Daniel (01:00.483) We all know what it's like to play games with other people, but did you know that more and more games every year give you the opportunity to play them by yourself? And we're not just talking solitaire here, we're talking multiplayer games with a solo mode, as well as games that are designed to be played by only one person. They can be small games with boxes that can hide under a dinner roll to epic sprawling experiences that you lay out on your table and leave out until Christmas. So what does it mean to play alone? And what lessons can we learn from the experience of playing alone? This week, we are thrilled to welcome Dr. Liz Davidson from the Beyond Solitaire podcast to discuss these questions and more on Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly podcast exploring the intersection of spirituality, religion, and board games. Daniel (02:09.435) Hello and welcome everybody to episode 40. This is episode 40, Kevin, of the Board Game Faith podcast. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (02:14.818) Crazy. It's crazy. Kevin (02:19.146) My name is Kevin Taylor and our special guest is... Go ahead. Yay! Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (02:22.386) Hi, I'm Liz Davidson. Daniel (02:24.971) Liz, welcome! We are so glad to have you here! Thank you so much for making time to hang out with us today! Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (02:33.35) Yeah, absolutely. You'll come to regret it, it's okay. Kevin (02:36.264) Hahaha Good one. Well, Liz, yeah, I did a little looking up on your background, so correct me if this is what I pulled from the internet. You have a PhD from Yale Divinity School, an ancient, no, graduate school, pardon me, see, it's already wrong. Graduate School of Arts and Sciences of Yale, that's probably where I got, I just made an assumption there. Daniel (02:40.283) Well, we've enjoyed it so far. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (02:52.438) No, not Divinity School. No, Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. I ain't no Div student. I did teach at the Div school. Kevin (03:05.598) in ancient Christianity in 2014. Wow! What was your dissertation on? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (03:11.486) wrote about the sermons of Shenouda Atrippa. He was a Coptic speaking and writing monk from the 4th and 5th centuries AD who was leader of a monastic federation in Upper Egypt during that time. He's also the most prolific native Coptic author that we have extant. So most of the Coptic text is the last phase of the Egyptian language. So think like whatever hieroglyphs turned into but like written with Greek letters and like a few extra letters to Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (03:41.42) in. Most of the things that are in Coptic that we have are translations from Greek, so lots of Bible translations, lots of like saints lives, you know, that kind of stuff. But Shenouda was writing sermons and letters and just his own thoughts in Coptic and he has the largest body of Coptic that's native Coptic that we have. Daniel (04:02.715) Wow, his name is Shenouda? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (04:05.19) Shenuta. S-H-E-N-O-U-T-E. Shenuta of a tripper. Daniel (04:09.351) That's an awesome, awesome story. Thank you. Isn't there still, isn't there still like a Coptic, a Coptic Christian church in Egypt? Yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (04:12.09) Hahahaha Kevin (04:12.415) I wonder what his rap name was because it already sounds like a rap name. It'd be a tough one Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (04:19.41) There is, and they have had a pope named Shenouda in the past while, but they also have other like monk names from the Egyptian tradition are very common among Coptic popes. Daniel (04:27.737) Okay. Kevin (04:29.014) And why did you write on Shinuda, but interested you? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (04:31.466) Um, honestly, I fell in love with him in college when I read his, uh, Saint's Life, his hagiography. And I got to the- I'd been reading the Saints of the Desert Fathers and all that kind of stuff, they're fun. Uh, but there's a scene in his little Saint's Life where Shenuta senses that somebody is possessed by a demon. So he picks up like a wooden gong and just beats it out of the guy. And it just makes me laugh so hard. Like, he's basically a raging a-hole who's also extremely interesting. So, um, I mean, you know, he offers just a really interesting insight into, you know, Egyptian monastic life. You know, I didn't know I was interested in monks, but I went back and looked at things that I was reading, like, before I went to grad school, and I'd underline, like, everything about monasticism. I find them very interesting. I find their commitment and their dedication very interesting. And so I really enjoy studying monks. Yeah. Kevin (04:59.594) Right. Kevin (05:17.242) Mm-hmm and alternative lifestyle communities. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Wow and You have taught Latin Greek English and math. That's which is amazing. So you've got quite a background Yeah, and you currently are in Atlanta, Georgia with the website YouTube channel and podcast beyond solitaire Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (05:29.93) I'm sorry. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (05:37.894) is accurate. Kevin (07:19.342) So Liz, you have especially developed a niche area of expertise about solo board gaming. So talk to us a little bit about that. How you got into it and how it's different from regular board gaming. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (07:22.118) Yale's true. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (07:41.83) I would say it's probably actually not that different, especially not anymore. Solo gaming got hot during the COVID years, but let me just say, I'm a hipster. I knew about it before it was cool. Basically, the very short story of this that I've told elsewhere is that I was a magic of the gathering addict, but it was too much money. So I decided to try to get deck construction. Kevin (08:00.575) Right. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (08:03.518) but not have to chase cards. And so I tried the Lord of the Rings living card game. I realized that you could play that on your own. So I started building my own decks and just playing it. And then I realized that other people were also playing board games by themselves. And I got hooked. And so now here we are, like years later, I'm still doing it. And I really enjoy it. Daniel (08:18.083) Nice. Daniel (08:26.287) I've never played magic. Can you play magic by I mean is it possible to even like vary the rules to play magic by oneself or not? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (08:35.33) say I mean I'm sure that there's somebody who's made it possible but the joy of magic is making a deck and then competing against a deck that somebody else made and so you know being able to compete against like an automated opponent made it easier for me to do the deck construction in the living card game and just do that. Daniel (08:42.915) Yeah, yeah, okay, okay. Kevin (08:43.562) Mm-hmm. So. Kevin (08:53.154) How does the living card game do it? Is it a timer or a, how does it solve that? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (08:56.75) It's a mix, there's like a timer, there's enemy cards that come out, you have to make progress in your goals. So, you know, basically the AI deck operates differently from the way you play. And so it's got a system that you're trying to fight against using the weapons at your command. But it's kind of got its own system for fighting you, so you don't have to like use other player cards. There's actually a set enemy that all the players are fighting against. Kevin (09:26.95) Hmm. One of the things that struck me about solo board gaming, which I enjoy as well, it's almost got a puzzle feel to it. It's almost like doing the crossword puzzle or doing something like that because you can stop and start and because you're not facing a physical opponent that might have tells or social cues. It's kind of a piece of paper. It's an automated something. Does that make sense? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (09:54.682) It does. I would say the puzzle aspect of solo gaming is part of the appeal, but there are a lot of different kinds of solo gamers. And so if you want, so in some ways I would say solo gaming can also be akin to writing a novel. If you're playing a game that has really good narrative structure, then, you know, instead it's more like you're being immersed in the story, but you can make all the choices in this choose your own adventure without having to answer to anybody else, which I sometimes appreciate because I am selfish and I want to game the way I want and I want to play what I want. Um, Kevin (09:58.597) Mm-hmm. Kevin (10:08.267) Right. Kevin (10:18.442) I do too. I know, I know, I know, I know. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Daniel (10:24.331) Yeah, I think related to that, that's one of the things I always enjoy about solo gaming is the fact that, I guess it's kind of maybe a hybrid of what you're both saying, but I can take as much time as I want to think about my next move, right? And it's like, no, and I'm not gonna, I don't feel like this, like I'm like imposing on the time with the person around the, on the other side of the table from me or an end and yeah. I have to say that I first... I was saying this before our show first our recording lives, but I first found out about you with your solo board game reviews I play a fair amount of solo board games and And I am always Really happy when I discover that a solo board game that I'm thinking about purchasing Has a review by you on YouTube because I always really appreciate your reviews And I they're always very thoughtful and thorough and I figure I have found that if you like them I usually tend to like them too, and if you have concerns I usually have some concerns too. So anyway, I recommend Liz's reviews if you haven't checked them out. They've been really helpful for me. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (11:28.794) Hey, I appreciate that. I think a lot, I mean, y'all making a podcast, you know, you know, when you make things and you put them out on the internet, you want people to, you want to imagine people are listening and interacting and that what you're doing is useful to somebody. And so it's really nice to like get some sort of feedback that is the case. Daniel (11:40.784) Yeah. Kevin (11:43.254) Cause you don't, yeah, right. Daniel (11:44.835) Yeah, no, well, it's definitely you are your videos are my go to resource for solo board game review. So, um, so what have what has playing solo games taught you over the years? Have you kind of learned some lessons from playing solo games about yourself about life about gaming? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (12:05.15) I mean, I would say, so a lot of people, I think play board games specifically to be social with other people. And I do that. I'm going to game night tomorrow night. Tomorrow's my game night. I do have friends, believe it or not, that I do game with. But one thing I really like about solo gaming is that in a lot of ways, I can tell if I really, really like a game for itself because I want to play it when I'm alone. So I think in a lot of ways, it's the true test of whether a game is for me because if I can maintain the attention span while I'm on my own and I don't need the company of others to keep me focused, then I feel pretty convinced that I like the game. I also really like very solitary experiences. Part of it is that I do really enjoy getting my alone time. Kevin (12:28.686) Mm-hmm. Daniel (12:30.343) Hmm Daniel (12:41.032) Mmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (12:50.118) I don't know if you're scratching the background, that is my cat. Kevin (12:53.802) I think your cat is making popcorn actually. Sounds like a microwave popcorn machine. Rawr. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (12:58.246) He's like a little demon cat. I love him so much. But, you know, I find also that one of the reasons I started solo gaming too, is that, you know, I got this living card game and I thought, maybe I'll get somebody else to play it with me. But that turned out to be harder than I anticipated. So I thought, well, you know what, I'll play it by myself. And I feel like that is an attitude that I've developed over the course of my life from wanting to do things and also realizing that I can't wait for other people to kind of give me permission to do the things that I want to do. So. Kevin (13:25.247) Hmm. Daniel (13:26.519) Yeah, that's good. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (13:28.15) I also go to the movies by myself. If I'm traveling, you know, usually my boyfriend likes to go with me these days, but before he was in my life, I absolutely went to the movies by myself. If I'm out alone for the day, I will 100%. If I want to eat in a restaurant by myself, I will absolutely do that. I have no shame about it whatsoever. You know, I've told this story in the context of solo gaming before. The first time I ever went abroad, I got a scholarship to go to the Goethe-Institut in Berlin for two months. Daniel (13:45.008) Yeah. Daniel (13:57.124) Wow. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (13:58.404) Oh, you know, let's go to Paris one weekend and we all agreed and everybody else chickened out and I was like, you know What? Screw that I'm gonna go to Paris and I went by myself I had a grand old time and then I came back and because I didn't I didn't know that a future summer contained Paris You know, I didn't I didn't know that was gonna happen for me so, you know, I went well I could and You know, I went to then after that I started going to the museums I wanted to go to whether or not anybody else wanted to go Daniel (14:15.494) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (14:24.474) I feel like gaming is in that same vein of like, if you want to play something and you really want to play it, then just do it. Nobody can stop you if it's a solitary experience. And I also think that... Daniel (14:32.711) Yeah. Kevin (14:35.628) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (14:38.118) As a teacher, I think about this a lot, my students concern me a little bit because the kids are generally all right. So we bemoan the youth and all that, but high schoolers are, I'm happy to tell you, generally intelligent and charming and funny, and they're everything that you kind of hope the next generation's going to be. They're generally pretty good to each other, at least in front of me. And so all the good things are generally there. But what concerns me is that they have a hard time being alone. Kevin (14:54.666) Hmm. Hmm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (15:06.526) They really, really want interaction constantly, and social media does not help. They're out texting each other until really late. They are constantly looking for stimulation that somebody else has kind of created from the outside. They have a really hard time with quiet. And I find that... concerning just because as a philosophical theme, I believe that you should be able to enjoy your own company and that it's a sign of security and like okayness with yourself and who you are that you were able to do so. Kevin (15:38.732) Right. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (15:39.022) And so I really enjoy solo gaming because I actually, you know, I'm not perfect by any stretch, right? But I do genuinely like myself and I enjoy like being in my own head for periods of time because I'm, you know, I'm comfortable with who I've turned out to be, like that's still evolving. Everybody's evolving all the time. But I would like for more people to feel that way. Kevin (15:59.478) Hmm. You- Daniel (16:00.671) I love that sense of, yeah, growing in both your comfort of being with yourself and liking yourself and not needing to rely on other people and not feel like you have to have someone's permission to do really anything. It also strikes me as you're talking, you know, so we began the conversation where you're talking about this Coptic monk that you love so much, you know, that you really resonated with. And you know, you often think about kind of the monastic life as one of kind of solitude and silence and enjoy being able to be by oneself. And then it's cool to kind of hear some similar things kind of around solo gaming as well. And I don't know if you feel like any kind of kindred spirits in that or not, but that's cool. I like it's almost like it almost sounds like it like a like a monastic sort of practice in the best way, right? In the good in the good way. And I don't know. Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (16:55.214) Oh, I think there's a lot to be learned from monks, even from me. So for those of you out there who are listening, just FYI, I am a straight up atheist. Technically I would be what you would call a weak atheist. I do not like... feel comfortable asserting for sure that there's nothing out there, but I have not seen anything to indicate it and I just live my life as if there isn't. But that doesn't mean that I don't see value in people seeing how best to live their lives and really putting a lot of thought into that. I think that what makes me happy as I learn about monastic practice is always... Actually there's a monastic story about this. Daniel (17:15.032) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (17:25.071) Yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (17:36.744) stories. One of my favorites is um there's like a novice monk and his teacher tells him okay so um monks should be like the dead and he's like what do you mean and so he says okay so here's what i want you to do i want you to go to the cemetery and i want you to praise the dead all day and tell them how wonderful they are and just really blow some smoke and then come back and report to me and so being very literalist this novice monk goes to the cemetery you know because Kevin (17:37.448) Mm-hmm. Daniel (17:37.563) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (18:06.604) back and the guy's like, okay, so tomorrow I want you to go out and I want you to insult the dead. Throw rocks, don't pee on things, maybe he told him to, I don't know, but like, you know, yell insults at the dead. And so he goes and he does that all day. F you, you're so dumb, dead people, that. And he goes back and his teacher's like, okay, so when you praise the dead, what happened? And he's like, nothing? And he's like, okay, so when you insulted the dead, what happened? nothing. It's like, okay, well that's what a monk should be like. Impervious to praise or insult. Daniel (18:37.147) Wow, wow, that is pretty good. That is pretty good. I like that, I like that. D- Kevin (18:44.202) I wonder if there seems like there's so much anxiety among kids today, and I know that makes me sound old, and there's, the Victorian era was an anxious age too, so maybe it's just modern living, or maybe we just talk about it more, I don't know. But I wonder if that inability to be by yourself and in your own head, and to not have outside stimulation, I wonder if that is somehow connected to that anxious, anxious state of, you know, I don't know, what do you think? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (19:16.51) that it's probably commented the human condition. People are always anxious, I think, about how others perceive them. It's only natural, right? If you think about the kind of species we are and how it is important for us to have social relationships, you know, even if you like to be alone, you do kind of need other people to survive. And, you know, you're part of a community, even if you're, you know, the guy on a pillar outside the community where they can see you and they know you're there, like you're still part of the community. Kevin (19:42.71) Yeah, they bring you food, right? So yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (19:43.382) You want people to know you're there. I think that we all want to be seen and we want to be heard even if we act like we don't. And I actually think that people have always felt anxious about am I doing what I'm supposed to do with my life? And am I spending my time the way that I should? And am I being a sort of person who is worthy of praise from other people? And do other people see me as that? And I think that in a way what we just do now is see more of it. about it because we have the internet. I think the internet reveals more, especially as like revealing a lot of yourself online, you know, becomes more common. I think that we just see a lot more people's raw anxieties just laid out as entertainment for others. Kevin (20:16.364) Yeah. Kevin (20:30.071) Right. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (20:31.306) And I don't, I mean obviously I put things on the internet because I want people to engage with me. But I'm also a little careful about what I put out there because I do feel reticent about putting out too much about your personal self. Some things are for you. Kevin (20:44.087) Mm-hmm. Daniel (20:47.252) Yeah, yeah. Some level of vulnerability is, is helpful and important in life, but the internet can, uh, can really, uh, take that to an unhealthy level or to ca can really open yourself up to all sorts of. hurt from all sorts of angles that you really Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (21:05.934) Also, I will never confess how many monasteries I've destroyed in the course of playing Manege Knight. Never. Kevin (21:12.694) Oh, Mage Knight, that's so great. It's so great, yeah. Daniel (21:16.549) That's great. Have you ever encountered a story of a monk playing a game? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (21:22.31) Um... Kevin (21:23.374) That's a good one. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (21:24.67) There are lots of encounters with reading, less games, at least in earlier texts, there's a lot more kind of self-seriousness. However, I do, I don't remember where the source is killing me, but I'm pretty sure that kids used to play as monks expelling demons from other kids, which is hilarious. Okay. Ha ha ha. Kevin (21:43.359) Mm-hmm. Daniel (21:44.038) That's great. My little exorcism. Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (21:48.623) Yes, exactly. Kevin (21:49.247) My little. Oh goodness. Well, thinking about historical games, and I'm guessing you're familiar with the Nicaea game. Is that right? Because you're a fan of Amabel's work. Yeah. Daniel (21:54.512) That's great. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (22:00.786) Yeah, Amabelle's Game, yeah. Daniel (22:03.013) I think I saw you had an episode about it. Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (22:05.358) Yeah, actually I interviewed her about it and we had a real blast having a good laugh about it actually. Kevin (22:11.342) So what are your thoughts of that? I've played it and it's a wonderful game and it's a wonderful teaching moment and really it's got a lot to say. So what are your thoughts about it? This is, yeah, a historical game called Nicaea, about the Council of Nicaea. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (22:20.871) Ooh, okay, so... Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (22:25.146) Amabel is such an interesting person. I really respect- how much of herself she's willing to put into her games, even games that are about history. So I think that the game is good if you're prepared for the experience that you're gonna get out of it, but it may not be good if you want pure historical instruction about Nicaea. So Nicaea is interesting because Amabel presents it as such an overly political thing. The church fathers that you're engaging with are not necessarily committed to one side or the other. They're trying to make sure that their policy, that they're on the right side going forward and they're a little bit a little worldly in that respect it's definitely you know and I think that there's a lot of truth to that to be honest like looking at the history of churches and church leaders and political politics and religion mixing you know there's always there's always gonna be problems as long as that happens and it always has happened at the same time Kevin (23:02.427) Meaning the winning side. Yeah. Yeah Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (23:21.478) you know, Emma Bell did not present. I mean, these the fact is that the beliefs that they argued about at the Council of Macy are also sincerely held. in many ways. And so I think that the game doesn't account for that aspect. Like I think that some of these people really thought it mattered, like what the relationship physically of the son to the father would be. And that, you know, like, is it a kinder egg? Is it a latte? Like, you know, do we have like a human shell with like a little God toy inside? Do we have like these natures that mix and they can't be like unmixed? You know? I mean, you know, is Jesus totally separate from God in some way? Kevin (23:48.747) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (24:00.096) but like God like elevated him like I don't know and so I think that for some people those arguments really matter, right? It's why in another little while you get these arguments about whether you can call Mary the mother of God or not. Because does she actually bear a divinity in her body? Or does she pop out a human that like becomes a god or like is touched by God? Like you know, again, this is a mess, right? But people cared enough about this to have riots in the street, kill each other, you know, write about it forever. Clearly this really mattered to somebody in a way that I personally don't have a dog in this fight. Kevin (24:21.57) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (24:33.964) You know, I find it really interesting. I really believe that people sincerely did. And so Nicaea is interesting because I think it presents the political aspect very well. And I do believe that is how Amabelle, somebody who's experienced religious trauma, understands church history. And that's what she sees when she sees the church. But I don't think that that's how they saw themselves. And I don't think that was what was happening inside of them emotionally at the time entirely. Although when Emperor Constantine tells you to get it together and come up with something, you're gonna do it. Kevin (24:48.732) Mm-hmm. Daniel (24:57.883) Hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (25:04.124) So, there's that too. Kevin (25:04.13) Bright. Daniel (25:06.171) So a couple of follow-up questions. One, just you both know more about church history than I do. I could give a definition, but I think yours would be better. What's a nutshell definition of the council than I see or for listeners who may not be familiar with it? And then secondly, I just had you said just in general, how you feel like your background as a historian informs your approach to history games in general. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (25:30.246) yeah so basically the council of mysia is the big battle like cute pokemon music Daniel (25:38.639) Hahaha Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (25:40.858) about whether we were going to go with sort of like a trinitarian idea or an arian understanding of Christianity, of Godhead. So Aries was a very popular pastor in Egypt, actually. I like studying my Egyptian monks for a number of reasons. They have lots of varying beliefs that are quite fascinating. But Aries basically felt that Christ was a creation and not actually divinity, that he was as close to God as you can get, but God made him. Daniel (25:57.184) Yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (26:09.35) And then, you know, there's the counter argument that Jesus is God, holy and substance. So that's why you say things like, we believe in one Father, one God, the Father, the Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. And then we believe in one Son, the only begotten God from God, light from light, true God, begotten, not made. Like we say these words if we go to church, right? I just had to do that for many years. I will absolutely be a good sport if dragged into one. But, you know, Kevin (26:37.218) That's great. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (26:37.478) That wording is very deliberate. There's a reason those words are there. There's a reason that we say the Nicene Creed. It's from the Council of Nicea. So a bunch of Greek-speaking theologian guys got together, argued it out, and now here we are in this modern day. Daniel (26:41.476) Yeah. Kevin (26:42.274) Mm-hmm. Daniel (26:45.275) Yeah. Daniel (26:52.183) Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Kevin (26:54.934) Yeah, yeah. 3, 3.25 in modern day Turkey. I see it was in Turkey. Yeah. Okay. This was a place. So. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (27:06.906) Yeah, well, I think it's kind of fun thinking about the church. Actually, I think about this in historical gaming as well, is that, you know, all the most important ideas in church history are really not from like the Latin speaking, Western part of the Roman Empire at all. They're happening in the East. They're happening in Turkey and in Syria and in Egypt. So we, we tend to deprivilege those areas of the world. Kevin (27:19.49) Huh. Kevin (27:24.514) That is weird. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (27:29.634) in our games and when we depict the church and when we talk about it, that's actually deeply unfair. Leo just sends over the tome of Leo. Does otherwise roll putts? Like totally boring and all this. So you know, historical gaming is also fascinating to me because we need... and I say this often so if you've heard me on another podcast bear with me. But when you're doing history you're telling two stories, right? You're telling And then in your telling of what happened, you're also telling on yourself. There's always like a parallel narrative happening. And so when we represent history and games, we're talking about our world and we're talking about their world. And you can't actually separate the two. It's actually probably true for y'all. Y'all are both pastors, right? So like, I mean, whenever you interpret a biblical story for someone, there is what the text says. Daniel (28:03.754) Mm. Kevin (28:05.165) Right. Daniel (28:06.145) Mm-hmm. Daniel (28:15.483) Okay. Yep. Kevin (28:16.934) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (28:24.454) And then the interpretation you get out of it says a lot about you and about your community, or at least the community that you're trying to form. And so, you know, it's, you know, history is the same way. It's an interpretive act and it's a fact-finding mission. And so, you know, gaming about history, I think, is really interesting because it's a way of talking about history that sometimes we don't even see as talking about history because it's not explicit. Like, it's not a book. You don't necessarily see the sources, but the world that you're creating for people to play in. Kevin (28:28.839) Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Daniel (28:30.683) Yeah. Daniel (28:38.232) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (28:53.618) the actions you're allowing them to take, the roles you're encouraging them to enter into. they all contribute to a reconstruction of the world as it was that may or may not be accurate, but what you wanted it to be or how you chose to interpret it says a lot about you and a lot about our modern day as well. So I spent a lot of time with looking at games about ancient Rome and like thinking about these things because I like to look at like the reception of ancient Rome in the modern day, because what did we keep and how do we present Romans and you know, what do we think about them now? Like all these things come out in our games actually in a way that's maybe more raw than Kevin (29:16.034) Mm-hmm. Daniel (29:20.387) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (29:29.26) book. Kevin (29:31.274) Right, because you're getting to experience it as a series of choices and not as a complete text maybe. Yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (29:38.226) Yeah, and it's also like the aesthetic that people choose and stuff tells you a lot. Daniel (29:41.784) Mm-hmm. Kevin (29:42.218) Yeah, no, I appreciate that and I always like to bring up the fact that whether it's first century Palestine or ancient Rome We really don't know what it was like for the average person because we don't have any records like that That's impossible to know. So it's a real act of the imagination to picture what it was like and whether the texts we have are just highlighting Was that what it was like for many people or just certain groups, you know, there are people walking around and Bethlehem and they didn't know what the hell was going on with anything else or they even know who the Emperor was like We don't really know and you did it's historians don't always like to acknowledge that but it's true It's there or pastors that we there's less we know than we know I mean, that's the truth of it But I've also appreciate what you said about the nice see a game Because I had a little bit the same feeling that I appreciate what it said about the politics and it is true. I mean it's there but if Daniel (30:28.527) Amen to that, yeah. Kevin (30:41.646) felt a little not exactly mean but it just pushed it really hard. And I did ask a church historian friend who commented that, well, you know, Arius was kind of a deacon, right? Like he had a Thursday, he compared it to he had a Thursday night Bible study and then he turned himself into an expert. So part of it was they were trying to contain this guy that was getting really powerful. I don't know if that's fair. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (30:54.493) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (31:00.903) Well. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (31:05.294) say that's a little bit of an unfair read of areas especially given that a lot of modern religious figures are that. No offense. Daniel (31:12.109) Hahaha Kevin (31:12.501) Sure. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (31:14.402) And the other thing is that Arius wasn't the only one who was thinking that. He was backed up by bishops who backed up his position. Most famously, probably it would be. So there's a couple of Eusebius's. So there's Eusebius of Caesarea. And then there's also God. Where's the other one from? There's other Eusebius. He ends up baptizing Constantine in the end, but he was a known Aryan sympathizer who later flip flopped and in a baptizing and for Constantine, it was life. So like Nicomedia, there we go. Kevin (31:18.998) Right, right, right. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (31:44.498) But, you know, when we talk about these things, wanting to bring it all the way down to Arius is actually a little bit unfair, given that there is a serious Arian side that was comprised of plenty of bishops. So if you think that being a bishop makes you the boss of theology, that was not the, nobody had certainty that was all that authoritative at this conference. And also, frankly, if you spend a bunch of time reading the New Testament, it is deeply unclear where they got any of this stuff. Like, I mean, I don't know. Kevin (32:11.638) Right, right. Daniel (32:12.515) Yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (32:14.532) New Testament every summer and I have never found any obvious solution to these issues by reading it. Daniel (32:21.015) Right, right, right. We've talked about Arius on the show before a little bit and Arianism, and I always feel like I need to let our listeners know, for those of us maybe who aren't familiar with the conversation, that we talk about Arius and Arianism, this is referring to a theological movement in the early church and is unrelated, except by unfortunate phonetics, to the Arianism we talk about with white supremacy and things like that. That is, that's. Kevin (32:21.334) Right. Yeah. Kevin (32:49.278) Yes, I always try to warn people. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (32:50.402) Oh yes, this is Aries A-R-I-U-S. Daniel (32:50.96) Tooth. Right, right. So just for our listeners who may be unfamiliar with those terms, this is a completely different thing. It's from early church and yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it just sounds the same. Like... Kevin (32:55.606) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (33:01.45) It's just a coincidence. Yeah. Good point, Daniel. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (33:01.96) Yeah. Daniel (33:07.639) I can't think of an example. So anyway, we'll move on. Liz, I was wondering, you suggested some great questions ahead of time. And one of them was raising the question of ethical implications of solo gaming and whether the ethics of solo gaming is different from the ethics of multiplayer gaming. And I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on that because it got me thinking about some stuff too that I'm eager to jump in about. But what came to mind when you when you discussed that, when you brought that up. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (33:40.682) Actually, it's probably because I've been playing video games a lot. I've been playing Baldur's Gate 3, which is absolutely fantastic. If you're out there and you don't mind some nudity in your video games... Daniel (33:44.397) Oh yeah. Kevin (33:45.542) I see a lot about that. Is it good? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (33:51.75) should play Baldur's Gate 3, it's pretty good. But I'm definitely going on Baldur's Gate 3 and I'm doing a bunch of different romances and you have to decide if you're gonna be nice or mean to people and you got these different dialogue choices. And so I like to save and then try different outcomes and then just laugh at what happens. But it's very chaotic. But on the table, there's also something to that, right? Because, you know, there are people who are much more aggressive with other humans, they're aggressive players. I'm actually like fairly nice to other people. I have a hard time being mean in board games and involve other people. But Kevin (34:08.546) thousand. Kevin (34:21.314) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (34:21.643) But in a solo game against an opponent that's not alive and can't get mad, I'm like ruthless, just mean. Like I will absolutely do horrible attacking things and things that like I might think twice about right against another person. And I always find it really interesting because you know back to enjoying your own company right? I think that the true mark of who you are as a person is like just how far you'll go when you're by yourself. And I think that games are a very interesting test of that because it's like oh what would Daniel (34:33.401) Yeah. Daniel (34:45.543) Hmm. Daniel (34:48.891) Hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (34:51.624) was watching. And I feel like part of it is fantasy, right? Like I love to play like horrible like little rogues and like run out stealing stuff and like being ridiculous in like fantasy video games. And obviously I would never do that in real life alone or with other people. But I also think that solo gaming opens up the possibility to know that about yourself because like you know how comfortable is this for me? Is this something that I actually want to live out or am I doing this for a laugh? Like I really I find that solo gaming offers Daniel (34:53.034) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (35:21.724) like, how I feel about different types of actions in a way that even playing Dungeons and Dragons with other people, you know, might not, they wouldn't, might not give that perspective. And I think that when you're playing historical games... Daniel (35:34.058) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (35:37.242) It also opens up lots of possibilities. So for example, I personally get skeeved out by playing Nazis. I don't like it. A lot of people feel that way in historical games. There are plenty of people who have no problem with it and will very vociferously enjoy telling you so on your YouTube videos. My real big, my real big kind of skeeve out is I really hate playing the Confederacy. I really don't like it. It is gross to me. So that's not true for everybody's experience, but you know, there are definitely certain like roles that only it's taken games. Solo gaming is interesting because it allows me to either play against that side without asking a human to take that role. Or it allows me to take on a role that I don't necessarily like very much, but I have to sit with it. Because I'm by myself and I can sit with it and like examine how it is feeling. So you know, one of the games I reviewed pretty recently was In Magnificent Style Pick As Charge. It's a Herman Lundman game. And I just said outright, like some people are like, why did you review it if you didn't think you'd like it? Well, I don't actually think that's a criterion for why you would review things or not. But... Daniel (36:18.684) Hmm. Daniel (36:37.431) Right, right, right. Kevin (36:37.695) Right. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (36:39.934) But I really got a lot even though I didn't ultimately keep the game or feel that the game itself, the gameplay is super fun. So I'm probably gonna crowbar it's the same system but it's D-Day, much better. But it was interesting to play it and try to win while doing a part of a battle where I was playing people that I did not want to win ever. and also, you know, helping them participate in one of what I think is a really stupid military move, but some people kind of see as like a big moment of glory in the history of the Old South. And so it was really interesting to play the game and have to play enough times to be able to really review it, because I had to sit with who I was being in that game and there was no one to kind of be like, you're fine, you have to do it yourself because you're playing alone. And so I thought it was a very productive experience, even though I, you know, said, yeah this is an awesome game if you can stand it, I can't. But I think that solo gaming offers you a lot of meditative space for that, which I really appreciate. Daniel (37:41.36) Right, right. Daniel (37:46.311) Hmm. It strikes me how much your discussion of solo gaming kind of returns to these themes of solo gaming kind of as a way of getting to know oneself better. I mean, it's kind of self-discovery in a way, and both in terms of, as you were saying at the beginning of the episode, feeling kind of agency and I can do this and I don't have to, you know, but also in terms of like... Kevin (37:46.914) Right. Daniel (38:13.479) how far am I willing to go on something? You know, and what am I, that's, meditation is a meditative practice is a really cool way to describe that. That's, I like that, I like that. I think you're, the question, when you suggested it really resonated with me because I'm also that way, Liz, that I am, when I'm playing with another person, Kevin and I have talked about this, and Kevin, I wanna hear your thoughts on this because I think, I think it's something you've, Kevin (38:24.753) Mm-hmm. Daniel (38:42.907) think about as well. When I'm playing with another person, I generally feel really guilty if I do anything bad to them. You know, I like, that's kind of why I like euros so much. I like euros because I can just work here on my spreadsheet while you work on your spreadsheet and we're fine at the end of it. And I feel, you know, but I feel like, oh, if I tear something down that you've worked out, oh, but if I do a solo game, I don't feel any guilt about just, I just going hard on. Kevin (38:58.582) Hahaha Kevin (39:11.435) Yeah, that's good. Daniel (39:11.719) on the AI bot, just keep hitting it again and again and again. And it doesn't even feel like I'm hitting it. It just feels like I'm doing this machine to generate points or something kind of. So anyway, that really resonated with me. Kevin, any thoughts from you on any of these issues? Kevin (39:26.186) No, it's really cool to formalize that idea that there's something about not having a person at the table to worry about or, yeah, like you can just focus on the game and also what it's doing to you is really powerful. Reminds me of a, there's a Buddhist story. I don't have any sources or anything, but maybe I'll recognize it or maybe I just made it up. I don't know. But there's something about if the canoe runs into your canoe. and no one else is in the other canoe, you don't get angry. It's like, well, this canoe just, do y'all know this one? That canoe just floated into mine. But if someone else was in the other canoe and ran into your canoe, you're like, oh, you idiot, I hate you, I'm gonna kill your pets, right? And so what's the difference? It was just the presence of the other person that makes it, all of a sudden, makes you so angry and vengeful. And solo games are kinda like that, like, Daniel (40:02.5) No, no. Daniel (40:10.459) Ha ha Daniel (40:21.828) Ah, interesting, interesting. Yeah. Kevin (40:24.63) Yeah, if the bot beats you, you're just like, well, guess I should have played better. Or maybe the designer was too mean, I don't know. But yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (40:33.087) Oh no, solo designers are supposed to be mean. You're not supposed to win solo games. What are you talking about? Kevin (40:36.754) You're probably right. I have learned from solo games, I'm really not a good strategist with board games and it's made me get better. Because I tend to want to do the action that's cool, not the action that's gonna win. And especially against a solo bot, there is no mercy. Like every move has to be getting you closer to winning. So yeah, it's a more conniving experience, which I appreciate. Daniel (40:36.903) Ha ha ha. Daniel (40:44.542) Mm-hmm. Daniel (41:03.599) Kevin and I have been talking offline about this book, Games, Art as Agency, CT and Nguyen. And his whole thing is games are a way of exploring agency and just kind of taking agency to kind of an art, a level of art, you know, and just, and it strikes me that's really what, solo games are especially good at that, that it's all about growing in this. in this ability, in this agency, whatever the game opens up for you, just again and again and again, as you grow that skill and grow that ability. Yeah, that's cool. Kevin (41:42.518) Yeah, agency is, I guess, different modalities of acting. Is that, that's what he's talking about, like different styles of, yeah. Daniel (41:48.177) Yeah, I think that's right. Unless it's the FBI, maybe that's is that what it means or that's right. Kevin (41:53.75) write the agency. Liz have you tried or you gonna try the American presidency which is talked about as an eight-hour solo extravaganza? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (41:54.595) Mmm, central intelligence. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (42:05.394) Yes, I do have it. I am waiting for my moments. Basically, I'm planning to do it. I just have a bunch of stuff that keeps flying in the door. But I definitely need to play it. I want to record a podcast episode with some people about this, actually, later in the season. Because kind of what I want to talk about is, did this game earn its weight and earn its length? And how do I feel about chunky games in general? I think that there's a lot of interesting conversations we had about... Daniel (42:25.685) Mmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (42:33.374) whether things are heavy for the sake of being heavy, or whether they are purposefully the way they are and you can't actually make any cuts. I'm very interested in gaming and what complexity really means and how to deal with bloat. I find all of that stuff worth talking about. I love heavy games, but heavy doesn't necessarily mean long, and I don't think it necessarily means... Kevin (42:42.947) Hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (42:59.178) complicated in exactly the way that you would think. So like, Pac's Renaissance is considered a heavy game. And so think what you will about Phil Eklund, you know, I have my own issues with his viewpoints on many issues. I mean, the guy's a brilliant game designer and Pac's Renaissance is a very interesting game. But the way it works, you know, it's a heavy game, but you can also play it on a normal game night because it doesn't take that long to play. It's that the mechanisms take time to learn and seeing their interconnectivity takes time. Kevin (43:29.558) Hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (43:29.618) Whereas, you know, that doesn't mean like, oh, I need to spend five hours reading the rules. It means, oh, this isn't that hard to play, but oh man, I missed that connection. I'm an idiot. Like. Ha ha ha. Kevin (43:38.27) Right this breaks that yeah, and there are other games that sprawl for the sake of sprawl Which sometimes I like because what you want to do is get in a state of flow, right? You just want to kind of lose track of time for several hours And sometimes those games that are very soothing even like say a blackjack type game Assuming you're not out of money like you can just sort of Pass the time in a really soothing way It's like working a puzzle almost So yeah, I appreciate bloat as long as I know I'm getting into or someone else isn't getting frustrated Yeah Kato Before he kills himself Kato Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (44:14.406) Indeed. Hang on, I'm gonna keep Kato up. Daniel (44:18.555) Kato! Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (44:23.242) Better not walk back in, little beast. Welcome here. Kevin (44:26.386) is one of the pagans that Dante puts in heaven. Or in purgatory. Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (44:28.866) Bye, everyone. Daniel (44:29.935) Really? Oh, interesting. Kevin (44:35.342) because he kills himself because of Julius. Yeah, I keep, I keep, I keep, well, I'm having to with this sermon series and then I keep kind of, yeah, he's just a really interesting dude. I'm using the Inferno. Daniel (44:35.779) You've become a Dante expert. Daniel (44:46.223) What is the sermon series? No problem. Nice, nice. No problem, no problem. I wanted to ask as a fan of historical games and as someone who's thought a lot about heavy games versus light games, and do you earn your weight as a game, is it possible to have a good historical game that's also a light game? Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (44:47.25) Sorry about that. Can't. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (44:52.681) I'm gonna go. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (45:14.33) I certainly hope so because David Thompson and I have been endeavoring to design one. Daniel (45:17.751) Nice, nice, great, great. I bet, well, then it must be possible for sure, for sure. That's great, that's great. Any, anything that you feel comfortable saying about it now or is that, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (45:28.602) Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we've been open about the whole process. So David and I are working on a game called Night Witches. It is about Soviet female night bombers of World War II. So you basically just fly harassment missions against the Germans all night, every night. They did it for years and years. Yay! Daniel (45:38.668) Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (45:43.139) I like the theme, that sounds great. Daniel (45:45.539) I've heard of them, yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (45:47.59) And so we signed it with Fort Circle. We're basically about to enter playtesting. The game is designed but needs the tightening that comes with getting a bunch of playtesters to look at it. And gotta make sure the rule book is good and all kind of stuff. We talked to an artist, but I can't name them publicly yet. But I'm very happy. And so, yeah, I mean, it's my first game design. It's actually been really wonderful. Yeah. Daniel (46:05.98) Oh, nice, nice. Kevin (46:10.35) Congratulations! That's awesome! A board game designer too! I'm impressed. Daniel (46:12.799) How exciting! Yeah, congratulations, that's wonderful. Do you know publication time yet, date, or any of that? No, no. Cool, well we will look for it. And is the name Night Witches, or what's the... does you have a name yet? Oh, I have to look it up. Cool, very nice, very nice. Congratulations! Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (46:21.286) It'll probably hit Kickstarter sometime next year. In 2024. Yeah. Kevin (46:25.518) That is so exciting. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (46:29.19) Yeah, it's on board game geek is night, which is. Thank you. Yeah, it's actually that's been a really interesting process because. Co-designing something with someone, you know, David Thompson and I were already friends before But you know when you decide that you're gonna bark on something like that together It's like okay, are we gonna be better friends or we're gonna hate each other after this? I have great news, which is that we get along better than ever it's actually been a wonderful process, but David's a really good communicator and You know, if you don't know who David is everybody out there David Thompson decided a lot of different games so like undaunted and war chest and Pavlov's house and castle itter and resist Yeah Daniel (46:49.304) Right. That's great. That... Daniel (47:03.643) Nice, nice. Kevin (47:06.178) Oh, Pavlov's House. That's a great one. I have that one. That's a great solo game. Yeah. OK. That's awesome. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (47:10.463) Yeah, so David's my co-designer for Night Witches. It's a one or two player co-op. And he's got a lot of experience with me. This is my first game, but we managed to have a really good and healthy partnership despite that. And so now we have this game that's like a really weird mix of his and my sensibilities. It's like if you just took parts of our brains and just splat, you would have Night Witches. And it's been really a fun process. Kevin (47:23.026) Mm-hmm. Daniel (47:31.483) That's great. Daniel (47:37.727) We have to look forward to that. That sounds, that's great. That's great. Congratulations. Well, Liz, go ahead. Kevin (47:37.858) That's exciting. Kevin (47:41.994) Yep. So do you think history can be represented in the game, Liz? Sounds like a yes. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (47:48.018) Yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah, absolutely. And it depends on what you want to represent. You can't ever capture the whole thing, right? But history in games has lots of very interesting expressions. So you can see something very weird and finicky, like Republic of Rome from both Abel and Hill. There are certainly aspects of the Roman Empire it doesn't get across, but there are aspects that just feel spot on. it's really fascinating to play. Or like Cole Worley is a fantastic game designer. He is responsible for amazing historical games like Pest Pemir or John Company, like the second editions of both. They've been updated from his earliest adventures. But I would say those are fascinating because it's like reading a historical... Kevin (48:08.988) That's cool. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (48:29.706) It's almost like a dissertation, but it's in the form of a game. Like, you're looking at how people interact and what's happening in this time period, and it's represented in game form, but I find it very informative for these different time periods. I think I learn a lot from playing his stuff. You know, there's a lot of ways that you can choose to do history in a game. And, you know, the people are doing it. It's actually one of the best games I've played this year. Kevin (48:32.878) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (48:53.674) probably Landon Freedom by Alex Knight. It's absolutely fantastic. It has a solo mode, it's fine. What you wanna do is play it with three players and do it semi-co-op, because that's really the game as it's meant to be. But Landon Freedom is about the Spanish Civil War. So basically it's like before fascism takes over, the anarchists, the communists, and the moderates are all trying to work together to be the fascists, but also trying to come out on top when they theoretically win. And so you're trying to both hold off fascism and get yours and get an edge on everybody else. And the decisions the game forces you to make are so messy. And it's very hard to win because people will betray each other and choose to do things for themselves instead of for the whole of the country. And it is delightful. Daniel (49:39.813) Uhhh... Daniel (49:43.504) Hehehe Kevin (49:44.406) That sounds like an awesome experience. Wow, I didn't know that one. Land and freedom. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (49:48.902) Yeah, Blue Panther published it, so it's like a print on demand. It's not as stinky as Blue Panther games used to be, but you don't get it for the Stone Mire games production about it. You should get it because it's a great game. Kevin (50:02.114) Right, right. Daniel (50:04.027) Kevin's a huge Cole Whirly fan as well that you spoke his language there when you were yeah. Yeah Kevin (50:07.87) Yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan. I agree, he does really interesting stuff that teaches you something, which first you're not aware of it, and then later you're like, think about it the next thing, you're like, I think I know what he was trying to say, maybe, like it kinda haunts me, some of the stuff. So yeah, that is cool, that is awesome. Yeah. Daniel (50:27.963) Well, Liz, I wanted to ask about also, you had shared earlier, you know, we've had guests on the show from a variety of faith traditions. You've talked about kind of those faith traditions shape their experience of games. We've had a variety of Christian backgrounds and Muslim perspective, Jewish, Buddhist. And you'd mentioned earlier, you're an atheist. Would you mind just sharing, how has that shaped your experience of? of gaming. And I'd be interested to hear how you kind of see those two parts of yourself coming together. Please. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (51:03.366) Yeah, just out of curiosity, am I the first atheist that's been on this show? Kevin (51:08.718) At least I admitted it. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (51:08.99) Alright, I will be the one to single-handedly drag everyone down. I'm kidding. No, no, no. No. Atheists tend to be very non-evangelical, actually. I think it's really weird if you don't think that there's anything to be that concerned about what other people think. But I'm interested in other people's experiences, but I'm not interested in directing those experiences, if that makes sense. But uh. Daniel (51:10.322) I think so. Yeah. What do you think, Kevin? Yeah. You're good. Kevin (51:15.102) Right? Daniel (51:26.173) Hehehe Daniel (51:31.48) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (51:31.686) Mm-hmm. That's that's a wise statement. Yeah Daniel (51:34.956) Yeah, that is, that is, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (51:38.404) But, um... I would say that gaming is actually a really interesting space to be in because it feels like a lot of the very dominant forces of the end gaming actually come from Christian communities and Christian spaces, like most notably Tom Vassal of the Dice Tower. I've worked at the Dice Tower in the past. Tom and I have a perfectly respectful relationship. We've never had a serious conversation about religion. That may be for the best, but he knew what I was when he brought me on board and didn't mind. And that's also actually true for the school where I routinely teach the New Testament in the summers. Daniel (52:02.848) Uh huh, uh huh. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (52:09.26) what they're getting with me. I'm actually a fantastic New Testament teacher, believe it or not. But you can actually completely trust me to teach your children about the New Testament and they come out just fine. Whatever background they came in with or wherever they're going, just help them on their journey and they're good to go. Daniel (52:13.111) I bet, I bet. Daniel (52:20.123) Hehehe Daniel (52:26.822) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (52:29.118) But for gaming, actually, I think that this ties into actually how we talk about gaming and play. Because one of the most interesting things, I got solitary before it was a YouTube channel, was a blog. I just started a blog in 2016, and it was blogging about games. And I still write on my site sometimes, but I actually really like to make videos. Who knew? I feel really comfortable talking out how I feel about stuff. Daniel (52:49.604) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (52:51.246) But I, you know, my views jumped and I was like, hey, somebody's ruined my blog. That's cool. And like the school nurse was visiting when I checked the stats and I mentioned it. And she's like, Liz, why don't you write about something important? And I thought that was such a really interesting thing to say, because to me, games are quite important. But also, you know, what makes something important? It's a really good question. You know, unlike maybe many people on the show who would place a certain tradition or document or perceived, you know, supernatural being at the center of their purpose, as like a driving force for their life. I really don't have that. I don't see the world as particularly purpose driven. I Daniel (53:11.371) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (53:32.352) ye make and that you have to decide and that you have to live with what you decided because you only have a limited amount of time and you have to do the best that you can with what you've got. And so my goal of my life is to make sure that by the time I get to the end of it, and you never know what's gonna end, that's it's an unpredictable thing right? That I feel good about how I spend my time and for the most part I really do feel that way. Like you know one of the reasons I became a teacher is because I feel like it's a good way to Daniel (53:50.669) Right, yeah, yeah. Kevin (53:50.731) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (54:02.332) work, my work is not 100% vanities, right? Like it's, you know, I'm going and doing something that matters to somebody in some way. And like even if you can't see the results of your teaching right away, and very often you don't, the kids just kind of take whatever you gave them and just leave with it and you don't even know if they took it. They might have left it on the floor with the hand up they left behind. Sometimes you hear from your students who have gotten older and you realize that maybe you did mean something, right? Or you'll hear from a Daniel (54:20.698) Yeah. Kevin (54:21.587) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (54:32.232) talks about your class all the time. And like, I would never know that, right? And so I have to live, right, with this uncertainty of whether what I'm doing matters all the time. But I am able to tell myself that it does because I get enough indicators. Daniel (54:46.339) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (54:47.442) But I also think that some of the most important things in our lives are things that have no obvious meaning. Like for example, you know, we've been talking about art a lot in the board game community, right? Or literature, you know, the experiences that you have of other people's minds or the things that you can learn. I mean, if you're gonna die and it all goes up in smoke, I mean, does it really matter? I would still say yes, because I feel that my life is enriched by mentally communing with others through the things that they make. Kevin (54:49.71) Excuse me. Daniel (55:15.056) Hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (55:17.416) through experiencing those things with other people that I know in real life. Daniel (55:20.88) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (55:22.074) You know, one of the reasons I like being a classicist is that, you know, knowing Latin and knowing Greek really gives you a lot of access to very interesting thoughts from the ancient world. And like, it's really funny. You know, those people don't really feel dead to you. If you spend enough time reading them, like I taught, I forget that people aren't there sometimes, but one of my favorite, um, short texts to read with my seniors who are at upper level Latin is, uh, excerpts from Seneca's, uh, on the shortness of life. He's an interesting guy. You know, he was a Stoic philosopher who really professed all these great ideas, Kevin (55:30.667) Right. Daniel (55:37.027) Huh. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (55:52.168) ended up getting very political, becoming Nero's tutor, really trying to influence him, and then ultimately being forced to kill himself by Nero. So, you know, he's the ultimate philosopher who got lured in by worldly things and then didn't go very well. But on the shortness of life is great because he writes about, he claims, and I don't know if I agree with this, I feel like I've got so much life in me. I just don't know that I'll ever have enough time. But he says that life is long if you know how to use it and that the biggest resource that we waste, and this I do think is true, is time. That time is a non-renewable resource and you don't know how much you have. Kevin (56:24.791) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (56:30.848) we just give it so readily to things that don't matter. And so I think a lot, because I really do think my time is very finite about what I'm going to give that time to. Daniel (56:34.727) Hmm. Daniel (56:43.599) Yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (56:43.942) And so why do I give so much of it to games? I would say the same reason that I spend a lot of my time reading. I think that, you know, if you have, the only person that's going to be with you when you die is you, really. So like, first of all, I do think you have to like your own company. This is why I do think about this very often. But I also think that you should spend your life on at least like things that are beautiful, things that other people have left behind who've gone on the same journey you're going on, which is just being alive on the planet. And also thinking about what you'll leave behind. You know, one of the reasons I have changed a lot of my board game coverage is I used to just do straight reviews and I do those. And I do like tutorials. But the thing that I value the most is actually my podcast. Because I feel like the conversations that I have on my podcast are pushing for something a little bit bigger than was this game fun? Daniel (57:30.631) Mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (57:30.862) And so my hope, obviously, right, is that those kinds of conversations will be useful to someone when the new hotness is gone and when new games have come out and we forgot the old games, that there will be something in those conversations that's like worth something to somebody in five years, in 10 years, in 15 years, or like when there is no Liz anymore, but maybe YouTube will still be around. And so I think a lot about that. And you know, Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (58:00.996) he and I had a troubled relationship. We made our peace, thankfully, but you know we had a tough time when I was in school. But his best advice was be useful. He talked a lot about how the scholarship that you publish in your life will be just kind of trampled on by future people who want to disagree with you and say you're wrong and this is the new hot thing and the new hot way of seeing stuff. And he's right, you know, if you read back like New Testament scholarships, a wonderful example of this, right? If you like read through the history of it, the three centuries is stunning. But you know, the things that last the longest are the things that are the most useful. And so I think a lot about making myself useful, making things that like mean something to somebody else, because then you are more likely to get like a ping back that what you did meant something. And I find a lot of comfort in that. Like, maybe it'll all ultimately be meaningless, like the sun will explode and the earth will be gone. But I mean... Daniel (58:51.483) Hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (59:00.546) I'm not gonna be here for that, so I'm gonna make the most of what I've got here. Daniel (59:04.139) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I like that sense of intentionality about making the most use of this limited resource of time that we have and seeing games as a worthwhile way to spend that time because of the beauty, because of the connection, because of the folks who've come before us, who've left it behind in a world often when they're not seen as that worthwhile. Yeah, thank you. That's great. Kevin (59:04.142) Mm-hmm. Kevin (59:32.006) Yeah, yeah, we all crave rich experiences because as you said, time is limited. And that depends on the person, what's a rich experience. But yeah, games for people that have that itch, games are very rewarding. And yeah. Daniel (59:46.179) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (59:46.598) Yeah. And I think it's so sad that we socially want to discount play. Like... Kevin (59:51.522) Hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (59:51.65) Why is being serious so much more grown up and so much more important? Like even like when I became a man I put away childish things. Like what exactly do you mean by that buddy? Like because you know what does it mean to be childish versus what does it mean to be playful? Like I think that we are too tempted especially you know in the course of like in a life where you know in our society we're very much encouraged to be a workaholic, be productive. You know you need to be productive and you need to make money. Like all those things that you're supposed to do Kevin (01:00:00.215) Right. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:00:21.544) Why are we just counting, you know, the things that actually make your life rich when you could be doing it? You know, like, what are you doing that's worth more than that, really? Daniel (01:00:29.379) You know, yeah, you know. Kevin (01:00:32.526) Hmm. Daniel (01:00:34.9) Something that hit me recently, the value of play is something we talk a lot about on this podcast, and the theological weight of that. And you're exactly right, we discount that. And that passage, that passage, 1 Corinthians 13, where Paul says that, right? He says, when I became a child, when I became a man, I put away childish things, which we read at every wedding and everything. It hit me the other day. the first time when I was reading through that, I've always read that as a passage of him saying, well, now I need to be grown up, you know, and now I need to, but I'm not sure after all this talk about the theology of play and the value of play. I'm not sure, but that he wasn't saying that as a regret, or at least it hit me as a regret as I was reading it. I mean, maybe he was saying, I'm not sure why I had to put away that child of stuff, like maybe kind of as a regret. Kevin (01:01:21.684) Hmm. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:01:21.817) Hahaha Daniel (01:01:32.367) Anyway, I don't know, but I am with you. I were with you, yeah. Kevin (01:01:33.698) Funny, because I always thought of that passage as more about being about maturity. Which doesn't mean you don't have play, it just means he's not as immature as he used to be about, hey that's my red ball type thing like a child. So not so much. That's interesting, yeah. I don't know what the commentators say. Daniel (01:01:40.657) Mm-hmm. Daniel (01:01:47.792) Oh, yeah, yeah. Not necessarily. Daniel (01:01:54.991) That's a good point. Yeah. Cool. Thank you. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:01:58.19) Yeah, like what does it mean to be childish? It's a good question, right? Like, you know, I don't... first of all, I 100% teach my children in Latin class about uh, farts in Latin and Roman toilets and the sponge on a stick. I mean, because it's funny. Like, I'm... I'm wildly childish in that way, but I'm not sorry about it and I don't ever Kevin (01:02:01.621) Mm-hmm. Kevin (01:02:11.702) That's awesome. No, it's everyone wants to know. No one wants to ask. That's great. Yeah. Daniel (01:02:11.907) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (01:02:22.615) Yeah, yeah. Well, I know we're approaching our end here. Could we get a favorite or recommended solo game? Could we each do one? Kevin (01:02:34.474) Or give us three like Ezra Klein show. Daniel (01:02:37.059) Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are three? Or your thoughts on that, Liz? Kevin (01:02:39.938) three books you would recommend, three solo experiences. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:02:40.638) Ooh. So my very baseline recommendation is always, if you have a cooperative game at your house or a game with the solo mode that you already like and that you already bought, check if the solo mode is good. on BGG or something and then try it because what you already like is more likely to give you a good solo experience. But beyond that, a lot of it depends on the kind of game area you are. Like if you want to try historical gaming, then maybe if you want to try something that's like super get your feet wet gently, you might want to try something like resist, which was done by David Thompson, Trevor Benjamin and Roger Tinkersley. Kevin (01:02:59.17) That's a great recommendation. Daniel (01:02:59.524) Yeah, yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:03:17.934) You could do, you know, if you want something light, if you want a light kind of worker placement that's historically based, you could do something like Maquis, which is like a very tense, tiny little worker placement that was originally like a print play, I think, was published by Side Room Games. It's also a nice app. If you wanted Maquis, M-A-Q-U-I-S, it's a French resistance game. If you want something really chunky and fantasy, Daniel (01:03:34.563) Mikey okay cool nice Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:03:44.922) I mean, so Mage Knight is my favorite solo game of all time. It's been replaced by Spirit Island, but Mage Knight's a pain in the butt to learn. And if you want to commit to something, I think that Mage Knight's a great commitment. If you want something that's kind of in the middle and maybe so you can also play co-op, but on the chunky end, you're going to want something. Like I would say too many bones is a big commitment, but it's nicer to co-op in something like Mage Knight. Mage Knight really should only be played solo because it's so chunky. Kevin (01:03:48.299) Really? Daniel (01:04:11.431) That's what I heard. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:04:11.93) If you want to play Roman games, I love Stilicho Last of the Romans. It's like a states of siege game where you've got these cards and you're trying to fend off invasions and pretend you're emperors as Stilicho, while somebody's also plotting against you in Rome. You know, Stilicho had a barbarian quote-unquote like background, but he, you know, was really a great general for a young emperor until he got, you know, executed for reasons unknown. I don't think he actually did anything. I think he just lost politically. Kevin (01:04:43.694) Wut Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:04:44.187) You know, if you want to try something that's just historically fascinating, you should try Pax Vermeer. So Cole Whirly did that design, but Ricky Royal did a brilliant solo mode named Wakhan. She's like a brutal opponent in that game. Kevin (01:04:56.034) Yeah. Ricky Royal taught me how to play Mage Knight, because as you said, it's very hard to learn and the manual is kind of, it's all there. It's just kind of bizarre. I don't know how to put it. Like it doesn't leave it out. It's just hard to find anything. And Ricky Royal's videos taught me Mage Knight, yeah. And he did the John Company solo, which is a really good solo too, I think. Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:05:17.286) Yeah, but... did. He's fabulous. And honestly, I actually think that one of the best things to do is just go on Facebook and join solo board gamers or board games for one, BG4-1, whichever one you want to do, because people just post about what they're playing and it really gives you a good sense of what is fun and what people are communally enjoying. If you want to do things on the war and historical game and then Solitaire War Gamers, I think is the name, or Solitaire War Games is the Facebook group for that. I often find that looking at what other people are playing and deciding whether I'm jealous of them and want to play it myself, is a good indicator of where I should get something. Ha ha ha! Kevin (01:05:51.566) Yeah Daniel (01:05:52.143) That's a good idea. Yeah. That looks so fun. Yeah, yeah. Ha ha ha. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:05:57.166) Exactly. Whatever's giving you FOMO might be a good place to start. Kevin (01:05:58.179) Yeah, jealousy. That's funny. What about you, Daniel? Daniel (01:06:03.751) It's a good measure. Daniel (01:06:08.399) Um, so in anticipation of this, I don't really know how to, how to answer it. Cause I, I play a lot of solo games, some that come with the game and some that are designed that way, and then some are just off of BGG. I'm just going to, I'm going to list, uh, my, my top three board games that I've played solo the most, the most plays, but they're really, this is not exciting. That's because I can play these like in five or 10 minutes because I play at the end of the day all the time. Orchard. The nine card, yeah, I just play that at the end of a long day. I play that one a lot. Sprolopolis, kind of in the same category, a little thing. And then this one wasn't designed as a solo game, but there's a solo mode on BGG that I've really fallen in love with. And I play this a lot as a solo game. Oh my goods, Alex Pfister, Alexander Pfister. Anyway, those are my top three solo. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:06:38.887) Oh, that's a cute one. Kevin (01:06:42.827) Orchard. Daniel (01:07:06.395) plays for me in terms of the gets the most plays for me. They're all very simple, small games, but. Kevin (01:07:11.554) Thought you liked illustration, Solo. I can't guess what I drew. It's amazing. It's called sketching. Daniel (01:07:14.215) D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D TELESTRATION's solo is amazing. It's amazing. I have to, yeah, I have to wait like a good six months between each turn, because I forget that, to allow time to forget what I drew the previous one. But yeah, no, probably my heaviest one that I like to play. TAPESTRY has a solo mode that I like, and I played that one a lot, solo. So how about you, Kevin? Kevin (01:07:27.454) Right, right. Kevin (01:07:31.438) Classic. Kevin (01:07:41.706) Right, right. Yeah, it's tough. The one I really like is Wayfarers of the South Tigris. It's just got a really... The Garfield games always have really satisfying solo. And that's the one that for whatever reason, I can remember the rules, I can get it out. It's kind of chunky, but it doesn't take forever. I love Mage Knight solo, but it's always a bit of I have to get reintroduced to it. So I'm gonna play it once and screw it up. Daniel (01:07:49.435) Hmm. Kevin (01:08:09.646) Then I get into it and it's kind of a long project, but that is, Mage Knight is awesome. So yeah, and then John Company is fun solo. That's a way I've learned the game. So maybe those, yeah. Daniel (01:08:26.031) Those are good. Thank you all. Kevin (01:08:29.067) Yeah. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:08:31.378) Yeah, I just, I do want to plug. If you want to check out lists of solo games, the People's Choice Top 200 over on Wargaming Geek is like the hobbyist tops choices. They're great. And then this will come out after I've released. So Brant from Armchair Dragons and I pulled specifically a historical slash Wargaming community about their favorites. And so we've got a list out of like top historical and war games that are people's favorites. So if you just want to go see like what the public recommends, there's, there's places for that now. Kevin (01:08:58.322) Awesome. And Liz, where can people find you, speaking of those things? Those items are linked in your social media, I guess. You're connected to them. The ones you're everywhere. Beyond solitaire. Okay? So, I'm going to go ahead and get started. Daniel (01:08:59.195) Awesome, thank you. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:09:06.774) Oh yeah, I'm everywhere as Beyond Solitaire. Like any social media platform, beyondsolitaire.net, Beyond Solitaire podcast, Beyond Solitaire Gmail. I'm everywhere as Beyond Solitaire. I'm super easy to find. Brand consistency. Kevin (01:09:17.229) Hehehehe Daniel (01:09:18.567) Great. Kevin (01:09:22.918) 101. Yep, that's great. And folks, thanks for listening. Anything else, Daniel? Check us out, BoardGameFaith. Daniel (01:09:29.979) I don't, yep, check us out on boardgamefaith.com. You can reach us at boardgamefaith.gmail.com. Yeah, and we really appreciate everyone spending time with us. Thanks for taking the time out of your day. It is a gift and a joy, and Liz especially, it's a gift and joy to get to spend time with you. Thank you so much for being with us today. This has been great. Liz (Beyond Solitaire) (01:09:53.362) Hey, it was super fun to talk to y'all, thank you. Kevin (01:09:53.558) Yep. Thank you. Bye bye, everybody. Daniel (01:09:56.815) Bye bye.