Daniel (00:04.558) So the other day we were playing a game with friends. The game is called Fun Facts. And it posed this question. On a scale of 1 to 100, how well would you survive a zombie apocalypse? We all answered secretly, and then we had to rank ourselves based on what we thought the other folks around the table would say. And it was all fun, of course, and we laughed a lot. But it also got me thinking. about how well I would do in life without all the comforts and supports so many of us enjoy in our corner of the world. How well would I survive? And what would you say for yourself? This episode, we are diving into an online video about thousands of people role-playing life in a post-apocalyptic world. And we're asking what that kind of unique group activity has to teach us about games, religion, and life. It's another installment of AV Club on this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Daniel (01:31.838) Hello and welcome everybody. We are so glad to have you here joining us for another episode of Board Game Faith. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:41.629) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (01:44.378) And welcome, welcome to all of our listeners. If you're listening to this in podcast form or all of our viewers, those of you who may be watching on YouTube, we are so grateful to have you here today and grateful that you're spending a few moments with us of your day. So Kevin, what would you say? How well... Kevin (02:07.526) Daniel. Daniel (02:10.53) Do you think you would survive a zombie apocalypse on a scale of 1 to 100? Kevin (02:16.126) Oh, you know, it's so weird because I'm having to imagine. And so I don't really know. I think I'd survive terribly unless. I give myself if 100 is that I would definitely survive. I'm probably like a 20. Daniel (02:23.854) That's okay. Daniel (02:32.778) A 20, okay, that's good. Yeah. Kevin (02:34.385) 15. I think it would depend on if I have a reason to survive like if I'm trying to keep You know a child alive or something that would make it easier, but I you know, I am a creature of comfort I mean i'm not a camping dude Right I like bathing. Um, yeah, I um, I'd probably spend the whole time just sweeping out the tent Right Daniel (02:49.207) I was going to ask about kind of your survivalist skills in your toolbox. Yeah, yeah. I don't blame you. Daniel (03:01.96) Mm. That's also an important skill. Yeah. Kevin (03:04.437) Yeah, but also important is guarding from zombies and eating. Um, I did read the world war Z. The novel is that the movie's based only loosely based on, but in it, it has kind of guides for surviving a zombie attack. So I did read that. That would be useful when the main things is never go up in a building. Because then you can't get out. So you're trapped. So if you ever go into a house, don't go up to the second floor. Daniel (03:23.099) Oh, okay. Daniel (03:27.16) Why? Daniel (03:30.551) Really? Daniel (03:34.462) Okay, so zombies apparently are good at climbing steps and all of that. They can, they can. Kevin (03:40.773) that or even if you take the steps out you can't go anywhere and if they eventually find a way up or you need food you're stuck so you never want to go up. You always want to have a way to I guess run away. It's a very you know the rabbit from Holy Grail. You always want to run away. Daniel (03:47.952) Oh, never go up. Okay, okay. Okay. Daniel (03:58.57) Okay, okay. That's good, I will have to remember that. Kevin (04:00.353) which was written by Max Brooks, who's Mel Brooks' son. Daniel (04:05.578) World War Z was written by Mel Brooks' son? Really? Kevin (04:07.357) World War Z. Yes. It's a really good book, actually. It's very interesting. It's good. So yeah, what about you? How likely are you to survive? Daniel (04:16.266) I like that. I... Daniel (04:23.558) I put one or zero. I asked first, I said, now can these... I said... Well, I asked first, I said, can these zombies feel guilt or shame? Because if so, then I've got a little chance. Kevin (04:27.541) Just look. Daniel, we've talked about your low confidence issues and I think we need to go there today. What? Daniel (04:46.518) Cause you know, that's really, it's really the Mennonites only weapon is guilt and shame. It's like, come on. Come on, zombie. What would your mother think if she saw you right now? What would, did she raise you to be a flesh eating zombie? Really? No. I mean, I hope I. Kevin (04:46.86) What you're gonna shame them out? Kevin (04:53.439) I've been stuck in this house for two weeks. Don't you feel terrible? Now let us out. Kevin (05:01.455) Hehe Kevin (05:07.068) Right. Daniel (05:10.922) I'd like to think it was a little bit more than one, but who am I kidding? I don't have a lot of survivalist skills and I'm not trying to beat myself up. I've got other skills, but surviving the zombie apocalypse I think is probably not one. Kevin (05:23.569) Would you survive a Mad Max type world without zombies, but just with weird gasoline and community rules? Daniel (05:35.022) That's a great question. So a world, a post-apocalyptic world, where we're not necessarily having to fend off people who are trying to eat us all the time, but just where there's a collapse of society. Kevin (05:47.909) Societies collapse, society as we know it has collapsed, new societies have returned, but they're very much like Viking type, it's barter and it's pillage and it's raw survival. Daniel (06:00.334) Hmm. Daniel (06:04.782) I don't know, that's a good question. I don't know. I think if I felt like there was a place for people who are wired like I am, then I guess that's kind of a circular reasoning there. But I'd survive if there was a place for people like me to survive, I guess. I don't know, what do you think? Kevin (06:26.929) But you would, I think that's the problem, a society of you wouldn't survive. You would have to find survivalists that you, sort of like the zombies, you would have to be attached to people that can survive. Daniel (06:34.718) Yeah, yeah. It's a... So, what do you think? Why are we talking about this today, Kevin? What is the impetus? Kevin (06:49.044) Because in today's AV Club, we are looking at some people that pretended to do this. Daniel (06:59.266) Tell us more. Kevin (06:59.953) And yes, so there is a channel called People Make Games featuring Quinn Smith. Is that right? Quinn's which how does anyone get the name Quinn's? Like it's not even Quinn, it's Quinn's. So I did know it. I did know a Quinn once but... Daniel (07:07.691) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (07:13.696) I think... Yeah, and I think I saw at the end of the video, I think his real name is Quinton, but he just goes by Quins, it sounds like. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (07:22.485) Oh, okay, that makes more sense. Okay. I'm like, because that's a great name and it's very cool and very unusual So Quentin, okay, so Quinn's Smith is famously attached to The channel that I just shut up and sit down so and he's great on that and this is sort of a side gig that he does about I About people that are making games, so it's not so much reviewing board games as people that are Daniel (07:27.584) Yeah. Daniel (07:38.282) Yeah, Board Game Review Channel. Yeah. Kevin (07:50.045) are creating kind of games that are not corporate, are not really for sale by larger board game industry. Is that fair? Daniel (08:00.07) And different kind of games like video games too and live action games and such. Kevin (08:04.345) Yeah, and there was one about the Excel championships where people have to race to do an Excel spreadsheet with formulas. And it's a real thing. It's like a Excel Olympics. Yeah. Yeah, it's a big deal. So they're covering really interesting stuff. It's very it's the guy I love what Quinn's does in general, just because I appreciate I don't always agree with his reviews, but. Daniel (08:13.258) I didn't see that. That's amazing. Cool, cool. That's great. Kevin (08:30.341) I always appreciate his perspective and his, he's very curious, his curiosity. So they traveled to the Mojave Desert, which I believe is somewhere near some part of the United States. Daniel (08:44.166) I believe it is. I think it's west of North Carolina, and it's north of Paraguay. Kevin (08:46.253) I think it's west of North Carolina. Daniel (08:57.266) I believe I wouldn't have I have to admit I looked this up it's in it's in California I believe but and We have a lot of California listeners California listeners, I we I apologize that we don't know the geography better That would be awesome that would be that would be Yeah, if you are listening from near the Mojave Desert, please Kevin (09:03.437) Okay, I was gonna guess California. Kevin (09:11.133) What if someone's listening in the Mojave Desert right now and they just gotta chill? Which is good, because it's very hot there. Or maybe it's not now, because it's winter. Daniel (09:22.27) Drop us a line. We'd love to know more about it. We're going to give you our details at the end of the episode today. Kevin (09:23.95) Right. Kevin (09:27.205) Yes, with some sand. We want a little sand in the envelope. Or you could do a postcard and glue a little sand to it and see if it makes it. Daniel (09:32.194) be. and it would be glittery. It would look like glittered, a glittered postcard, but it would be sand. Kevin (09:41.329) And there's a little gold in there and then we have the moral dilemma of do we tell you just sent us gold? Or do we just buy Daniel a new microphone? And it would be tough. It would be tough. Because yeah, so they made this video where several thousand people, is that right? Four thousand people spend five days called Wasteland Weekend. Daniel (09:47.447) Mmm. Daniel (09:51.613) Mmm. Daniel (09:59.53) Like I think 4,000 people. In fact, I think the name of the video, yeah. The name of the video is that, yeah. Kevin (10:08.565) And it involves even before this five days, they have to build the entire camp. So they have to provide a place that is safe. And you think about thousands of people, you got to have food, you got to have some kind of bathroom shelter, you're going to have to have medical, you know, if someone gets hurt or sick. So it's kind of like Burning Man. I would think like it's a complicated situation or that maybe they're not very far from a town. I don't know. But anyway, um, Daniel (10:08.588) Yeah. Daniel (10:28.77) Yeah. Kevin (10:36.125) Quite an undertaking that to build the structure and people go out and it's a Mad Max type thing theme, which is sort of a post-apocalyptic desert diesel engine survival. It's a very strength, it's very niche. It's very hyper interest, is that fair? Daniel (10:54.254) Yeah, for sure, for sure. Kevin (10:55.909) Like a world that has been reduced to bartering, but they love engines and cars. Daniel (11:01.974) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (11:04.854) So they go to kind of film and participate in Wasteland Weekend and to see what that's like. Because one of the things they're doing is they're wanting to present this as a game and how people have created this very indie type unique game. And I just thought it was fascinating. What did you think, Daniel? Did you? Daniel (11:18.998) right? Daniel (11:24.991) Right, right. Daniel (11:29.43) Yeah, thanks. I mean, I have to admit, I was kind of, I didn't quite know what to do with it. Yeah, when you first, this was your suggestion. It was a good suggestion. I mean, I appreciate it. But yeah, it didn't quite, I didn't know what to do with it at first. I have to admit that I don't do a lot of stuff with like, I don't do a lot of games like that, right? Like Kristen and I. Kevin (11:47.609) Right. Kevin (11:55.681) And you were disappointed they didn't curse more, correct? You typically curse more when you play, is that true? Daniel (12:02.146) I'm a cursing machine. That's right. It's no, I'm not. I'm not. No, the worst I get is if I say fiddlesticks, I'm getting street. That's how I'm. But no, but yeah, I'm glad you said that. Yeah, just to let our listeners know and viewers know, there is a fair amount of foul language in the video. So just be warned if that's something that you want to. Kevin (12:08.645) Yeah, I'm kidding. They do curse a lot. So. Me too. Kevin (12:14.841) Right, right. Kevin (12:29.247) Mm-hmm. Daniel (12:29.878) you want to be aware of and not child-friendly in terms of the language. I think in terms of most everything else it is. Well, no. There's some little simulated fighting too in there. So anyway, just be aware of that. It was OK. I was intrigued why you maybe suggested it, because it wasn't. Kevin (12:53.094) Hmm. Daniel (12:59.946) the kind of thing that I normally might get into as much or think about. I was excited when I first read about it in the email when you talked about the cosplay, at first I read Coldplay and I thought, oh, it's Coldplay, I love it. But then, no, there was no plaintiff, ephemeral, transcendent piano ballad about the meaning of life. It was... Kevin (13:28.973) Right. You thought it was Coldplay and board games and it was cosplay without any board games at all. Yeah. Daniel (13:29.59) It was Mad Max people. Daniel (13:34.27) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so what made you suggest this, Kevin, if I may ask, and why did you think it would be good? Kevin (13:40.669) Oh Kevin (13:44.013) You know, I watched it just out of curiosity, and then I just found myself really drawn in to how they told the story of them trying to understand this world and what they're supposed to do, and their diverging paths. It's so well made, this little documentary, really. But then at the end, I just found it very touching what people said about community. And it just made me think that there's something Daniel (13:46.519) Yeah. Daniel (13:51.307) Yeah. Daniel (13:58.124) Yeah. Daniel (14:08.982) Mm-hmm. It. Kevin (14:13.553) they're connected with the gaming experience. Maybe that's what it's getting at. Even though they're not actually playing a board game, it's kind of why people do play board games. Daniel (14:20.099) Mmm. Daniel (14:25.526) Right. Kevin (14:26.961) So I think it's the last 10 minutes that really made me sit up, you know, beyond just sort of lounging and watching this thing. Daniel (14:32.567) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think the end of it really, I really found it very endearing and charming and glad that I watched it by the end of it. Yeah, yeah, no, it was good. But you're right, at the beginning, it's really exploring kind of the game aspect of this. I guess we should say, Quinn's is also joined by Chris Bratt, B-R-A-T-T. And then I also, I understand behind the scenes is another... Kevin (14:44.699) Oh, that's great. Yeah. Kevin (15:01.102) Mm-hmm. Daniel (15:05.762) person, Annie Sayers, who helps create the show. But yeah, and you're right. So like they assume these roles, right? They assume these roles that very kind of game-like and including like having a new name, right? So like a wasteland name. So Chris is Muckraker and Quinn's is Carrion. You know, like the dead, the dead. Kevin (15:08.317) Okay. So hats off to them. Kevin (15:22.969) Mm-hmm. Kevin (15:31.072) He's so cute. Daniel (15:33.715) the dead animal bodies, which at first I thought he was like carry on like, you know, what you bring onto a plane, but it wasn't. It wasn't carry on luggage. It was carrying like what the vultures eat. So Kevin (15:39.289) Like, right, carry on. If I was one of the experienced guys, they are probably would have ridiculed him, like called him carry on and what are you carrying on carry on and sort of like he wanted a very heavy metal name and he had actually a lame name. Daniel (15:53.57) Yeah. Daniel (15:57.054) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Chris role played a journalist, right? Because there was a newspaper in Wasteland that kind of reported on what's happening. And then Quinn's role played a trader, like a T-R-A-D-E-R, someone who exchanges things, not a trader, one who betrays. So yeah. And. Kevin (16:10.097) Yeah! Kevin (16:18.297) Mm-hmm. Kevin (16:22.79) Right. Daniel (16:26.154) And that especially, I found that in terms of like thinking about this as a game, I found Quinn's journey as one who traded especially interesting because he starts off like you're saying, Kevin, I mean, he really approaches this as a game, right? He says, I've got these items here to start off with that I wanna trade and he had these quests, right? That he had to trade this for that and that for that and that for that. And it's... Kevin (16:48.377) Mm-hmm. Kevin (16:54.789) Yeah, and this and side note, this is something they do if you're new to it, they kind of, because you don't know what to do. So one thing is you could take on this quest, which is trade these things. So it's kind of a written opening scenario. Daniel (16:55.968) Yeah. Daniel (17:04.158) Right, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it'd remind me very much of kind of resource management in a lot of board games, right, where you trade two pieces of wood. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, two pieces of wood for a gold, a gold for a platinum. Or you know, like you do in a lot of resource management games. And it reminded me of another video, Kevin, that you and I haven't talked about. And actually, not a video, an article that I read. Kevin (17:13.657) Yes, and that's how he approached it. Naturally. Daniel (17:37.65) online at the BBC. But I think you can read about it a lot more. It originated in TikTok about this person, Demi Skipper, D-E-M-I is her first name, Skipper, S-K-I-P-P-E-R. And there's a report about how she started with a hairpin and through a series of trades, traded... from a hairpin all the way up to a new house, or not a new house, but a house that's new to her. She traded for me, isn't that wild? And like, I think it was like she traded a hairpin for some old junk earrings. And then she traded the old junk earrings up for like some margarita glasses. And then the, and kept going and kept going and kept going until eventually she got a house, right? And it reminded me kind of like what Quinn's trying to do here at the beginning of this video, right? He starts off with, Kevin (18:12.145) That's crazy. Kevin (18:19.933) Mm-hmm. Daniel (18:37.806) What did he start off with? Like a, it was like a scented candle. Wasn't it? Wasn't it a scented candle? Kevin (18:41.181) Right, right. He tried to bring in things he thought would be a value in this world, which they have no currency beyond barter and then bottle caps, which is really funny. So bottle caps are like a currency. Daniel (18:46.155) Right, right. Daniel (18:50.114) Auto caps, yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he keeps trading up and up and up. And it seems like the greatest achievement he gets is, I don't know, like a car windshield reflector mat or something like that or visor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, I feel like I'm talking a lot. I'm sorry, before I get to the, but then part. Okay, well, but then. Kevin (19:07.653) Yeah, like a visor thing. Kevin (19:15.53) No, no, you're... Daniel (19:19.25) Yeah, he has this kind of moment where he says like, I'm trying to remember his exact words. Oh, that's right. He said after a day or two of gaming that he had this realization that he had done something horrible, which is that he said he had brought the attitude of a gamer to the weekend and that had ruined it so far for him. Kevin (19:41.19) oooo Daniel (19:47.35) Did you catch that? Do you have any thoughts on it? And then there was like this little spiritual, emotional, psychological shift in him. Yeah, do you have any thoughts on that? Or I thought that was so interesting. Kevin (19:49.41) I did. Kevin (19:55.437) Mm-hmm. Well, first off, it's great storytelling. You know, that's the hero's journey type bits, right? so that that's how you make a documentary that is interesting is creating conflict and mistakes and So that's just the art of filmmaking but in some ways, but yeah, no, it's right Like he was thinking I guess he was looking at it as victory points and trying to achieve the quest Well, and the point of this weekend was really Daniel (20:01.078) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (20:24.773) to have fun and meet people. So if this is a game, the win condition is integrating into a new community and enjoying that community. That's the victory condition. And he was playing the wrong game, which is, I will be the best trader here. If I do this really well, then they'll like me. But that's not, it's the... Daniel (20:40.129) Right. Daniel (20:46.999) Yeah. Daniel (20:50.7) Right. Kevin (20:54.285) It's all pretend, and so the minute you walk away, it's just junk. That's the weird bit, the irony of it, is it's not real life and it's not a game, it's something different, it's kind of an experience. Daniel (21:04.782) Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. Kevin (21:07.061) So if you were, you know, if we changed it up, if you were volunteering at your local soup kitchen and in the midst of that when you're serving a meal your goal was to be the most efficient producer of roast beef sandwiches at the event, people might look at you funny, right? Daniel (21:30.307) Mmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I like that. I like that Kevin (21:33.281) because you were there for efficiency instead of the opportunity to help others, but also to form new relationships with other people serving and the people that are coming for help. Like, that's part of the game you're actually playing, and you're playing the wrong game, which is, you know, if we reduce this by 0.2 milliliters, then we'll save this ministry $400 a year or something. Daniel (22:00.502) Right, right. That's so good. It reminds me of a story I heard from a pastor in a Christian church years ago, but just. Kevin (22:13.237) He was a pastor at a Buddhist temple and no one knew what he was talking about. It was very strange. We talk about Moses and they would just scratch their heads. So then he got a Christian church and it worked out better. Daniel (22:18.626) That's right, that's right, that's right. That's right, that's right. And then, I guess in this particular story there were, I mean, it's probably apocryphal, but I think it's told to make a point, which I think is valid, which is that, you know. putting these two volunteers to work together to wash dishes after the church supper that night, right? And then, and a third person comes up and says, hey, you know, this person over here is so much more efficient, right, at washing the dishes. Like, they do this professionally, they're really good. And they can wash the dishes in half the time. Kevin (22:52.349) Mm-hmm. Daniel (23:08.802) And it doesn't make sense that you're putting these two people who are really slow together. And the pastor's response was, well, you know, the point really isn't washing the dishes. The point is, you know, the people getting to know each other and care for each other and working together. And yeah, yeah. Kevin (23:20.945) Yeah, yeah, that's the game that you're actually playing in the sense of there is a goal. I'm defining game loosely as something with a purpose Which maybe that's not a accurate use of the word game but But you are entering a magic circle bit like we're gonna come here we're gonna do this thing and we're gonna leave and then there is a win condition which is we achieve What we the goals of this game and their obstacles which is? your Daniel (23:28.959) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (23:50.565) You don't know these people, you feel uncomfortable, you have imposter syndrome, anxiety, you feel like you're in the wrong place. some of the people may be coming to help make you feel uncomfortable. So there are obstacles to achieving that goal, yeah. So it is kind of a game. Daniel (24:09.546) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Related to that. Kevin (24:12.517) But it's funny. Yeah, that's absolutely that. That's ministry is. creating the sense of community and belonging, which is not about optimization. Yeah, that's right. I hadn't thought of that. That's great. And so Quince has to realize that he's playing the wrong game versus his buddy there whose name I will recall as I look at my notes and his name is Chris. Daniel (24:22.286) Mm-hmm. Kevin (24:37.981) Chris is much more kind of open-minded, strolling around, just sort of seeing what happens, and Quinn submits that Chris is doing a better job at playing that game. Which is like, I guess I'll go do this. Daniel (24:48.183) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (24:53.226) And I feel sorry for Chris. He has a very, he has a kind of a moment of vulnerability there in the video where he covers himself in white body paint the whole time, right? He calls himself a war boy thing or yeah, yeah. Something like that. And I guess to enhance the effect, he uses some zinc powder or whatever. Kevin (25:08.089) Right. Which is a Mad Max thing. Like, it's just a thing. Yeah, war boy. Kevin (25:20.785) Mm-hmm. Daniel (25:21.714) And at some point he realizes that he's been applying it incorrectly and it's making him terribly sick. It's something called like metal vapor syndrome or something like that. Which they say is like the most post-apocalyptic metal name for an illness ever. Metal Vapor Syndrome or like the zinc shakes, I think they call it as well. But he gets to be okay. He gets to be okay then. Kevin (25:31.182) He's poisoned himself. Kevin (25:37.905) You're right. Kevin (25:44.482) Oh my gosh. What's your bit about that this concert so metal will spray you with viruses? What's your joke? It's like that. Our cosplay is so realistic. You will get sick. Daniel (25:52.134) No, that's right. That's right. Kevin (25:59.313) Cough. Daniel (26:01.408) So yeah, but yeah, you're right. I think he has much more of a posture of just kind of taking in the experience and not trying to kind of optimize it to a future-oriented goal. It reminded me, yeah, go ahead. Well just, and then I want to hear yours, but thank you. You and I are both going through this book. Kevin (26:10.065) Yeah. Kevin (26:14.213) Sort of side note, what? Go ahead, no, you go ahead, go ahead. Kevin (26:20.495) Okay. Daniel (26:24.93) 4,000 weeks time management for mortals. You're a much faster reader than I am. Good job, good job. Okay, okay, cool, cool. Kevin (26:26.51) I finished it actually. I had an audio book and I am in the car some, which by the side note audio books are frustrating because you can't take notes and things and you can't really mark or go back very easily, but it is so nice to be able to listen to a book on a drive. But anyway, yeah. Daniel (26:38.186) Hmm. Right. Yeah, yeah, I could see that. I could see that. Yeah. Thanks. No, thanks. But one of the point, and spoilers, we're going to talk about this book in an upcoming episode as well. But one of the points that he makes about that in that book is that sometimes we can put in so much effort to be present. Kevin (26:55.473) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (27:07.742) to a moment that we're not present to that moment. Right? Like, and it's because he says it's just another way of getting into this mindset that we're trying to escape, which is gotta optimize every moment, right? To make, so I can be better prepared for the future, you know, and so like, so I can lead a fulfilled life. I've gotta be optimally present to this moment. And you're so focused on being present to this moment that you're not really present to this moment, right? Yeah. Kevin (27:11.505) Right. So funny. Kevin (27:22.258) Right? Kevin (27:35.685) Yeah, even meditation can backfire because you're doing something and in a weird way the present is about accepting the incompleteness of the moment. Yeah, you can't fix it. Very powerful. Daniel (27:37.13) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Daniel (27:44.938) Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So Quinn's response reminded me of that. Yeah, that he was saying like, you know, I really want to enjoy this weekend and so I will be the world's best trader. And then he realizes, I'm really missing out on this by trying to optimize my trading. So, I'm going to go ahead and say, Kevin (27:54.821) Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Kevin (28:01.309) Well, when you play a board game, you are strategizing. Like you are, this is where I want to be, and I'm going to take the most efficient steps to get to this, you know, 100 victory points. So that's exactly how you play a game, or some types of games is optimization and strategy. But yeah, with life and, you know, with your day, with your relationships, that's a disaster. I mean, you're going to be a monster. Daniel (28:24.074) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (28:26.285) and with a cosplay type experience. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it. Really, this whole weekend, I mean, we need to get Oliver Berkman, I believe, is the name of the guy that wrote 4,000 Weeks. He could write a sequel on this wasteland weekend because the whole point of this thing is stressing this living in the moment, right? Daniel (28:36.222) Oliver Berkman is his name, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (28:47.806) Exactly. Yeah. I think it's a theme that we've that's come up a lot over the course of the episodes of this podcast is that, I mean, that's the gift of play. Right. That's however you want to phrase that theologically. God's good gift of play. Yeah, it can be. We can kind of mess it up as well. But. Kevin (28:58.533) Yes, or it can be. Kevin (29:04.805) Board games can occasionally get in the way of play if you take them too seriously. Daniel (29:09.662) Right, but play can, you're right, certainly not always, but it can. Daniel (29:20.47) allow us to truly be present in a way to the moment. by freeing us from kind of this tyranny of feeling like we always have to optimize every moment to get us ready for a better future, you know? Because then that better future never comes because we're always. Kevin (29:39.109) Yeah, you know... Yeah, you're almost making me think, because you're right, but then there is this in the board game itself, you're not doing that, you are planning for a future reality. So maybe when you're playing a game with friends, you're really playing two games. You're playing the game... like you're in the game state, but on another level, you're playing the game of playing with friends. Daniel (29:52.492) Right. Daniel (30:03.294) Right, right, exactly, exactly. Yep. Kevin (30:04.281) It's almost two levels and we can work at that, hopefully if we keep it right, if you don't keep them balanced, then you lose, you get mad, you flip the table, right? So that's where we are operating in two different magic circles in a way. Daniel (30:12.822) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (30:17.586) Yeah, it's like that great Rainer Canizia quote that we've talked about before. He's a famous board game designer for those who are listening, watching, maybe not familiar with his name. He does. I'm almost out of my Rainer Canizia fruitcake. I need to get some more. No, no. You know, what I love about it are the little candied pineapple pieces in the shape of meeples. Kevin (30:25.946) Mm-hmm. Also makes a really good fruitcake. Kevin (30:33.032) I just made that up. That's not true. That's not true. But it may be true. Could be. I don't know that he doesn't make fruit. Daniel (30:44.106) Those are fantastic. When you cut through and then you just see this perfectly shaped candied pineapple meatball in the middle of the slice, it's a little bit of board game. We're making all this up. None of this is true. But yes. But Ryder Kanitsi is a real person. And he has this great quote where he says that something like, the point of a game is to win, but winning isn't the point. Or something like that, which I just think is, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (30:44.509) That's so good. Yeah. Kevin (30:52.518) Right. Kevin (30:56.153) Yeah, yeah, it's a solid fiction. Ahem. Kevin (31:08.889) Yes, that's exactly it. Yes. Yeah, and so that quote there is, one way to read that is, really you're playing two different games at the same time. And yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. That's it. Yeah, no, I'm just rambling. Daniel (31:19.722) Right, right. I think we've talked about it. Go ahead, sorry. I keep interrupting you. Yeah. I think we've talked about it before on this episode. It's kind of like, you know, like, the framing of a house, you know, like, the two by fours and studs inside of our walls and our ceilings, like the framing of a house, you absolutely need for the house to exist, right? For it to be, for it to be, for it to hold itself up and not to fall apart. But the framing is at the point of the house. You need the goal of winning for a game to exist. But the winning isn't really the point of the game. Right. Yeah. Kevin (31:51.622) Mm-hmm. Kevin (31:58.981) Right. And so Quins kind of has to go on the hero's journey of realizing what game he should be playing. And what's interesting, here's the bit with community. Community is never free. Maybe it's this. Community in a sense is free in that it accepts you, but it's not cheap. Daniel (32:06.295) Yeah. Kevin (32:20.389) Because to be a part of a community means you have to make some sort of sacrifice of time, of energy, of investment. And that's part of what he has to learn is you can't just walk in and be a part of this community. You have to kind of pay your dues, which means attempting to make a costume. It means following their rules. It means attempting to integrate and learn and stepping out of comfort zones. And once you do all that. Daniel (32:45.87) Hmm. Kevin (32:47.101) then you're in the community. So there's an initiation element. And it's so true, like you don't, you don't make friends just completely out of the blue. You may meet someone out of the blue, but to be friends, you have to make plans together, do something together, ask for favors and give favors. Be vulnerable. There's a great bit, Timon of Athens. It's a kind of strange, maybe unfinished play of Shakespeare's, but part of the issue for Timon. Daniel (33:05.11) Right, be vulnerable. Yeah. Kevin (33:17.289) is he never asked for help. And so when tragedy befalls him, he turns into this real lonely, misanthropic, people-hating character. And one way to read it is he always helped others and he never asked for help. And so he never really had friends because to be a friend you have to ask for help. You have to be vulnerable. And communities kind of work a bit that way. You're going to have to Daniel (33:20.558) Hmm. Kevin (33:45.749) know, if you want to be a part of a house of worship, you're gonna have to be in the kitchen helping people, or you join a Sunday school class or educational opportunity, and you show up and you play by the rules. You think? Daniel (34:00.666) That's so interesting. Yeah, an investment of yourself into the community. And maybe part of that investment is a willingness to share your vulnerability, your need, in a way. Because as you're talking about that, I think you're exactly right. I'm thinking about what we might. Kevin (34:04.189) Mm-hmm. Kevin (34:12.838) Yes. Daniel (34:21.478) say in our theological circles like the family of God, right? Like you're having a place in the family of God. And in some ways you might say, and I believe this, of course, you know, like no matter who you are, you are welcome in the family of God, right? Like you belong in the family of God. But then it gets me thinking like, you know, I think there is truth to what you're saying as well, that it feels like there's something for that to be real to a person, for that to... to feel real to a person, I think there's almost some sort of need to share our vulnerableness, our brokenness in it. Kevin (35:06.885) Mm-hmm. To share burdens, to be a friend. Yeah, a friend in need is a friend indeed. And those sorts of ideas, friendship and communities are based on mutual need, mutual sacrifice and respect and rules. There are certain rules. So if you walked into this wasteland weekend and walked around saying, this is stupid, y'all are just pretending, this is stupid. Why don't you use real money? That's not, they're not going to accept you. Daniel (35:12.991) Yeah. Daniel (35:34.326) Right, right, right. Kevin (35:35.873) You have to be respectful. You have to play by the rules. You have to earn the right to be there on a certain level, meaning you're willing to make those sacrifices. And then once you do it, you find a community of people that they come back every single year. I mean, that is their family. It's amazing. Daniel (35:43.318) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (35:52.714) Yeah. Like they've been doing it since 2010, I think. I read somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin (35:57.113) Yeah, and the logistics of it is just, I would like to watch a video about how they actually plan it out and pay for it and how you deal with thousands of people. And safety issues, yeah. Daniel (36:03.992) I know, I know, yeah. Daniel (36:10.566) I used to... Yeah. Yeah, it's like... Kevin (36:14.553) And so part of them, the people doing the trading, they're just sitting there waiting for the noobs to come in and they kind of, part of their job is to give them a hard time. Why do they give them a hard time? Because that's how you pay your dues to be a true part of the community. Because if it didn't cost you anything, then it would have no value, I think. I saw this with youth group trips long ago. If the trip was free, people would... Daniel (36:22.795) Mm-hmm. Daniel (36:28.806) Right? Kevin (36:39.137) skip it or come late or whatever but if you charged them ten dollars they'd show up on time and be in they weren't invested so you maybe it's an investment thing you don't get the dividend if you're not invested in the community and you have to do that by making some sacrifice of time confusion vulnerability it doesn't have to be money but there has to be an attempt to be wrong maybe i don't know Daniel (36:47.658) Mm. Daniel (37:00.096) Right. Daniel (37:05.002) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (37:06.349) or to sacrifice your comfort for the greater good. and church and houses of worship are the same way. They don't function if people aren't willing to be there and willing to help prepare meals when there's a funeral and those sorts of things. That's what bonds a group together. Daniel (37:29.122) That's so interesting. That's a great insight, Kim. I've never really thought about that in those terms before. Yeah, that really authentic community is, in some ways, kind of an experience of shared vulnerability, shared, yeah, people who are willing to do the risky, make the risky decision to invest their lives in each other. Knowing that means, because, Kevin (37:34.213) Yeah, well thanks. Kevin (37:41.094) Mm-hmm. Kevin (37:57.017) Yeah, ooh, that's a well- that's a nice way to put it. It is risky. Yeah. Absolutely. People are going to let you down. I mean that is just part of being human and Yeah Daniel (37:59.798) Because you know you'll get hurt, or you can get hurt when you invest your life. And in fact, you probably will. Eventually, you'll probably get hurt. Yeah, yeah. But it's the cost of community, I guess, if you want to be a part of a community. Maybe? Kevin (38:14.533) Right? Part of it's reminding me Bonhoeffer, and it's been a long time, but he had some, and he was a German theologian, but he has some line about grace is free, but it's not cheap. He tried to, talking about the grace of Jesus Christ, like, trying to say that it's freely available, but it's not something cheap, meaning that you just kind of, like, oh great, thanks, and keep living your life. Like, it should cost you something in the sense of Daniel (38:26.687) Hmm. Kevin (38:44.365) and investment. Daniel (38:45.63) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we're probably... Go ahead, go ahead. Well, I think we're already getting into it. But I wondered if we could maybe just kind of officially, more officially transition into kind of a closing session where we talk about the takeaways of the video. And I think we're already getting into that, like what lessons we learned from this video. Kevin (38:47.877) Because I think he felt what... Yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, no, no. I'm done. Kevin (39:06.533) Yes, although I do... what do you think it is about the post-apocalyptic theme? What is it that people like about this? Daniel (39:11.118) Yes, yes, thank you. Well, that was certainly one of my big responses video is why do we find post-apocalyptic the post-apocalyptic theme so fascinating as human beings, right? Because we do we go out into the into the desert and we We simulate it. We have board games about a post-apocalyptic world Kevin (39:27.729) Yeah. Daniel (39:39.094) I know one of the favorite genres of TV shows and movies that my wife, Kristen, and I like to watch is this post-apocalyptic theme. And Kristen especially really, really loves this theme, and I do as well. And what's interesting is that I don't think... Kevin (39:53.676) Mm-hmm. Daniel (39:57.418) At first you think, oh, this is just kind of a very modern phenomenon, right? Because we have—because it's only in the modern world that we have things like the potential of nuclear war, you know, or we're thinking about zombies. But I don't—and so I think my initial response is to think, well, this is a very modern experience, but I'm not sure that's true. And it got me thinking, you know, our word— apocalypse, you know, it's actually it's a biblical word. It comes, you know, it's the word that gives us revelation. When we have the book of Revelation at the end of the Christian Bible, that word revelation is, I mean, the Greek word behind it is apocalypse, you know, as we anglicize it. And that Revelation, the book of Revelation at the end of the Bible itself is an example of this very ancient literary genre of apocalyptic literature where Kevin (40:28.381) Mm-hmm. Kevin (40:34.517) Mm-hmm. Kevin (40:46.135) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniel (40:49.842) You probably know a lot more about this than I do, but this was actually pretty common back in the ancient Mediterranean world, that people would write these stories, these narratives, these apocalyptic stories and narratives about how everything ends, right? And it's kind of the ultimate victory of God and God's people, right? And so this idea of a post-apocalyptic world, Kevin (41:07.052) Mm-hmm. Daniel (41:17.11) it's in a way it's been around at least since the Bible, right, before. And why do we find it so fascinating? Why do people find it fascinating in the Bible? Because, you know, people love to talk about the book Revelation. And why do we find it so popular in TV shows and movies? And I've got maybe a couple of thoughts on that. Before I dive into that, I mean, yeah, I mean, Kevin (41:32.731) Yeah. Daniel (41:45.798) even just that topic. Does that make sense? Has that been your experience too, Kevin, about that we just seem really fascinated by this theme and yeah. Kevin (41:54.297) Absolutely. No, it is fascinating. People love it. And it continues to grow and change and shows continue to be written. I do think it's probably a modern thing to have post-apocalyptic. The apocalyptic literature of... It starts with the Jews and the Christians use it as well. So it's really the Jews and Christians of that era. I don't think they thought about it afterwards. Like the apocalypse would mean the end. So we have this modern version of... Daniel (42:21.218) Mm-hmm. Kevin (42:23.729) There's an apocalypse that somehow some people survive. I guess, like in the book of Revelation, there are people who are surviving. I can't, well there really aren't people though, are there? It's more of visions of things. Daniel (42:26.922) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (42:34.626) They're kind of like surviving in this new Jerusalem, in this new creation, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in a different form. Kevin (42:39.259) Yeah. Like you might have people during the apocalypse, but in general there's nothing after it because after it is the consummation of history. So it's really a modern thing. It does make me wonder, I mean, people love vampire stories. They like zombie stories. So it's another genre with people like science fiction. Daniel (42:48.779) Right. Daniel (42:54.968) Yeah. Daniel (42:59.498) Yeah. I mean, that reminds me also, I've heard sometimes it explained that we like to kind of poke at the things that we are most afraid of, right? And that our fascination with zombies is we're afraid of death. And that's kind of our way of poking at our fear of death a little bit. To me, a couple of things that created me was maybe why we're fascinated by this is, Kevin (43:11.069) Sure. Kevin (43:18.45) Mm-hmm. Daniel (43:28.734) in a strange way, it does kind of feel like there's something almost inherently hopeful about them too, that this idea that even when everything falls apart, there's a little something that survives. You know, like we're, you know, even if the world throws its absolute worst at us, even if we blow ourselves up, you know, in a nuclear holocaust, a nuclear apocalypse, there's going to be a little something that survives. You know, it's just, there's something inherently hopeful, I feel like, about... Kevin (43:33.723) Yes. Kevin (43:56.741) Yeah, they're survival stories. And that people might survive. Daniel (43:57.03) Ironically about post-apocalypticism. Yeah. Yeah Daniel (44:02.658) But then the other thing I think we, I think the other reason I think we humans find it fascinating is I feel like apocalyptic stories and post-apocalyptic stories like a lot of things, science fiction tunes, but I think what there can really be about is about revealing what kind of people we really are. You know, like it's about human nature, like really, like. Kevin (44:25.573) Mm-hmm. Daniel (44:31.67) Like the opening question, right? You know, if we think about how well would we survive the zombie apocalypse, it's kind of a way of, in a silly way, thinking about what kind of person am I really? You know, am I a person who could survive or not? You know, am I a person who... And Kristen and I watched some of the Walking Dead episodes. Kristen watched more of it than I did, and she knows more about it than I do, but, you know... Kevin (44:41.957) Mm-hmm. Daniel (44:55.958) That was something that seemed to come through a lot of those episodes is that it's, in some ways, it's kind of a meditation about who we are really as human beings, you know, and if everything is taken away and we live in this world, if we suddenly live in this world without law, without, you know, social norms and mores, would we be the same people? You know, it's a way to kind of ask that question, you know, who are we really? Kevin (45:21.37) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (45:26.54) I think that's another, yeah. Kevin (45:26.757) Right? No, it is absolutely is. Who are we will who are we really and how far are we willing to go to survive? So we do Daniel (45:33.546) Yeah, yeah. I think it's some ways even, I keep interrupting you. Go for it. Your turn. Kevin (45:38.809) Yeah, no, what it makes me think of the survival shows like Survivor and things. So those are almost a cousin to it, which is people are voting, but it's how far will you go to stay on the island to win the prize? And so we want you and I never got into that. But if you enjoy that you're watching people get voted off. So you're thinking would I would I do what they did? It's a similar vibe in a kind of a fictional non-fictional fictional world. Daniel (45:51.435) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (46:02.73) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (46:07.501) Yeah. Kevin (46:07.867) What would you do to stay on the island to win the prize? Yeah Daniel (46:10.966) Right, right. I think in a weird way, or in a maybe adjacent way, that's kind of what, in some ways, what the book of Revelation, the book of the apocalypse in the Bible, is kind of about too, it's about, it's a revealing of what kind of person are you at the end? Are you gonna be one of the righteous that is saved or not? You know, it's kind of a, I think at least some people can maybe see it that way. I'm not saying that I see it that way. But maybe the authors too? Maybe even the authors. Is that what the author had in mind in writing the book? Again, I'm not saying that's necessarily my view. Kevin (46:39.705) Yeah, some people have read it that, um, so much of that is co- Hm? Sorry? Well, but it doesn't talk about people, I guess, but it's more of, and it's been a while since I've studied it, but it's really a comfort to people that are suffering, that God's in control and the oppressors are going to be dismantled. So it doesn't follow characters and it doesn't follow, people don't really change places. There's no hero's journey here. It's more of a, God is going to strike you down. God's going to strike the oppressor down. Daniel (46:59.91) Yeah. Daniel (47:05.238) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (47:18.941) eventually. God's going to fix everything. So it doesn't... yeah. So really apocalypse today is very different because we do see people... we see individuals doing things to survive. But yeah, I think watching people in extreme situations is always of interest. You know, Man Walks Dog is not a great movie, but Man Walks Dog by being chased by... Daniel (47:19.166) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. That's a good analysis. Daniel (47:33.831) Mm, yeah. Daniel (47:40.139) Yeah. Kevin (47:47.761) MI5 now that's interesting because he's like John Wick or something. Daniel (47:54.378) You know, Man Walks Dog was just a boring premise. And I have no idea why they gave it a sequel. Though that was even, I mean, the first one was boring enough, but Man Walks Dog 2, that was like, why? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (48:02.445) Yes. Yes, right. Kevin (48:08.185) Yeah. And then electric, they called it subtitled electric boogaloo, but there was nothing. There was a, they didn't have music. Daniel (48:12.182) Yeah, what's up with that? It was the whole, the whole, and then episode three was completely in silence. Do you remember that? The third one? It was just like the man walking the dog in silence for 90 minutes. It was awful. Yeah. Kevin (48:21.573) Yeah! Kevin (48:29.221) Right, and it was supposed to be artistically amazing. And I didn't get it. Speaking of that, Tree of Life is that way too. It's supposed to be artistically amazing, but I can't watch it. It's so boring. Nothing happens. Daniel (48:32.426) Yeah, yeah. No, no. Daniel (48:39.894) I have never seen it. Kevin (48:42.557) I'll try it again. I need to try again. I'll try. It's supposed to be great, but... Daniel (48:46.57) So what was your takeaway from this? What's the bottom line for you? Kevin (48:49.177) My takeaway is just how amazingly creative people can be and that I love a world that despite the consumerism that we all suffer from and buying games online and shipping it to us in a box and it's cellophane wrapped, I mean, all that's wonderful. But the fact that people are out there creating what seems to be impossible. and then that other people are gonna put a video on YouTube about this sort of weird experience of pretending to be something you're not and then looking forward to doing it again next year and seeing all your friends. It just gives me a lot of hope and a lot of excitement with that. And I love how people find community there. So in this video, they have a cemetery, they have a kind of street preacher type person, they have a way to... mail yourself a letter of kindness. So it's just all these interesting things they've done to try to bring out the best in people. And it's just great that there's these sparks of hope out there. And that's the kind of person I need to move towards and not just be someone that collects the hottest newborn game. I still want to be that person but just less of that person. Daniel (50:00.982) Yeah, yeah. Amen. Daniel (50:11.182) Hmm. Daniel (50:15.874) Do you think there's a connection between, on the one hand, it's a weekend about what it takes to survive, on the other hand, it's a weekend about how to be a decent, kind, caring human being? And I wonder if there's a connection between the two. Kevin (50:31.73) Yes. Kevin (50:35.697) Say that again, what was the first bit? Daniel (50:36.99) I wonder if there's a connection between the two. On the one hand, it's a question about what do we need to do to survive? And on the other hand, it's about being kind, decent, caring. And I wonder if maybe explicitly or implicitly or consciously or subconsciously, that's the message maybe that maybe what we really need to do to survive at the end of the day isn't about trading in bottle caps or fighting off zombies, but just how to be just decent. Kevin (50:43.097) Yes. Kevin (50:48.877) I see, yeah. Kevin (50:54.129) Right. Daniel (51:05.454) carrying human beings toward each other. Kevin (51:07.665) Mm-hmm. Kevin (51:11.681) Uh, probably, yeah. It's certainly a theme in, say, The Walking Dead. One of the bits in that show that struck me is they were always burying people, and you might think, well, there's zombies everywhere. What's the point of burying people? But I think part of it is they were going to lose their humanity if they did not attempt to bury the dead. Because, you know, the dead don't care. The dead are dead. So it's really an act of respect by the living. And if we... Daniel (51:12.737) I don't know. Daniel (51:31.01) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Daniel (51:38.669) Yeah. Kevin (51:40.225) ever live in a world where you just casually leave bodies out, then we're not human anymore. So yeah, that is an act of kindness and um, yeah, all these people would pretend to live in this world that couldn't exist. Why would you be obsessed with engines and gasoline in the desert? Uh, you would really be focused on um aqueducts, I think would be much more realistic because water. Daniel (51:45.506) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (52:10.637) So the whole thing is kind of ridiculous and that's what makes it sublime. So one of the, one of the people said the week, the week is lovely, kind and cannibalistic. And I just love that phrase because there, there actually aren't cannibals. Like they're just pretending to be cannibals because if you pretend to be cannibals together, you have opportunities to be lovely and kind. Daniel (52:10.654) and ice creams. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (52:32.741) which is stupid, but kind of true. Daniel (52:35.678) Yeah, absolutely. Sounds like a game. And play, yeah, yeah. Kevin (52:38.621) Sounds like a game, that's right. That does sound like a game. Yeah, that is weird, you can't just do it. Like you can't just be, I mean, you could be lovely and kind, but it somehow helps to pretend to be a cannibal as well. That's maybe a different episode, but yeah, we need that, we need that imagination to draw us out and make us kinder maybe, yeah. Daniel (52:54.358) Yeah. Daniel (53:01.623) Yeah. Well, Kevin, I'm glad you recommended this video. It was a really great suggestion. Thank you so much. And we'll have a link to this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Well, I think this was wonderful. Thank you so much. And thank you to our listeners. Yes, next week, kind of related, we're talking about death in gaming. Kevin (53:06.841) Yay! I'm glad I convinced you. Yeah, yeah, so we'll put a link to it. Yep. Kevin (53:17.378) Excellent. Next week, Daniel. Kevin (53:30.494) interesting. Death and gaming. Daniel (53:31.714) Is that right? Death and gaming, how the subject of death is treated in games. So I'm looking forward to that for next week. So yeah, yeah. And yeah, how can they find us? So yeah, how can they find us? Kevin (53:39.857) Wow. Yeah, I'm looking forward to researching it. That's gonna be cool. Folks, yeah, usual like and subscribe. They can find us at boardgamefaith.com and we are on YouTube if you want the visuals. And we are an audio podcast through the player of your choice. So just search us up and whatever you like to listen to podcasts in and we are we are there. We are a key. Or i.e. we're there. I guess it's i.e. Spanish? Daniel (54:11.594) Oh, Spanish. I don't know Spanish. I should know more Spanish. I thought you were saying like, we are a key, a K-E-Y, like a key to something, like a key to happiness or, it was, it was just my Anglo-centric ears. I should have been more open to hearing a different language there, sorry. Kevin (54:13.177) I think it's Spanish. I could have made it up. You should. Kevin (54:23.758) No! That was my perfect Spanish pronunciation. Really good. Kevin (54:34.646) I, if I call the president of Mexico, he thinks I am a native speaker. That's how good I am. Daniel (54:42.418) I've heard that, I've heard that. I have, I've, yeah, that's, I will remember that too for future reference. Kevin (54:43.877) You've heard that about me. Yeah, I'm really good. Kevin (54:50.445) Yes, so we are here and there with video and audio and boardgamefaith.com and we are on Instagram and check us out and drop us a line. We'd love to hear from you. And like and subscribe. Daniel (55:02.158) Awesome. Listeners, viewers, thank you again so much for spending a part of your day with us. We're grateful for you. We hope that you have a wonderful rest of the day and rest of the week, and do not have to put up with a zombie apocalypse anytime in the near future, and we're grateful for you. Kevin, I'm grateful for you too. It's great to hang out with you as always. Thanks. Kevin (55:24.753) Same here Daniel. You've inspired me to work on my shaming techniques against zombies. Daniel (55:33.207) Yeah. Kevin (55:34.594) Would your mother really want you eating that? Daniel (55:38.721) Come on, you're better than that. You're better than that. Kevin (55:42.82) Oh Daniel (55:43.721) Ha ha Kevin (55:46.621) Pretty soon we've got the Zombie Orchestra and they're playing violins and then occasionally one arm just goes flying off. We've lost our first violinist again. Why don't they hire us for SNL skits? That would be hilarious. Daniel (55:49.386) I'm sorry. Daniel (55:53.282) That's right, that's right, that's right. Hehehehe Daniel (56:04.959) I would be honored to ride a skit with you. Kevin (56:07.641) I know it, I know it. Call us Lorne, Michaels, call us Lorne. Bye. Daniel (56:14.252) Alright, bye everybody, thanks.