Daniel: There are great games about fish and fishing and people who fish, and also games about Vikings and zombies and trading in the Mediterranean and fishing in outer space. But what about games built around religion? Can games about religion? be great games too? Can they even be fun? I mean, not just passively fun, but really fun. Today we are thrilled to welcome the Reverend Alice Connor to discuss what makes for a great religion-themed board game. Plus, at the end of this show, we'll each be naming our top three favorite religious-themed board games. On this episode of Board Game Faith the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games! Welcome everybody to Board Game Faith, my name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin: My name is Taylor Kevin. Alice Connor (she/her): And I'm Alice Cotter. Daniel: Alice, welcome so much to Board Game Faith, we are really happy to have you here. Alice Connor (she/her): I'm delighted to be here. Daniel: And Taylor, Kevin, is that how you want to go today? Or are you going Kevin, Taylor? Kevin: Um, I'm not sure yet. Daniel: Okay, that's Kevin: Still Daniel: fine. Kevin: thinking about it. Daniel: You'll Kevin: Okay. Daniel: answer to either one. Kevin: Yes. Daniel: Oh, Kevin: Anything Daniel: well, Kevin: but late for dinner, as my Daniel: don't Kevin: cousin Daniel: call Alice Connor (she/her): Mmm. Kevin: used to say. Daniel: we won't Alice Connor (she/her): Oh Daniel: call Alice Connor (she/her): my gosh. Daniel: you late for dinner. Alice Connor (she/her): You're my dad Kevin: No. Daniel: Well, Alice, again, welcome. We're glad to have you here. Alice is a wonderful person who inhabits the space at the intersection between board games and religion, the thing that this podcast really loves to explore. We first became familiar with Alice through her writings for the Daily Worker Placement, a wonderful online board game. website that includes all sorts of blogs and reviews. And really just were so grateful for Alice's reflections on what makes for good religious-themed board games. And we'll be getting into that in a little bit. But before then, Alice, please tell us a little bit about yourself. Alice Connor (she/her): I would love that. Yeah, so for sure, I write for the dailyworkreplacement.com but I also, everyone in the world has a podcast. I also have a podcast Daniel: Yes. Alice Connor (she/her): with my friend Taylor that you can find by searching for daily work replacement. Our podcast is sort of a child of that, I guess. It's called Table Talk. And we Daniel: Yes. Alice Connor (she/her): talk about whatever we feel like talking about. We just did one on house rules because Daniel: Nice. Alice Connor (she/her): lots of people have ways that they change their games to play them better. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): Anyway, that's just a little plug, sorry. Daniel: No, that's what Kevin: Absolutely. Daniel: you should do. Alice Connor (she/her): I am an Episcopal priest. I just this past weekend had my 19th ordination anniversary, which is kind of wild. Daniel: Congrats. Alice Connor (she/her): And I was also just last night, it was an interview for a new position and they were asking me some questions. And I said, honestly, what my brain is full of is songs that I teach. The Love of Jesus and board game rules. I have, and probably a lot of your listeners would feel the same when you're a giant nerd about board games. I just have hundreds and hundreds of games rules in my head. I could teach Daniel: Hmm... Alice Connor (she/her): them the drop of a hat. I don't Daniel: really? Alice Connor (she/her): know why my brain works that way, but I can remember it. Sometimes it's helpful to refresh myself, but for the most part, I just can do it. It's weird. Daniel: so the rules don't fade over time for ya. Alice Connor (she/her): Mostly no. Daniel: Wow! Alice Connor (she/her): It does depend on the game and its complexity. There certainly, Kevin: Wow, Alice Connor (she/her): we did Kevin: that's, Alice Connor (she/her): have Kevin: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): a post we did about, that time I forgot, a really important rule. Which does happen. I'm not Kevin: Yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): saying I have all Kevin: it happens. Alice Connor (she/her): of it, but it's pretty wild. Like I can teach a room full of 200 people, 70 different games, it's fine. Which is not, Daniel: That's Alice Connor (she/her): I'm not Daniel: awesome. Alice Connor (she/her): trying to boast or anything, I'm just saying I'm trying to articulate who I Kevin: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): am in the world, Daniel: Yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): how I walk Daniel: yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): through Kevin: Are Alice Connor (she/her): the Kevin: you Alice Connor (she/her): world. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: good? Can you remember phone numbers and other stuff like that? Alice Connor (she/her): Um, I do remember numbers, but I couldn't tell you what they're for. Kevin: Right, but you Alice Connor (she/her): Is Kevin: remember Daniel: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): that Kevin: the Alice Connor (she/her): helpful? Kevin: pattern. Do you think your brain is just, is it can walk through the structure or is it as the board comes out, you remember like how do you Alice Connor (she/her): Mm, Kevin: think the triggers work for Alice Connor (she/her): that's interesting. Kevin: unlocking all Alice Connor (she/her): I Kevin: that? Alice Connor (she/her): tend to be a visual thinker. And I would say, how do I wanna say this? Like themes, when I write sermons, my sort of, how do I wanna say this? The theme of the sermon or like an image that I wanna use in the sermon tends to come first rather than. the thing that I want to say about the Daniel: Mm-hmm, Alice Connor (she/her): Bible, Daniel: mm-hmm, Alice Connor (she/her): which Daniel: mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): may seem kind of backwards, but it works. Daniel: No. Yeah, yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): So I think there's something to do with the components and similar that it reminds me what I'm doing, maybe. Yeah. Daniel: That makes Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: sense. Alice Connor (she/her): And I've written some books about women in the Bible and about how to be a better human, which you can find at aliceconnor.com. Daniel: Wonderful. Alice Connor (she/her): And yeah, I just, I have been obsessed with board games for a long time. Like a lot of people, I would say set was of Catan was probably my gateway game to Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): the heavier hobby and, but I haven't played that in a long Kevin: Heavy Alice Connor (she/her): time. Kevin: roughing. That's a good Alice Connor (she/her): I play Kevin: one. Alice Connor (she/her): a lot of other stuff now. Just brought back a pile of games from, from my job that, that were mine, but it's a very large pile of things that I've Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): collected over the years. So. Kevin: And where do you skew more on the Euro side or the Ameritrash slide? Alice Connor (she/her): Mm. I'm not gonna lie, I do have some Ameritrash stuff, but I... I'm gonna say I think that's a false dichotomy. Daniel: ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Alice Connor (she/her): I don't think that everything can be, I certainly don't think everything can be separated into a binary like that. Kevin: That's fair. Alice Connor (she/her): I probably, Kevin: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): I mean, of that binary, I probably lean more towards your own stuff. But I tend to be more interested in things with strange mechanics. Kevin: Hehehe Alice Connor (she/her): Or I do like clacky bits in my game. Like if you, the... fancy clacky bits for Quacks with Quedlinburg that you put in the bag and you make Daniel: Oh, Alice Connor (she/her): lovely Daniel: like Alice Connor (she/her): noise Daniel: the upgrades Alice Connor (she/her): when you... Daniel: from Alice Connor (she/her): the upgraded Daniel: Board Game Geek? Alice Connor (she/her): bits for Quacks. Yes, Daniel: Yes, Alice Connor (she/her): that's so good. Daniel: yes, yes. Alice Connor (she/her): So I do have a little obsession, slight obsession with clacky bits. But like Kevin: Meaning Alice Connor (she/her): I Kevin: like Alice Connor (she/her): like Kevin: sounds Alice Connor (she/her): things that have... Kevin: and physical Alice Connor (she/her): Yes. Kevin: stuff. Alice Connor (she/her): Well, Kevin: Yeah, yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): and the Kevin: that's Alice Connor (she/her): feel, Kevin: cool. Alice Connor (she/her): the... I was Kevin: Uh-huh, yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): gonna Kevin: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): say it's not the mouth feel, it's the hand feel, Daniel: Yeah, absolutely, Kevin: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): which is Daniel: absolutely. Alice Connor (she/her): how you just feel things. Daniel: Hahaha Alice Connor (she/her): No, I like games that have weird mechanics, and I like things that make me think hard. I like a bit of a brain burner. Daniel: Mm Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: hmm. Mm Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: hmm. Like, like difficult decisions, like decisions like you could do this, and it's really good. But you Alice Connor (she/her): Mm. Daniel: could also do this. And it's really good. And that sort of thing where you're trying to weigh, which is the better good to do? Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, yes, Daniel: Perhaps? Alice Connor (she/her): definitely Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): that. But also, while I'm very bad at it, I really enjoy games like Glass Road where it's partly the question of decision, but it's more... We were just saying this on our podcast Table Talk. It's not even a balance. There are three primary elements in that game. How do they interact? How do I make Kevin: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): them... function even like not even function Kevin: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): well just make them function and then function well um glass road of course an older uve rosenberg game um about town building because that's what he does no fish Daniel: Yeah, yeah, no fish, but there is some town building and... Alice Connor (she/her): but there's gruel and wood of course anyway Daniel: Does flax make its way into there? Alice Connor (she/her): No, Daniel: No, that's another Alice Connor (she/her): there's no flax. Daniel: thing. Okay, okay, Alice Connor (she/her): No, there's like Daniel: all Alice Connor (she/her): silt Daniel: right, Alice Connor (she/her): and bricks. Daniel: all right. Ha ha ha. Kevin: I think Daniel: That's Kevin: flax Daniel: great. Kevin: is in the Feast for Odin. Daniel: Maybe, Alice Connor (she/her): Oh, Kevin: Isn't Alice Connor (she/her): it may Kevin: there Alice Connor (she/her): be, Kevin: flax? Alice Connor (she/her): you Daniel: maybe. Alice Connor (she/her): know, I haven't played that yet. It's on my list. Kevin: I think there's flax in that. Isn't it like a wheat thing or something? Alice Connor (she/her): I think so. Daniel: So, so among the games Kevin: I need Daniel: that Kevin: more Daniel: you Kevin: flax Daniel: enjoy, Kevin: in my diet probably. Daniel: we need more Alice Connor (she/her): Who Daniel: flax. Alice Connor (she/her): doesn't? Daniel: Just just the Kevin: A Daniel: flax. Kevin: high flax diet. Daniel: That's right. I flaxed that. Alice Connor (she/her): I, okay, wait, listen, speaking of that high-flex diet, I do Kevin: I'm Alice Connor (she/her): actually Kevin: waiting Alice Connor (she/her): have Kevin: on this Alice Connor (she/her): a game Kevin: one. Alice Connor (she/her): that I kickstarted called So You've Been Eaten that's about mining for jewels in the digestive tract of a giant space monster. Kevin: I've seen that talked about. Yeah. Daniel: Wow. Alice Connor (she/her): It's very good and Kevin: It's good. Alice Connor (she/her): it was designed by a guy who has, I wanna say either Crohn's or IBS or something like that. And so it was Daniel: Ah. Alice Connor (she/her): at least a little bit inspired by his experience of his Kevin: That's Alice Connor (she/her): own gut Kevin: awesome. Alice Connor (she/her): biome. Daniel: Interesting, interesting. Alice Connor (she/her): So Daniel: Has it Kevin: Because it's Daniel: come out Kevin: out. Daniel: yet? Okay, Kevin: I've either, yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): yeah, Kevin: yeah. Daniel: okay. Alice Connor (she/her): it's Kevin: So Alice Connor (she/her): a great two player game. Kevin: that's Daniel: Oh, cool, Kevin: cool. Daniel: cool. Wow. So among the games that you enjoy playing, some of them have religious themes and Alice Connor (she/her): Indeed. Daniel: are built around at least somewhat the theme of religion. And this... Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: seems to have been a topic that kind of peaked your curiosity because you've written about this, right? The series that I got to see on daily worker placement was your theme, playing at religion, kind of the series of essays about games that are built around religion. And I wonder if it might be helpful just to kind of start the conversation by defining what we're talking about. I mean, Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Daniel: what Alice Connor (she/her): please. Daniel: is a religiously themed What sort of games are we talking about this episode? Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Well, my definition that I proposed is that a religious game is one whose theme is primarily but not exclusively exploring the practice, history, or theology of any religion or spiritual tradition. That may seem kind of obvious, but I feel like I had conversations with people where they're like, oh, how about... Oh, gosh. Now I can't think of what they suggested. I feel like there were some Eric Lange games maybe that were suggested, and I was like... I'm not sure those are religious games. I feel like they have some vibes of religion. I mean, they're certainly made up religions much of the time. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): I guess now I'm saying this out loud, I didn't say in that definition a quote real religion, but then that brings a whole level of judgment on things. Like do we count Scientology Daniel: Mmm. Alice Connor (she/her): as a real religion? having been created by a sci-fi author to make money. Unclear. Kevin: Right, Alice Connor (she/her): Also, Kevin: or Alice Connor (she/her): are Kevin: Cthulhu Alice Connor (she/her): there any board games Kevin: themed. Alice Connor (she/her): about Scientology? Hmm. Daniel: Mm-mm. Alice Connor (she/her): Listeners, Kevin: Right? Alice Connor (she/her): let us know. Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): So Kevin: And Alice Connor (she/her): essentially Kevin: you think it would Alice Connor (she/her): I Kevin: work Alice Connor (she/her): just, Kevin: because you go up levels, right? It would work Alice Connor (she/her): yeah. Kevin: really Alice Connor (she/her): Okay, Kevin: well. Alice Connor (she/her): somebody get on that. Yeah, so I felt like it was important to say, like, cause I had been looking at a bunch of different games. And some of them are definitely more historical and some of them are, I mean, there are definitely games out there that are about theology. There are also ones that are skinned to be about theology but aren't really Daniel: Mm. Alice Connor (she/her): like, I would say, Nicaea from Holland Spiel, phenomenal game. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): Excellent, excellent game. Also side note, run don't walk, Holland Spiel does amazing work. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): That particular one, you are... the players are attempting to essentially, you're attempting to be on the right side of history around the Council of Nicaea in 325. The cards do have theology on them and they do have historical figures from the era. The art is gorgeous. It's very cool. You can read about homo-usus and homo-usus if you are so inclined. But the goal is not to have the actual historical, quote, right answer that the Council of Nicaea created. it's more of a pressure luck kind of betting game. Because you wanna have enough of the cards from the A side or the B side or whatever, that at the end of the game, you have bet correctly based on what other people have done. Which then ends up with a really kind of fascinating theological setup. Like, what did you actually come up with as a group? Daniel: Right, right. What is that saying theologically? Yeah, I mean, if is this Alice Connor (she/her): What is that saying theologically? Yes? Daniel: right, right. You know, Dan Thoreau from the Space Biff Alice Connor (she/her): Yes, Daniel: podcast, he was Alice Connor (she/her): love Daniel: on Alice Connor (she/her): him. Daniel: this podcast earlier. Yeah. And he also talked about Nicaea, Alice Connor (she/her): Great Daniel: which Alice Connor (she/her): game. Daniel: and yeah, and I've never played it, but it's not, I guess, Amabel Holland is, I guess, the design, Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: just some Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, she's amazing. Daniel: shout out to her. But I've never played it, but he spoke so highly of it as well. I want to play it now. I mean, it Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: sounds great. But it does bring up that really interesting question. You know, I mean, yeah, it is. And the impression I got from Dan is that maybe that's kind of the space that Amabel was trying to play with Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: was how much of our theology today is the result of the Holy Spirit coming and descending and Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: working among the gathered community of believers? And how much of it is? Yeah, majority wins. Alice Connor (she/her): Majority rule Daniel: Or, Alice Connor (she/her): or like who Daniel: and, Alice Connor (she/her): bet on what and Daniel: yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): one and do they regret Daniel: yeah. Kevin: Power Alice Connor (she/her): it? Kevin: struggles. Daniel: Right, right, yeah, yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): Like I needed to be for various reasons on the right side of this, and so I chose this, and I don't like it. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, practical Alice Connor (she/her): The Daniel: considerations Alice Connor (she/her): practical levels Daniel: and Alice Connor (she/her): of that, yeah. Daniel: expediency. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: Kevin, you feel like, are you, you look to me like you were trying to say something there a second ago. Any thoughts on this? On. Kevin: No, except that I want to play it and it is... It sounds really cool. And Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: I was Alice Connor (she/her): You Kevin: just Daniel: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): guys. Kevin: saying it the other day. You do need three people, so there is a tricky kind of Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Daniel: Okay, Kevin: scaling Daniel: okay, Alice Connor (she/her): I don't Kevin: issue. Alice Connor (she/her): think it works Kevin: You have Alice Connor (she/her): with Kevin: to... Alice Connor (she/her): two. Kevin: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): Well, Daniel: okay. Alice Connor (she/her): there's three of us here. You should just drive to Cincinnati and I have a copy. Kevin: There you go. Daniel: Let's do it. Let's do it. Alice Connor (she/her): That'll be Kevin: Let's Alice Connor (she/her): so Daniel: Can Kevin: go Alice Connor (she/her): convenient. Kevin: for Daniel: we? Kevin: it. But Daniel: Can Kevin: you're saying Daniel: we? Kevin: that the game... Sorry, Daniel. Daniel: No, go ahead, go ahead. Kevin: But... But Alice, you're saying you feel like in Nicaea, the mechanics don't match. Is that what you're implying there? That the theme Alice Connor (she/her): Um... Kevin: is there, but not the mechanics? Because it's press your luck. Alice Connor (she/her): Well, no, so sorry, thank you for that. What I meant, sort of, sort of, but, and like a, it's not an auction, but you are kind of betting on things. Per what we were just talking about, I actually think those mechanics fit well with sort of, again, what I think Amabel might be trying to do with it. But that, no, I would say it is a religious game. I- I also like to categorize food, which if any of my former students listen to this, sorry, I'm bringing it up again. I have a very expansive understanding of what makes something a sandwich. So listeners, please prepare to be horrified. I do think a burrito is a sandwich. Daniel: Nice, Alice Connor (she/her): Huh? Daniel: nice. What, Alice Connor (she/her): Anyway, my Kevin: I can Alice Connor (she/her): point Kevin: see Daniel: how Alice Connor (she/her): is, Kevin: it. Daniel: so? Yeah, yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): I Daniel: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): say that to say, if you think about like the Target logo, sort of bullseye situation. There's stuff in the middle that is very clearly a sandwich, right? I think there's games that are very clearly games about religion. And then there are other games that are maybe they kind of maybe a little bit less so still very much about religion, but kind of takes on some other aspects. And then eventually you get things way on the outside where it's like it's got a skin of religion, but isn't really. And you're going to ask me what an example of that is. the top of my head. Daniel: Maybe Kevin: Well, Daniel: we Kevin: one Daniel: might Kevin: I Daniel: get Kevin: thought Daniel: some. Kevin: of was that Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, go for it. Daniel: Go ahead, Kevin. Kevin: the sellers of Catan got a Mormon, Alice Connor (she/her): Yes. Kevin: right? It's called the Sellers of Zarahimla. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: I don't know if I'm saying that right. Daniel: Yeah, Dan Kevin: So Daniel: Tethro Kevin: that's Daniel: is talking Kevin: one where Daniel: about Kevin: it's Daniel: this. Kevin: really not a religious game beyond just the words. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, there's another one that's like a sort of Christian themed one. It's a similar kind of thing. It's it really is just Settlers of Catan with some religious stuff thrown at it. And it's like, is that. Daniel: So a couple of things related to that. Number one, before I let it pass, my favorite quote of the episode so far is, I have a very expansive understanding of what makes for a sandwich. That's a fantastic Alice Connor (she/her): Yes. Well, good. Daniel: quote. And I thank you for putting that just out into existence, Alice. I love that. And Alice Connor (she/her): What Kevin: Yes. Alice Connor (she/her): I do. Daniel: the second thing is, it makes me wonder so if there are these mechanisms that don't necessarily seem to. lend themselves to match with a religious thing. It makes me wonder, are there mechanisms that are especially well suited Alice Connor (she/her): Mm. Daniel: for a religious themed game and what would they Alice Connor (she/her): Sure, Daniel: be? Alice Connor (she/her): well, I guess it depends on how cynical you are. Daniel: Right? I think you're in if I think we're open to anything on this on this podcast. We're Alice Connor (she/her): Right, for Daniel: good. Alice Connor (she/her): sure. I mean, we were just talking about the idea of Scientology and sort of, right, like going up levels. You could totally see tech tracks. You could totally see... Like, I really enjoy playing Sulcan, Sulcan Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): the Mayan Calendar. I Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): would say that is a religious-themed game, though it is also culturally appropriative, which is a whole perhaps Daniel: Mm Alice Connor (she/her): other Daniel: hmm. Right, right. Alice Connor (she/her): a lot of things and it has, among other things, religious temples that you can kind of move up in terms of your, presumably your relationship with the gods. So I could see mechanisms like that working. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): But there's, we, I love games with interesting mechanics. And as I was saying, I like games that are complex and make my brain hurt a little bit. But I also really like games that aren't necessarily super complicated, but give you a vibe. I love Daniel: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): games Kevin: Yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): about feelings. Kevin: yes. Alice Connor (she/her): Now, and I'm gonna give you an example of that is not religious, but I think is one of the most transformative games I have ever played. And I am hoping to, I'm gonna be interviewing the designer. I forgot his last name is Cesar. The game is called, I Guess This Is It. It's an 18, Daniel: Oh. Alice Connor (she/her): it's from Button Shy. It's an 18 card role playing game for two people where their relationship is ending. For whatever Daniel: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): reason. Now it's a role playing game. So you set it up at the beginning. You choose together who you're going to be as one of you dying, as one of you just moving away, are you on a foreign planet? And something happens. I don't know. Uh, it can be, it can literally be anything cause it's a role playing game, but it's card based and you have this little sort of setup of cards on the table and you, you play a card. and you talk to the other person about the theme of that card and how it relates to the relationship you've created. And essentially when you run out of cards, the person who is leaving says, I'm sorry, I have to go, goodbye. And they get up Daniel: Mmm. Alice Connor (she/her): and leave the room, possibly the building. Daniel: Whoa. Alice Connor (she/her): It is really powerful. Like, I've watched it played Daniel: That sounds Alice Connor (she/her): several Daniel: heartbreaking. Alice Connor (she/her): times, I've played it multiple times. It is so heartbreaking. It really Daniel: Wow. Alice Connor (she/her): is. I even played it once with a close friend who was in fact leaving. And we decided to play ourselves and wow, that was a lot, Daniel: Wow. Alice Connor (she/her): a lot of tears. That game is surprisingly cathartic. It's just a game. And I have so many games about feelings. I realize this sounds like we're kind of off topic here, but like for me, how do I want to say this? There's games about religion, which to transfer it to sort of board game speak would seem to be about mechanics, right? It's like, who are the gods here? How do you worship them? What does it mean to be part of this religion? Right. The three of us know that's not all religion is, right? It's not Daniel: Right, Alice Connor (she/her): just Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: right. Alice Connor (she/her): the surface level stuff. Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): Um, But then there's that level of what is the actual connection? Like Daniel: Yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): why Daniel: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): would we play a game about, I have no interest in playing Settlers of Canaan because I'd rather just play Catan. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): I don't need it to have a religious skin on it. Daniel: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): But I would love to play a game that's about the emotional and cultural devastation of the actual settling of Canaan by the Israelites. Daniel: Mm. Alice Connor (she/her): That... deals with how hard that is. Or alternatively, of the Jews coming back from Babylon to Israel, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): or for that matter being taken about. Like, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): not, in other words, there's a level of, let's use bits and play cards and burn our brains, and I'm so into that, and we'll get to that in a second, probably, but like, yes, absolutely. But there's also stuff that's about what... How am I being changed? How am I being transformed? Which is what religion is about? Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Right? Daniel: Independent of what the Alice Connor (she/her): Precisely. Daniel: surface theme may be on a game. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm, Daniel: I love Alice Connor (she/her): mm-hmm, Daniel: that. Alice Connor (she/her): yeah. Daniel: And that certainly just is such a great articulation of, I think, one of the underpinnings of what we tried to explore in the show, though with varying levels of success, but this idea that... really kind of any experience of play and gathering around the table and sharing in a game has religious and spiritual implications and Alice Connor (she/her): Absolutely. Daniel: you know and yeah. Oh that's great. Kevin: But I've Daniel: I Kevin: never Daniel: love Alice Connor (she/her): Well, Daniel: that. Alice Connor (she/her): and Kevin: thought Alice Connor (she/her): in. Kevin: about how does this game change me? That's such a profound question. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Kevin: Sorry, Alice Connor (she/her): well, how Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): often does Kevin: Alice. Alice Connor (she/her): a game change you? Like that, Kevin: Not often, but Alice Connor (she/her): yeah, Kevin: they can, they can. Alice Connor (she/her): they can. No, they absolutely can. My eldest and I are playing, holding on the, what is the subtitle Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): of holding on? The life of Billy Care. Something, something Billy Care from Hub Games. Absolutely recommended. There's a couple of problems with the rule book, but it's about helping a guy die well. Daniel: Mm, mm. Alice Connor (she/her): It's a cooperative, if you think about like pandemic or something like that, it's a co-op where you are needing to provide him hospice care and keep him alive for a while so that you can help him process his four biggest regrets. Daniel: Hmm Alice Connor (she/her): It is beautifully made and very difficult to succeed. He dies a lot. And the designer, it's not this festing, I was looking up a rules clarification and the number of times people say things like, well, we're trying to keep him from dying. And he came on there and said, he's going to die. Daniel: Wow, yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): That's Daniel: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): how this game works. He will die. So Kevin: Side Alice Connor (she/her): what are Daniel: Uhhh... Kevin: note, Alice Connor (she/her): you doing Kevin: so Alice Connor (she/her): in the Kevin: will Alice Connor (she/her): meantime? Kevin: you. Right? Daniel: Right, right, right. Alice Connor (she/her): Yes, precisely. Daniel: I mean, that itself, yeah, that's so good. Ultimately, the point isn't to stave off death forever because Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-mm. Daniel: it's not possible, but how do we die well? Kevin: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: How do we approach it well? Yeah, wow. Kevin: And- Alice Connor (she/her): So Kevin: and- Alice Connor (she/her): according to my definition, that would not be a religious game, Daniel: Right, Alice Connor (she/her): but it kind Daniel: right, Alice Connor (she/her): of is. Daniel: right. Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it's dealing with the theme that religion is interested in. Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kevin: I see what Alice Connor (she/her): Now Kevin: you're going. Alice Connor (she/her): I did, I had that one sentence definition, but I also set up a handful of other benchmarks just to suggest what makes it a good game, or what makes it, yeah, what makes it a good religious game. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. What are some of those benchmarks? Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: What makes for a good religious game? Alice Connor (she/her): Well, conveniently you emailed them all to me as a reminder. So thank you for Daniel: Sure. Alice Connor (she/her): that. Daniel: Well, Alice Connor (she/her): Am I looking Daniel: you Alice Connor (she/her): at Daniel: wrote Alice Connor (she/her): my email Daniel: them. Alice Connor (she/her): right Daniel: I Alice Connor (she/her): now? Daniel: just put them together. Alice Connor (she/her): Yes, I am. Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): I know. I would have had to go find them. I mean, I think the first one that I mentioned in my first article is that it's a good religious game if it succeeds at what it's trying to do. This is something that my theater professor back in the day said when we were writing reviews was don't worry about whether you like it or not yet. What is the thing you're... consuming, what is it trying to do? And is it succeeding? Daniel: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): Is it doing it well? Um, so, you know, it, I posted one about a Bible trivia game and like, it was clearly trying to be an evangelism tool Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): and it did not do it well. Uh, it was just bad. It was just a bad game, uh, among other things that had inaccurate information, but also just not good. Uh, and it's not, people don't get converted by that kind of thing. Like if that's your goal. That Daniel: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): doesn't work. That's not it. So that made it flat out just a bad game straight up. But something like, something like a game for good Christians, which is basically apples to apples, but with the Bible. It's delightful. Which is one of my later ones is a joyous, but what is it trying to do? It's trying to, I think it's trying to do some increase in Bible knowledge. But it's also trying to be goofy and kind of, not exactly throw shade, because it clearly loves the Bible, right? It's trying to be an enjoyable, easy to pick up game about kind of the ridiculous stuff that's in our scripture. And it works. Daniel: Right, right, Alice Connor (she/her): It does it. Daniel: right. Alice Connor (she/her): I think another benchmark is that... that if it's a good game, it explores whatever its theme is complexly and appropriately for the weight. So I wrote an article about the game Holy from Floodgate, which is a gorgeous game, so pretty. And I interviewed a friend about that one, because it's got some possible cultural appropriation elements there, which just happens a lot with religious games Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): that are designed by white people. But it's not a super heavy game. It's really an abstract in a lot of ways. And so while it does sort of take a skin from Hinduism, that is the color festival of throwing color on people, it explores that, I think, in a way that is appropriate for the weight of the game, right? If it had been trying to be a whole lot more complicated, it wouldn't have worked. Does that make sense? Daniel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. And then I said it needs to be joyous. I mean, for a game to be good, you got to want to play it, right? Daniel: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): What is fun is a whole other question, but Daniel: Kind of the point. Yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): is it Daniel: yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): fun? Daniel: yeah. Yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): Did you enjoy doing it? Like, Daniel: yeah. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): that's the thing. And the last one I suggested as an option is that specifically for religious games, is it maybe like, as a bonus point, I guess, does the game exhort the players to a higher good? or does it bring them some comfort somehow? Because in a lot Daniel: And Alice Connor (she/her): of ways Daniel: either Alice Connor (she/her): that's, Daniel: one of those Alice Connor (she/her): yeah, Daniel: is a Alice Connor (she/her): I would Daniel: good Alice Connor (she/her): think so. Daniel: thing. Yeah, yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, either or both, yeah. And so that, Daniel: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): I mean, that actually kind of begs the question I would love to ask you guys. I don't know if you're prepared for that, but, Daniel: Go for it. Alice Connor (she/her): have you played a game, whether or not it was, like on the surface, a religious game, have you played a game before that did bring you comfort or that exhorted you to a higher good? Daniel: Mmm. I got a couple. I could jump in. Are you okay, Kevin, if I jump in? What do you Kevin: No, Daniel: think? Kevin: go for it, because I'm Daniel: I Kevin: mulling. Daniel: mean. I mean, the comfort one is not, and neither of these examples are religious theme. I have to admit, I've not played a lot of explicitly religious theme games. It was hard for me to come up with a list at the end, but I've got a few. But Alice Connor (she/her): We avoid them, don't we? Yeah. Daniel: we do, we do. But the, I mean, the first one is kind of a cop out but it's that. I hate to say it, but I mean, well, no, I hate to say it. It's just not a good answer. One of the reasons I play board games is just, I find the process itself comforting. You know, Alice Connor (she/her): Mm. Daniel: I just, I find that process comforting. Even Alice Connor (she/her): Sure. Daniel: if it's a solo game, you know, at the end of the day, just I think we were talking about that, I forget whether it's before, on air or after air, but after you went online, but just. Just that, just, you know, the tactile nature of it, just this, Alice Connor (she/her): Mmm. Daniel: there's something very grounding about playing a board game, right? You know, just where you, you know, I'm dealing with physical stuff. I'm not looking at my screen anymore, you know, Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: and I'm existing in this real physical world and I'm moving things around this board. And I just, I find, Alice Connor (she/her): Incarnational. Daniel: incarnational, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: look at, look at you. You, you, that's, that's so good. Kevin: And I would add, I think there's a sense of healthy control, maybe, that, Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm. Kevin: you know, in the real world, there's all these things I can't control. But for this brief time, all I need to worry about is, you know, trying to beat my last score and rolling these dice. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: So it's a little catharsis of a sense of control and randomness, but it's very much, it's more limited than... you know, trying to go to the grocery store and you have gum on your shoe, etc. Daniel: It's, and it's not randomness that's going to destroy Kevin: Yeah, and the randomness at the end of the day Daniel: your Kevin: is Daniel: world Kevin: just a game Daniel: or anything. Kevin: and you Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: get to put it in Daniel: yeah, Kevin: a box and put it away. So Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: it's like the play Daniel: yeah. Kevin: has ended and or you know, the romcom ended and you're done. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: There's a sense Daniel: yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: of closure to it versus Daniel: yeah. Kevin: our lives just keep going. So there's kind of an ongoing, Alice Connor (she/her): They do. Kevin: you know, sense of control. Daniel: The other, Kevin: It's all right. Daniel: that's, Kevin: Just you inspired me. Got me thinking Daniel: no that's Kevin: because Daniel: good, Kevin: it Daniel: no thank Kevin: is Daniel: you. Kevin: a great question. How is the process of playing a game comforting? Daniel: The one, the other thing that came to mind, thinking about exhorting to a higher good, it's a mechanism I've mentioned before on this podcast, on the show. I don't know if... I don't know if this mechanism originated with Jamie Stegmeier, but I've seen it in a couple of his games in the between two cities and between two castles of King Ludwig, but it's this idea where your score is the lowest score that you build with your neighbor to your right or your left. And Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: I have been fascinated by that mechanism because... just because what it means, you know, the practical Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: implications of that is I'm not gonna win unless I try my darndest to help my neighbor win, you know? And I Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: love that. I just think that, Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: you know, I love that mechanism. Like I'm not gonna fulfill whatever I'm working toward unless I'm helping my neighbor try to fulfill what they're working toward as well. And I just think that's Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: a really a cool mechanism. I Alice Connor (she/her): It's Daniel: don't know. Alice Connor (she/her): a good mechanism. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin. I jumped in there. Did you have some more thoughts on games that have comforted you or exhorted you? Kevin: You know, I'm trying to think of something. During pandemic, one of my kids and I really got into gloom haven and so Alice Connor (she/her): Mm. Kevin: it was more of a distraction, but it was really nice to be able to, when we were all hunkered down thinking we were going to die at some point, die a terrible death, and some people did sadly, but trying Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: to stay safe and not knowing what to do, like playing Gloomhaven a lot. I mean, we played the whole campaign in like three months. Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm Kevin: We were just punching Alice Connor (she/her): amazing Kevin: our clock. So I guess that in the sense of it gave me a distraction and something that was fun to do with somebody else. So that I'll always remember that. Pandemic season one, I think Alice Connor (she/her): Mmm. Kevin: is one that I would list. because it's the kind of game where at some point you're going to remember these are real cities. And Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: these are real places, like as cities start dying. You, Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: I don't know, for me you have a sense of global threat and Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: wanting to save the world. And you're doing it together. And that was just really neat. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Kevin: And there aren't very Alice Connor (she/her): yeah. Kevin: many games that have that reminder of this is, this is kind of real in a weird way. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: How about Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Kevin: you, Alice Connor (she/her): I Kevin: Alice? Alice Connor (she/her): feel that. Well, I adore the game A Gentle Rain. Daniel: Mm-mm. Alice Connor (she/her): Kevin Wilson, I think, is the designer. It is out of print. I see the rumor on Board Game Geek that it is being reprinted by a new publisher at some point this year, which is wild and amazing news. It's this tiny, tiny little box game. The first rule is take a deep breath and relax. Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: Hmm Alice Connor (she/her): And the theme of it is that it's a co-op, it's co-op tile laying game that whoever's around the table and you can play it solo, you lay these little tiles with half flowers on them of a pond, you have gone to this pond, this lake with your friends to see some special flowers bloom. And just the basic mechanic is you place the tiles and when like sort of domino style matching the sides. And when you have... got four together, the corners of the tiles are rounded off, concave rounded off, so that when you put the tiles together, there's a hole. When they're all matched, you put a little wooden flower that matches one of those in the hole, and your goal is to try to get all those wooden flowers on the board. It's very straightforward, simple, but deceptively so. It's actually quite hard, but it is so meditative, and I have introduced that game to so many people. and then had to say, I'm so sorry you can't get it. It's not available, which Kevin: Mm. Alice Connor (she/her): is a bummer. It is very much a comfort game. It is one that we played after our student died in our campus ministry. It is one that people would come in and play three or four rounds of just having had a hard day. Just, it's quick, it's beautiful, it's soothing. It's just a wild game. And it's not religious at all. Like, not even close. It's just flowers in a pond. And like at the end it says, you know, if you succeeded in getting all the flowers in, you know, congratulations, you saw them all bloom. And if you didn't, you can always come back to the lake. It's Daniel: Hmm Alice Connor (she/her): so beautiful. Kevin: Feels very Alice Connor (she/her): And Kevin: zen. Alice Connor (she/her): it brings me such calm and such delight. Yeah. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): So. Yeah. And I mean, I have a handful of things like that. Daniel: That's a great one. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: I have a friend who adores that game as well. And I, as you say, it's out of print. Knowing her love for it, I have been trying to find it too and can't, but it sounds, I've heard such wonderful things about a gentle brain. Yeah, yeah. That's. Alice Connor (she/her): Yes, it's well when it gets reprinted run don't walk. It's amazing Daniel: Cool, Kevin: Thanks for watching! Daniel: cool. Kevin: That's awesome. Alice Connor (she/her): I'm gonna buy like 10 copies, because Kevin: So it seems. Alice Connor (she/her): I should have bought multiple Daniel: Cool, Alice Connor (she/her): ones when Daniel: cool. Alice Connor (she/her): it came out. Kevin: It seems like part of what we're suggesting is things that help us be authentically human Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm. Kevin: are religious, which is true. I mean, religion Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm. Kevin: does touch on the human condition, and religion hopefully is making us more human that God, and from a Christian point of view, Jesus, God, the Trinity, makes us more fully human. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kevin: So games that help us think through that are going to have a at least indirect connection to religion. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. I think that the problem is that so many, I mean, so the, the idea of our religious games good was brought to me by, uh, David Weiss, who's the managing editor of daily worker placement. Um, cause we had been sort of brainstorming, like I could, I want to write about this. That's an interesting topic, but like, what is the question? And that was sort of his question is because, you know, so often I think all of us can look at games that have a religious theme and go, really? Like why, why honestly, Why are Christians like this? Why Daniel: Ha Alice Connor (she/her): do Daniel: ha Alice Connor (she/her): we Daniel: ha. Alice Connor (she/her): have to put Jesus into everything? Like, can we not just play a game about saying goodbye and have that be transformative? Why does it have to have Jesus in it? Well, just FYI, I guess this is it, does not have Jesus in it, unless I guess you play it that way. Like, why do we feel the need to, like, I feel that way about so much Christian media. Like, Christian movies are always, they're so sanitized. They're either a bunch of white people in brown face wearing robes in the desert, or they're just so like, there's no swearing and everything turns out well in the end and like everybody's just so nice and it's gross. That's not how the world is. I need, I want movies that like, listen, everything everywhere all at once. It's not a religious movie, but holy cow, I cried so much watching that movie. It's a Daniel: Yep, Alice Connor (she/her): movie about Daniel: yep. Alice Connor (she/her): a mother and a daughter. working on their relationship and tearing the world apart. It's Daniel: Yup, Alice Connor (she/her): gorgeous. Daniel: yup, Alice Connor (she/her): And it has Daniel: yup. Alice Connor (she/her): meant more to me than almost any movie that has had Jesus in it. Like, Daniel: It's, Alice Connor (she/her): it's like we have Daniel: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): to handle it with kid gloves or something. And I don't, I don't get, so my point being that David asked me that David's Jewish. And he was like. Are there any good ones? Basically, like, and what makes them good, which hence those benchmarks that I was trying to come up with. You asked in your email about Jerusalem and Odomini. I haven't played Kevin: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): it. It's got a lot of buzz. I think because people like the designer maybe. It's like, I can't speak to that. I did read the SpaceBiff article about it. I thought it was really funny that perhaps intentionally part of the theme is how close can you get to Jesus at the Last Supper, which is literally the opposite of some of the stuff that he said. Kevin: Right, right. Alice Connor (she/her): So I kind of enjoy that as a sarcasm kind of moment, but also like. I forgot his name all of a sudden, SpaceBiff. Dan. Kevin: Stand Daniel: Oh, Kevin: Thru. Daniel: Dan Theroux, Dan Theroux. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, I mean that's one of the things he brought up was like how serious is the designer about that? Right? Like is that meant to be kind of sarcastic? Is it meant to be in that Annabel Holland space of like, yeah, you see how these mechanics are a little weird? You get it, right? You get how this is complicated. Is that what the designer is going for with Kevin: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): that? Or are they just saying like, no, this is a cool mechanic and like, yeah, of course you want to jostle to get close to Jesus and taking it very seriously. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): And that changes how the game works, Kevin: I Alice Connor (she/her): both mechanically Kevin: it does. So this Alice Connor (she/her): and Kevin: is Alice Connor (she/her): also Kevin: so. Alice Connor (she/her): as you feel about Kevin: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): it. Yeah, go ahead. Kevin: This is so interesting as it gets into different ways, media can be interpreted and how the interpretation can differ potentially from where the person who wrote it, you know, how it takes on a life of its own, because Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: I've read a bit of her design journal, the person that designed Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: it, and she's Spanish and Catholic. and she's really into sort of that Catholic tradition of mystical, spiritual idea of sitting at the foot of Jesus. So I Alice Connor (she/her): Mmm Kevin: think, and I haven't played it yet, but I think what she was trying to do was that idea of like, who's the famous Spanish nun? Teresa? Alice Connor (she/her): It's a tris. Yeah. Daniel: Avila? Kevin: I think it's Avila, Daniel: Teresa Alice Connor (she/her): Oh yeah. Daniel: of Avila? Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: Teresa of Avila, that meditatively you want to sit at the foot of Jesus and be close to Jesus. So Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm Kevin: she was, and this is me reading between the lines, but trying to turn that into a game was how, what can I do to get to be as close to Jesus as Alice Connor (she/her): Right. Kevin: possible. Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm. Kevin: So that's my guess, but. The criticism that Dan is launching is perfectly valid that has Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: a very strange notion compared to Jesus' message of being a servant. Alice Connor (she/her): Right. Kevin: Versus being, you know, but yeah, Mary and Martha, Mary sat at the foot of Jesus. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: So I think that's what she was after, but you have to pay money to get there. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: Or fish Alice Connor (she/her): Right. Kevin: or whatever it was, evidently. Alice Connor (she/her): You have to bring a Daniel: You Kevin: I've Alice Connor (she/her): better Daniel: know. Kevin: seen Alice Connor (she/her): potluck Kevin: it Alice Connor (she/her): dish. Kevin: at- Correct, yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: I saw it in a store and I almost got it. It's not too expensive as these board Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: games go, so I came really close. I think they look very strange on the cover too. They look Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: very menacing. Alice Connor (she/her): They do. Kevin: The art is odd to me, but yeah, that's one that... I think it's her first game as well. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Daniel: You know, a couple of things on that one. One, it reminds me of something that you said, Alice, in your writings, which is that, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this sense Alice Connor (she/her): No, it's Daniel: that Alice Connor (she/her): fine. Daniel: you kind of feel the game is especially good to the degree that it's not trying to convince us of something, but to the degree that it is trying to explore a space. Right? Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: And... Kevin: Yes. Daniel: And that's kind of a little bit of what I hear in your all's discussion of this game, right? To the Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: extent that it is inviting the player to explore a space in thinking about Jesus, you know, that's a positive thing, to the extent that any game is trying to say, well, this is the argument that you have to believe because Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: of my game, that that's maybe makes for a less good game, though as you as you wrote, there are some exceptions to that you thought of as well. Alice Connor (she/her): What were my exceptions Daniel: And then, Alice Connor (she/her): that I wrote about? I don't Daniel: well, you said, Alice Connor (she/her): remember. Daniel: like, for example, no, it's all good. And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to like spring it on you. You talk about the, the underground railroad and train. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, okay. Daniel: Well, both the games are trying Alice Connor (she/her): Yes, Daniel: to convince Alice Connor (she/her): yes, Daniel: us of something, Alice Connor (she/her): that's right. Daniel: but, but rightly so. Right, right. Rightly so Alice Connor (she/her): Yes. Daniel: of, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: of the Alice Connor (she/her): So, Daniel: awfulness Alice Connor (she/her): and again, Daniel: of. Alice Connor (she/her): that maybe, maybe that comes back to that question of what is the game trying to do? Daniel: Right, right, yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): Right, like, so it answers that first. Yeah, Daniel: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): I guess that's, I think that comes from my perspective on so much of Christianity specifically. And that's, that's definitely the space I sit in. And so listeners, if you come from other traditions, I would actually be really interested to hear if this shows up in your tradition as well. Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): that sort of this idea Christians in particular are real big on making more Christians or maybe I should say some Christians are really big on making more Christians and sort of by hook or by crook and that feels in the real world like outside of games that feels gross. I worked on a college campus for 14 years and that's a huge mission field for a lot of folk. They come out to college campuses to try to convince students in all kinds of different ways that what they're doing is wrong and they should become Christian. And to the point that I even thought at one point about taking the cross off the front of our building because it has so much negative and manipulative weight that was not what Jesus Daniel: Mm-hmm, Alice Connor (she/her): was doing. But I Daniel: mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): didn't want, I chose not to do that because I didn't, I wanted, I wanted the cross and the pride flag next to each other. as Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): a symbol. But also I didn't want it to be a bait and switch because that Daniel: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): happens all the time. We were a Christian organization and while we looked a lot different than a lot of other ones and we were entirely radically welcoming to people who were not, did not try to make anybody into anything else, it was important to note that this is a thing. This is Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): where we come from, right? So I think that's, I think there's, I have a lot of resistance to certainly people who do that, but any game that seems to be trying to manipulate me in Kevin: Right, Alice Connor (she/her): a religious Kevin: or Alice Connor (she/her): way Kevin: coerce you. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): or coerce me in a religious way. Now I haven't, I know the end of Train, so I can't play it now, but also there's like one copy, but whatever. I like, I love the idea of the existence of Train Daniel: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): that it does Kevin: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): what it does, right? And it is trying to manipulate you into something. Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): Interestingly, that's its entire point. So like, Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): so there's that exception, right? It's trying to make you see something about the Holocaust that you might not have thought of. And I think that's important work too. So I guess I'm kind of talking myself on two sides of this, right? Daniel: No, no, I did. Alice Connor (she/her): Maybe the religious Kevin: It's a trick. Alice Connor (she/her): themed ones are too, what's the word I want? Surface? They're very obvious Kevin: Yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): when they Kevin: they're Alice Connor (she/her): do Kevin: reductive Alice Connor (she/her): that. Kevin: instead Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: of expansive. Daniel: Mm, mm. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, that's, thank you, that's actually a very good distinction. I want all my games to be expansive. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): I mean, even something Daniel: That Alice Connor (she/her): as simple Daniel: is... Alice Connor (she/her): as a gentle rain, Daniel: That is good. Alice Connor (she/her): it's concise, but it is expansive in the sense of what it offers you. Kevin: There's a new religiously themed game coming out, I think maybe end of this year, Ezra Nehemiah from Garfield Games, and you're mentioning, you know, what's it like to rebuild. I don't know how much the religious theme is overtly present, but you do have, and I love their games, so I think they will, I'm sure it'll be a Euro type Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: building experience and that. fits in well with the sense of rebuilding a city that was destroyed in temple. Alice Connor (she/her): Sure. Yeah. Kevin: And who can Alice Connor (she/her): It's Kevin: do Alice Connor (she/her): funny, Kevin: it most efficiently? Alice Connor (she/her): I saw that, like I post on BGG or something about that. And I was like, really? Ezra Nehemiah, like the two most boring books in the Bible. Daniel: Thanks for watching! Alice Connor (she/her): They build a wall. That's what they do, they build a wall. Kevin: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): It's great. Kevin: That's why they're safe, Alice Connor (she/her): Which is, Kevin: right? Alice Connor (she/her): yeah. I mean, I would be intrigued by that as well. Like I'd love to play it and just see how it goes. I did write an article about Jericho, which is a card game from gosh, a while ago, like 2012 or something. I can't remember exactly when it came out. I got it very cheap when I was getting some other games from somebody in a trade. And I was like, sure, I'm gonna get a $5 card game about the Fall of Jericho, why not? It's very good, Daniel: It's Alice Connor (she/her): it turns Daniel: very Alice Connor (she/her): out. Daniel: good. Alice Connor (she/her): It's definitely a brain burner. And there's some luck involved. And yeah, everybody's trying to build their own. sort of color coded walls of Jericho and knock everybody else's walls down and get points while you do it. And it's wild. It's a wild game about wall building. Like straight up about wall building. and falling down. Daniel: I remember reading that article from you and I was like, everything you write is just a delight to read. But yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): Thank Daniel: I was Alice Connor (she/her): you. Daniel: surprised by the turn that it took. I was starting to read it, I was like, oh, she's not gonna like this game. It's like, oh, she really likes this game. Alice Connor (she/her): Reader, it's Daniel: This Alice Connor (she/her): great! Daniel: is great, this is great, yeah, yeah. Well, that's a good segue into, we wanted to end the episode Alice Connor (she/her): Yes. Daniel: by talking about our, maybe our top three favorite religiously themed games. And do we feel ready to do that, Alice and Kevin? Alice Connor (she/her): Sure, Kevin: I'm ready. Alice Connor (she/her): I'm gonna Kevin: Estoy Alice Connor (she/her): have to Kevin: listo. Alice Connor (she/her): make it up because I don't remember. I don't know. Daniel: We can go to you last, Alice, if that would be Alice Connor (she/her): to Daniel: helpful. Alice Connor (she/her): me last. Yeah, that's probably a good Daniel: If Alice Connor (she/her): choice. Daniel: that would be... And Kevin, you were the one that thoughtless. Do you want to kick it off? Do you have any thoughts? Kevin: Are we doing all three? Are we doing, you may give all three. Daniel: Oh, do you want to like you want to go around Kevin: Or Daniel: to Kevin: one Daniel: the Kevin: at Daniel: circle Kevin: a time. Daniel: like a countdown to the top Alice Connor (she/her): Oh goodness. Daniel: one? Oh my goodness. Alice Connor (she/her): Okay, okay, Kevin: I don't Alice Connor (she/her): okay. Kevin: know if I ranked them. Daniel: Yeah, I didn't rank mine either. I say, how about just, you just Kevin: I... Daniel: want to go with your top three? Kevin: Yeah, okay, so I'll do number three. Alice Connor (she/her): anniversary Kevin: And I'm gonna go with the Freedom the Underground Railroad. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: Hmm Kevin: And because it's a story about history, and I do own it, I've only played it maybe twice. I don't know that it's that great a game mechanically, but it's really neat what it's doing, and it reminds you of the role of religion as well as both... the characters and people, some of them have religious backgrounds, but that idea of liberation. But I also Alice Connor (she/her): Mmm. Kevin: appreciate that there are difficult moral choices in it, that Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: in order to save a group of people, you may have to let one of the slaves get captured. So there's a bit of that. So I appreciate the tough moral choices. And the sense that the slaves just keep coming in and they're right. And so you've got this continual. flood of slaves and what you really want to do is abolish slavery but for now you can't so all you do is save as many as you can. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: So yeah I would go with that. What about you Daniel? Daniel: Oh man, mine is not nearly as good as yours. That's, that's, that's thinking and deep and good. I really struggled to come up with, uh, with, uh, with games of religious things, I just haven't played that many. I, uh, I think, as you were saying earlier, Alice, I, I tend to avoid them if I'm being Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: honest, um, but Kevin: When Daniel: so. Kevin: you clock out, Daniel, you're ready to play a game. You're not clocked out of the religion world. Daniel: That's Alice Connor (she/her): Right? Daniel: right. That's right. That's right. So these are all stretches, but I kind of went with Alice Connor (she/her): Ha ha. Daniel: a broad interpretation of your definition, Alice, just kind of that it deals in some way with religious practice. That's kind of what I applied to all three of these. And so I guess the first one I said was Red Cathedral, which is because you're building Alice Connor (she/her): Okay? Daniel: a church. Alice Connor (she/her): Sure. Daniel: You're building St. Basil's Cathedral in Moscow. And yeah, so your architect's trying to build different parts of a church in Red Cathedral. And it's a very... the ratio to thinkiness and strategy and tactics to box size is quite impressive in this game. It's a very small Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: game in the box, but it has a big footprint both on your table and in terms of the... kind of strategy space and thinking space. And you're trying to build a church. So yeah, I Alice Connor (she/her): Mm. Daniel: like it. That's Alice Connor (she/her): Okay. Daniel: my number three. Alice Connor (she/her): I love it. I love it. I am literally scrolling through the religious themed games that I'm bored of getting Daniel: Oh, it's fine. It's fine. Kevin: Oh. Daniel: No worries. Alice Connor (she/her): geeked right now. So I think what I'm gonna do is, I'm not sure that these are gonna be top three favorites, but I think these are three that I find interesting. How about that? Daniel: Sure, that's great. That's great. Alice Connor (she/her): And worthy of exploration. Daniel: Yep. Alice Connor (she/her): Okay, so I'm gonna start with, not necessarily in order, sorry. Ruining your prompt. I'm Daniel: And Alice Connor (she/her): going Daniel: that's Alice Connor (she/her): to Daniel: fine. Alice Connor (she/her): start with Acts of the Evangelists, Daniel: Hmm Alice Connor (she/her): which I just had on the screen. I think Daniel: Hmm Alice Connor (she/her): it's on the previous screen here. Actually, the Evangelists is a card game. You are going around the ancient Near East and the Mediterranean and collecting cards to build the Bible, basically. You are collecting the stories of... Of course, I can't find it right now. That's fine. You're collecting the stories of eyewitnesses, of like the evangelists, the apostles. And it is a set collection game, basically. Sort of tableau building set collection game. And you're building codices. So once you put things in your codex, it's hard to move them. So then you can take whole pages and put them somewhere else. But it's like, in what order do you put these stories and how to... Daniel: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): I find it really fascinating theologically. Like... how did the groups who wrote the gospels really, how did they do their editing? Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): And there's, I mean, that's a whole realm of theological study is textual criticism and redaction criticism and all that. So Daniel: That's... Alice Connor (she/her): it's really good. It's a good game. It's a very good game. Unfortunately, Daniel: That's. Alice Connor (she/her): my copy, all the cards are sleeved. Thank you, friend Bailey. I am unsleeving them. I hate Daniel: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Alice Connor (she/her): sleeved cards. It's nothing to do with the game. Just cannot stand that. Daniel: I understand, Alice Connor (she/her): Anyway, next. Daniel: I understand. That's a fascinating Kevin: Yeah, I Daniel: one, Kevin: have Daniel: I Kevin: a Daniel: like Kevin: problem Daniel: it. Kevin: with sleep. Well, they don't stack well. You have a stack Alice Connor (she/her): No, Kevin: and then Alice Connor (she/her): they Kevin: they kind of Alice Connor (she/her): slip Kevin: fall Alice Connor (she/her): all over Kevin: over. Alice Connor (she/her): the table! Kevin: I don't get it. I don't Daniel: You Kevin: get Daniel: can't Kevin: it. Daniel: do the shuffle. You can't do the riffle shuffle Alice Connor (she/her): Nope. Daniel: with the Alice Connor (she/her): No, Kevin: And the Daniel: yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): we Kevin: edges Alice Connor (she/her): can't shuffle. Kevin: are sharp so sometimes I feel Alice Connor (she/her): Yep. Kevin: like I'm getting blood drawn Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): Yes. Agreed. Daniel: Kevin, do you have a number two? Number two. Kevin: I am gonna go, I'm not sure which one to put here, I'm gonna go with Sleeping Gods Alice Connor (she/her): Oh, Daniel: Oh Kevin: because, Alice Connor (she/her): okay. Kevin: yeah, there's these different, so I would say it's a religiously themed game but it's kind of in a world of spirits, animism, paganism, Alice Connor (she/her): Huh? Kevin: which is totally fine, it's cool, it's different. So this is a world where Alice Connor (she/her): How Kevin: there Alice Connor (she/her): interesting. Kevin: are these forces and beings and I think the designer is Mormon. And it reminds me of Mormon science fiction, if you've read any. uh what's his name? Brandon Sanderson. It's that type Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm Kevin: of world building with various spirits and I'm not sure how that connects with Mormon culture or religion, but I thoroughly enjoy it. So it's not really a Christian world but it is a religious world. Alice Connor (she/her): Uh-huh, Kevin: Yeah, so sleeping gods. Alice Connor (she/her): uh-huh. Nice. Daniel: Knowing of your love for Sleeping Gods, Kevin, which I've never been able to play, I backed Sleeping Gods 2 on Kickstarter. I'm looking forward to Kevin: So Daniel: getting Kevin: fun. Daniel: that just Alice Connor (she/her): Wow. Daniel: to give it a try. Kevin: Sleeping Daniel: Or Kevin: Guides Alice Connor (she/her): Love that. Kevin: 2, Electric Boogaloo. Daniel: whatever crowdfunding website I'm Alice Connor (she/her): Ha ha Daniel: sure is. Kevin: Right. Daniel: I'm looking forward to the Electric Boogaloo expansion. It would be, Kevin: Yeah, it's gonna be good. Alice Connor (she/her): That'd be great. Daniel: it comes right after the shuffle. Oh. That was, I didn't even mean to do a, that was awful on many levels. Okay. Kevin: hug. Daniel: So my number two, again, I struggle with this. I really just went with really just practices of some sort. And, Biblios, Biblios is a game of monks collecting scrolls. It's Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel: just, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a simple card game. Again, kind of like Red Cathedral, it's a very small box, but allows for a big open space in terms of strategy and tactics. And it's really good. It's a fun, a fun, thinky, quick card game. Biblio, where you are different maybe, I don't know, monasteries, different schools of monastics who are trying to collect the best scrolls. so that you can like Alice Connor (she/her): Hehehehe Daniel: totally, you know, flex on the other monasteries because that's the way of Jesus. Alice Connor (she/her): Yes, absolutely. Daniel: So that's my number two. What's another one from you, Alice? Alice Connor (she/her): I'm going to say Nuns on the Run. It's Daniel: Oh Alice Connor (she/her): an older Daniel: nice. Alice Connor (she/her): game. It's a hidden movement game. The little nun novices are trying to secretly run out onto this massive board and find a key and then go somewhere else to get their secret treasure and then get back to the room without being caught by the mother superior. It's hilarious. Kevin: All Alice Connor (she/her): I Kevin: over. Alice Connor (she/her): love a hidden movement game. I mean, it could be anything else, but I think it's really charming, the little nuns running around trying not to get caught by the religious authority. That seems right. Daniel: That's a great theme. Alice Connor (she/her): It's good, it's good. It's one of those like all against one kind of games. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): Like not alone or something like that. Daniel: heard great things about that game. I haven't tried it, but I would love to someday. Alice Connor (she/her): It's older. Kevin: It's on Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Kevin: Amazon, Alice Connor (she/her): it's older, Kevin: 40 Alice Connor (she/her): I don't Kevin: bucks. Alice Connor (she/her): know. Kevin: It has a Daniel: Oh, OK. Kevin: fun Alice Connor (she/her): There you Kevin: looking Alice Connor (she/her): go. Kevin: cover. Daniel: None's on the run. Cool. That's great. Kevin: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Alice Connor (she/her): Ha ha ha! Daniel: Interestingly enough, also has a sequel, The Electric Boogaloo. No, it doesn't. Kevin: Right? It really Daniel: I just, Kevin: does. Daniel: I just, Alice Connor (she/her): Wild! Kevin: Yes. Alice Connor (she/her): It's weird. Daniel: that's right. Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): Huh. What a coincidence. Kevin: Excellent. Daniel: Alright Kevin, what's the number one for you? Kevin: Number one, I'm going to go with Frostpunk, the board game, because it is just surrounded with difficult moral choices. Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm Kevin: Like, you really don't want the kids to get sick. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: But somebody's got to get sick and for the for the town to survive. So you're just confronted Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: with with. Painful, like, what's the worst outcome? And and the least worst outcome might be you know, all sorts of problems or yeah, it's just, Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Kevin: it's not religious in any way. Well, there is a way you can, there is a religion that can come in, this new religious order that can come in and try to sort of give people hope. But other than that, it's more of just the difficult apocalyptic choices. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Kevin: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): I believe. Kevin: And I still Daniel: It's interesting Kevin: haven't won, Daniel: how... Kevin: so yeah. Daniel: What's that? Kevin: I still haven't beat it. It's Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: like I can't even beat the introductory one. so hard. Daniel: It's interesting how moral, ethical choices. have factored in this conversation about, you know, what makes for a good religious, whether the theme Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: is explicit religion. And it occurs to me throughout this hour, sorry, and then I'll get to my number one, of talking that how we define a religious game largely depends on how we define what's religious, right? I Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: mean, it's that it's, Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: is what's religious something that specifically relates to the Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: outward, you know, practices of of an inherited tradition Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: or it's what's religious. interacting with what is this life all about in Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Daniel: kind of, and the divine in whatever space we're inhabiting, you know, kind of. Alice Connor (she/her): You know, as you say that, I'm reminded of part of this conversation I had last night. I talked about one of my tattoos that says mercy not sacrifice, which I believe is from Joel that could Daniel: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): be from Hosea after we look that up because I can't remember. But Daniel: worse. Alice Connor (she/her): mercy not sacrifice being essentially a theme of most of the prophets. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): God's desire, not that we shouldn't sacrifice ourselves for each other in context. It's a particular religious Daniel: Sure. Alice Connor (she/her): practice and not. Daniel: Right. Alice Connor (she/her): I mean, it was written by Jews. It's not anti-Semitic. It's not anti-Semitic. It's this Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): idea that all the prophets continuously are saying, your festivals mean nothing when you are not caring for each other. Kevin: Hmm Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): That's the sacrifice part, right? Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): I want mercy. How are you living with each other? Daniel: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): Religion, like the practice, the cultic, which Christians have cultic Daniel: Yeah. Alice Connor (she/her): stuff as well. The trappings. are lovely, but they are nothing if you're not caring for each other well. Mercy not sacrifice. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Well said, well said. I love it. Alice Connor (she/her): Wasn't me. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Daniel: Thank you. Well, well, well recapitulated in the, in Alice Connor (she/her): Recapitulate, Daniel: the for, for Alice Connor (she/her): indeed. Daniel: us. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. That's Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Daniel: awesome. Alice Connor (she/her): so what's Daniel: Thank Alice Connor (she/her): your number Daniel: you. Alice Connor (she/her): one, Daniel? Daniel: My number one is, here we go. My number one religiously themed game is, again, just dealing with practice, some religious practice of some sort. Heaven and Ale. A Heaven and Ale Alice Connor (she/her): Okay. Daniel: is a game about monks making beer. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, yeah, love it. Love it. Daniel: And apparently, Alice Connor (she/her): It's a long Daniel: yeah, Alice Connor (she/her): tradition. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: that's a long religious tradition of monks in monasteries making Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm? Daniel: ale and beer. And I love the game Heaven and Ale. It's a great game that combines some of my favorite mechanisms. First of all, I'm always a... I'm always a fool for tile placement games. I love Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm. Daniel: tile placement games. It's a good tile placement game, but it also has the mechanism where you can go as far as you want to around the track, Alice Connor (she/her): Hmm. Daniel: but then everyone gets to catch up with you. And so, you know, you can make this big move, but then it allows others to have other moves. It's, it's, and, my other favorite mechanism is like, one of my other favorite mechanisms is like, you're really not exactly sure who won until you get to the end. because there's Alice Connor (she/her): Mmm Daniel: like this super complicated mathematical formula that you have to apply at the end of the game. Alice Connor (she/her): Oh, you like that? Daniel: I do, Alice Connor (she/her): Interesting. I Daniel: I do, I do, Alice Connor (she/her): don't Daniel: I do, Alice Connor (she/her): like that Daniel: because Alice Connor (she/her): at all. Daniel: yeah, right, you don't like, yeah. Kevin and I have kind of talked about this before, like, Kevin especially likes kind of like more luck-based games because anybody can kind of win at the end, right, based on, you get a good role or whatever. And this kind of simulates the same thing, but in kind of a Euro game, Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, Daniel: because, Kevin: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): sure. Daniel: you know, you apply this mechanism at the end of the game, and the math is so obtuse that you're not exactly sure who's the winner until you do all your algorithms, and then Alice Connor (she/her): Right, Daniel: you figure out who Alice Connor (she/her): right, Daniel: the winner Alice Connor (she/her): right. Daniel: is. And I love that, I love that. So heaven and hell would be Kevin: So Daniel: my number one. Ha ha ha. Kevin: in Alice Connor (she/her): I Kevin: the Alice Connor (she/her): am Kevin: rule Alice Connor (she/her): delighted Kevin: book, does Alice Connor (she/her): for you. Kevin: it prohibit drinking ale playing the game? Because you wouldn't be able to do the math Alice Connor (she/her): Could Kevin: at the Alice Connor (she/her): make Kevin: end. Alice Connor (she/her): it worse. Kevin: You're Daniel: That's true, Kevin: like, Daniel: that's true, unless you Kevin: five Daniel: just ask Google to do it for you. Kevin: plus. Daniel: But yeah, that's right, that's right. So how about Alice Connor (she/her): funny. Daniel: you, Alice? Alice Connor (she/her): So my last one I'm going to say is Zentile Solo, which is also hard to get. It's very expensive from Japan. I backed it on Kickstarter. It's a tiny, tiny little box. They have a Zentile's Basic, which I think is a more of a group game. Zentile Solo is meant as a solo game. It's got sort of a day, like a little strip of wood that is your last 24 hours, and then a bunch of little tiles with feelings, experiences on them. And so it's a meditative tool. It's not really a game. It's yeah, it's on board game geek, though. I have some it's a whole other conversation, but I have some issues with what they consider as a game and what they consider is not a game. Alice is Daniel: Mmm. Alice Connor (she/her): missing. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): Is apparently not a game because you can't win it. But Daniel: Hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): you can't win Zentile Solo and it's on anyway, whatever. Fine. Anyway, it's in time. Zentile Solo, you sit and you contemplate. the last 24 hours, and you Daniel: Mmm. Alice Connor (she/her): take these tiles in your hands and you draw them out randomly and you put them where you experienced them. It's like Daniel: Wow. Alice Connor (she/her): surprise or grief or whatever. And you can do it however you want to. You can put them as close as you want to the timeline to signify like it was really strong or it was maybe kind of distant. You can use the top as sort of experiencing these things in a positive way and underneath as experience them in a negative way. I mean, you do whatever you want to with it. And it kind of acts as like an emotional journal. for your day, there's Daniel: Mmm. Alice Connor (she/her): like, I think 20 tiles. And then it also comes with a really pretty stone. This is along the lines of Gentle Rain and other feeling space games that I enjoy. When you were done, the rules say basically, you just did a really good job. Like you deserve something nice, like this beautiful stone. And so you take this beautiful stone, you hold it in your hand, and then it invites you to put it on the pattern that you've made. On a place when you felt particularly I can't remember the word that they use but particularly good about how you showed up in that moment Daniel: Wow, Alice Connor (she/her): I know Daniel: that sounds amazing. I want that game. Alice Connor (she/her): It's so delightful It's like you'd have to spend like 70 bucks to get it from Japan because the game itself isn't that expensive But shipping is stupid for such a tiny box Daniel: gotta Alice Connor (she/her): So Daniel: look Alice Connor (she/her): if Daniel: that Alice Connor (she/her): you ever Daniel: up. Alice Connor (she/her): see it anywhere Totally recommended. It's a little tiny black box. Zen tiles solo Love Daniel: That Alice Connor (she/her): it Daniel: sounds amazing. Thank you. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm-hmm. Daniel: Have you heard about Kevin? Alice Connor (she/her): Well... Kevin: No, it sounds like something in a therapist's office. Alice Connor (she/her): Doesn't it? Daniel: Mm-hmm, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Alice Connor (she/her): I'm actually sitting here wondering where my copy is. Daniel: Mm, mm. Alice Connor (she/her): Mm. Ha ha. Kevin: zentiles.net Oh, and they're cool little stones. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah, all the stones are unique too. Kevin: Wow. That's Daniel: Thank you. Alice Connor (she/her): Yeah. Kevin: awesome. I have Daniel: That's Kevin: to Daniel: a Kevin: exploit Daniel: great Kevin: a Daniel: recommendation. Kevin: little Alice Connor (she/her): You're Kevin: more. Alice Connor (she/her): welcome. Daniel: I like Kevin: Geez, Daniel: it. All Kevin: that's a good one. Masterful. Daniel: right. Kevin: Well, Alice Connor (she/her): I have a whole Kevin: if... Alice Connor (she/her): list of games I can recommend to everybody for all the things. Kevin: Mmm. Daniel: I love it. Kevin: Well, how can people find you, Alice? Alice Connor (she/her): How can people find me? Probably just alisconner.com. That's Kevin: Okay? Alice Connor (she/her): my writing website, I think, or you can find me on Instagram. That's my primary social media is Pastor Alice. Yeah, and I do post about games on my Instagram, but not nearly as, I mean, the daily work replacement is a good place. I mean, for my stuff, but also for David and Taylor and Bailey and all the others, we have a nice table of folks who do some interesting stuff. So dailyworkerplacement.com. Daniel: And Table Talk Kevin: Awesome. Daniel: is your podcast. Alice Connor (she/her): Table Talk is the podcast. You can't find it by searching Table Talk though, unfortunately we're in the process of trying to fix that because it's on the daily work replacements podcast feed. So look up daily work replacement and then you'll find me and Taylor. Nine whole podcasts. Daniel: Awesome, Alice Connor (she/her): Amazing. Daniel: awesome, wonderful. Well... Kevin: And coming up for us Daniel, next episode. Daniel: Oh, you know what, Kevin? I realized I forgot to... I forgot to look into that. What is coming up for us? Kevin: That's what I'm Daniel: I Kevin: looking Daniel: apologize. Kevin: at. Daniel: I'm being a bad co-host. Kevin: No, no, you're being an awesome co-host because Alice Connor (she/her): You're Kevin: I Alice Connor (she/her): like Kevin: asked Alice Connor (she/her): episode Kevin: a question Alice Connor (she/her): 500 extravaganza. Kevin: such. Daniel: Hahaha Kevin: A clip show. Alice Connor (she/her): Hahaha Daniel: Well, our listeners will just have to tune in to find out. Kevin: Yes, yes. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Excellent. And I'll just probably Daniel: Um. Kevin: cut this out of the podcast. Daniel: Yeah, I apologize for not being better Kevin: No, Daniel: prepared on that, Kevin: no. Daniel: Kevin. Kevin: I was Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: looking as well. Daniel: I forgot to do that. Kevin: And people can find us at boardgamefaith.com and they can listen to the podcast. And we're on YouTube as well. And we will be announcing the results of our contest soon. Yep. Daniel: Well, and Alice, Kevin: Anything Daniel: thank you Kevin: else? Daniel: so much for being with us. Alice Connor (she/her): You're so welcome. Daniel: It was a delight to get to have you on the show. And yeah, we really encourage our listeners to check out Alice's wonderful reflections and content in the various spaces that they occupy in the world of books and podcasts and blogs. And we're very grateful and honored to have you on the show today. And yeah, thanks for... Thanks for being with us. Alice Connor (she/her): Thank you for having me, it was lovely. Daniel: And Kevin, thank you. And you're awesome too, man. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in or watching us on YouTube. We're grateful for all of you. Kevin: That's right. Goodbye, everybody. Daniel: Bye bye.