Kevin: Once there was a man living in a time of fascism, oppression, racism, sexism, and technological changes. He bravely spoke of goodness and God and human flourishing. The year, well, the year was not 2023. The year was 1971, and the man is Jurgen Moltmann and his theology of play This week on Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly podcast on the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games! And I didn't cue up the music. Beep beep, so I'll drop it in here. Beep beep, ba da da. I want one. Before we get to Moltmann's struggle for theology of play, Daniel, can you tell us a little bit about our awesome contest? Daniel: I would love to talk about our awesome contest, Kevin. And by the way, my name is Daniel and your name is. Kevin: Daniel Kevin. Daniel: Daniel Kevin, and Kevin: I'm hyphenating, I'm Daniel Kevin. Daniel: I'm Kevin Daniel. That's not confusing at all. Or you can just call me Daniel, Kevin. Kevin: Oh yeah. Daniel: But we are grateful to have everybody Kevin: It's Daniel: listening Kevin: shorter. Daniel: in today. Thanks for tuning in on this episode about Juergen Moltmann. We are going to first though talk about this contest that we're having on... On Instagram, we have reached the milestone of a thousand followers and we're so excited and grateful for all of our wonderful followers on Instagram. And if you're not following us, you can find us at just look up board game faith on Instagram. And so to celebrate that we're having this contest where we're asking folks to post a picture of themselves with their favorite games in a place of worship in their place of worship. Could be a. mosque, a synagogue, a temple, a church, or some other holy place like outside or whatever is holy or sacred for you. And then to post that to Instagram with the hashtag boardgamefaith. That's how we are able to find you if you include that hashtag please. And then we're going to, at the end of June, we're going to be drawing randomly to see who the winners are. And we got that we're going to be giving away. We have a brand new, we're calling it our board game faith celebration t-shirt. This is a brand new t-shirt, different from the one that I'm wearing right now. It's kind of more of like a collegiate athletic sort of look because we're trying to look more sporty, Kevin. And Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: so it's kind of a Heather Gray thing with our logo kind of a skew and it's surrounded by our motto, board games are good for the soul, in two different languages, in Urdu, the native language of a good friend of the podcast, Ali Carrar, who has been on the podcast to speak about board games and Islam, and then in Japanese, the native language of Ono Takuya-san, who Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: has also been in our podcast to speak about Buddhism and board games. And so yeah, we're going to be giving those away. And the grand prize, in addition to a t-shirt, That person will get to help record the intro to our episode and to help us plan an episode as well. So, please, time is running out. Run it Kevin: You've Daniel: at Kevin: got Daniel: the Kevin: about Daniel: end of June. Kevin: one week left if you're Daniel: Exactly. Kevin: listening to this when it first drops. Daniel: Yep, yep. So, we would love to have you post and enter the contest. It would be great. Kevin: If this is our Martian overlords who have conquered and going through the data in 40 years, I was always on your side. I just want to tell you that. Daniel: That's exactly right. I can attest even offline Kevin has told me this. So he Kevin: always Daniel: has Kevin: been Daniel: a... Kevin: positive alien invasion yes Daniel: he'll text me in the middle of the night and say, Daniel, I love the Martians. And Kevin: I love the Barsteads. Daniel: I'll text back and say, I know, I know, Kevin. We need to get some sleep now. That's right. Kevin: I will never put tinfoil on my head because I want them to find to be. Yes, and also don't forget to like and subscribe to us here. We are on YouTube and we're a traditional podcast. So you may be listening to the audio version on the podcast player of your choice. Or you may be checking this out on YouTube with the video and the audio. So wherever we are, give us a like, review, a thumbs up, and we have a newsletter. And you can subscribe to boardgamefaith.com. Go to there and subscribe to our newsletter. Also, we request, after doing all those items, if you'll wash Daniel's car and trim my hedges. We would appreciate it. So Daniel: that's Kevin: Daniel, who Daniel: bonus Kevin: is, that's a bonus. Daniel: that's bonus Kevin: It's like a game. See, yeah. So Daniel, Juergen, Juergen. How's your German? Daniel: Jurgen Moltmann. Kevin: Juergen. Jürgen Daniel: My German's Kevin: Multmann. Daniel: not as good as my son's, but yes, I'll, I can. So Kevin: Tell Daniel: who Kevin: us Daniel: is Kevin: a little Daniel: Jurgen Kevin: about, Daniel: Moltmann? Kevin: we'll just, yeah, we'll just keep it American and say Maltman, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Maltman. Tell us a little about him. Daniel: Yes, well, Jurgen Moltmann was born in 1926 and he is still alive, which was a surprise, I think, for both you and me in preparation for this episode. I know when I was in seminary a long, long time ago, and probably you too, Kevin, we learned about Moltmann along with the names of other theologians who have long ago passed away, but Mollmann is still alive Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and how wonderful is that? Kevin: It's Daniel: He's a Kevin: almost Daniel: German Kevin: 100 Daniel: Re- of Kevin: years old. Daniel: almost 100 years old, a German Reformed theologian who's a professor emeritus of systematic theology at the University of Tübingen in Germany. Side note. Kevin: Cheerio again. Daniel: I've mentioned in the past that I have some German Mennonite relatives. When I have visited them in the Stuttgart area of Germany, I remember noticing Jurgen Moltmann theology books on their bookshelves. Even Kevin: Wow. Daniel: though neither of them are, you know, theologians by profession, they were interested in his work. He's known for such books as Theology of Hope, The Crucified God, and God in Creation. Kevin: Of course, the one I have is not one that I guess is one of the more famous ones, but the experiment hope Daniel: the experiment hope. That's okay, there's many I haven't read either. Jurgen Moltmann was drafted in 1943 to fight for Nazi Germany in World War II. He surrendered in 1945, was a prisoner of war in Belgium, became a Christian. converted to Christianity and then was a prisoner of war in Scotland and England. He went home in 1948, earned a doctorate from the University of Göttingen in 1952, and then went on to be a pastor and a professor and a prolific author and a significant theological voice in the conversation of how Christianity intersects with the world still today. Kevin: I think it's just amazing that this poor young kid in a POW camp ends up becoming this academic and theological giant. Like who knew that Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: sort of, there was the kindness of chaplains and others who were reaching out to him that led him to make a huge career and life choice. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. And I'm not very familiar with the story of his conversion experience, but I would be interested to find out more about that sometime and just kind of what that journey Kevin: Because I don't think Daniel: looked Kevin: he grew Daniel: like Kevin: up very Daniel: for Kevin: religious, Daniel: him. Kevin: the Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: very brief reading I did. It Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: was really fighting in a war that evidently he really didn't want to fight in, but also living with the pain of the post-war period for Germany. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: So it led him to become a deeply convicted Christian and thinker. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. So one of the books that Jurgen Moltmann went on to write is this one that we're considering today, A Theology of Play, right Kevin? And he said he wrote that Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: one in Kevin: and Daniel: 1971. Kevin: it's 1971, too? Daniel: somewhere around there. Kevin: Somewhere around there. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's 71, 1971. This is the only significant writing of a mate. I mean, these are all. difficult categories, but in terms of sort of a canonical theologian, someone who's had a wide influence, and that's always up for debate who's among that. But Daniel: Right. Kevin: regardless, he's one of the main ones to write about play. Is that fair? Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: Or to have a single volume. I mean, there may be others that have occasionally had a chapter or two or a couple of paragraphs, but... Daniel: Right, no, I think that's exactly right. I mean, you don't, you know, I think about the other authors that I like to read, you know, we don't have, or that I know of significant, you know, there aren't works about the value of play from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, though he may, though he does talk about it in some places, or more contemporarily, you know, Barbara Round-Taylor, or Thomas Merton or Martin Luther King Jr. or you know, any of these folks, they don't, it's not a very common subject. In fact, for a while there, Kevin, I know when you and I were first getting into this research for theology of play, I think kind of jokingly referred to it as kind of the holy grail of books on theology of play, because it was so hard Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: to find, it's out of print. But you were able to find a Kevin: My, Daniel: copy. So Kevin: yeah, Daniel: yeah. Kevin: Pfeiffer University had a copy in the library. So if you're curious to read this for yourself, you might check out a local library, a university library, which sometimes is open to the public, or you may be able to get borrowing rights if you live in the community, or if not, you probably can just get in there and read it there at the library. It's a hard work, but it's actually not that long. It's a little deceiving, I think, the book itself, because it's actually... three different kind of long essays. Is that Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: fair? And so it's like they cobbled together this thing for publication. And I don't know what the publication was like in Germany, but in English, this is the English translation. Daniel: Right. Kevin: The Klingon version is really good though. It really Daniel: It is. Kevin: has a lot to it. Daniel: It is. They have trouble translating the word for giddyness though. There's not much of a Klingon sense of giddyness. Kevin: Yeah, yeah, I know they had a footnote there about it, which was useful. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. But you're right. I mean, it doesn't feel like you're reading a systematic theology, which is not a complaint. I've never been much of a systematic theology guy myself in terms of how my brain is wired. Not that there's anything wrong with it. It's just, I personally don't mind that it's not a systematic theology, but it's a dense work. We were talking about this before starting Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: recording. Kevin, I was sharing with you, you know, I am... What I find challenging about reading it is I'll get I'll read like I've had to read it several times, but I'll read like these multiple paragraphs where I finally feel like I get his argument of what he's saying. And then after all that, I finally realized that he is constructing this argument just to reject it, just to say that it's wrong. And it doesn't Kevin: Right. Daniel: he doesn't have those kind of verbal like we might have maybe in more modern scholarship writings where he'll say something like, no, I don't really believe this, but here's what Kevin: Mm-hmm Daniel: my opponents say or things like that. He doesn't really give us those kind of textual markers to let us know that he's delving into something that he disagrees with, you know, and it's not till the end of the section where he says, but this is why it's wrong. Kevin: Right? Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: No, I Daniel: yeah. Kevin: had the same frustration too. It's from 50 years ago and some of the fights and arguments he's picking, he's not seeing the Berlin Wall fall. He's not seeing the collapse of the USSR. So he's still thinking in terms of Cold War and he's Daniel: Right. Kevin: thinking in terms of... Yeah, yeah, it's hard to get your head around his concerns because they are different and he speaks about them indirectly. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: Yeah, so we're just looking at pages 1 to 14, to be honest. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: So we will Daniel: yeah. Kevin: have a follow-up. So this is book club with surprise suckers. Daniel: Book Club! Kevin: Book club with occasional Daniel: Boltmon... Kevin: microphone scratching. Daniel: Yeah. Wee wee. Kevin: My name is Molt Mon. I don't know Daniel: Weegee weegee. Can you give me a Boltmon? That's horrible. I don't even know what that means. Kevin: what that. I think, and so, Whether you read this or not or have read it, here's our attempted outline of what's going on in these first 14 pages. I think Daniel, one thing to highlight in the first part of this, his first question is, is it moral to play games in a hurting world? Daniel: Yep. Kevin: So he's starting it from a place of compassion, that there are people out there that are suffering from war, famine, disease. either working to end those problems, address them, or should we at least refrain from doing something that is fun? Daniel: Right. Kevin: So, given the problems of the world, is it right to do something silly like playing games and having joy and laughter? It's almost like a weird Puritan question. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: Why would you waste your time? being frivolous, you should be busy. It's the kind of thing John Wesley would have said. I think he was against gaming, correct? Because it's frivolous. You could be knitting or crocheting or building a ramp or studying religious poetry or something like that. But ultimately, Moltmann's going to push against that, and one basis he has is Psalm 126. which says, when the Lord restored the fortunes of Zion, we were like those who dream, then our mouth was filled with laughter. And Psalms are in the Christian and Hebrew Bible, and so here there's a place for in the midst of joy to laugh, and it seems like he's wanting to connect happiness, joy, and laughter, and freedom, because in that verse is when the people of Israel get to be free in Zion. Does that seem fair to you? Daniel: Yeah, no, I think that's an excellent summary. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, I think he really gets it in the very, really just the first few pages, this moral dilemma, this conundrum that I think a lot of people feel around play and gaming in some ways, may almost kind of the world outside of gamers maybe feel it even a little bit more, which is just exactly what you said. You know, that just seems in bad taste or Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: tone deaf or just insensitive to devote a portion of our lives to play and fun and games when there is so much suffering and hurt in the world, right? And you know another, and you're right, so he's trying to move us toward that wonderful psalm that you mentioned 126, and he contrasts it with kind of the question asked in psalm 137. Psalm 137 being interesting, you know, how can we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land, you know, this song, psalm that was written in what's known as the Babylonian captivity, when people were, when Israelites were taken from the homeland and forced to live in this faraway And they're saying like, how can we rejoice when we're in this, when we're in captivity, when we're in exile, you know, how can we sing? How can we be happy? How can we play? And you're exactly right. He really lifted that up. And I feel like that's such an important question. that I think anyone who's wrestling with play and games and theology and spirituality and religion has to ask at some point, because if we don't ask it, certainly the world will ask it of us. I know I have kind of encountered that when I have talked sometimes in some circles about the importance of play and games. There's sometimes this spoken... Pushback, sometimes unspoken pushback, like, well, you know, really? Like, there are so many more important things you could be talking about. So many more important things you could be doing to be making the world a better place right now. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Um, you could be like, you know, again, all of what you've been pointing out, you know, relieving suffering, relieving hunger, um, trying to dismantle racism or, you know, um, and you're just playing, you know, that's Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: pretty self-indulgent of you, you know. So yeah, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: so he Kevin: I- Daniel: really begins with that contrast, yeah. Kevin: Yeah, and he's picking up, there's a quote here, he says, these sketches, you know, he's meaning these succeeding pages, these, I guess he's kind of admitting it's a sketch of an idea, these sketches seek to reassert the value of aesthetic joy, so the joy and beauty and happiness and, yeah, of enjoying play, really, against the absolute claims of ethics. which I take to mean, well, you ought to, son, you ought to be doing something about this. You ought to be fixing the environment. You ought to be pressure washing your deck, right? So you're a bad person if you don't do it. It's just very Lutheran type notion of it's, these claims are absolute and that's the law. Daniel: Right. Kevin: And against that, he's picking up. And even though he himself would think is more Calvinist, and these are kind of schools of thought within. Protestant theology coming from some of the Protestant leading Protestant voices But here he's sounding a little more like Luther. I think which is we're supposed to be about grace and Joy and freedom and not about thou shalt Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: You must your which is which is a sense of being judged and evaluated. You're a bad person if you don't do what if you're not always about doing good. Daniel: Exactly, Kevin: And he's Daniel: exactly. Kevin: saying, no, that's not really who we are. We're not about doing, we're about being free creatures. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Which, interestingly enough, I think, interestingly, for me at least, translates into a position of critique and criticism from Altman toward both the right and the left. You know, and I find that Kevin: Mm. Daniel: so interesting in this, in our polarized world today, you know, especially here in the United States, such high polarization between the right and the left. Even though this is 50 years... ago, there's something almost kind of refreshing about that, you know, a voice that says, you know what, neither the right nor the left really has got this. And Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: that seeing them ultimately, and also he critiques political movements and theological movements on the right and the left, both as well. He says that ultimately, they both can kind of arrive at the same place. They both end up at the same place, which is what you're talking about, Kevin, this sense of... of the absolute demands of their own ethical system, right? And I find that fascinating. He finds that there's in his mind, really kind of not much hope for a movement toward authentic freedom and being authentically human. from either the right or the left or from any kind of political revolution or theological reformation, but ultimately it's just in the sense of play, you know, and I find that very refreshing in our day and age. Kevin: Yeah, and so our Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: human identity is not about movements or isms or political identities, it's to be identified in this phrase from an 18th century German poet named Herter, who said that human beings are the first liberated being in creation, that we're the first beings that, and I guess by this he's saying we are the first ones that have knowledge and can plan our own freedom. Daniel: Right. Kevin: So, and I don't know if the first means in terms of thinking about the creation story that's told in the Bible, or he's just thinking in terms of mental growth, that we have the mental ability to be self-conscious and self-aware. Or he's thinking in terms of redemption that because we've been, as Christians, from a Christian point of view, we've been redeemed by Christ, so that makes us liberated in the sense that Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: we're both sinners and forgiven. Daniel: Right. Kevin: So I don't know enough about Herder or Moltmann here to know what they mean by first, but I think it's this idea of anticipation that we're supposed to be truly human, and we should be free, and freedom enjoys joy and laughter and not... you know. Daniel: right. Kevin: Now that you've waxed my car, wax it again, right? Daniel: Right, right, right. That strict kind of ethicism is, is ethicism a word? I don't know. Anyway, is, Kevin: ethicism. Daniel: ethicism, that strict ethicism Kevin: See you nemenemene. Daniel: is, you know, is something that has arrived at from either political perspective. Yeah, it's just, you know, it's, Kevin: Right. Daniel: whether, you know. Oh, you gotta, you gotta make sure to follow these rules that the right says, or, oh, you gotta make sure to follow the rules that the left says, you know, but either Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: way, it's Kevin: they Daniel: about Kevin: both Daniel: following Kevin: have rules Daniel: rules, Kevin: that Daniel: right? Kevin: tell you you're good or bad person. Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: The judge. Daniel: right. So I mean, so in response to this critique that you really are ignoring, or is it right to play in light of the suffering of the world? Yeah, so that's, so Moltmann says in part, you know, that this isn't about, well, he says it's not about ignoring the suffering, right? It's about, it's about. transforming the suffering that he has this point where he says early on he says, I'm not writing this book for you all who ignore the suffering of the world, who look at the world through rosy, who pink colored glasses and think, rose colored Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: glasses and think that there's no suffering in the world. He says, I'm writing this book for people who are feeling so overwhelmed by the suffering of the world that they're kind of on the edge of despair, you know, and Kevin: Right. Daniel: so that's who I'm I'm writing this book for people who know the suffering of the world very, very well. Kevin: Yeah, and you had a great comment there that someone told you about an attitude towards suffering and misery. You were sharing that before. Share that again. Daniel: Yeah, oh, well, thanks. Yeah, I had encountered this in a couple different places, but this sense that, you know, it... If it relieved the suffering of the world for me to commit myself to a life of miserableness, then yes, go ahead, commit yourself to a life of miserableness if it relieves the suffering of others. But the truth is it doesn't work that way, right? That my commitment... My committing myself, if I chose to do that, to a life of being miserable will in no way relieve the suffering of other people. In fact, it'll probably contribute to the overall sense of suffering and miserableness in the world because Kevin: So good. Daniel: whatever miserableness we have in Kevin: Such Daniel: our hearts Kevin: a great, Daniel: has a way of... Kevin: yeah. Daniel: Yeah. So go ahead. Kevin: I've got two thoughts. No, you finish yours, then I'm gonna follow up. Daniel: Well, just, I mean, I guess even in kind of a very scientific sense, or maybe not very scientific sense, but physical sense that the, you know, every family, I think, if you go, if you expand your circle large enough, deals with some sort of chronic health conditions, you know, and our family is no different, you know, we have chronic health conditions in our, in our family circle. And I remember at one point when we were consulting with doctors and medical teams on that, they said that too. Like, if it would help this chronic health condition for you to feel bad about it, to worry about it, whatever, go for it. But it's not. What's going to make it better is... Live a full and joyful life, you know and find good ways of managing it I mean don't ignore it take it seriously, but But couple that taking it seriously with joy, you know And and it's not gonna make it any better for you to be miserable, you know, and I thought that I found that really helpful Kevin: Oh, Daniel: Yeah Kevin: it's so good. Oh, okay. Daniel: Anyway, Kevin: I've Daniel: what Kevin: got Daniel: are you Kevin: three Daniel: thinking? Kevin: things to share. All Daniel: Okay. Kevin: right. Daniel: Okay Kevin: First one, first one. When I was a student chaplain, this was part of seminary field education. So I was a student hospital chaplain. I Daniel: Mm. Kevin: remember, and I'd forgotten about this till you just told that story there about that encounter with the, you know, the doctors giving you advice. I encountered this woman who was in the dementia ward and she really could not remember much from, you know, recent times and she's like I have this pain in my stomach but I don't know why. Oh well like she wasn't too worried but she's like I had this pain. I found out later she'd had a hysterectomy a few days ago but had no memory of it. Daniel: Interesting. Kevin: But what was really interesting is she was so free. Like Daniel: Yes! Kevin: I grew up in a family where I've been like oh I hope it's okay. Is it getting infected? Like you would worry about the surgery. Did they get it all? What's Daniel: Yes. Kevin: the prognosis? The doctor have a It was like a pain in her tummy and she was unconcerned. And I thought, Daniel: Yes. Kevin: wow, that is kind of, it shows you how weird attitudes and thinking can be because if you're relaxed, you'll actually heal better if you're positive, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: if instead Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: of worrying. So to first anecdote there about the strange bit of embracing joy in the midst of suffering. and illnesses and chronic conditions. Another is that at church we're doing Sunday school, and we are reading through the Gospel of Mark, and it just reminded me there's these curious bits in Mark chapter 2, and this is in the Christian New Testament, where the Pharisees and some of the other enemies of Jesus say, why are you and your disciples not fasting? Do you remember this? And Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: Jesus Daniel: that's so Kevin: just Daniel: good. Kevin: like... Daniel: That's such Kevin: Well, Daniel: a great Kevin: this Daniel: example. Kevin: is just not the time for it. Daniel: Right, Kevin: He kind of Daniel: right, Kevin: gives a Daniel: right. Kevin: really strange cryptic answer of like, well, you don't you don't fast when the bridegroom's here. But then he doesn't Daniel: Right. Kevin: really explain it. He's just like and then he also does the bit of I'm the Lord of the Sabbath. But you could read those as saying, you know, the rules are there and they're not bad, but. There are times for joy, too. Daniel: Right, right, right. Kevin: And and I could see them, you know, it could have been the question of why are you playing? board games when there's all these problems happening. Daniel: That's so good. Kevin: And along this is really kind of an echo of the first point. Number three, my top Daniel: Number Kevin: three Daniel: three. Kevin: comments in response. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: This is like a Dice Tower video, three Daniel: I like Kevin: comments Daniel: it. I Kevin: to Daniel: like Kevin: Daniel. Daniel: it. Number three. Kevin: My third one is that when people are suffering, while they want empathy, but They also want some joy in their lives. So if there's something bad going on, they actually want to be around happy people, at least some, I mean, it depends on the person and the timing. And they also don't want to just be sick. They don't want to be categorized as sick or mourning Daniel: Right. Kevin: or whatever. They actually would like people to talk about something else. And they Daniel: Yep. Kevin: might actually want you to tell jokes and laugh and have fun Daniel: Yep, Kevin: so that Daniel: yep, Kevin: they get to forget Daniel: yep. Kevin: about their troubles. And maybe that's partly what he's getting at too, is that You don't always help people in problems by sitting around going, oh, this is the worst. Daniel: Right, right, right. Kevin: you know, joy can be infectious, and they need a little time with that Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: to Daniel: yeah. Kevin: help deal with the suffering, not to ignore it, but hopefully, like you're saying, to transform it. So Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: yeah. Daniel: yeah. Oh, that's so good. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, it reminds you of a few other quotes, too, that a quote that's kind of haunted me. I don't think there's absolute truth in this, but there's the sense like imagining a situation where a person's at the bottom of a pit, you know, and Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: they'll say, you know, there is some value for saying, well, I'll be with you in that pit. You know, I'll be Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: with you in the midst of that suffering. But then I've also Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: heard it's like, but you know, rather than have someone be with me in the pit, I'd rather somebody be above the pit with a rope. You know, like can pull me out of the pit, you Kevin: Right? Daniel: know. And so there's that, and which is easier said than done, of course, often. But then it... Oh, all these is all we need. We should, I'm excited to talk more about this in future episodes. Miroslav Wolf, another theologian has this book called The End of Memory, and I have not made it all the way through it, but you know, but he plays with this idea, you talking about the woman who has dementia, you know, and the pain on the side that in some ways we have, of course, of course we have to have memory, of course. That's how we in some ways prevent. suffering from happening again, you know, that whole thing about, you know, if you don't remember your history, you repeat it. And I believe that we have to commemorate and remember the atrocities and the pain and the suffering of the past. But on the other hand, not on the other hand, but he also just talks about that memory is kind of what also keeps suffering alive for us too, you know, and how in some time, in some ways. And how do you how do you balance those things out? I don't know. You know, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. It reminds me of another great theological song, the Black Eyed Peas, One Tribe Y'all. Kevin: Here we go. Daniel: And I don't mean to use the word, the word tribe can be a little bit problematic. I'm just quoting the name of the song. It's just called One Tribe Y'all. But the chorus of One Tribe Y'all is One Tribe. It's One Tribe Y'all, let's catch amnesia. Let's catch amnesia, forget about all that evil. that evil that they feed you. You know, so this value of amnesia, of kind of Kevin: Yes. Daniel: letting go of, anyway, which again, it's easier Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: said than Kevin: yeah. Daniel: done, and it's problematic Kevin: Oh, Daniel: in itself, but yes. Kevin: yeah. Ah, you just reminded me of something. Oh, Daniel: Yes, let's go for Kevin: gosh. Daniel: it. I want to hear it. Kevin: Here we go. It's Daniel: This Kevin: going. Daniel: is like a ping pong, a ping pong game of ideas. I like it. Let's see what it would... I just want Kevin: Maltman, Daniel: to hear Kevin: ping Daniel: it. Ha Kevin: pong, Daniel: ha Kevin: go. It's to Maltman's credit that he's hit on something so deep that we keep we keep. Yeah, kind of thinking, you know, connecting Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: all these dots. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: But Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Supreme Court justice who died. Just in the past year or so, year or two years, but she made the comment, she was married for a very long time She said, you know in a marriage you have to be a little deaf Which is such a great idea in any type of long-term relationship That you kind of have to just pretend you didn't hear something Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: That by that she that we're all not at our best and at times things are said and you could either you know, let them fester or you can just pretend you never heard it. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: And I think that's such a great sort of idea of how you negotiate difficult times or stressful times, is that sometimes you just kind of there's the memory but you just set it aside because otherwise that memory can... ruin everything, really. Daniel: Right. How Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: could, yes, and how can you hold on to the memories of the beautiful times and the positive times and give as much weight to them as the memories of the bad stuff and hard stuff to figure out. May I make one last, one last thing? Kevin: Malt Maw and Ping Pong. Daniel: Sorry, that Kevin: Did Daniel: it's Kevin: you know that Malt Maw is really good at Ping Pong actually? He Daniel: You know? Kevin: was going to go to the Olympics in 1958, Daniel: Yes. Kevin: I believe, Daniel: Yes. Kevin: and that was going to take place in the Antarctica Research Station. Daniel: That's right, that's right. Kevin: That was the one year it was in the very northern hemisphere. Daniel: Yeah, no, exactly. I remember, you know, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: I had almost forgotten about that, but Kevin: But he had Daniel: I remember Kevin: that toe Daniel: that Kevin: fungus, Daniel: in our research Kevin: I think he had a toe fungus Daniel: he did. Kevin: that prevented him Daniel: He did. You Kevin: from Daniel: know, Kevin: competing Daniel: there's, Kevin: in the end. Daniel: talking about the Holy Grail of books, you can actually find a limited edition Moltmann ping pong t-shirt from that era, Kevin: I'm out. Daniel: like early. It says Moltmann ping pong forever. And Kevin: point Daniel: if someone out there could find it, it would be great. I'd love it. Kevin: and I had it also wait what are creatures that molt Daniel: Um... Kevin: a snakes Daniel: snakes? Snakes molt? Kevin: yeah Daniel: Lizards Kevin: so Daniel: molt? Kevin: there's one there's one I saw a molt mon ping pong t-shirt and I had two snakes and one says molt man Daniel: Oh, Kevin: like molt Daniel: clever, Kevin: dude yeah Daniel: clever. Kevin: like Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: one Daniel: yeah. Kevin: sneak was sent to the other Daniel: Yeah, I like it. I like it. We Kevin: He never, Daniel: have. Kevin: Moltmann, he didn't speak English, so he never got the joke. Cause, well actually, I don't know that. I just made that up and Daniel: you Kevin: he never understood that joke. Daniel: Um... Kevin: Unless in German it is Molt, and then it would work. I don't know. What does that name mean? Mann Daniel: I Kevin: is man, right? Daniel: actually looked it up before this episode, Kevin: Oh God, you're such a nerd. Daniel: but Kevin: I must look Daniel: I didn't Kevin: up Daniel: have Kevin: the Daniel: it. Kevin: etymology of Maltemann. Daniel: I didn't have it, but I didn't find anything too definitive. But the one thing, just circling back to this critique Kevin: Yeah, you're a Daniel: of Kevin: ping Daniel: play, Kevin: pong. Daniel: that Kevin: Uh-huh. Daniel: why can't you be more productive? I do think that is a sign. which is another episode we need to do at some point, which is too big for this episode, of how Kevin: such a great podcast. Daniel: much we are formed without even realizing it, everyone in our world today, by the ethical system that comes out of the Industrial Revolution and what we might call, what's commonly called in the West, the Protestant work ethic. But this sense, in some ways, is tied into the Protestant Reformation as well. But for the last 500 years, we've all been nurtured in the unspoken, system of ethics that teaches us that our greatest value of human beings is to be productive, right? And that is the ultimate ethic. In fact, Moldman refers to this as the morality of achievement, right? That that is the ultimate measure of value and worth. Are we productive? Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Can we achieve? And that comes straight out of... the industrial revolution, in some ways it comes out of the Protestant Reformation. Ironically, because the whole thing, idea about the Protestant Reformation is we're not saved by grace. Well, we're not saved by works, we're saved by grace. Well, how do we know that we have grace? We're really productive, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: you Kevin: yeah, Daniel: know, Kevin: it's Daniel: and then that Kevin: a Daniel: leads to, Kevin: you can't make this up the ironies. Daniel: yeah, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: that leads to, you know, rampant excesses in capitalism. It leads in some ways, it contributes to this ideology that under that, that that was the underpinning of thinking that human slavery was okay, you know, it just leads to all sorts of excesses and evils, this idea that our highest value is being productive. And so anyway, I just lift that up as, Kevin: Yep, in the words Daniel: yeah. Kevin: of the English poet William Wordsworth, getting and spending, we lay waste our powers, little in nature that is ours. Something like Daniel: Oh Kevin: that. Daniel: my goodness. Kevin: It's all about getting and spending. We're actually losing what the power of being human. Because we reduce it to getting and spending. Daniel: That's so good. Kevin: Yep, and unfortunately, even board games are corrupted by this because we get taken in by the latest game or expansion or collections so Daniel: Whoa, Kevin: even Daniel: whoa, Kevin: something that Daniel: whoa. Kevin: should be about play i know it cuts like a knife but it Daniel: You're Kevin: feels Daniel: stepping Kevin: so Daniel: on Kevin: wrong Daniel: toes now, man. Kevin: i know i know the cult of the new Daniel: No, you're right, you're Kevin: back Daniel: right, Kevin: this Daniel: you're right. Kevin: game Daniel: You're Kevin: back Daniel: right, Kevin: this Daniel: you're right. Kevin: game back Daniel: Which Kevin: this Daniel: I think Kevin: game Daniel: is exactly, Kevin: back Daniel: exactly a great point, which needs to be said, but I think also, also makes it important for us to say at this point that in exploring this idea of play and games, Moltmann and others are really looking at it from a broader philosophical point of just the role of playing games in the human experience in general, not, not specifically, you know, the second edition Kickstarter of, you know, Brass Birmingham or whatever, but yeah, Kevin: Right. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: Is there a new one? Daniel: No, but I wish. Kevin: So great. Daniel: Perhaps Birmingham Part Two more. Kevin: Why is it called brass? Because they're brass factories? Daniel: I don't remember any brass in the game. Kevin: They don't. It's the Daniel: More. Kevin: most enigmatic name. I think that's an AI-generated title. Daniel: And maybe, so that's Kevin: Anywho. Daniel: the first theme that you got from this, Kevin, was this idea of, you know, is it, how moral is it for us to play in a world of suffering? Right. And then we come Kevin: Wait, Daniel: to second Kevin: wait. Daniel: theme, right? Kevin: I Daniel: Oh, Kevin: hate Daniel: I feel Kevin: it when Daniel: like you- Kevin: it's theme two at 40 minutes. This is terrible. I'm at Daniel: Do Kevin: a decision Daniel: it. Kevin: point. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Do we keep going on the expedition or do we take the loot back? to headquarters. Daniel: Do we want to push our luck? Should we turn over the next card and see Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: what it is? Kevin: is this a push or luck moment? Alright, let's go for it. Let's go for it. I think we can do Daniel: Okay, Kevin: it, Daniel. Daniel: okay, Kevin: Go ahead. Daniel: all right, all Kevin: What's Daniel: right, all right. Kevin: the second theme in these pages? Daniel: in the pages one through 14, man, this is just pages one through 14. We're going to talk about this book forever. So the second major theme that you identified so well in our in our show notes beforehand is this our games then. So can games be our games, an instrument of oppression or freedom? And so this is what this is what he's talking about. He he says that given the systems of oppression that we live in, given the fact as he as we shared earlier, that Moltmann believes that ultimately all political revolutions and even theological reformations can lead us away from freedom toward greater oppressiveness, oppression. He said, in those systems, games still exist, but games are used as tools of oppression. They are seen as what he calls kind of release valves of letting off steam. so that we can get a little simulation of freedom and Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: then go back to being cogs in the machine again. Right. Kevin: Yes. Daniel: And so he says, and you know, we encounter this all the time in our common language about games. We talk about games as well. You know, we play games, we play, we go on vacation, we take a Sabbath, we do all this stuff to recharge. Right, we're recharging. We're letting off some steam. We're recharging our souls. We're doing this so that why? That's the critical point that we never think Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: about. So that why? So that we can go back and be better workers again. Right? Kevin: Yes. Daniel: So that we can go back and be more productive again. So that we can go back and be better cogs in the machine again. Right? Kevin: And this is a deep theme of the grasshopper as well. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: The Daniel: Yep, Kevin: ant Daniel: yep. Kevin: versus the grasshopper. The ant, yeah, you were supposed to be cogs in the machine and the grasshopper, and games only exist to make you a better cog to work Daniel: Exactly. Kevin: harder. Daniel: They're not Kevin: And Daniel: an Kevin: the grasshopper's Daniel: end to itself. Kevin: like, no, we are the game. We play games, that's what we are. Daniel: Exactly, exactly. Are games Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: a means to an end or are they the end Kevin: Yes, Daniel: in and of themselves? Kevin: yes, yes. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: So ancient Rome did this with the bread and circuses. Give the people food and fun and then they won't rise up and rebel or they'll be better workers. Daniel: Right. Kevin: So bread and circus panam et circus something Daniel: I, yeah, I think that's the Latin, Kevin: Panem et Circensis... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir... Cir Daniel: you know, more. Okay, I'm impressed. It sounds very erudite to Kevin: Panem. Daniel: me. Kevin: But interestingly, in The Hunger Games, the city there is called Panem, and she knowingly did that because in that movie and books, it's picking up on this theme that there is a competition that distracts everyone, that can you survive The Hunger Games, and that makes them better workers to Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: feed the riches of Panem. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: That's Daniel: yeah. Kevin: exactly what that book is about in some ways. So Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: maybe games or our own political power that religion and games are the opiate of the people, as Karl Marx said about just religion, that it soothes us so that we just keep working. Daniel: Right, that is how the systems of oppression view games. They don't say that games aren't important. They see games as ways of keeping us ultimately in service to the system, right? I remind you also of Hunger Games is such a great example. I have played the game Trajan by Stefan Feld, a really great Stefan Feld game. Kevin: I've looked at that so many times. Daniel: There are Kevin: I don't Daniel: three, Kevin: have any Felds. Daniel: yeah, you're good. Kristen, my wife, one. One of our top favorites is Castle of Burgundy. It's a great, great game. Kevin: Oh. Daniel: But anyway, there are, you know, in that game, your population has three needs and you have to meet these needs or else you get punished. They are bread, food, religion and games, right? That you have to, you have, and it very much that it's a game mechanism that replicates this view that games are useful. only for helping the population let off steam and thereby allowing them to return to the system to be helpful cogs in the machine. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: They are a means to an end. But Moltmann says that's not... then Moltmann makes this interesting shift and he says, you know, Even thinking that games are important for allowing us to release steam is better than thinking games are unimportant at all. But he says they're more than that. He said they're important for more than that. And then he makes the shift that you were just talking about that, that Bernard Suits makes in the grasshopper, which we've talked about in earlier episodes. If listeners want to go back and look Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: for those Kevin: yeah. Daniel: episodes, um, Kevin: Book Club, Daniel: book club, Kevin: part one. Daniel: um, where he says, as Bernard Suits says, you're in a moment says in his own way. Games are not at their best. At their best, games are not means to an end. They are meant to be the end, right? That we don't play games to... Empowers to return to the system and be more productive. We play games because that's the meaning of life, right? That's what that's what that's why we're created. That's why we're here is to Kevin: That's Daniel: Rejoice Kevin: so good. Daniel: and delight in life and in each other and in God And he said so that's what he says. He says that games at their best. Oh, oh, I love this do Kevin: Oh, Daniel: you mind if Kevin: you're Daniel: I Kevin: connected, oh. Daniel: Okay, so a couple things, a couple things. One, he says real revolution, real reformation, real changing society will not begin by changing how we work, but by changing how we play. And that's how real change in the world happens, by changing how we play. And what he says then is that games at their best allow us to envision a better future. That Kevin: Are you talking Daniel: game. Kevin: Moltmont or Suits here? Daniel: Moltmann, I'm sorry. Kevin: Moltmont, Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: yeah. Daniel: Moltmann says that games that are about the past or present are, and I don't mean thematically, but like basically what they help us to process, you know, kind of like that, are games in service to the system, right, in service to the society. They're the steam valves. But games at their most purest form, what they were tending to be, are games about the future. So the best games, the reason games are to help us envision a better future. And I Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: love that. Kevin: And I asked, is that Moltmann or Suetz? Because Suetz is getting at that as well, that Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: in the Daniel: yeah. Kevin: utopia or in the future, that these are all the ideas of anticipation. So when Daniel: Yes. Kevin: we play a game, we're anticipating a future reality, which is also a very Christian theme in terms of the Last Supper, the Lord's Supper, Holy Communion, Eucharist, you know, different names, but the idea that that's an anticipation. So when we do this, we're anticipating this future where this is fully realized. Daniel: Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss Kevin: And so there's a bit, so we're at a table as well, and Daniel: Yes! Kevin: that works for games, that we are liberated beings of creation, and we should be acting more like it, which means we should be playing. And so yeah, that's really, there's your sacramental bit, right? Like when you play a game, you're sort of, you're becoming the grasshopper, which is Daniel: Yes, Kevin: being this Daniel: yes. Kevin: redeemed creature, yeah. Daniel: And listen Kevin: Oh. Daniel: to the language of Holy Communion, the Lord, Supper, Eucharist, this tradition in the Christian tradition. You're right, it happens at a table, right? Bring people together. And what does Jesus say? Jesus says, well, this bit represents this, right? Kevin: Right. Daniel: And this bit represents that. Kevin: Oh wait! Oh my gosh! I never thought about that! Daniel: It's Kevin: Oh my gosh! Daniel: like Kevin: I never Daniel: this sacred Kevin: thought about Daniel: Holy Kevin: that! Daniel: game, right? Whereas we would say, this meatball represents this worker. He's saying, well, this bread, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: represents my body, right? Kevin: Now there Daniel: And this... Kevin: are some Christian debates about whether it Daniel: Yeah, whether actually, go ahead, Kevin: is Daniel: go ahead. Kevin: a symbol or it really is, but even if you say it really has become Christ's body, as Catholic teaching would say, it still has this weird double thing of it still looks and tastes like bread, but it also has this deeper thing. Daniel: Right, Kevin: So you Daniel: right. Kevin: still can make the argument that it is kind of like a meeple in the sense that it's Daniel: It's Kevin: still Daniel: an Kevin: a Daniel: abstraction. Kevin: little piece, it's still a little wafer of bread. Daniel: Yeah. It's an abstraction. Kevin: the senses. It still tastes like bread. The outer bit of it doesn't become Christ's Daniel: Right, Kevin: body. Daniel: right. To our senses, Kevin: I never Daniel: it's an Kevin: thought Daniel: abstraction Kevin: of that. Daniel: of a larger reality, which is ultimately what we see in games too. They're an abstraction Kevin: Oh my gosh, Daniel: of reality. Kevin: we're gonna have to do Borgam Faith the Book. Daniel: We gotta do Kevin: That's Daniel: it! Kevin: the last bit of it. Daniel: So that's the last Kevin: And Daniel: chapter. Kevin: then we could go on an archaeological dig Daniel: Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Kevin: to ancient, or to Israel now, Palestine, and do an ancient dig, and not only will I find the wizard that turns me into Shazam, but we'll also find an earlier copy of the Gospel of Mark. which the bit has left out where there were dice at the last supper. And Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: we, you know. Daniel: I like it. I like it Kevin: Then we Daniel: a little. Kevin: become Lord Emperors and Daniel turns into a giant worm. This is, I'm riffing on Dune. He becomes a God Emperor. And I'm just sort of chilling in a cave. So. Daniel: I, Kevin: With air conditioning, it has air conditioning, Daniel: it Kevin: air Daniel: has Kevin: conditioned Daniel: to have air Kevin: cave. Daniel: conditioning. Yeah. Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: I, Kevin: Geothermal. Daniel: I would say, I think we need to find a grant funding for this dig and we'll, uh, Kevin: I Daniel: we'll Kevin: don't Daniel: do Kevin: think Daniel: it. Kevin: any of that's unrealistic. Daniel: No, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: no, Kevin: Gospel Daniel: we could, we Kevin: of Mark, Daniel: could. Kevin: Book or Chapter 14, missing verse 5a. Daniel: Yeah. I Kevin: The Daniel: like Kevin: dice. Daniel: it. I like it. And ancient meeples. Kevin: It should be. Daniel: made out of sheep and a couple bone no that's the city should have a half buckles are what i'm talking about anymore that's Kevin: You know, I had to look that up when they call it that, it's really the ankle bone. Daniel: Oh, okay. Kevin: It's the bit from the ankle because I guess it's naturally a polygon Daniel: Really? Kevin: Including even the human ankle so they sometimes called a knuckle bone, but it's really the ankle. I don't know Daniel: Wow. Kevin: This is biology is, you know. Daniel: We're just fumbling in the dark. Kevin: They're always coming up with stuff with exceptions and misnaming things, so Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: I don't trust them at all. Daniel: yeah. So Kevin, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: if Kevin: Daniel. Daniel: Montmont is right, that games are an anticipation of the future and help us to envision a better future. Where have you and I experienced that individually or together, but, but can you, can we, can you or I, can we reflect on experiences we've had? We're playing a game. Maybe give us a glimpse of a better future. or do we know of experiences like that, whether we've personally had it or not? Kevin: Yeah, yeah, I mean Daniel: I don't want to put you on Kevin: These Daniel: the spot. Kevin: are going to feel generic But one is when you see somebody it could be yourself or someone else Really do well at a game and they've grown and gotten better. I think that is really exciting Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: It's personal growth right you're like I all of a sudden they have mastered the game. So I think that's the end to an anticipation of just Daniel: Yeah, personal growth. Kevin: Obstacle and success so that Daniel: Yes. Kevin: but then Probably why we all play games is just that magical esprit de corps when everyone's invested in a game Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: and it's immensely fun and While you've got to want to win in some ways. That's not the point anymore Daniel: Right, Kevin: Like you're almost Daniel: right. Kevin: curious to see who wins the game and you want to win but You're not going to get angry and flip the table. You're just so invested in it. You just really want to know how it comes out. It's almost like in some games where you have the reveal, the Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: final bit of, well, let's see who had the most points. Daniel: We've Kevin: That's Daniel: abandoned Kevin: a magical Daniel: our Kevin: moment. Daniel: desire to put our own personal win as the ultimate measure Kevin: Yes. Daniel: of, Kevin: But you've Daniel: which... Kevin: created, you've created this thing, like you've been on this journey, you've worked hard, and it's just this match, and you're not thinking about tomorrow or dinner or whatever. At that moment, you're, you know, what happens next? Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: And you can get that in a movie, but it's not real life. It's not, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: you know, right? You can talk about it later, like, wasn't that a great part in this movie? And you're all together, but you weren't really together at a game Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: table. You built it yourself. It's like building a house. Daniel: And isn't Kevin: And you're Daniel: that Kevin: like, Daniel: a great Kevin: what Daniel: future Kevin: happened next? Daniel: to envision? Kevin: I love that. Yeah. Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: And then Daniel: yeah, Kevin: you're like, Daniel: we're, Kevin: yay, Daniel: yeah, Kevin: Elliot won! Or like, that was a good win and everyone's sort of excited. You're like John the Baptist. Yay! Daniel: we're personal Kevin: Like, there's Daniel: win. Kevin: someone greater than I. Daniel: That's right, that's right. Kevin: What about you? Daniel: I love that. That's so good. The sense that it envisions a future where personal victory isn't the ultimate measure of Kevin: But you Daniel: whether... Kevin: still but there is some of it. Yeah, you do want to win Daniel: Sure, Kevin: because otherwise Daniel: sure. Kevin: it's not a game So there's a little bit of investment Daniel: But it's Kevin: But Daniel: not the Kevin: you Daniel: ultimate Kevin: can Daniel: measure Kevin: also be Daniel: of... Kevin: like, you know what it I lost it's a game who cares. Daniel: Exactly. Kevin: Let's go for pizza Daniel: Because, you know, Kevin: That's Daniel: I mean, truthfully, a lot of suffering is created in the world today by the attitude that I must win at all costs, you know, no matter what, Kevin: Yes, Daniel: I'm going to win. Kevin: yes. Daniel: And that creates suffering. Kevin: And and recent playthrough and i've shared this with you outside of this moment, but um playing john company second edition My favorite game of all time right now Daniel: Wow! Kevin: Even beating out root and col worley. I hate you. You're so great Daniel: That's Kevin: But Daniel: high praise! Kevin: playing john company second edition one of my kids attempted to bankrupt the company by taking on all this debt, but against his plans we ended up doing really well and he couldn't bankrupt the company. He took out so much debt but it ended up doing really well like we were just oozing money out of every pore. Daniel: That's so, that's great, Kevin: So even Daniel: that's Kevin: his Daniel: great. Kevin: goal like I'm gonna bankrupt the company when the game, the game itself defeated that and it just became hilarious because he told Daniel: That's... Kevin: us like I'm gonna try to bankrupt it and he couldn't. Daniel: That's so great. That's so great. That's a nice, the anticipated future too, where even to our best efforts, things Kevin: Yes! Daniel: work out well. Yeah, despite our best efforts. Kevin: Your goal was thwarted for a transformed goal of this moment of hilarity, which, Daniel: That's Kevin: well, Daniel: awesome. Kevin: we just made 50 pounds. Daniel: That's awesome. Kevin: Yeah, that Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: was a great moment. Daniel: You know, my main ones are, again, there's nothing groundbreaking. Things we've talked about before, but I have listeners of this podcast have heard me say multiple times before that. that the reason I fell in love with the spiritual benefits of gaming was, and became intrigued by it, was this initial observation that I've seen in all of our church board game groups, and both of the church board game groups that I've involved in, just how it brings together such a diversity of people, you know, just that. Kevin: Mmm. Daniel: And I've said this again and again, and I apologize for those who weren't here to say before, but you know, but senior citizens and college students, every age in between, Republicans, Democrats, singles, married, gay, straight, different racial ethnic backgrounds, and different parts of humanity that almost would never get together in any other circumstance. But by golly, we get around the game table together and we love each other on the game table. And I think that's an anticipation of a preferred future. That's an anticipation of how we could be. The other thing that reminds me of in terms of anticipated preferred future, Momon talks about being free from fear, how play and games free us from fear. If I'm being honest, I live a lot of my life Out of fear, I'm trying to get better. Kevin: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel: I'm trying to get better at that, but I'm, you know, there are different parts of times in my life where I'm afraid of various things. He got me thinking about Kevin: You're Daniel: this. Kevin: not alone. Daniel: Well, thanks. I can't remember, I can't remember a moment where I am simultaneously playing a game and am afraid of life, you know? Kevin: Wow. Daniel: And that, and I don't think I would have realized that without Maltmann, but he's right. In those moments. it does give me a glimpse of a better future where I'm not afraid of life, you know, where I just, I can't remember simultaneously playing a game and still obsessing, and at the same time, obsessing over the fears of life that I'd obsess about outside of games. And I thought that was, and anyway, I got that from Kevin: Freedom Daniel: Ultimom too. Kevin: to not be afraid. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: It's almost like a purgation or a substitution, right? Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: So you're afraid you might lose the game or not play well, but of course that is just a game. Like if you can keep that Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: paradox Daniel: yeah. Kevin: in your head, that becomes a substitution for the real fears. Daniel: Right. Kevin: And it helps. Then you get a chance to say, hey, I wasn't afraid in real life. And that felt pretty good. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, Kevin: Huh, Daniel: boy, Kevin: that's awesome, wow. Daniel: that's the first 14 pages of Jürgen Moltmann's Theology Kevin: You're the Daniel: of Kevin: best Daniel: Play. Kevin: man. Wow, Daniel: Oh, you Kevin: that was Daniel: are. Kevin: awesome. I learned so much. Daniel: Well, ditto, back Kevin: I'm going Daniel: at Kevin: to take Daniel: you. Kevin: notes Daniel: Thank you. Kevin: on our notes. Daniel: Well, you got together some great notes and I love how you distilled these 14 pages down to two major themes. That was very helpful Kevin: Well, Daniel: for Kevin: a Daniel: organizing Kevin: lot of those Daniel: our Kevin: notes Daniel: conversation. Kevin: were yours. I had some notes and I did try to do a framework, but a lot of this... I've read this so many times and struggled it and Daniel: I Kevin: I'm Daniel: have Kevin: like, Daniel: two, I Kevin: oh, Daniel: have two. Kevin: Daniel's picked up on this thing and that's exactly what he is saying, because Daniel: Well... Kevin: he has to say it in a backwards way. Moltmann does and Daniel turns it around. Daniel: No, well you're Kevin: Old Daniel: very... Kevin: Moltmann, Daniel: you're kind. Kevin: Ping Pong Moltmann with his cart... in front of the horse and Daniel's like, no, sir. we put the cart after the horse. Oh, Daniel: You're Kevin: now it makes sense, yes. Daniel: very gracious and Kevin: Anyway, Daniel: kind. Thank you. Kevin: thanks Daniel: Thanks Kevin: to everybody. Daniel: everybody. Kevin: Great episode and check us out. We are on YouTube and we are on audio platforms. Subscribe, like us, et cetera, et cetera. And remember the contest and remember our newsletter. Daniel: newsletter. Kevin: Newsletter. Daniel: Yeah, thanks so much everybody for listening. We love you. You're an important part of our Board Game Faith family. You rock. And we are so grateful that you have included us as a part of your day. And we hope the rest of your Kevin: That's Daniel: day Kevin: right. Daniel: is great. Kevin: Daniel, clap technology disengaged. Bye. Daniel: Bye.