Daniel (00:06.754) So what do the cross and the resurrection of Jesus have to do with games and play? Do they have anything to do with games and play? These are the questions that a man named Jurgen Moltmann wrestled with over 50 years ago in a fascinating book titled theology of play, and they're the We're considering today on part three of our discussion of Jürgen Moltmann's Theology of Play, this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games! Daniel (01:04.514) Hello everybody. Hello, hi Kevin, how are ya? Kevin (01:04.726) Hello Daniel, hello. I'm good, I'm good. How are you? Daniel (01:11.586) doing fine. Thank you. It's good to see you. It's good to hear your voice. It's good to welcome to the podcast all of our listeners. If you're listening to the podcast or viewers, if you're watching us on YouTube, thank you so much for joining us. We're glad to have you here. My name is Daniel, the board game faithful as we like to call our fam. Kevin (01:27.722) board game faithful. The board game faithful. Yes. Daniel (01:37.93) which is the word I like to call family. It's a hip new phrase, the fam. La familia is the fam. So yes, so my name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin (01:41.027) Bright. Kevin (01:44.983) La Familia. Kevin (01:50.666) My name's Kevin Taylor. Daniel (01:54.527) And we welcome all of you board game faithful fam. It's great to have you here, whether this is the first time you're listening to us or whether you've listened to us before, welcome. This is the show where we take a look at matters of religion and spirituality and games and play. And we're so grateful to have you along for the ride. So Kevin, what's happening in your world? Kevin (01:58.914) That's right. Kevin (02:06.67) That's right. Kevin (02:17.386) Yeah. Well, Halloween is tomorrow, and that's become kind of an international holiday, I think, mostly due to American culture. Like it's being celebrated in lots of places. And of course, that's consumerism and capitalism, because... Daniel (02:23.514) Green is tomorrow. Daniel (02:33.942) Yeah. Kevin (02:41.162) You can make some money selling candy and costumes. So that's gonna probably grow in lots of countries. But yeah, that's tomorrow. I think it's supposed to rain in the morning. and it'll be cool tomorrow night, sir. Daniel (02:54.076) Is Halloween a big thing in your household? I talked over you. Sorry. Kevin (02:56.638) You know, our kids are older now, they're teenagers. There might be some wandering around the neighborhood, but it's really kind of a little kid thing to go around for candy. And the sad bit is so many, I don't know, our culture is so focused on holidays now, so many little kids have been trick or treating like six times already, because they do it in the school and they do it. You know, and the after school, everyone's like, let's go trick or treating, and it's a week before. It's kind of like Thanksgiving. You can end up with three Thanksgiving meals if you're not careful. Daniel (03:21.643) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (03:26.742) That's true, that is true. No, you're right. Kristin and I bought, I think, I think around 400 pieces of candy for our Halloween season and we went to our church's kind of Halloween event, like a lot of churches do something, trunk or treat, I think it's called, a few nights ago. And we gave, we ended up giving out all of our Halloween candies. No, we gotta go out and get some more. Yeah, you're right. There are multiple. Kevin (03:28.034) Yeah. Daniel (03:57.21) trick-or-treating opportunities. Kevin (03:59.606) best is if your kids are trick-or-treating and they have some of those, what you do is you recycle the candy because they generally can't eat it all anyway. So there's just a candy tax that half their candy then gets reused Halloween night, assuming they've already trick-or-treated. So, yeah. Daniel (04:16.015) That's a good idea. Does this count for candy you've taken out of the wrapper as well? Can you like put it back in the wrapper or yeah? Yeah Kevin (04:19.87) It does it does let's say you didn't like it. Um, you can wrap it back up or not You can just sort of make a massive congealed spittle spit spittle can spit spittoon Of candy. Yeah, I mean you've got to They say we're too clean these days. That's why we have allergies. Um, we need a little more Daniel (04:29.578) Yeah, yeah, I don't see anything wrong with that. Yeah. I. Daniel (04:39.671) It introduces a little seed of building up the immune system for the next person. Kevin (04:46.922) It's sort of a vaccine through your mouth. And that's called disease. Daniel (04:49.558) a vaccine through your mouth. I like that. It's called disease. Kevin (04:56.722) Also your eye holes. Yeah. Well, that's the worst. They're like, don't touch your eyes. And you're like, oh my God, I really want to touch my eyes right now. They're so itchy cause you said that. It's no fair. I know. It's so funny, the power suggestion. Well, we have a special guest today, Daniel. This special guest isn't even a person, but instead it self identifies as a book. Daniel (04:59.834) I don't see anything. Daniel (05:03.77) My eyes were so itchy! Yeah, yeah. I can't... I gotta touch my eyes right now, I'm just talking about it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel (05:19.29) What? Yeah, well, that's right. And... Kevin (05:24.202) Because it is, it's the theology of play, the book. Daniel (05:27.342) Theology of Play, the book, welcome Theology of Play, the book. We're glad to have you here. Kevin (05:31.458) We'll have to... now the theology of play the book does not have a mouth or breath apparatus, so it can't speak, so we'll have to speak for it. Daniel (05:43.294) I think we should imagine what it would say. I think like right now it would say, I'm happy to be here. Good, okay, cute. Kevin (05:51.605) Did you know that a book and an iron lung is the exact same conversation? Daniel (05:55.726) Really fascinating, fascinating. That's years of research have yielded that kind of, that's great. And who, who is the author of this, um, this book? Kevin (05:59.37) I know. Yeah. Neither can really speak. Three years of research there. Yeah, yes. Kevin (06:09.434) Jurgen Moltmann, still alive, quite elderly at this point, born in 1926. He was a German Reformed theologian, so reform meaning Presbyterian is what we would kind of call it here in the U.S., but reformed tradition of the Protestant stream of Christianity, right? There in Germany, and he was a professor emeritus, a retired professor. Daniel (06:12.855) Yeah! Daniel (06:33.198) Mm-hmm. Kevin (06:37.814) systematic theology at the university of Tubigen. Tubigen? You say it. Tubigen. I think your German's better than mine. Daniel (06:46.979) I think. I'm sure my pronunciation isn't perfect either. Kevin (06:53.251) I just try to sing those years that have the little... Daniel (06:55.542) Yeah. The umlauts. Umlauts rock. Yeah. I like, I like that. Tubing and... Kevin (06:58.654) yeah, the Cobra Strike. Cobra Strike. To you begin. Known, and he is known for many books in the religious and theological world, and so we're focusing on this particular one. And he served, which is the Theology of Play, which had a different title in German that we'll reference. I'll grab that later because I don't have right in front of me. But yeah, he was a pastor and a professor, was a POW, because he was fighting for Nazi Germany as a young German boy recruited into the war, but he surrendered and abandoned the German army and became a POW, and then became a Christian. So, quite a dramatic story. Daniel (07:47.434) What a journey. And thank you, Kevin, yeah, for that introduction to him. And if this is your first time listening to us, we want you to know this book is not in print anymore. But it's also one of the few books out there specifically about what the subject of this podcast is, religion and games, religion and play. And so we've been slowly going through it, taking about 10 pages at a time. Kevin (08:09.846) That's right. Daniel (08:15.894) So this is part three. If you want to hear the first two parts, you can look back on our previous episodes. But this time we're considering pages 25 through 36, I believe if that's very interesting to you, Kevin. Yeah. So Kevin (08:28.99) Right. Yeah, so it is out of print. You might get lucky and find a used copy on Amazon or eBay. Or a local library, university library may have a copy on the shelf, but it is unfortunately difficult to find. I wish it was out of print and then we could just share it, but it is, or I'm sorry, out of copyright, I meant to say. Yeah. You know, if we were doing Charles Dickens Great Expectations, no problem. Copyright's wide open on that one. Daniel (08:49.3) Oh, okay, okay. Daniel (08:59.138) we should do the theology of play of great expectations. Kevin (09:02.518) I've never read it. I know vaguely, or have I? No, I don't. I don't. I don't. Daniel (09:08.906) I read it a long time ago and the only thing I remember is Mrs. Haversham, who is this kind of like spooky woman who's never left her house for like 50 years and there's like and like there are all these drapes and dusty stuff and she and she can't and like anyway that's that I remember Mrs. Haversham she sounds like she Kevin (09:13.953) Uh-huh. Kevin (09:21.986) Weird. Daniel (09:36.15) I don't know why she didn't leave her house, I forget. Maybe she was playing board games all that time. But anyway, that was the. Kevin (09:42.958) She was playing chess by mail and had to wait for the new move to come in the mail. Didn't want to miss the mailman, the postman. Who only rang once and so sometimes she missed him. Yeah, very sad. Daniel (09:44.758) Chess by mail, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (09:52.414) She missed him. Yeah, yeah. So this section we were talking before we started recording, I think we both find kind of one of the more engaging sections we've read so far. It's really interesting. He begins with just cutting very directly to some of the core matters of the Christian faith. And we should say also, if this is your first time listening, both... Kevin and I are Christian pastors, Methodist pastors, but we try to be an ecumenical show. We have had guests before from various traditions, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, atheist. But in this particular episode, we're talking about a Christian theologian. So we'll be kind of living, especially in that world. And he cuts in this section to kind of this, the heart of, much of the heart of Christian theology and talking about the cross and the resurrection of Jesus, right? Kevin (10:38.913) Mm-hmm. Daniel (10:52.443) as part of this discussion of play in theology. So. Kevin (10:56.45) Right, right. Yeah, and the looming question for him is, there's so many problems in the world, terrible disease and wars and famines and global epidemics. What's the place of games and play? Jesus didn't tell us to play games, and he... So what's the basis for Christians engaging in play, I think is the looming question, given... Daniel (11:23.138) Right. Kevin (11:26.134) giving global and local concerns and problems. Daniel (11:29.654) And I think maybe for him, and currently, if you disagree, Kevin, but I think maybe for him, the central Christian metaphor for all those things that make us feel like we shouldn't play suffering, war, poverty, hunger, injustice, the central symbol for that in our Christian vocabulary is the cross, you know? So how can we play in the face of the suffering in the world? How can we play in the face of the cross, you know? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (11:49.613) Right. Kevin (11:54.006) Yeah, suffering God. So, shouldn't... aren't we supposed to suffer too? Or shouldn't we take things more seriously because God or Jesus died for us? So, yeah. Daniel (12:04.758) Yeah, yeah. And it feels like he starts to explore that question in terms of how can we play in the face of the cross by exploring kind of what the cross means and what did it mean that Jesus died. And, and he kind of explores some, some interesting approaches to understanding the cross that I don't think we necessarily readily hear in our in our society today. It's out there, but not necessarily things we hear a lot. So, yeah, I said, I mean, is that something you like to would you like, would you like to delve into a little bit that, Kevin, or would you like me to in terms of starting that off? Now, I'm happy to. Are you using a sports metaphor? Kevin (12:42.277) Mm-hmm. Kevin (12:46.358) I think Daniel just passed me the ball. So I'm supposed to, I'm, it's, what, yeah. That's exactly what I was trying to do. I was like, I said first down and four. How did they say in football? Daniel (12:57.09) That's great. I used my hockey stick to pass you the ball. I did. Kevin (13:07.046) And I think there's a flag. I'm trying to shoot towards a little flag on the hill outside of the arena On the side of the basket if I can get in there and one I get a hole and I get a birdie To take home with me a little bird Right, yes. Yes, so a Very simple way Christians often talk about the cross unfortunately is that Daniel (13:11.694) and the flags on the side of the basket. That's right. Daniel (13:19.458) That's exactly right. That's exactly right, yeah. Hehehehe Kevin (13:35.874) people are sinners and then Jesus died to pay the price of that or to overcome the sin or pay the guilt of the sin and you should be grateful. And that's kind of, is that fair? Like this gets packaged as the four spiritual laws or just a very simple message about who is Jesus, what did he do? And Moltmann saying, hey, Moltmann is throwing a flag on that play. Daniel (13:57.132) Right. Kevin (14:04.982) that exposition by saying, well, I know, I'm full of them. I'm gonna be an ESPN commentator soon. So Moltmann says, now hang on, there's a lot more to it than what than just what you've outlined, because Jesus was, as God incarnated, that tells us something. God who created the world has also taken on the human, both Daniel (14:05.379) Oh, another sports. Kevin (14:36.514) and that Jesus taught and did things, and Jesus was resurrected from the dead. So this means that it's not just about doom and gloom and death and penalty, but it's about something else as well, especially in the idea that Jesus' resurrection is sort of a new creation, and is a return to Eden in some ways, and also a amplification of Eden. Daniel (14:58.217) Mm-hmm. Kevin (15:05.45) So it's, yeah, what would you add to that, Daniel? Daniel (15:06.719) Mm-hmm. Daniel (15:09.994) No, I love that. Yeah, that's well said. And you're always so good at lifting up those themes that kind of prefigure and point to kind of Eden and paradise and utopia. Yeah, I agree. And I find... Kevin (15:20.964) Oh, thank you. Daniel (15:28.118) I guess one theological term for this might be the atonement, right? But it's basically our attempts to answer the question, why did Jesus die? And I don't know about you, in your experience as a pastor, Kevin, but I find as a pastor that this is always a tricky thing to talk about because for a lot of people it's such a Kevin (15:40.949) Mm-hmm. Daniel (15:54.954) a sacred subject, right, such a precious subject. And to offer different ways of talking about it can often be really challenging to folks, or almost kind of upsetting to folks. I've found it tricky, but it's this idea that, you know, when Jesus died, Daniel (16:18.414) the early followers of Jesus found themselves in grief, right? And the church in some ways kind of faced this grief, the early church faced this grief. And... they did what humans have always done, which is in the face of grief, in the face of what seems like. irrational loss and loss in some ways always kind of feels irrational. They try to make sense of it, right? Like, why did this happen? Right? This doesn't, you know, this doesn't make sense. And which we often do in the face of grief. Why did this person die? Or why did this bad thing happen? And right, and I think one tradition that developed in response to that is exactly what you're saying. You know, that this, that, you know, we're sinful people and so Jesus had to die. Kevin (16:49.466) Mm-hmm. Daniel (17:09.55) so that we could be forgiven, right? And for a lot of people, that's a, you know, I just recognize that's a very, you know, meaningful and important part of their faith and... Kevin (17:20.906) I mean, yeah, and it's a true statement. That is a very Christian statement, but what? Daniel (17:24.518) Yeah, yeah. But then it's also, but there are some challenges, or not some challenges, but there are some challenging implications of that. You know, if we kind of explore that, what does it say about God? You know, what does it say about us? What does it say about Jesus? And right, exactly. You know, like I, we may or may not want to get into this and Kevin (17:42.026) Yeah, it's only really a partial truth. Yeah. Daniel (17:54.41) We can even go back and cut this out later on, kind of if you want to. But you know, I kind of frame it like this sort of, it's kind of like if we said, you know, you're going to love my dad. When you meet my dad, he's going to be great. You're going to see that he's really a wonderful, loving dad. Now, by the way, when you meet him, he can't tolerate any sinfulness. And so, you know, since you're sinful, he's going to kill me when you meet him, just so that he doesn't kill you. But you're going to see how great he is then. You know? And it kind of feels like that. Is your dad really loving then? This isn't anything we would ascribe to human beings. And so it kind of creates these challenges. And so I think when Moltmann kind of pushes a little bit is to say, Jesus' death on the cross. Kevin (18:25.902) Yeah. Right, right. Daniel (18:44.122) coupled with his resurrection is the point, right? And that it's not simply kind of like a plan B that God had to come up with in response to our sinfulness. That it reveals something inherent and integral to the nature of God, Jesus, cross and resurrection coupled together. Kevin (18:48.438) Mm-hmm. Daniel (19:11.938) that would be true regardless of whether we were sinful or not, in a way. Does that vibe with your reading of it or with just, what are your thoughts on any of that? Yeah, yeah. Kevin (19:21.494) Yeah, no, it does. It does. And I think this was a debate in the Middle Ages, Thomas Aquinas and theologians, of what Jesus had come and been incarnated without human sin or not, and it's very speculative. But yes, it's more than simply a remedy for sin. It's more than simply a salve on a wound. It's actually a transformative moment. It's a recreation, so it's like the act of creation being done in a different key, is what he's trying to point to with the resurrection. So his comment, God's love, he says, goes beyond his mercy and beyond man's misery, so that would be the sin notion, it reaches beyond the mere restoration of the sick to the healthy state of the new life. Daniel (19:50.882) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (19:56.918) Right, right. Daniel (20:11.724) Mm-hmm. Daniel (20:17.842) Mm. So how would we put that in today's language? Like, what is in Moltmann's view? Kevin (20:18.466) So it's a great line there. Daniel (20:29.858) the point of Jesus. And I think when he talks about the point of Jesus, he means kind of his life and death and resurrection, kind of all of that together. What? Kevin (20:36.982) Yeah, and I'm glad you said that. I think that's a key bit, is he wants to think of Jesus in his full context. It's not just his death, but it is his... it's not just the cross. It's his birth, his life, his ministry, his teaching, and his resurrection. Yeah, absolutely. You know, if we stick with the illness analogy, that health is not just getting over a virus, it's actually being in a state of mental and physical well-being. Daniel (20:42.774) Right. It's not just the cross. Yeah, yeah, which we often boil it down to today. Daniel (21:05.81) Mm-hmm. Kevin (21:06.99) So you could be overweight and depressed and then get a terrible virus, you know, stomach bug. And then you get over it, but you're still larger state. Now you're depressed. Now you got over an illness, but you're still in a state of this, of unhealth because you're mentally and physically not as healthy as you could be. Daniel (21:27.192) Mm-hmm. Daniel (21:32.938) Health is more than just the absence of a particular illness. It's, yeah, yeah. Kevin (21:35.346) Yes, yes, health is more than the absence of disease, it's actually a flourishing. And so this idea of the resurrection is more than just overcoming sin, it's about human flourishing. That's how I would think of it. And another bit to connect this to is, as you were hinting at earlier, what does it say about God? I think he's wanting to connect the resurrection Daniel (21:40.312) Mmm, mmm, mmm. Kevin (22:05.186) with God's creation, both of them were not necessary. It's something God chooses to do. Daniel (22:11.726) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (22:13.686) So it's not a random roll of the dice that God creates the world, nor is it something God had to do. And the cross and the resurrection were similarly intentional, but indicate that God can kind of be a god of play. Daniel (22:20.716) Right. Daniel (22:31.122) Yeah, yeah. And I think Momod really kind of goes to great efforts to say, you know, in this section that, you know, he doesn't see the cross as playful, right? You know, the cross, he says, I think he said, the cross is not play, the cross is not a game, but the resurrection is, right? The resurrection is playful. What do you think he's trying to get at when he talks about that? Kevin (22:42.923) Right. Daniel (22:56.446) Or I could ask myself that too. I'm asking you because I don't know. Ha ha ha. Kevin (23:00.938) Oh, well, I'm guessing that there's some that might say, well, Christianity's focused on the cross and Good Friday, and we should be playing games. In fact, playing games is what the centurions were doing while Jesus died when they were casting lots for his clothing and stuff. And Moltmann's like, yeah, you're right. That's not a that's not an appropriate response to the fact that Jesus died this terrible death as a criminal and is rejected by. by religious leaders and one of the great political jurists of the day, you know, of Roman Empire. That's not the basis for games. The basis for games is the joy of the resurrection. So he wants to ground it something different because he agrees that you don't go to a good Friday service at church and play bingo. That's just kind of weird. That would not jive. But Easter morning? Sure. Daniel (23:55.222) Right, right. No. Yeah. Kevin (24:00.618) In fact, he says, I didn't look the footnote, but he makes the comment that traditionally Easter sermons used to begin with a joke. Yeah. I could just... Yeah, I don't know what he's pulling from, but I just picture some weird Puritan preacher, and he's like, I have joke... I don't know what... I'm gonna give him like a Schwarzenegger accent type thing. I have joke for you! Daniel (24:08.89) Isn't that great? I had no idea that was the case. Kevin (24:28.65) Knock knock and everyone's just like, oh god, this guy's so not funny. This is the worst part of Easter. It's funny, yes. No, it's not. It's not funny at all. Daniel (24:32.192) Why? This is the worst part of Easter. I'm going to endure this joke. This joke. That's right. Yeah, that's great. I'm going to start my next Easter sermon with, I'm going to say, yeah, knock knock. That's going to be the... Yeah, that's... Kevin (24:46.498) Ahem. Kevin (24:51.874) Knock knock. Aren't you glad I didn't say... me now. But would be a good one for Easter. Aren't you glad I didn't have another joke? Daniel (25:05.206) That's right. I'm glad I did. You know, there is this thing that reminds me. of this idea of Daniel (25:20.238) two seemingly opposing concepts needing each other for either one to exist. And I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. I think we've talked about this before in a previous episode, but there's this idea that I really think is true, that in some very real ways, that grief and love are two names for the same reality. Daniel (25:49.87) There is a way to never to grieve in life and that's never to love, right? And that grief is the experience of love when what you love isn't there anymore. But it's the same, it's two names for the same emotion, the same reality. I have mentioned before that I really like reading Thich Nhat Hanh, who is a Buddhist author, who has a deep appreciation for Christianity. He died very recently. as of the recording of this episode. You know, and Thich Nhat Hanh talks about the same thing as suffering and joy, that they're kind of two sides of the same coin and you can't really know one without the other. He went so far to say is he didn't want to live in a reality without suffering, because he thought that kind of reality couldn't have joy in it either. And I wonder kind of the same thing with resurrection and the cross too, that... Daniel (26:48.602) you know, we couldn't know resurrection without the cross, you know, that they're kind of two sides of the same route. They need each other to exist, maybe. And I wonder if that's maybe what Moltmann was kind of getting at a little bit as well. What do you think? Maybe I'm just reading into it. Yeah. Kevin (27:07.134) Um, yeah, I'd have to think some more about that. And I certainly, grief and love are strangely intertwined in our reality here, and they do spring from similar sources. But ultimately, I don't know, love is wanting to be with someone or grow closer to them, and grief is loss. Daniel (27:28.119) Yeah. Kevin (27:34.782) So sometimes they're known in one another, but I'm not sure if they're the two sides of the same coin. I'd have to think. But he's on to something certainly, and yes, in Jesus' resurrected form he still has his scars, and the resurrection would not make sense about the cross, and in some ways the cross would make sense on the resurrection because why would God do that? I mean, that's kind of the question for the disciples is he shouldn't go to Jerusalem. Why would you do that? Why would you risk? Daniel (27:40.279) Mm-hmm. Sure, sure. Daniel (27:48.18) Mm-hmm. Daniel (28:00.632) Right. Kevin (28:06.89) physically being near the authorities you've antagonized already. So yeah, I think you're right, he's almost on to a mature level of dealing with joy and sadness, and it makes me think of how sometimes after a funeral people might be laughing, and you might think, why are these people laughing? This person died, it's a funeral, or after a funeral. And the reason is they haven't been together a long time. Daniel (28:10.808) Right. Kevin (28:32.158) So their family members that are reading quite and they might be actually laughing at something funny that the deceased person used to do and it's not a laughter that's mocking. It's a laughter that's kind of joyful because they're sharing a memory. So joy and sadness are strangely connected. I mean, what are you going to do when you're laying in a hospital bed? You kind of would like someone to maybe tell you some jokes to break up. Right. Or to visit with you or maybe even laugh at you. Daniel (28:45.239) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (28:58.358) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (29:01.431) It's, they're not, they're not enemies. They're not allergic to one another. Yeah. Daniel (29:05.982) No, no I love that what? Yeah, no. Kevin (29:09.942) What do you think? How would you phrase it? But yeah, to me, it's like a maturity of being able to live with both and watching the wires cross sometimes. Daniel (29:15.147) Yeah. I love that, that's so well said. It reminds me, one of the weirdest and most beautiful and holiest moments I've had in a hospital was a long, long time ago. I worked as a hospital chaplain intern, just as for part of the church process of ordination. Kevin (29:35.15) Mm-hmm. Daniel (29:41.198) the chaplain's job in that particular hospital is you were in the room whenever somebody died. And so saw a lot of people and their families at moments of death. But there was this one family that I remember, it was a dad, I forget his age, let's say maybe about, I don't know, 70 or so, 60 or 70. His wife was there, probably same age, 60 or 70. And the daughter was there being about 40, 30 or 40 or so. And they just had this great sense of humor. But of course they were also, I mean, they were weeping, they were grieving, you know, just tears all over their face. He was passing away. And finally, I shouldn't say finally, but this moment came when the dad died, you know, and the heart monitor, you know, it just, you know, it flatlined and, you know, he, there was this moment when he died. And they were weeping and grieving and it was awful. But then also the daughter reached over and, grabbed the chin of her dead father and moved his chin up and down with her hand and kind of like a puppet and with her own voice made him say, well, I'm dead. And they just broke up laughing. They thought it was so hilarious. And I loved that moment. It was weird. It was bizarre, but it was like holy and beautiful too. Kevin (30:52.442) Oh my gosh. Daniel (31:03.766) And it was entirely appropriate in that moment for that family. And I would never tell any other family to do that, but that was right for that family. And it was holy and it was grief and it was laughter all at the same time. And it was really neat. It was really cool. Yeah. You know, but you're right. You're right. I mean, there's something about, we feel like, oh, we feel like, we feel like. Kevin (31:13.39) That is funny. That is strange. I mean, that's like a Monty Python bit. Gosh. Daniel (31:32.071) We feel like the reality of death and suffering in the cross means that it's bad, right, for us to also have laughter or joy. And it reminds me of what Moltmann says in this passage where he says, we cannot play as long as we feel guilt, right? He connects guilt to play. And he says that the guilty person cannot play, right? As long as we feel like we have to bear the weight of this... Kevin (31:38.794) Mm-hmm. Kevin (31:49.462) Right. Kevin (31:55.842) Mm-hmm. Daniel (32:04.068) of this suffering and heartache in such a way that... I don't know, that there's a guilt to it or a kind of... that we can't find ourselves, we can't give ourselves permission to play or experience joy, maybe even at the same time. There's a song I love called My Joy is Heavy. It talks about the heavy kind of joy that comes in life. Anyway, you want to say something, I'm sorry. Kevin (32:27.531) Yeah. Kevin (32:32.302) Mm-hmm. No, no, there's a there's a fan. It might be Nietzsche, the philosopher Nietzsche, but there's some line somewhere along here. Someone else commented. It's it's something it's like it's weird how the redeemed don't look more like it. Basically ripping on Christians for being so dour and sour and racked with. Daniel (32:51.13) Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe Kevin (32:58.626) personal guilt or whatever when the truth is if you've been redeemed you think you would be Set free and you would be joyful and he was right in that comment that The point of Christianity is not to make you feel bad is to make you feel good Daniel (33:05.475) Yeah. Daniel (33:16.602) Where does that idea come from that we have to be dour and somber? I think this kind of relates to what Miltman's talking about. Kevin (33:24.65) it does, I think it's partly social control, and that's how parents and institutions and groups often try to exert control is making kids and people feel guilty. Well, you know, if you don't put in your 10% tie, then you're a bad Christian, or you need to go to church every week, neither which is exactly in the Bible. Like, hopefully you want to go to church. or whatever your house of worship is, but the guilt is institutions talking. Daniel (33:56.982) Yeah, guilt is, it gets a lot of work done for institutions. Kevin (34:04.15) Yeah, so it's power. I think that's a powerful way to talk and people are naturally guilty you You see it with toddlers and others that when they get in trouble or corrected they immediately shame and guilt are kind of a basic part of our psyche and so I think I guess to me if If you had lord of the flies and kids on an island, they would naturally develop forms of guilt and shame And then various groups can amplify that and seek to control it Daniel (34:18.008) Yeah. Daniel (34:27.289) Hmm. Kevin (34:33.958) know, yeah, I don't, it's a great question, but it's something to struggle with. And Christianity's message, yes, we are sinful and we do have guilt, but actually you don't. Right, that's the big surprise is it actually, it's been removed. Daniel (34:55.758) Yeah, I wonder if this relates to what one's talking about with the cross, and that understanding of the cross that he kind of tries to gently poke at that we mentioned at the beginning of our discussion. I mean, if our fundamental understanding of Jesus is that we got Jesus killed Kevin (34:59.406) Mm-hmm. Daniel (35:24.45) because of what horrible people we are, that this one who reveals God and shows love, Christianity asserts more perfectly than any other one we've seen, that this human being of such great love got killed because of how horrible we are. Daniel (35:58.828) How could we not feel like the point of all of this is guilt? You know what I mean? I mean, it kind of sets us up for a lifetime of guilt and shame. Kevin (36:02.752) Right. Kevin (36:06.698) It does. It does. And I guess that's an easier message. It fits on a little pamphlet or brochure or... And it's not that it's untrue, but it's not the whole truth. Right? I mean... Daniel (36:11.787) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (36:22.466) Yeah, and I wonder if it's true in different ways than what we think it's true. You know what I mean? Maybe as well. Kevin (36:27.798) Yes, that's probably fair. Daniel (36:31.978) I don't know. I don't know. We need to figure out Christianity in this hour podcast talking about board games. Kevin (36:42.254) But I love these things are so mysterious because they point to, I think they point to their ultimate truths, which is that they're paradoxical. Daniel (36:51.51) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (36:53.666) if it was a neat little package or like, oh. This seems a bit convenient, but instead it's a big old hot mess. Daniel (37:01.834) Right, right. Which I think you're right, kind of speaks to the truth of all of this. If it were something we could easily figure out, it probably wouldn't be true. Kevin (37:12.171) Right. Kevin (37:15.93) And when you mention the guilt too, it's kind of odd as I think about like the New Testament. There's not a lot of people moping around with guilt, right? Paul doesn't do that. Daniel (37:25.939) Mm-hmm. Kevin (37:29.826) There is a bit when Jesus says to Peter, feed my sheep, and it's clearly him kind of referencing Peter's betrayal, but... but it's just a short passage, but there's not really a lot of people wallowing in guilt in the Bible. Is that fair? Daniel (37:47.67) Right, right. I absolutely, and I, that's a really good point to make. I mean, and surely there are moments of guilt, but. Kevin (37:52.022) I'm trying to think of counter examples and I can't. So that's a mistake. Yeah, because guilt's part of the human experience. Daniel (38:00.63) Right, right. And an important part of the human experience. When we do something wrong, it's important to feel guilt, you know, but it, but you're right. That's a great point, because I think that's an excellent, that's really good, Kevin, because I, because I think that's something fundamental about God too. I mean, what does it say about God if we think that God's highest dream for us is just to live 80 years of feeling guilty and then die? You know, I mean, what kind of God is that? Kevin (38:06.198) Yeah, it has its place, it has its place. Kevin (38:29.063) Right? Right, right. Daniel (38:30.934) That's, I mean, it's not a very loving, I mean, I don't think a loving God... No, right, right. Kevin (38:33.79) And do we find that in the Gospels? No. I mean, Jesus condemns hypocrisy and condemns people, but He doesn't encourage them to be guilty. Daniel (38:42.578) Right, right, right. Kevin (38:46.689) Interesting. Daniel (38:47.598) And then this brings up, I think, the last part, yeah, which is something that a lot of Christians specifically, I think, feel guilt over or can feel guilt over, which we got to maybe do a little bit, questions of purpose, questions of purpose. And Montmann says here in the last part of our Kevin (38:50.09) Ooh, segue bell. Daniel (39:15.638) of our reading today. Daniel (39:20.758) Well, I'm kind of paraphrasing in my own words, but... Daniel (39:26.55) that the final purpose of history is the is liberation from the tyranny of purpose, liberation from the tyranny of needing to have a purpose. And here's a quote that I like from Ultman, this is page 34, Ultman says, life which is made meaningful by purposes and goals must find the vision of heaven terrible. Kevin (39:35.938) Hmm. Daniel (39:54.922) since that vision only invites infinite and purposeless boredom. Daniel (40:02.078) Christian eschatology, eschatology is kind of a fancy theological word, meaning just kind of like the study of the end things, the study of the end times, the end of all things. Christian eschatology has never thought of the end of history as a kind of retirement or payday. Kevin (40:09.283) Mm-hmm. Kevin (40:18.298) Mmm. Ooh. So good. Daniel (40:19.098) But I love this idea that a life which is built... And the idea that purpose and goals are essential for us having meaning is a life which can't tolerate. the idea of heaven because then it seems purposeless. Right? I don't know, any thoughts on that? Kevin (40:41.195) Right. Kevin (40:46.142) Yeah, I mean... I have mixed thoughts, to be honest. I love the idea that we are more than our jobs or vocations or purpose. It's hard for me to think, though, that we could exist as humans without some sense of purpose. So if you think of utopia, I get that... you don't have to have a purpose, but it seems like life would still be nice to have a purpose. We're goal-setting creatures. Daniel (40:51.063) Yeah. Kevin (41:13.974) But maybe the difference is it's a goal you set. You know, you're going to run an ultra marathon and utopia type thing. Because I think if we don't have purpose, then we're just kind of. Kevin (41:29.954) Seems like most everything has a purpose. Like the squirrels exist to destroy things and the deer exist to be hit by cars. And my cat exists to ignore us. So yeah, it's hard to think of us without purpose. I'm not sure I like the purposelessness, but I, or vocationlessness, but I'm not sure it's quite what he means. And maybe that's a translation issue. I think it's more of, I think what he's getting at is we don't have to do things. We're not coerced. Whereas in this life, you are coerced because you've got to pay the bills, you've got to pay the mortgage, you've got to cut your fingernails and all that stuff. Daniel (42:11.306) Is there a difference between meaning and purpose? Kevin (42:18.283) Mmm. Daniel (42:20.542) I found myself asking, thinking through all this stuff. Kevin (42:23.926) Purpose, I think of, and I'm not looking it up, and I should, you know, we should be looking this up, but purpose, I think of as having a goal, a destination, and moving towards it. Meaning may not be related to purpose. Like, I could see a pretty butterfly go by the window and think, oh, there's meaning. That's meaningful because of its beauty, and the fact that I wasn't expecting it. It was an unexpected moment of beauty. Daniel (42:51.514) Mm-hmm. Kevin (42:52.066) So that to me would be random purposelessness, right? That just happened to fly by as I looked. Kevin (43:00.042) Now, side note, I've been doing some reading on astrology and stuff related to Dante, because Dante has some judgments in astrology. So much of astrology and other things, the idea is somehow everything is all connected. So the planet Mercury is connected to your birth if you were born under the sign of Mercury. You see it a little bit in the Bible, because remember the Magi follow the star, and that was astrology. Daniel (43:26.594) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (43:28.786) So the port somehow, what happens in the skies is connected to what happens on Earth. Daniel (43:38.339) Hmm. Kevin (43:40.426) So are they just random events or are they purposeful? I don't know, I don't tend to, I mean, I personally don't believe the planets have anything to do with anything. So besides just. Daniel (43:40.823) That's interesting. Daniel (43:44.524) Hmm. Kevin (43:53.398) the fact of the galaxy, right? Daniel (43:56.598) Right, right. Kevin (43:59.122) So it'd be very, very different. I guess it's thinking about a world of omens. I'm totally off-subject, I need to cut this out. But just think about omens, right? And things are connected, and like, oh, I saw a black crow today, that must mean something. There's that kind of practice or beliefs or spirituality. And there are Christians that do this too. They believe that there's signs from angels or whatever. But that's not purposeful either. Well, I guess it's the world having purpose, but you don't, because it's random. Daniel (44:05.162) No, no, you're good. I don't think it's, I don't think it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (44:17.846) Yes, yes, yes. Daniel (44:25.166) Well, but... Kevin (44:29.803) What? Go ahead. Go for it. Daniel (44:31.132) Mmm. No, no, wait, I want to let you finish, but you're saying such good things. Kevin (44:33.362) No, I'm totally out of steam. I'm exhaust. I am in such a corner Daniel. I have painted myself in a corner I don't even know what's going on Daniel (44:40.371) I think in that corner you have found a door and opened it up to a new universe. Kevin (44:44.918) only because you pointed it out to me. It was right, I actually ran into it. I didn't even know the doorknob left me stick. Daniel (44:49.141) No, no, no. Daniel (44:55.098) Uh, no, no. I think it's great. No, it reminds me. Well, okay. Yeah. Just so many things. Um, oh, this is so, oh, you're so good. Um. Daniel (45:06.219) So I... Daniel (45:10.026) And I am just, I guess, just to name this claim, I'm just kind of seeing it through the lens of my own experience and journey. And so I apologize if it seems kind of rather self-oriented. But... Daniel (45:29.514) I feel like there is a part in the human experience and being human, at least in Western humanity, maybe it's different in different parts of the world, but in our corner of the world. At least it has been a part of my human experience. To... Daniel (45:51.246) to kind of want to see, for each one to kind of want to see themselves as kind of like the chosen one, you know, like this, like the really special one, like the, and to see, which then gives us this lens of seeing reality around us as, oh, oh yeah, this, that crow over there, yeah, this is saying something special about me because, because I'm pretty, I'm I'm pretty special, right? Or, you know, and Mercury, this is related to kind of my journey because, yeah, I'm kind of pretty special. And by the way, I subscribe to this whole thing. Everyone's special in their own way, but we're going to get around to that in a different way. And I'm not trying to deny that. But I feel like... Daniel (46:39.638) This gets around to this idea of purpose and purposelessness. Daniel (46:47.638) The idea of seeking out our purpose and our goals. I mean, it's so hard, you know, in one way, in one way it's like you said, it's, it's necessary to get things done, right? It's necessary to, um, it is necessary to get things done and, um, to give us a sense of direction when we feel directionless. On the other hand, I know, I feel like I've also experienced you know, kind of some hurt from that, you know, too, and kind of damage from that in different kind of aspects. I remember when I was, you know, kind of around college, probably around the time that you and I first met each other, Kevin. I remember the golden days, the good old days back then when we both had full heads of hair and we were terribly muscular. And we were both well over six feet tall at that time too. And I think we met on the football team. Kevin (47:28.854) I remember it was 400 years ago. Kevin (47:36.29) Yes. Kevin (47:42.166) We were giants and everyone else was grasshoppers. Daniel (47:43.434) Yeah, we were, that's right. But I felt this over, you know, I grew up in the church. I felt this overwhelming. sense of obligation as somebody who's trying to follow Jesus to figure out my purpose in life, right? With a capital P, you know? And just that, almost kind of this idea, you know, at the very beginning of time, God said that one day Daniel will be born and Daniel's purpose will be, oh, I'm not going to say it, you got to figure it out, you know? And then Kevin (48:02.862) Hmm. Kevin (48:14.304) Mm-hmm. Kevin (48:20.467) I'm sorry. Daniel (48:22.038) And if I didn't figure it out, I was letting God down, right? You know, and I was letting the universe down. There was all these... And I think I got that from some parts of the church and some parts of a Christian theology. And that just drove me mad for years. And also just feelings of guilt, like I was letting God down and things like that. And I also think that can kind of cause some hurt in the church. I was having this... Kevin (48:25.162) Right. Kevin (48:43.138) Wow. Daniel (48:53.07) conversation the other day with a fellow pastor about just how when we're solely focused on the church and having you know kind of goals and it I mean there's a place for that but it can also Daniel (49:09.791) It can also eliminate from our vocabulary. joy, you know, and, and belovedness and, and play. Um, so I think for me, and I'm rambling here and I'm sorry, I think for me, one thing that's been helpful, and I guess I was asking about meeting earlier is Kevin (49:18.21) Mm-hmm. Daniel (49:38.51) coming to see, coming to think about it more in terms of meaning, you know, and more like, I'm put here on this earth to, for the same reason that everyone's put here on this earth, to figure out how best to love each other, you know, how best to love the people around me. And so when I hear... Kevin (49:53.558) Hmm. Daniel (49:59.21) Jurgen Moltmann talking about the purposelessness of heaven. and how that's anticipated in play and in games, I don't know, I find that very liberating. And it feels like something that I've been waiting for somebody to say that no one has said. You know what I mean? Like... Kevin (50:13.016) Mmm. Kevin (50:19.646) Is it because purpose is? Yeah, no, and that's awesome. And I guess I'm curious why we're having different, it's not totally different reactions, but I wanna nudge into that a little bit. And one thing I'd ask you is, do you think it's because for you purpose is connected with doing versus being? Or is that too simple or is it that? Like you get to. Daniel (50:37.77) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (50:47.946) Yeah. Yup. Kevin (50:49.43) It's not about achievement and doing. What do you think? Daniel (50:52.906) Yep, the purpose is, yep. I think I almost kind of equate that with vocation. And I wonder if a lot of people do, and maybe I'm wrong on that. But I do think our culture, that is a message, our culture. Kevin (51:01.898) meaning you're calling. Right. Daniel (51:12.406) very much instills in us, right, that we are what we do in life. Kevin (51:17.79) Right. I mean, it's a very basic question to ask at a cocktail party, etc. You know, what do you do? And then we had to create this weird category of homemaker for women who were not working outside the home, because we the category and we're trying to be polite, but it was awkward because that doesn't fit. The fact that you're not working makes a weird. Daniel (51:24.29) Yeah. Daniel (51:34.691) Mm-hmm. Kevin (51:45.982) exception because everyone acknowledges that being a homemaker and working in the home is valid and important. Things have to get done and all that, but it's not real work because you're not getting paid, right? So you can see how the categories start falling apart because people can't simply be people. They have to have a job, to your point. Daniel (52:03.211) ties it to money. Daniel (52:07.094) Right, right, right. Kevin (52:11.586) And yeah, so did you work outside the home type thing? Yeah, and I can identify with that feeling like you're there's some secret thing you're supposed to be doing and you'll never be happy till you find it. But somehow it's on you to figure it out. And if you don't, it's going to be really bad. Yeah, I can identify. Right. God's just sitting there agonizing, waiting for you to figure it out. But. Daniel (52:27.214) Mm-hmm. Daniel (52:31.822) You're going to ruin your life if you don't figure it out. Yeah. Daniel (52:38.206) Right, right, right. Kevin (52:39.138) But you're not going to be told. Yeah, that is a bit taking yourself too seriously, isn't it? Daniel (52:44.586) Whereas if our purpose is just to... Kevin (52:51.01) to have an identity. Daniel (52:52.066) figure out ways to love each other as we go through life. That's something that's much more manageable. Now I shouldn't say manageable, but understandable. It's still hard, it's really hard. Maybe the hardest thing of all. But it's easier to understand it, to comprehend it. We don't have to go on a lifelong quest to figure that out. Kevin (53:12.482) Right. But to me, the purposelessness is kind of like day three of a vacation. If you don't have a lot of plans, you're like, well, it was cool to have a few days of nothing to do. But now I need like I kind of need a project of some sort. You know, we spent six weeks in Hawaii long time ago, and it sounds really cool. But it got kind of weird because when you're somewhere long term, you can't. Daniel (53:23.482) Hehehehe Daniel (53:28.01) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel (53:37.09) Wow, that's a long time. Kevin (53:40.306) Yeah, you can't just do expensive, exciting things every day. So you end up just going to the mall. And I kind of wanted something to do. Because hanging out sounds fun, but I've, you know. Daniel (53:44.255) Right, right. Daniel (53:49.935) Hmm. Kevin (53:55.63) Because you're not really living there and you don't have a job or purpose, but you're neither on vacation because that would just be one week and you see these highlights instead. You're there kind of long term, short term. And maybe some people can do that, but. Daniel (54:12.15) Would you say that reality within us is the desire to overcome unnecessary obstacles? Ha ha ha. Kevin (54:22.542) Whoo, that's good would guess I need some goals. You're absolutely right and play gives you goals temporary goals at least Which is to crush Daniel and watch him weep Daniel (54:27.584) Which, yeah, for those of us. My goal is to be crushed by Kevin Taylor and to know that my tears bring him joy. No, for listeners who didn't hear before, we have a previous book we talked about as Bernard Suits the Grasshopper and his definition of play and games is the overcoming of unnecessary obstacles. Kevin (54:56.822) And that's a pretty agreed upon definition of a game. Yeah, yeah, I did. I needed some unnecessary obstacles. I needed some goals. So not just random things, which is, can I take this rock and skip it along a pond? I mean, that's fine for a little bit, but something a little more interesting. But yeah, I needed, I don't wanna be purpose, I still want purpose and I want goals and aims, but I don't necessarily want to have to work. Daniel (54:59.371) Yeah, yeah. Daniel (55:15.512) Right. Kevin (55:25.502) or to feel like I have to do something. So maybe that's the difference. It's not a job. Daniel (55:28.002) Yeah. And I think maybe what I hear you saying is for you... those overcoming of obstacles, whether they're necessary or not. And Bernard Suits, I guess, argues none of them ultimately are necessary, but that is overcoming of obstacles is purpose. Is that what I hear you saying? That that's kind of, that's what I hear you saying. Yeah, yeah, I think maybe that I can see that, yeah. Kevin (55:41.395) Mm-hmm. Kevin (55:46.846) Yeah. Kevin (55:53.706) Yeah, I'm going to go climb this mountain. So what do I need to do and how do I prepare? And do I have the right stuff and can I do it? So that's, humans are inherently goal setting, I think. Daniel (56:06.378) Yeah. Well, I guess Bernard Suetz has said, right. And a lot of the game philosophers we've talked about that is it is, it is inherent to our, our wiring and our hearts and our minds that we find joy in, uh, overcoming obstacles, overcoming unnecessary obstacles, I guess Suetz would say. Kevin (56:26.615) Mm-hmm. Kevin (56:30.19) Right. You know, thinking of Dante, the whole idea of heaven is sort of this ascent, you're going up, like you're growing and you're moving, and the inferno, hell, they end up going in circles, so it's this meaninglessness, but they have to keep moving, except that the very, and of course, this is all Dante's imagination, but he imagines the bottom of hell is ice. and Satan is frozen in it because that's the lack of motion and communication or growth, right? Like that would be an ultimately purposeless life, which would be frozen in ice. Because life wants to grow, as Simone Vey said. Simone Vey said the only thing that defies gravity naturally is light, which is so cool. Like the plants, the trees, they defy gravity moving up to the light. And so... Daniel (57:05.536) Interesting. Daniel (57:09.05) Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. Daniel (57:23.509) Hmm. Daniel (57:27.488) So who is Simone Bass? Kevin (57:29.29) She is a French, 20th century French writer. She's wacky, but she's great. So yeah, maybe that's where I'm trying to get at is that we still need purpose, which is to move towards the light, right? We need a goal versus being almost like rocks and stones. It just like, oh, I'm gonna lay here. That's not human. That's mineral life. Screw those guys. What have they ever done for me? Daniel (57:33.031) Oh neat! Daniel (57:36.542) Oh, wackiness is great. Daniel (57:45.006) Hmm. Daniel (57:51.98) Yeah. Daniel (57:56.894) mineral life. Kevin (58:00.899) Except for provide nutrition, I guess. Riboflavin. Season our foods. Did you know if you give fish spring water, like distilled water, not spring water, distilled water, they'll die because they need water that goes through rocks. Yeah. Or rainwater. They need the nutrients from the rocks. It's weird. Daniel (58:05.354) season our foods. Yeah. Daniel (58:17.624) No. Oh, interesting. Daniel (58:27.983) Hmm. Kevin (58:28.782) Because I have an aquarium and I thought about trying to capture the rainwater because it wouldn't have chlorine in it. And I was told, no, you can't do that. Daniel (58:33.002) Yeah. It has to have these, these nutrients from. Kevin (58:38.782) It has had the stuff from the soil and the rocks, yeah, whatever the irons and metals or whatever comes through. I know. The life is weird. God, I'm just all over the place, sorry. Alright, good. Yeah. Daniel (58:44.63) Interesting. Huh. Daniel (58:51.362) Well, Kevin, I feel like we figured it out. I feel like, no, I love, I don't know if we figured out anything, but I love this discussion and conversation with you. Yeah, yeah, and listeners, we hope that you enjoyed it too. Kevin, real quick, whereas we haven't talked about any games at all, can I ask, and I'll mention one too, can I ask one game that you've played recently? Kevin (59:02.358) Me too. Foot club nerds. That's right. Kevin (59:13.686) Yeah, I'll do some editing on this. I'll trim it down. Kevin (59:19.406) I mentioned this in the newsletter, but I've been going back to the West Kingdom trilogy, Garfield Games, because of Shem Phillips, and that's really fun. It's games that I used to play a lot, and I've been doing it solo. And so it's like a cool memory, but I do have to do a little bit of going back to the rules. I'm like, oh yeah, I remember how this worked and that worked. So it's kind of fun seeing the neural pathways light up again. And the games look so good because of all the colors. Daniel (59:23.865) Yeah. Daniel (59:46.146) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin (59:49.622) I was really pleased and the criminals are like purple and the green and the townsfolk and Yeah, it's awesome. How about you? Daniel (59:57.302) That's a great series. I love that. Kristen and I have been playing a lot recently of this really, really small box game came out last year, Sea Salt and Paper. It's a very tiny, it's just a card, just a deck of cards, but we're really enjoying it. And I have yet to win it. Kristen wins every game, but it's great. Kevin (01:00:12.343) Hmm. Kevin (01:00:20.91) Are you serious? Daniel (01:00:25.806) It has one of these cool kind of shoot the moon rules that says there are four mermaid cards in the deck. And it says, if you get four mermaid cards, all four mermaid cards in your hand at one time, you instantly win the game. Like not only just you win the round, but you win like the whole game because there are multiple rounds in the game. So that's always tempting, right? To try to get all four mermaid cards, but that's never happened. And you can also, you have some control over when you end the game or end the round. And... Kevin (01:00:51.562) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel (01:00:55.59) you can, it's kind of like a push your luck sort of thing. Like you could, you can signal the end immediately after your turn or you could signal the end after the other person, you get to give the person one more chance and then it ends. And, but you get, so you get some bonuses if you give the other person another chance, but you still win, but you get penalized if you give the other person another chance and you end up losing. And so there's this kind of interesting push and pull about do I want to end the game now or not? And I always choose wrongly on that. Kevin (01:01:18.071) Hmm. Daniel (01:01:25.594) Kristen schools me every time, but it's a fun game. Kevin (01:01:28.894) It does seem like some games people innately grasp and other games are takes. It sounds like a game that for you, you're having to get your head around and Kristen is able to grok immediately. So I've seen that and experienced that. So I hear you. You're like, how do you, why are you so good at this game? And they're like, I don't know. I just get it. It's like some people just start, they take everyone can learn to swim, but some people just take to it. Daniel (01:01:46.09) Yeah. Daniel (01:01:49.57) Yeah, yeah. Kevin (01:01:58.038) faster but I bet there are some games that you get immediately that others don't. Daniel (01:02:03.458) It might be, maybe so, yeah. In our stats though, Kristen has a much higher winning rate across all games than I do. She is much better at games than I am. I heard a podcast once that was, or the name of a podcast I think, or an account or something like that, where it was, the creator was a husband who was married. And he was, Kevin (01:02:05.442) For whatever reason, it fits in your wheelhouse, clubhouse. Kevin (01:02:15.122) Interesting. Huh. Uh huh. Daniel (01:02:32.834) He was very much into board games and he was married to a woman who was not quite as much into board games. And the name of the podcast was, I teach her the rules, she beats me. And that was the name of the podcast. And I feel like that's often the story for Kristen and me too. So, yeah. Kevin (01:02:42.441) Ha ha ha! Kevin (01:02:47.126) That is so funny. Why aren't scientists studying this? I mean, they've got MRIs and all sorts of, why are they not studying what makes her brain get this? That's so funny. Yeah, I think I saw on Reddit somewhere some guy that was kind of saying, he was the board game collector, he loved board games, he rarely wins. And I thought, yeah, I kind of know what you're meaning. I'm the one that enjoys collecting them, enjoys playing them, would like to win. It's not in the cards, I guess, so. Daniel (01:02:54.086) Yeah. Daniel (01:02:58.478) Yeah. Daniel (01:03:07.318) Right, right, right. Daniel (01:03:15.978) No, um, good, good. Kevin (01:03:16.378) Ha ha. What can you do? Daniel (01:03:21.346) Well, yeah, Kevin, again, thank you so much as always for wonderful discussion. Thank you listeners for tuning in, watching or listening to us. We're really grateful. Something we haven't said before, but just kind of want to maybe to share. If you enjoy the podcast or enjoy watching the video, but especially here on the podcast, it would mean so much to us Kevin (01:03:26.839) Yeah. Daniel (01:03:51.386) to rate and review us, we appreciate that. And apparently leaving a comment actually triggers the algorithms to recommend our podcast to more people. So if you want to leave a comment to rate and review us and leave a podcast, we'd appreciate that it makes it easier apparently for other people to find the Board Game Faith podcast as well, we'd appreciate that. Yeah, or even Spotify or yeah, yeah. Kevin (01:04:11.33) So that's on Apple podcasts or Google podcasts or whatever platform of choice is Spotify. Yeah, any of those platforms, YouTube, we're there as well. And if you wanna contribute a little to help cover our costs, we'd love that. We have a Patreon. And yeah, reach out to us with any questions. Daniel (01:04:25.782) Yep, yep. And absolutely, if people want, and if you want to reach us, you can reach us by email, info at boardgamefaith.com, info at boardgamefaith.com or boardgamefaith at gmail.com. Kevin (01:04:44.238) That's it. Daniel, why don't you, I propose that we just, we just hang on and wait for people to give us a comment on their podcast player of choice. You ready to wait? We're just gonna wait. Okay, we'll be waiting. Daniel (01:04:55.426) Yeah, we're just going to wait here. We're just going to wait. I'm just going to, can you, are you going to pull up the podcast things now to see if the comments are rolling in? Kevin (01:05:08.818) I can do that? Sure. Yeah, I think. I can do that? Sure. Daniel (01:05:10.19) Okay. I think we should fill the time as we wait by talking slowly. You know what? One of us should become the voice of the book as the guest. And thank you. Oh no. Theology of play. Kevin (01:05:17.91) by talking slowly. Kevin (01:05:28.192) Okay. Kevin (01:05:32.29) Help, help, I'm trapped on this table. Daniel (01:05:40.35) I'm so sorry. Here, let me lift you up. And I'm gonna set you over, and we're gonna keep waiting. Kevin (01:05:50.326) Not there. I'm afraid of heights. Oh no! That's my backpack! We're just kidding. I spied! Because they have spines. Daniel (01:05:53.59) Let me put you on the floor. Oh no, I tripped over you. Thanks for watching! Daniel (01:06:06.094) Oh, that's very good. I like that. You're a master of puns. Kevin (01:06:11.786) Is there a chiropractor for books? Daniel (01:06:15.974) Hehehehe Uhhh Kevin (01:06:19.891) Okay, we'll be waiting. Daniel (01:06:21.826) Alright, we're still waiting. Thanks everyone. Bye bye. Kevin (01:06:25.371) Thanks.