Spiritual Lessons of Negotiation Games === Daniel: Spiritual Lessons of negotiation games. On this episode of Board Game Faith, the biweekly podcast exploring the intersection religion, spirituality, and board games. My name is Daniel Hilty Kevin: My name is Kevin Taylor. Daniel: and welcome you, our wonderful listeners, to this episode of Board Game Faith. It is a joy, uh, to have you here today, and Kevin, it's a joy to get to talk with you and to see you. How you Kevin: Absolutely Daniel. Good, good. How are you? Daniel: Good. I we're doing, we're doing well, thank you. As, as you know, we're in the middle of, uh, of, of moving houses here, so, Kevin: The worst. Daniel: yeah, the walls are getting bare and a lot of boxes around, but we are, we're doing well. Thank you. And glad you all that are doing well too. So today, Kevin, we are talking about spiritual lessons of negoti. Games and negotiation right now is, uh, uh, kind of in the news, uh, at least as, as of the date of this recording of this podcast. Um, um, the United States President, president's President Biden is over in, uh, Ireland to, uh, mark the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday agreement, uh, which was. A, a long negotiated and heavily negotiated, um, set of agreements to end the, the troubles in Northern Ireland, 25 years ago. And so, so negotiation is certainly in the headlines right now. Um, but to a much lesser extent, and much less important of course. Um, negotiation is also, uh, a mechanism that we encounter in, in board games. Um, maybe we thought. A good place to get started with the episode is just to talk about what is a negotiation board of our listeners are less familiar with that. Kevin, you have any thoughts on what, what's a negotiation board game? Kevin: Yeah, I, I don't know if, is it, I don't know if many games that are only, that I know where they use a mechanism, particular is Settlers of Catan, Catan.. Sometimes call it, uh, who the creator just died very sadly. Um, and that just such an important game in the history of board gaming, but in sellers of Catan. Kevin: There is a bit where you can trade resources and you can set the price. You know, I have two coal and, and I really want two wood. And you have, and, and that seems like it'd be fair too, for two, but maybe I could get three wood out of you, or you only have one wood and, and I'm looking, and I don't think you need the coal, but maybe you're gonna do something amazing with it and get more points. So it creates that dynamic of, of, uh, trying to get what you want and trying to figure out what the other person wants. And of course, getting a good deal is always important in a game where you win by points. Daniel: yeah, yeah, Kevin: So, yeah. What about you? What are some negotiation games you think of? Daniel: a great, uh, Khan's a great example. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, one of, uh, um, suppose as, I think one of our favorites in the house is Bohnanza, um, Kevin: Right? Daniel: that great classic, um, bean, bean farmer, um, uh, trading card game. In fact, it's probably the most popular bean farmer trading card game that's Kevin: hang on Daniel, let's, let's not exaggerate. We're known for our credible claims. Daniel: I That's true, that's true. Um, I, there are many contenders in the bean farming trading card category. I know there aren't, but, but And, and I'll, I'm actually gonna get to that maybe a little bit later on, why I like it so much. But there's, there's a really interesting negotiation part of that game. Um, kinda like you were saying with Catan, you know, it's kind of, you can, you can. Trade, essentially, whatever you want. we love Bohnanza, but it has created a lot of, uh, some, uh, some family fights too when, when all four of us get together, because sometimes you try to negotiate some good deals and sometimes they're not for everyone around Kevin: Because yeah, you, you, you, you wanna get what you want and you don't wanna benefit the other person too much. Or you lose, but you still have to strike a balance. Yeah. Bohnanza is another game where it, it, it. The negotiation's just part of it. Daniel: Right, Kevin: really you win with the set. You're trying to collect sets of things, but in order to do that, you really have to negotiate. Daniel: I think almost a, a, um, a pure, almost as, as close as I can think of to a pure negotiation game or, or maybe. 80 90% of it is, is negotiation, is um, is Chinatown, which is that was, is much loved by the shut up and Sit Down podcast. Um, and that is just, you know, you get some randomly um, distributed resources at various points in the game, but otherwise it's just all negotiation. You're just Kevin: Huh, and is it fun? I've never played it. Daniel: It is fun. is fun. Um, uh, and it's also. It also can be, um, uh, it, it can create tensions too because, you how hard of a deal you want to, you want to try to negotiate. Um, and then the last one that comes to my mind is that I think of is, is New York Slice. Um, which is this game. It's, uh, A mechanism called I Split, you Choose, which is kind of a sub mechanism of, um, games. But it's, it's what you do with your kids when you, when there's majors, a little bit of cake left and children and you say, okay, one of you can cut the cake and the other one gets to pick, you know, which slice. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: so Kevin: Huh, Daniel: those are a Kevin: and, and what I would add as well as we're talking, Twilight and Purium has a, has some really, you, you can trade a lot of stuff kind of at any time. I think that you're limited to in some ways. But when the cool bits is in those negotiations, you have some promissory notes. So you give someone and it gives them a power over you. So, okay, I'll, I will give you, This money in exchange for this note, which says, if I ever attack you, I will lose a victory point Daniel: Okay. Kevin: type thing. So it it's, it's a way of you're negotiating something now, but it also has influence later in the game. Daniel: How, how binding are those? Because I know Kevin: They're absolutely binding. If you attack me, you lose the point. Then, then, then I give you the note back. Like, like you only, it's on one time thing, but it's, it's forever. And then you could trade it with someone else. Like once you have it, like I don't mind giving it to you. I didn't. Intend to give it to Ralphie and then you are like, Hey, Ralphie, I got his note. You wanna give me somebody for it? And now I can't attack Ralph without losing a point, which means I can't win the game. So there's various ones or, or there's one where you Yeah. It, it's a really interesting bit where it's, it's kind of like an i o U for something in the game. Daniel: yeah, yeah. Kevin: So it's encouraging that, that kind of, sort of rabble rousing. But you don't, you don't have to do any of that. You don't. Trade the notes at all. If you don't want to, unlike Bohnanza, where you have to trade to win, like you're not gonna get it just by drawing cards, Daniel: right, right. Kevin: think. Daniel: I lo I I was, I was wondering if Twilight Purium four would come up for you, cuz cuz I know you've talked before about how much you love the, Kevin: Yeah. I need to get it out again. Daniel: and Kevin: Such a beast. But it's, it's a, it just casts a spell over the table and I love that kind of. Daniel: yeah. The magic circle. Kevin: The magic circle. Yeah. And people about table hogs and I'm like, this is awesome. Right? Like there's magic circles filling up my roome. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Um, Daniel: Yeah. And then, and you, you had, um, did you also mention the, the prisoner's dilemmas as an example of, of Kevin: one way to think of negotiation and, and the prisoner's dilemma is kind of a, I think it came out a philosophy of a moral ra about making moral, rational choices, but it's a, it, it's a scenario, a sort of a mind. Thought experiment where two people have been arrested and they're in solitary, like the confinement, they can't talk to each other and the police don't have good proof for their arrest. So what they want, they want each of them to, to rat on the other person, to to turn them in for a better deal. So, The main charge is if they, if the police had evidence, you would get 10 years in prison and the police are going to sentence you to two years in prison on a lesser charge unless you agree to turn in kind of the other person. And if you do, you'll be free and the other person has to serve the entire Daniel: Okay. Kevin: So you're hope it it, but the problem is you don't know what the other person's gonna do. And if you both turn in the other person, you each get five years. Daniel: Okay. Kevin: If, if no one turns anyone I and you get two years and if you turn in the other person and they don't turn you in, you get free and they get five years. Daniel: Mm mm Kevin: And so what do you think the most logical negotiation choice is? Daniel: Ooh, Kevin: 0, 2, 5 or 10. Daniel: I, I need, I, I, I overwhelmed by Kevin: I mean part of it is knowing the psychology of the per Daniel: I think that's why I'm so bad at negotiation games. Yeah, yeah, Kevin: Yeah. You have to kind of anticipate whether other person's gonna do. Daniel: It's built on trust. I mean, it's so much an Kevin: It's built on trust or Well, it is. And so I think the, the logical answer usually as it's presented is you would neither turn the other person in because that gives you the best deal that you each will get only two year sentence. Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: So the, the, but that's predicated on the other person seeing the scenario the same way. Daniel: right. Kevin: hoping that they're rational and they would also. Not, um, not make any kind of that, that they went and turn you in, Daniel: but you can't assume Kevin: but you can't know. Yeah. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: Uhuh. Uhuh. Daniel: Hmm. Now that's a great Kevin: So it's in a way, way, it's not, and I guess in a way it's, it's a question of negotiation in your own mind. Daniel: Right, right. and it does bring up the, I think the issue of how, how much trust factors into these, these negotiation games, you trust the person to be looking out for your best interest or not. I wonder is that, is that, is that a prerequisite for good negotiation that you trust the other person to have? Kevin: Well, but Daniel: interested, maybe not. Kevin: yeah, I don't think, well, and again, your goal is to win, so you do not have the other person's best interests. You have only have your own. Daniel: right, right, Kevin: it is a, uh, a co-op type game, Daniel: right, Kevin: your goal is to win, and that's the how we define a game. Aah, Bernard suits grasshopper, then I should negotiate to get myself the best deal and to get you the worst deal. Daniel: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Right. Kevin: Now, life is not really like that. a game is Daniel: right. Which I think that maybe is a good segue into Kevin: Ooh. Daniel: what are some spiritual lessons we can. Uh, we can learn from, from negotiation um, um, with some, some, some life lessons or some lessons about Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and faith that we can get from negotiation games. Um, and I know you and I have been talking a little bit about, about some here. Um, you want me to, to jump in or do you have some You wanna jump in when you're dying to? Kevin: Well one, this is was your thought, but, but one would be that they're very creative by nature, Daniel: Yes, yes, yes. Kevin: so you can create opportunities. Daniel: yeah, yeah. I, I think that's probably the thing that I absolutely love most about, about, um, negotiation games. I, I, um, at some point along the way, someone was explaining Bohnanza to me, or as I was learning about Bohnanza, there's, you know, they say, okay, the very first part of the game, there's like two halves of the game, and the first half is very restricted. You know, it's like, It's like, you can't, you can't, you can't change the order of the cards in your hand. I mean, how, how restrictive is that? You know, really, really tight. There are these incredible, uh, set of, of constricting rules that just make you feel like you can't breathe. But then the other half of the game it's like anything goes, like you can offer you want in this negotiation. and for me, the joy. Of that game. But also I think we have just the larger joy of negotiation games is the contrast between the restriction of rules Kevin: Right. Daniel: kind of intoxicating freedom, you know, to do anything you want. uh, and, and I think there is maybe, yeah, there, because it is so creative, you can just, whatever your mind can imagine is something that you can offer up as a deal, you know? And, um, and, and, and I, I, I think that, That offers, uh, um, uh, that offers maybe some, some reflection on, on, on life. You know, I think oftentimes life can be, um, the most fun, the most creative in that interplay between, um, restriction and freedom, you know, between life the. freedom of life. Kevin: Mm. Daniel: Um, you know, it makes me think about like, you know, for a river to go anywhere, uh, you know, it needs to have, it needs to have, um, uh, banks, you know, it needs to have the layout on either side, kind of directing it. But, but where the river is going, the river itself is this kind of swirling wonderful chaos. But otherwise, if it doesn't have the banks on the side of it, it just becomes a flood, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and, uh, yeah. So I, I don't know that that's, I guess that's one lesson that comes to me from negotiation games that life can often be at its most fun and creative in that tension and that interplay between, between rules and freedom. Kevin: Right, right. And I, and it sounds like you like the energy of two people coming to an agreement, and that is like, they both feel like they're getting something out of it. And so both parties are happy. So there's a real. Excitement there, like, oh yeah, yeah. Like, you know, they get excited about, it's a bad deal for you, you just don't like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Daniel: Right, right, right. And then if you say, well, that's all you're gonna get, that can, um, that could, that could, we've had some people get up from the, the table of Bohnanza when that's when it, when it gets to that point. Yeah. Kevin: Oh, really? Daniel: That's, um, in some Bohnanza plays, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: So, and that kind of makes me think about, um, know, in, in the, in the Christian tradition and the Bible, you'll, some of the books, the letters written by this guy Paul, you know, the Paul Paul who often talk about kind of this contrast between life of under the law and life under freedom and, you know, and the freedom of grace or, or free. And, and, and he, I think he often seems to imply that life has kind of lived out. In the meeting place of those, of those, of those two things that, um, the restriction of law is, is backdrop that gives us, uh, joy in the, in the, uh, uh, yeah. And the possibilities of, of freedom. Kevin: Right, right. Daniel: so anyway, Kevin: what's her name. Nice. A another. Spiritual lesson here is really learning about others and, and that if you're playing a game, you sort of learn what someone else's style is. And the classic would be poker, which is not a game that I, I mean, I, I've played it with just the chips and not real money soap. I. Always have to be introduced to what beats what in things. But that's a game very much. Well, I guess that's not a negotiation game. Lemme take that back. But it is a bluffing game and that's the the guess the great bluffing game cuz you can win with really bad cards if you can just convince people that you have good cards. Daniel: Right, Kevin: so a negotiation game has a little bit of that of, well, I know that Daniel drives a hard bargain. So I make certain assumptions or I know when Daniel gets excited, he's about to win. So no deal buddy. No deal. But then you may know that. So maybe you try to get a better deal by pretending, by trying to invert your natural tendencies. Daniel: Mm Kevin: So whenever I'm in games with negotiation, especially for playing with the family, I kind of, you know, I know who to drive, I know which person to drive a hard bargain. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: they're probably gonna win. Daniel: I was wondering about that. I mean, I mean, not not naming any specifics or any, you know, any people, but Yeah. But just in general, what are some of the lessons you feel like, uh, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: games teach you about, about, have taught you about others over the years? Kevin: Yeah. Well, like, like who really wants to win and who is mostly just there to have fun Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: and uh, who's. Who's, yeah, I guess, how are they a. Are they playing? Yeah. What, uh, I'm, I'm fading on the words here. I'm gonna cut this part out. Daniel: fine. No, no, no worries. No worries. Kevin: Are they a tur? What, what's the image? Are they a turtle or are they a shark? Maybe that's, have you ever heard those about people like turtles? Are people that. Draw in at conflicting sharks are like ra some people, you really see that. I was trying to think of the animals and I was earlier and I was like, um, lions no sharks with lasers on their heads. No. Yeah. So yeah, you, you get to see their style and some people love conflict. I shouldn't say love it, but they get energy and it, they don't see it as offensive. Other people are kind of terrifi. And seeing who you are and also just knowing yourself and others and knowing that maybe that's something to work on, that there's nothing wrong with driving a good deal as long as you're not deceiving anyone and there's nothing, and there can be something bad with always trying to take advantage of others if you're sharp. Daniel: I was wondering, can, can a negotiation game be fun um, If somebody, turtles, you know, if someone's like, uh oh sure. Whatever you Kevin: Probably not actually. Daniel: Because I find that's, that's one of my struggles with, with, uh, I can, I can get to a point negotiating negotiation games when I do, you know, where I do that? It's just like, oh, sure, know, whatever you want. uh, and Kevin: I'm, I tend to do that as well. Yeah. Daniel: yeah. But then it doesn't, maybe not as fun by Kevin: I mean, the other person may just want to win, but most people want to win. Well, and they kind of, if they know they can get you to do it anyway, it's not as challenging. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the other contrast, another on that, um, makes me think of is there have been times when I've been playing a negotiation game, especially like Chinatown, this where there is a certain joy in just. Becoming that other person, you know, that normally, you know, might turtle and say, sure, whatever. there have been some moments where it's like, you know, boy, have I got a bargain for How about you know and I know you, you know, and just, and to become this kind of, this salesperson that I might other point in life, but there's such a joy in that and Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: part of Kevin: That is fun. Daniel: know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Kevin: And Bohnanza is great because some of that you're trying to get rid of cards that are gumming up your hand. And you may unwittingly give someone they really want the card, they really want. So along those bits of, well no, I, I I don't want those. And then, and then you give 'em, they're like, yes. And then they got the be they got the coffee beans they wanted. Right. They suddenly, Um, so it, it, it, it can be fun to go to the dark side, whatever your dark side is like to ex Well, I guess if you're a shark, it's not fun to be a. Daniel: No, no Kevin: take that back. It's only fun for turtles to get to pretend to be sharks. Daniel: Yeah, that's true. Kevin: Aw. Daniel: I Kevin: Kind of feel bad for the sharks now. Daniel: is another good spiritual lesson on, on negotiation games. Um, thank you. That's good. That's good. Another one that, um, has occurred to me as we are preparing for this is that negotiation games, or negotiating, negotiating in general, can be a good shortcut to identify what's really important, uh, in a conversation or in a conflict. Um, I mean, I, I, I think you see that pretty quickly in games, you know, when, when you're negotiating again, right? The point is, points. The point is points um, you know, and, and so, any negotiations then kind of ultimately, um, boil down to, What will allow me to get the most points and what will allow you to feel comfortable with the points that you're getting, you know, too. and, and so it's a very, it's, it's a way of kind of quickly cutting through all of the distractions until you get to really what matters most. But, but when you negotiate in other areas of, of life, it can get more complex. Um, where it's not necessarily about about points. Um I was. I was, I was thinking about, um, that example, I'm trying to think of negotiation stories in the Bible and, you know, there's a story in, uh, in, in First Kings Chapter three that a lot of people know about. Uh, just really a really an odd story where, you know, these two women come up to King Solomon and uh, um, and they both claimed to be the mom of this child and this child. died. Uh uh and um, no, no, no, no. They both had two children. I'm sorry. They both had a child. One child tra tragically died, one child survived. uh, and so they both claim to be the mom of this child and they come up to Solomon and, uh, and, and Kevin: yeah, the claiming would be the, the mother of the living child. Daniel: Right, right. Yep. Yep. And so, Solomon, uh, you know, in preparation for this episode, I really like should have read the Bible and should have been, I should have, I should have gotten my source material right. Thank you for, for setting it straight. And so, so King Solomon says, well, I know what to I know what to do. Oh no. Oh, no. I've made Kevin angry. Uh, Kev, uh, St. Collins says, well, I know what to do. Let's cut the baby in half and then we'll give, you know, this is Kevin: Because that's fun. Daniel: yeah. And we'll give one half to the one and one after the other. And, uh, and of course the, the real mom goes, uh, one woman says, no. Whatever you do, don't that, don't do that. And the other one's like, sure, that's fine. And Kings Island says, aha. Now I have discovered the real mother, the real mother. The one who doesn't want me to cut the child in half. And Kevin: Right. Daniel: and, and you know it. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a weird example. It's a gruesome example. It's an odd example, but it, but it, it's an example I think of how that negotiation really cut, cut to not, no cut to the, the, the real issue there, which is. who loves this child? Like a mom would love this child, you know, Kevin: right? Daniel: about this child? And negotiation seems to have a way of, of taking away everything else. But what matters most? Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: on that or? Kevin: No, that's, that's so interesting and it makes me think oddly of. Negotiation is partly what happens in a conversation. And so if you come to me asking a question or with a dilemma, part of it is negotiating. What's this really about or what's going on? Or is this a power play? And it's reminding me of how the Pharisees would try to trap Jesus in the New Testament. The gospels with certain questions, like a classic one was, should we pay the temple tax? So they ask Jesus this, and it's a trap because if he were to say, yes, you should pay it, then it's gonna tick off the, the Jews at the time who were anti Rome, because they're Roman Empire controls Israel. But if he says, don't pay it, he's going to tick off the Romans and the Jews that are more pro Rome. So he is kind of trapped. And the way he negotiates his way out of that is to say, well, whose image is on the coin? And they say, well, it's Caesars. And Jesus famously says, render or give to Caesar. What is Caesars? Which is. People have continued to debate exactly what he meant by it. So it's like a negotiation by, he kind of evades their question and raises another question and then, you know, mic drop and is out. And we still aren't sure exactly what that means Daniel: Mm mm Kevin: read about it. Like people can argue, well, you should pay it, or maybe it means everything is God's, or maybe money doesn't matter. You can take a lot of lessons from it. But does it seem to you like that moment is kind of like the Solomon story, it's sort of a negotiation of what's this really about? Daniel: It is, it is. And as you're saying that, it strikes me that, that, you know, maybe so much of, of, of good negotiation. Involves discovering. Uh, unknown third option, you know, like that, that, that the third way, you know, because we, I think we've talked a little bit about this before on this podcast, but you know, the Pharisees again and again, tried to think to trick, trap Jesus, trick Jesus into kind of this, uh, this either or binary polarized kind of thinking, you know, like it's, it's either or that, you know, it's either you're gonna pay your taxe. Or you're not, you and, um, and, and Jesus again and again, you know, refuses to play that kind of either or game. And in negotiating that, that tension Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: quite frequently introduces this, this third way of thinking this third option and negotiation. I wonder, I wonder if that's maybe, maybe kind of the heart of negotiation is. Just introducing, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: introducing a third option. into a previously Kevin: It could be. I think. I think that's great. And I think it can be that. I do think it can also be your earlier point of revealing what's really at stake here. the, the fair and of course these are caricatures of the Pharisees, the New Testament, the doubtless were, uh, They were not, they're kind of one dimensional characters in the gospel. So gospels are, are describing a, a certain point of view. Uh, but, but they were trying to trap Jesus and Jesus kind of reveals that they're trap. Daniel: Right, Kevin: he's sort of also, he's prevent, he's, he's, Presenting a third option. They didn't give, but he's also showing what they were really after. I think that's what reminded me of the King Solomon story, which is this is this, you know, by, by threatening to kill this baby, I'm revealing who the real mom is or what the real agenda is, which somebody's trying to steal a baby that's not theirs. And so one person wants to save the baby and have the baby, another person just wants the baby. And Solomon's answer sh sorts out who's who. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So the glass, onion, uh, knives out the third installment. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: With James Bond. Daniel: glass Kevin: With James Bond, I'm, uh, Louisiana. James Bond on the value. I love that it's got this French, new Orleans something crazy accent or a crazy version of it. I mean, of course it's the, right now it's a caricature of, of that kind of Daniel: Char Yeah. No, and and that goes Kevin: The only crazy accent is Daniel's. Daniel: I, I, I do, I do Kevin: mean, listen to 'em. Daniel: I did It's true, it's true. I, I agree. Kevin: Corduroy, Chad. Daniel: no, no. I, I agree, Kevin and I, I think what you're saying that also kind of gets back to your previous point about negotiation, helping. Do you understand others too, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: uh, good negotiation identifies what's really at Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: which is often really these not very complic. Small set of feelings that we're all dealing with on the inside, you um, Kevin: you may not even know what they are. They're hiding from you Daniel: you Kevin: cuz that's the way the human mind works. So you don't know till you talk about it, what you actually want. Daniel: Exactly, exactly. It reminds me of, you know, one of the pieces of advice I've gotten gotten as a pastor over the years that has really helped me, and I mean it's, and certainly nothing. Kevin: Besides preach shorter sermons, Daniel: preach shorter sermons and, and shave off your beard Kevin: uhhuh, Daniel: um, and, and Kevin: use mouthwash. Daniel: and look and, and be more, be more handsome, Kevin: Right, Daniel: which I can't do, and be more like Kevin, which do. Kevin: One day my child, Daniel: is, is that, You know, so often when somebody gets mad at you, when somebody, when somebody is, directs anger toward you, uh, and this, I mean, I, I've heard in the context of being a pastor, but, but this, and this applies to everything in life, you know, but so often when somebody becomes angry at you, mad at you, esp especially if it seems, seems to come just out of nowhere that very often, very often, that really has very little to do with. You know that, that it's because there's something else going on that's very important that probably has to relate to a very small number of feelings in the person, like fear or shame. Um, honestly, those two things, um, you know that, that so often Kevin: Grief. Daniel: fear and shame or grief. Yeah. That is motivating. and, and, and that motivates all of us, including, you know, including me for sure too. It's part of being human and um, if we can, Kevin: And you're just a lightning rod. You're just, you're just receiving Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: feelings. Yeah. Daniel: right. And Jesus seemed especially adept at kind of figuring out what those, what those. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: core underlying issues are, I mean, uh, so many of the great religious traditions, a as well, I mean, Buddhism speaks a lot about this as, as well, I know, and probably other religious traditions too. But, um, you know, that at the, at the heart of so much, um, suffering, uh, or anger is a, um, is a hurt child Inside, you Kevin: Right. So we have to negotiate everyone's hurt, child as well as our own speak or when we interact. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: Um, yeah, I think that's really true. That also reminds me of a bit of wisdom I heard, which is when you're dealing with people in your family or friends or you know, close relationships and somebody is, uh, you know, trying, you're trying to negotiate a, a moment or, or something you all are wanting to do, one way to deal with that is what does this look like to. But in a weird way is saying, what do you want? Like, like you wanna go to dinner with these Right. Somebody or whatever. What does that actually look like? And that enables someone to say what they want, cuz they may not be sure what they want. So tell me what that looks like. Daniel: So if somebody is, is in your, in some close relationship is saying, is like arguing for something, follow up question, what does that look like to you? Kevin: Yes, it's, it's in the moment of an argument potentially, is kind of a negotiation. Nothing wrong with that. Y there's something you want, something they want, you can't negotiate till you declare the terms, which is what does this look like? What does this mean to you? Like, Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: um, can, can we adapt this in a way that gets to what you really want, but also makes it something that I. Get on board with or, or interface with a way that that creates a, a win-win. Daniel: That is, that's a great way Kevin: Yeah. It's a nice way, not real good at using it, but I've heard of it, Daniel: What does it look like to you? That's I, I, I Kevin: becau, because to your point, like we, we have to identify what the core issue or value is, and we don't always know it till we have to start dictating terms. Daniel: Right, right. You know, I, it reminds me of, um, I, I was looking up the etymology of negotiate, of negotiate preparation for this episode. Kevin: the entomology. There's a, there's a bug, there's a negotiating bug. Daniel: and the entomology. Yeah. Kevin: an Daniel: The negotiating beetle is, is, um, It's, it's a hard, it's a hard bug to crack. Um, but no, the, the etymology, Kevin: that they, they release their bids through pheromones. Daniel: but that's Kevin: I will give five ant baby sacks for your, and it's just the smell erupts from their pores. Right? Because don't ants communicate with pheromones. Daniel: I think Kevin: They don't talk. They just for chemicals. They just Daniel: and Bees Bees through wiggles. Right. And so, um, it could be a negotiating wiggle. I think we as human beings should negotiate by wiggling. Kevin: Huh? Daniel: what we should do more. Kevin: I do it all the time. It's just that I'm seated and you can't see it. So I'm just over here, Daniel: I think in honor of, wiggle negotiation and our befriend, we should do the rest of the podcast communicating only through wiggles, Kevin: Okay, everybody, I, once you go into your local McDonald's and order a Big Mac, and when they tell you the amount, just wiggle see what they do. Just do a little wiggle whether you agree to that price point. Daniel: I, I am going to get on the, we need more wiggling bandwagon. I think that's, Kevin: How much for this car, and then you wiggle. Daniel: didn't you see me wiggle? I said, said, said 700. That was a 700 Kevin: That was a seven. Wiggle. Now I'm gonna sweat the next number. Daniel: That Kevin: Pheromones. What A bunch of idiots. Daniel: Uh, So anyway Kevin: to talk. Daniel: the or It's genius. It's genius too. right? Yeah, yeah, Kevin: Their mandibles are only for eating, not for talking. That's pretty awesome actually. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: energy. Daniel: Um, but the, the etymology of negotiate, um, involve, I think it's like literally like, um, not, um, not having leisure or not being at In other words, it's work. It's hard work. Kevin: Oh, Daniel: interesting. Yeah. Kevin: that's interesting. Daniel: hard work. It's, it's the opposite of taking it easy. Like our is not to negotiate. And so it's hard work. It's not taking it easy to negotiate. And I thought, I thought that was really interesting. Does that Kevin: That is really interesting. I'm having to look it up right now, actually. Daniel: Yeah. I'm wrong. And in the meantime I'm going to, uh, wiggle. and, uh, and send pheromone communication through this Kevin: the internet does not. So this is why ants never invented the internet, cuz you Daniel: that's right Kevin: smell through it Daniel: that's right. Yeah. Kevin: anyway. Daniel: Are, you Kevin: yeah. So that's great. That's great. And another spiritual lesson. Daniel: Yes. negotiation games? Kevin: Yes. we. Daniel: me to take water or do you want Kevin: Yeah, you go ahead. Because the number four on our list is kind of similar. One we had earlier. Daniel: Yeah, I mean, it is, it is really, um, it, it is, you're right, this idea of, of negotiation games kind of fostering sympathy and understanding. I think that goes well with what you were saying, this idea of, of learning about the others. Um, and it does, you know, all of these are, are tied into, tied, tied into. each other. But you know, the more negotiating requires that we put ourselves in other people's shoes. Um, and on a very simple level, what we see about it in games in Bohnanza, if I see that you're collecting stink beans, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: by the way, would love to find a can of stink beans in the grocery store, but I haven't found it yet. If I know that you're collecting steak beans, Kevin: Yes. Nothing like a stink bean taco. Daniel: right? Kevin: It's so good. Daniel: I know to offer you stink beans because I'm putting myself in a very basic level in your shoes, and I understand that you want stink beans, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I in some ways is good exercise for sympathy and understanding of of other people. Yeah. Kevin: That's, I hadn't thought of that. But you can't do a solo negotiating game. You, you have to deal with other people and, and sort of look at what they're after and, and analyze the table. maybe that's a problem with real Euro games that there's no negotiating, Daniel: yeah That's true Kevin: just at your little stuff and not paying attention when other people are doing. Daniel: right, right. And yeah, and, and you're paying attention to what other people are doing in a way that. Makes really Kevin: optimize it for Daniel: to what's the best for them. Yeah, Kevin: what's best for them, but not so that they win. What do they want and what can I give them that will enable me to defeat them? Daniel: or at least to get what I want or, yeah, that's right. That's right. Kevin: Well, I mean, if you're playing to win, I mean it, yeah. Daniel: right. Yeah. Yeah. If it's a competitive game. Kevin: Because Cuz I, cuz I, it's terrible to play a negotiating game and then you end up giving the person the thing and then they win. You're like, dang it. Daniel: exactly. Kevin: it's, you know, you don't want to do that. Daniel: I, I, I gave you that stink bean. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin: Right. You get the assist. Except for it's the other team, which is a basketball riff. Or it's volleyball it, I think it might be, um, dodge ball reference. Daniel: Is it a, okay, Kevin: I think Daniel: That's the one with the, with the Kevin: they play on the street, which could involve ice or not. I'm a little unclear. Daniel: I think dodge ball is with ice on a street and a putter. and a broom. I, I believe that's the one. I believe that's the one. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: we need to do a spinoff, uh, a board game. Faith sports podcast, by the way I think, I think we have a lot of great sports, uh, insights into this. Kevin: And the secret behind all of it is, I hate sports. Daniel: Nick and Um. Kevin: I mean, you buy ticket, you have to pay to go like what? Daniel: I Kevin: They should be paying me. Daniel: Oh, don't get me started. I know, I know. I feel the same way. I feel the same way. It's like, oh, we're, I think Kevin: Have you ever been to a football game? Like you pay for a slice of metal that's cold with no back outside and it could rain. You're like, why? Daniel: I could watch people that I have no connection to throw a ball to each other with much weighting in between. I, no, I, Kevin: While my back hurts and my butt gets cold? Oh my Daniel: and I could have been at home playing a board game with people that I love. Kevin: Or I could just be throwing $20 bills in the fireplace. It's about the same thing. Daniel: I think we're alienating some of our listeners here. I'm Kevin: I'm sorry y'all. We love Daniel: I have I While I am, while I understand, and I'm with you, Kevin, I have cut as I know you have too. I've come to understand and know and. uh, that, that, um, watching sports, it fulfills for many people the same thing as playing a board game for me. And so I, Kevin: Yeah, there's an uncertainty and there's a winning. Yeah, I can see that. Daniel: However I'm with you, man. I'm with you, man. Kevin: there's a few of us. Daniel: There is kind of, that's that assumption. John Hodgman, do you remember John Hodgman? He was a comedian. Kevin: Yes. Yes. And you have his books. Oh, I need to get those books. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: of my favorite quotes of of his was that this kind of, it kind of Kevin: Oh, note. Daniel: he said, he said, I don't mind. He said, I don't mind other people being sports fans. He says, what bothers me is the assumption. Their assumption that I am, he said, he says it's not, he says, it's not as if I go up to other people and say, Hey, who's your favorite doctor? Who? And that just captures it so Kevin: That's so great. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: yeah Kevin: is, oh my gosh. Daniel: Anyway, anyway, anyway um, we love all of our listeners whether you enjoy sports or not, we respect you and love you. well maybe our last, our last, uh, spiritual lesson, if you don't mind, who might, might get us to that Kevin: Yeah, let's go. Daniel: is that we've kind of, we've been dancing around this, all this. I think there a lot of us is that this idea that there, there can be more important measures of success than just personal. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and, you know, and I, because if I'm honest, a good negotiation game, it feels good. But in the moment it doesn't, never feels, it never feels quite as good as like me just. uh, winning without giving up anything. You know, I, because that's, you know, that's, oh, I love, you know, that's, you know, but it's always like, oh, I had to give up a little something to make this, this, and I'm not proud of that. I'm just saying how it feels in that moment. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and I would say that maybe framing that as personal gain and negotiations are reminders that they're, that that personal satisfaction is not always the best measure the best outcome. Right. That, that, that in interconnection and how we're interconnected matters more in the long term kind of my own personal glory story, you know, Kevin: Hmm mm. Daniel: Um, um, and, um, Kevin: And you feel interconnected, how? Like where are you feeling that The Daniel: I think we see that in negoti negotiation games in that, you know, their, their reminder this game isn't just, even if I wanna win the reminder to me that this game isn't just about me, right? that we're all pull, pulling from the same resources that they, that this other person has interest in the, their resources too, that they're Kevin: Bright, right. I see. Daniel: to look good Um, and, um, It remind. So, and we see this of course, in a lot of religion and faith teachings. the thing that came to my mind was, um, you know, when, uh, Jesus again has tried the, the Pharisees religious leaders is trying to trick Jesus. Say, you know, what's the greatest teaching? You know, and, and Jesus love of the Lord your God with all your heart, soul of mind and love your neighbors, yourself. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: um, I, I once read it was a, a Greek Orthodox, um, Um, theologian who was writing about a j a Jewish rabbi, Kevin: Okay. Daniel: on this passage. Kevin: This is the joke. Daniel: yourself. Kevin: A priest and a rabbi Daniel: joke. Kevin: write about each other. Okay. Just Daniel: and they were playing hockey on, on, um, on the, um, on ice and with brooms. Um, no, but the, the. um, but, but the Jewish rabbi in this, in this encounter, he had something really fascinating, which has really stuck with me. That we make an assumption when we, when we hear that commandment that Jesus talks about, which itself comes from the Hebrew Bible, but love your neighbor as yourself. make an assumption that that means love your neighbor to the same extent that you love yourself. Right? means to the same extent as in that case. And I do think there's a good argument for that and, and, and, and it's good to hold onto that, but as can mean something else. can also mean love your neighbor as being yourself. As, as, and, and, and this and this Jewish rabbi made this point that. We love our neighbors because they are us, right? The, the, the sense of interconnection, the the As Kevin: right. Daniel: We don't love our neighbors to the same extent as ourselves. We love our neighbors as being ourselves. that the more we recognize the importance of interconnection, the more we come to realize that loving our neighbor is loving ourselves and looking out for our neighbor and their, and their interest Kevin: Mm, Daniel: is also looking out for our Kevin: everything's connected everything everywhere, all at once. Yeah. Daniel: anyway. Does any of that Kevin: Yeah. No, no. I mean, I, it's really got me thinking how I've been playing more euros and, and you don't get these dynamics like you, you, it's very much about how do I maximize resources, and you're not connected to other people necessarily or working with them. Daniel: yeah, Kevin: yeah, you're right. I can see that it's really a different type of, Daniel: You know, one other. Kind of Euro, Euro game that ties into this that we ha, that I didn't think about till right now, that we haven't talked about, but it's kind of negotiation, eh, not really, Kevin: Monopoly. Daniel: is is Monopoly. That's right. Oh, of course. Monopoly. Monopoly, yeah. But, uh, is, um, Jamie s Steyer has a couple of these games, and I'm sure others probably do too. But as a couple of these games where you are cooperatively something with your neighbor to your right and your neighbor to your Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and then your score. at the end of the game is the lower score of those two things that you are building with your neighbor to your, your left neighbor, to your right. And, you know, and so are, you have to want what's best for your neighbor in order to win that game, have to, and that's just genius, you know? I, Kevin: That is a cool bit. Yes, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: yes. Daniel: Um Kevin: a negotiation. Well, I guess it's de deciding when, when you use that strategy maybe. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: But, but it's, it's more of an way of getting an interconnectedness. Uh, I don't know those other games, but I know side has a bit where when you develop something, it does depend on your, what your neighbor, when your neighbor takes an action, you benefit. Being aware of their boards as a way of avoiding the whole Euro trap of just, you know, Daniel: Right, Kevin: your board. Daniel: Jamie Steyer seems especially good at that positive player interaction, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: um, Kevin: I think he wants to be on our podcast. Daniel: I think he does too. Kevin: We just need to ask him. Daniel: He's a Missourian. If any of our listeners out there, um, have any connections to, to Jamie, let us know, please. We'd love to, Kevin: Right. Daniel: on. Um, well, Kevin: Oliver, if we could take it either Jamie, we could have both Jamie's, Jamie Oliver and Jamie Seg Mere Daniel: That's true. We could have, we could, they could talk to each other about games and, and cooking Kevin: And cooking Daniel: and sports Kevin: right. Daniel: and, and bugs. Kevin: It bugs Daniel: I'm trying to think if there's any other, other, Jamie, Jamie Fox. Jamie Fox Kevin: Jamie Fox. Right. Daniel: Jamie, Jamie Farr. Oh my, that's a deep cut. Do you remember j Jamie Farr from the, from the 1970s? Kevin: No, Daniel: Okay. I think he was on mash. Jamie Farr. Oh man. We're, I'm dating myself. Um, I'm gonna stop before I, I, I give my age away. Kevin: I'm good. Deep catalog here. That's a record reference to LPs. Daniel: Jamie. Kevin: And Jamie. Now my nephew had a friend named Jamie. That boy run outside. Had a Turkey chase em around the house once. Daniel: Um, Kevin: My mom does tell a story about being chased by a Turkey around the house, somebody, and as they went around, they, they said, open the door. The next time, like, like the next time they come around, they were gonna try to flee in. Oh. Daniel: That's Kevin: next time I come around, get the screen door, I'll have to ask her anyway, have a contest. Daniel: Yes. Yes. Special announcement. Kevin: Special announcement. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Daniel: We are so grateful, uh, for all of our wonderful listeners and followers and, um, we are, uh, just about to break a thousand followers on Instagram. And in fact, we, as of this morning, I think we have, we're gonna give ourselves a little cushion, but, Kevin: Right, because some of them are probably bots. Daniel: right, right. Um, to celebrate a thousand followers for Board game Kevin: Yes. Daniel: uh, we're having a contest and the contest is, Show us your board game Faith. And Kevin, would you mind telling a little bit what does that mean? What are we asking our listeners to do to show us your board game? Kevin: What we're asking you to do is get a photo of yourself at your place of worship with some of your games so you could, right? I mean, you could be in the fellowship hall or outside, or within your church or your, uh, mosque, synagogue, whatever, you know, whatever seems appropriate to you. But get, we want to. Something on the property of your house of worship with some of your games, you can set 'em up or you could just do the box lids would be fine, right? Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: you can, however, you can flex religiously and game boardy. That's what we want. Does that sound fair? And we've got some demos. Daniel: We do, you'll be watch our Instagram account, you and Facebook. You'll be seeing those demos coming out soon. This was inspired by, by the way, by photograph. That's already on our social media, uh, Takuya. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: what our episode that with him, he, the cover of photo for that was a picture of him in his house of worship with board games around him. That's what inspired this. Kevin: Which I'm so jealous because between the robes, but also he had so many games set up. Must have taken a long time. Daniel: must have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you post a picture of yourself with your board games at your house of. Um, uh, we ask that you include the hashtag board game faith hashtag board game, faith, somewhere in the posting. we're gonna search for those, for those hashtags and, um, all of the pictures that are posted with a hashtag board game. Faith by, uh, May 31st. May 31st, into, yeah. At the end of May, we'll go into. A a drawing. We're gonna randomly draw for prizes. The grand prize is you're gonna get a new board game. Faith Celebration T-shirt. It's a brand t-shirt. Plus you can receive a board game Faith coffee mug, or help Kevin and me pick an episode topic and record the intro for that episode. The I know the second prize is a new board game, faith Celebration T-shirt. The third prize is a board game Faith coffee mug. Kevin: And the fourth prize is a virtual hug from both of us. Daniel: It is. It is. That's right. Actually, actually, that's the grand prize for everyone is our love for you. Kevin: Yay. Daniel: Um, um, because we think you're all winners. Kevin: That's right. So this is through Instagram. Show us your board game Faith, and, uh, we're excited to see what we, what, see what games you have and where you choose to take a photo. And we've got some, we've got, Daniel and I have done this, and so yeah, let's, let's see what everyone's doing for this. It'll be great. Daniel: Yeah. Yep. Please do and check out Instagram for more details. We look forward to seeing your board game, faith, we look forward to having you back here for our next episode, our next episode. Uh, we are so excited. I'm so excited to to welcome We're so excited to get to Mo. Welcome Mandy Hutchinson Hutchinson from the Salt and Sass podcast. She is gonna be joining us to discuss games that teach part two games, that teach part Kevin: that teach. Daniel: Uh, and in the meantime, Kevin, how any ways, words, or wisdom for how people can connect to Kevin: Go to our link tree for board Game Faith Link Tree Board Game Faith, and they can find us there. And Daniel: We'd love to see ya Kevin: yep. Daniel: Kevin. Have a great day. Bye-bye everybody.