Daniel (00:05.478) Do you feel like you have enough time to do all the things you want to do in life? All the things you're expected to do in life? If the answer is no, you are not alone. So many of us struggle to find all the time we feel we need for... the people that we love and for work and for taking care of ourselves and for faith and for playing games. But what if time management is a battle we can never truly win? And what if the answer is not to fight against our limits at all, but to embrace them, to celebrate them? Today, we're considering a book that asks these questions and more. 4,000 Weeks by Oliver Berkman is a... a revelation of a book with profound implications for how we live, love, work, believe, and even play games. All on this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Daniel (01:45.69) Hello and welcome to Board Game Faith, everyone. It is great to have you here. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:53.445) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (01:55.742) And we want to say a word of thanks to all of you who are listening today on the podcast or watching on YouTube. We are really grateful for you and really appreciate your spending some time with us. Thank you so much. Kevin, I was thinking as we were dancing during our theme song, only our YouTube viewers get to view our dancing. They may not even see our dancing. I don't know, do they? That's probably for the best. Yeah. You're a good dancer. Kevin (02:18.186) No they don't because I dropped the video in there. This is for the best. Some things cannot be unseen. I'm an excellent dancer. Yep, no I'm not. I'm not. No I'm not. Stop lying. It's Lent. Daniel, don't lie during Lent. Daniel (02:25.306) but no, I'm not, yeah, you are, you're famous for that. No, that's true, it's true. It is lent, in the Christian tradition, it's lent. For those of you, so I gave you this book, but I said it was just to borrow it. I lent it to you and I never got it back. It was, no, it was. Kevin (02:38.782) And Lent means what, Daniel? It means Daniel. It's Anglo Saxon North. Kevin (02:50.685) Yeah. Daniel (02:53.09) No, it was, it's a, it refers to the six weeks before, um, Good Friday and Easter, Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, um, traditionally a season of kind of spiritually getting ready for that. I believe you might know this better than I do, but I believe it relates to the same word that gives us lengthened. Like it refers to the lengthening of the days, the lengthening of sunlight, something like that. Kevin (03:13.563) I didn't know that. It's Anglo-Saxon for spring, but it may be also related to lengthen. Yeah, the days are lengthening. Yeah. So, you know, English is weird because we have Latin, we have German, we have French, and we have Anglo-Saxon, which is why, which is why we have the words poultry and chicken, because poultry is French and chicken is Anglo-Saxon. Daniel (03:17.862) Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know it was Anglo-Saxon for spring. Cool, interesting. Daniel (03:40.907) I didn't know that. Kevin (03:42.158) So we have multiple words sometimes for the same thing. It's because we have all these, we're such a hodgepodge. Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? So chicken has that almost guttural, you could hear a Viking going, chicken, Odinson chicken. Daniel (03:49.891) You know and I- Daniel (03:56.758) And I think our word hen relates to the German word for chicken. I think so. I think. Interesting. I, but I didn't know that about chicken. It does sound chicken does sound very, very guttural. Yeah. Kevin (04:00.694) Does it? I didn't know that. Kevin (04:07.594) Yeah, because the word mister, I assume, comes from the German Meister, right? And hamburger comes from hamburger. So yeah, it's an odd language. I pity those that must learn it as adults. It's gotta be terrible, yeah. Daniel (04:13.222) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Daniel (04:24.142) Yeah, yeah. It's gotta be a tough language to learn. Yeah, yeah. Well, as the start of Lent in the Christian tradition and Christian circles, and you might be in that circle, listener or viewer, or you might not be, and either way is okay, you are welcome here. That's right, that's right. We are at Ecumedical, the open podcast. We are glad you're here. No, no. Kevin (04:40.914) Either way, we wish you a happy Lent. Kevin (04:47.466) Right? And length is usually not a time of happiness, so that's partly why I'm saying that tongue-in-cheek. Daniel (04:54.038) No, that's probably we shouldn't develop a Lenten dance or something. But, but we start off with Ash Wednesday. And I wanted to tell you in our church, at least we started off lunch with Ash Wednesday, a lot of churches do. It's this day where you, you remember your mortality, right? Which is kind of talking about today. You, you. Kevin (05:11.088) Or your sin. It could be focused on sin and repentance or death. Daniel (05:15.022) Right, right. And traditionally you receive a mark of the cross and ashes on your forehead. So I kind of got a little chuckle though this past Ash Wednesday. Kevin, another pastor at our church is Pastor Jewel and she's really great. She's awesome. Pastor Amy is also wonderful at the church. But Jewel and I were leading the Ash Wednesday service and so I was marking the cross in Ash. Kevin (05:16.626) the two themes there. Daniel (05:42.146) on about half of the congregation as they came forward. And Pastor Jewell was doing it on the other half of the congregations that came forward. And after that, the markings, everyone sitting down, and of course, we're facing the congregation. And it was so obvious, it was so obvious which crosses Jewell had made and which crosses I had made. Because Jewell's were like these super neat little, little like 90 degree angle crosses. Oh, she's an artist. And so they looked like crosses. Kevin (06:03.294) Right, right. Kevin (06:06.79) Okay. Yeah. Daniel (06:07.966) And the other half, it was like a big black smudge, just like a smudge all over their forehead. In fact, I had someone give me grief afterward. She came up to me and she said, you really need to up your cross game because she kind of wished she had been in Pastor Jule's line because much. So next year I'm using a stencil. Kevin (06:11.307) Right, right. Kevin (06:17.494) That's so funny. Kevin (06:23.906) The sheep and the goats were already evident. Who was in which group? Actually, you remind me, I have a funny lint story. That, yeah, this was years ago, but we had a church, we had a cat that hung around the church and came in the office sometime. We call him CC, church cat. Well, we had a Monday Thursday service, and there's different ways of doing a Monday Thursday service, but the one that we had, there was a large cross and you had a nail, and you would go out. Daniel (06:28.049) That's right, that's right. So anyway. Oh, I want to hear it. Daniel (06:42.403) Yeah. Kevin (06:52.986) single file and each person put a nail in these pre-drilled holes and sort of symbolizing that you're you know you're nailing your sins to the cross so it's a you know supposed to it's ultimately supposed to be a good thing even though it's a little maybe somber but it was taking forever like the lime was taking forever and we're like what is going on and we finally looked around and see the church cat was right in front of the cross Daniel (06:57.282) Right? Right. Kevin (07:19.018) So people would put their nail in the cross and then pet the cat and walk away. So it was like tripling the time because the cat was just there, you know, completely oblivious to our Lord's sufferings. And that's why animals are wonderful. They're like, oh, you have a somber service. I will, I will totally jeopardize the somberness here. So they're like, so nail, pet the cat, nail, pet the cat. She just sat there kind of mangy. Daniel (07:25.466) That's great. Daniel (07:32.198) That's so great. They are. Daniel (07:40.589) That's so great. It is. Daniel (07:48.462) That's such a great illustration of, it's what we talk about in our family too, which is like just pets unapologetic obliviousness to the reality that they're not the center of everything. Right? Just that they were just, you know, that the cat is the cat, here's the cat in a Monday, Thursday service and the cat thinks, clearly this is all about me. You know, clearly everyone is coming forward to pet me. And that's great. Kevin (08:01.708) Yes. Kevin (08:09.774) Right. Exactly. I am the savior of the universe. Ooh, ooh, Daniel, Daniel! I just felt a small Segway bell ring. Daniel (08:17.89) I love that story. Church Cat. Yeah. Daniel (08:23.77) Oh, tell me, run with it. Yes, run with it. Kevin (08:25.678) Because you know, Daniel, okay, it's almost as if animals don't have a sense of time. Right? Like you have somewhere to be and it's clearly, you know, everyone knows the banks close at five o'clock And you've got to go in physically to the bank which still happens occasionally and it's four fifty p.m And you only have ten minutes and the dog wants, you know some attention It's as if the dog doesn't operate on the times of western industrial society Daniel (08:48.038) Yes. Daniel (08:51.383) Yes. Daniel (08:58.726) The cats and animals and dogs do not value time. They do not value time. And I have to say, Kevin, that is a great segue, and I can't resist. It reminds me, though, of one of my dad's favorite jokes. May I share this? About animals and time. So it may not be funny. I haven't told it in 30 years, so I don't know if it's even funny anymore. But according to this... To this... Kevin (09:03.01) They don't value time. Kevin (09:12.702) Okay, yeah, okay. Kevin (09:18.958) Oh my gosh, this is almost like a premiere. This is the premiere of Daniel's joke. Daniel (09:24.95) I mean, it'll be over before you know it. It's not very, it's so it's over fast. But my dad told a story about a person who was driving down the road through the country and they came across a farmer who was holding, like straining to hold up a pig to an apple tree so that the pig could eat an apple off the apple tree. Have you heard this? You know, and obviously the farmer is really straining. Yes, yes. So obviously the farmer. Kevin (09:45.566) No, no, I like it already. I know jokes about people driving and seeing pigs. So I always like this genre. Yeah Daniel (09:53.295) is straining to hold this pig up to an apple tree to eat the apple. And the person rolled out the window and said, hey, what are you doing? And the farmer said, I'm holding up this pig so that he can eat the apple tree. And the person in the car says, well, doesn't that take a lot of time? And the farmer says, eh, what is time to a pig? Kevin (10:03.993) Of course. Kevin (10:11.952) Yeah Daniel (10:15.202) So there you go. So that's in memory of my dad. But so yeah, animals don't have a good sense of time, right? They're fine with you spending all afternoon holding them up so they can eat apples off of a tree. But why would that be a problem to us as human beings? Kevin (10:17.531) That's so funny. What is time to a pig? No, no. Kevin (10:33.546) Well, it's a problem to us because, of course, what we're doing is super important. And if we just get these things done, then we will finally be able to rest and be happy. And so we just need to get our to-do lists and our ducks in a row, and then we can go on vacation, or we can retire, and all of a sudden everything will change and we'll never feel like we have anything to do again. And that's why animals are difficult. Because humans must be right, correct? Daniel (10:46.465) Mm-hmm. Daniel (10:58.254) Yep, yep, yep. We certainly have not shown any error in judgment over human history. And that statement, what you just said, this idea, this belief that if we just manage our time better, if we just get things done, if we just get things to the list, then we will finally be happy, then things will finally be good. Kevin (11:09.957) Right. Oppenheimer, anyone? Kevin (11:23.062) Mm-hmm. Daniel (11:27.03) is the central, dare I say conceit, the central conceit that this book, 4,000 Weeks, Time Management for Mortals by Oliver Berkman seeks to kind of explode, right? Or seeks to kind of poke at. And so yeah, so we're discussing this book today. It's Boarding and Faith Book Club. 4,000 Weeks, those of you who are viewers on YouTube can see it. Kevin (11:41.676) Yeah. Kevin (11:51.174) And this... Yep, I have the audiobook so I can only show you... if I printed out the receipt I could show that to you, but... But I will say this has nothing to do with games at all, correct? Or does it? Dun dun dun! Because uh, Senor Berkman we shall call him... He does not talk about games at all in this book, but you and I both had segue bells ringing in our heads. Daniel (12:05.81) Or does it? Dun dun dun. Daniel (12:17.602) Yeah, yeah, I think he gets to game adjacent in it, especially one section. That spoiler, spoiler alert involves Rod Stewart, but we'll get to that in a second. Yeah, so, but yeah, so this 4,000 weeks time measurement for mortals Oliver Berkman. Where does the title come from Kevin for those viewers that listeners may be wondering? Kevin (12:23.197) He's game curious. Kevin (12:40.342) Ah, so interesting, because he says if you ask people how many weeks comprise the normal average lifespan of a human being, people give all sorts of crazy numbers. Forty thousand, four hundred thousand, our sense of time is so wrong. It's four thousand weeks is I think an 80 year lifespan. 80 times 52, something like that. Yeah. Daniel (12:58.842) Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And some change. Yeah. Kevin (13:08.17) So he's sort of rounding. And of course, some people get more and some get less, but that's roughly what you have in your lifetime. And the question is, how will you manage it and what sort of life do you wanna live? And does your relationship with time make that 4,000 weeks brighter and better or worser? Daniel (13:29.094) Right? Kevin (13:30.646) which is why he calls it Time Management for Mortals, because this is a book about mortality, so it is a good Linton study. So you had commented that it came to him as a conversion moment that he tells in the book. What was that? Daniel (13:33.701) Yeah. Daniel (13:37.584) Yeah. Daniel (13:45.722) Yeah, that's what really sucked me in this book. Near the beginning, I got it because I was thinking, I really need to manage my time better. So I just searched, what's a good time management book? And he talks about this conversion moment. He doesn't describe it as conversion moment, but I do. Near the beginning of the book, apparently Oliver Berkman just made Kevin (13:55.126) Right. Daniel (14:08.654) quite a career for himself being kind of what he himself calls like a productivity nerd, right, or a productivity geek. Like he writes about how to be more productive, more efficient, how to manage things better. Like this is what he does. He writes books on it and writes articles for it for newspapers. And he talks about this moment not too long ago sitting on a bench in Brooklyn, I believe, when all of a sudden it hit him that none of it actually works. Kevin (14:13.666) Mm-hmm. Kevin (14:38.19) the one thing they don't want you to know. Daniel (14:38.406) And yeah, that none of it actually works. That kind of his phrase, like the more we try to master time, the more time will master us. That we're never gonna find a magic formula that makes us feel like we can get all of our to-do lists done, that we're gonna get everything. that we'll finally get to that promised land over the hill where we got everything done, everything is great, and we can finally just be happy. That that's a lie, right? It's kind of an illusion. And that's how he begins the book. It's a great beginning. Kevin (15:12.844) Yeah. Yeah, it's powerful and I could identify with them because I have used different productivity systems. I kind of enjoy doing it and I think others do too. You like exploring them and testing them. It's almost like trying out a new board game. And so I've bought different apps and things. So I totally got where he's coming from. And I had never thought of the fact that, as he says, if you are more productive, all that it means is that you work more. Daniel (15:23.817) Yeah. Daniel (15:28.506) Yeah. Yep, yeah, me too. Daniel (15:40.422) Mm-hmm. Kevin (15:40.502) Because it never ends. Like, the more, the better you are at email, the more you respond to email, the more responsive you are, the more people email you. And the more you end up creating, and you get yourself in a state of anxiety of always getting stuff done, and you can't enjoy anything. And so he's actually saying it is a, it's fool's gold, really. It looks like gold, but it's actually fake. It's just silicon. Yeah. Daniel (15:48.6) Yep. Daniel (15:56.142) Right, right. Daniel (16:00.91) Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, silicon, yeah. Kevin (16:07.498) Yeah, so he's not saying we shouldn't be efficient or we shouldn't try to do things well or correctly, but he's kind of, we'll say, he also says you have to have a sense of failure throughout all of it, which I totally love. And I think he's absolutely right. I think he is absolutely right. I mean, if he's wrong, show me the money, show me. I don't see how he's wrong. But anyway, getting, yeah. Daniel (16:20.962) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (16:31.598) No, no, too. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so he begins. Right. Just I was just agreeing to embracing the things that we so often spend our lives trying to fight against or to pretend isn't there. So, but yeah, so he begins by talking about time, right? Even our relationship with time. And what struck you with some of his conversation about time? Kevin (16:48.471) Yeah. Kevin (16:53.302) Well, I love that he gets into how artificial time is today, that it's really a product of modern capitalism and commerce. And some of those are wonderful things. Like the planes need, the reason our clocks are synchronized, as I had read it, I don't know if he mentions this, is the train system. That at a point in the 1800s, the trains all had, everyone had local time, so they had to have multiple clocks in each train station and train to tell you. because it may be, it's 905 in Boston is actually 853 in New York. They're same time zone, but they count time a little differently, and there is one day where they actually synchronized all the clocks so that they could fix that problem. So now it's even more awesome that with cell phones, we have perfectly synced time. We don't even have to even, because I remember having to set your digital or analog clock occasionally, right? They would get off. Daniel (17:36.89) That's wild. Yeah. Daniel (17:49.674) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (17:52.894) And that seems great, but it's very oppressive because we're measuring everything in units of time. Our work, our effectiveness, how we spend our time, we're always measuring. And yeah, it really struck me that in the Middle Ages, people measured time by how long it took to urinate. Is that not crazy? Or how long it took? Yeah, he mentions that. Or they call it a miseria, how long it takes to say Psalm 51. Daniel (17:58.276) Yeah. Daniel (18:11.682) Really? I miss that. Daniel (18:20.282) to say it's interesting, yeah, yeah. Kevin (18:22.422) because they didn't have clocks. And you might have had a town clock that rang a bell on the hour, but what was time? What was five minutes? They had no concept of it. So they measured it by sort of vague notions of how they lived. And yeah, and they were not oppressed by the clock as these poor Uber drivers are, something like that, or delivery drivers. Daniel (18:30.638) Right, right. Daniel (18:34.723) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (18:42.538) Yeah, I love his discussion of the kind of medieval concept of time. And he's quick to say, you know, there are many good things about not being in the middle ages. So, you know, he wasn't saying, you know, it's returned to medieval times. But he's just saying, you know, that the concept of time was so different. You know, the sun went down. It was time to stop working. You know, the sun comes up. It's time to start. It's time to start working. You know, and. Right. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (18:52.874) Yes. Yeah, we're not. Kevin (19:01.73) Right. Yeah, there was no work at night because it was pitch black. So you went inside and maybe you could read or maybe not or maybe lit some candles and played some music and then you went to bed. And when the sun came up, you got up. Daniel (19:13.922) Yeah, yeah. And you're right. How, how differently we, we perceive time now, I think you maybe have in the notes. And I think you mentioned this as well. This, this, he didn't originate it, but he was quoting some philosopher who talks about how we, how we moderns view time as like as boxes on a conveyor belt. Right. And like this, this endless conveyor belt sends us like, you know, like one hour. Kevin (19:36.77) bright. Daniel (19:42.254) blocks and we have to fill in the blocks as much as we can, cram as much as we can, and then it's going to go down the conveyor belt and here comes the next hour block and we have to cram it as much as we can. Time for that. And if we don't, then we feel guilty, right? We feel, oh, I could have filled in this block more, you know? And it's an... Kevin (19:53.316) So crazy. Kevin (19:58.822) Oh, you know what drives me crazy is calendar apps always assume something's an hour and you'll see it with people. And so that means if there's only 20 minutes that's really needed for the meeting, people show up late. They complain about how busy they are. The stuff that needs to be addressed is addressed. And then people talk about how busy they are. And then it takes an hour. You're like, well, why did we spend 40 minutes? Daniel (20:04.624) Hmm. Kevin (20:24.678) And partly people aren't paying attention because they're on their phones. And you're like, well, if we're all so busy, why are we... Why do we just assume this has to be an hour? Why couldn't it be 20 minutes or eight? What about 18 or 53? But we don't like that. We like nice round numbers. So we think of it as an hour and we divide the day up. But the sun in the day cares nothing for our little hourly mile mark. You know, like a mile marker itself is arbitrary or a click or kilometer. All these things are arbitrary constants. Daniel (20:36.675) Right. Daniel (20:49.584) Right. Kevin (20:53.358) that then crush us. It's so weird. Yeah, we think of these, what? Daniel (20:53.59) Right. Yeah. You know it's not arbitrary. the metric system. Kevin (21:03.265) Did you know the metric system is actually in the Bible and the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita? It's amazing. It's all... it's a foundational theological belief. Daniel (21:09.914) That's great, that's great. Daniel (21:14.53) Yeah, give us base 10. Anyway, yes. And so, yeah, and so he. I think he really sees that as one of the as kind of the core of the problem in that we see. We see modern life as a battle with time. Kevin (21:20.856) 100-01-00-01-1-1-0-1 Doctor? Daniel (21:40.674) Right. And, and it's a battle. Ultimately, we will lose that we, we can't, if we're trying to battle time, we'll always lose it. It will always, it will always get the best of us. Kevin (21:40.93) Yeah. Kevin (21:51.19) Because what are we? We ultimately are. Wanna be Catholics, we wish we were Catholic. No, we are time itself, like that's the tough, we're mortal, but also we are actually creatures of time. And to battle time is to actually battle ourselves in a way that is oppressive, yeah. Like Heidegger, yeah, maybe you wanna read Heidegger. I know of him. Daniel (21:55.75) Methodists. No, no, that's right. Sorry. We're mortal. We're mortal. That's right. Sorry. Mortal. We are. We are time. Yes. Daniel (22:14.958) battle ourselves. Yeah, who did he quote Heidegger? Heidegger said that or something that yeah, which is a yeah. Kevin (22:24.534) I think I can spell his name, I've never actually read him, but yeah, that we are, in a sense, all we are is what we have paid attention to, or what we've paid attention to through time. That's the sum of our identity. And so to battle that is to deny how God created us, which is, you know, God must love history because God made it, and God made time. Daniel (22:32.058) Mm-hmm. Daniel (22:38.306) Right? Right. Daniel (22:43.907) Yeah. Daniel (22:47.138) Right, right, right. Kevin (22:49.61) and we're traveling through it and we need to embrace it for what it is instead of trying to make it something it's not. Daniel (22:58.17) So when we, yeah, if we see life as kind of a battle with time, we're battling ourselves, right? And we're just kind of doing violence and harm. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (23:03.442) Yeah, we're battling a very humanity. Yeah, so AI and stuff it would be so or aliens may have a very different understanding and that would be so cool or presumably angels. But for us, we are time bound. Daniel (23:19.946) Yeah. So one way, so then he explores, you know, these ways that we, I think he might say kind of failed attempts or flawed attempts to relate to time. And one of them that we already mentioned to you was efficiency, right? That we try to be so efficient. And I think as you said, you know, he's saying, he's not saying we shouldn't be efficient, you know, to try to, but... But I think he also tries to lift up some dangers we can get into, right, when efficiency is kind of our god. Kevin (23:54.701) Mm-hmm. Right, it is an idolatry. I thought of that a lot in this book as idolatry. Yeah, if efficiency is our god, then you're never going to be happy. You're always going to be trying to optimize, and you're always going to be restless. And if you're waiting, if you spend a lifetime trying to get to a moment such as the dream vacation or retirement, well, surprise sucker, you're not going to be able to enjoy it because you're so twisted towards efficiency. Daniel (24:02.134) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (24:22.33) Yes. Kevin (24:26.102) You're going to be sitting on that pull deck twiddling your thumbs like I got to do something. You are what you do, right? If you're unable to relax. Daniel (24:26.232) Yes. Daniel (24:29.846) Yes, yes, exactly. If we see ourselves, yep. One of the biggest revelations of this book for me was this idea that of the instrumentalization of time, the instrumentalization of time. And our whole, our modern society is built on this. We might say capitalism is built on this. Maybe you talk about the Protestant work ethic is built on this, but this instrument, instrumentalization of time that Daniel (25:05.778) you know, our economic system or modern society instrumentalizes everything and everyone, including me, including, you know, I'm, to some extent, I'm a cog in a machine, you know, that's trying to produce something, we're all kind of cog in a machine. But he says we do this, even for time, right? And so that, because, so what does that mean, the example as well? We have to do really good in school and get good grades. Why? So that Kevin (25:17.07) Mm-hmm. Kevin (25:22.52) Right. Daniel (25:33.986) we can get into college and get into a good college, whatever. You get to college. Well, I have to do really good in college. Why? So that I can get a good job. All right, so that I get to the job. I have to work really hard at my job. Why? So that I can get a promotion. Right? Well, I get a promotion. So why do that? So that, and it keeps going on and on and on, so that everything you're doing in the present is in service to some future moment. Right? And. Kevin (25:36.688) Bye. Kevin (26:02.466) Right. Daniel (26:02.774) And it sets up this dynamic you mentioned there at the beginning, that someday I'll be happy, right? Someday I'll make it there. Someday everything will be great. But right now, I've got to work, I've got to instrumentalize my time. I have to have this be in service to the future, so that when the future gets there, I'll finally be happy. But the problem is, it's never the future, right? The future is a mental construct. Kevin (26:20.266) Mm-hmm. Daniel (26:29.346) The only thing we ever have is the present. And if our present moments are always in service of the future, we will never be happy, right? We will never be satisfied and content. Kevin (26:37.642) And the Apostle Paul has this, I think it's in 1 Corinthians, he says, you know, now is the day of salvation, kind of saying that, like, it gets picked up later by St. Augustine. We say tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, but tomorrow never comes. Because, yeah, as you're saying, like, in a weird way, the future never exists. And so what we do is we rob the present of any of its joys because it's always being made, you know, it's a mule being made to service the future. Daniel (26:44.628) Yess Daniel (26:58.479) Right. Kevin (27:07.738) and yeah, it's so profound and true and it's obvious, but we don't think about it. We've been so trapped by the measurement of time, of clocking in and out, and I've long struggled with this with ministry, that some people really think churches ought to be like banks that are nine to five type thing, and that's when you think about it's a very odd concept. Daniel (27:12.291) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (27:31.65) Yeah. Kevin (27:32.306) Why do we think they should work like a—you know, a bank is there for certain services, but churches don't typically work that way. Like, people don't walk in wanting to withdraw cash. They might walk in if there's a problem or issue, but church is also about visiting nursing homes and— Daniel (27:39.703) Right, right, right. Daniel (27:50.966) Exactly. Kevin (27:51.998) you know, like things happen outside the church. So for some reason in the 20th century, people began to think of them as if they were local businesses, but they would operate very differently if that were true. Daniel (28:00.581) Mm-hmm. Right, right. Yeah, the church is a strange animal. Kevin (28:09.29) Right. Well, I think it's more cultural than church, but it has definitely been... Church in the 20th and 21st century has been a strange animal because of these influences. So yeah, he makes the great, great point, and I've long thought of this, that people are so impatient with microwave ovens, which are so fast that they actually open the door before it goes off. So you are more impatient with a 20-second microwave. Daniel (28:13.142) Right, true, true. Daniel (28:21.125) Yeah. Daniel (28:32.246) Right. Kevin (28:38.914) experience than you would be if you were, say, growing tomatoes or something else, right? Like, you kind of, it's all about expectations, and if you expected it to be fast, you're frustrated that it wasn't ready already. Daniel (28:43.669) Right, right. Daniel (28:51.734) Right, right. He makes that point. Yeah, that you would think that becoming more efficient with things, time saving things, would allow us to be more relaxed. I mean, that was the promise, right, of every efficiency, you know, we'd be more relaxed. But it doesn't. It just makes us more patient. You're right. And I love that example you said. He says, how many times have you walked into the your office kitchen, wherever you work, if you work in a place with an office kitchen, and there's always like six or seven seconds left on the microwave? Kevin (28:54.242) Yeah. Kevin (29:01.666) That was The Promise. Kevin (29:07.209) So weird. Kevin (29:13.453) Mm-hmm. Kevin (29:21.467) Yes, yes, yes. Daniel (29:21.608) seconds to get... And I do that too, I do that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (29:27.786) I do it too. I have a electric kettle and it's a cool one in some ways, but it doesn't beep when it's ready. Or it does a subtle one, but then immediately starts cooling. So you really kind of have to stand there with it, almost babysit it. Because you can't go do something else and wait for it to beep because you won't hear it. But why not? Like, what am I, you know... Daniel (29:40.769) Okay, okay. Oh yeah. Daniel (29:49.094) Okay, okay. Kevin (29:52.674) Why don't I just sit, stand there and just enjoy the, it only takes like 40 seconds, it's not long, but I'm tempted to multitask. Daniel (29:52.72) What? What will it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Pull out the phone, answer some email. At least that's what I would do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. So much of this touches on spiritual matters. I mean, you just a moment ago quoted Saint Paul and Augustine. Oliver Birkman really. Kevin (30:04.854) Yeah, just start. Yeah, tidy up something or whatever Kevin (30:18.094) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:22.382) draws extensively from a lot of spiritual traditions in this book. He also quotes a lot of Christian tradition and Jewish tradition and Buddhism and other traditions as well. And I said in the intro what a revelation this book was, at least kind of for me. But it really, it really wasn't that way. You know, I thought I was getting a book on how to answer more emails more efficiently. And it's more like Kevin (30:26.122) He does, he does. Kevin (30:50.907) Mm-hmm. Daniel (30:51.682) Like, it's not like the meaning of life, you know, it's like, it's like about, it's so, it's so, it's really good. It's really good. Not to, we're not being paid by Oliver Berkman to say this. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Berkman. Kevin (30:54.079) It is, it is. Kevin (30:58.922) Yeah, and I like how he quotes... No, no, but I'm sure he's listening to this podcast because I think he gets this because we get him. I like how he also quotes the religious traditions that he's not sort of chumming up to them. He's not out to score points for or against. He's just like, hey, religions agree with this and here's where they've agreed with it. And then he moves on. So he's very authentic in how he draws from them without any chip on his shoulder either trying to prove or disprove. Daniel (31:12.567) Mm-hmm. Daniel (31:20.446) Yeah. Daniel (31:26.902) Right, right. Kevin (31:27.17) He doesn't, he's never snarky, he's very appreciative. And I like that, I really like that, yeah. And I love the one, I love, love the one so much about the Hindu guru who said, do you want to know my secret? I don't mind what happens next, which is, I assume, an intentional pun, both that Daniel (31:30.328) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (31:41.107) Oh yes! Kevin (31:47.902) He's not worrying about it, but also he's not gonna let it sit in his mind. So there's a bit of a pun there about the mind. But the secret of enjoying the present is deciding that you won't really mind what happens next. So good. I loved it. Daniel (31:52.207) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (32:00.482) Yeah, yeah, that was so good. Related to that is something else you said that really stuck with me that I've been trying to practice and embrace, but not, not doing a very good job at it. But also you said one of the keys to eating quite a bit this way, but something to the effect of one of the keys to having peace of mind is to let go of your demand. That the future conform to your expectations. And that was so good. Isn't that? I'm so good. You know, and I've. Kevin (32:28.107) Yeah. Daniel (32:30.742) Because I know that is, you know, how much stress and anxiety. And also, just to be real, as a person of faith, prayer. Do I spend all the time trying to get the future to conform to my desires? Right? And... Kevin (32:43.56) Mm-hmm. Kevin (32:50.102) Right. Daniel (32:56.398) And there's something so liberating about. Daniel (33:02.426) That's not my job. I really don't have, I can't, nor can it be my job. I cannot demand that the future conform to what I want it for it to be. That doesn't mean we can't make plans. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (33:04.27) Right. Kevin (33:13.95) No, a proper relationship is curiosity, which is an antidote to anxiety, is to approach things with curiosity. So you're open and you're interested, but you're not trying to control it. Yeah, and it's so hard if you're of an anxious bent, which I am, but life is so much more rewarding when you allow it to surprise you instead of trying to make it be what you wanna be. Daniel (33:22.595) Yeah. Daniel (33:26.786) Right, right. Daniel (33:31.854) Yep, me too. Daniel (33:39.158) Yeah. He talks about developing a taste for problems and expect problems, a kind of curiosity. Like you said, have problems. He says he feels like we're going through, most of us, many of us, go through life with this unspoken assumption that problems should never happen. And if they do, it's like a great injustice. And it's like, that's just not true. It's like, problems are going to happen, so expect them and become like a... Kevin (33:49.174) Yeah. Kevin (34:00.178) Right, it's so true. It's so, oh. Right. Daniel (34:07.554) Like a connoisseur problem. It's like, like find some, expect them and try to, as much as you can, see them as challenges to overcome, you know, or, you know, be curious about them. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Kevin (34:19.434) Yeah, and that they're always going to be there. You will never not have challenges. When you're older, you're going to have health challenges. You're going to have to be worried about family and friends. Life is a series of challenges and it is odd. I don't know if it's consumerism that we just kind of expect that we will be happy like we expect that. You can walk into a store and buy exactly what you want and not have to wait or be inconvenienced or have anyone in your way. You can get the color you want, and if you don't, you can complain or ask if there's some in the back, right? They always think there's a solution. They promise solutions. And so we get so used to that, we think it applies to everything, but no, no. Daniel (34:42.424) Yeah. Daniel (34:50.05) Right. Daniel (34:53.666) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (34:57.794) Yeah. Well, I know. Kevin (34:59.81) Yeah, there's always challenges. Daniel (35:02.794) We had talked, I know you had a section about kind of the second major part of this is thinking about how it relates to rest and play and games. But before we get to that, do you mind if I just bring up also, he has this great section where he talks about the joy of settling and the joy of missing out. That's that connect to YouTube or? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (35:20.363) Yes. Kevin (35:24.166) Absolutely, because when I taught at Pfeiffer with some of the students, I felt that easy push that they are given, which is, what do you want to major in? What do you want to be in your group? And I'm thinking, these are 18, 19 year olds. How dare we ask them that? And if you ask most adults, they aren't doing what they thought they were doing. They're 18. That's ridiculous. You can ask them what they like and encourage them to do that. But... Daniel (35:37.786) Mm-hmm. Daniel (35:42.379) Exactly. Daniel (35:47.235) Right. Kevin (35:51.062) They should pursue their interests and they should settle and they should network. But they do not mean gosh to set them up for that kind of failure. To say well here's what you're going to be and just your major and oh well you messed up because you chose the wrong major. Well how are you supposed to know your brain still eight years out from final formation. Like you're saying about the future they should enjoy being a student and learning. Daniel (35:55.652) Mm-hmm. Daniel (35:59.214) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (36:06.78) Yeah. Absolutely. Daniel (36:14.763) Right, right. Kevin (36:15.754) Right? And enjoy the present. They should prepare for the future, but college is not about getting a job. College is about college. Daniel (36:23.882) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great connection with the college student experience. I didn't think about that, but you're right. That is so. Kevin (36:31.21) Well, it's been mine, so I immediately connected. I know what he's getting. Or that's how I would connect it with it, because I was like, yeah, I saw this. And I never wanted to say, ask them, what do you want to major in? That's just, or what do you want to do with the rest of your life? Like, I want to rock. Remember, was it Twisted Sister? What do you want to do for the rest of your life? I want to rock. I mean, that was a great answer. Like, that's about it. And at 18, that's okay. You go rock, buddy. What were your thoughts on it? Daniel (36:42.778) Right. Right. Daniel (36:51.775) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (36:56.706) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I guess I was just thinking about it in terms of, you know, there's kind of this inclination, either, I don't know whether it's intrinsic to the human heart or whether we're taught it from our culture, but to. Kevin (36:59.694) about the settling topic. Daniel (37:12.238) you know, always kind of keep your options open, you know, always never, never commit to one thing because then once you're committed, then you're saying no to other options, right? What you're, once you commit to one road, you're closing down other roads. And so, so you don't want to commit so that you can go down as many, you can have, have that option in the future of going down a different road. But he said that the problem with that is, um, Kevin (37:24.599) Mm-hmm. Daniel (37:39.13) that there is a certain joy. and blessing, to use a religious word, that comes with the depth. of choosing a road and sticking on it that you can't get if you're just always trying to keep your options open. And you won't get it initially either. I guess a couple things come to my mind, I guess from my own experience. You know, Daniel (38:12.014) They say some of the most productive work for a pastor in a church is like between years five and seven, you know, and I found that to be true that it just takes, it just takes years of getting to know each other as a church and as a pastor and getting to care for each other and learning you can trust each other. And you, if you come in there and instantly think, you know, okay, you know, we're going to, you know, we're going to do all these things. Kevin (38:29.467) Hmm. Daniel (38:41.214) oftentimes, sometimes it can be not too good, the results of that, because you've skipped over the period of just living life together where that nurtures a kind of depth to that relationship that you can't hurry. It just takes, there's no substitute for time and building and the other thing that makes you think about is like marriage, like a good marriage, right? Like, you know, I'm Kevin (38:53.389) Right. Kevin (39:02.633) Oh, so good. Yeah. Daniel (39:10.458) not to get too gushy or sentimental, but you know, I'm just, I'm just, I'm so thankful for Kristen and um, I just, um, you know, just adore her and she, but, and we married a long time and, and like every couple, you know, and, and she, we've talked about this, she doesn't mind me sharing it, you know, we have arguments at times, we don't get along, things like that, but the blessing of those times is you come out on the other side, And you learn that you can go through arguments and disagreements and still have the other person love you, right, and still care about each other. And you don't know that if you're always keeping your options open, right? Because if you're always keeping your options open, then when that first argument comes, then you go in a different direction, or something like that, right? Because you want to explore another option. Anyway, that's kind of what you make me think about. Yeah. Kevin (39:45.398) Right. Kevin (40:00.745) Right, right. Yeah, or you keep waiting to meet the perfect person. And they explore this sometimes in movies. I think that sometimes a perfect person is right there, but they just don't see them, because they're like, well, I want this, this. I want somebody that was on The Bachelor, and I want this. And so they spend years waiting or trying to find the perfect person, and they could have had a lot of happiness before then. Daniel (40:07.555) Right? Daniel (40:15.171) Yeah. Daniel (40:25.486) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (40:25.822) It also reminds me of that old joke, I'm sure everybody knows, about the guy that's, you know, there's a flood and he goes up on the roof of his house and prays that God will send him a miracle, right? And so a rowboat comes by and he's like, can we help you? Like, no, God's going to give me a miracle. And then I forget a helicopter comes by and then something else. Do you remember? There's always three. I forget the theorem. And they find a way he. So he dies, which is, and that's the end of the joke. Daniel (40:35.256) Yes? Daniel (40:43.395) Yep. Daniel (40:48.642) Yeah, it's... yeah. I don't remember either. Yeah. Kevin (40:55.118) He died and he goes to heaven. He's like, I prayed for a miracle, God, where were you? And God's like, well, I sent you a rowboat and a helicopter, but he kept waiting for the perfect miracle. But, you know, there they were. And it wasn't good enough. So I think, yeah, the idea of just committing to smaller steps is humans were scared of big projects, were scared of big things. So one answer to that is to simply focus on the next step. Daniel (40:56.535) The end. Daniel (41:01.996) That's right. Right, right. Yep, yep. Daniel (41:15.715) Yeah. Daniel (41:20.962) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (41:21.634) So to be a musician, well, you should start listening to music, and you should try to play it, and you should sing. Well, I don't have a perfect music teacher. Well, maybe you just start singing in the church choir, or the temple choir, or the school choir. Well, I don't like that teacher. Well, who cares? You're learning. You know, you settle. Take what's before you, not what you think you should have. Daniel (41:40.534) Right, right, right. Yeah, I think one of his. Daniel (41:47.97) Right. Oh, that's so good. That's so good. Yeah. I think one of his last chapters is called like, take the next, do the next right thing or something like that, or the next right step or something like that. Yeah. Just. Yeah. Kevin (41:50.122) Oh, thanks, man. Thanks. Kevin (41:56.77) Yeah, and it's so true because everybody people are so overwhelmed and so you break down it You break down a project into smaller steps And you work on what you can do You know, you don't write a book you write one word at a time If you write one word one word at a time for a while, you will have a book It's not magic. It's just It seems magical because we only see the final production Daniel (42:08.046) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Daniel (42:16.29) Yeah. Kevin (42:21.91) You didn't see Stephen King, right? You know, actually typing out words, 3,000 words a day every day in six months. He's got a book. You don't see that. You just see a book on the shelf and you're like, wow, you're much better, very smart and really good at that. But, or like you say about building a house, you don't build a house. You build a, what is your thing? Daniel (42:22.093) right? Daniel (42:29.07) Yeah. Daniel (42:35.683) Right, right. Daniel (42:42.014) Oh, the frame like the studs and the framing and the yeah. Yeah. But you don't think about the framing at all in the. Yeah. So what does this have to do with games and with play? Kevin (42:43.23) Yeah, you build a frame and you... yeah. Kevin (42:48.958) No. You just think they press a button. Oh, so much, Daniel. I think first off, the idea... You know, it's funny, sometimes we don't play games because we feel like we don't have enough time. Daniel (43:04.099) Yes, yes. Kevin (43:05.274) And that may be true, there may be a season of your life where you really can't because let's say you have a young infant in the house or job change or you're moving or something, but in general maybe you do have the time, you just think you don't because you're trying to get all this stuff done and you keep waiting to have the perfect time for the perfect game group, but maybe you need to retool those expectations. Maybe the point of games is not to play them when you're done. but to play them because you only have 4,000 weeks. And if you wanna be playing games, what's stopping you? Daniel (43:39.17) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. To, to, that it's, there will always be something else that seems to make itself, that society will say is more important than play. For us it takes the form of games, but play can take other forms as well. And, and you need, and, um, if, if. Kevin (43:52.226) Yes. Kevin (43:56.428) Right. Daniel (44:02.01) thinking that you have to get through all the important stuff is the measure for whether you play games or not. You're never going to play games. You're never going to play, right? Because society will always say there's something more important. And so it makes that decision to say, this is an important part of human existence. You know what it means to be human. And I feel like such a hypocrite for saying that. I... Daniel (44:28.794) I, true confession time, I have just, I have recently dropped out of our game group at church because I just feel like I didn't have the time for it anymore. I feel like such an epic read. I know, I know. Our wonderful college, our wonderful college ministry director Reibs has taken over it and she does great. But I just felt like, you know, I've got like meetings every other night and I was like, I just can't. I just, I just needed an evening. Kevin (44:38.107) Nooo Kevin (44:46.862) Poor Daniel. Yeah. Kevin (44:55.806) Well, and you can't. Maybe you can't for now, but the goal should be, hopefully, that will change, I hope. Yeah, and also, it also reminds me, that's what Rodney, um, at Watch It Played, Rodney Dangerfield, is that his name? Rodney Dangerfield. It's just rapping Rodney. Daniel (44:58.81) But yeah, yeah. the... Go ahead. Daniel (45:11.542) Rodney Smith. Rodney Dangerfield can't get no respect, but Rodney Smith everyone respects. Kevin (45:18.73) Roddy Smith does but Rod D Smith of watch it played I think it was him I may be misattributing this but I think he would be fine with me attributing it to him just because that's how he seems to be but when he went to board game conventions he kept waiting to play the perfect game and he had his roommate and he's like oh well I kept trying to do this I couldn't he was telling his roommate and the roommate their housemate at the convention said oh well I just went I played this and he just played whatever it came across his Daniel (45:30.563) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (45:48.614) ambit and Rodney realized that he had done it wrong. Like he was approaching the convention almost as work, looking for the perfect gaming experience of the magic game and getting to play it. And he missed all these other games, which gets both to play should be about play, but also that it is about sometimes it's settling. Daniel (45:59.328) Yeah. Daniel (46:04.314) Mmm. Daniel (46:15.958) It is. Kevin (46:16.142) It's playing the game at hand versus the game, maybe the perfect game. You know, the perfect game will happen irrespective of your wishes. It'll just the perfect gaming moment will happen. Even with a bad game. In fact, I was watching a channel recently and the guy was like, this is a really bad game, but we have so much fun when we play it. I'm like, I love that. I love it. This is five point eight on Board Game Geek. And this game just rocks our world. And we have no reason, no reason to explain it. But Daniel (46:20.79) Right, right. In a way, searching... Right. Not making... Daniel (46:35.746) That's awesome. Daniel (46:40.498) Ha ha Daniel (46:45.25) And yeah, I mean, that's part of, again, I guess, you know, trying to let go of our demand that the future conformed to our wishes. You know, I want to play the perfect game. Well, sometimes you're not going to play the perfect game. And that's OK. Yeah. Kevin (46:56.99) Would you rather play a game or would you rather just complain about not playing the perfect game? So yeah, I think it also gets into the Protestant work ethic that he's kind of trying to resist that. And what better to resist the Protestant work ethic than play? That there is something that is absurdly non-productive, which is what play is. It's superfluous to anything that's useful in human life, except it's absolutely useful for human life. Daniel (47:14.062) Yeah. Daniel (47:21.89) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (47:26.998) where we get our deepest joys is moments of play not from work. And so the more we can find ways to play, the more we are resisting being producers and consumers. Daniel (47:31.856) Right. Daniel (47:39.362) Right, right. We find our value ultimately in the gift of life and not in our instrumentalization or functionality in some kind of larger machine. Kevin (47:40.854) You know, being useful. Yeah. Kevin (47:51.018) Yeah, yeah, play is absolutely useless from an economic point of view, unless you're buying lots of board games. But, you know, if we just put that aside, play is useless in terms of productivity, which is why we should be looking to it. Because it reminds us of who we are. So play can be very countercultural. Daniel (48:01.156) Right. Daniel (48:06.703) Yeah. Daniel (48:10.006) Yeah. And he, yeah, he talks about, you know, sometimes people will say, well, play and rest is necessary because it makes us better workers, which we've talked about on this podcast before. It's it misses the point. Yeah. And, and he, and he, um, and he, and I love that he brought that up. He said, no, he said the point of play and rest is not to, you can be a more efficient worker. He says it's, it's an end, it's an end into itself. Um. Kevin (48:19.766) Oh, it's a constant theme from this podcast. This is the point. Kevin (48:30.83) Mm-hmm. Daniel (48:37.782) And for me, I think one of the discussions I love around this that he talks about this phrase, the atelic activity, which was a new word to me. A-T-E-L-I-C. I assume it's pronounced atelic. Atelic, I'm not sure. But it comes... Kevin (48:50.616) Hmm. Kevin (48:55.262) I think I had a Tealik once, it was from a plane trip. That's bad rash. It's okay, got better. I mean this whole arm is bionic now. It has a USB port, but I lost the arm, but it does have a USB port, which is very handy. I have a lot of friends at the airport who say they can charge their phones in my arm. I'm a popular guy. No, I'm sorry, I derailed that. Daniel (48:58.474) Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, that was, good, good. But I guess, you know. Daniel (49:10.518) Hahahaha Daniel (49:18.382) very popular guy now. You're, yeah, just plug in a router too. You're walking Wi-Fi. Yeah. But I guess it comes from the, you know, there's this Greek word telos, meaning like, kind of like your ultimate, something's ultimate purpose, something's ultimate end, the end of it. And so like when, and so atelic means without purpose, without activity. And I'm kind of maybe connecting some dots that Kevin (49:24.714) Yeah. Daniel (49:47.59) He doesn't necessarily connect to me, I'm putting words in his mouth, but he talks about the importance of AT like activities because like games like play, because by definition, if they're not, if they're without an ultimate future goal or purpose, Then they're not in service to the future, right? They're all about the present, right? And that, and that the gift. Kevin (50:13.226) Right, right, right. Daniel (50:17.278) If it's true that the key to happiness and the key to experiencing grace and being present in life is to be present, like, to right now, to not lose ourselves in the past or in the future, then that one of the best ways of doing that is engaging in these AT-like activities, like playing and games, because you're not trying to achieve some future goal that may or may not ever get here. And games and play are like... Kevin (50:41.014) Right. Daniel (50:44.218) brilliantly suited for that. And that's what games are all about. They ground us in the present. Yeah. Kevin (50:46.498) Right? Yes. Although I will add, I'll complexify that just a bit there, Ombre. Weirdly, there is a future goal in a game you wanna win. So there is a weird, but the truth of it is it's just a game, which is the beautiful bit of it, that who cares that you won Brass Birmingham? My aunt has no idea what that game is. Like, it's not that important. Daniel (50:59.715) Yes, yes. Yes. Kevin (51:12.102) And in a certain level, hopefully we're aware of that. So you can enjoy completing something that is actually kind of strangely irrelevant. It's like you wanted horseshoes. Good job, Daniel. Like so you were trying to win and you won. But it also it doesn't really matter because it's just a game. And now you're going to go eat dinner. Daniel (51:12.252) Right. Daniel (51:19.232) Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (51:30.346) Right, right. The goal is so trivial, so unimportant, and so short and so immediate. It's not like something you're saving for 20 years from now, that it ultimately doesn't matter. Right? Like it just kind of, I mean, it matters in that, yeah, go ahead. Kevin (51:36.486) so short. Yes! Kevin (51:44.411) Right. So it scratches our itch for purpose and goal-oriented activity, but it actually also keeps it a little meaningless too because it's about little chits or a dice or something. Yeah, I think it's genius. Daniel (51:56.623) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I remember somebody reminds me of Jane McGonigal when we talked about her book, Reality is Broken, about how, yeah, like how games and play are so good at kind of giving us these little, these little shots in the arm of purpose and meaning, you know, just it gives us a sense of purpose, purpose-ness and purpose and meaningfulness. Yeah. Kevin (52:07.243) Reality is broken. Kevin (52:16.694) Yeah. Kevin (52:20.402) Mm-hmm. Yeah, we need some, yeah. Yeah, we're goal-oriented, but it needs to be goals that are hopefully restoring us and not just making us into cogs of a machine. Daniel (52:32.954) Yeah. And then that causes him to bring up Sir Rod Stewart. Are you a Rod Stewart fan, Kevin? Kevin (52:42.922) Can't say that I was, but I definitely remember him. Daniel (52:45.45) Yeah, yeah. My friend, Chelsea, friend of this podcast, she's a big Rod Stewart fan. I hope, I hope, I hope, oh dear, I hope I didn't give away something. Chelsea, if you don't want me to share that, I'm sorry. Anyway, she's a big Rod Stewart fan. But anyway, Rod Stewart. Oliver Berkman talks about how he was so surprised to read this article that said that Rod Stewart is a huge model train enthusiast. Kevin (52:50.674) Uh-huh. Interesting. Daniel (53:15.478) And that when he goes on the road, he has a hotel room for himself and a hotel room for his model trains. And it's just and just how he loves that he's unapologetic for this, for it. And he talks about this in terms of hobbies. And we could talk, we often talk about board game love as a hobby. And he says this great line where he says, he says, a good hobby should feel a little embarrassing. Kevin (53:23.199) So funny. Kevin (53:38.334) Mm-hmm. Daniel (53:45.598) And I love that. I love because the world will always say, this is unimportant, why are you wasting your time? And that's the point. Kevin (53:45.795) It's so good, it's so good. Yes. Kevin (53:55.55) I mean, if Rod Stewart spent all his time obsessing over music and the career of Rod Stewart, how unhappy would he be? So of course, someone whose job and vocation and work is music would have a totally different hobby to be a well-rounded person. That would just be weird if all you did was eat, sleep, drink, think, meditate on music. So yeah, you need something that makes it absolutely baffling to someone else. Daniel (54:09.818) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (54:18.659) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (54:24.622) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (54:25.598) And I generally find people with hobbies and collections and obsessions really interesting. Because then you get to hear, I mean, there is this weird cut glass that evidently is mostly men collecting these vases of cut glass. And a guy showed me his collection. I didn't know anything about it. But just watching him geek out over stuff that I had zero interest in was so much fun. I mean, it needs to end at some point. But yeah. Daniel (54:32.143) Yes. Daniel (54:40.534) Interesting. Daniel (54:49.55) Cut glass vases. Interesting, interesting. Yeah. Kevin (54:53.758) It's so weird people will collect. And I like seeing their obsessions. It makes the world interesting and spicy to appreciate that someone out and get them to talk about it and watch them geek out about something. And I can see people doing it to me. They're like, tell me about this board game thing. And I can tell they're kind of like rolling their eyes, but they're actually interested. And I'm like, I know what you're doing and I'm gonna tell you about it. Daniel (55:01.978) Yeah. Daniel (55:07.965) Yes. I'm sure you've had that experience before. Daniel (55:13.592) Right. Daniel (55:17.87) Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, we've probably all experienced that. You know, you talk to someone about maybe like their job or whatever, and they're like, yeah, this is, you know, this is what I do or whatever. And this is fine. But then you say, oh, and I hear you're into cut glass vases. And then they're like, oh, yeah, this is amazing. I got to tell you about that. You could see this light come on inside of them, right? Just that they don't get with talking about their job and their work and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. Kevin (55:28.215) Right. Kevin (55:36.27) This is... Yes! Uh-uh. That's so awesome. Yeah, good hobbies should feel a little embarrassing. And yeah, but games and game collection is a little embarrassing, and we should be able to laugh at ourselves and not take it too seriously. That's part of the fun of all hobbies, especially board games. It is just cardboard, really. Daniel (56:00.174) Right, right. Yeah. Isn't everything just cardboard in a metaphorical sense? Kevin (56:04.078) So I know I am. I had to have a mole removed at the dermatologist and it was just cardboard. Daniel (56:17.484) You know you've been playing a lot of board games, right? Kevin (56:20.975) You absorb the cardboard into your skin. Yeah, that's awesome. All right, so we've got an end quote. You wanna move to the end quote? Daniel (56:22.179) Yeah Daniel (56:29.578) Sure, sure. Well, yeah, I just I really love the end of the book. I thought it summarized it well. And he went out, he goes on to have an afterward and appendices and things. But this is kind of the end of the main body of the book. And I just I thought it summarized it well. He said, this is page 228. The only definitive measure of what it means to have used your weeks well is not how many people you've helped or how much you've got done, but that working within the limits of your moment in history. and or finite time and talents, you actually got around to doing, and made life more luminous for the rest of us by doing, whatever magnificent task or weird little thing it was that you came here for. Kevin (57:12.387) Mm. Kevin (57:16.394) Yeah, I love how open that is, how grounded that is to respecting and understanding people's weird little tasks or things. It's so appreciative of the variety of life. And then not everyone is called to do the same thing. Daniel (57:18.767) Yeah. Daniel (57:29.334) Yeah. Daniel (57:32.95) When I first read that, I kind of got caught a little bit on, you know, that measure is not how many people you've helped. Because I think in some ways, I might even say it is in a way. And I think that's certainly part of a lot of faith traditions. But then I think about. Parker Palmer, for example, is a Quaker Christian theologian. And he says, you know, he wanted to when he grew up, he wanted to be the next Martin Luther King Jr. and Mother Teresa and, you know, and just, you know, and he realized that the more he tried to do that, the more he was just almost kind of doing the violence, right, to the people around him and to himself, to his family, because he was trying to be somebody that he's not. And that ultimately, he ended up helping more people, blessing more people. Kevin (58:07.682) Weird. Daniel (58:16.066) just by being authentically himself, right? And the things that, and I see that, and I think Oliver Workman gets around to that in the end of the quote where he says, in your doing your magnificent little task or your weird little thing, you make life more luminous for the rest of us. So it is ultimately in a way, also a blessing. It's how we bless others too, yeah. Kevin (58:32.931) Right. Kevin (58:39.018) Yeah, no, absolutely. I agree that it's a little striking maybe because we are taught in various capacities to help others. I think what he's trying to get there is we don't want to do it that we're instrumentalizing people. I know one thing I... Famous quote from Dostoevsky is this certain character and maybe the Brothers Karamatsov, one of those, where this character says, I love humanity, but I hate people. Daniel (59:02.254) Yeah. Kevin (59:07.038) you remember that quote, that she's worried, she likes a crusade, she wants to help on a global scale, but she doesn't help the people that she meets. So if you think of the Good Samaritan story, for example, he wasn't out to help anyone, he just saw someone in need and helped. So we help our neighbors, we help where we can, but we're not out to be the best helpers of the world, perhaps, is what he's after. And even Jesus shows some of that, the gospel, some frustration or moving on. Daniel (59:08.272) Yeah. Daniel (59:16.291) Yeah. Daniel (59:28.738) Right. Daniel (59:32.16) I like that. Kevin (59:36.51) His ministry was not one of helping the most people because he spent time with disciples. He goes to Jerusalem, he turns his back on the crowd. So he actually, interestingly, he was not an optimized human being, was he? In terms of productivity. I mean, he curses a fig tree for just out of frustration. So he's a very real person. Yeah, I love the cursing of the fig tree the more I've thought about it. I'm like, it's... Daniel (59:40.447) Mm-hmm. Daniel (01:00:00.182) Yeah, that's, yeah, yeah. That's great, that's great. Kevin (01:00:06.002) And you love that the Christian tradition preserved that too. He just got mad at a tree. He cursed it. It's the closest Jesus came to throwing a shoe at the wall out of just frustration. A little, you know, listen, I was a little, you know, no one was hurt besides that. There's plenty of fig trees. It was fine. Yeah. Oh, Daniel next week. Daniel (01:00:09.282) Yeah, right, right. Yeah. You victory. Daniel (01:00:24.506) There are plenty of victories. Daniel (01:00:30.05) Yes, on our next show, we're welcoming a special guest, so excited to welcome Reverend Dr. Casey Sigmon. Reverend Dr. Casey Sigmon is a seminary professor at St. Paul School of Theology in Kansas City, Missouri, and she recently started a new center at the seminary called the Paws Play. center. It's for clergy renewal and it's all geared toward helping clergy persons have a sense of renewal in their lives through play, through the gift of play. And so she's all about what this podcast is all about, the intersection of religion and spirituality and play and games. And so we're looking forward to welcoming Dr. Siblin next time. It should be great to hear about her center and her work and her thoughts on theology and play and religion and games and spirituality and all. Kevin (01:01:32.866) Right. Yep, we are excited about that one. I remind folks to like us. So you can do that like me on the Instagram. On Instacat, all cats all the time. Instacat, Instagram, and the Facebook, and we got YouTube, and we got podcasts. And we got, we got other stuff. Yeah, we're good. Daniel (01:01:41.378) Like us. Like, yeah, yeah. If you could lead it into the cat. Daniel (01:01:56.886) Yep, yep. If you feel so, so led to leave a review for us on Apple podcasts or Spotify, that really helps a lot too. It helps people find us. We'd appreciate that if you feel, if you feel so led, it helps the algorithms point out our podcast to other people. So. Kevin (01:02:10.84) Yeah. If you see someone who looks like they're down and needs, you know, a kind word, you should pause, help listen to them and help them identify the feelings they're feeling. And then once they've done that, say, friend, let me tell you about a podcast. Brother, this might lift your spirits. And you can come up or get faith after you've helped them negotiate their feelings. That comes first. But second comes poor game faith. All right. Daniel (01:02:28.139) hahahaha Daniel (01:02:35.24) I love it. That's right. That sounds good. That sounds good. That's right. That's right. Bye. Thanks so much.