Daniel: Publishing a board game brings together all sorts of different fields and areas of expertise, design and art and play testing and marketing and manufacturing and shipping and more. But what about spirituality? Does board game publishing ever intersect with matters of the spirit or philosophy or religion? And if so, where? Today we are thrilled to welcome board game designer and publisher, Jamie Stegmeier, to discuss board games, board game publishing, and spirituality. On this episode of Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly show exploring the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. That's our little intro ditty, Jamie. So Jamey Stegmaier: I love the titty and introduction. Thank you, Daniel. Daniel: thank you, thank you. Well, yeah, well, Jamie, first off, welcome to Board Game Faith. We are so happy and delighted to have you here. Jamey Stegmaier: I'm happy to be here too. I'm happy to be talking to you. I know Kevin's not feeling well today, but I appreciate you still making the time to talk to me. Daniel: Oh, absolutely. We're just delighted. Yes, for regular listeners of our show, you may notice that Kevin is missing. Kevin Taylor is the co-host. Kevin is feeling under the weather this morning. And so, Kevin, we miss you. We hope you're feeling better soon. And Kevin said just carry on without him. So we will try to do that. I'll try to muddle through on the tech side of things. He usually handles that, but we will be good. We will be good. So Jamie, we are grateful on the show. We have a lot of wonderful listeners, some kind of from the board game side of things, some from kind of the spirituality, religion side of things. Just by way of introduction, would you mind just telling our listeners a little bit about yourself, please? Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah, I guess my board game background is that from a very young age, I... played a lot of games. I also started designing games for fun as a little kid. And then around 10, almost 11 years now ago, I decided to put a game on Kickstarter called Viticulture and that unexpectedly launched a new career for me. At the time it was just a hobby and it has become a career where I now run a company called Stillmyr Games full-time. We're probably best known for a wingspan, if any listeners are out there Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jamey Stegmaier: who are maybe board game adjacent. Those Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jamey Stegmaier: in the hobby probably know us best from Psy or Viticulture. That's the board game side. I mean, I know we're gonna go into the spiritual side and some other personal stuff, which I'm completely open to, but I'll let you lead where you where you want that to go. Daniel: No, that's great. That's great. Thank you. And you also create a lot of content about the board gaming world too, Jamey Stegmaier: Yes. Daniel: as well, on YouTube and through your website. And we want to ask you to share how people can find you later on. at the end of the episode, but just to lift up that content as well, I know I and a lot of other people out there too find the content that you put out kind of reflecting on board games and favorite mechanisms and the design process really helpful stuff if any of our listeners are interested in that just check that out. Jamey Stegmaier: I appreciate you highlighting that. Yeah, yeah, that, yeah, I have a blog on the Still My Art Games website that is about crowdfunding and entrepreneurship. It's my way of hopefully adding value to other creators who maybe can avoid some of the mistakes that I've made, and here's some of the insights that I've had throughout the process. And then I have a YouTube channel about game design where I generally share my favorite mechanisms about games. So I try to keep it positive. I'm not a reviewer. I just get to talk about game mechanisms that I really enjoy and share my love for a vast variety of games on that channel. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, that's great. And that positivity really makes the videos a joy to watch. So thank you Jamey Stegmaier: Thanks. Daniel: for sharing those. And you are, we're talking about before we started the show, at least as of now, you didn't grow up a Missourian, but you're a Missourian now. And we were comparing Missouri notes. You're out in St. Louis, I'm Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah Daniel: in Columbia. And I... I share with you on Arab, you make me Missouri proud in terms of the board Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah Daniel: game world and such great games coming out of Missouri. Certainly, Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Daniel: yeah, a lot of great games that we're thankful for Stonemaier putting out. So yeah, so you mentioned games Jamey Stegmaier: Thank you. Daniel: that you played as a kid. Would you mind if I asked Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Daniel: what did you play growing up? Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah, some of the games I played as a kid, some like really old classics like chess, Millborne, played Scotland Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: Yard, Key to the Kingdom, which recently got a completely new reboot of that game that Daniel: Really? Jamey Stegmaier: I also enjoy. I played a little bit of Magic the Gathering when I was a teenager and Risk played quite a bit of Risk when I was a kid too. Yeah, Daniel: Okay. Jamey Stegmaier: a pretty good Daniel: And Jamey Stegmaier: variety. Daniel: was this kind of like a, like a, were these like family activities or, or with your friends or who were you playing with growing up? Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah, it was a combination of the two. I had some good friends from a young age that we played a lot of games with, but also as a family, it was definitely a family activity. My dad and my mom have been together my whole life, and I have a sister who's one year younger and a brother who's five years younger. And just for context, I guess, for people who are listening, I'm 42, so I was born in 1981, before I would say maybe the advent of modern board gaming, but there were some good games back then, and we had some good quality family time playing them together. Daniel: May I ask, do you still have opportunity to play with family sometimes? Jamey Stegmaier: Sometimes, yeah. As you said, I'm in Missouri now. I Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: grew up in Virginia and my mom, my dad passed away last year. My mom and my brother and sister, their families are within around 10 minutes of my mom. They both ventured out into different parts of the country, but they all came back to Virginia. And so when I visit home, I play games with my mom, with my nieces, my nephews, my brother, my brother-in-law. I love doing that. But we don't play remotely very much. It's only when I go back home or when they come here that I Daniel: Okay, Jamey Stegmaier: play games with Daniel: okay, Jamey Stegmaier: them. Yeah. Daniel: all right. Jamey Stegmaier: Did you Daniel: And Jamey Stegmaier: play Daniel: then, Jamey Stegmaier: games growing up as a kid? Daniel: you know, I did, I did. I think in retrospect, I played games that probably weren't quite as big name, but they weren't like really the hobby board games either of the day, like Avalon Hill, nothing like that. I mean, of course I played Monopoly. But the two games I have the fondest memories of as a child are there's one called Bonkers. I think it was called Bonkers. It was, Jamey Stegmaier: Okay. Daniel: I think it was just like a roll and move like so many games were back then. And then there was another one. I think it was called Dungeon Dice. Dungeon Dice, where Jamey Stegmaier: Okay. Daniel: you roll dice into like this plastic dungeon. And then there were cards that you played that simulated like you're digging a tunnel out of the dungeon. And Jamey Stegmaier: Hmm. Daniel: I just have... Oh, and Superstition was another fun one too. Jamey Stegmaier: Okay. Daniel: These were very kind of tactical. Yeah, do you know Superstition? Yeah, yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Daniel: Yeah, so yeah, they were a lot of fun. And certainly most with my family too. So Jamey Stegmaier: Uh-huh. Daniel: yeah, thank you Jamey Stegmaier: Nice. Daniel: for asking. We've recently discovered Bandido and that also has a Jamey Stegmaier: I Daniel: similar Jamey Stegmaier: love you. Daniel: mechanism of putting carts together to dig tunnels out. And so anyway, it's been nostalgic for me. Jamey Stegmaier: Nice. Daniel: So yeah, thanks. So then how would you say, have you changed as a board gamer? Did you, at what point did you get interested in kind of a hobby board game world? Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. It was so I in my 20s, I continued to play games throughout my whole life. Like in college, I played a lot of hearts with friends. After college, I hosted a weekly poker night for many years, just a very low stakes poker night. And then your modern Euro games started to creep into my life in a very good way, like starting with Catan and. For a while we just played Catan. We just played Catan for a couple years. And then the next game was Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: Agricola, and we just played Agricola for years. It's very different than how my gaming hobby is now, because now I play so many new to me games. I have to play many games just one time and just kind of learn from it and move on with the designer mindset. Whereas back then we were just playing that one game over and over again, and Daniel: Right. Jamey Stegmaier: that brought me joy too, that we had a lot of Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: fun with that. Did you have that experience in your gaming career where you just focused on one game for a while? Daniel: That's a great question. I don't think as much, because I got away from board games for a while, for a long time actually, from about high school through just about five or 10, maybe about five or six years ago. And so when I got back in five or six years ago, I did play a lot of Dominion. That was the game that really kind Jamey Stegmaier: Oh Daniel: of got Jamey Stegmaier: yeah. Daniel: me into, back into the hobby again. And so we did play a lot of that. But then I pretty quickly discovered like, oh. there are all these other amazing board games. Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Daniel: But I think by that point, you know, there was already a pretty well developed, you know, content creator universe on the internet. And so I was watching all these videos and wanting to try all these new games. And but yeah, I guess Dominion would probably be the main one that I've played more than any other in terms of the modern hobby board games. Yeah, yeah. One thing that Kevin and I often like to talk about or we seem to get into on this show is that the distinction, and it may be a false distinction, our previous guest, Reverend Alice Connor, kind of questioned whether it's a real distinction or not, but you know what, that's often made between kind of Euro games and the kind of the Ameritrash thrash sort of games. And Kevin tends to enjoy more of the, kind of the Ameritrash thrash. I still don't know what to call it. And then, and I'm kind of more your side, but is that a distinction that's even mattered to you over even think about in terms of the games that you like or play or not or? Jamey Stegmaier: You know, I try to be self-aware of it because it does impact my designs and my publishing decisions. I try to stay attuned to what I enjoy, what I enjoy spending time on, and also what I think the... Market is enjoying but Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: the market is so many people now that there really isn't one market There are many different types of gamers and not every game can appeal to all of them. So It often comes back to hey, what do I want to spend my time on? What do Daniel: Right. Jamey Stegmaier: I want to play a lot? What do I want to? Think about a lot and for me most of that are ends up being Euro games where I have a, with a key differentiating factor being that I have a lot of agency over the decisions that I make. I have a lot of control over the decisions I make in the game. Not necessarily always their outcomes, not always the input, the random cards that I might see in a game, but the decisions I make I have control over. Daniel: Right, right. So is it fair to say, yeah, the games especially where there's less luck or at least mechanisms for mitigating the luck are games that especially appeal to you both as a gamer and a designer? Maybe, Jamey Stegmaier: For the most Daniel: or I Jamey Stegmaier: part, Daniel: don't put Jamey Stegmaier: but Daniel: words Jamey Stegmaier: I Daniel: in your Jamey Stegmaier: have Daniel: mouth. Yeah, yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: no, that is for the most part true. Although I have found that I really love push your luck games. And I think with Daniel: Yeah, Jamey Stegmaier: those Daniel: yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: kind of I'm opting into luck and deciding, do I want to stop now that I have something decent or do I want to push a little bit farther in the hopes of getting something better? I really like that decision point in games, Daniel: Yeah, Jamey Stegmaier: even though it's fully Daniel: yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: luck on that, you know, a final roll of the dice that is luck. But if I chose to roll those dice, that's fun for me. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, that is thrilling, the push your luck experience in games. And yeah, I'm with you. So, well, yeah, well, thanks for sharing a little bit about your kind of gaming background. So, yeah, why don't we shift a little bit kind of more toward kind of philosophy, spirituality, religious practices. Yeah, if you mind, please just share a little bit. How would you characterize your background in terms of that sphere, that realm? Jamey Stegmaier: Yes. Yeah. Um, so it's definitely, it's definitely changed quite a bit over the years. I grew up Catholic. My, my, both my, my mom and my dad are Catholic. They grew up Catholic and, um, we went to church every Sunday. We prayed together before meals and, um, I was, I was baptized. I was confirmed. I had my first communion in the Catholic church Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: and, uh, Then I went to college. I went to college here in St. Louis, Washington University. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jamey Stegmaier: On the first day of college, I needed to find a work-study job to help pay for the tuition. The job that I found was at the Catholic Student Center on campus, which is, while she was not a religious school, but they are a school that allows any religion to be associated with it. And so they have a Jewish center. They have a a Catholic church that's linked to the school but not directly. It's a weird association. Daniel: Okay. Jamey Stegmaier: But Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: yeah, I ended up working for all four years except for a year a year abroad at the Catholic Student Center as a work-study student. Daniel: Okay, okay. Let me ask, what did your work there entail? Jamey Stegmaier: Oh yeah, the work. was not particularly religious. It was a lot of data entry. I was Daniel: Okay. Jamey Stegmaier: helping the priest with technology stuff. The priest loved having the new gadget. And so I was always helping him set up the new, whatever the new gadget at the time was. I think back then it was Blackberries, and then eventually it was iPhones and things like that. Daniel: Right, right. Jamey Stegmaier: But I had mentioned that, I think partially the reason I mentioned that is that I think because of that connection, I did end up going to church throughout college as well. Every Sunday I would go to church. I went to a few retreats through that church. I'm not exactly sure in how. if that would have happened if I hadn't had that work study job, but I ended up meeting some great people and generally enjoying that experience throughout college. Daniel: Great, great, great. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for sharing. And then you mentioned kind of how things have maybe changed over the years. Have you seen kind of a change in your own understanding about kind of philosophically, spiritually in terms of, and I ask that only to... to explore that with happiness and joy. That, Jamey Stegmaier: Of course. Daniel: yeah, I think the story of how people kind of change and grow and evolve over the course of their lives is a delightful thing. And just, yeah, have you experienced, how would you characterize that in your life? Has it pretty much been the same for you most of your life? Or have you seen yourself change or grow in ways? Jamey Stegmaier: Well, so there is a turning point that happens a few years after that, maybe around 10 years after that really. Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: And we can talk about how I think my religious slash spiritual experience has hopefully shaped I think my company, the way I act as a person, as a publisher, I think Daniel: Yeah, Jamey Stegmaier: for the better. Daniel: yeah, yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: That is the now. The thing that happened in between, and I say this truly without judgment. Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: for anyone who's gone through a religious journey in any way. But I mentioned this church that was on the WashU campus. I had a job for about four years after college that was completely unrelated. I think I continued to go to church from time to time then, maybe every Sunday. It was a while ago. I don't have a good memory. But Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: after that job ended, I ended up getting a job at this Catholic Student Center at Wash U as their Director of Operations. And so Daniel: Okay. Jamey Stegmaier: not on the religious side of things at all, but I was managing the staff, I was managing the facility, a big fundraising event. And so everything was contributing to the church itself. And I was then very much going to church every Sunday, Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: and often even more than that because they had services on Tuesdays and Fridays. I would go way more than I had ever imagined going to church. The tipping point that I found. I mean, part of it is that working at a church, I think you sometimes see things that you don't see when you attend the church. And I don't necessarily mean nefarious things at all, Daniel: Right, Jamey Stegmaier: just Daniel: of course, of course. Jamey Stegmaier: we're all human and sometimes the things that, the face that we put forward to people to see in the world, you know, our Instagram version of ourselves, is not always what's actually happening behind the scenes. And so I saw a lot of that at this church. And again, not necessarily in a bad way, just in an eye opening way. Daniel: Of course, Jamey Stegmaier: And Daniel: of Jamey Stegmaier: I Daniel: course. Jamey Stegmaier: think the, the big tipping point for me near the end was that job ended. I ended up, uh, this is when still my game started to take off. And I decided to, uh, focus on that career instead of the career as the director of operations at this church. And I had a choice then was I going to continue going to church or not. And it was around that time that, uh, I, I started to. disconnects with the experience of attending church. At Catholic churches, there's lots of singing and chanting and I've kind of gone through those rhythms through my whole life. They're very comfortable. I can go into church right now and I would not have to think about it and I could say all those words. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: But I kind of realized that I wasn't, if I thought about many of those words that I was saying, that they weren't actually connecting with how I feel or necessarily what I believe. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jamey Stegmaier: And that kind of was a wake up moment for me. Like, why am I saying these things over and over again if I don't necessarily believe them? Daniel: Right, Jamey Stegmaier: Anyway, that's Daniel: right. Jamey Stegmaier: a long story. Maybe you have some thoughts or questions, but yeah, that was the tipping point for me to maybe stop going to church and focus more on who I am as a person and who I wanted to be as a publisher rather than who I wanted to be on Sundays. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, well said, well said. No, thanks for showing. And I completely understand and hear that. Yes, I don't hear that as, as you said, any kind of judgment at all. It's anything that's, Kevin and I come out of the United Methodist Church. And that's certainly been, I think, the experience we have found in United Methodist Churches, probably any church as well, that when you actually work for the church, whatever it is, it just, it's a different experience than when you just attend worship there. And Jamey Stegmaier: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: so yeah, so I can understand. So then how, thank you for sharing that. So how would you say then that background has shaped or your philosophy now, spirituality now has shaped your work as a publisher or a designer of board games. Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah, this is partially spirituality. This is partially, I think, who my parents are. It's partially who I have decided I want to be. And Stonemaier Games, we try really, really hard to make our games accessible, inclusive, and to treat other people the way that we wanna be treated. And a lot of those are philosophies that you see in a lot of different religions. And so I... My goal is to bring joy to tabletops worldwide. And a lot of that is about finding ways to get our games to people. But also when people have our games or don't have our games, just treating them with, with love and respect, um, every day and everything that I say. And so I think while I don't actively think like I'm doing this because of, uh, what I read in the Bible or what I learned in, um, in Sunday school. I think a lot of that is bled over. I've seen Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: what it's like to not treat people that way. I myself have not always treated people that way. There will be days when I don't treat people that way at all. But I always come back to that and it's nice to have that centering focus of trying to treat people well. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, that's great. I thank you. That's something that I have noticed and appreciated about your communication on social media and in other places as well, that there's always a very respectful and affirming. message that comes out of Stonemaier and out of your social media Jamey Stegmaier: Thank you. Daniel: and appreciate that intentionality about just kind of being accessible and inclusive to as many folks as possible. So that comes through and well done from an outsider's perspective on that. That's great. Jamey Stegmaier: Thank you. Daniel: Yeah. No, I... Some of your games that... I have some aspects of your games that I've especially appreciated about that, that for me at least comes through. I don't know if it was intentional or not. But I've heard you speak before about how much you value positive player interaction. I've Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Daniel: thought about that before. In a way, it seems to reflect maybe almost a spiritual value, the sense of I'm going to do something that benefits my neighbor too, versus tearing down my neighbor. How intentional are you about creating mechanisms like that? line up with this sort of philosophy of positivity and respect and affirmation. Jamey Stegmaier: I love the way you said that and you're right. It is one of my, that's one of my favorite things in games when there's positive player interaction, especially in a competitive game where I'm trying to win. I'm trying to have the most points, but I do this thing that I know will benefit other people too. That feels good to me. Those are some of my favorite moments in games that when I'm playing and I can do something that feels good, feels clever, but I also get to benefit other people. And it is intentional in the designs, but oftentimes I find that they are the types of moments and types of mechanisms that I have to stumble into through lots of playtesting. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jamey Stegmaier: I could definitely remember a moment designing Euphoria where there was a moment of, hey, this is easier if we work together in this moment right now, Daniel: Mmm. Jamey Stegmaier: even though in general we're competing. And it was kind of a magical moment during the playtest where I was like, oh wow, this really worked. I didn't know if it actually worked that way or if people would actually cooperate. But it was kind of magical to see that people's instincts can be in the right setting, in the right environment, can be to cooperate and work together, even when we're all living our own lives and trying to achieve our own goals. Daniel: That's great. That's great. We've talked before on this podcast about how, in some ways, games can kind of be like miniature practice, mini practice moments for larger life skills. And yeah, that's a great way of describing it. The other mechanism that I think goes along with this in at least a couple of your games that I know that I really love is the between two. games Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Daniel: and where your final score is the low score that you share with your neighbor, the lowest score. And I have praised that mechanism to so many people because it's like, Jamey Stegmaier: Hehehe Daniel: what is the message of that? The message is, if I want to win, I've got to try my darndest to make sure that all of my neighbors win too. And just that's so cool. Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Daniel: I love that, the message of that mechanism. And I don't know how intentional that was as well, but is that something you kind of stumbled into as well? Or did you approach that with kind of a... Like, I want to make a game that says this, or you know, how did you stumble into that? Jamey Stegmaier: Really that full credit for that one goes to designers Ben and Matthew for thinking of that. Daniel: Okay. Jamey Stegmaier: I had never even conceived that was a possible Daniel: Okay, okay. Jamey Stegmaier: mechanism and they pitched Between Two Cities to me and I was like wow that really works. And it's also Daniel: Yeah, Jamey Stegmaier: great Daniel: yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: for communication because you really need to actively communicate with these two people and the two people, the person on your left and your right, they don't actually care about each other. They are competing almost. Daniel: Yeah. Jamey Stegmaier: Indirectly they are competing with each other whereas you are trying to work with both of them That is a tough challenge a tough communication challenge And this is a game that we send to a lot of schools because I think it does aid communication skills Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, your role as well as kind of a negotiator, an in-between sort Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah. Daniel: of person too. So I know we're coming close to the end of our time here. Are there any matters in terms of kind of the global board game publishing industry that you feel kind of matters of spirituality, your philosophy kind of impacts as well? Jamey Stegmaier: You know, I talk about accessibility and inclusivity and that's a big umbrella and it's, some of the challenges I've found in that is that the way that we might include someone in St. Louis might feel very different in terms of how we can include someone in France or Australia Daniel: Mm-hmm. Jamey Stegmaier: or Japan. And so that has been a Challenge over the last few years and navigating how to best do that how to include everybody when we're probably just gonna make one copy of the game like we're not gonna make other than different language versions and that is a way to include people make different language versions for different languages, but it is open my eyes a lot to cultural sensitivity and Being more aware of how different cultures view different images different words and It's a it's I'm learning as I go like I don't think this is You know, there isn't one final answer to it. It's just pay attention. I try to ask questions. I try to listen more than I talk if I can, maybe not on today's podcast, but I try to do that. And Daniel: It's great. Jamey Stegmaier: hopefully that's reflected in our games. Daniel: Absolutely, yeah. It certainly seems that way to me. And yeah, and Jamie, thank you for being willing to talk a little bit today. And we really appreciate your sharing, your time. This has been a great conversation, great moments together. And if people want to find you on the internet, find out more about you, where can they find you? Jamey Stegmaier: Yeah, so all the different things that we talked about today are found on stonemaiergames.com. That's where you'll find the YouTube channel if you're curious about game design. You'll find the blog if you're interested in entrepreneurship and crowdfunding. And you can find all of our games there too if you're interested in checking out some games. Daniel: Great, great. Well, Jamie, thank you so much. We really appreciate your being on the podcast today. Thank you to our listeners. Thanks for tuning in. It is such a gift and a joy that you would share a few moments out of your day with us. And Kevin, I hope you're feeling better. We hope you're feeling better soon. So, all right, we'll talk. We'll see you all again soon and have a great day. Bye-bye. Jamey Stegmaier: Thank you.