, we have some, we have some work to do in our traditions to examine why there's a fear of play when the creation story involves God's energy playing with chaos in our beginning. Like, how can you not see that as play? How can you not see God is reaching into the hummus and forming humanity as an act of play and playfulness or Jesus and all of his doodling and wordplay and actions is not extremely playful and seriously important. Play transforms us and makes us say I don't have to go along with that. One of my favorite playful humans died recently, Iris Apfel. She died at 102. And her whole philosophy was like, if you don't dress like everybody else, you don't have to think like everybody else. And she just played and broke all of the rules and conventions and created a new energy because of it. So I think lots of people and systems are afraid of change, and play is going to change you. Daniel (47:11.633) Yes, I saw that, yes. Kevin (47:26.737) Hmm. Daniel (47:34.693) play almost sounds kind of revolutionary to hear you describe it or yeah, kind of an active countercultural Daniel (47:49.577) I don't know what the word is. I'm thinking insurgency, but that's not the right word. But yeah, but just this very kind of counter-cultural act, right, of saying there's a different way to be, to relate, to think. Casey (47:53.954) Hehehe Daniel (48:06.809) I'm surprised. Go ahead. Casey (48:06.89) And when people do it together, that's really powerful. It's like, yeah, you could be like, oh, I'm gonna break all the rules by myself just because, but when it's communally done, that creates such a ripple effect, I think, in the world. Kevin (48:15.033) Mm-hmm. Kevin (48:26.072) Yeah, with board games, there are solo board games and solo versions, and there's a community there, but it's smaller and it tends to be kind of a... I think for many people, it's the second best choice. The best choice, most people play games to connect with others. So that's the reason they play. And a shared experience. Daniel (48:26.118) which is church or worship. Casey (48:42.315) Yeah. Kevin (48:48.516) And that's true for me too. Like if I do some solo games and it's fun, but they can make me kind of cranky in a way that a real game doesn't. So I'm in my head too much, yeah. Daniel (48:56.659) Thanks for watching! Casey (48:57.118) Same. Yeah. Daniel (49:00.17) Yeah So. Daniel (49:07.041) One, we talk a lot about play on this podcast and part of that goes to this, the main reason for that, one of the reasons for that is this kind of idea that we encountered early on in the podcast that playing games are kind of two sides of the same coin, that in many languages, you don't even. It's just kind of the noun and verb form of the same idea, right? That you play a game, if you're playing, you're doing a game. If you're doing a game, you're playing, you know, and in a broad sense, we don't mean necessarily opening up the board game box and putting pieces out on a board. But, you know, just, but approaching life in a playful way is also kind of seeing life through the lens of... of kind of games in a way as well. So, do you have any favorite games? I don't wanna put you on the spot. Ha ha ha. Casey (50:10.246) I do. I do. It's funny because I was recently like doing some internet searches. Maybe y'all can help me internet. But one of the most fun games I ever played was during seminary. Our friends Jake and Kelly had this game called Killer Bunnies. And oh my gosh, we played it for hours. And apparently there's so many like card decks Daniel (50:30.461) Killer bunnies. Casey (50:38.294) and versions of it. I had no idea. So I've been trying to find the one that we did, which was an outer space like Killer Bunnies in space. And you and like you're after this carrot, this golden carrot. And you're you are different characters with different powers and like weaknesses and vulnerabilities in this cosmic universe of Killer Bunnies. And it's so ridiculous and so much fun. And yeah. And it brought us together. Yeah. Daniel (51:07.401) That sounds great. Yeah. That sounds wonderful. Killer bunnies. Kevin (51:07.792) That sounds great. Casey (51:12.014) Killer Bunnies. And it's the hilarious name of a game. Kevin (51:13.156) Yeah, I don't know that one. Daniel (51:17.595) I want to check that out. Thank you. Casey (51:19.122) Yeah, it's hard to find because apparently a 25th anniversary edition is being reprinted in the next year. So yeah, stay tuned. That's why it's hard. Mm hmm. Daniel (51:25.618) Oh, so it's been around a little bit. Okay. Kevin (51:29.564) Killerbunnies.com. Killerbunnies universe. Daniel (51:33.965) Okay, Kevin, we'll have to check out killer bunnies. Kevin (51:36.549) Ah! Casey (51:36.63) Check it out. It's silly. It is so silly. And it's one of those games where like, if you're really, you've played it a lot and you know the rules and you have the strategy, like you could win, but also novices can win because it is so much about fate, risk, what cards you get. And so it can be fun for everyone. It's not like, you know, some of those games were- Daniel (51:41.246) best. Casey (52:01.898) this, you know, who's going to win because they've played it a million times and they know all the rules front and back. So you're like, come play this game with me. And you're like, what? Yeah, yeah, you're going to win. So I like games that are more like of an equalizer like that. Daniel (52:10.589) No. Right, right, right. Kevin (52:14.883) I know what you mean. Yeah, luck has an important role in some games to equalize. That's neat. Wow. Anything else? Casey (52:21.662) Mm-hmm, I like those. I love those games. I also, gosh, I love Cards Against Humanity. I have to say, I'm a wordplay person and I also have a bit of a wicked sense of humor. So I do really well at that game. And I just love laughing and just seeing what people come up with. A friendlier family. Daniel (52:33.122) Uh huh. Daniel (52:41.097) That's great. Daniel (52:45.937) I can see that fit well with your comedy background. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Casey (52:48.346) Exactly, exactly. We have the family friendly version that I play with my girls and it's just as funny. They love poop humor and there's plenty of that in the family friendly version of Cards Against Humanity. Daniel (52:57.749) Thanks for watching! Daniel (53:02.805) That's great. That's great. Apples to apples? Is it, it's the same rule set, isn't it, as apples to apples too, right? It's kind of the, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. Neat. Kevin (53:04.302) Mm. Casey (53:06.9) Oh yeah. Yes. And that's even like, that's where we started was Apples to Apples when they were little. Now we've moved up a notch. I don't think I'll ever play the adult came with my children. I just like, I don't want to know. I don't want to know. You guys play on your own. Daniel (53:20.362) Ha ha Kevin (53:21.048) Mm-mm. Daniel (53:27.325) They, we have Board Game Night at our church and someone brought, oh, I don't remember the name now, but it was the Supernatural show version of that. Cards against whatever the last name is of the brothers in the Supernatural show. Now I'm seeming even less cool than normal because I... Kevin (53:40.919) Uh-huh. Kevin (53:51.289) Thanks for watching! Casey (53:53.206) It's... Kevin (53:56.176) Winchesters, The Winchesters. That's so funny. Up till the like COVID and there was a bit of a break, I watched that show way too much. It's kind of weird. It's a show that's really not good until it's really good. And then it's funny and then it's bad and then it's good. So yeah, that's a good show. Daniel (53:57.349) Winchester's cards against the Winchesters. That's it. Kevin, you're so hip, man. Casey (53:58.766) Cars against Winchesters. Casey (54:09.774) Hahahaha Daniel (54:11.115) Um. Casey (54:16.908) Oh yeah yeah. Daniel (54:18.562) That's pretty cool. I love that. A show that's not really good until it's good. That's, I like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, the show that's like that for us, my daughter Maggie and I spent several years. Casey (54:24.206) Mm-hmm. Kevin (54:25.036) It's just very swingy. So you're like, where did this episode come from? And then you're like, oh, no, it's one of the other ones. And it switches back. Casey (54:32.12) Hahaha Daniel (54:39.301) We're not several years, but a couple years, especially during COVID, watching, trying to go through all of the Naruto episodes. The original Naruto series and then Naruto Shippuden is when Naruto is a teenager. It's an anime about a world where everybody's a ninja. And so it's really, it's kind of like the ninja version of Harry Potter. Like these kids go to this ninja school and they learn to be ninjas. But it's like that there are hundreds of episodes, hundreds of episodes. Casey (55:01.815) UGH! Daniel (55:09.093) Most of the episodes it's like, I just got to get there. You can tell that it's filler. You can tell they're just trying to fill the episode. But every now and then you get to an episode that's just like, this is the meaning of life in a 20 minute cartoon about ninjas. This is amazing. So it sounds like Winchester's kind of like that too. The super natural. That's true. It got. Kevin (55:12.954) It feels like work. Yep. Kevin (55:22.124) Right, right, right. That's exactly it. It does. Yeah. Casey (55:25.937) haha Casey (55:29.874) Isn't that how people think about our sermons too? Casey (55:35.615) This is back and forth with a sermon. I'm just waiting for that one Kevin (55:35.63) Mose? Daniel (55:37.882) You gotta go through four months of meh to a little bit. Well, that's, yeah, yeah. Kevin (55:39.724) Absolutely, no it's so true. Most sermons are forgettable until they're not and then you're like, oh wow, yeah, yeah. Casey (55:47.226) Exactly. That one, okay. Daniel (55:47.238) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (55:52.753) Casey, we didn't prep you on this at all, but does this conversation bring to mind any shows for you? Do you have any shows like that that, like, it's not good until it's good? Or something you've kind of slogged through? Casey (56:03.614) I'm trying to think of, I mean, well, I, I love Gilmore Girls, but I'm well aware. I am well aware that there are episodes that are just like, get, uh, like I just. Like this stuff. Oh yeah. Like, you know, Rory and her dating life where you're just like, Dean is the worst or Dean goes from like, he's cool. And then all of a sudden Dean is like an idiot. And you're like. Daniel (56:04.969) Yeah. Kevin (56:15.65) Mm-hmm. Daniel (56:16.78) I've heard, yes. Daniel (56:26.717) Hehehehe Casey (56:31.754) Come on writers. But when it's good, that writing, that banter is, chef's kiss, it's so good. But there are some slogs, and they are not 20 minute episodes. Daniel (56:31.898) Hahahaha Kevin (56:39.194) Hmm. Daniel (56:43.857) Hahaha Kevin (56:45.489) Right. Daniel (56:47.965) That tracks with what I've heard. I've talked to others who've said that Gilmore Girls can be really good. I've never watched it, but there's some episodes that are really cool. Thank you. Cool, cool. Well, I think we're approaching the time. Anything else that we've left out for anyone? Kevin or Casey, anything pressing we were wanting to get in? Casey (56:55.031) Oh yeah. Kevin (56:55.489) Mm-hmm. Kevin (56:59.676) Mm. Awesome. Casey (57:08.306) Uh, yeah. So, what is your greatest fear? I'm just kidding. Ha ha ha. Daniel (57:12.073) Hahaha Casey (57:15.362) going real deep at the end there. Daniel (57:18.118) We never got around to that. My greatest fear is... cue the theme music. Yeah, that's it. Killer bunnies. Kevin (57:20.269) Right. Kevin (57:25.904) Killer bunnies. Casey (57:26.511) Duh duh duh. Killer bunnies! I will never look at bunnies the same. Ha ha ha. Daniel (57:35.441) Anyway, that's another episode. Yes, yes, yes. Good, good, good. Well, um, so Casey, how can people find you? Who want to find out more about you? How can they connect with you? Casey (57:37.358) Ha! Casey (57:45.814) Well, please connect on the Instagrams, the threads, the Facebook with the Pause Play Center, all one word, lowercase. And you can also connect with me at CTSig, S-I-G. I'm out in that social media world too, living, talking, making connections, playing. Kevin (57:56.06) Pause Play Center. Daniel (58:09.365) taking down names. Yeah. Great, great. Thank you. And there's a website too, right? Pauseplaycenter.com. Okay, okay. Very cool, very cool. Casey (58:18.41) Yes. Dot com. Pause, play, center, dot com. Kevin (58:22.288) pauseplaycenter.com and we'll put links to that in our show notes. Casey (58:27.67) Woo. And that's where you'll find a link to the podcast, to the call in line, the call in line and registration for both the conference and applications for the cohort. It's all there. Daniel (58:39.857) Wonderful, wonderful. We look forward to seeing all of that happening in the next few days when people are listening to this episode. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be great. Yeah, no, we're so excited for the great work for the gospel of play that you're doing there. And thank you so much for taking time to join us. It's been wonderful. And we hope to keep talking and hearing more about what's happening with the pause play. Kevin (58:42.045) Mm. Casey (58:46.338) Ay-ya! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Daniel (59:09.821) center. Casey (59:11.05) Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Kevin and Daniel. This was really, really fun. And now I need a board game night. So thank you. Daniel (59:19.118) Talk to us, talk to us. We got somebody else. And Kevin, how can people connect with us? Casey (59:20.885) All right. Kevin (59:24.88) of boardgamefaith.com and Instagram is pretty popular, boardgamefaith. And of course we are on YouTube and your podcast player of choice. Daniel (59:34.129) Yep, yep, got a newsletter. Check it out. Yep. All right. Well. Kevin (59:36.824) Got a newsletter? Daniel (59:42.601) Let's go play and. All right. Well, thanks so much for listening, everybody. Kevin (59:44.537) Yes? Let's go recharge our play batteries. Bye bye. Daniel (59:51.55) Take care, bye bye. Casey (59:51.906) Bye!