Daniel (00:05.994) Many people have found the enneagram to be a useful tool for understanding themselves better. What motivates them? What are they afraid of? What is their highest ideal? Many people have also found the enneagram to be a helpful spiritual tool, a way to understand who God made them to be and how God has wired the hearts of others. But what's the connection between the enneagram and board games. Depending on where you fall on the Enneagram, are there certain types of games that you will like more than others or that you will want to explore more than others? And does that preference reveal something about your approach to faith? Or is there no connection at all? It's the Enneagram, spirituality, and gaming. On this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Daniel (01:20.246) Hello and welcome everyone to Bored Game Faith. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:25.449) and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (01:27.506) And it is so good to have you joining us today. Thank you so much for listening on our podcast or watching on YouTube. We are grateful for your being a part of the show today. And Kevin, I am grateful to see you. How are you doing? Kevin (01:43.073) I'm good, Daniel, right back at you. Yeah, I'm really good. Daniel (01:46.178) Good, good. How is everything in your corner of the world? We're entering into winter in our hemisphere and anything exciting going on with you as the days get shorter and the temperatures get cooler? Kevin (02:03.861) Not too much we did get our Christmas tree up. This is our second year of having an artificial tree And it's a nice one like someone told us you need to get this one and it was it was like I Think it was half off after the holidays, but it was like $350. It's a very expensive tree, but it's really nice It's really nice. Yeah, like it plugs. It's separated so you can you just pop off the different segments Daniel (02:09.704) Oh, yeah. Daniel (02:20.962) Oh, that is cool. But I mean, but it's really good. Yeah. Daniel (02:31.591) Oh nice, okay. Kevin (02:32.189) And you kind of fluff it up and the lights are on there and we don't have to put water in there. Our cat is still going to the tree looking for water. It's been two years. And this kitty who is just dumb as rocks. I mean, she is so stupid, but she remembers that there used to be water there. So she's a little confused, but there's no needles falling. There's no water issue. The allergies are better because it was making Cameron and me sneeze for some reason. So, yeah, it's just one of those. Daniel (02:56.635) Oh, yeah, yeah. Kevin (03:00.289) Hey once cry once moments, so it's we're really enjoying it and it's got a little button on the lights For your foot so you can just walk by and step on it and turn it off. Just really satisfying. Is that nice? Yeah, I've gone team artificial which we had a real one for Rest the you know up till now for 20 23 years. We've always gotten a real one. How about you? What are you team artificial or team real? Daniel (03:03.874) Great, great. Daniel (03:10.242) That's... That is really nice, yeah. Daniel (03:24.318) Yeah, yeah. The allergy, you know, we are too artificial. Yeah, same experience. I mean, the allergies from having tree in the house were getting especially bad for Kristen. And just kind of finding a new way to do it. It is a whole lot easier for sure, you know, and not having to deal with the falling needles and then finding a way to kind of process to the tree when you're done with it. Kevin (03:36.955) Mm. Daniel (03:54.214) All of that. There are a lot of definitely easier options. Kevin (03:54.229) Right. Kevin (03:58.093) Those trees burn really well, so some people like to go out in the country and just have several years worth, and they, because they go up immediately with the old sap and the little, what do you call them? The, what is it that falls from the tree? Not leaves, but needles, thank you, the needles. Um, I blanked out there. And yeah, they just kind of almost explode type thing, and so it's definitely, evidently you have to be very careful, but it's a lot of fun to just set that on fire and watch them pop. Daniel (04:07.527) Oh yeah, that makes sense. Daniel (04:13.378) The needles? The needles, yeah, yeah. Understand? Yeah. Kevin (04:28.129) But I've not done that. We do have several in the woods behind our house that we've... The tree carcasses. Daniel (04:28.217) Do you remember? Daniel (04:32.726) Yeah, yeah, that's another thing here. In our, a couple homes back, we had a forest behind our house that we would carry the old trees out to, but we don't have that anymore. And so it's just harder to easily find a spot. Do you remember the Charlie Brown Christmas special, how there was this nod to, I guess, this trend in the 60s or 70s to have like pink or blue artificial Kevin (04:45.211) Mm-hmm. Daniel (05:01.782) Christmas trees like, like aluminum, pink or blue Christmas trees or something like that. Kevin (05:06.976) I don't remember from the special, but I do remember seeing those, yes. Daniel (05:11.818) I never saw one in person, but I always thought that seemed fascinating. When I would watch, if I'm maybe wrong, but I think it's in the Charlie Brown Christmas special and there was always part of me that was like secretly envious of those folks that could have pink and blue aluminum Christmas trees because they just sounded, they sounded like the kind of Christmas trees if you lived on an alien world, which, you know, who doesn't want to live at least for a little bit on an alien world? So. Kevin (05:27.394) Really? Kevin (05:32.888) Right. Kevin (05:36.737) Right? Or for Alien Overlords show up, you were like, I was Team Alien the whole time. I already had a metal tree for you. Would you like to be governor of North America due to your awesome tree? Daniel (05:43.286) I have your Christmas tree. Yeah, come, come celebrate with me. We have... Ha ha ha. Daniel (05:58.707) I hadn't even thought about the implications for getting in good with future alien overlords, but that's another plus for it. Yeah. Kevin (06:04.754) Any chance to suck off, I say. Yeah, yeah, my grandmother had the tree with the really large gaudy lights, multicolored, and then the tinsel that just got over everything. It was just kind of a strange, that was a strange fad as well that she'd never stopped doing. So yeah, they used to sell the tinsel. Well, no, I mean, she was passed on, but I'm just saying she just did that every year. Daniel (06:18.347) Yes. Daniel (06:23.422) Yeah. Oh, she still does. Daniel (06:32.042) Right, right, yeah. Well, and before Christmas, you have something else that's especially exciting coming up in your world. Kevin (06:33.077) the little tensile strips. Kevin (06:39.713) Oh, Daniel! On Thursday, I'm gonna get into a, what looks like a large aspirin pill or Tylenol pill, and we call those planes. And it's gonna go up in the air, and it's gonna take me to the city of Philadelphia, not anywhere in Rome or Greece or anything, right? Where was the city, or was that Egypt? Was it Turkey? Syria? Babylonia? Daniel (06:45.986) Yeah. Daniel (06:49.198) Clean. Daniel (07:01.698) Was it turkey? No. Daniel (07:10.486) Netherlands? Kevin (07:14.989) Pax Unplugged, which started out as a, just a gaming convention for video games, just Pax. And then the board games got so popular, they spun it off. 30,000 of my new best friends are gonna be there at Pax Unplugged in Philadelphia. So I am excited. Daniel (07:31.37) Oh, that's going to be so great. I'm excited for you. And I know we're talking beforehand. I hope we can talk about it some here on the podcast, just kind of reflections on conventioning and what a wonderful opportunity. That's great. Kevin (07:35.49) Yeah. Kevin (07:47.561) It's the one thing I've yet to do in my board game journey. I've watched videos, I've watched Watch It Played, I've bought more games than I need. I've obsessed over them, I've read manuals, I've had board game groups and things, but I've never been to a convention. So this is completing that, yeah. Daniel (08:04.504) Cool. Daniel (08:08.882) We'll be eager to hear about it. Kevin (08:10.549) Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna let you know what it's like. So tell me Daniel, the Enneagram. What is the Enneagram? Daniel (08:18.026) Yeah, today we're talking about the Enneagram. The Enneagram is something that, you know, I first encountered, oh, I don't know, it was probably maybe 20 years ago or so, and I suspect that's probably true for at least some of our listeners as well. It really gained in popularity in the last decade or two. It is a way of understanding different personality types. And according to this, Kevin (08:44.213) Mm-hmm. Daniel (08:47.486) this model of thinking about personality types, there are nine fundamental personality types. The word enneagram comes from, in part, from the word for nine, and also it's kind of graphically represented in a diagram as well around a circle. And so according to this way of looking at ourselves, there are nine fundamental different personality types. and all of us in one way or another kind of fall into those nine types. And understanding what type we are, many people have been helped have found helpful to come to understand like some of the things we don't necessarily even realize about ourselves, like our assumed worldview and what motivates us and the things we are afraid of. The Enneagram, as I understand it, it's kind of Kevin (09:36.973) Mm-hmm. Daniel (09:42.398) it's rather unclear what its origins are. It's up for debate. A lot of folks, I think have traced some of the roots of for Enneagram back centuries into various spiritual traditions, Christian tradition, Sufi Islam tradition. And so there seems to be this connection a little bit to, or maybe a lot to spiritual traditions, though it's certainly used as a more secular tool today as well, unrelated to a specific religious tradition. But one of those potential religious traditions was something that you mentioned the other episode, Kevin, that I never thought of before, that is there some maybe relationship to kind of this original idea of like the seven deadly sins or something like that? Is there some connection to any of that you're aware of? Kevin (10:38.581) Some people have tried to make that connection. They claim that the person that developed those seven deadly sins, or we think of, might have had some early version of the Enneagram, but I don't think that's a conclusive argument. But neither of us are experts, so we have only a casual acquaintance with this. But from what I have read, some people make that argument, and other people are like, yeah, that's a bit of a stretch. So, and it... Daniel (10:53.507) Okay. Thanks. Kevin (11:07.917) It seems to me, if they are true, various people could discover it, versions of it, right? So it points to its effectiveness if there have been other sketches of this in other locations. That would make sense. You know, sort of like math, like everybody figures out math at some point. You don't have to have learned it. Daniel (11:14.934) Right, good point, good point. Daniel (11:24.229) That's a great point. Daniel (11:28.81) Right. Truth is... Yeah, what's true is true, depending, kind of irregardless or regardless of how we approach it in what our particular context is or background is. By the way, sidebar, isn't it funky that both regardless and irregardless mean the same thing? Kevin (11:40.67) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kevin (11:49.257) It is. It is. And you can be ruthless, but you can't be Ruthful. Daniel (11:50.654) It seems like there should be opposites, but- Daniel (11:56.11) Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Kevin (12:00.429) Unless you are Ruth. Ruth are you full? Ruth full. Sort of like Hulk smash. Ruth full. No more food. Ruth full. Kevin (12:15.247) Did you know that Ruth lost some weight? And then that's how she became Ruthless. Daniel (12:21.13) I like it. That's very good. That's good. So despite kind of its ambiguous ancient origins, there are some more concrete ways of understanding its introduction into our contemporary vocabulary. What are some of the ways that came into? Kevin (12:44.441) Yeah, historically where they trace it is that one guy named George Gurdjieff, he was Armenian, and I don't know how to pronounce his name in Armenian, so I will just do an American, you know, push my luck and try. But he was Armenian, spiritualist, composer, and teacher. He lived 1865 to 1949, and he... is the first one that has the enneagram as we think of it, but he actually didn't apply it to personality types. He used it as more of a, I guess, spiritualist understanding of the world. So it was some later people. I know, it's so he had it, but it's like he didn't know what, how to use it exactly. So whether he came up with it or he got it from someone else, I don't think anyone knows, but there were two psychologists that began to make use of it in the 1970s. One from Bolivia and one from Chile. Daniel (13:18.282) Hmm, interesting. Kevin (13:36.985) Oscar Ichadzo and Claudio Naranjo in the 1970s. And so they were the ones that took it and made it more of a therapeutic practice. And then it got taught at some Catholic seminaries. Some Catholics got interested because Naranjo left Chile and moved to California. And you know, California is where you take new and interesting ideas, right? Daniel (13:59.914) Yeah. Kevin (14:01.425) And so it got taught through the Catholic tradition and Catholic seminaries, and then Richard Rohr is an important 20th century Christian writer and thinker and spiritualist Catholic priest and monk, right? He's a monk. He's Franciscan. He wrote a book. I think he had a lot to do with popularizing it because he is well-liked and respected, and he has talked a lot about it. So it has mysterious origins. Daniel (14:17.887) Yeah, he's a Franciscan monk, I believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (14:30.217) and it has a therapeutic, psychological therapy type practice element to it. So many therapists use it today just as a way to get started in therapy. To talk to someone is sort of, which one are you and what are you like? And the significant people in your life, what are they? And what does it tell you about your interactions? Like, what that might help understand some of the... closeness or arguments and fights which happen in any relationship, you know, because of these modalities. And so it has been popular in Christian circles as well, so it's been seen as connected to the spiritual life. Daniel (15:02.198) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (15:15.058) Right. I think a lot of people have found it to be a helpful tool for growing in understanding and love toward others and toward themselves, which of course is one of the primary themes of a lot of faith traditions. Yeah. You know, how do we? Yeah. So let's say that someone's listening to this podcast and they... Kevin (15:31.169) Right. It leads to a certain acceptance. Daniel (15:41.382) Maybe it's the first I'm hearing about an Enneagram or they've heard about it, but really haven't explored it very much. And they're thinking like, well, I wonder what kind of Enneagram personality type I am. I don't know why I imagine somebody thinking of that kind of voice, but yeah. So how could someone maybe who's new to the ideas of Enneagram, how could they find out where they might fall in that personality type? Kevin (16:04.789) Right. Well, what they should do is take a hundred dollar bill and write their address on it in Sharpie and send it to Daniel Hilty in Missouri. He doesn't have an address just because it's a desolate place. It's Daniel Hilty, Missouri. Yes. And he will he'll tell you what he doesn't have to talk to you. Just give you just give you. No, the Internet is really useful here. You can read up and there's lots of videos and podcasts and websites about it. Daniel (16:11.74) Mmm. Hehehehe Daniel (16:18.818) This state is my parish. No, no, no it's not. Hahahaha Kevin (16:34.277) I would send you to is a website called your enneagram coach.com and we will put that in the links to the podcast and here on YouTube. Your enneagram coach.com. It's a free service. They will want to follow up and try to get you to do a session with them, but you don't have to. And, you know, that's fair. They've got to pay the bills. So, so that that's kind of the economic exchange there that they will send you some emails and would like you to sign up. Daniel (16:54.734) Mm-hmm. Of course, of course. Kevin (17:03.341) to use them as a paid service, but you can just simply use the test. Daniel (17:07.85) Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Great. Kevin (17:09.929) Yeah. So what are the... briefly there's nine of them and I know it will kind of... why if you've never studied it it's going to kind of feel... might feel a little overwhelming but what are the nine types Daniel? This in brief. Daniel (17:17.291) Yeah. Daniel (17:26.27) Yeah, yeah, so there are shorthand ways of talking about each personality type, like names or labels. And so I want to share some of the most common shorthand names for this. Number, personality type one is often called the perfectionist, wants to get things done in the right way to be kind of ethically right, morally right, kind of above reproach. The helper is number two, just wants to... serve and care for other people and kind of sometimes kind of doesn't necessarily think about what they need maybe as much. Number three is the performer. You know just has to has to do really well, has to be seen as a success, an achiever, one who does good things. The romantic Just wants to see the connections, the understanding behind everything. Wants to lead an extraordinary life. And then number five, and then I'll maybe turn the remaining last four over to you, Kevin, to talk to you as well, but number five, can we see... sometimes called the investigator, sometimes called the observer, but someone who likes to observe life, to see life, to come to understand life, sometimes kind of in a way that stands off a little bit, but not in a negative way, can be very independent and private and just likes to, in a lot of ways, kind of keep to themselves. So that's kind of the first five. First of all, Kevin, I don't know if you want to add any of those, but then after that, what would be interesting in the remaining four? Kevin (18:56.727) Mm-hmm. Kevin (19:04.481) Yeah, no, that was excellent. The remaining four, number six there would be the loyalist. And this person tends to value being part of a group and to be secure and safe. And so they are very much someone who is going to have your back and sort of, yeah, be very loyal to a group and a helper. in many ways. Number seven is the enthusiast, and this is someone who is fun and happy and wants to have a great time, and they also want to avoid anything painful or difficult. So lots of high energy, but also sometimes avoiding a lot of... You know, reality is that because reality does include pain and so they spend a lot of time avoiding painful thoughts or experiences. Number eight is the challenger and this is kind of like a moral, I think of a prophet or crusader type, who is strong, confrontational, commanding and avoids weakness. So this is the person who's going to stand up for justice or righteousness. Amos out there. Daniel (20:13.802) Yeah, the activists, the prophets. Kevin (20:14.145) in the desert. Activists, yeah. Number nine is a peacemaker. They are pleasant and accommodating. They value harmony above all things and avoid conflict. So one way to approach these is each one has things they value and each one has things they avoid. And that's what, that's both the pros and the cons in a sense, because the avoidance is what can sometimes cause other sufferings. Daniel (20:41.182) Yeah. Kind of their strengths and pitfalls or strengths and traps for each reach. Yeah. That no one is better than the other. Yeah. Kevin (20:44.513) Yeah, right. And so knowing, yeah, that's right. And knowing how those interact explains sometimes your frustrations with other people or yourself and knowing, understanding yourself and knowing what you work on or what sometimes is something that is a feeling that you can't control, but you're gonna feel it. Feelings can't be controlled, but our responses to them can be. Daniel (21:06.614) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (21:12.053) as well as ideas. We can respond to ideas, but sometimes they have a life of their own. So yeah, those are the nine types. And in theory, you, good listener, you board game faithful member, are one of those. Now, interestingly, they start to then cross-fertilize. You can have wings, it's said. You can sort of connect to other aspects. Daniel (21:21.312) Now, grin. Kevin (21:38.269) Or there's triads, so there's ways... You may feel like you're more than one, and that's ways the enneagram tries to connect that, that you're mostly one of them, but you can also lean towards others, or you're attracted or repelled by certain others. That may be, Daniel, I don't know what you think, but it may be where it kind of starts to break down, that any system can't really fit people into it completely. Daniel (21:50.514) Right. Daniel (22:04.222) Right, right. And I think that leads to our first caveat that we're going to go into to give. And you observed this so well before we started recording, Kevin, that the fact that maybe it does kind of have these tweaks to keep in mind, these alterations to keep in mind, it kind of shows that no system is completely, utterly perfect for understanding this amazingly. complex, beautiful, frustrating thing called the human heart, you know, the human mind. And so we, so all which is to say, it can be a helpful tool but no like one number will ever entirely capture, you know, who you are as a, as a, no system can, no label can ever completely capture, you know, the uniqueness of any human being. And so, yeah, so that's kind of a. Kevin (22:35.474) Mm-hmm. Kevin (22:48.61) Right. Daniel (23:00.022) a caveat, it's a helpful tool, but like anything, it's not the end all or be all of everything. Kevin (23:07.745) Yeah, some people are real evangelists for this. So I think Richard Rohr says it's the most important things ever learned something like that, right? So it's been life-changing which is cool and that's great and if it helps people that much that's wonderful It doesn't mean it's gonna help everyone as much as you May feel so some people really think it explains, you know life the universe and everything and And I'm glad you and I kind of are a little more like this is a useful tool and there's a lot of truth in it but it Daniel (23:14.05) Wow, wow, that's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Daniel (23:25.13) Right. Daniel (23:30.122) Yeah. Kevin (23:37.413) it there are bumps and rough edges and it doesn't explain everything so if it did it would be in a holy writing right it would be in the bible or the quran or something maybe book of enneagram Daniel (23:43.242) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (23:47.318) It would be the book of Enneagram. How many chapters would be in the book of Enneagram? Kevin (23:54.273) It would have to be not. Well, I guess there could be a prologue in epilogue 11. And my next question is, if you're an officiant or a priest or a higher font for it, what does it pay? That's my next question. Church of Enneagram. $1 million salary. Oh. Daniel (23:55.414) That's what I, that's what I... 11. Daniel (24:06.73) from the Church of Enneagram? That would be, I think, a good question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now we should also say, speaking of Richard Rohr and others, I guess the second and final caveat, if you haven't figured it out already, which I'm sure you probably have dear listeners and watchers on YouTube, Kevin and I are not experts on this. So please know that going into this. There are so many people who know a lot more about the Enneagram than we do. Kevin (24:26.262) Right. Kevin (24:35.105) Yeah, you can get licensed or something with various groups in it. So, or certidif... Daniel (24:36.875) Yeah. So please take everything we say with kind of a certificate of, certificated. Yes. No, no. So take everything with a little grain of salt. If, if, if you've tuned in to find out like a deep understanding of the Enneagram, I know that I, I can't provide, I'm afraid. I feel like me talking on the Enneagram, would be like if somebody tuned in to find out about like, Kevin (24:44.393) Certificated, yeah. We're not. Kevin (24:52.237) It's a tiny green. Daniel (25:10.71) like how to fix your car or something, at least for me. Like, I know that there is such a thing as a car and that inside the car there is an engine, but I also know there are experts who understand that engine a lot better than I do. And that's probably the extent of my, maybe a little bit more, but with the edigram. Kevin (25:12.802) Right. Kevin (25:24.13) Right. Kevin (25:29.909) Yeah, I'll tell you how to fix your car. Call Jonathan at North Stanley Automotive. That's what I do, just drop it off. There's nothing like, so wherever you live, and Daniel, you've moved several times and moved recently. There's nothing like finding a good mechanic and a good plumber. There's just like, it's a reason not to move. You're just like, I don't know where to take my car anymore. Yeah. Daniel (25:36.024) That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (25:50.642) Oh, that's the truth. That's the truth, yeah. You know, we found, we had to find a new plumber here in our new home, in our new city that we're living in. And we were so surprised and pleased with this plumber. I don't think we're ever going to leave them. It's an office because there are multiple plumbers there. What do I am using the plural here? Because we had them come out to fix something. And two weeks later, Two weeks later, Kevin, on our front porch, there arrived a package of the most, of two dozen delicious chocolate chip cookies from the plumber as a way to say thank you. I know, isn't that amazing? Exactly, and I can say whatever the motivation, it worked. We will never use another plumber again, as long as we are here in the city because our plumber sends us chocolate chip cookies. Kevin (26:30.326) Why? Thank you for letting me help you. Weird. Kevin (26:48.769) Let's hope he washes his hands between jobs when he packages the cookies. That's really awesome. Wow. Daniel (26:51.541) Hahaha Daniel (26:56.286) I'm thinking what a great way, what a great follow-up for churches too. I'm sure, I'm sure I think like could we send like two dozen chocolate cookies to people when they visit the church? I don't know. Yeah. Anyway. Kevin (27:02.477) Right. Kevin (27:06.713) Classy, classy. Yeah, so which Enneagram type are you, Daniel? Daniel (27:14.218) Yes, so. Kevin (27:16.633) Should I guess? Hmm. You are committed and funny. So I could see you being a six, which is a loyalist. I could see that. And you like to help, so I could see you being a helper. Number two, but I'm not sure that's it. Which one are you? Daniel (27:18.39) Well, I... Daniel (27:27.725) I think. Daniel (27:34.846) Yeah, well... No, no, I, they have moments of those, but yeah, so I'm, I am a, I'm a number nine. I'm a, I'm a peacemaker. I'm a peacemaker, number nine. And, and you, Kevin, I can also see in you, you are also very helpful, but you're an investigator too. You like to kind of understand and, and research and, but, but you are neither of those, I believe as well. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (27:49.227) Mm. Kevin (28:00.694) Yeah. Kevin (28:04.225) Yeah, Wikipedia is my play field. Just find yourself strolling through different things. But no, I'm really a perfectionist. I'm a number one. I hate to be the fall guy that let the team down. I hate to make stupid mistakes. I wanna do it right. I wanna find out how to do it right. So I love YouTube. This is how you fix coffee. This is how you fix this problem. Yeah, I wanna do it right. I wanna do it right the first time. Daniel (28:29.386) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (28:34.489) So it's a, like any of these, a blessing and a curse. It's great to do it right. It's sad when you're obsessing and mad at yourself because you're, you know, not meeting the expectations you have. Daniel (28:39.138) now. Daniel (28:47.742) So we say that's kind of the pitfall of number one, that it... Kevin (28:51.903) Yeah. The inner critic, man, we all have it, but number one, it's, it's that, that dude is that dude is jacked up. He's like Schwarzenegger, you know, you'll call it off dawn by Taff. Daniel (28:54.239) Yeah. Daniel (28:59.83) Yeah, yeah. He's gonna beat you up. It reminds me, I think also speaking of Richard Rohr earlier, I remember Richard Rohr maybe speaking of the Enneagram, but just in general was talked about, every strength has a shadow side and every shadow side has a strength. And yeah, yeah. Kevin (29:14.401) Right. Right, and so yours would be avoiding conflict as a, because conflict's inevitable. Yeah. Daniel (29:19.69) Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's paralyzing. In some ways it's paralyzing. Yeah, you know, I mean, so my, as a peacemaker, I think what's helped me understand myself is that in some ways it's really spot on. I mean, as a human being, first and foremost, but also as a pastor, what makes my heart sing is I love seeing folks come together across dividing walls that aren't supposed, that society says aren't supposed to come together, you know, I just, I live for those moments, you know, and I, and I think like, I feel like the church is most being the church when it helps those kind of connections happen across, across dividing walls. Kevin (29:55.481) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Kevin (30:06.253) Churches are great at that because people are so different and they would not have met each other except for a church Or any house of worship. It's true of any house of worship, you know, you get different people Daniel (30:11.122) Exactly. Yeah. Kevin (30:16.109) And one of the things people point to for the coarsening of American and other societies is people don't interact, and part of it is they're not in religious institutions, or any institution, civic. So they don't know people that are different than them, and then they have every reason to hate them because they don't know any of them. Daniel (30:28.03) Right, right, right. Daniel (30:36.69) Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that religious institutions can be, not always of course, but can be quite good. Again, definitely some exceptions to it as well, but can be quite good at bringing people together across. Yeah. And I think for me, the pitfall of that is, yeah, that it's, yeah, I do, you know, it's easy to avoid conflict. Kevin (30:48.557) Sure, no there's dark sides to it. Daniel (30:59.35) when I think I've learned that conflict, of course, you know, conflict is unavoidable, it's part of life, but I, kind of like you said, your inner critic is kind of like jacked up when you're a perfectionist. I feel like while maybe not many people, not many people like conflict, it like, I think what I've discovered is maybe it comes at even more of a cost inwardly for me than for others. I, you know, I know I have to do it sometimes, Kevin (31:24.437) Right. Daniel (31:32.665) but it just comes at a pretty high emotional spiritual cost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (31:39.745) Yes, some people do like conflict. I mean, they want an argument, they thrive. And it's not that they want to cause pain or anything. They just, it makes them feel alive. They're like, oh, you know, let's say they kind of want to get into the weeds and go at it. So yeah, they're definitely people that get energy from it. And it sounds like for you, it drains you. So you can do it, but it's very draining. Whereas other people, it's kind of vivifying. Daniel (31:49.57) Right. Daniel (32:05.162) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's well said. That's well said. So. Kevin (32:10.409) Right, so what we wanted to do today is connect these up to games and game mechanisms. What do your enneagrams say about your games or what do your games say about your enneagram type thing? And there's a couple of interesting wrinkles here I want to throw in later, but to begin with I'm going to guess that Daniel as a peacemaker, number nine, He is gonna enjoy a Euro game. And I'm guessing that because it avoids conflict. You can do your own little thing, you work on your old tableau and have a sense of accomplishment and there's not conflict. Do you, is that, what do you think? Daniel (32:43.786) I do. Daniel (32:55.242) I, it is true and any, and, um, Euro games are my personally, my favorite type of game. I absolutely do. You're right. And you avoid conflict. Yeah, I, they're like puzzles that, and I don't feel guilty about, about any of them about like hurting someone else, right? Or taking away from something else, somebody else in doing it. But, but Kevin (33:04.912) Mm. Why do you like them? Kevin (33:19.107) Right. Daniel (33:21.806) And I don't know if we want to get into this now or later, it's fine too, but I, as I was saying, preparing for this episode, I think I realized that there's another mechanism, another type of game that I think actually better represents at least for me, kind of that peacemaker impulse than at least speaks to my peacemaker heart. And yet, oddly, it's not my favorite kind of game, but games that are good at bringing people together across divides. Kevin (33:42.314) Give me some hints. Give me some hints. It's... Kevin (33:48.562) Oh. Okay, so maybe role-playing game? No. Daniel (33:53.854) Well, I don't mean to make you read my mind. Not quite what I had in mind. Kevin (33:58.217) No, I'm just trying to put some sizzle in the episode. So give me some hints, make it a game. See if I can guess it. Daniel (34:04.978) Yeah, they are games that are often maligned. And if someone were to ask me, I would not say they are my favorite games, but I do enjoy them. And I think I'm coming to see that they especially appeal to the peacemaker heart, to the number nine. Kevin (34:21.51) Oh, you stumped me. And can you hit towards a game? Daniel (34:25.404) Um, um... Kevin (34:28.301) Give me a clue that rhymes with it or is similar to the name or the something. Give me a clue. I'm really curious now. Daniel (34:35.598) Vladáč Václav, is that his name? The Czech designer, his most popular game. Kevin (34:38.681) Okay. Yeah. Oh gosh. Mage Knight? No, that's not his code names. Is it code names? It is a social type game. Guessing. Hardy. Daniel (34:46.314) You know? Yeah. What type of game is that? Daniel (34:56.522) Yeah, Laurel and yeah, what rhymes with party games? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I, you know, I, I think party games are often much maligned in the hobby board game world and, and I, and I honestly, I think I can say honestly, they are not my favorite, but I enjoy them. Kevin (35:04.845) party game. Kevin (35:08.782) Huh. Kevin (35:12.313) Yeah, yeah, I see now. Kevin (35:19.193) Do you think that? Really? Because they always have a pick. They always have a pick of a party game. I didn't think they were maligned. I mean, I can see they're not, you know, serious gamers probably want something different, but... I see, I see. Yeah. Daniel (35:26.154) Well, I mean, I think in the hobby board game world, yeah, like maybe, you know, like, no one ever. I don't hear that a lot from like hardcore hobby board games, but and they're not my favorite. I do enjoy Euros more, but I think I realize I'm preparing for this that. That that party games bring people together more than that's their strength, right? And and the last two church. Kevin (35:44.333) Huh, yeah, I can see that. Right. Daniel (35:55.266) Board game groups that I have been a part of, that has by far been the most popular kind of games because they bring people together. You know, you don't have to be a hobby board gamer, you don't have to be this or that. And so I think that that's been a revelation for me in preparing for this episode that I think party games are really good for those nines, for bringing people together. Kevin (36:01.562) I can see that. Uh huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (36:18.497) But your favorite game is TELESTRATIONS and that's a party game. Daniel (36:22.134) Well, you're right, you're right. It's weird. Yeah, yeah, you know, it is a part, you're right. But I love Euros, I do, so it's not to say. Kevin (36:25.654) Hmph. Kevin (36:31.949) Well, it's a different result. I mean, euros are puzzling and challenging, and party games are not really, I mean, they can be, but it's mostly about having fun. It's not really about winning. So yeah, I can see that. I can totally see it. And you're right that the games I've been doing some with the youth at church, we did charades, which they had never done it before. And did I tell you this? I can't, I don't think so. I don't know if I was repeating myself. Daniel (36:33.398) They don't satisfy me in the same way. Yeah. Daniel (36:42.338) Yeah. Daniel (36:53.89) Wow. No, no. Kevin (37:00.257) But yeah, I had to tell them how to play. And it being a church setting, I wanted to use church words. And I looked online and they were too hard. So I tried to just pick out nouns from the Gospel of Mark, which would be kind of difficult because one was village or blind man. Like I was trying to find things in the Bible. So, you know, you had to kind of baptize it, make it churchy, right? So part of it, it didn't really matter. I just wanted them to Daniel (37:26.241) Right, right. Kevin (37:30.125) to do something and they had no idea. They'd never done it before and they didn't wanna do it. They're like, well, I don't wanna act it out. I'm like, that's the point. Like, this is freedom to fail. Like, get up there and make a fool of yourself. No one cares. Like, we're just gonna laugh with you. And then they didn't wanna quit playing. They had so much fun trying to act it out. One was the thief, because Jesus tells stories about a thief in the night or something. Daniel (37:43.519) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (37:56.586) Right, right, yeah, yeah. Kevin (37:57.469) And so they grabbed the hat off of one of the adults in the room and ran out of the room. And he was like, what did I do? And we're like, huh. And they were like, thief. So that was really cute. And then we've also done illustrations, which they, being awkward teenagers, said, well, I can't draw. And I'm like, that's the point. Like you're doing something. That's what makes it funny. Like you just do your best. And if it's bad, everyone just laughs with you. Daniel (38:16.258) That's what makes it good, yeah, yeah. Daniel (38:23.211) Right. Kevin (38:23.869) And they had a ball with that. So yeah, party games. I hadn't really thought about it, but that is the strategy. Because it should be about the fun, not about winning. Daniel (38:34.09) Right. So as a perfectionist then go ahead, go ahead. Why should I say for you for number one? Yeah. Kevin (38:35.617) Cause as you, as, yeah. Yeah, no, I'm just like, tell us trations. So there are, there are win, there are win conditions technically, but then I don't think anyone really uses them. They're not that great. It's more fun just to talk, talk. Yeah. Uh, it's a perfectionist. Yeah. No, it, it's good for me because it, it turns off. I mean, you really can't be that per, I guess you could be good at drawing, but, um, but it's good for me to play a party game because it shuts off the inner critic because that's not the point. Daniel (38:48.606) never used them. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (38:54.435) So are you? Daniel (39:07.586) So what games speak to you as a number one perfectionist then? Would that be those bureaus as well? I mean, you have to kind of get the system just right. Kevin (39:13.037) Well, that's the interesting bit. Yeah, I think the euros do. I think the euros do, which is a bit of a struggle as I've kind of hinted at with you before we were recording that I love the euros, but they also torture me because I didn't get the highest points. So sometimes in the game world, I'd rather play something with more luck because it means I'm less critical of myself. Right? Because if I'm gonna play the euro, I want to eventually Have the you know be able to beat it at the expert level, but I'm just not that good at games daniel. I'm just Whatever reason, uh, you know, I'm just I i'm not i'm not the one that's going to win on the expert level and that kind of drives me a little nutty So a game that gives me permission to fail Daniel (39:43.676) Uh, yeah, yeah. Kevin (40:10.889) such as a more luck-based game is great. Or one designer I've really been enjoying is Adam Kwiapinski, and I don't know if I'm saying that right because I think he's Polish or somewhere in the Eastern European hemisphere. But he did Nemesis and he did Frostpunk. And his games are often very Euro-y and strategy, except at the very end, Daniel (40:33.65) Okay. Kevin (40:39.609) If there is a win condition, either win or lose. So a nemesis, can you get off the ship and obtain your objective? So he's really kind of a hybrid. You've got to handle resources and strategize and plan. Maybe it's not exactly Euro, maybe that's not fair. Daniel (40:47.551) Okay. Daniel (40:56.846) Like there's not a metric at the end. Like we have to achieve the highest score. You just. Kevin (40:59.753) Yeah, so maybe it really isn't, but there is often a resource management thing that makes me think of a euro. But Frostpunk, you've got to build a society and survive till the end, and it is... People just belly-ache constantly about how hard it is. I bet I've played it 15 times. I've yet to win. But there will come a day when I win. So that, I kind of like that because it's either win or lose. It's not... Daniel (41:23.008) I believe in you. Right. Kevin (41:27.165) you know, well you got 100 points so you won but if you want to be on hard level it's 120. Like that's the kind of thing that would drive me a little nuts because I'd want to get 120 but I'm too lazy and not good enough. Daniel (41:41.502) It's interesting how you've come to see kind of your personality type on the Enneagram as something that both determines, yeah, what games you like, but also what games just are a burden for you. You're almost kind of like, almost like and don't like the same game for, for free. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (41:57.655) Yeah. Kevin (42:01.077) I do, you're right, I really do. Because euros are, I mean, you really have to think hard and plan and a certain point for me at least, it's not a game anymore. It's more of like doing your taxes, right? Because you have to just be so on game. Now some people may love the puzzle and play experts. So Shem Phillips, I mean, the expert setting on much of his games are because of him. Evidently, he's just a beast when he plays. Like he can crush a game. Daniel (42:13.919) Right, right. Daniel (42:19.776) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (42:27.159) Wow. Hmm. Kevin (42:31.253) And I don't know that I can be that person, or I don't know that I care enough to be that person in terms of working, practicing and working at the game. So. Daniel (42:39.67) Right. Daniel (42:45.154) But then what I hear you say is you kind of beat yourself up for it. Like, oh, I'm not that person. I beat myself. Yeah. Huh. Kevin (42:48.449) Yeah, yeah, that's the problem. That's the problem. Yeah. I mean the bonus to the perfectionist is I'm going to check the air pressure in my tires. I'm going to do all the right things and maintain what I have and I follow the rules and I'm going to have the nice coffee grinder and all that kind of stuff. The bad thing is that yeah, it kind of torments me at times. Daniel (43:12.374) Yeah. Kevin (43:13.389) So how you negotiate that's a bit of the trick. But yeah, but I do enjoy the puzzle games. I do enjoy a game where you have perfect knowledge. I think that's really cool. Like a feast for Odin. There's really not much hidden. Yeah. Azul is a great game. It's a lot of strategies, a little bit of luck of what you draw out of the bag, but you get to plan things out and see if you, you know, when you win that because of your plan, that feels great. Daniel (43:15.914) Yeah. Daniel (43:27.242) I could see why perfectionists were like that, yeah. Daniel (43:41.546) Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I. Kevin (43:44.877) But yeah, I do like the zaniness. And Adam Kwepinski, I mean, he's cruel. You can play a game for two hours and play pretty well and still lose. But I kind of love it. It's like make or break anyway. Daniel (43:55.032) Hmm. Daniel (44:02.538) Yeah, yeah. You just enjoy the process of trying to move things toward a state that's closer to perfection, whether you get there or not. Kevin (44:11.925) Yeah, and they. Yeah, and maybe because it's a very definable goal like this is win or lose. So if I can win, then I'm done. First is, well, you could you get 130 points type thing? Daniel (44:17.642) Yeah. Right. Daniel (44:25.987) Mm-hmm. Right. Kevin (44:27.705) So yeah. But I do enjoy some luck and some zaniness, I think, because it makes me a little less self-critical. Yeah. But there's some other types. Do you wanna mention some of the other Enneagrams, how you think they would line up with a game or a mechanic? Daniel (44:38.027) I could see that. Daniel (44:43.538) Yeah, yeah, so number two is the helper, of course. And the helper, as we mentioned, is this one who really finds meaning in serving others and kind of helping to be a catalyst for things happening, good things happening in other people's lives. Kind of the trap, the pitfall can be sometimes at the expense of one's own. Kevin (45:08.225) Right. Daniel (45:12.59) in one's own needs. And for me, it seems to me like a good board game mechanism that goes along with the helper is the good old... Daniel (45:30.382) cooperative game with asymmetric powers. And so that's kind of a nerdy hobby board game term. But what that basically means is like in this cooperative game, everyone has a different character and each character has certain abilities that other people can't do. And to me at least, not being a helper, I'm just kind of projecting, but I've seen a lot of cooperative games. Kevin (45:32.244) Mm-hmm. Daniel (45:59.294) when it's not dominated by one person, which is what we call the alpha gamer in the hobby board game world. But it's not dominated by one person and people truly are cooperating and working together. There is a lot of helping and serving in there, right? It's like, hey, you've just lost a heart, but this person over here, they have some health that they can give back to you. So... Kevin (46:15.949) Mm-hmm. Daniel (46:22.954) So I'm going to try to go over here and meet you in this hallway so that I can help restore your heart, you know? And then while they're doing that, you know, this person's going to go over here and try to keep off the monster, you know, from coming down here. And so if, when it's done well, cooperative games where there are different roles, different abilities, really is kind of exercise in helping each other, right? And serving each other. It makes me think about games like Atlantis Rising. Kevin (46:28.022) Right. Daniel (46:52.006) a good cooperative game that has unique roles in it. I just got a new game in the mail, Subterra 2, which is also cooperative game where you have unique roles serving each other. And then of course the classic pandemic, right? In pandemic cooperative game, everyone has a different role and at its best, ideally, you're using your abilities to help other people throughout. I don't know, does that make sense to you or is that too, maybe too obvious for the helper? Kevin (47:08.153) Mm-hmm. Kevin (47:15.331) Right. No, no, I think it is, yeah. The helper wants to... The helper identifies with other people's needs, so they would love to help you win, potentially. And then you're excited that you won, and they're excited that you're excited. So they kind of, they tend to mirror other people's desires. So yeah, co-op games. Do you like co-op games, I'm guessing? Daniel (47:35.908) Right. Kevin (47:46.825) Or do they lead to too much conflict potentially? Yeah, just in the sense like you could have disagreement about what people are gonna do. Daniel (47:46.877) Um... Daniel (47:51.846) I do like... Go ahead. Daniel (47:57.59) Yeah, you know, I like co-op games, but I also struggle with them a little bit. And it's for that reason, you know, that kind of surprisingly, sometimes they do lead to conflict, right? Because the person will say, well, I really think we should do this. And someone else will say, no, I really think we should do this. And so it either, it sometimes can end up just one person kind of playing that overarching kind of boss role and the ever, and others kind of maybe just kind of stepping back and not being as engaged. But it's not always that way. At its best, I think it can be an exercise and cooperation and helpful. Honestly, my primary experience with cooperative games is I play most of the cooperative games as solo games, you know, and just control multiple characters. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (48:28.661) Mm-hmm. Kevin (48:40.054) Right. Kevin (48:45.205) Yeah, I just realized that a few months ago, which seems kind of obvious that any game that's co-op, you can always solo it. You just play two people. Like, it seems obvious. I was still like, well, it doesn't say there's solo mode, so I guess you can't. Let's be very literal with the rules. Daniel (48:53.878) Yeah. No, no, no. Daniel (49:00.546) Yeah, no, I can understand that. Yeah, yeah, no, I can see why if it's not spelled out. Ha ha ha. Kevin (49:06.945) Like it's gloom haven of a solo mode, sir. You can be two people. What? Does it say that in the rules? There's the perfectionist. Well, it doesn't say it, so you can't do it. You're not supposed to do that. It is, it is. Is it in the rules? Yeah. Yeah, so our friend of the podcast, Jordan. Hi, Jordan. He might be a number one as well, because he enjoys rule books and doing it. Daniel (49:13.666) Hehehe Daniel (49:19.626) Right, exactly. That's a good perfectionist mantra. Is it in the rules? Yeah, yeah. So that's number. Hey Jordan. Yeah. True. Kevin (49:36.537) properly and yeah. Daniel (49:41.962) So that's number two. What about number three, Kevin? Do you have any thoughts on? Kevin (49:47.033) Number three is the performer and this is the person that wants to want success and has got a win and They also I think sort of like doing something dazzling as well something epic So they might like co-op games and fortunately because they would be the alpha gamer telling everyone else to do and that would be One of my children he that's very much him Have to tell him like it's mom's turn You can advise, but you know, and he would get mad that she wasn't doing what he, and he actually sadly was often right, but still. He hates to lose and wants to win. And so that would be someone the performer might wanna do push your luck. Because what they wanna do is go out with an epic, you know, you have a one in 500 chance of winning and they roll the one, that's what they want, yeah. Daniel (50:34.071) That's great. Daniel (50:39.342) I think that's such a great insight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (50:42.485) Now the reality is they're going to lose. It's just statistically you're probably going to lose. And so taking that is a bad role, but that's what they want. They want the heroic ending. Dungeon Crawler, something like Gloomhaven, where you get to go around and be this creature and defeating and then having that sense of winning the scenario and going forward. Daniel (50:45.003) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (50:50.936) Yeah. Kevin (51:04.425) So they might be attracted to that. Or if they're really wanting to win, they might want to think about risk mitigation, which is where you're in a game, you're trying to figure out how to prevent the bad dice rolls or what you do in case something falls apart. So they might enjoy that. So Quacks of Quedlingburg, which I've not played, but I'm familiar with. It's like pulling things out of a bag and press your luck and you're willing. They would love that. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (51:27.758) It's a great pressure-luck game, yeah. Daniel (51:33.542) I think it's just a brilliant connection between the performer and pressure-luck games. I've never thought about that, but that makes, that's so good. Because you're right, because in that moment, in that moment when you're pulling that thing out of the bag or whatever to see if you're going to succeed or fail epically, like you are... Kevin (51:42.4) Oh. Daniel (51:52.726) the star, right? Like you're in the spotlight for that moment. You are performing, the whole table's watching you. You're performing for the whole table about what's gonna happen next. And it's, I could see that's a really great connection. Yeah, it's a great, great mechanism for performers. Kevin (51:54.442) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (52:03.193) I always think of Stranger Things the recent season, season three or whichever, when the girl rolls the 20 on the D20 when they're playing Dungeons & Dragons, and he's like, this is why we play, because she had a one in 20 shot of rolling it. That's what they want. But life is not like that. Life is a lot of, you know, you forgot to mail the package, right? And so they can be very frustrated by that. Daniel (52:08.914) Yep, yep. Yep. Daniel (52:13.815) Yes. Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe Daniel (52:30.422) Yeah, yeah, no. Kevin (52:34.31) If you could always roll the 20, it would not be fun. So you're kind of thwarted. What's another type that you see, Daniel? Daniel (52:38.698) Yeah, that's right. That's right. Daniel (52:46.078) Well, yeah, I was, I was wanting to talk to you. I know our listeners may be wondering, we're approaching the hour mark and, which is our episode length, and we're about halfway through. And we'll divide this up into two episodes, listeners and viewers. So don't, we're not going to try to go through all night. But yeah, do you want, you want to try to do one more? Kevin, you want to try? All right, so number four, number four is the, is the romantic, right? The one who, Kevin (53:00.566) Right. Kevin (53:05.934) Let's do one more each. Kevin (53:10.884) Number four. Daniel (53:15.438) who loves narratives and the stories of life and weaving the stories of life and leading an extraordinary life. And to me, it seems like a mechanism that might be especially, a game mechanism that might be especially well suited for the romantic is, is kind of the narrative games, right? The games that tell a story. Kevin (53:41.729) Yes. Daniel (53:44.154) Right, yeah. And we already mentioned already, like role-playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, right? Just what you just said, for the awesome Stranger Things moment. But I mean, that's all about telling a story, role-playing games, right? And when you tell a story, that's an added layer of creating meaning and creating. Kevin (54:11.507) Mm-hmm. Daniel (54:12.518) sense of connection between things. Even if it's not, even if it doesn't be inherently there, you can make those connections by the story that you tell in that moment and you can make whatever it is extraordinary by the stories that you tell in that moment. And so yeah, role-playing games are really good. And then I think of other, you know, there are narrative games that aren't role-playing games and I have not played as many of these, but I always get the impression like... Kevin (54:26.745) Mm-hmm. Daniel (54:38.346) Like Sleeping Gods, isn't that a narrative driven game as well, Kevin? And yeah, I don't know if that would be maybe one that also kind of appeals to that sense of making meaning through the stories that we tell and this kind of this romantic sense of, yeah, being the, the heroes of these stories that we shape our lives with. I don't know, does any of that make sense to you? Yeah. Kevin (54:40.937) Mm-hmm. Very much. Yeah. Kevin (55:05.781) Yeah, being absolutely, no, I think you're spot on with that. The romantic wants to feel certain magic and wants to be extraordinary and different. And so they're going to love a role playing game. They're going to love a game with the story. They love a game where you get to be something very different. I have a lot of leaning towards this, you know, it's like, would you rather play a character where you're a kind of pudgy, middle aged white dude who right goes around always self-critical or would you rather be a corpse who is who has a magic purple orb and i'm like oh it's purple and you know you ate your parents i'm like yeah that sounds really interesting like i did i totally want to do because it's because it's fantasy like it's not real so why wouldn't you be the most interesting thing you can something very different because that's a safe space to be something different Daniel (55:47.405) Hahaha Daniel (55:52.31) Hehehehehehe Daniel (55:58.452) Right. Kevin (56:04.505) Because when the story ends, of course you're not going to do any of that stuff, but in the story, ooh. Daniel (56:09.674) Yeah, yeah. In that story, you can be, you can lead an extraordinary life. Well, that is not ordinary to what you're used to. Kevin (56:16.001) Yeah, yeah. So those are probably, they're gonna love cosplay, they're gonna like that kind of stuff. In fact, maybe that is why those people will go to extraordinary lengths to go to board game convention and take all this gear they've made and dress up as something and walk around, because they're the romantic. Like, I am the only Princess Leia here, type thing. Daniel (56:32.374) Right, right. Yeah, yeah. That'd be interesting. Right. It would be interesting to, well, just all sorts of different events or conventions or whatever to see if there's connections between enneagram types or the participants in that convention or whatever. Yeah. I like it. Well, we have gone through just over half of the enneagram numbers. We've done nine through four, because it's a circle. Kevin (56:46.552) Mm-hmm. Kevin (56:55.673) cool cool. Daniel (57:07.966) Right? So even though that may not seem numerical, it is a circle. So that will leave the next time we talk through this, five through eight. So, so dear listeners, if you are five through eight, an observer or investigator or, or questioner or loyalist or enthusiast or challenger, we'll, we'll get to you. We haven't forgotten about you. You matter. We see you. Kevin (57:08.985) It's a circle. Kevin (57:18.04) Right. Kevin (57:33.273) Mm-hmm. That's right, that's right. Ha, ha, ha. Daniel (57:38.954) So we will get to that too. But I've enjoyed this, Kevin, this is great. Thank you so much. Kevin (57:44.685) I, you know, pat on her back. I don't know who else has ever done this. So I'm sure I'll Google search tomorrow and I'll realize it's been done a million times. But right now in this current fantasy life of me, like we are innovators. Yeah, Enneagram game. Daniel (57:59.722) I like it, I like it, I like it. And even if someone else has done it, I doubt that any of them brought in mention of a corpse with a purple orb. Yeah, so that's right, who ate spirits? Kevin (58:12.737) Yes, who ate his parents? Delicious. Daniel (58:21.591) So next episode, do we want to get into next episode or we want to kind of leave that? Kevin (58:27.585) Yeah, next episode. I think we can. We're going to talk about good games that are good to play with family and friends around the holidays. So whatever your holiday of choice or cultural background is, most people gather together at some point. Especially when the days are, when the nights are long and the days are cold. Which in New Zealand would be in June and July. Daniel (58:35.895) Yep, yep. Daniel (58:50.39) Yep. Daniel (58:55.518) Right, right, right. You know, sidebar related to that, we had our son and daughter back home for the holidays here and both of them had said something to the effect of, you know, the older we get, the more we see the wisdom of putting this major joyous holiday celebration in the middle of... the darkest, coldest part of the year. Because they both said, if there was not something like Christmas to look forward to, this part of the year would almost kind of be unbearable. And I had thought about that, but there is some wisdom in that. But it also makes me think about, yeah, our friends in New Zealand, in Australia, and in, well, Chile and all over the Southern Hemisphere, right? I mean, where that's not the case, you know, is there a... And I'm embarrassed to say I don't know enough about... Kevin (59:19.293) Right. Right, right. Kevin (59:33.43) Right? Daniel (59:50.047) national celebrations and holidays, but is there something similar to look forward to in the depths of the colds of winter in the Southern Hemisphere? Yeah. Kevin (59:57.577) I would almost bet there is because it's just a factor of the human condition that if there isn't someone's going to create one Something to look forward to. Yeah, absolutely Yeah Daniel (01:00:02.082) Yeah. Yeah. Maybe some of our listeners, I know we have wonderful listeners in New Zealand and Australia. Give us an email. We'd love to hear about that. Is there some sort of celebration, holiday, special moment in the depths of winter in the Southern Hemisphere that folks kind of look forward to? Kevin (01:00:20.481) Yeah, let us know. Kevin (01:00:27.661) Did you know, Daniel, in the in the fourth century there was a bishop who argued that Christmas should be in July? Daniel (01:00:36.184) No, I didn't know that. Kevin (01:00:37.845) Yeah, he was known as Bishop Grumpius Frumpius. And he said, he's like, you know, summer sucks, it's hot. And the sand gets in my crocs and my tevas and my Birkenstocks. And I just need something else to look forward to. And so I think we could just light a Christmas tree and put it in the beach. And then I'm gonna have something to do. And... Daniel (01:00:41.674) Oh. Daniel (01:00:47.799) Hehehehe Daniel (01:01:03.08) I... Kevin (01:01:05.533) He was excommunicated, yeah, it didn't go well. And burned at the stake. Ha ha ha. Daniel (01:01:06.882) I forgot about him. Yes. Isn't he also the first one to ever say, but we've always done it that way? I think he was known for that too. Yeah. It was in Latin, of course. But always have a done it that way is. Kevin (01:01:14.589) He was, he was the first one. Yes, yes, he was. He was in Latin. Kevin (01:01:24.305) Ave, donatus, thisisueis. I think ave means hail, that's all I know. Ave Maria, ave. Yes, ave. Ave la playa. Behold the beach. Daniel (01:01:32.922) Yeah, well, he was getting people's attention. When they were busy doing new things, he was saying, hey, you. Daniel (01:01:42.194) We've always done it this way. Yeah, yeah. And so it was important to, as he was having his Christmas celebrations on the beach. Yeah. Which honestly, though, some parts of the world, I'm sure do have Christmas celebrations. I think I've seen pictures of Santa Claus on the beach in Australia. I think during the summer celebrations. Yeah, yeah. So interesting. Yeah. Kevin (01:01:51.062) Right, right. Kevin (01:02:01.185) I'm sure. I mean, I'm sure. Gosh, I hope he has a summer wear, like summer outfit, because that would be hot. Daniel (01:02:13.03) I think I think I saw him in shorts. I think I saw him in shorts. Yeah. But still with the beard, which I imagine would be would be very uncomfortable in the summer. Kevin (01:02:13.421) The Santa Claus suit. Yeah. Kevin (01:02:23.381) Yeah, yeah, it's a European holiday. I mean, it's just no way around it. It just, and just like the robes, the choir robes and stuff, they all presume, you know, cold castles and monasteries and things. Daniel (01:02:35.242) Yeah. Well, Southern Hemisphere board game faith friends, please let us know. We'd be interested in hearing more about this in your part of the world. Yeah. And in your winter. Yeah. Kevin (01:02:37.869) Anywhere. Kevin (01:02:43.221) Yeah, what are you doing this summer? In your in your winter, our summer. You're in your winter, which is our summer. Oh, it's so weird. Daniel (01:02:53.558) The world is a fascinating place. Kevin (01:02:56.169) It's amazing. Let's keep it that way. Well, folks, we have a newsletter. It goes out on Sundays. Sign up. Yep. Daniel (01:02:57.595) So. Daniel (01:03:01.474) Please sign up. Yep, we just sent one out. You can sign up for our newsletter by going to our link tree, which is in the bio of our Instagram account, our Facebook account, or you can just email us if you want to sign up for our newsletter. It's free, by the way. And you can sign up for it, either of those link tree places or by emailing us at info at boardgamefaith.com or boardgamefaith at gmail.com. Kevin (01:03:06.486) It was great. Kevin (01:03:29.547) Mm-hmm. Kevin (01:03:32.897) That's right, that's right. Find us, we've got Patreon and we've got Instagram. Daniel (01:03:33.034) We also have a Patreon. Go ahead. Yes. Yep. And one of the things where we've been trying to remind folks to do recently that I just recently found out about is that if you feel so moved, if you would like to rate and review us, leave a written review on wherever you listen to this podcast or even watch it on YouTube, but if you listen like on Apple podcast or Spotify, apparently that lets the algorithms know that we are a podcast to recommend to other people. So we'd love that. Appreciate that if you wouldn't mind. leaving us a review and a rating, that would be wonderful please. Kevin (01:04:09.801) If you recommend us, we'll recommend you. Daniel (01:04:12.642) That's right. Kevin, I rate and review you. I rate and review you five stars on a scale of three stars. And my review is one word, amazing. Kevin (01:04:23.249) Heheheheheheh Kevin (01:04:28.697) Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Kevin (01:04:33.789) As a type one, I enjoy that, but I also think that you're probably not being fair, so I'm not sure I can trust you, but I do appreciate it. Yay! Alright folks, have a great rest of your two weeks. We'll see you in a bi-weekly format. Daniel (01:04:51.478) Alright, thanks so much for listening everybody. Bye bye. Kevin (01:04:53.549) Bye. Kevin (01:05:02.333) My chord is in the way. Stop.