Daniel (00:03.987) Some people say that board games can be a form of art, that they can help us to see ourselves more clearly or reflect more fully on life's meaning. And if that's true, could board games help us to think more fully about the hard stuff of life? Not just fun and adventure, but also grief or loneliness or death? We are exploring death in gaming. On this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly podcast exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Daniel (01:03.167) Hello and welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. It is so good to have you here. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:10.182) And my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel (01:12.451) And we are grateful that you have decided to punch that button or click on that link and spend a little bit of your day with us. Thank you so much. And it is, it is. We are, you, the dear listeners and viewers, make it Thanksgiving Day every day. I'm going to go eat some turkey and stuffing right after this, in fact. Yeah, and pumpkin pie. Kevin (01:22.674) It's always Thanksgiving Day here at Board Game Faith. We're thankful. Kevin (01:32.267) Yes. every day. Daniel (01:41.599) because of our viewers and listeners. Not really, but yeah. Yeah. Kevin (01:44.554) Daniel's going to put on 40 pounds recording over the next year. Thank you, listeners. Daniel (01:51.007) Kevin, it's good to see you as always. How are you doing? Kevin (01:54.078) I'm good, thanks. I'm good. How are you? Daniel (01:55.671) Good, good, yeah, doing fine. Yeah. What are you doing? I'm so excited about this. I have no idea, but I can sense the excitement. Kevin (01:58.846) Oh, guess what I'm going to do Monday. Guess what I'm going to do Monday. I am going to do a demo of the Apple vision pro. I've got to return something to the Apple store. And so I looked and I could I booked an appointment. I get a 30 minute session. I get to try. Yeah, you can book a demo. You get like 20, 30 minutes. Yeah, it's you just go online. Yes, because you can go on YouTube and you can kind of see basically the little training they're going to walk you through, like. Watching a movie and getting a screen up like Daniel (02:08.865) No. Daniel (02:15.906) You can book a demo. That's amazing. Do you know already what you're gonna do? Kevin (02:35.298) browsing the web, they'll kind of show you some basic stuff. So yeah, I kind of know. Yeah, spatial computing. I will, I will. Daniel (02:38.527) Okay, that's awesome. Please tell us all about it. Do they have podcasts on the, what is it called? Apple goggles, goggles pro, Apple, Apple. Apple vision pro. I think we should do like a virtual board game faith podcast on it where we could like be sitting in like a, in a. Kevin (02:52.29) Tim Cook is going to kill you. Apple Vision Pro. I'm sure there are tech podcasts about it. This is new thing. Kevin (03:05.131) I'm doing it right now. Daniel (03:07.471) That's perfect, like in a board game library, and we could be wearing like tweed jackets with leather elbows, and our backs could be against the camera, but then when people walk in, we would turn around and we'd say, Oh, hello, we didn't see you. And then we just start talking about, and it would be in virtual 3D. I think that would be, that would be great. Kevin (03:10.35) Thanks for watching! Kevin (03:14.924) Uh-huh. Kevin (03:25.694) Hehe Kevin (03:31.574) It'd be so great. Or we could go there and not have them on and just claim that we have the invisible model and then just actually weird sort of just like piling the wall, you know, with your hands, because you're fighting a dinosaur and you insist that you actually have an invisible pair of AppleVision Pros on. Daniel (03:40.443) Oh, that would be... Daniel (03:50.287) We should do that's probably the next the next step in Apple Vision Pro. Yeah. Well, please let us know about it on the next show. That sounds exciting. Yeah. Cool. Kevin (03:52.396) Yeah. Kevin (03:57.13) Yeah, yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited. Anyway. Well, today we need a little excitement because we got a heavy hitter on our on this topic. Yes. Daniel (04:05.651) We do. It's a heavy subject. Yeah. So do you have a fun way to kind of lighten the mood a little bit before we begin? Kevin (04:15.758) Funny you should say that, Daniel. Funny you should say that. There's a word that I have gotten to think about recently, and that word is compelling. Daniel (04:17.895) Yeah? Daniel (04:23.572) Hmm. Daniel (04:33.048) What a good word. Kevin (04:34.91) It's a good word because if it's something that if you do it do if you do something and someone says that was compelling That is a really nice affirmation Daniel (04:48.751) It's very, it is very, very affirming. Yeah. Because it demonstrates that they found what you said to be something that engages with them, that motivates them, that maybe even inspires them. In other words, like they didn't just let your words wash over them and had no effect on them. They listened to you and that'd have an effect on them. Is that right? Was that what you'd say? Kevin (04:51.622) Why is it nice? Kevin (05:12.834) Yes. Kevin (05:17.85) Yes. Yeah, you're right that that's kind of what the word means in some ways. I mean, a definition from the Cambridge online etymology, and etymology is the study of words that may or may not be about insects. So an online etymological dictionary, a drive or urge irresistible. Daniel (05:38.358) Right. Right, right. Kevin (05:44.118) by physical or moral force. So it's kind of, you've made something that's irresistible, right? Daniel (05:46.667) Hmm. Irresistible. That's a good word for it. Yeah. I like it. Kevin (05:51.602) I also think it's a great word because it has such nice sounds. Com-pel. Like it has the O draws out, the L is soft, and then the M and the P and the C are like harsh. So you kind of get a little bit of every, you know, it has just a great, yeah, compelling. So compelling, want to guess where it comes from? Daniel (05:56.567) Compel. Daniel (06:04.159) Hell, yeah, yeah. I like it, it may be one of my new favorite words. Daniel (06:17.239) Where does it come from? So is com meaning like with like the Latin like with com. No, no, no. Pal, pal is from the Sanskrit word meaning Velcro. Kevin (06:20.234) Yes, that's from Latin. Excellent. What is, what is awake forest grad here? Yes. Pell, you're not going to know unless you just are randomly into dictionaries. hell. Kevin (06:47.21) Not bad, not bad. Yeah, it's a Proto-Indo-European root word, P-E-L, PEL, means to thrust, strike, or drive. Now it forms the part of many words. Can you guess some of these words? This is the game. Daniel (06:49.671) No, I don't know what Pell means, no. What does it mean? Okay, okay. Daniel (07:01.751) Okay. Daniel (07:08.151) Thrust striker drive. Propeller! Ha ha ha! Uh. Kevin (07:11.368) Propeller! Good! Ding ding ding! Alright. Kevin (07:17.438) Or propel, yeah, propeller. Daniel (07:20.063) Propel, yeah. Impale. Kevin (07:22.972) Mmm. Kevin (07:26.27) It's not on my list. It may be. We'll put a little asterisk. We'll give you 1.5 point. We'll give you 0.5 for that. It probably does because you're being you're being thrust upon impaled. Yeah. Impel. I think impel to impel something so impaled is probably the version of impel. Yes. I'm going to give you full points. Two points. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (07:31.367) Okay, okay, okay. Daniel (07:36.187) Oh my, oh this is great. I wish I was a. Daniel (07:42.473) Um... With Pelican? Daniel (07:50.868) Okay. Whoa, I don't deserve such grace, but thank you. Surely not Pelican. Is Pelican related to it somehow? Unclear. Okay. Yes. Kevin (07:57.405) Unclear, unclear. Kevin (08:01.986) But strangely, you're not far that the word pelt. Daniel (08:09.387) felt interesting. Kevin (08:09.866) Because can you guess why how do we get a pelt? Daniel (08:16.352) Um... Kevin (08:16.642) Pelt is the skin of an animal. Daniel (08:19.427) Right, right. We. Daniel (08:25.047) drive the skin from the body? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (08:25.546) Yeah, I guess it says that's kind of what it's saying here is, or it's implying that you're striking, you're having to tear the skin off. So because it comes from that same idea there, it's not a metaphor, like it's not a compelling play, but you're impaling the skin. Daniel (08:32.831) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (08:37.341) Interesting. Daniel (08:43.951) Okay. I wonder, you know, there's also the verb pelt meaning like you throw with stones, or you know, like you hit you. I wonder if that's related to it too. Yeah. Okay. This is great. Kevin (08:48.65) Yes, axe, well done, well done. There we, yes, that's another one. Three points, yes, yes. Kevin (08:59.01) What would you do with a car if you really wanted to clean it? What would you do? Daniel (09:05.219) I wanted to clean it? Kevin (09:05.706) Yeah, you would also do it to a table. Kevin (09:12.886) Two syllables. Daniel (09:13.14) Um... Kevin (09:15.97) could be thought to be similar to someone from Poland. Daniel (09:17.375) Pout. Daniel (09:24.183) polish? polish, really? interesting, interesting Kevin (09:24.278) Yes! Polish comes from this as well. Polish. I guess you're driving thrusting, right? You're... Yeah, driving the dirt away. Daniel (09:33.975) driving the dirt away or the schmutz away. Wow. Who knew that Pell had so many derivatives? Kevin (09:37.814) the schmutz to polish. Yeah. I-I-I'm look- do you want it- go ahead you got one? Daniel (09:47.943) No, no, I'm still thinking. Go ahead, go for it. Kevin (09:49.386) You could use it in the sense of getting rid of things, like people have some bad thoughts or something in the room, and you can, if you did something, you would. Two syllables has Pell in it. Daniel (10:05.363) expel okay oh okay cool i like this um Kevin (10:06.07) Yeah, actually it wasn't what I was going for. I was going for dispel, but expel, expel. Yes would work too. Yeah Kevin (10:16.919) What about in the Middle Ages when they wanted to throw something into your castle? Yes, catapult! This is the best root word ever! Daniel (10:22.367) Catapult? Really? That is the best root word ever. Interesting. So polish, catapult, expel, they all come from the same root word. Kevin (10:37.29) Yeah, it obviously is I don't know if has to do with past tenses or what that it kind of morphs But there this is what they're saying. They also give push comes from it repel repeal Daniel (10:48.199) No way. Repel, that makes sense. That makes sense. Repeal. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Kevin (10:51.31) appeal, repel or rappel, repel down, that's, it's not rappel, it's, I'm getting confused now, all the words are making me, you can repel something and you can repel down a R-A-P-P-E-L, yeah. Daniel (10:59.1) Repel or no? Daniel (11:03.091) Right, right, right. It seems to me like half of the English words come from this root. That's amazing. I think we should spend the rest of the episode only speaking in words that come from Pell. Please. Ha ha ha. Kevin (11:14.899) You know we should- Kevin (11:22.421) Alright, enough of game time, but yes, isn't that fun? Daniel (11:27.551) I like that. I like, I wonder now does, does please, does please come from it? I wonder. It's fine. It's fine. We can talk about it later. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. That is fascinating. Thank you. You know, it, for our listeners or viewers who may be enjoying this, it reminds me, it's been a while since I've listened to the podcast, but an excellent podcast out there. Kevin (11:36.894) Not that I know of. I'm not seeing it here. I'd have to do a little more research. Yeah. Yes. Daniel (11:53.991) that I used to listen to is Board Game Blitz, and they would end every episode with an etymology, just for the fun of it. It was really cool. So if you like etymologies, if they're still doing that, I'm not sure, but you can check out Board Game Blitz. Yeah, so cool. Kevin (12:07.53) Yeah, because words are games after all. Kind of. Words are games. But today's topic, Daniel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (12:12.999) Words are games after all. Thank you, Kevin, that was nice. Yeah, yeah, I like it. So yeah, so today we are talking about this. That was a good kind of more lighthearted way to start the episode. This episode, maybe a little bit heavier, but we won't go too heavy, but it's an episode about death in games, death in gaming. And I'm grateful, Kevin, for your willingness to go along with this. This is a subject that... I had suggested, it just felt to me like, you know, we talk about how play and games relate to so much of life. And it made me wonder, you know, how my playing games relate to kind of the hard stuff of life too, kind of is. And so could we talk about what might games or play have to reveal to us about death as well? think maybe a helpful way to talk about to begin might just be to say, you know, how, how is death represented in games? You know, because, you know, it's the very, I mean, this is not original to, to me or to us, but you know, it's the very nature of games to abstract something, everything really in a way, you know, get games are from some perspective and exercise and abstraction, you know, they say this piece of wood represents a sheep, you know, and Kevin (13:33.491) Mm-hmm. Kevin (13:37.568) Right. Right, right. Daniel (13:41.639) And this roll of the dice represents luck in life. And you know, it's everything is an abstraction. And so how have we seen death abstracted in games? How is death represented? Any thoughts on that? Kevin (13:57.322) Yeah, it depends on the piece, doesn't it? So if you think of a chessboard and you have two bishops, the Bishop of Winchester. Well, see, they're just abstractions. They're just bishops. But if I say it's the Bishop of Winchester, and he's 58 years old, and he has three cousins, then now it's less abstract because I've given him particulars. You don't care if he's a real abstraction. He's just a piece. He's just a word. He's just a bishop. You don't really feel it. Daniel (14:01.121) Mm-hmm Daniel (14:18.515) Right. Daniel (14:27.199) Right, right. Kevin (14:28.839) if you connect with that piece or that character through story or action or something, then you might feel his death and beyond just an abstraction. Is that fair? Yeah. Daniel (14:41.791) Right, right. So the more it's yeah, yeah. So the more it's abstracted, the kind of the more emotionally removed we can be. So you're Kevin (14:48.138) Yeah, we don't even think of the pieces you took my piece or you took it off the board, but we don't you generally speak of you killed my bishop. You could, but I don't think most chess players say that often. But if you're playing D&D, you don't talk about the characters coming off the scenario. You talk about them dying because they feel real because they have real human. Daniel (14:56.425) Right. The Rook didn't kill the Bishop. Daniel (15:06.655) Hmm. And then it is a lot more emotional connection, right? Because yeah, it's a lot less abstracted. Kevin (15:10.294) Yes, yes. And it reminds me of creative writing. You're supposed to have lots of good particulars. You just don't want a guy. You want a guy that's five foot seven with a stubbly beard and red hair. And he has a bit of a limp, right? Like those are the particulars that make us believe a character and connect to the character. Daniel (15:18.815) Yeah. Daniel (15:32.671) Why is it that we come to care more about something the more particular as we get about it? I wonder. I don't have the answer for that, but I. Kevin (15:39.338) That's such a good question. I don't know unless that's maybe just the way we experience life. We know life is filled with particulars. And so to connect to life, you know, it's... It feels unreal or surreal if it is too universalized or too abstracted. Daniel (15:47.763) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (15:55.827) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (16:02.891) It's just a thought then. Yeah. Kevin (16:03.394) Just a thought. So we don't care about triangles or math. But if that was little Johnny's favorite math shape and he, I don't know, some kid made fun of him for liking triangle math homework, then you're like, aww. Yeah, then we connect. Daniel (16:16.148) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (16:21.903) Right, now there's emotional connection, a human connection. Yeah. So yeah, so on the basic level, most basic level, one way death is abstracted in games is, like you said, like in chess, just removing a piece, right? Yeah, like so a pawn comes forward, captures, you're right, we talk about capturing, right? But in a way, it's a kind of death that they remove the piece from the game and it's gone. And I think you brought this up in kind of some of our pre-show notes, Kevin, that... Kevin (16:32.491) Mm-hmm. Kevin (16:40.118) Yeah, because they can't come back. Right. Daniel (16:48.431) that's maybe a fundamental way that death is represented in games is that it permanently changes the state of the game, right? That there was a peace in this game and now it's gone, right? Now it's absent and it's not coming back. Kevin (16:52.343) Mm-hmm. Daniel (17:02.391) kind of that sense of permanently changing the game? Was that sound fair? Kevin (17:08.458) Yes, although the game itself is temporary. So it's never permanent in a game, right? Because the game has to go back in its box. Daniel (17:21.299) Right, right. And. Kevin (17:22.338) So insofar as it can feel temporarily permanent. Yes. Daniel (17:28.623) Right. Which I think philosophers, I mean like Bernard Suetz, you know, who we often talk about, who wrote the Grasshopper, this kind of magnum opus of the philosophy of games. We talked about in previous episodes, you know, he kind of has this thing that, you know, from a certain cosmic perspective, like everything's temporary too. You know what I mean? So like that's, but that's maybe a different category. Kevin (17:53.186) Hmm. I forgot he said that. Okay, okay, yeah. Okay. Daniel (17:56.007) You know, how about we get to that at the end? How about we get to that at the end? When we talk about lessons and maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. So yeah, so any other ways that death is abstracted in games, we can remove a piece, a piece can change, but in some way the state of the game is permanently changed until the end of the game, at least given with this temporary environment. Kevin (18:20.118) Yeah, or it could just deal with the topic of death. So it could be that the game itself is relating to themes around mortality, which there are some games that seek to do that. So maybe in some ways, every game has, well, I shouldn't say every, because if the game's about like trees, photosynthesis, maybe some people connect to trees deeply, but I would think that's not a common response. You don't really care about the tree. You care about the trees because you want to win, but you don't Daniel (18:24.96) Hmm. Daniel (18:29.811) Yeah. Daniel (18:46.357) Right. Kevin (18:50.222) emotionally care about their survival so we tend to care about animals that are human like dogs and cats barely I'm a cat owner and I don't know why so because they're so like Inhuman is what I'm partly joking about but yeah, it has to have human like qualities. Ultimately. I don't care about minerals we don't really care about the Sun and we don't really care about say bats, but Daniel (18:54.176) Yeah. Daniel (19:11.487) Ha ha Kevin (19:17.874) Animals that have human-like qualities such as love or devotion or friendship or look us in the face that have faces like Hours we connect we don't connect with an octopus Because they don't really look at us, but a dog or a cat So yeah, if it has those characters we connect and we care about their deaths But I don't think if a game I guess i'm debating if all games are about death But i'm not sure they are because some games are either too abstracted or they're not really about Daniel (19:25.473) Mm-hmm. Daniel (19:29.171) Mm-hmm. Kevin (19:46.698) Like Monopoly, you don't experience death in Monopoly, because it's about property. Or Uno, yeah, it's just math. But some games either directly or indirectly do deal with questions of mortality. So like Dead of Winter, which I've never played, but evidently you're kind of, or This War of Mine, are games where people are trying to survive, and when you're dead, you're dead. In fact, that's a hard bit with games is player elimination. Daniel (19:50.747) Right, right, right. Or uno or things like that. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (20:17.223) Right, right. Which some players really go into, but some players don't. Yeah, yeah, the player elimination aspect can make games for some players really hard. Kevin (20:18.25) Like it makes it fun, but yeah. Kevin (20:26.71) And I would argue no one likes it if you get eliminated early on because then when you do and that's the hard bit even in a game like coup, which is That's player elimination, but you're stuck there five or ten minutes. Just doing nothing watching So that's a tricky issue so Yeah, no just some games use it. Well like nemesis because that is about survival He felt like the designer Daniel (20:32.115) Right, right, yeah. Daniel (20:41.587) Right. Well that might, go ahead. Kevin (20:53.87) Kwepinski felt like he had to include player elimination and he tries to build a way that if you die you can control the aliens the monsters, but you know Anyway, it certainly heightens. Here's to your point The death heightens the drama of the game player elimination heightens the drama because now you can actually be out of the game It makes Monopoly very dramatic, but it's also not fun Daniel (21:18.6) It raises the stakes of a game. Kevin (21:19.574) racist things of the game. You might not just lose, you might actually just have to sit around and watch other people play. Or they send you on a beer run or something. Hey, let's get Daniel out of the game. He'll go buy us drinks. Daniel (21:26.399) Right, right. Daniel (21:30.175) which I think, which gives us, which maybe is a good, everyone gang up on Daniel, which is a good segue maybe to some examples of death in games. But before we do, I just maybe also want to say a subject we've kind of danced around with. Of course, you know, you talk about death for very long, you can't help but talk about grief. And of course grief is a very difficult and hard subject. And you know, I don't think this is an episode about grief necessarily, but we just want to acknowledge that, that of course, you know, grief is such an important and unavoidable response to loss. But, but this episode itself is not necessarily a in-depth look at, at grief, it's more just kind of thinking about death as an abstraction in games and what we can learn from that. But certainly the grieving response to loss is so important and so huge and worthy of its own. Kevin (22:06.711) Right. Kevin (22:13.612) right. Daniel (22:29.715) of its own, a lifetime of lessons and conversations. But. Kevin (22:33.518) Right. And there are people that have written how games help them process their grief through various things. And so, yeah, that's really another top, another day, another topic. But yeah, the games have played a played a part of people's working through some elements of their grief. Daniel (22:40.935) Yeah. Daniel (22:45.203) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (22:53.003) So what are some examples of death in games? We're talking about chess already, but what are some other, you mentioned nemesis, what are some other examples of death in games? Kevin (23:01.261) Mm-hmm. Well, one would be a game like Werewolf, which is like the mafia game, where people again play elimination and people can die. Daniel (23:09.536) Yeah. Daniel (23:13.511) So how does that work? I've only played werewolf once, but basically that's the thing where like you close your eyes, is that right? And then the werewolf comes around and tells you that you're dead or something like that. I've never played the mafia game, no. Kevin (23:18.014) Yes. Did you play the old mafia game? You didn't play that? Interesting, because that was a big deal back when you were growing up. But not, I guess it did not get to uh out into Missouri, but yes. Yeah there's a whole, they can trace, it came from Russia. Some people invented Russia and then it managed, yeah there's a weird, they can trace the direct history of this game. In fact, why it's mafia based, because it doesn't have to be mafia, but it- Daniel (23:27.79) Oh, interesting. Daniel (23:33.748) Maybe we didn't. Really? Daniel (23:44.571) Interesting. So it's the same mechanism as the werewolf game. Kevin (23:47.606) Yeah, werewolf just took it and made it more standardized with cards. But yeah, everyone has a secret role and one person can eliminate other people. Daniel (23:51.135) reskinned it. Interesting. Daniel (23:58.803) Okay, right, okay. Kevin (23:59.198) and you have to have a game master to run it. Daniel (24:03.216) Right who doles out the roles like you're a werewolf you're a villager things like that. Okay. Okay Kevin (24:04.854) Who doles out the rolls, yep. Yep, and then they, so every night somebody, the werewolf kills somebody. So that gives you clues as to who might be the werewolf. Daniel (24:16.403) Alright, and death in that case means you're sitting out of the game, right? But isn't there still some role that you can play like as a ghost or something like that? Am I? It's been so long since I played werewolf. Kevin (24:25.326) That, I don't know if they have that there, they might. The game that people really like that I would love to play, Blood on the Clock Tower has that as a mechanism. And they can even vote somehow. So Werewolf might have something, but I think it's very limited what you can do. But there, there is a kind of death. You're out of the game, but you don't create a persona. You don't really care about the persona. All you care about is winning. So I think the death there is really more of just a label. Daniel (24:37.551) Okay. Interesting. Kevin (24:53.39) It's not a real experience. It's player elimination, but it's not. You don't really mourn the loss of your character like you would in say D&D, where evidently there are big campaigns where people die and they cry because they love this character so much that they built and now he's dead. They play that guy for years, yeah. Daniel (24:57.96) Right. Daniel (25:09.02) Mmm. That's interesting. I could see where that would be. A source of grief. Yeah. Kevin (25:15.542) Connected yet this whole backstory. Yeah. Kevin (25:21.907) You suggested Village, which I don't know exactly, but I vaguely know of it. Daniel (25:22.987) Huh. Daniel (25:26.863) Yeah, yeah, Village is a game that I have, that I enjoy. I haven't played it as much as I would like to, but Death is a very integral part of that game that you have these generations of village workers, village families, and village people, you might even call them. Kevin (25:50.818) Village people. Daniel (25:54.751) That's right. And you're trying to construct a YMCA in the middle of the village. And it is, you feel compelled to stay at the YMCA or to go in the Navy. And then you can do that too. So, but yeah, no, so you can. Kevin (26:02.062) Because it's fun to stay there. In fact, you feel compelled to stay there, if you will. Kevin (26:15.755) I'm sorry. Daniel (26:25.299) And these village people, these village families, there are generations of them. Like let's say I control the purple meeples. These are represented by meeples, right? And this, I'm the purple player, so I've got all these purple meeples. The purple meeples have numbers on them, one to four. And first you start off with the number one meeples, because this is the first generation. And they go around and they do their work. But eventually the first generation is gonna die off. And then the number two generation starts to do their work. And eventually the number two is gonna die off. And as the meeples die off through this mechanism that's built into the game, potentially you could bury them in the cemetery. There's a cemetery outside of the village. This is all represented on a big game board. And based on what they did in their life when they were alive, Kevin (26:56.759) Hmm. Daniel (27:23.719) you can get points on where and how you bury these meeples in the cemetery. And I think it's called kind of like their legacy, like their book of legacy or whatever. And so if they worked in the, I forget now, let's say like the woodworking shop, then they leave a legacy of good fine carpentry in the village. And then that's an end game, that's a source of end game points as well. And so... Kevin (27:49.902) Hmm. Daniel (27:52.907) There's a sense of death is this natural part of this game. You have generations of meeples that die off and how it's gonna how they live their lives corresponds to the end state of the game. And it's interesting. I find it really interesting. It's very much changing the permanent state of the game as much as you can change the permanent state of a game in that you lose these meeples that you would relied on. Kevin (28:16.462) So what it's done is it's yeah, it's built in a death mechanic, if you will, because they age and die. And then it's built in a memorial mechanic where you are remembering. Daniel (28:24.693) Yeah. Daniel (28:28.659) Right, right, yeah. Kevin (28:29.918) which is really kind of cool. Huh, there. I got this. This isn't in our notes, but you're reminding me I've been trying to work through a little bit of ISS Vanguard, which I finally got a copy of after kickstarting it in 2004, I think. I think I kickstarted when Daniel and I were still in college anyway. Because somehow I clicked on second wave delivery. Daniel (28:33.98) Yeah, so that's an example. Daniel (28:45.02) Yeah, that's so exciting. Kevin (28:59.298) But it has a mechanic that I've only played a couple scenarios. And don't worry, I've already lost. But eventually you get a bunch of different characters. They get cart. You get a trapper keeper for your ship. And you do the ship thing. Yeah, it is. And so these are my people that are in the med bay. It's crazy. And there is a section if they die, there is a memorial wall. Daniel (29:00.669) Okay, okay. Daniel (29:12.182) Yeah. Daniel (29:16.299) that's worth it in itself. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (29:22.967) That's so cool. Kevin (29:30.258) and you slot them in there. So far no one's died, but yeah, you do get, and you do rank them up, they get to go up in levels. So I can see that you, there's not a specific backstory. They do have unique art and names, which gives you a specific, you know, a little bit of connection. And I think there's a book that might give you some backstories, like that's an extra you can order, but you do level them up, which does connect you when you've... Daniel (29:30.824) Ah, that is very similar. Huh, interesting. Daniel (29:53.896) Okay. Kevin (29:58.374) When you've seen someone grow, you've helped them grow, that's another way we bond, I think, with creatures. Which would include plant life, like when you grow a tree, if you plant a tree and grow it, you would be sad if it died. So I think watching something grow is also another specific of how we, being part of their story and connecting. Gloomhaven's got some of that as well, that you retire your characters. They don't die. Daniel (30:06.656) Yeah. Daniel (30:15.379) Yeah, that's true. That's true. Daniel (30:23.391) That's a good point. Mm-hmm. Kevin (30:27.318) But in a sense, you lose control of them. And what's... Yeah, there's a lovely bit where one of the mechanics, when they retire, you put a new card, there's event cards, basically, road cards or something, town cards and stuff. You put that in the deck and you can meet your old character. And that is a really cool thing I've never seen anyone else do in a game. Daniel (30:30.875) Yeah, I remember. Go ahead. Daniel (30:53.865) The character lives on, but you're not in control of that person anymore. Interesting. Kevin (30:54.218) You retire so you have this character you open a box, right? You have no you have no idea anything about this turkey, you know anything about this person? They just have a symbol on a box and there's a few you can pick So you pick blind you get a box of the symbol you open up and you're a little Mouse King or something little Mouse dude And you help him and he grows through certain levels you go all these adventures and eventually when he meets his goal he retires and that triggers a card to go in this event deck and you may later be at the tavern and you see that guy over there you know and i thought that was so cool it's like a memorial wall you're like oh my rat guy look he's still doing stuff but i don't get to control him anymore yeah Daniel (31:27.132) Interesting. Daniel (31:32.771) Interesting, interesting. Huh. So one thing I think it's coming out of the last few minutes of this talk here is the sense that sometimes accompanying a death mechanism in a game is also a memorial mechanism, right? A way of remembering. Kevin (31:46.829) Yes. Right. Daniel (31:51.615) That might be a kind of a good lesson from games on that, just the importance of. Daniel (32:00.628) Remembering. Kevin (32:02.722) Jenny and I have commented, we've seen some people that have died recently. There's kind of a trend to maybe not doing funerals. I don't know if you've seen this, but they just have a private family thing, or they didn't want a funeral. And while you want to respect the deceased's wishes, it really robs. Everyone else the chance to say goodbye. So it makes sense. Daniel (32:03.904) Why is that? Daniel (32:14.816) Yeah. Daniel (32:25.587) Yeah, yeah, it does, it does, yeah, yeah. Kevin (32:27.074) So there's someone that we knew at the church that has died that we would have gone to the service and it would have been a comfort to us, and they're not having a service. Despite her being a lifelong church member, she kind of has opted. I think it's like weddings. Funerals have become very personal, private experiences. Well, I shouldn't say personal, private, because weddings are public, but people want them unique, so they're in destination places, and they're much more... Daniel (32:37.375) Yeah. Kevin (32:57.418) decentralized. Daniel (32:59.879) Right, right. Yeah, that's such an interesting observation. Yeah, we had that at a church where I was pastoring once too, that there was just a beloved member of the church and just deeply loved by the congregation. But their family were not in the congregation. And when this person passed away, the family chose not to have a service. And yeah, that really... Kevin (33:02.924) Yeah. Kevin (33:20.174) Hmm. Daniel (33:28.815) That was hard for the congregation. Yeah. Just kind of no way of saying goodbye. Kevin (33:33.854) Yeah, time to remember and a sense of closure. Otherwise it's hanging out there. So I don't know if I could see if. Daniel (33:40.608) Yeah. Kevin (33:44.094) If I had to make the choice, I might even go against somebody's wishes. They might have said, I don't want a funeral, but I might in certain circumstances be tempted to have a funeral anyway, because it's really not for the person who has died. They're gone. It's for the people left behind. And, and it would be hard to deny people a comfort, even if the person didn't want it, you know, which might seem kind of wrong, but they're not part of the equation in many ways, it would seem to me. Daniel (33:57.422) Yeah. Daniel (34:01.979) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (34:08.923) Right, right. I don't know if it was a good idea or helpful or not, but what I did in that case, in our case, the person who died, and there wasn't a funeral, but the person was deeply beloved, I went ahead and just used that person as the primary example in a sermon, then like a week or two later. It was kind of a eulogy, but kind of not on a Sunday morning, just in a regular Sunday morning worship service. Kevin (34:26.819) Mm-hmm. Right. Clever, clever, I like it. Daniel (34:34.311) I don't know if it was Claire, but thanks. I just, it felt, it felt needed just because everyone, everyone just really missed this person a lot. They, they meant a lot to the congregation. So, um, so, um, so village is another example of death and games. Um, I, I found myself in preparing for this episode, also thinking about our conversation with, um, the Reverend Alice Connor a few episodes ago, um, Kevin (34:39.478) Gotcha. Yeah. Daniel (35:03.975) And she, you know, very much, she has this great appreciation for games that I might call like art games, you know, that games that maybe have very limited release, but are just try to say something emotionally. And I think art games are like that. Like I think about train, which we've talked about before on this podcast where there's only like, well, like three editions of train in the whole world and that, but it's this game where you're loading things into a train and then at the end you realize that you're. These are human beings that you're loading into a train and they're going to a furnace. I think it's a simulation of a concentration camp and just the emotional impact of that, of death in that game. A game you'd only play once, you know, for the horrificness of that and the terribleness of that. Endurance is a game, I think, that, from Annabel Holland, that you and I have both had, you've had more contact with, I have, but I have a copy as well. Kevin (35:33.668) Mm-hmm. Kevin (35:53.198) Mm-hmm. Daniel (35:58.567) or a story of survival trying to survive in the Antarctic, the Shackleton expedition. I've read through the rules. I haven't played it yet, no. But it seems like some very difficult moments related to death, both of human beings and of animals in that game, it seems like. Kevin (36:00.586) Mm-hmm. Oh yeah, have you played it yet? Kevin (36:15.606) Yeah, and you know that that's an interesting one because you get a few specifics you get the photos on the cards and you get specific names. You don't get a lot of description, but you they do go through very human moments where they have to eat and then they need entertainment so. So some of the items that you say from the ship or like the phonograph or there's a trumpet there's some kind of musical instrument and then there's a cat Mrs Stibs or something or Mr Tibs he's got a funny name. Daniel (36:21.939) Yeah. Daniel (36:32.777) Yeah. Daniel (36:40.727) Interesting. Daniel (36:46.036) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (36:46.082) And so they need that for their morale. And so going through that connects you with those characters, even though you don't have a lot of backstory, you don't know about their families or their likes or dislikes, but they seem to feel human emotions because they need food and they need entertainment and they are afraid and they're hungry. So yeah, that's a really great game. Daniel (37:05.867) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for suggesting it. Daniel (37:15.122) Any other examples of death and g- Kevin (37:17.674) Maybe we should do a play through since we both have a copy. Maybe we should do like a play through of that. That'd be kind of fun because we could set it up the same way. Like I could say, which what card I drew and then you could find that card and vice versa. If you kind of sync them up or something anyway, that would be cool. Daniel (37:22.271) We could do a playthrough, that would be fun. Yeah. Okay, okay. Daniel (37:30.783) Yeah, I like that. Daniel (37:35.324) Can I play the penguins? Kevin (37:40.107) I think that impacts your morale too like when you have to start eating them. There's at least there's a card that triggers them like they liked watching them. They really didn't want to eat them but they were starving. I know no it's a terrible game. Daniel (37:46.299) I think that's right. Daniel (37:54.947) I would, I would, we could, we could. Kevin (37:55.73) Except for it's beautiful because the idea that they actually survived is the whole point which is Against all odds they survived Yes, yes, and the awfulness of it Yeah and she even designed it where if you played it you end up doing a lot of Uh maintenance like you have to keep doing the cards till you hit a certain card and there's a lot of cards And she wanted you to she did that intentionally so you felt the drudgery of having to Daniel (38:01.107) Right, right. Lifting up just kind of the miraculousness of that. Yeah, yeah. Like, how is survival possible? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (38:24.441) what it was like for them, which a lot of it was just waiting. Daniel (38:24.532) Mm-hmm. Daniel (38:28.615) Yeah, yeah. It is an art game in so many ways, a game that's just really, yeah, it's geared to creating an emotional effect. Yeah. Kevin (38:33.288) That is an art game you were mentioning. Kevin (38:38.382) I wonder if Alice Connors played it. Yeah. No, it's very experimental. It's very weird, which is why I really appreciate it. Yeah, I was gonna say legacy games, which can create a certain, yeah. Yeah, I know when I played Pandemic Legacy, like one, when cities are dying, even though they're cities and they're obviously very abstract, I still felt a sense of panic. Daniel (38:44.467) Yeah. The other thing you mentioned in... go ahead, go ahead. Yes, that's what I was going to say. You brought that up. I think that's a great idea. Yeah. Kevin (39:06.446) Because you're like, oh no, this whole city would, something about the scale of it. You don't know anybody in there. You don't know any stories, but you still feel connected. And there's a global sense of urgency of, oh my gosh. Mumbai is overrun. What are we going to do? And that might've been my fault. If we could have, if I could have drawn the other card, we might've saved Mumbai. Yeah. It's, it's really cool. Daniel (39:07.699) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel (39:23.463) Yeah. So for our listeners. Daniel (39:28.787) You could have saved the science city. Yeah. For our listeners or viewers who are not familiar with the concept of a legacy game, how would you define that? What is a legacy game? Kevin (39:36.234) A legacy game has a limited number of playthroughs and tends to be destructive of the components. There are exceptions, but in a classic legacy, once you've played through it 10, 15, 20 times, whatever, it's more of like a D&D campaign. It has a set story, but you may also destroy cards and mark up the board, which is really exciting. And itself it's kind of like a loss or a death in that you can't play it again. Like there's no going back unless you cheat and replay the scenario. You could do that, but... or house rule it. Daniel (40:05.183) Mm-hmm. Daniel (40:10.591) Yeah. So the state of the game is permanently changed from one play to another, like from you put it back in the box, the next time you take it out, you're not going to play it the same way you played the first time because that you said components have been ripped up or the board has been marked with a marker. Yeah. Kevin (40:21.546) Yeah. So it's super exciting. Yeah, the events have a certain poignancy to them because if car, if you have to tear up that card or put that sticker on, yeah, no going back versus a game that's infinitely resettable. Like most, most games are, there are some legacies that try to not destroy stuff. So by cards, they alter and then you can reshuffle the card. So Vanguard does that. It's, it's a play through, but you don't ever destroy the components, but certain cards will mark out certain other cards. Daniel (40:33.876) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (40:53.127) So it does have a sense of risk and one-wayness and interconnected stories. So it's not, I guess, a pure legacy game. Yeah, legacy games can connect you to the board and the game in some powerful ways. Daniel (41:08.531) Yeah. I'd like to see Legacy Uno. Kevin (41:13.283) Not the red one, not the red one. His wife just left him. Daniel (41:15.986) I really... Daniel (41:21.991) No, not Red 6. Poor Red 6. I remember Red 6. Kevin (41:22.938) for not Red 6, he just got second. Daniel (41:32.439) Ha ha ha! Kevin (41:35.53) We should get really elaborate shadow boxes that we then memorialize random you know, cards by the paper like, oh, blue cream to create two. Daniel (41:44.883) Red six. Yeah, that sounds, remember that time when red six and blue green and green two were in the park and they were like rowing against across the lake. And then the storm came up and. Kevin (41:55.582) Then I have a big party and I have that shadow box memorial wall of my uno cards and this people are the non-gamers think this guy is really into games and I don't know how to play uno and then the gamers are like, I don't know what's wrong with this guy. Everyone thinks you're a little insane. Daniel (42:13.633) Ha ha! Kevin (42:17.93) You Daniel (42:18.615) Whoever do Patreon, this will be a stretch goal. Legacy Uno with the permission of the... Is it Hasbro that makes Uno? Yeah, I don't see they'd have any concern with that. Kevin (42:20.366) I think it'd be a stretch goal. Kevin (42:26.578) Oh yeah, they're gonna definitely give us permission to do that. Yeah, no, I think it's positive use of their game. I can see you now. Daniel (42:35.947) That's right. That's great. Um, so, well, you know, I think we were talking about closing the last section of, of this episode being talking about lessons of faith from death and games. Like, what can we learn about matters of faith, um, from death and games? And I think you've already, you've already named one, Kevin, that wasn't even in our notes, which this Kevin (42:40.041) I'm sorry. Daniel (43:05.167) But you brought it up kind of from a few different angles, but this is just this important of this importance, this importance of naming and remembering and having a way to remember a name in the face of death, right? That I mean, that these games that build in a memorial wall or a cemetery or, you know, whatever, or seeing your character again in Gloomhaven after kind of the grief of letting them go. That that's an important part of the human. soul's response to death and loss, right? A way to name, to remember. I'm glad that you brought that up. Kevin (43:36.695) Mm-hmm. Kevin (43:42.954) Yeah, yeah, and although death is terrible, it does make human life kind of precious in a um in a weird way. Like it makes it makes our time on earth and the time we have with others much more precious knowing that it is limited. And while that's not a primary goal of games to explore that, as an art form they certainly have a freedom to explore it and they can explore it richly. Daniel (43:49.856) Mm-hmm. Kevin (44:10.942) in kind of an art type setting as you're commenting earlier or a legacy type game. But yeah, if it reminds us that life is precious and the particularities of life are precious, that's pretty neat. Daniel (44:23.359) Yeah. The particularities like the name, the stories, the legacy. Kevin (44:27.126) Yeah, the name, the stories, the legacy, the value this person had. It's like in Vanguard, you know, this person helped us. Because Vanguard is about humans making first contact and reaching outer space. And that's not a spoiler. I'm only in scenario three. So If that's part of the story, then you value their contribution to the larger mission type thing. Yeah, so when games do that, that's pretty great to remind us to be grateful for the time we have and grateful for others and naming what makes them special. Yeah. Daniel (44:52.287) Yeah. Daniel (45:05.419) There is such truth and importance in remembering. I'm trying to figure out a way to describe why that's important. But maybe it's just what you said, that this is how we... Demonstrate the value we placed on the things that made that person unique or that thing unique I'm mindful of go ahead Kevin (45:29.782) Yeah, I just wonder if it's just part of being human, is that we just see the world as particulars. So if we met aliens, they may not. And we can abstract, we do math, and we invent chests and things that are more abstract, but we really live in particulars. You know, this meal, this taco is better than the other taco, right? So I think that's just a basic way of humans existing. Although in a religious mode, God created the particulars, so God must love them, too. Daniel (45:38.067) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (45:50.836) Right. Daniel (45:55.255) I think we create meaning. Go ahead. Kevin (45:58.83) because God made particulars, but anyway. Daniel (46:00.339) Yeah, right, right. Like Dave Bindewald said, a friend of the podcast, yeah, that. God, the world conceivably could just exist fine with like three types of beetles or whatever, but we have like hundreds of thousands of species of beetles. And so apparently God just really thinks particulars are really cool. Yeah, yeah. Kevin (46:16.202) Right. Yes, yes. Kevin (46:22.998) Yeah, and nature is really messy. It's like most fish are not mammals, but there are some creatures in the ocean that are mammals, like whales, right? Like they have a, let's just be honest, biology's a big mess. I mean, they got all these rules and exceptions. I mean, it's worse than the tax code. Y'all suck. So anyway, nature's a big old mess, and that's exciting. In fact, while all trees look the same, most, they're actually descended from different prior. Daniel (46:26.589) Yeah. Daniel (46:33.087) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (46:39.047) Yeah. Daniel (46:46.614) Yeah. Kevin (46:51.726) creatures or plants, I mean. Like, they don't come from a common ancestor, yeah. I saw this thing, like, it's different forms of life found that form similarly effective, but they don't all come from a single tree. Isn't that wild? Yeah, so they have different ancestors, even if they're all trees. And then some, yeah, and then there's such varieties. And then some... Daniel (46:55.464) Really? Interesting. Daniel (47:10.063) Interesting. I didn't know that. That's, yeah, that is wild. Huh. Thank you. Kevin (47:18.558) Some can live underwater like aquatic plants and then some live up in the trees with no soil. There's something like mistletoe. Mistletoe grows in branches. It doesn't need soil at all. It's so weird. Yeah, I'm never going outside again. It's filled with terrifying things. It could propel me into a propulsive Daniel (47:28.863) Hmm, okay. Really, I didn't know that. Huh. No, a tree could take root, just in the air around you. Yeah, that would be... Daniel (47:49.215) Hmm, that was good. No, no, no. Well, no, it's just, I was just thinking about the importance of remembering. It just, it caused me to recall something that we talk about in church sometimes about like, so speaking of etymology, it's this we had at the beginning, you know, that to remember, you know, it's you. Kevin (47:50.634) Anyway, you were going to say something. I think I kind of ran over you there. I apologize. Daniel (48:16.463) literally to kind of put the members back together again. You know, like if, at least you can see that in there, you know, if we used to do something again. And then, so you remember, when you remember somebody, something, you're putting the members of the body back together again. You're creating that reality again. You are remembering it. So, that's one lesson, the importance of memory. Kevin (48:19.818) Right. Kevin (48:28.566) Huh. Yeah. Daniel (48:45.412) What other lessons of faith do you think we can learn from death in gaming? Kevin (48:51.138) I mean, this is kind of mystical or trippy, but we could also say that death is not the end. And while it's painful, we could say that some games remind us that there may be something beyond it, and that's from a religious point of view, and different religions look at that in different ways, whether it's resurrection or heaven or eternal rest, or maybe becoming a part of the larger web of life and type, you know. So... Daniel (49:07.232) Yeah. Daniel (49:20.011) Yeah. Kevin (49:21.174) But the idea that somehow death is a doorway? I guess games could remind us of that in the sense that they end and they begin. Daniel (49:29.383) Yeah, eternally, in a way, you can, you can, you can put the box away and take it out forever. If you, yeah. Yeah, that was something that hit me as we were talking that there's kind of like, I like that. In some ways, games are about the permanence of death, you know, like the, the Kevin (49:30.214) of which, mm-hmm, eternally. Daniel (49:56.907) the permanent changing of state. I guess they're calling back to the beginning of the episode, you know, like within the system of the game, it's about the permanent changing of the game, right? The pawn takes, kills the bishop, right? And it's gone forever for the rest of the game. But in another way, they also represent very well kind of the impermanence of death. And I guess I'm a little bit hesitant to talk about this because Kevin (50:05.621) Mm-hmm. Kevin (50:10.892) Right. Daniel (50:25.551) it is not comforting to those who are grieving. So I don't, I'm not offering this as a comfort to grief. Right, right, right. So, yeah, but it's, you know, exactly. Yeah, you know, I think in Christian theology, we might talk about it as resurrection or the new creation. And certainly not exactly the same idea. Kevin (50:27.394) Sure, sure. It may be comforting to some, but it may not, right? So people will vary. So this is not a grief counseling moment, this is a mortality theorizing. Yeah, I think that's a good point to say. Daniel (50:52.383) but some similar themes in other faiths as well. And one of the images from Buddhism that I have found, especially compelling. Kevin (51:07.071) Wait what? I found that less than compelling Daniel. It was positively repelling. Daniel (51:07.271) I was trying to use the compelling word there. Sorry. An image. Oh, sorry. Sorry. I was trying to. I should have. I should have emphasized it more with my voice. An image from Buddhism I found especially compelling. How about that? Is. And, and, and of course, as our listeners know, I mean, I'm, I'm not Buddhist, so I can't, I can't speak definitively as somebody who practices the, but, but from what I've read there. Kevin (51:21.492) Oh my god. Kevin (51:33.006) But it's your next favorite religion, is that fair? Yeah, I would put it there. It's probably my second favorite. If God banned me from Christianity, I might go Buddhist. Wouldn't that be funny? The Lord will let me back. Daniel (51:36.691) Well, I like them all. I like them all. But yeah, but there's this image. You cannot be a Christian. But there's this image in Buddhism that I love. And honestly, it has probably become one of my favorite go-to images of eternal life, even in Christian circles. Kevin (51:49.052) Hail Shiva. Daniel (52:02.983) which is the image of the ocean. I don't think I've talked about this on board game faith yet, but if I'm repeating myself, I apologize. But the image of the ocean, right? And I guess I got this from the writings of Thich Nhat Hanh, who just died recently. But he says, he says, you know, think about God, the universe, life, whatever you want to call it as the ocean, right? And each one of us is kind of like a wave on the ocean, right? And there's a time when you can look at a wave And you can definitively say that's the start of the wave. Right? That's when the wave begins to emerge out of the ocean. And you could say that's the birth. Right? That is the birth of the wave. You might say that's the birth of my life when I'm born. Right? And then there's a definitive moment when that wave goes back into the ocean. You could say the death of that wave, right? When it stops. But he says, you know, is that wave really Kevin (52:36.287) Mm-hmm. Daniel (53:00.639) born and doesn't really die? Well, in some ways, yeah, but in some ways not, right? Because what happens? The water that made up that wave, it's just going back into the ocean again, right? I mean, the water that made that up has not gone. It has not disappeared. You know, it's just gone back into the ocean. And I love that image. And he talks about that as a way of kind of the impermanence, both of birth and of death, kind of the illusion, both of birth and of death. And in a way, that's not Kevin (53:09.708) Mm-hmm. Daniel (53:28.883) really good to think about in terms of comforting for grief for all people. But in a way that's kind of what I mean, games can kind of do that too, right? That you play this game, you play this system and there are permanent changes in this game, your rook takes my bishop and everything. But then what do you do? You put it back in the box, you put the box back on the shelf. And at some point in the future, you're going to take the box back out again and you're going to play it again. And there's my bishop again and there's the rook again. And, you know, and it can kind of be this model of Kevin (53:49.41) Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. Daniel (53:57.023) both permanence and impermanence in a way. I don't know. Does any of that make sense or what are your reflections? Kevin (53:59.15) Mm-hmm. No, no, it does, it does. I mean, if we find connections between games and human life, and if God created the world as partly as a game, which is what Moltmann suggests, and others, you know, have played, you know, toyed with that idea, then maybe we're playing various games in Daniel (54:19.755) Mm-hmm. Daniel (54:23.743) Yeah. Kevin (54:28.87) is the great, you know, game master and yeah there is hope for a game beyond death, yes, if life is a series of games. So no, it does make sense. And did you know that Augustine talked about God compared to the ocean as well? Saint Augustine. Yeah, he has a great bit where he says when we talk about God it's kind of like a child who's collected a pail of seawater and talking about that seawater. Daniel (54:36.351) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (54:47.411) No, really. Kevin (54:57.474) It's like we can look at, I mean talk about it, but the truth is whatever we know and see of God, God is actually this, you know, vista of just water to the horizon. Yeah, it's a nice, I love it. That's why Augustine's just, he's got his problems, but man, when he crackles, the dude crackles. Daniel (54:58.207) That's so good. Daniel (55:07.903) That's so good. That's so good. Sure, sure. Did you know there were Buddhist missionaries to the Middle East before the time of Jesus? Kevin (55:23.678) I've heard this, yes. I've heard it is. Yeah, we don't usually think of. Daniel (55:25.055) I... is it a little apocryphal? I don't... maybe it's not established. Anyway. Kevin (55:29.33) I don't know, but I mean it's theorized that it certainly was spreading and Buddhism, we don't think of it as a missionary religion, but it really is. That's why it spread so many places. They definitely were sending missionaries. That's how it got to China and Japan and Taiwan and everywhere. Daniel (55:38.239) Right, right, right. Daniel (55:44.424) Yeah. I just, I mean, there's no way we can know, but I just wonder when I hear those parallels between Augustine and Buddhism, or people often point out the some similarities in the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of the Buddha. It just makes you wonder, you know, are these are there some historical connections lost to time that will never really know. But anyway, yeah. Kevin (56:04.43) It's yeah loss of time is a great way to put it because we just it's hard to know because there's not enough evidence but it's certainly plausible that people were traveling and trading and talking up stuff and ideas were Ideas get brought in. I mean look at new york city. You got chinatown right beside little italy Daniel (56:12.117) Yeah. Yeah. Daniel (56:22.851) Yeah. Daniel (56:26.259) Right, right, yeah, yeah. Well, Kevin, I feel like your part of this episode has been very compelling. And I don't feel like there's anything else we can do to polish it off, but that's right. I think we should just bid our listeners and our viewers farewell and maybe wrap this one up. But... Kevin (56:36.264) Oh. Kevin (56:40.502) We have rappelled down this cliff. Daniel (56:55.051) Thank you so much. This has been a great episode. And... Kevin (56:55.598) Thank you. This was your idea. And I was like, I don't know about this, but you're right. There's a real, there's some real topics here to think about. So it's a, it's a good, good idea. This was a year. Daniel (57:03.367) Well, thanks for being willing to do it. And thank you. Well, and thank you. And thank you to our listeners and our viewers. We really appreciate you. It's an honor that you would spend a little bit of your day with us. We can't say how much we appreciate each of you. Next episode. Yep. Yep, you can sign up on Linktree. Yep. Kevin (57:13.99) That's right. We've got a newsletter. Read our newsletter because it's great. And like and subscribe and yeah, yeah. Give us a comment on, on YouTube or on Apple podcasts or the player of your choice. Next episode, we go to talk about, uh, kind of death again. Is that fair? Or mortality? Yeah. It's it's a book club episode. Daniel (57:36.107) A little bit like death, yeah. Daniel (57:40.863) Yep, yep. A book called 4000 Weeks, Time Management for Mortals. And I'm excited to get to share it. Kevin (57:46.91) Oliver Berkman, if you're listening, we liked your book. He wrote it. Yeah, it really is a good book. So thank you. Daniel (57:51.755) It was an amazing book. It was really good. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, Kevin, listeners, viewers, thanks so much. Bye-bye. Kevin (57:59.17) Goodbye.