Daniel: So, do you like board games? If you're listening to this podcast, there's a pretty good chance that you do. But are there any dangers to board gaming? I don't just mean that orange Cheetos dust on our games when somebody brings snacks. I mean, dangers to our own hearts and souls, or the hearts and souls of others. The Seven Deadly Sins of Board Gaming. On this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. Welcome everybody to Board Game Faith. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin: and my name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel: And it is so good to have you with us today. Thank you for tuning into this little podcast. And Kevin, it is great to see you. How are you doing? Kevin: I'm pretty peachy, thanks, yeah. Pretty Daniel: Good, Kevin: darn good. Daniel: good, good. I'm glad it sounds like things are going well in your world. And Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: in, good, good. I'm glad to hear it. Kevin: Yeah, how about you? How are you? Daniel: Yeah, we're doing we're doing well too. Thank you. In our corner of the world it is it's starting to get cooler and that's really nice. Like the cooler breezes it's easier to mow the yard and walk the dogs and things like that. Daniel: Um, the, um, so it's, um, so the seven deadly sins of gaming, the seven Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: deadly sins of gaming, um, the, um, so I guess maybe to start the conversation, we talked a little bit beforehand. I wonder, it might be helpful to talk about what do we mean by sin? Cause sin can be a kind of a off-putting subject to some people. Um, Kevin: Yeah, see Daniel: maybe Kevin: ya. Daniel: because of religious trauma or just for a variety of reasons. So... I mean, Kevin, when you think of sin or what, I mean, especially in the context of today when we're talking about the sins, what is your thought on this? What do you have in mind when we use this band of this world, this word around it? Kevin: Sin is like guilt and stuff on the front page of the newspaper type thing. If you're holding a physical newspaper, yeah, it's kind of the saucy, exciting things. Daniel: Mmm, mmm, Kevin: Things that people Daniel: that's Kevin: feel Daniel: sick. Kevin: good. And of course, it's been a moving target. It depends on the culture and the eye of the beholder at times. So, I mean, Daniel: Right, Kevin: we've all agreed Daniel: right. Kevin: that murder is wrong. I mean, every Daniel: Right. Kevin: culture is clearly harming a child. But there are other things, you know, questionable. This country, for example, banned alcohol for a time period in prohibition. And Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: so, yeah, some of these Daniel: yeah. Kevin: things have been changed, have changed over time. Daniel: Yeah, good. Kevin: Yeah, what do you think? Daniel: Yeah, no, I love that observation that it is kind of a moving target as much as we might like to think in our particular place in history that it's not. It really so often is. I think for me, a definition that has been helpful, that has made sense to me is... That sin is kind of the creation of suffering, you know, creating suffering for other people or for oneself, you know, it's, it's kind of adding to the suffering of the world, the net sum of suffering. Um, so I think that's one kind of way I think about it. Um, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: um, you know, in the Judeo-Christian traditions, um, as I understand it, you probably know this better than I do, but you know, the word that we often translate to sin in the, in the Jewish and Christian Bibles is, is kind of literally like missing the mark, kind of like a, like an archery term, you know, like you're, you're shooting for a target, but you don't quite miss, but you don't quite hit it, right? So you miss the mark a little bit. And so Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I find that an appealing idea too. You know, it's not so much the sense of. core depravity and hopelessness, but just, I kind of missed the mark on that. Or something Kevin: Bright. Daniel: like that. So all which I mean, I don't know. All just to say, yeah, so I just, if you're listening to this and kind of feel a bit put off by the term, please know we're not meeting it in a kind of judgy way. Kevin: Yeah, it has to be thought of in a very broad sense or Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: you can Daniel: yeah. Kevin: use a different word if that helps you So if you want to avoid that word if that word has gotten laden with ideas And so it is both actions and it I do have some sympathy that there is a certain bitterness to the human will that we do tend towards feelings of shame or Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: We Daniel: yeah. Kevin: do act out of fight and flight or we act Daniel: Yep. Kevin: out of you know We're more likely kids are far quicker to take things from each other than they are to share I mean, i'm Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: sorry y'all kids are not They are not moral paragons if you've ever had a toddler. So yeah, there's something in us that does lead towards being nonchalantly destructive Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: and being aware of that tendency and trying to balance that out with being aware of others and being aware of society and being aware of... who you are and how your fight and flight and fears can lead you to do Daniel: Yep. Kevin: dumb things really Daniel: Yep, yep. Kevin: yeah or judgy things or yeah uh so it's a deep and mysterious force Well, let's look at these seven sins that we have highlighted in board gaming. Now, there are seven deadly sins in the Christian tradition that came not in the Bible. Many people are surprised to know that's not in the Bible, the seven deadly sins. It came out of the monks in Africa, as far as we know, developed this list of seven things to avoid that led to... you know, they were partly battling with their souls and trying to lessen the power of sin, so they named seven main sins they saw, which were... can you name them, Daniel? Don't look. Daniel: The seven deadly sins are... Kevin: Number one is Kevin. Number two is Kevin. Number three Daniel: No, Kevin: is 45. Daniel: no, Kevin: Yes, Daniel: no. Kevin: no, I'm terrible. Daniel: No, there's... Okay, I'm not sure. Without looking at a sloth, Kevin: sloth, Daniel: greed... Kevin: laziness, greed, good, Daniel: gluttony, Kevin: gluttony, so Daniel: lust. Kevin: wanting to consume things, consumption, lust. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I'm having to look pride. Daniel: Pride, pride, you know, Kevin: which is Daniel: it would Kevin: sometimes Daniel: be... Kevin: thought of as the main sin in the Christian Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: tradition, Daniel: The, Kevin: pride. Daniel: the, uh, the Monarch of all sins, the pride, Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: you know, in retrospect, um, it probably would have been good if we're doing a podcast on this for me to look these up ahead of time. But, Kevin: Well, they're in our Daniel: um, Kevin: notes. They are in Daniel: yeah, Kevin: our shared Daniel: I know, Kevin: note. Daniel: but I'm trying not Kevin: But Daniel: to look, Kevin: yeah. Daniel: but they are in Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: our notes, Kevin: yeah. Daniel: but you're right. You're right. I'm Kevin: Okay. Daniel: trying not. Kevin: Another Daniel: Um, Kevin: one. Think of Scrooge. So Daniel: Um... Kevin: it's not the sin of gluttony and consumption, because Scrooge did not consume. What is his sin, Daniel? Daniel: um, greed, Kevin: Just plain old. Greed. Daniel: avarice, miserliness, Kevin: Yes. Daniel: bahumbugginess. Kevin: Miserliness. Baham-bugginess, yes. To have things and not enjoy them. Daniel: Right? Oh, that's Kevin: to Daniel: good. Kevin: simply Daniel: That's Kevin: want Daniel: good. Kevin: to possess. Like smog, right? He just slept. The dragon just slept on all the gold but never used it in The Daniel: That Kevin: Hobbit. Daniel: is good. That is good. Yeah. Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: How Kevin: And Daniel: many Kevin: the Daniel: are Kevin: last Daniel: we up to? Kevin: one? Well, then there's two more. Daniel: Okay. Kevin: 3, 4, Daniel: Double dipping. Kevin: yeah. I'm Daniel: Like with avocado, Kevin: not going Daniel: like with Kevin: to do Daniel: guacamole Kevin: anything. Like salsa, Daniel: or something. Yeah, Kevin: picante, Daniel: like double, double dipping. Kevin: pico de gallo. Yeah. I don't believe Daniel: Oh, Kevin: in germs. Daniel: gee. Kevin: I'm totally going to double dip. As long Daniel: It's Kevin: as I'm Daniel: a conspiracy. Kevin: not sick. Daniel: It's a, Kevin: I don't see Daniel: yeah. Kevin: them. Never believed in them. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: I think it's Daniel: yeah, Kevin: bad air. That's what Daniel: yeah. Kevin: makes you sick, personally. This one involves, like, let's say, de-fenestration. Which one would involve de-fenestration? Daniel: Violence? Kevin: Yeah, violence or even wrath, I think is largely... Daniel: wrath. Kevin: Strangely, violence is not one of them. Probably the monks were not... They'd already... They're probably already pacifist to some degree. So it was Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: more about Daniel: Interesting. Kevin: anger and wrath. I'm guessing, I don't know. There were Daniel: That is Kevin: warrior Daniel: everything. Kevin: monks in the Middle Ages, which is very awesome. Daniel: Yeah, and Kevin: Crusader Daniel: violence is Kevin: Monks. Daniel: one of the big sins of the Bible that we often gloss over today. Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: But you know, anyway, but yes, that's going Kevin: And Daniel: down Kevin: Dante Daniel: another rabbit hole. Kevin: puts it in one of his levels of hell, but it's not one of the seven deadly sins, violence. Daniel: Okay. Kevin: But Daniel: And then Kevin: it Daniel: what's Kevin: is Daniel: this? Kevin: wrath. Daniel: The seventh one. Kevin: People turn green with it, and it's not via photosynthesis. Daniel: Um... Envy. Kevin: that has four letters, yes, envy. Daniel: envy. Kevin: Why do we Daniel: I was... Kevin: say green with envy? Daniel: we need to... we should look that up. I don't know. Kevin: Yeah, I don't know why. And that's another big one is wanting what other people have. Coveting, we might also say. Daniel: Yeah. I like it. So I was, I was thinking maybe like borrowing your neighbor's wifi was on there, but it doesn't sound like that's not one of them. Kevin: Yeah, I guess I'd fall under lust. Daniel: Okay. Kevin: But if you're borrowing and you're like, then maybe it's okay. I was kidding. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Ha ha ha. Daniel: I don't know either. All right. So those are the classic seven deadly sins, right? Kevin: right? Daniel: So what, so, so what, what is our spin on these with it, with gaming and there's a seven deadly sins of gaming. Kevin: numero uno, the first one, Daniel. Daniel: Yeah, what is it Kevin? Kevin: The sin that tempts us is that it's all about winning. Daniel: It's Kevin: Which Daniel: all about Kevin: is kind Daniel: winning. Kevin: of ironic because the point of a game is to win, like win conditions, right? But, and it's good to say that the seven deadly sins, none of them. They have elements that are good, like you should have pride in what you do, right? Pride's not inherently wrong, it's having too much of it, I think, is the problem. It becomes consuming. So, and the same thing with, say, anger, like wrath. There is a place for anger in your life that's healthy. Like you're mad about environment or you're mad, you know, you're upset about injustice, for example. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: And Jesus got angry, He cursed the fig tree. He got frustrated at disciples, he kind of yelled at a worthless generation and stuff when he got fed up with people. Daniel: turned over tables, yeah. Kevin: Turned over tables, yeah. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So there Daniel: yeah, Kevin: is, so Daniel: yeah. Kevin: it's not that none, it's not that these things are completely toxic. It's that at a certain level it becomes toxic. So when the winning is so toxic that, as you put in your note there, it's ontological and not functional. But I don't know what that means, Daniel. Can you tell me what that means? I know it's true. I think Daniel: I was hoping Kevin: it's German. Daniel: you wouldn't ask, Kevin: Good, Daniel: because Kevin: good. Daniel: those are just words I found on the internet that I don't know. So I guess what kind of thing about that when I say that winning becomes the ontological end versus the functional end of a game. So the ontological deals with ontology with this is kind of the philosophy of being, you know, like, why do we exist? Why does something exist? Why do we exist? It's this, and I kind of use that term loosely, I guess, but when I say if we see winning as the ontological end of gaming, just what that means is, I mean, it's like it's what we exist to do, right? It's like Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: it's our core, it's the primary thing that will give us a sense of worth or value in this game. It's if we win, we have value, if we don't, we're worthless, you know? Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: And versus a functional end to seeing winning as a functional end, which is more like, as you said, you know, I have to want to win in order for this game to work. But my value as a human being is totally independent of whether I win this game or not, right? And I think we've talked about different analogies on this show before, but in this podcast before, but this idea of kind of like the... the framing of a house, you know, like the studs and two by fours and the walls of a house, you know, you need to have framing and studs and two by fours for a house to exist, for it to stand up, for it to work. But that's not the point of a house, right? The point of a house isn't the framing, you know, it's, or like the engine of a car, you know, you have to have the engine of the car for the car to work, but it's not the point of the car. And that's the same. with winning in a game. You know, you have to have Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: as Kevin: it's so Daniel: a goal Kevin: good, you're right. Daniel: that you win Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: in order for the game to work, but that's not the point of the game, yeah. Kevin: Mm-hmm. The point of the game is to, I guess, play the game. Or, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: no, I guess the point of that game itself is to win, but the point of gaming the life of playing games is to have probably really good experiences. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Which, Daniel: yeah. Kevin: I love this from the shut up and sit down how to teach. a game. I think it came out, or maybe it's on the comments. Somebody said, if you teach a game, make sure you lose. And I just love that idea that Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: your goal when you teach the game and give people their first experience is not to trounce them or prove that you can win. You probably could win. You have more experience with the game. Your goal is for them to have a good time. And by throwing it when the first time you play, that's a good thing. Now, should you do it every time? No, you should provide challenges. But... but letting people have a good experience and not get whomped by a game ninja, that's not fun. Daniel: Yeah, that's a really good point. I like that. Kevin: So my dad's really Daniel: I Kevin: good Daniel: like Kevin: at Daniel: that. Kevin: pool. He would play like billiards. He would play with his non-dominant hand to try to make it more fun because he couldn't help but make certain shots. So, you know, Daniel: Interesting, Kevin: trying to give yourself Daniel: interesting. Kevin: what, you know, what in golf and other things they refer to as a handicap. So Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: saying I'm gonna take some, I'm gonna take some negative points or negative distance to make it more fair. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: So it's not about winning, it's about an experience. Daniel: That reminds me of a couple of things. I, you know, I've talked offline of about search for Planet X, a really great Kevin: Uh huh. Daniel: logic deduction board game that we're enjoying. What I love, one of the things I love about that is that you can set the difficulty level separately for each player in it. You know, it's kind of like you're saying, so Kevin: I didn't Daniel: like, Kevin: realize Daniel: you know, if you, Kevin: that. Daniel: if you've played it before and you're teaching it, you can really dial up the difficulty level Kevin: That's Daniel: for yourself, Kevin: so genius. Daniel: but really dial it down if you're playing with a beginner, for them, and so it's two separate, Kevin: Right. Daniel: I love that. I love that, such a great idea. And the other thing it makes me think of is also offline, you know, I've talked about maybe doing a book club discussion of games agency as art Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: book by CT Nguyen, who's a philosophy professor out in Utah. And what he says in there, which I love is the sense that games get us to care about the means more than the ends. And like they're training, they train us to care more about the means than the ends. And it's just because exactly what we're talking about, that the rest, most of the time in life, we're taught to care more about the ends than the means. You know, we're taught to win, right? And, but if we, if that's the attitude we bring to gaming, that the most important thing is to win, no matter what the means, it's gonna be a horrible game, right? What makes a game a game is the means to get to the end, right? So Kevin: Right. Daniel: you care more about the means than the end and the actual winning. Kevin: I love that. I love it. Yeah. And it sucks to lose a lot. I mean, I don't mind losing, but if you lose every time, that is very frustrating. But then the question is, why are you losing? And that can be an opportunity to realize, you're probably not playing the game well. And Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: so what are you doing wrong? So trying to take a rational approach to, okay, I know one of my pitfalls is, I like just doing things because they seem cool. Like, I'm gonna go over here and take this talisman because that would be awesome. But that may not win me the game. So if you're always losing, you're probably doing something besides focusing on winning. And if you don't mind losing, that's fine, go for it. But if you want to win, you may have to do a little studying and realize, OK, what steps do I need to take to fulfill the win conditions as quickly as possible? Daniel: Hmm, yeah. Kevin: Right, so it can be an opportunity, but it can be frustrating. And that's also where you can just change the game up or play something silly or leave that game alone. And some games, some people are better at than others. I've also observed that. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: Right? Some games Daniel: yeah. Kevin: bring out certain, you know, some people can remember, kind of count cards almost naturally. Daniel: Yup, Kevin: And Daniel: yup. Kevin: they're going to be good at those types of games. Some people are good at taking risks. They don't mind a, you know, you may win or lose on one role. And that person may win Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: because Daniel: yeah. Kevin: they're risk taker. Daniel: Right, right. Depends on how a person's wired, what their wiring is and Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: yeah, what their gifts Kevin: so Daniel: are and what their Kevin: change Daniel: interest is. Kevin: the game. If you're Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: losing a lot or you're winning a lot, try a different game, see how that goes. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Trick taking, you know, different types of games, dice based, luck based. Yeah, yeah. What's the number two? Second Sin. Daniel: Number two, number one was Kevin: That's Daniel: it's Kevin: a big Daniel: all about Kevin: one, Daniel. Daniel: winning. Number two is it's Kevin: Yep. Daniel: all about owning. It's all about owning. And I'm really bad at this. Kevin: I love honing games, Daniel. Daniel: I do too, I do too. You know, I think it's this sense of, I guess for me, what I think about, and all of these sins I'm kind of seeing primarily through the lens of myself, Kevin: It's the only lens you got, bruh. Daniel: Right, that's exactly right. That's Kevin: Let's Daniel: exactly Kevin: be honest. Daniel: right. But you know, when I see, if I see my role as somebody who plays games or plays or anything, or really my role in anywhere in life, if I see my role primarily as a consumer, like my job here is to consume things, whether it's a game or whatever, that really robs me of. the really good stuff in life, you know, the Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: joy and delight and gratitude for what's right in front of me. What it makes me think of is, I may have mentioned before Thich Nhat Hanh, he just passed away, actually was a Buddhist monk who had a great respect for Christianity and other faith traditions. But he... He talked about a cup of tea, right? Like a cup of, and so there are a couple approaches to a cup of tea. One, you could have a cup of tea and you could just drink it down, right? And you've got your tea and you move on, right? That's kind of very consumption-based, right? Or he said, you could breathe and pause and see the universe in the cup of tea, right? Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: You could see the sunlight that traveled 93 million miles to grow these tea leaves, you know? And you could see... the rain that has circled the earth for eons endlessly that had watered the tea leaves. And you could see the people's hands who picked it and then the, you know, or the machines that picked it and then the process and then the processes that brought it to where you are and the drawing. And just feel immense gratitude for that. And so that's kind of what I, that's the model I have in my mind to think about Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: games. You know, when we see this game, we could just one more thing to consume and move on or to really delight in and kind of. feel gratitude Kevin: or Daniel: for Kevin: savor Daniel: the wonder Kevin: it. Daniel: of Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: it. Yeah. Kevin: Yeah, I think that's great. I have a different relationship to things, and it's not just about how many things you have, because you're not going to be able to take them when you die. Like, you can't take anything with you, and you're going to put your things somewhere, and nobody needs to be renting storage space long term. And you don't want your games in there anyway, because they're going to get all moldy and yucky. Unless it's climate controlled, which I wonder what this costs. That must be really expensive. Anyway, this is not a cheap hobby, collecting board games. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: come to realize no hobby is cheap. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: Fishing, whatever, you name it, once you go deep into it, car detailing, you start buying all this stuff, you can spend a lot of money based on what that guy was saying in terms of chemicals and bottles and rags and rights. So many things will take you down a rabbit hole. So the question becomes... Is it the rabbit hole that works for you and your budget and your time? And is it consuming your life or is it something that brings you joy? And those are harder questions and it depends on people on what they want to do. But yeah, it's tricky. There's something in us that just wants to collect. I guess it's our bird DNA because we evolved, I think, from birds and dinosaurs, I think. Is that right? Daniel: I think birds Kevin: I think. Daniel: and dribbles. Kevin: And you're... .. Shiny things and digging. Daniel: birds and dinosaurs and Kevin: I know, I personally love to dig in the backyard. Daniel: gerbils. I do give me give me a sunflower seed and I'm happy all day. I am happy all day and a little exercise Kevin: I know when Daniel: wheel. Kevin: I Daniel: That's Kevin: visited you that time you said you're gonna take a nap and then you rolled into this little ball and Daniel: it's true. Kevin: got in some cedar shavings. I was like, wow, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: you are out. You were so tired. It was so Daniel: it Kevin: cute. Daniel: was, I just filled up on sunflower seeds. Yeah, it was, I was, I had a. Kevin: But yeah, the birds, I mean, we do like to possess things and take them, but the truth is hey, if someone else has a great game and I can play it with them, why would I buy it? Like there's something Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: in me that's like, oh, I should buy that too, it's a great game. But no, maybe you don't have to. So I try to think in terms of what games will fit my collection, what kind of games do I really like, what games can I get rid of in some Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: way, either as a gift or... Some system our local one of the local board game stores. I mean, it's 50 minutes away because i'm rural but They have a thing neat bit where you can sell games at the store You can set the price they take a cut and you only get the amount in Store credit, but it's still pretty awesome Daniel: Yeah, that is nice. I like that. Kevin: And I've sold several games and it does lead you buying other games, but if you're maybe going to buy them anyway, you're freeing up space. There's games you don't want anymore. So it becomes a bit more of an ebb and flow versus a constant collection. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: I would add that just like winning, owning is not bad. Daniel: Right, Kevin: Like the Daniel: right. Kevin: buying and delighting in a game that you have that brings you pleasure is great. But buying something that you didn't really want, or you bought on impulse, or because you did it as a type of retail therapy, or buying it out of envy, or whatever, or fear of missing out, those are not reasons to buy a game. Daniel: Right, right. No, that's an Kevin: But Daniel: excellent Kevin: if you Daniel: point. Kevin: genuinely can afford it, and it's not on credit card credit, I mean, the credit card's okay, but you're not carrying a balance. So you're not going into debt for this, but you can afford it, and you really want it. I mean, that's awesome. The burp when you open the box and getting Daniel: Oh, Kevin: it Daniel: I Kevin: out, Daniel: know, Kevin: I mean, that's Daniel: I know, Kevin: so Daniel: I Kevin: great. Daniel: know, I know, Kevin: But Daniel: I know. Kevin: you can't have it every day. You've gotta balance out how often you get a new game. But getting a new game is a real thrill. Daniel: It is, it is. Yeah. No, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: I, that's a great point. Yeah. I mean, I, I'd be the biggest hypocrite in the world if I, or one of them, if I, if I said, yeah, don't, don't own games. If you, I mean, I've, I've got a fair sized collection, just, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: you know, a couple of rooms from where I'm recording this. And so, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's this sense of, as you've said so well, Kevin, just, you know, balance and moderation and thinking about why we're doing what we're doing. And we're not saying that this, that's inherently. you know, wrong or about, but it's just, it's, but where we're, you know, where we seek that balance and that moderation. You know, you're talking about kind of ways of limiting your collection in that local game store. I love that. It reminds me of a couple of systems I've heard from content creators online about how they limit their collections. One of them is you just decide on what number of Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: games you think is sufficient for a collection. And you just have this personal rule that once you set that number, if you buy anything else, you have to sell a game. So you just maintain that number, right? So one in, one out. Kevin: I like Daniel: And Kevin: it. Daniel: then, and the other one is, I think Jamie Stegmaier talked about this. He looks at his collection, and if he hasn't played something in a year, he sells it. You know, something like that. Just kind of the sense Kevin: Really. Daniel: of, yeah, or maybe it's two years, but something like that, yeah. Kevin: Wow. Daniel: He says like every year he reviews it and sells it if he hasn't played it in a year. Kevin: interesting. Daniel: So anyway, Kevin: That's Daniel: yeah. Kevin: brutal. I don't know if I could go quite that harsh, but I respect it. And if it works for him, it doesn't mean you take that model. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I love Marie Kondo, her tidying up book and even that Daniel: Oh Kevin: show. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: And so that idea of does it spark joy? And if your first thought Daniel: Hmm Kevin: about something you have is it brings you joy, great, keep it. But if you're like, I don't know, you feel guilty or you're afraid, then you probably should get rid of it. If it's not true joy as your first immediate gut response, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: then it probably is something that you need to find a new home for. And that could mean selling it or I think. I saw an Instagram Ali Carrar, which is Carrar2k, K-A-R-A-R Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: number 2k on Instagram, organized there in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia a board game swap meet. So if you can organize, you know some people have a big swap meet where people can trade games. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: And that Daniel: yeah, Kevin: would be awesome. These are Daniel: yeah. Kevin: games I don't want, these are some games I want, they're all used, and you Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: can walk around. I don't know how he did it. It'd be interesting to know how he actually... Was it Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: one Daniel: I Kevin: to Daniel: wonder. Kevin: one? I mean, you Daniel: I wonder. Kevin: can't do one to one because some games have just inherently more value than others. But yeah, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: it feels good to get rid of games you don't want. And the truth Daniel: It does. Kevin: is you probably can buy it down the road, somehow, someway. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: It may cost you, you know, but down the road you may have more money. So Daniel: That's right. No, Kevin: you can Daniel: that's right. Kevin: probably buy it again or find it somewhere, especially with eBay type online merchandising. Daniel: Well, Kevin, what is number three? What is the third deadly sin of Kevin: The Daniel: gaming? Kevin: third is it's always about you being right, which is kind Daniel: It's about Kevin: of a variation Daniel: being right. Kevin: on pride, which is maybe assuming that everyone should play games, Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: especially games you like, and that Daniel: yeah. Kevin: your list is better than others. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: Right, so what you like and your kinds of games really are the best. So that's also kind of ontological, right? That it's somehow your way or the highway. Daniel: It is, Kevin: not Daniel: yeah. Kevin: respecting other approaches it does seem to me that everyone should have some element of play in their lives but that may not manifest in board games it could be in sports or being playful about chores or playing with children, right? Daniel: Yeah, yeah, no, I, yeah, I, I agree. I think, I think play is an essential part of being human and, and as part of God's dream for the human experience for every, every person on earth. But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone has to play board games, sit around Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and play and play brass Birmingham. You know, that that's, that Kevin: Right. Daniel: that's that for some people, play can mean, yeah, right, can mean music or art or camping or, you know, all sorts of things. I think it, but you're right that board gaming can feed that tendency. I know I have it myself and I think we all do, but I certainly know it myself too, to kind of justify myself and justify my sense of value and self-worth by thinking about humanity in terms of like outsiders and insiders, like excluding some and including others, right, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: you know, and we do that all the time. And, and, and I think, you know, a lot of the great mystics of various religious traditions often point to that as, as one of the core. sources of sin and brokenness in the world. You know, this illusion we like to foster and nurture that we're all isolated, we're all separated from each other. I'm not connected to you, you're not connected to me, or I might Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: have these peeps that are connected to me, that everyone who likes Brass Birmingham or whatever, everyone who likes Euro games, everyone who likes da-da-da-da-da. And, but we really don't have much of a connection to you, right, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and that illusion of separateness. is ultimately behind so much of the suffering in the world, right, instead of seeing that we're all connected and all part of each other and really not that different from each other at all. Kevin: Right. Daniel: I Kevin: At Daniel: don't Kevin: our Daniel: know. Kevin: core we're not different, we're all human. We do have different interests, we do have different tribes, and that's okay, like we can understand that there is the tribe of Ameritrash, and the tribe of Euro, and the tribe of, you know... white dudes who love sci-fi and sprawling board game. You know, like I've totally fall for all that stuff. And that's my tribe and that's okay, but there are other tribes. I have to recognize that there are other types of people or types of gamers that really like different types of things. And that's cool. It's not all about me being Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: right. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: Number four. What you got, Daniel? Daniel: Number four is it's all about being in control. It's all about being in control. And, and, um, I think this is something we see, especially in games around, um, cooperative games that, um, but you can see in other ways as well, but the danger of cooperative games and for our listeners who aren't familiar, there's some kind of board games called cooperative games where you're trying to beat the game together as a team versus like pandemic, you know, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: um, You know, they often say the danger of cooperative games is what they call the alpha player, right? The person who, who says, okay, now here's what we're going to do this round. You, Kevin: Right. Daniel: Billy, Kevin: They're Daniel: you're Kevin: the Daniel: going Kevin: alpha Daniel: to do Kevin: dog, Daniel: this Kevin: I think, Daniel: and you, Kevin: is the Daniel: Jane, Kevin: reference. Daniel: you're going Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: to do this and yeah. And, and, uh, and, and really kind of, um, taking away a sense of agency and control from other people in the playing of the game, uh, because we don't want to lose the game. And so for the sake of. Again, going back to winning, we feel like we have to be in control. Well, and honestly, it also, it also, it means that I have the, that I have the belief that I understand the game better than other people, you know, that it's Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: kind of, it's kind of this kind of arrogance. And I mean, sometimes if, if the other person's just learning, obviously, you know, it better than they do. But, but anyway, that sense of controlling. the choices of others and not giving them agency. Kevin: Yeah. And this Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: reminds Daniel: any thoughts? Kevin: me of the first one. Yeah, it can link up with the first one, which is it's all about winning. And you're the only person who knows how to win. Instead of, okay, the goal is to win, but the real goal is to have a great experience. And that Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: means recognizing the opinions and agency of others. And a lot of games have turns where people get to decide the action. to even co-op. So you may work as a team, but on Daniel's turn, he decides, and you have to respect, Daniel's decided to do this. That is a legitimate move. That's what he is going to do. So you have to respect his choice. Now I have, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: when my youngest was younger, occasionally he would really just do zany things just for fun. Like he kind of knew he was wrecking the game. He was smart enough to know he was wrecking it. He just wanted to do it to see what would happen. That Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: could be a little frustrating, and I guess there he's not really trying to win, so there is always that problem of someone intentionally, for whatever reason, throwing a monkey wrench in the machine of the game. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: But barring that, yeah, you have to respect other people's agency, and you have to have the real goal of having a great gaming experience, even though Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: the goal is also to win. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: and it's not all about you and it's not always about winning. In fact, Daniel: Right. Kevin: that's why I love the pandemic legacy games, because if you lose, you get to try again, or they'll give you something to help you win Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: next time. Daniel: yeah, Kevin: So Daniel: yeah. Kevin: you just keep moving forward. And yeah, there's a final score, I think, and so you did. But does anyone remember? I don't remember. I've played all of them and I don't remember how well we did. I just remember Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: having a really, really awesome time Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: in all Daniel: yeah. Kevin: of them. Daniel: That's a great system and a great philosophy, right? Because it's a very obvious reflection of the point that winning isn't the point, right? Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: That it's moving forward is the point and that the journey Kevin: You know, Daniel: is the point. Kevin: maybe that's real gift of legacy games, that because it can change the actual game system, it really does make it more of a process and a journey Daniel: Mmm. Yeah, Kevin: versus Daniel: that's Kevin: a, Daniel: a nice Kevin: you know, there is a final score and you can try to beat it, a lot of them, but. Daniel: I like that. That's a good Kevin: But Daniel: point. Kevin: yeah, it does sort of self-adjust on a certain level. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Because Daniel: yeah, Kevin: it's taking Daniel: I like that. Kevin: into account the prior games you've played Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: and adjusting the system. So yeah. Daniel: Well, what's what is so that was number four. It's all about being in control. Kevin, what is Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: the fifth, the fifth? Oh, I, Kevin: I play the fifth. Daniel: I can't, I can't say that word. What is number five? Number five. Kevin: Number five, this is the tyranny of the self, my friends. It's all about you, which we've kind of hinted at in some of the other ones, and you could link this up to the basic concern that sin is related to pride, and it's all about you and your what you like and who you are, but your goal of putting games over people. or showing that you're the smartest person in the room, which a pastor friend of mine used to complain about with church committees, that there are just some people on church committees that have to show they're the smartest person in the room. Side note, they usually aren't. Because the smartest person in the room doesn't have to prove anything. Like Warren Buffett doesn't have to show you he's good with stock, right? He has nothing Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: to prove. Daniel: yeah, yep, Kevin: But the Daniel: yep. Kevin: guy that's desperately trying to prove how good he is with the stock market. probably is right. So it's someone who puts themselves and their agenda over the gaming experience, shows their knowledge, shows their games, wants you to be impressed with their collection. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Yeah, what would you add to that? Daniel: Yeah, no, I just, I agree. Yeah, that you make it more about yourself than other people. I totally agree. It reminds me of another idea we see across various religions. I'm thinking of Buddhism and Christianity specifically, but I'm sure it shows up in other faith traditions as well. This idea of the dangers of valuing principles over people. And you know it's true because they both start with the same letter. It's alliterative. It's the ultimate value of truth. But valuing principles over people, you know, so often creates suffering, right? And it's this Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: idea that, you know, at the end of the day, what are you going to care about? Are you going to care about... I stayed true to my Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: whatever my ideology is, or I really cared about human beings. Kevin: Right. Daniel: What's more important, ideology Kevin: You know Daniel: or human beings? It reminds me of that, yeah. Kevin: Yeah, absolutely and Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: we are having a kind of discussion about an upcoming episode about uh board game manuals Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: This reminds Daniel: yeah. Kevin: me of the issue of being a rules lawyer, which Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I have a tendency to do I do want to play it right. I want to look it up. It bothers me if I don't know I don't know if Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: all that's a sin, it's just more of a desire to do things correctly. But Daniel: Right. Kevin: it would be a sin if I used that principle constantly to make other people unhappy because I'm digging through a rule book. So some Daniel: Right. Kevin: people have this idea that once you start the game you don't ever look at the rule book again. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: I could never do that, but the point is you're honoring other people's time and energy and you're not just watching them melt as you try to dig through. Because Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: you know Daniel: yeah. Kevin: it's on page three, you just read it. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: And you remember it was in red text, but you can't find it. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: And that just Daniel: yeah, Kevin: crushes people. So maybe you get Daniel: yeah. Kevin: the rules wrong. Well, at least you had a good gaming experience. Daniel: Right, right. That's a great example. Kevin: Yeah, yeah, Daniel: Chris, Kevin: putting Daniel: Kristen, Kevin: principles Daniel: my wife Kevin: over Daniel: caught Kevin: people. Daniel: me on this. The other day, I was I found myself just doing exactly what you're saying, you know, I was I was I was caring more about the rules at a moment, a particular point Kevin: All Daniel: where Kevin: right. Daniel: I should have been caring more about the people around the table in a game. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: And Kevin: that's Daniel: yeah, Kevin: tough. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: But it's not a bad thing. It is good to have the desire to play it correctly. And if you and I were playing, part of it's who's at the table. We would just be like, oh yeah, we gotta look it up. But some other Daniel: Exactly. Kevin: people, Jenny's gonna start looking at the butterfly out the window and lose interest. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: And that's fine, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: that's her. Daniel: yeah, yeah. Kevin: And so if I want her to play, I've gotta not be nose deep into a. of beat up manual. Daniel: Yep. Kevin: Yeah. It's tough, it's tough. Daniel: Well, what is number six, Kevin? What's the sixth Kevin: Number six, Daniel: deadly sin? Kevin: people, this is a bit of a curveball maybe? Is Daniel: I like Kevin: that, Daniel: curveballs. Kevin: you like curveballs? Some Daniel: I Kevin: people Daniel: plus. Kevin: don't take gaming seriously enough. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: So a lot of what we said is that we take gaming too seriously. We misplace Daniel: Right. Kevin: where gaming belongs in your life. But this one is people not taking it seriously enough. And Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: how does that play out, Daniel? Daniel: Well, I mean, and yeah, this was an idea that you came up with and I really think it's genius. Thank you, I wouldn't have thought about it, but it brings to my mind prior discussions we've had on this show about the magic circle, right? Like for a game to work, we all have to have this unspoken agreement that we're going to enter this magic circle for this time period, you know? Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Where the rest of the, and what I hear in this, that at least in number six, is the unspoken refusal to do that, right? The unwillingness to enter the magic circle. Kevin: right. Daniel: That it's, yeah, yeah. And I've been guilty of this a lot, but you know, it's like, you know, maybe I'm playing the game, but I'm looking at my phone the whole time, right? And then, Kevin: Right. Daniel: and I'm not respecting the other players are on the table because of that. I'm not respecting the magic circle. I'm not being in the magic circle. Is that kind of what you have in mind when you suggested Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: this Kevin: a little Daniel: or Kevin: bit. Daniel: yeah? Kevin: It's it's and I guess I'm going I'm thinking too as we started the episode we um This is really the people listening to this podcast episode are probably gamers and this is not an issue We know to not eat cheetos at the table. I think we would generally respect most people's Board game we're not gonna let our toddler lick the cards, etc. So probably most of us get it So this is the sin that maybe non-gamers would commit. Although we can be guilty of this too, like you're saying, we can be distracted or maybe not really wanting to play. Part of it too for us is how do we communicate our expectations to non-gamers. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: So you've got cousin Louie, you know the guy, Daniel: I know Kevin: lives Daniel: cousin Kevin: behind Daniel: Louie, yeah. Kevin: Al's fish shack out on... where the flour mill used to be. Now they moved it, but it's where it used to be. That's where cousin Louie lives. Daniel: I know, right, right. You know, Kevin: You Daniel: if Kevin: know, Daniel: you're looking Kevin: right. Daniel: for Kevin: So Daniel: a Kevin: don't Daniel: good... Kevin: go to the new one, the old one, Daniel: No, Kevin: which Daniel: right. Kevin: is now, right. So that's where cousin Louie, so cousin Louie is like, yeah, I'll try that. Well, you can tell he's not played modern board games. He's not handled a $120 board game that you've bought and that you love dearly. So how do you communicate that to him to help him avoid Daniel: Right. Eating a Big Mac over Kevin: damaging Daniel: the, Kevin: something Daniel: over the, Kevin: that's gonna upset you, right? I guess it Daniel: right. Kevin: would be an Daniel: Right. Kevin: unintentional sin. He's not thinking. And most people would probably pick up like, oh, this looks expensive, but... And not that every game's expensive, but let's just say at worst case scenario, it's a very nice prestige game. How do you communicate to them your expectations in terms of not damaging it, but also being serious about trying to play? Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: So Daniel: That Kevin: sometimes, Daniel: is hard to do. Kevin: it's hard, it's hard. How do you communicate Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: that honestly and kindly? And I know sometimes Jenny was like, yeah, I'll play a game. And I have to ask her like, do you really mean that? Or are you just like saying that's fine? Because I don't want to get it out and we start playing and then you get tired, right? Or you realize you didn't really want to play. Like, are you serious about this or not? Because sometimes, Daniel: So part of that, Kevin: yeah, sometimes like Daniel: go Kevin: one of Daniel: ahead. Kevin: the kids will want to play and she'll play to go along. but she's on her phone and I'm like, I'd rather you not play. So if you wanna play, play. If you don't, we won't play or I'll put it up because I'm a grump. Sorry, I interrupted you. Daniel: No, no, I was just, yeah, I mean, part of what I hear you saying is, you know, that we respect each other enough to give each other the freedom to say, no, I don't want to play, you know? Kevin: Right. Daniel: And then that's, yeah, and then that's okay, you know? That, Kevin: And clear communication. Yeah, do you want Daniel: yeah, Kevin: to play? Well, when the well Daniel: and no Kevin: maybe Daniel: is okay. Kevin: is not a good answer, right? Like yes or no. If you're in, we're going to do it with as good an attitude as we can have. Daniel: And I do struggle with the other point you're bringing up about how to communicate. differing senses of value around the game, the Kevin: Right. Daniel: physical game to people who come from different experiences and how to communicate that without sounding like a jerk. You know, Kevin: Right, right. Daniel: because I have been in games where, and it's not the case that I'm right and they're wrong, it's just different experiences where, you know, someone's Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: experience of games their whole lives has been playing this deck of Uno cards that they've had for 30 years, you know, that's very well tattered and... covered with stains and things like that. And that's what it means to play a game. And of course you can eat a hamburger and chips while you're doing that, you know? Kevin: Yeah, you can just Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: buy another Daniel: and then, Kevin: 10 bucks, you can buy another deck. Daniel: yeah, yeah. And then you bring out this game, as you said, that's like $150 or something to play. And from their experience, it is totally okay to eat hamburgers and chips around games. And how do I say, oh, please not without sounding like a real, you know, like a jerk. Kevin: Right, right. Daniel: I do struggle with that, yeah, yeah. Kevin: It is tricky. Daniel: Because that's not their experience of games, yeah. Kevin: Right, so I think the thing is you either don't bring that, you have to know your audience, so you Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: don't get yourself in that situation, or you kind of do the self, what do you say, sort of making fun of yourself. Daniel: Self deprecating, Kevin: I'm forgetting. Daniel: yeah, Kevin: Self-deprecating Daniel: like, Kevin: like I'm sorry. Daniel: oh, yeah. Kevin: I really like to keep this game is It's hard to find and I have a I've really loved this game. So if I if you don't mind I mean you can have the food just set it somewhere else and like if we'll eat and then play I Appreciate it. I'm sorry. I'm this way. So that kind Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: of self-deprecating Daniel: right, yeah. Yeah, Kevin: Sort of blame Daniel: yeah. Kevin: yourself, even though it you know, there's nothing wrong with wanting to take care of your stuff Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: but you play Daniel: yeah. Kevin: it off in a certain way. I think that's Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: fair. But part of it too is just communication, having open communication. This is what I want. Daniel: Right, Kevin: I would like Daniel: right. Kevin: to play this immersive, rambling, multi-hour game. I find this relaxing. Daniel: Right. Kevin: And then someone else is like, that sounds horrible. You're Daniel: Right. Kevin: like, well, we shouldn't play. We just Daniel: And Kevin: don't play and that is fine. I'll find Daniel: right. Kevin: someone that does find this experience relaxing. I would find playing golf horrible. You know, you're in the sun and mosquitoes and dragging this thing around and losing. Which Daniel: Everyone Kevin: strangely Daniel: owning Kevin: is more points. Like, I thought more points meant you were winning. Daniel: I think that's right, isn't Kevin: You Daniel: it? Kevin: think that's right? No, I think golf Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: goes the opposite. Daniel: Have I been playing golf wrong? Kevin: So, yeah, just Daniel: I Kevin: communicating Daniel: thought it was like, Kevin: what it is. Daniel: I thought I had this natural gift for winning, but like, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: because Kevin: or Daniel: I was getting scores in the Kevin: you thought you Daniel: thousands. Kevin: were in the Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: hide. Or the third option is, I've never tried that before. I will try this. I'll follow your lead and I will bring a good attitude to this game and we will see it through, or this game of golf. And after that, I'll decide whether it's for me or not. But I Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: will attempt to do this with a good attitude. Daniel: yeah, that's a good, that's a good approach as well. Kevin: So there is a possibility of a middle ground of it not being yes or no, but I will try with Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: the good attitude. Daniel: And yeah, Kevin: But Daniel: yeah. Kevin: yeah, and knowing your audience, like Jenny's not going to want to play a game late at night because she's sort of like a bird and when the sun goes down she gets tired. You know, Daniel: I'm kind Kevin: yeah. Daniel: of, I'm kind of with Jenny Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: on that. Kevin: so Daniel: Yeah. I understand. Kevin: there's no, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I should even bring that up. And that's fine. Daniel: No, you're right. It's, it's enough. Yeah. A big part of this is just respecting others and yourself enough just to be honest Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: about what they're feeling, what you're feeling and to not assign value on any of that. It's just, Kevin: Right. Daniel: you know, it just is what it is. And that is, that is, that Kevin: but you're Daniel: is fine. Kevin: free to communicate what you would like and Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: yeah where you are. That's awesome. Okay. The Ultimo, what you got? Daniel: Um, so number seven is, um, turning play into work, turning play into work. This is probably the most nebulous one for me. I feel like there was something there that speaks to a way that I use games and play to kind of. generate suffering in myself or others, but I'm not sure I can flesh it out much more than that, though I'll try, but this idea of turning play into work. I think I've shared maybe on our last episode, but you and I have talked about this too, Kevin, you know that, I mean, I love obviously board games, right? I love tabletop games and that's why we do this podcast. And that's why I've got the collection downstairs. And that's why we do these church groups. And that's why we have friends over and all this stuff. As part of that though, I feel like there are times when I feel this obligation. I gotta keep playing a game, right? Cause this is kind of who I am. Or a sense of guilt for not doing it. And I'm, you know, that's not right. You know, I'm not sure that that's right. Cause that's, it seems to be feeling like turning play into something that's not play anymore. Kevin: What triggers Daniel: I don't know, does Kevin: the Daniel: that Kevin: guilt? Daniel: need for that? Kevin: No, it does, it does. Unpack that level, what triggers the guilt feeling? Daniel: Um, I think two, two things that maybe are at cross purposes and come from different, different places. Um, one, because I feel like. This is an area that I want to explore and I want to develop this theology of play that you and I have been working on together. And the more I don't do that, the more it kind of defers that dream and that goal, kind of if that makes sense. But then on the other side, it's I do believe that play in whatever form it takes. is an essential part of spiritual health and mental health and emotional health. And when I don't do it, I realize that I'm not taking the necessary steps that I need to do for my own spiritual and mental and emotional health. So I think maybe that's kind of a couple of different sources of where that sense of guilt comes from. Does any of that resonate with you? Kevin: Um. Not exactly. I, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: but, but where the word guilt resonated, because at times I'll think, oh, I shouldn't have all these games. I don't even play some of these anymore. So I feel Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: guilty, which is odd because I have hammers in the basement and I don't use them but a time or two a year, but I don't feel guilty for owning them. So it's kind of funny how we get into, I guess I have more invested in the games. And so I can look now and there's games on. There's Pandemic Iberia and it's a great game and I really like it. I haven't played it in three years. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So Daniel: yeah. Kevin: part of me is like, oh, I should just, this is stupid. I should get out of this. You know, I could, I should quit buying these and quit. You know, this is, this is a stupid hobby type thing. So it, that gets me into thinking I, I think you're right that gets me into thinking about it as work instead of play. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kevin: And maybe it's okay to own these games or get rid of some of them. Or maybe I enjoy owning them just for the pleasure of owning them. Daniel: Alright. Kevin: but it should be fun. It can become work when I'm looking over Board Game Geek or I'm making lists of games I wanna get, or I'm, I don't know. I've even gotten away from that Board Game Stats app because Daniel: Really? Kevin: it made it feel like work to me. And I know Daniel: Interesting. Kevin: you love it, and lots of people Daniel: I love it. Kevin: do. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin: And so Daniel: But you'd... Kevin: that, and that's great. It's not one size fits all, but I kind of, it made it feel... I don't know, something about the idea of entering the data and looking at the data made it, for me, feel too workish. Daniel: I can see that. Yeah. Like another Kevin: Um, Daniel: report you have to fill out or another Kevin: kind Daniel: form you have to Kevin: of, Daniel: fill Kevin: yeah. Daniel: out. Yeah. Kevin: And the fact is, like, I kinda like it, and it's a little interesting, but I didn't really ever go back, and I'm too lazy to go look at the data, so it wasn't really helping me. I was only logging it for logging it. I Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: wasn't logging Daniel: yeah. Kevin: it for a larger purpose. But Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I envy the people who can say, well, the game I played the most last year is X. That's Daniel: Right, Kevin: cool. Daniel: right, right. Kevin: But I don't really wanna do that. Like, I wanna pack up the game and probably go to bed. That's just me. Daniel: Right. I mean, there's something to be said for we do these things for fun. And if we're not having fun, Kevin: That's it! Daniel: then why not do the white? Then don't do it. Right. Kevin: You're so right. It's so simple, isn't it? It's so simple. Just don't do it. But yeah, I guess we get tormented. It becomes our God almost like it can become idolatry. And so we Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: get sucked Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: in anything can be a God. And so we get sucked into idolatry and serving board games and getting consumed by them and feeling like you ought to stop by the game store or you should check a price on something and the shoulds just become overwhelming. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: Once you get used to it, there's more to life than games. So the game has to be put up. It's more to life than church. I mean, no one advocates being in a church service for 24 seven, 365 is crazy. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Even the Daniel: we Kevin: monks Daniel: tried Kevin: don't Daniel: that Kevin: do Daniel: last Kevin: that. Daniel: year. It was an abject failure. It was awful. Kevin: There was that one lady that did it, but she actually thought she was in a casino and she was fine. Like she didn't Daniel: That's, Kevin: understand Daniel: yeah, Kevin: it was church anyway. Daniel: that's right. Kevin: So Daniel: That's Kevin: she was Daniel: right. Kevin: the only Daniel: I mean, Kevin: one that actually did it. Daniel: thank goodness we installed that, you know, that casino machine in the back. I don't even know the name of it. What do you call a slots machine? Kevin: Yeah, slot machine. Daniel: The slots machine in the back. The bishop was like, no, it's not a good idea, but in that case, it panned out. It was Kevin: It was good, Daniel: good. Kevin: because your report Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: looked good. Yeah, I always wonder, it's funny. Yeah, there's more to life than games, and you've gotta realize that, and live within your budget, and be aware of all the wonderful things in this world, in this life beyond games. And I always wonder about the YouTube personalities, the board game reviewers. It's gotta be so strange that they got into this out of love of games, but now Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: it's their job. So 40, I don't know how many hours they're spending, but they're spending all this time. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: And how do you keep the joy when it's income and numbers and competition and just the grueling challenge of putting out all those videos constantly? Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Maybe we can have a guest on sometime and talk to them Kevin: I was Daniel: about Kevin: just Daniel: that. Kevin: thinking that. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. That would be great. Listeners, Kevin: Yeah, that's because... Daniel: if there's someone that you would like to recommend for that, let us know. Kevin: right Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: keeping Daniel: Yeah, that's gotta Kevin: the joy Daniel: be hard. Kevin: of gaming when it's a job to have a big rate of seven Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that sounds like a rap, Kevin. Kevin: I think it's a wrap. Daniel: You know what else sounds like a rap? Boom, boom, chh, ba-doom, ba-doom. My name Kevin: this Daniel: is Daniel Kevin: trap Daniel: and I'm here to say that Kevin: beat Daniel: Kevin is the most awesome Kevin: trap beat Daniel: every day. Weegee, weegee, weegee. Pfft. Kevin: 24 7 364 I take off Christmas Daniel: Uh, that was, that was also a rap. However, it wasn't a great rap. Your rap was great. Mine was subpar. Kevin: No, no, yours was Daniel: No, Kevin: much Daniel: it was, Kevin: better. Daniel: it was, Kevin: I just, Daniel: no. Kevin: I just opened a poll on Instagram and they all agree. Daniel: You're so fast with social media. Kevin: I know I'm really good. Daniel: You're too kind. Kevin: No, but Daniel: No. Kevin: you're better. Yeah, this is great. Next episode, Daniel. Daniel: Yeah, next episode, we are really excited about getting to welcome a special guest, Liz Davidson, who is in part a content creator online for about board games. She has another job as well, but she's going to be talking about the value of solo gaming, the value of solo gaming. And it's going to be great to have her on the show. And we look forward to talking with her. Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that's gonna be great. Daniel: But in Kevin: That's Daniel: the meantime, Kevin: gonna be awesome. Daniel: how can folks find us, Kevin: They Daniel: Kevin? Kevin: can find us at boardgamefaith.com and on Instagram, boardgamefaith. That's the best way. Daniel: Yep. And if they want to reach us, you can email us at boardgamefaith, all one word, at gmail.com, boardgamefaith at gmail.com Kevin: Right. Daniel: or info at boardgamefaith.com. Either one will get Kevin: or Daniel: it Kevin: our Daniel: to Kevin: fax Daniel: us. Kevin: number, Daniel: Our fax Kevin: which Daniel: number. Kevin: is not base 10. Daniel: No, Kevin: It's base Daniel: it's a Kevin: 8. Daniel: base 17. Kevin: Yes, Daniel: Oh, did we change Kevin: 817. Daniel: it to base eight? 817. Kevin: Yeah, well, Daniel: That's it. That's it. That's it. Kevin: if you round up from base 8 to 17, it's the same as long as you round. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: So we'll put that in the comments below the fax number in base 8, if you want to fax this. Daniel: Yeah, and if you need GPS coordinates for your homing pigeons, let us know and we can, we can, Kevin: Bye bye. Daniel: how do you tell, how do you tell the homing pigeon where to go? I don't know. Okay, they only Kevin: They Daniel: go Kevin: must Daniel: home. Kevin: only go to one place, they must Daniel: They Kevin: be trained, Daniel: only go Kevin: right? Daniel: home. You release them elsewhere. So Kevin: Right. Daniel: here's the thing. If you want to communicate with us by homing pigeon, send us your homing pigeon and we'll Kevin: Yep. Daniel: train it. So Kevin: Buy Daniel: it'll Kevin: Daniel Daniel: learn, Kevin: a homing pigeon. Daniel: and we'll train it to Kevin: and Daniel: come Kevin: then we'll Daniel: to this Kevin: ship Daniel: place. Kevin: it to you. Daniel: to you with Kevin: and then Daniel: I mean in Kevin: we'll Daniel: a very Kevin: get Daniel: humane Kevin: the message. Daniel: way so it's yeah Kevin: Yes. Daniel: we will take care of the pigeon and of course and that's right it'll only take I would imagine what 18 months this whole process Kevin: We should start a business called humane carrier pigeon, humane messenger pigeon shipping. Daniel: Humane, that would be great. Humane messenger pigeon Kevin: It costs Daniel: shipping. Kevin: more than the pigeon. Daniel: I like it. You know, Kevin: There's an app and you get a little report on how your pigeon's doing on the trip. Well, he Daniel: I... Kevin: ate all his foodie food and Daniel: Uber. Kevin: he played Daniel: Uber Kevin: with Daniel: pigeon. Kevin: Gerby. Yeah, Uber Daniel: That's Kevin: Pigeon. Daniel: right. Kevin: So you get all this report Daniel: I like Kevin: on how Daniel: it. Kevin: your pigeon's Daniel: I like Kevin: doing. Daniel: it, it'd be great. You know, I don't know, I know very little about homing pigeons, but I've always thought the topic was fascinating. And I thought it... Kevin: I Daniel: I Kevin: see. Daniel: thought it would make a fascinating board game. Kevin: Ooh. Daniel: Like, you know, Kevin: Oh, that would be a good Daniel: to Kevin: game. Daniel: buy pigeons and to train them and then to see if it can go across the world to a certain location and Kevin: That Daniel: things like Kevin: is Daniel: that. Kevin: amazing. Well, you could do a mechanic thing where like, when you move them at a certain point, they have to go back to a certain space. Like they go home. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, I like Kevin: Like when you release Daniel: that Kevin: them. Daniel: would be great. Kevin: So it's like a movement you can't control. And maybe you could trick other people's pigeon. Like I can mess with you by somehow, if I could release your pigeon, he would just go home and you would have to then go, I gotta go get them back, Daniel: Decoy Kevin: right? Daniel: pigeon. Yeah. Kevin: And you could decoy pigeons. Daniel: I Like the chaos pigeon you could release the chaos pigeon Kevin: Oh, the chaos pigeon. Daniel: at the pirate pigeons I like it. Kevin: the pirate Daniel: I think in honor Kevin: pigeons. Daniel: of this of this idea. We should bid farewell to our guests as pigeons Kevin: Yeah. Yes. Uh, Daniel: Pooh. Kevin: cause I'm off to design a board game. Hoo! Daniel: Cool, cool. Listeners, we really appreciate your spending time with us in the midst of such silliness. It's a joy and a gift and we're grateful for each of you and we hope that you have a great day and a great week and we look Kevin: Goodbye Daniel: forward to Kevin: friends. Daniel: talking with you soon. Kevin: Goodbye. Daniel: Bye bye.