Daniel: hobby board gaming, there is a great divide between Eurogames and Amerathrash games. We might call it perhaps a division between the Sith and the Jedi, though I'm not saying which is which. But in this eternal divide between Amerathrash games and Eurogames, which is better for the which serves better to help raise our souls up to new heights and to bring us to greater spiritual enlightenment. This episode we are taking a look at AmeriThrash Games vs Eurogames, which is better for the soul. On this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly podcast exploring the intersection of religion, and board games. Oh, yeah. Kevin: That's the shortened TikTok version, because it Daniel: And Kevin: keeps Daniel: we got Kevin: really, Daniel: it. We got to shorten it for the, for, for Kevin: for Daniel: our Kevin: the Daniel: tick Kevin: TikTok Daniel: tock Kevin: gen, Daniel: peeps. Yeah. Kevin: for the peeps. Daniel: Hey, Kevin: Yes, hello Daniel. Daniel: hello. Hey, welcome everybody. Welcome to board game faith, uh, the bi-weekly podcast on religion, spirituality and board games. It is great to have you here. My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin: My name is Daniel Holti also. Daniel: He is the better Daniel Hilty. Kevin: I'm formerly Daniel: I... Kevin: known as Kevin Taylor, the artist formerly known as Prince, Daniel: I'm Kevin: now Daniel: out. Kevin: known as Kevin Taylor, but formerly as Daniel Hilty. Hello! Hey, did you realize in the intro there you were saying a Marathrash? Daniel: Yes, you know, is it a mere thrash or a mere trash? I've heard, I've heard Kevin: I always Daniel: both. Kevin: hear Ameritrash, but Amerithrash sounds actually pretty awesome. Daniel: Well, I don't know which is more which is more canon Kevin: I'm Daniel: do Kevin: pretty Daniel: we? Kevin: sure it's usually a mirror trash, Daniel: Okay, Kevin: but there Daniel: okay. Kevin: may be a variant sort of like that is trashy maybe but thrash? Daniel: Right, right. I didn't Kevin: Because Daniel: know if it Kevin: you're Daniel: was kinder Kevin: beating up on Daniel: to Kevin: each Daniel: say Kevin: other? Daniel: Amerithrash versus Ameritrash. Like, you know, like Ameritrash sounds like you're putting it down, but Amerithrash is saying, well, you know, this is just kind of the point of the game. Kevin: I can see that. Yeah, I think there is a bit of a put down with Ameritrash. It probably started that way. And Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: now it's a bit of a wink, nod, nod of, you know, Daniel: Right, Kevin: I like Daniel: right. Kevin: something good and trashy and roll some dice. Daniel: Okay, Kevin: So it's Daniel: okay. Kevin: kind of been, now it's kind of a little ironic as a title. Daniel: Well, Kevin: But yeah, Daniel: should Kevin: we're Daniel: we... Kevin: gonna have a throw down today, aren't we? Daniel: We're gonna have a throwdown. Are you okay with our intro? Should I re-record the intro? Euro versus Kevin: No. Daniel: Amerithrash? No. Okay, okay, we'll keep it as it is. Well, we're having a throwdown today. Kevin: We are having a throwdown between Daniel: Throwdown, throwdown. Kevin: me and Daniel. Daniel: Chica-chica-boom, chica-chica-boom-boom. All Kevin: Ugh. Daniel: right, yeah. So the throwdown is between Ameritrash slash Amerithrash, let's just say Ameritrash, versus Eurogames, largely seen as the two major camps in modern hobby board gaming. And Kevin, you and I have talked about this. You think it's fair to say that maybe you tend... gravitate a little bit more toward the Ameritrash side, I tend to gravitate a little bit more toward the Euro side, though we certainly can appreciate and love both types of games. Is that fair Kevin: Yes, Daniel: to say? Kevin: I think Daniel: Okay, Kevin: that's fair to say. Daniel: okay. It's kind of like, do you remember the old Donnie and Marie Osmond show where they began every episode by saying, I'm a little bit country and I'm a little bit rock and roll? Kevin: No, I don't remember that. I do remember that show. Daniel: I'm Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: dating myself as such an old man. Yeah, way, way back in the 1970s, I think, for our listeners Kevin: Probably. Daniel: who may not even been around at that point, there was this variety show with a brother and sister team, Donnie and Marie Osmond, and, and we're still around. And, Kevin: They are still around. Donny Osmond's Daniel: yeah. Kevin: friends with Weird Al. He was in his video. Daniel: Nice, nice. And I believe they would begin the song, the episode with a song, every episode with a song where Marie declares that she's a little bit country and Donnie's a little bit rock and roll. I think. Kevin: I did know that. I love it. That makes, Daniel: But that's, Kevin: oh, I'll put Daniel: that's. Kevin: a link. I'm sure that's on, we can link to it on YouTube or something. Daniel: Okay, Kevin: We'll find Daniel: yeah, Kevin: it. Daniel: and maybe that's us. Maybe you're a little bit Kevin: Yeah, if I like it. Daniel: rock and roll Kevin: Because Daniel: and I'm a little bit country or vice Kevin: I Daniel: versa. Kevin: was thinking of an older show that was popular on CNN called Crossfire, and they'd have a conservative Daniel: Crossfire. Kevin: and a liberal argue. But Daniel: Right. Kevin: that's probably not fair, because we actually like both sides. So it's not so much of a rawr, but a little bit Daniel: Rawr! Kevin: more of, I'm a little more of this than that. But Daniel: Okay, Kevin: I like Daniel: okay, Kevin: it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel: okay. That Kevin: But Daniel: sounds Kevin: actually, Daniel: good. Kevin: there is one that is better. I'm going to argue for that. Daniel: And we shall see. Kevin: We shall Daniel: We shall Kevin: see. Daniel: see which is better for the soul. So for our listeners, maybe who are a little bit unfamiliar with the differences. Well, anyway, I'm going to kind of turn that all over to you, Kevin. So how should we Kevin: Oh Daniel: get this Kevin: dear. Daniel: conversation started? How should we get this conversation started? Kevin: Yeah, yeah. Let's get this conversation started. Board games have been around for a long, long time, and we think of board games, and that's including chess and other things, and checkers and things that are hard to even define when it started. There's elements of board games and ancient cultures that we don't even know how to play, and that sort of thing. But I think it's probably fair to say that if we think of Ameritrash as a game that involves player elimination, which is Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: a fair characteristic. Probably Ameritrash started first because most games involve eliminating the other player. So I'm looking at you checkers and chess. Daniel: Right, right, right. Kevin: Monopoly Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: and say risk. Now checkers and chess are the nice bit with that is... that's when the game ends. If you have multiple players, like in Monopoly or Risk, you have the problem of someone's eliminated, but the game keeps going if you have more Daniel: Right. Kevin: than two people. And then you end up having to twiddle your thumbs and watch the game continue. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: So yeah, a mare trash tends to involve luck and it tends to involve player elimination. And so it has really explosive moments. Often there's dice involved, maybe some kind of battling theme. One type is dudes on a map, which is kind of a dungeon crawl type idea of you've got to survive or you've got to defeat one major boss. So lots of video games have that idea of going through and then defeating the boss and getting to the next level. Daniel: Right, Kevin: And Daniel: right. Kevin: yeah, luck, interaction, explosive moments. and can be mean because you win by eliminating someone else. How Daniel: Right, Kevin: would Daniel: and that. Kevin: you, what would you add to that or say about Euro games, which are more recent, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: correct? Daniel: yeah, right, right. No, and I agree that that's a great characterization. And maybe one other aspect of Ameritrash that just occurs to me is player elimination also signals the end of the game, right? That's the game ends when there's one person remaining, right? But whether it's two people or seven people, you eliminate all the other players and the one remaining, when there's one Queen or King or Sovereign of the Hill, right? Who's the one person who's left up there. Kevin: Sovereign of the Bound. Daniel: Sovereign of the Mound. Kevin: The Hillock. Daniel: Yeah. Whereas Euro, and you're right, I think Euro developed later. I am not an expert on this. I would love to do maybe an episode of this where we talk about a book or listen to an expert talk about this. I believe Euro's especially developed in the wake of World War II. And they were once called German-style board games because they were originally centered around Germany, kind of rebuilding after World War II. And I think largely kind of like, what do we do with these factories that used to produce war machines? Why don't we produce games with them now? And I think part of it is tied a little bit. And again, I'm no expert on this, for what the little bit of red and kind of my impression, part of it was tied to a desire in the wake of World War II to not focus energies anymore on how do we eliminate others? How do we win in a competition, but more toward in a world of limited resources, how can we do our best without eliminating others? Kevin: Hmm Daniel: How can we all get along? Essentially kind of this, maybe more toward kind of a more, a shift of focus of energies on kind of peaceful but realistic coexistence, kind of Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: something like that. And so Euro games were and are especially focused on given this system of limited resources, how can we all use these limited resources to the best of our abilities to better ourselves? And so the end of the game then is triggered not by player elimination because everybody comes to the end of the game together. But... the winner is declared by who made best use of those limited resources by the end of the game. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: And so, you know, for example, maybe it's a game where you harvest wood in a forest, and then you convert that wood into Velcro. I'm not sure how Velcro Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: is made, but I'm just guessing. I'm guessing Kevin: Yeah, I think Daniel: that Kevin: it's Daniel: Velcro Kevin: definitely Daniel: is derived from wood. Yeah, yeah. Kevin: splinter-based technology. Daniel: I think that's the world I live in, at least. And so you convert wood into Velcro over the course of the game. And maybe at some Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: point, stage three, you convert the Velcro into strawberry shortcake. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: And Kevin: That's a good Daniel: which Kevin: game. I know exactly the game you're talking about Daniel: it is, I think it's, yeah. Kevin: Yeah Daniel: And so at the end of the game, maybe the people, the person who has produced the most strawberry shortcake. out of Velcro, which then was converted out of wood, from wood, is the winner of the game. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: And so Eurogames typically involve the concept of victory points. And maybe that was called victory points, maybe they're called prestige points or honor points or whatever. But it's not who is eliminated and who survives, but who has the most points, victory points at the end of the game. So that's kind of how Eurogames, does that seem like a fair characterization? Kevin: Yeah, I think that's right. They famously had little wooden meeples on them, and that's where that word came from, is having little, Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: often wood, persons that are kind of strangely, they don't have necks, so it's a fear of necks. It's anti-giraffe, is that fair? Anti-giraffe, because they're kind of like this. Daniel: Meeples are not famous for their long necks. No, no, Kevin: No, they're Daniel: we could Kevin: not. Daniel: see them Kevin: They're not. Daniel: on our board Kevin: So Daniel: game Kevin: it's kind Daniel: faith Kevin: of Daniel: T-shirt Kevin: a strange Daniel: here. Yeah, Kevin: humanoid. Yes. Daniel: there's a meep, yeah. Kevin: Yeah. So the little wooden figurines of some sort, but you don't, there's not a lot of conflict and you're, you're typically scoring victory points and you may have your own little player board or tableau or something. So yeah, Daniel: Right. Kevin: there's, there may not be any luck at all, except for, there's always some luck, I guess, which might be what card is drawn or, or whatnot, but, but you don't. It's much more high strategy, low luck. Which strangely Daniel: A very popular... Kevin: is a bit more like chess. Even though Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: chess is elimination, there's no luck in it. It's all strategy. Daniel: True, true. So I mean, a very popular example of a Euro game, Euro style game today would be Wingspan. Many people know Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Wingspan, a great game by designer Elizabeth Hargraves. And if you've played that, you know, it's, you know, you're not trying to eliminate the other player, you're trying to build the best aviary. Maybe is that the right word, but basically best collection of birds. Kevin: For the Velcro, Daniel: And you can, Kevin: the birds Daniel: right, Kevin: bring Daniel: so that you Kevin: the Daniel: can Kevin: wood Daniel: convert Kevin: and the wood brings the Velcro. Daniel: That's exactly right. And then Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: you turn Kevin: yeah. Daniel: the Velcro into the sweet, sweet strawberry shortcake. I'm pretty sure that, yeah, that's how it works. Kevin: Yeah, this is often Daniel: And. Kevin: so and there's a timer involved to or as Monopoly ends as we said when the elimination happens But a euro game will have like after so many rounds the game will end Daniel: Exactly. Yeah. Kevin: So Daniel: Other Kevin: so it Daniel: examples. Kevin: part of it is efficiency you're playing for efficiency Daniel: Efficiency Kevin: Everyone Daniel: is a Kevin: has Daniel: good Kevin: the same Daniel: word. Kevin: number of turns who can get the most victory points in those turns Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: by acting efficiently Daniel: So we're talking wingspan, another popular example you brought up, Kevin, before show is Feast for Odin. A lot of people have Feast for Odin, an Uwe Rosenberg Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: game. Carcassonne is probably another example. Catan is probably another example. There Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: are some... Kevin: I was thinking of Catan, and Catan is interesting because it is a Euro game, and it's thought of that, but it does use dice, and there's kind of a hybrid of luck, which is which numbers Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: are producing what, because the numbers trigger certain resource production. Daniel: Right, right. And Katan does involve a little bit of negative player interaction where you do something to hurt the other player, which you do see from time to time in Euro, but is not Kevin: How do you do that? Daniel: the thief, the robber, something like that. You use Kevin: Right, Daniel: the thief or the robber Kevin: right, Daniel: to take Kevin: I forgot Daniel: away Kevin: about the Daniel: resources Kevin: robber. Daniel: from another person, yeah. Which Kevin: That's Daniel: is kind Kevin: right, Daniel: of a problematic Kevin: gosh. Daniel: theme in and of itself. And then Kevin: That's Daniel: one Kevin: why Daniel: of Kevin: Daniel Daniel: my personal Kevin: has a lot Daniel: favorites. Kevin: of insurance. Daniel sells insurance within the Ketan game. Daniel: I do, that's right. Kevin: Like Daniel: It's, Kevin: a good neighbor, Daniel is there. Daniel: I call it protection money, but yeah. Hey, hey. Kevin: Gov, it'd be a shame if something happened to this farm over here, Gov. Hey Daniel: That's Kevin: Gov. Daniel: right, that's right. Give me a little protection money. And one of my personal heroes is Tapestry by Jamie Stegmeier. Kevin: which I've never played. Daniel: It's a great Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Euro-civilization themed game. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Anyway, so hopefully that gives some sense to our listeners of the difference between um, Euro and Ameritrash, Ameritrash. Does that seem to cover the basis in terms of distinguishing the two? Kevin, what do you think? Kevin: Yeah, I think that's great. Euro tends to be less mean, because you can't, except for Robber and Catan or some other games like that, you don't really take things from the other person. You can block them and you can sort of thwart their plans. And that is part of the fun of Euro, is you're trying to figure out what the other person is doing and trying to... deny them certain high points. And that's what makes them hard, because you really have to maximize your own game while trying to stop the others, but you Daniel: right. Kevin: can't directly steal from them, typically. Daniel: Right, right, yeah. Kevin: Yeah, and I would throw war gaming as kind of a weird variant. It's probably more of a Meritrash type Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: of that's simulating some types of war. So you are fighting each other, but there can be resources. a part of that like in the there's these counter insurgency games the coin games Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: and there can be other win conditions besides battling so there's all sorts of interesting cross pollination going between Ameritrash and Europe Daniel: There is, you know, and that occurs to me as we're talking, it just now hit me that, you know, resource management was even around in ancient games. I think of like Monkala, for example, you know, Monkala, an ancient Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: game, I think, with roots in Africa, you know, which I as I understood was kind of seen almost kind of as a simulation or inspired by the process of sowing seeds, right? You're going around and you're sowing seeds in these different, these different wells in the board. I mean, that's very much kind of resource management as well. I think how it might still be considered player elimination versus Euro is that, you know, You still played until the other player was eliminated, I believe. And so maybe the novelty of Euro games when they came around was not playing, not triggering the end game by player elimination, but by triggering the end game simply by some, like you said, some timer. Like the number of rounds is over or whatever. It feels Kevin: Which Daniel: weird. Kevin: heightens the efficiency. Because risk would be more mirror trash. You do need to be efficient, but not necessarily. You could also just have a bold strategy or just have some winning hits and you still win even though you weren't that efficient. Daniel: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Kevin: And there is no timer except for when you win the game. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: So yeah, there's some really interesting mixing up of the genres and people exploring different ways to introduce resources or... card management or timers within Ameritrash type gaming. I'd Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: say too, Euro tends to be safer topics. So as you were saying earlier, it might be about growing wheat or fish or growing, there's an alternate win condition in the game you were describing with the Velcro. And that's that if you know the fishmonger, the fishmonger Daniel: The Fishmonger. Kevin: can, if you trade with him enough, he'll turn the fish scales into the Velcro. Daniel: That's right, I forgot about that. That's Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: kind of the shoot Kevin: that Daniel: the moon. Kevin: people it's on it's on page nine. So people sometimes forget it's kind of bare They should have done a player aid for that game, which Daniel: I should have. Kevin: I won't name because everyone knows this game Daniel: It goes without saying. Kevin: It goes without saying Daniel: The Velcro. Kevin: This game doesn't exist Daniel: The Velcro food, Kevin: The Velcro Daniel: wood, Kevin: Fishmonger. Daniel: strawberry shortcake, fish Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: game. Kevin: But yeah, these are not controversial type. We're not necessarily doing conquest or battling or cowboys versus Indians type of thing. It's more about trading fish or preparing a feast for Odin and collecting little boxes or something. Daniel: Right, right. And certainly and still to even exactly. I mean, probably one of the most beloved Euro games with the modern era is a Gricola. And that's all your Uwe Rosenberg game about farming. And that's all about like it's just about farming. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Yeah, you know, it's very much so. Kevin: And you can almost see the difference in what people are attracted to by the concept and the art. Because there are some people that will say, oh wingspan, I mean look at this art, look at this bird on the cover. And they're immediately interested or you show them and it's got little horses or cows and they are excited by that. Daniel: Right, Kevin: And Daniel: right. Kevin: other people are going to be a little bored or turned off. But if you show them aliens holding a big Klingon type sword weapon, they're like, oh, I want to be that guy. So Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: you can see the personality even from just the box design. Daniel: Yeah, that's interesting. Kevin: What kind of player are you? Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right, you're right. It does, and that gets into questions of, yeah, how is this thematically skinned, you know, or even Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: as we've discussed in previous episodes, you know, I guess it raises the question, we've talked in previous episodes, you know, can you put any theme on any mechanism or... Are there certain game mechanisms that necessarily imply a certain kind of theme? You know, and Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: that's, which is maybe another discussion for another time, but Kevin: Right. Daniel: maybe Eurogames are better suited for the theme of farming. You know, and maybe Ameritrash Prayer Elimination is better suited for the theme of, you know, aliens with ray guns, you know, or whatever, you know, Kevin: Mm. Daniel: kind of, or maybe not. You know, I don't Kevin: And Daniel: know. Kevin: dice tends to go with battles, not always, but that does throw in Daniel: Right. Kevin: that luck idea of you bring so many troops, but then there's this a little something about were the win conditions favorable for your arrows or something like that. Daniel: Right, right, yeah, yeah. Kevin: So, but that's not always true. There are some games where you battle and it's simply who has the higher whatever. But Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: usually you want to have something, you know, this is where luck can be beneficial to a game. There's some way that even if you don't have a good defense, you might still win. That creates a lot of excitement. That you may go in with the best army or the weakest army and still get an upset. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: And that Daniel: well, Kevin: adds a bit of a thrill. Daniel: right, Kevin: As Daniel: right. Kevin: well as Daniel: And Kevin: helps Daniel: I. Kevin: one person, yeah, because you may be really weak, but if you have a good roll, wow. Daniel: This is a theme I've heard you return to often over the course of this episode, and I love it about you. It's that I think one of the things, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you love most about... Amir Trash, kind of luck-based dice games, is this sense that, you know, no matter how far you're behind or whatever, you might have this amazing dice roll that just changes the Kevin: Yes. Daniel: whole system. And I've seen you come alive when you talk about the possibility, you know, that, yeah, Kevin: That's Daniel: that luck Kevin: funny. Daniel: can be bad, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: but Kevin: no, Daniel: luck can be Kevin: I Daniel: good, Kevin: think you're right. Daniel: too. Yeah, Kevin: I love Daniel: yeah, Kevin: the dice. I love the risk. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: I love the push your luck. I love the explosive moments because I think in part, that's what I remember. Those are the memories. I remember that time we were playing Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: this Daniel: yeah, Kevin: game Daniel: yeah. Kevin: and I had to roll a 20 and I rolled a 19, but then I had the card and it meant I got a 20. Like, that's just so Daniel: Right. Kevin: the thrills. It's a bit of a. roller coaster type experience. You get Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: that Daniel: yeah, yeah. Kevin: in Stranger Things the last season where they play D&D and she Daniel: Yes. Kevin: rolls the 20. And so I do love that. Now I hate it too because you can go in with the best strategy and have a bad roll and lose. And that's frustrating. So there are definitely dark sides to, or moments of frustration where you just don't roll well. Whatever that means, but yeah, I do like the luck. I think it's good for noobs, you know, someone who's new to the game to know that, hey, if I have a good role, it might turn out okay. That's very empowering Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: versus a high-stake strategy game where you realize, oh, I lost this game two rounds ago because I didn't buy this boat. Daniel: Right, Kevin: And now Daniel: right. Kevin: and Daniel bought the boat, but I didn't buy the boat. So now I don't remember put the Velcro. Daniel: Right, Kevin: So what do you Daniel: right, Kevin: do? And Daniel: right. Kevin: so Eurogames often have to have a catch-up mechanism. There Daniel: Yes. Kevin: is some way that you can do something to catch up. Otherwise, you're kind of just watching others crush you. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Versus Daniel: Though it occurs Kevin: a Daniel: to Kevin: mare Daniel: me. Kevin: trash with the dice, there's always a catch-up, which is luck, hopefully. Daniel: Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. I totally agree. It occurs to me maybe there are some exceptions. Like I do think about, you know, Monopoly is often seen as and I think you're right. It's kind of an Ameritrash player elimination game. But there are certain games in Monopoly where you realize half an hour into it. there's no way you're going to win and yet the game goes on for three more hours. You Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: know, you just have to Kevin: yeah, Daniel: like Kevin: that's Daniel: go Kevin: tough. Daniel: on. But yeah, but yeah, but you're right. Certainly, I think that happens more often in Euro games where you do you realize kind of early on in the game, I'm not going to win this, but then you just kind of keep on going. So well, that brings up some questions then. So, so the heart of this, the heart, the heart of this, Kevin, which is better for the soul? Kevin: You do not know the power of the dark side. Daniel: Are Euro games better for the soul or are Ameritrash player elimination games better for the soul? What are your thoughts? Kevin: Gosh, I gotta go with the mirror trash. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Right? Daniel: why is that? Kevin: I gotta go with the mirror trash. Daniel: Why are you a little bit rock and roll? Kevin: I think it's more inviting to others. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: because of that element of luck and it creates a communal experience. Because everyone's like, oh, is he going to play the card or is this going to happen? It just creates more, there's more zest. There's more, so I think it... Daniel: That's a great, a great point. Kevin: You think it, yeah, it adds more zest to it, like the rock and roll. Now it does, I gotta admit, it does create more getting crushed and more sense of failure or being left out. So that's the hard bit. But optimally, I think it creates an experience at the table that's just very memorable. And that's what we want often in games. Daniel: I've never. Kevin: I'll put it this way, it's hard to remember a great game of Feast for Odin. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: Like it's fun, but if you play it a lot, they kind of become very... Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: similar. Daniel: I think that is such a great point, Kevin, and I never really considered that before, but it may be counterintuit, Kevin: Point to me! Daniel: counter, counterintuitively, Kevin: You go. Daniel: maybe Ameritrash player elimination games are better at fostering a sense of community. Counterintuitively. Kevin: Sometimes. I will admit it's not every time. Counterintuitively, Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: it does create, if it's the right people, now if you've got some cruel, experienced players that just crush you, that's the op, there's a sense of shame probably. Daniel: Right, right. And if the players are, you know, ontologically concerned, Kevin: Velcro allologically. Daniel: that's right, in winning, you know. Like Kevin: and winning. Daniel: we've discussed before, you know, that everyone has to be interested in winning for the game to work. So there is the level of a functional desire to win. But then, but I think sometimes a player might... We might call it maybe an ontological desire to win. Like it really, it has to do with their core being, like their core sense Kevin: Right. Daniel: of value and worth. If a person is kind of ontologically concerned with winning, then Ameritrash. games, yeah, could be devastating in terms of that sense of community. They feel very alienated. But if everyone's in it to win it just for the sake of the game to work, then it really can create a sense of community, because you're right, because then you remember these moments around the table. A big critique of Eurogames is often that your head is down, you're just looking at your board the whole time, you're really not having any interaction with any other players at all, and it doesn't create that sense of community. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: So... Kevin: yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's probably my favorite sort of spiritual moment or good for the soul with Ameritrash Games is it creates an excitement. Even when you lose, like if it was a dice roll, you're kinda like, wow, the dice, I mean, it's kinda not your fault. Daniel: You're Kevin: That's Daniel: right. Kevin: when you take that bad dice and you, bad die, you put it in your microwave and you punish them. Daniel: You take this. Kevin: Right, you're like, it Daniel: Take Kevin: was the Daniel: this. Kevin: dice's fault, not me. So it takes the pressure off. And it does hopefully interest the table if there's a big battle happening in Twilight Imperium. And you really are curious and you're watching the dice rolls. That can be kind of fun even as a not being involved. It can be. It can get boring as well. But you're like, oh my gosh, he just blew him out of the water. And I guess it's like watching a sports event. Daniel: Right, Kevin: You know, Daniel: right, Kevin: goal. They finally score a goal. Daniel: exactly, exactly. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: so I'm 1-0. Is that fair? Daniel: I think you're one zero. In fact, Kevin: Okay, well let's hear Daniel: that Kevin: what you Daniel: point Kevin: got, Daniel: was Kevin: Daniel. Daniel: so good and might be like three zero. Kevin: You're up, Daniel. Daniel: All right, all right. So I guess this is why I feel my sole benefits, especially from Euro games. I've got a few reasons, but I mean, I'll just start with one. One is I think it... It kind of, it focuses energy more on bettering and improving myself versus tearing others down. If that makes sense. So, Kevin: That's a good one. Daniel: no, that's, I mean, you know, like, you know, I'm not putting energy toward how can I, how can Kevin: Right. Daniel: I destroy this person over there? But it's more like, how can I become a better... Kevin: Right. Daniel: wood to velcro converter, you know, or how can I, how can I, it's more just about bettering myself than tearing Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: others down. Kevin: you're right. And one thing we haven't mentioned is most Ameritrash games are zero sums. So for me to gain, I must take from you. And that's a terrible Daniel: Right. Kevin: thing to teach, I have to admit, that for me to do well, I must crush you. Versus Euro is much more of how do I, as you, yeah, it's more about your own baggage. Ooh, that's kind Daniel: Well, Kevin: of hurt some points there for me. Daniel: no, I don't know about that. I don't know. You know, I mentioned the history of Euro games, as I understand it, at the beginning. And I mean, I do think it's an interesting. I do think you can see that intentional shift in the creation of the idea of the Euro game. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: You know, I think I mentioned before on this podcast, maybe not. You know, we have some dear relatives in Germany who are native German out of the Mennonite tradition, you know, like I am myself. And... And obviously, you know, they can speak to this much more than I can. And people who are German can speak to this much more than I can. But but just in talking my limited conversations with them and, you know, and largely my generation, so born after World War II, but they really speak to kind of a collective, a collective. just national repentance and maybe you may say shame, sense of shame of what happened in World War II and the rise of the Nazis and Holocaust and just some of the worst things we have seen in human history and really some deep, deep soul searching. And I'm sure, you know, it's not, of course, across the board, neo-Nazis are still around in Germany and in the US, you know, and around the world. Kevin: Oh yeah, lots Daniel: But Kevin: of Nazi sympathizers in the past Daniel: yes, Kevin: and in the present here. Daniel: right, right. But Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: at least for Kevin: No one's Daniel: a Kevin: immune. Daniel: portion of the German population, which would include, I think, my cousins that I've gotten to know, just this really sense of soul-searching. And how Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: can we, how can we... how can we train our hearts and our minds for a better way? Kevin: Right. Daniel: That, and I see maybe the development of a different kind of game is maybe a little bit of a part of that. And it is, how can, maybe this question for the games, how can we make these games, how can we make a game that helps us focus our energies on bettering ourselves and not tearing down other people, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: kind Kevin: no, Daniel: of. Kevin: that's a beautiful message and spiritual message out of gaming. And that's at post-war time period. I've watched a great documentary called Helvetica. I forget where it was, but it's about the Daniel: Oh, Kevin: font Helvetica and how Daniel: I've Kevin: it Daniel: heard Kevin: was Daniel: of Kevin: part Daniel: this. I haven't Kevin: of that Daniel: seen Kevin: brutalist Daniel: it. Kevin: type architecture and thinking after World War II that they really wanted to reshape and build a better world after two... horrific world wars that had just Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: messed with so much of Europe and England. So the creation of fonts, the creation of architecture, the creation of the UN, the creation of the National Healthcare System Service in England, all this is coming out of... England was very, well I shouldn't say very poor, but they were impoverished after the war, both from bombing but also fighting the war. And they still had the courage to found a national healthcare system. Daniel: That's so interesting. Kevin: Right? Daniel: I had no Kevin: And Daniel: idea. Kevin: because Daniel: That Kevin: they Daniel: history. Kevin: wanted to turn their backs on what had led to the wars and build something better. And of Daniel: Wow. Kevin: course America, after fighting Germany and Japan... finds ways to help rebuild and make them allies and friends, which I think is a great story of the 20th century that we Daniel: Right, Kevin: don't tell Daniel: right, Kevin: a lot of Daniel: right. Kevin: building, of bombing and then building. And it's sad that the bombing happened, of course, and some of the bombing was horrific for lots of reasons. I'm thinking about the atomic bombs, but. you know, after the bombs, there was not hatred, but there was building. And I think that's Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: great. And that really exemplifies that Euro type of, what can we build here and build together that we didn't even know we could build? Let's Daniel: Right. Kevin: create a font and an architecture. And even though the brutalist type architecture is kind of ugly, it's kind of cool knowing that story that, you know, from the 50s to the 70s. And then in the 80s, we just gave up. So, Daniel: That's so interesting. I Kevin: yeah. Daniel: need to see that documentary. Thank you for Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: sharing Kevin: Helvetica. Daniel: that. I love Kevin: I forget Daniel: that. Kevin: where it might have been on Netflix, but I found it strangely. I couldn't stop watching it. Daniel: I've seen it advertised. I want to see that. Thank you. Kevin: Yeah, it's worth watching. And it's one of the great fonts in the history of the world. It's Helvetica. Daniel: It's the fad of every blessing. It's good. Kevin: Did you just make that up? Daniel: I did. Kevin: Oh my gosh, that Daniel: I don't Kevin: is Daniel: think Kevin: a Daniel: that, Kevin: work of Jesus. Daniel: I Kevin: Come Daniel: don't Kevin: by, Daniel: think that. Kevin: this is a classic Christian, Protestant Christian hymn, come Daniel: That's Kevin: by Daniel: a deep, Kevin: fount of every blessing, come by Daniel: that's Kevin: font Daniel: a Christian Kevin: of every Daniel: Protestant Kevin: blessing. Daniel: deep cut. Sorry, there's an old Christian Protestant hymn, come thou fount of every blessing. Sorry, that was so nerdy. Kevin: Which has got Daniel: That Kevin: to Daniel: was Kevin: be Daniel: so Kevin: the most Daniel: church nerdy. Kevin: awkward hymn title ever. Come who? The fount. Fountains don't come. Well, it's a metaphor. Come Daniel: It's Kevin: by Daniel: a fountain Kevin: fount Daniel: of every Kevin: of every Daniel: blessing. Kevin: blessing. It's a Daniel: See Kevin: great Daniel: that Kevin: hymn. Daniel: fountain walking on legs over there? So Kevin: You see that? Daniel: it's coming toward us. So Kevin, Kevin: Yeah? Daniel: so I think we're maybe at three, you get three points like at one point maybe. What do you have? You have another, Kevin: No, Daniel: you have Kevin: you Daniel: another... Kevin: get more than one. That was pretty good. I'm gonna give you two. I'm gonna give you two for that. Daniel: Okay, Kevin: Okay? Daniel: okay, thank you. So how about you? You have any other thoughts on Ameri- Thrash trash benefits for the soul? Kevin: I really don't actually. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I kind of threw it all into that one. That was just Daniel: That's good. Kevin: that was actually an Ameritrash comment Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: in the sense that I threw it all into one big battle and I have nothing else. I just shoved all everything, you know, just shoved all the money into the pot to see if Daniel: And it's Kevin: I Daniel: a Kevin: won Daniel: very Kevin: the Daniel: Ameritrash Kevin: poker hand Daniel: move. Kevin: type thing. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: Yeah, very Daniel: I Kevin: Ameritrash Daniel: like it. Kevin: move. Daniel: I like it. Kevin: Yeah, no, I Daniel: That's Kevin: just Daniel: good. Kevin: I think the high stakes, the victories, the moments, the building of a of a, yeah, I think building of a memory, yeah, but I'm just rehashing. Daniel: No, it's Kevin: So Daniel: great. Kevin: that's Daniel: It's great. Kevin: it. How about you, any other? Daniel: It was very well Kevin: I Daniel: said. Kevin: suspect you have another Velcro quiver in your bow. Daniel: Well, Kevin: Bop, bop, bop. Daniel: the only other thought that occurred to me, but this might just be a sub part of the first point, is... They often talk in Eurogames about many paths to victory, right? Whereas I guess I'm doing this in contrast to player elimination or mirror trash. And I may be wrong on this, they'll call me on this if I'm wrong. But you know, whereas in mirror trash, prayer elimination, there's basically one path to victory, which is I'm going to eliminate the other player. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Euro games they often talk about, well, you know, you can develop your wood industry or you can develop your velcro industry or strawberry shortcake industry, you know, or you can do all the many paths to victory. And I wonder if that kind of helps to encourage what maybe the mystics might call like non-dualistic thinking, you know, as opposed Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: to dualistic, like, you know, like, so it's not... It encourages us to think about the world, not in terms of either or, right or wrong, winner or loser, but encourages us to think about. There are a lot of different ways to achieve Kevin: it's Daniel: contentment Kevin: a sandbox Daniel: in life. Kevin: element Daniel: Right, Kevin: and to feast Daniel: right. Kevin: for Odin that can be daunting for a new player to that game like I don't know what to do Daniel: It Kevin: so Daniel: can Kevin: there's Daniel: be daunting. Kevin: analysis paralysis but Daniel: You're Kevin: it's Daniel: right. Kevin: also a lot of fun to test different strategies like what if I do this or what if I try for this in round three so it creates a lot of excitement and interest and um yeah it's kind of like keep you get to re- respawn and retry just restart the game. And there is an excitement in Eurogames when you think there's no way forward and you find one. So you're Daniel: Yes. Kevin: like, oh, there's no way I can get 10 points. Oh no, wait a minute. If I upgrade my hook for the fishing rod Daniel: Yes! Then Kevin: and I Daniel: I Kevin: build Daniel: can... Kevin: the boat, and then I have the Velcro already because it's an upgraded hook, then I can catch more fish because Daniel: Exactly. Kevin: I don't have to just impale them, I can just Velcro. Daniel: I believe that's called the upgraded hook Velcro Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: long shot. Yeah. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: Because Kevin: it's hard Daniel: because Kevin: to get, but boy, if you can get it. And yeah, so that's a real thrill of like, oh, I thought I'd lost, but all of a sudden I just netted 12 points. So Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: that's Daniel: yeah, Kevin: yeah. Daniel: but Kevin: And Daniel: you're right. Kevin: also, along with Euro games, you don't always know who's won till the end. So there's often a reveal, which can be exciting. Daniel: Yeah, that's Kevin: Right. Daniel: true. Kevin: There's the reveal. Daniel: A lot of people don't like that, but I do like that. Some of my favorite games are... I think I mentioned Bunny Kingdom before as an example of this, but Concordia might be another example, but where basically you decide... Largely not entirely but you decide largely what points are going to get at the end of the game based on what secret objectives you choose Kevin: Right. Daniel: from the deck and so you might have this whole pile of Secret objectives and no one else but you knows what they are at the end of the game It's at the end of the game you reveal all these things It's like oh, whoa this person wins and I didn't think they would win and that's so in a way that kind of simulates Some of the joy of the mirror trash games, you know, it's Kevin: I Daniel: like Kevin: think Daniel: this. Kevin: you're right. Daniel: It's yeah. Yeah, Kevin: I Daniel: it's Kevin: was Daniel: like Kevin: just Daniel: this Kevin: thinking Daniel: surprising Kevin: that it's not Daniel: win Kevin: luck. I guess it's a bit of luck in that I don't know what you have, and maybe I'm hoping you don't have a certain card. So to the other players, it's luck. To the actual person holding it, it's not luck, because you've been planning it. But the others, it's kind of a what's in the box type moment. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: So it gives a certain swinginess. And so yeah, I agree, it is fun. And it creates a certain excitement at the end of the game. We Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: played Glenmore 2, right? And I think that Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: is what happened that I ended up, I think you probably let me win, but ended up winning Daniel: No you want- Kevin: I think Daniel: no. Kevin: at the very end with the surprise of the reveal, yeah. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin: Now there are some Euro games where all knowledge is public and so there can't be any surprises. So Daniel: Okay. Kevin: there are some that... Daniel: Right. Kevin: that every... and chess would do that way. There's no surprise. There's no hidden card or something. Daniel: No, no, everything is public. Everything is public knowledge and Kevin: Everything's Daniel: that for sure. Kevin: public, yeah. That's Daniel: So... Kevin: cool, that's cool. So that would be another Daniel: What do we Kevin: point. Daniel: think? Kevin: So, oh my gosh, is this a draw? Is it 3-3? Daniel: Maybe we're tied. I think we're tied. I think it's a draw. Good Methodist that we are. It's a draw. Ha ha ha. Kevin: Now if it's a draw, we have to go into who had the most example of games. Daniel: tie breaker Kevin: Is that Daniel: tie breaker. Kevin: tiebreaker? And did Daniel: I think Kevin: anyone Daniel: you're Kevin: have Daniel: right. Kevin: a... I think we had the same number of games, right? We each had five? Daniel: I think, Kevin: I'm kind of Daniel: so Kevin: making Daniel: we have to Kevin: this Daniel: go to Kevin: up, Daniel: second Kevin: I'm going Daniel: tiebreaker. Kevin: to be honest. So Daniel: Second Kevin: second Daniel: tiebreaker, Kevin: tiebreaker. Daniel: I think who had the most Velcro? Are you, I have no Velcro on me right now. Are you wearing Kevin: I'm currently Daniel: any Velcro? Kevin: Velcroed into my chair. Daniel: I think you win then. Good job. Kevin: Well, but did I really? Because I can never leave. Daniel: I have won, but at what cost? Kevin: But at what cost? No, I think, yeah, as you were wonderfully saying about the Osmonds, I think people naturally gravitate to a certain type of game, and that's great, and it really depends on the person, and people can change. So I think I still love Euros, and I was more intrigued by them, because I'd never seen anything like them, but I've kind of gone back to Mare Trash, so another... And if you're playing these games for several years, you may flip around, or have exceptions, or whatnot. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Kevin: but Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I think it is totally fair to have a center of gravity. Daniel: Yeah, and I think that's very, very well said. Yeah, it depends on the person. It may change over the course of your life, may change multiple times over the course of your life. And it depends on life situation in life and context. And I mean, I, you certainly have made Ameritrash player elimination games much more appealing to me and just thinking about the sense of Kevin: Oh. Daniel: the... the joy and thrill it creates and a shared communal experience around a table. That's really hard to get with kind of just a pure Euro game. Yeah. Kevin: Hmm. Well, and you've reminded me that your games are really kind of magical and ambitious in the sense of what they're trying to say. So Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: I think they have a very noble heart to them, which is that we can take little and make something amazing. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: Right? Like you start with just two loaves and two fish, and you can feed a multitude. Daniel: No. Kevin: Somebody should make a game of that, the feeding of the 5,000. That's Daniel: The Kevin: a very Daniel: feeding Kevin: Euro Daniel: of the Kevin: moment. Daniel: 5,000, it is a very, how can you convert five loaves and five loaves cubes and two fish cubes into. Kevin: as we know in the Gospel of Matthew, Velcro. Daniel: Velcro, that's the what's happening now translation. If you take the original Greek, it can be translated as fish, it can also be translated as Velcro. Yeah, Kevin: It was Velcro, yes. Daniel: because did you know Kevin, originally fish was kind of an ancient Velcro, the scales, Kevin: I did not know Daniel: once Kevin: that. Daniel: you dry them and kind of fluff them up a little bit, it served as a kind of Velcro. And so, Kevin: And they had to discover that because they used to slap people with fish, right? Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: But Daniel: right. Kevin: it's only Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: when the fish were dry Daniel: the Kevin: it Daniel: well-known, Kevin: would stick in their beards Daniel: it would Kevin: because Daniel: stick Kevin: the Daniel: in their Kevin: Romans Daniel: beards. Kevin: had beards. And Daniel: That's Kevin: that's Daniel: right. Kevin: how Daniel: And Kevin: they... Daniel: then they would exclaim in Latin if they were Roman or Greek if it was the common tongue, forsooth, Kevin: Ave. Daniel: it doth act like, I don't know why Latin and Greek is suddenly. medieval English, but it does act like Velcro. We shall call this Velcro. It Kevin: Yes. Daniel: is veritably, it Kevin: Vell is Latin for Daniel: is Kevin: fish, Daniel: sticky. It Kevin: right? Daniel: is, yeah, and crow for stick. So Velcro is the fish stick. Kevin: Veshti... Hehehehehehe And that's why we eat fish sticks today kids. Daniel: Oh Kevin: Amen. Well, Daniel, Daniel: That's great. Kevin: we want to let our listeners know that they can have more Borgame Faith joy by checking us out on Instagram, Borgame Faith, and we are on YouTube, and we are a... So that's an audio-visual platform, or we're audio-only as a podcast, Borgame Faith, and we have a newsletter, which is a linguistic... written linguistic mode of interaction. Is that fair? Daniel: It, right, that's right. We're, Kevin: alphabet based. Daniel: it's text-based. Kevin: It's text. I couldn't remember to call it. It's text based. That's it. Text Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: based. We have our newsletter and you can subscribe to that. Just go to boardgamefaith.com and subscribe to our newsletter and we're about to wrap up the world's most awesome contest. Daniel: That's right. That's right, yeah. For in celebration of 1,000 followers on Instagram, we are having a contest where we are. inviting folks to show us their board game faith, to send in photos of themselves with some of their favorite board games at their place of worship, whatever that might look like for you. Might be a traditional church or mosque or synagogue or temple. It might be someplace in nature or someplace that's sacred to you. And if you would, post that on Instagram with the hashtag board game faith. That's how we find you. to be three prize winners for that and we're excited to announce those prize winners shortly. Kevin: Yes, that's right. So show us your board game faith. It's been awesome, Daniel. Thank you. Daniel: Kevin, I love hanging out with you. You're an awesome guy. I would gladly play Ameritrash or Euro with you anytime. All Kevin: Yes, Daniel: right. Kevin: that's the best. You're the best, Daniel. Bye! Daniel: You too, thanks. Bye everybody, thanks for listening.