Kevin: What is the world that we live in? Some people have said it's like a great machine or it is a big watch that has been set by a watchmaker. But what if the world is actually a game? This week on Board Game Faith, the bi-weekly podcast on the intersection of religion, spirituality, and board games. button. I'll just replace this. Is that okay or should I do it again? What do you think? Daniel: It sounded good to me. I like Kevin: You Daniel: it. Kevin: think? Daniel: Yeah. I like how we keep dancing even after the... No, no. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do Kevin: I'm not gonna cut this part out. I'm not gonna cut this, whop whop. Not gonna cut this part out. I'm putting, I'm putting on my dancing glasses. I'm putting on. So it's getting hot in here. I need a custard beer I don't know Daniel: I like how we both just kind of kept dancing even after the music was done. Kevin: Well, to be honest, I wanted to ask about the intro and then you started dancing and I reminded, you reminded me that I needed to dance. Daniel: Oh, okay. Okay. Kevin: So Daniel: I guess Kevin: I Daniel: that Kevin: started Daniel: is kind Kevin: working. Daniel: of... Kevin: I was working mode. Daniel: That's Kevin: So I appreciate Daniel: that's fine. Kevin: you got me. No, it's not. Not in a board game. Daniel: We've kind of gotten in the habit of dancing, haven't we, to our theme song every week? Kevin: We have. That's Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: the new clap. Daniel: yeah. It's the new clap. And you know, it doesn't require like secret gnosis, like secret inside knowledge, just because everyone can dance, right? To, I Kevin: Everyone can Daniel: mean, Kevin: dance. Daniel: to, like, I just, I mean, I'm just kind of moving my hands a little bit. That's about the most I can do for dancing, but. Kevin: Pretty much. Daniel: Our dear listeners, I hope wherever you are, you're. You're welcome to dance to the theme song too. Speaking of which, we should probably say, hello and welcome, dear listeners. We're so glad to have you joining us today. Kevin: Hello, Daniel: My name is Daniel Hilty. Kevin: my name is Kevin Taylor, and we are talking this week about Jürgen Moltmann, and we... this is part two, so we did a prior episode about his theology of play, and we got up through about page 14, is that right? Daniel: I think so. It is a wonderful and thick with meaning dense book. And so, yeah, just the first 14 pages took quite a while to talk about last time. Kevin: Yeah, he's obviously well-read and is moving through lots of different ideas, and some of them are a little dated at this point, so you have to do a little work to figure out who he's arguing with and what kind of fights he's trying to pick. So yeah, that's what's given us a lot of great material and provokes some thoughts. Is that fair to say? Daniel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And Kevin, it occurs to me, we didn't talk about this beforehand, but for listeners who might be tuning in to this episode before hearing the first episode about Jurgen Moltmann, might be helpful just to talk a little bit about who is this guy? Jurgen Moltmann, Kevin: Okay. Daniel: right? Yeah. Kevin: Hey Daniel, Daniel: So yeah, yeah. Kevin: who Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: is this Daniel: Kevin. Kevin: guy? Hey, who is, who's that cat? Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Jurgen Moltmann. is a very prominent Christian theologian, a Protestant Christian theologian out of Germany of the 20th century and the 21st century as well. We mentioned the last episode that I think we were both, we didn't realize that he was still alive and it's and he's I think he's well into his 90s but still alive and I think most people would agree at least here in the Western one of the most prominent and well-known living theologians in the Christian tradition today. Kevin: He's a Protestant, right? He is... Daniel: Yep. Kevin: It's Lutheran, I guess we would say, right? Daniel: I think that's probably right. Yeah, yeah. Kevin: Okay. Daniel: What we maybe could call the evangelical church in Germany. Kevin: Right. Daniel: But yeah, yeah. And he's written far and wide on all sorts of theological topics. But one of his writings that is especially relevant to this podcast, but also especially hard to find, is a little book, a little... almost kind of extended manuscript titled Theology Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: of Play, Theology of Play. Kevin: Right. Daniel: And so we're going through this on multiple episodes. Go ahead. Kevin: Yeah, yeah, so if you are interested in reading this, it's not in print anymore, but if you go to a library, especially university, or there might be a seminary or some kind of religious institution, or even a church might have this on a bookshelf. It's the kind of thing that probably got printed and had a print run and was distributed and just never gained traction, Daniel: time. Kevin: but it's not in the public domain yet. So you're not Daniel: No. Kevin: able to just read it for free as a PDF unless it's some dark part of the dark web. Daniel: Right, which Kevin: Which Daniel: we don't Kevin: has Daniel: necessarily Kevin: Daniel's credit Daniel: recommend. Kevin: card is, yeah, Daniel's still trying to get his MX account closed. Thank you. Thank you, hackers. Daniel: And yet it's a very well-known book. I was surprised. Kevin: Is it? I'd Daniel: Well, Kevin: never heard of it. Daniel: more than I thought, yeah, at the last, in the last episode, we talked about this retreat that I got to be a part of out in Colorado about spirituality and play. And I, and one of the participants there said, oh yeah, I'm still trying to find a copy of Jürgen Moltmann's theology Kevin: funny. Daniel: of play. And then another participant who was with an earshot. She said, yes, I've been trying to find Jürgen Moltmann's theology of play. And so at least in the right circles, in certain circles, it's very, it's, uh, it's almost kind of like the Holy grail of, uh, of theological treatises on, uh, on the theology of play that. And, um, uh, Mr. Bean's big happy playtime book. Kevin: Mm-hmm Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: and Daniel's memoirs volume one a softly moving wind Which he doesn't explain the title till the very end I was Daniel: You have Kevin: it Daniel: to slog through the first 500 pages and then you Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: get to Kevin: yeah Daniel: a softly Kevin: Softly moving wind Daniel: through my head. That's right, just echoing through Kevin: Oh Daniel: the great empty chasms of my head. Kevin: Right. Daniel: So anyway, Kevin: So this. Daniel: so yeah, so that's theology of play and that's Jürgen Moltmann in a nutshell. Kevin: And this is the most significant theologian that's written on play that I know of, and readers if you know, or listeners if you know of someone else, I'm sure others mentioned it in passing at places, but this is the most focused, notable work. There have been some books come out recently about history of games or philosophy of games, and so game theory has been of interest, but I don't know of a theologian that's explored it. Now play was popular. among the German philosophers and romantic period, the thinkers back in the Daniel: Right. Kevin: 19th century, Schiller and others, but Daniel: Yep. Kevin: they are thinking more of his play and even I think Moltmann's thinking more of childlike play and joy and wonder. I don't know if they're speaking of organized gaming. That's Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: one question I have of this book, Daniel: Right, Kevin: right? Daniel: right, Kevin: Like is Daniel: it's... Kevin: he thinking about chess? Has he played Monopoly at this point? Probably. This book Daniel: It's Kevin: was Daniel: been around Kevin: 73? Daniel: for a long time. Kevin: Yeah. But he doesn't seem to ever reference an actual game, kind of. Maybe he's just thinking of Duck Goose type childlike games. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. There's, yeah, you're right. There's, Schiller has this great quote about, we're never more human than we are when we play. And like you said, you kind of find these little snippets of statements about play and the value of play. I remember there's a little bit, it's something in the writings of Dietrich Bonhoeffer too, but it seems like he is by far the most famous, as you said, theologian who. who has an extended treatment on the subject. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: He's not just messing, mentioning it in passing. He is kind of, yeah, he's... Which maybe to get into the subject, if that's okay with you, are you okay if we dive in, Kevin? Is that, Kevin: I don't know. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: I'll find out. Daniel: Okay, okay. Kevin: If Daniel: We got Kevin: I'm not, Daniel: it. Kevin: I'm gonna blink like this. Daniel: Okay, I will look for your blinking. That was a very subtle. It was Kevin: Was Daniel: very Kevin: it? Daniel: subtle. For Kevin: Was Daniel: those Kevin: it different? Daniel: of you who are who are who are listening and not watching the video. Kevin just did the most the most amazingly subtle blink. It was a Kevin: Right. It's Daniel: that Kevin: very Daniel: was Kevin: different blink. Daniel: yeah. Yeah. Okay. Kevin: But Daniel: Speaking Kevin: thank you. Daniel: of Schiller, I think Schiller's discussion of the value of play is part of a larger work on aesthetics, which I have Kevin: Okay. Daniel: never read, but I've heard about but that's a theme. that Montmont talks about that early on in this work, he, he contrasts the world of what he says is theology and ethics with what he calls the world of faith and aesthetics, right? So theology, systematic thinking about God, ethics, system of thinking about how we should live our lives versus faith, which is a lot harder to define, maybe like trust in the divine. and then aesthetics, kind of thinking about beauty and things like that. And Moltmann seems to be pretty down on the world of theology and ethics and a pretty big proponent of the world of faith and aesthetics. And Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I just, I thought that was really interesting. And I'm not quite sure what to do with that, to wrap my head around that. Do you have a sense, Kevin, of why is this so important for Moltmann to distinguish between theology and faith? ethics and aesthetics and why is he down on the first and proponent of the second? Kevin: Yeah. I'm no Maltman expert, but my guess of what's going on is that lingering issue of how is religion relevant in modern times and theology, because we've got science, we have hospitals, we have doctors. In general, people talk about miracles, but we don't expect miracles like the ancient world did. We don't experience them. We don't... We don't talk about demon possession unless it's in a movie. So if you read your New Testament, Jesus is casting out demons, and so it's a very different world than the world we live in. And Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: with those changes, religion and theology, what's its role in the world? And one answer Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: is ethics, that religion Daniel: Okay. Kevin: and ethics, right, so the religious brings about the ethical. and that's a way to argue for the place of religion, that religion makes people more ethical, it bonds them together, it gives them a sense of purpose and why you should be ethical. So that's one place for religion, but Moltmann wants it to be bigger than that. So I think in the larger issue, it's a question of identity of why be religious and what's the place of religious thinking. meaning theology. Is it just to have better ethics? Is it to try to go back to the ancient world of demon possession, you know, the Pope's exorcist? That's that movie on Netflix that I haven't Daniel: I've heard Kevin: seen Daniel: about Kevin: yet. Daniel: it, yeah. Kevin: Yeah. In fact, if you see the first exorcist, which is terrifying, that's one of the themes of that movie is, as I see it, that science can't defeat real Daniel: Interesting. Kevin: it takes a religious. So you could read, you could see that movie or read that book as an argument of trying to say there's a place for religion which is the reality of evil. I think Stephen King personally has said things like that, that because of his belief in how evil the world can be, there must be a God, Daniel: Interesting, Kevin: right? So that's Daniel: interesting. Kevin: one possibility of how religion exists in the modern world. Is it about ethics? Is it about good and evil? Or is it about creation and beauty and play and that's where Moltmann is settling as that third option. Daniel: Interesting. That's Kevin: What do you Daniel: such Kevin: think? Daniel: a good Kevin: What Daniel: analysis. Kevin: are your thoughts? Daniel: I love that, Kevin. No, thank you. I mean, my thoughts Kevin: Thanks Daniel: are just going off of yours because I, you really helped to clarify that for me. Yeah. So it's almost as if maybe multnom's in this world where, which is largely our world today too, where people say, you know, what's the, what's the point of religion, right? What, I mean, we look at, we look at the Bible or whatever holy text we may be using based on whatever our our faith tradition or religion may be. And we say, oh, this is all this superstitious, supernatural stuff, right? Kevin: Right. Daniel: That really relates to the real world anymore. And so one response to the church or the community of faith is to say, well, OK, it's not really about the supernatural stuff. It's about ethics. It's about Kevin: Yes. Daniel: trying to decide how do you live your life. And so it's a way of trying to sell faith to the world, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: right? Sell religion to the world. That's so interesting. And what it reminds me of. is to be relevant, what you said. What that reminds me of is this really, one of the most haunting things I've read is this passage in a book called In the Name of Jesus by Henry Nowan. It's a very tiny book on Christian leadership. And by the way, this isn't just an exclusively Christian show. whatever your religious tradition or lack of religious tradition, you are welcome here. And we're glad that you're here. That just happens to be our tradition. Um, but, um, there's this book on Christian leadership called, uh, in the name of Jesus by Henry now, and it's very, very tiny. I really like it. I recommend it for, uh, Kevin: Hmm, Daniel: kind Kevin: I don't Daniel: of Kevin: know Daniel: spiritual, Kevin: that one. Daniel: spiritual leadership. Yeah. Um, but he says that one of the greatest temptations of for a Christian leader, we might say in this context, a leader of faith or spiritual tradition, one of the greatest temptations is the temptation to be relevant. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: And that has haunted me because on the one hand, it's like, well, yeah, of course, you know, we want the world to think that religious matters are relevant and matters of faith are relevant. But on the other hand, But on the other hand, maybe there's some danger to that too. You know, and that's, I guess what I hear Maltman saying here, that when we, when we try to sell faith to the world, maybe we, we get into some dangerous territory and we make it less than, than what it is. How I, I think maybe how I've come to have some more of a sense of understanding with what maybe now and meant by that is that. It's when we feel like we always have to be needed or when we feel like we want, when we're trying to nurture a sense of dependence upon. us, right, ourselves Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: in the world, you know, to say, well, clearly you need this or that or you need. And anyway, I wonder if that's kind of the danger of that temptation of relevance, which I hear at Moltman addressing as well. Anyway, I don't know. Kevin: Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. That's a great quote, the danger of relevance. That's a real temptation. On a certain extreme, you have to be relevant. You can't have your—or it's very difficult to have your church service in a language people don't speak, for example. Daniel: Right. Kevin: So on a certain level, you've got to be relevant. People expect air conditioning. They expect to have a bulletin or have some sense of— what's going to happen in the church service or use a screen or something. So there's a certain level of, we have to be relevant in order to be heard, Daniel: Exactly. Kevin: but there is a point where you go too far and I think that one of the dangers is if religion is only about ethics, well then just be ethical, why be religious? Daniel: right. Kevin: Right? So at a certain point if you're too relevant, there's nothing distinguishing about you and then people just shortcut you anyway. Or if you want to look and act like a local civic club, well then they're just going to join the local civic club or so there's got to be something distinctive about religion. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: And while Moltmann, I don't know that he's saying directly here that this is what will save religion, but I guess he's saying this is a deep component of religious expression, is an understanding of play. Is that fair? Because he's going to talk about God's creation as an act of play, that where we're fully human and more participating in God's life is when we engage in play. And if we aren't connected to those things, then we fall into the trap of working hard to play hard, which means we just kind of work hard. Daniel: Right. Finding our Kevin: And Daniel: value Kevin: he's resist- Daniel: then in work and achievement, Kevin: Right? Daniel: which Kevin: And even play Daniel: just, Kevin: becomes an act of work, which is Daniel: right. Kevin: a danger. Daniel: Right. Yeah. Kevin: Because you're really playing just so you can work better on Monday. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: So he's really trying to, to avoid that. So yeah, yeah. He's saying this is a category that religion is overlooked is, is thinking about beauty and what is unnecessary. Daniel: Okay. Kevin: but it's superfluous. Daniel: So that seems to be a good Kevin: Yes. Daniel: transition to this next section. So yeah, so lead us through Kevin, what is what is what I'm talking about here in these first few pages of 15 through 25 pages 15 through 25. Kevin: Yeah, it's complicated, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: but I read it as that God is a God who creates and creates freely, and so this is a deep thought in, I guess, all Abrahamic religions, that God created the world out of nothing. So God freely chose to make a world that God didn't need to make. Like, the world doesn't have to be here, and God didn't need the world. and yet God chose to create it anyway. Well, how do we understand that? It's not an act of work, because if it was, it'd be like, oh, I've got to punch a clock and I've got to make some daggone birds Daniel: Why Kevin: and Daniel: do Kevin: they meet, Daniel: I have to make the world? Kevin: I have to be, I exactly, oh, I'm so tired of making this world. The fjords are just getting on my nerves. The fjords in Sweden, no, Finland? Daniel: Norway? Norway. Kevin: Norway? Fjords. Daniel: There probably, maybe some, we've Kevin: I don't Daniel: got Kevin: even know Daniel: some... Kevin: how to say the word and I'm God. Fjords, there's so many fjords, getting on my nerves. So yeah, Daniel: There are many fjords. Kevin: so little time. Oh wait, I'm God, it's fine. I do have time, Daniel: Hehehehe Kevin: but it's boring. So the scriptures do not refer to God in that way of God feeling like God had to. It's not an act of work. So what is it? And really interesting way to read it is it's an act of play. that God freely creates the world and makes it as a sense of joy. And we have not only that in Genesis 1 and 2, but then in Proverbs 8 describing wisdom, which is the strange personification in the book of Proverbs, Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: says, I was beside God like a master worker and I was daily his delight. This is wisdom speaking. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: playing before him always. And the word there really is playing, Daniel: It's Kevin: because Daniel: awesome. Kevin: I did a little research the Hebrew word. It gets translated sometimes in some translations as rejoicing, Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: because the translators probably thought playing sounded wrong Daniel: Hmm Kevin: in this context, but the word there, at least in the normal dictionaries, French and Hebrews, play. Daniel: That's so interesting. Kevin: I thought Daniel: Thanks Kevin: that was Daniel: for doing Kevin: really Daniel: that Kevin: interesting Daniel: research. Kevin: too, yeah, their discomfort Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: with that. Daniel: So yeah, I want, yeah, like the translator was thought, I mean, I'm just kind of hypothesizing, but maybe that the idea of rejoicing in God's presence is a little bit more suitable to Kevin: It's more churchy, right? Daniel: the divine Kevin: It's more appropriate Daniel: presence Kevin: for the... Daniel: than playing. Yeah, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: yeah. Kevin: we don't play a church. Daniel: No, Kevin: We're very Daniel: no. Kevin: serious. Daniel: It's terribly serious, which he gets into seriousness too in Kevin: Yes. Daniel: a little bit. I love, yeah, so, and what struck me about that section that you just summarized so well for us, Kevin, is the similarities with a previous book that we've considered on this podcast, The Grasshopper by Bernard Suits, where it also talks about the unnecessary, is that a word? Unnecessariness, Kevin: Just Daniel: unnecessary. Kevin: the un necessities. Daniel: The, Kevin: Just Daniel: the, Kevin: necessities. Daniel: little un necessities. Yeah. Kevin: Yeah Daniel: Call me Baloo. But because he also suits says that the essence of play is, you know, the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles. We need that on a t-shirt. We talk about that so much. Kevin: And you're right. I forgot that is the same word and it's voluntary, which means it's unnecessary You don't have to do it. You choose to do it and then it's unnecessary obstacles. It's double unnecessary Daniel: Right, right, right. Which is why I think Multman says that creation is God's play, right? Because like you just said, Multman says it wasn't necessary for God to make the world, right? This was a, it was not necessary and yet God did it, right? And not out of a sense, as you said, of work, of obligation. He also says it wasn't out of a sense of like God needing to do it for self fulfillment, right? You know, like this was, Kevin: Right. Daniel: oh, I need a purpose in life and want to make creation, you know, because otherwise Kevin: Right. Daniel: I'm just God and I need somebody. It was just purely out of delight and joy and goodwill. Right. You know, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: and pleasure and. Kevin: the Council of God says I need to get a job so I'm gonna make something because they're judging me in the Council of Gods, Daniel: God, Kevin: which would Daniel: why Kevin: mean Daniel: don't Kevin: that Daniel: you? Kevin: God's not God because there's a council. Yeah, God is not... God doesn't work for anybody. Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: It's just Daniel: right. Kevin: a Daniel: And Kevin: lovely notion. Daniel: yeah, yeah. So it's very, and so I, which some moment says that creation is God's play, right? It's creation is God's out of sheer delight, desire to overcome an unnecessary obstacle, right? Voluntarily overcome an unnecessary obstacle, but. Moltmann adds something to that, to Suet's definition, which I thought Kevin: Ooh. Daniel: was interesting. And it's, correct me if maybe you read it differently. And I don't think Moltmann came up with it. I think he's quoting Huizinga here, the Dutch philosopher who wrote this book called Homo Ludens. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: But I think he says that play and creation is both unnecessary and meaningful. Kevin: Yes. Daniel: And I thought, so he adds this element of meaning that is not in suit's definition, right? Unless you see the overcoming obstacles part as meaning, but he adds this element of meaning that play and creation are both unnecessary and meaningful. Kevin: And how would you define that meaningful? What is meaningful about Daniel: You Kevin: it? Daniel: know, I was thinking about that. Yeah. Um, and I'm not sure I've got a good definition, but, but I was thinking like, well, is that true? Right. And so I was thinking like, so I kind of see all this through the lens of playing games, right, playing board games, you know, like, and so I asked myself, well, do I find that meaningful? Right. Do I find it meaningful to sit down and play? Caverna or, you know, brass Birmingham or just one or whatever. And at first it was like, well, no, it's not meaningful. That's why we do it. But then I realized, I think I'm wrong. It is meaningful, right? And that it is why I do it. Um, because, because then if it wasn't meaningful, I wouldn't be doing it. I don't think. Kevin: Ooh, Daniel: And I, Kevin: right, Daniel: and I, Kevin: right. Daniel: I don't, I don't mean that as Kevin: You're Daniel: a, Kevin: not getting paid to do it. Daniel: as a Kevin: You're Daniel: pat Kevin: not Daniel: on Kevin: being Daniel: my back. Kevin: told to do it. Yeah. Daniel: Right. We wouldn't, I mean, it's true for all of us. We wouldn't do it if we didn't find some meaning in it. And then that got me Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: thinking about Victor Frankel. Um, who wrote this book, you know, Man's Search for Meaning. Kevin: Okay, Daniel: And I don't Kevin: I'm just laughing that you're name dropping so many awesome Daniel: I Kevin: names. Daniel: don't mean to be I don't mean to be name dropping. I'm sorry. That Kevin: No, Daniel: got Kevin: you Daniel: me Kevin: have Daniel: thinking Kevin: to! You should, Daniel: about Kevin: you Daniel: Kevin Kevin: should own Daniel: Taylor. Kevin: it! It's just funny. Daniel: But but Victor Kevin: Thinking Daniel: Franco. Kevin: of Flavius Maximus and his comment in the third century. Who took Daniel: Um... Kevin: my screwdriver? Daniel: .. Kevin: Anyway, no, I'm sorry. I did Daniel: But no, Kevin: not, I just hijacked Daniel: Victor, Kevin: that. Daniel: no, Kevin: No, Daniel: that's a good Kevin: Victor Daniel: question. Kevin: Frankel. Daniel: Victor Frankl was, you know, in the, was in a Nazi concentration camp during World War II of Jewish descent. And, and he wrote this powerful book on his offering reflections on his experience in a, in a Nazi concentration camp called Man's Search for Meaning. Today we would say maybe, you know, humankind's search for meaning or something like that. Um, a little bit more inclusive language, but, um, but what he argues in there is that our, our primary drive is to find meaning in life. The primary drive of human beings is to find meaning. Even when you're in a concentration camp, you're trying to find meaning. And, and, and so if he's right, then of course we're trying to find meaning when we play games. You know, and so maybe, and so maybe Moltmann is right, that the essence of play is that it's unnecessary and it's meaningful. So you're saying, asking, yeah, so what does that mean for it to be meaningful? Um, what is the meaning of meaning? Hmm. Kevin: Yeah, I think on one level, and I'd have to read it more closely to guess what he's after, the meaning is partly just within the game that these things mean something in the game. So the dice become... the arbiters of how far you can move in monopoly, right? And so if you had those dice in the cup holder of your car, they don't mean anything, but in the middle of the game, they have meaning, because you're like, oh, I hope I get doubles, and this and that happens. So a certain bit, the meaning is constructed by the game. And I think that's where Suits would agree, and he's trying to build that as well, that the obstacles have a certain meaning, you know, that you... In golf, you can't just pick up the golf ball. You have to use the little stick. Right. So that has Daniel: Right. Kevin: meaning within the game, but outside the game, if you found a golf ball, you would not go get a stick. You would just pick it up. Like, Oh, golf ball. Right. So there's that level, but I think you're right too, that it also has meaning in the sense of it's helping us discover our identities as creatures that are meant not to work. but to enjoy a world that is beautiful Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: and to enjoy one another and to enjoy God as uh Moltmann cites from the famous Westminster Catechism which Daniel: Yeah? Kevin: is a statement of belief Westminster Catechism of 1647 the purpose of being human is to glorify God and enjoy God forever. And Moltmann connects that with play. Daniel: How do Kevin: So Daniel: you, Kevin: you're right, Daniel: how Kevin: I Daniel: do Kevin: think Daniel: you? Kevin: that the meaning ties into our identity. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: Which is why we like to play and it's why we interact with children with play and why adults like to play games. Daniel: How would you, may I ask, how would you kind of connect that Westminster confession with play? To delight in God and enjoy God forever. How do you see that connected with play? Kevin: I'd have to spin. I'm just guessing what Moltmann's after when he cites it, but I think he's saying that enjoyment He's connecting that with what God did when God created the world. God said it was good So Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: God enjoyed God did something that was not necessary. God only did it for its pleasure Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: and Games are something that are unnecessary. We only play games for pleasure Daniel: Right. Kevin: They don't achieve anything in this world So Daniel: Yes. Kevin: they're unneeded. That's the unnecessary bit. Daniel: And right, I remember there's somewhere in there where Moltmann says that play, and if we understand creation as God's play, then we could say creation as well. And maybe the intent of the heart of God, if that's not too bold to say, play shifts the focus away from achievement to being, right? That Kevin: Right. Daniel: the point ultimately of play and of creation is not achievement. But being, he talks about this Dutch biologist that I know that you, you notice as well, who talks about the, I think the demonstrative value of being that there's just, there's a, there's a, that there's a value in being that comes prior to anything we will or will not achieve in life. And because of that, then Moltmann has this great quote where he says, um, well, I'm paraphrasing, but he says, seeing, seeing the meaning of life only in terms of useful, of being useful, inevitably leads to a crisis, right? That Kevin: Right. Daniel: if we see the meaning of life in terms of being useful, that will inevitably lead to some sort of crisis of life. Um, and that really. that really struck home and I think that's really Kevin: did it. Daniel: wise. Yeah, yeah. Kevin: you know, unpack that a little or. Daniel: I'm not sure that I fully understand it myself. Um, I guess the first thing makes me think of was at this retreat last week. Um, somebody brought up the, um, I think in her phrase and her wording, kind of the sin of ableism, right? That this, the sin of thinking that really our value as a human being, our value as a person really is only in what we can achieve and what we can produce. And she says, well, what does that say about Um, uh, a person, um, who, for whatever reason comes to a place in life where that capacity to produce in the world's eyes becomes limited or, or ends, right? Um, um, are we saying that person that no longer has, has value, you know, and that's the, I mean, I just, I find that as a great, great. haunting question and I'm kind of embarrassed to admit this, but I'm just going to admit it because I want to be honest and vulnerable with you, Kevin, and with our listeners too. I've, you know, I had a season in my life where I just felt like... pretty pointless. And Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: you know, one of the things that got me out of that was this realization that I could be useful in different situations. And so on the one hand, if I'm being honest, that didn't bring me comfort. Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: And I hate to say that because I'm kind of, I'm contradicting this. this truth that I Kevin: That's Daniel: also Kevin: good. Daniel: believe Kevin: That's Daniel: in, that Kevin: a very Daniel: our value Kevin: interesting Daniel: is Kevin: point. Daniel: independent of our usefulness. Yeah, but if I'm being honest, I found comfort in that moment. And I don't like admitting that, but I guess I'm just trying to be honest. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that or? Kevin: No, I think that's a brilliant insight to be honest, if I'm being honest, that when I am feeling malaise or depressed or whatnot, getting something done is often a really great way to deal with that. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: As well as when I feel good about a day, it's because I can check off the things I've done. Daniel: Right. Kevin: So does that mean we've fallen for the trap of... Usefulness like it's so ingrained in us that it's just going to be hard to get out and that may be true But I would get fidgety if I just played games all the time like it sounds Daniel: Exactly, Kevin: great But I think Daniel: exactly. Kevin: I would also want to I'm, not sure I can do that Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: So it really Daniel: right. Kevin: does come down to a balance that I want to do something that impacts our world Usefully, I do want to be useful, but Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I also know that that needs to be balanced by games and enjoying just existing as you're saying, because at some point usefulness ends and then what do you do? Daniel: Right, right. I mean, we're doing a podcast on religion and board games because we think it's useful, right? I mean, it's kind of, Kevin: Ooh, Daniel: I mean, you Kevin: right. Daniel: know what I mean? Like, Kevin: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: it's almost like we need different categories, I almost feel like, I mean, kind of to differentiate. Like usefulness has a role, but its role is not giving us ultimate value. You know what I mean? Like it's Kevin: Right. Daniel: maybe that's the thing. Maybe there's, um, I don't know. I don't know. Kevin: But I think you're right. We do need, there is a primary need to be useful. That's like vocation. You're calling. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: But Daniel: It's a tough thing to figure out. Kevin: it's a tough thing to figure out. But if your whole life is your vocation, then that's where Moltmann says, then you're gonna get stuck. I mean, Daniel: Right. Kevin: you can't take your satisfaction from it. Yeah, you're right about the categories. And one thing I loved in the reading that I didn't know is that work, and I assume he's right here, work for the Romans in Latin was the word for it meant non-leisure. Daniel: That's so interesting. Kevin: Negos- Negosium? Daniel: That's so interesting, yeah. Kevin: Negotium, negotium. Daniel: Which gives us negotiate too, right? Kevin: I assume it's negotiate. So Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: those categories, it's what are you doing today? Well, I've got to do some non leisure. I've got to do non Daniel: Hmm Kevin: play. And then after, so that is what, that's one answer is to be grounded in play and existence and not be grounded in work. Daniel: it reverses the assumption, the modern assumption, Kevin: bright. Daniel: right? Where the modern assumption is the baseline is work and we take occasional breaks to play, right? But Kevin: Yes. Daniel: at least etymologically there, the baseline assumption is play and we occasionally would need to take breaks for that for work, yeah. Kevin: Yeah, like what if you met strangers and instead of asking well, what do you do? What's your work? What if you said? What do you like to play? What Daniel: Yeah! Kevin: do you do? And I guess we do kind of like what do you do for fun? What are your Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: hobbies and I've met a few people said why don't really have any and I'd kind of back away because Those are people that are Yeah Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: There's something in this ad and it's and I'm not sure yeah Daniel: At the retreat, there was a pastor who said that he was describing a time when she was doing a job interview, um, uh, as a worship leader at a church. And, uh, and she said one of the most profound moments of her life in that interview was when the pastor said, so what do you do for fun, right? That that was kind of, and to kind of what you're saying. I mean, what if that was, and she just said that the question was really kind of world shifting for her. You know, Kevin: Hmm. Daniel: it's like. Why does that even matter? And then she thought, oh, it does matter, doesn't it? You know, and kind of, yeah, yeah. Kevin: that Sabbath is supposed to be the first day of the week, which... think about... no wait hang on I'm getting confused. Daniel: Sabbath Kevin: It's the Daniel: is Kevin: last Daniel: the Kevin: day Daniel: last Kevin: of the Daniel: day Kevin: week. Daniel: of the week, right? But Kevin: Last day Daniel: we... Kevin: of the week for Jews and in the creation story Christians moved it to the first day of the week. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: And then it got collapsed into the weekend and I don't really know what it means right. It's just kind of a big mess. Daniel: Yeah, and then if you're... If you're a pastor, you just say it's, or, or if you work on the weekends, you just say it's, that's just whatever. Kevin: It's just whenever. Daniel: Which, uh, which I'm not sure is, is the spirit of the, of the, of the concept, but that's another topic, I guess, for another, we need to do an episode on Sabbath sometime. Kevin: We should. That would be Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: fun, because I have thoughts. Because, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: So, so moment talks about in this, did you want to explore your thoughts on Sabbath now? Kevin: No, Daniel: Okay, okay, Kevin: but they were Daniel: okay. Kevin: bouncing in my head. Daniel: Well. Kevin: I do think, now that I've said no, I have permission to say yes, I Daniel: Yes. Kevin: do think there's a weird bit that Sabbath and playing games can be a type of usefulness or productivity because you can become legalistic. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Maybe that's one way to think of legalism is work-based. So you kinda, you have to be useful, you have to follow, right? And so in board gaming today, which I don't know what my mom would make of it, but you are supposed to play the hot, we have the list of the hot games and you should have a copy of these games and know these games and play these games and you wanna get better at the games and it can be more work than play, ironically. Daniel: Right, right, yeah, yeah. Kevin: Like sports, you know, it started Daniel: Right, Kevin: out as Daniel: right. Kevin: kids throwing a ball in a hoop and now all of a sudden it's a billion dollar industry. Daniel: Yeah. You know, Kevin, you and I have been talking beforehand. I'm going through a time just for a variety of reasons. I'm a little bit busier at my work than I have sometimes been in the past or often been in the past, just kind of for a variety of reasons. And I have been, that's given me less time to play games. Kevin: Hmm Daniel: And I've been feeling guilty about it, right? I've been feeling Kevin: Right. Daniel: it kind of what you're saying. And that kind of misses the point. If I'm feeling guilty for not playing games, Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: That kind of misses the point. I miss the games. I wish I could play more, but I'm not sure playing, feeling guilty about it is something that Kevin: I know what you mean. Daniel: is the Kevin: I Daniel: right Kevin: feel Daniel: approach. Kevin: guilty that I have them and I'm not... Well, I have more time than you right now. It... There are games that I haven't played in a while and I feel guilty about, well, I should give it away or sell it or do something with it because why would you own this and not use it? Daniel: Hmm Kevin: Unless you're just a collector and you want to have them. Daniel: Right. Kevin: But so I feel guilt about having games that I haven't played in a while. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: So yes, it becomes not about play but about guilt. Daniel: Does it feel Kevin: Well, Daniel: kind Kevin: let Daniel: of Kevin: me Daniel: like Kevin: ask Daniel: a, Kevin: you this, Daniel: yes. Kevin: which ones are tempting you the most right now? What would you play if you could play anything in your set? What would you play? Daniel: Um... Hmm... That's a great question. I really do like Brass Birmingham. I love that. Kevin: to you. Daniel: And I think part of it is I like a good, crunchy, complex game. which I already know the rules for. You know what I mean? Kind of like Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I love learning rules, but at this point, just at this particular moment in my life, I almost kind of want to go back to something that's comfortable, which means maybe not going through the process of learning the rules and just playing Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: a nice crunchy game that I already know. I... I've, um, we, I got a copy of Hans at Teutonic about half a year ago and I really, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and I played a little bit of it. I really like it. I'd love to play that some more. Um, Kevin: Hmm. I Daniel: and Kevin: don't know Daniel: then Kevin: that one, but I mean I've heard of it, but I've not ever played it. Daniel: Yeah, yeah. And then I just got in the mail the other day, I think something I crowdfunded about a year ago, a GNC by Carl Chudik. Kevin: The people that make vitamins and supplements, Daniel: Yeah, right, Kevin: GNC. Daniel: it does sound like that, right. Yeah, right, yeah. Kevin: Jadon Daniel: That's Kevin: Nutrition Corp. Company. Daniel: it. Yeah, yeah, you have to move these cubes to add vitamin K to the... to the supplements. Yeah, it's great. Kevin: Yeah, it's good. Daniel: But you have to be careful of not getting too much folic acid. I don't even know what that means. Kevin: Right? Daniel: No, this is A-E-G-E-A-N space C, the G and C, the body of water around Greece. And it's by Carl Chudik. It's multi-use cards and I love multi-use cards. which is a game mechanism. And I would love to be able to sit down and really play that, but it just, yeah. So how about you? What do you, if you could play anything right now, what would you be playing? Kevin: I got a game in of Root recently, Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: which I love, but I'll tell you what, I've realized recently there's a trap with Root. Daniel: Oh. Kevin: There are so many expansions and you add them and you want to try the new characters, but then you don't really understand them. And the way Daniel: Hmm Kevin: the game is, the other people need to understand them too. Daniel: Hmm Kevin: And it just becomes a whole... Teaching learning experience and not the game. Daniel: Mmm... Kevin: So I think if you really want to play route just buy the core game That's Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: all you need and just play the heck out of it Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: And if you really have played the heck out of it and find you're tired of those four classic primal Critters then add on but we're so we're so tempted in the board game community to want to get all the expansions but it just doesn't work with Root because they're just too dang hard. Because you've got to know this character and the other characters. Because you can't beat them if you don't know how they work. But it was Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: still fun. But yeah, we were kind of dig, digging and scratching our heads a little bit. That's been good. Though I do still love the game. And then Frosthaven. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: We busted that out again recently after a long hiatus. I just love the gloom haven frost haven stuff It really is more of a puzzle. It's almost like sudoku Daniel: Mm-mm. Mm. Kevin: Because you've got your cards and you've got to figure out When and how to play them within this limited dungeon space Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: By Daniel: yeah. Kevin: a certain time so it's just such an interesting game because it is not Dice driven and it's not I don't know. It's not that somebody has the magic elder sword and they can just carve them up. It's more of like coordinating together when to play certain cards at certain times. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I, what is a game? It's more of a puzzle and Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: it's really satisfying. Daniel: Hand management. Is that kind of the Kevin: I Daniel: mechanism Kevin: guess that's the mechanism, Daniel: that it's. Kevin: but I'm thinking, I wanna say with Sudoku, but Sudoku is figuring out an answer to a puzzle. Is there a game, something that's not a board game, but is there something like that where it's all about the timing? Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: Miniature golf? Where Daniel: Miniature Kevin: you've got Daniel: golf. Kevin: the big spinning wheel and you have to Daniel: You have to time Kevin: hit Daniel: it just Kevin: it at the Daniel: right Kevin: right time to get it Daniel: to Kevin: to Daniel: get. Kevin: curve down? Daniel: I like it. Kevin: I don't know, but it's just such a delightful little game. as well Daniel: That's Kevin: as then Daniel: awesome. Kevin: getting to upgrade your character and you're like, ooh, I got a new card. So Daniel: I Kevin: yeah. Daniel: love it. You know, Kevin: I don't Daniel: you're... Kevin: care about the other stuff. I mean, I like getting a new character. I like the upgrade and I like the puzzle of a level. The other stuff is not, you know, doesn't matter. Daniel: One of the many things I love about you, Kevin, is that you're a person who can compare Frost Haven to miniature golf. I think Kevin: Alright. Daniel: that's a great comparison. What other podcast Kevin: I just have to Daniel: gives Kevin: play Daniel: you Kevin: this Daniel: that Kevin: card Daniel: comparison? Kevin: at the right time. Daniel: That's Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: right, that's right. You're talking about expansion. Thanks for sharing, and Ruth got me thinking about, we had Mandy Hutchinson on this. podcast from the Sultan Sas Pet podcast. Her cohost, Suzanne Sheldon, also on the Sultan Sas podcast, has made the observation, I think, that once she gets an expansion for a game, she's found that she doesn't play the game anymore. Kevin: So hate Daniel: And I've kind of found that too. With a few exceptions, I have found that too. Do you find that's true in your life? Kevin: Yes, I do. I really do. It's a curse. And I Daniel: Why Kevin: guess Daniel: is Kevin: it Daniel: that? Kevin: kind of makes sense that It's kind of it's like you fall in love and you're really excited and then Then you add something on that makes it not just a simple I'm in love with this game. Like all of a sudden it becomes too complicated. Yeah expansions or uh, yeah Daniel: I think that's right. And yet we keep buying the expansions, at least I do. Yeah, so it's like some part of us maybe knows that it changes this thing that we love and we may not love it as much anymore. And yet, I buy the expansion anyway. Kevin: I know because Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: you love it and you're like, oh Daniel: Right, Kevin: well, I've Daniel: right. Kevin: got to get the expansion and we were completists So we most Daniel: Right? Kevin: of us Daniel: Right. Kevin: want to get the collection. You're like, well if I love this, I'll love this other thing. Well, no It it really makes it. Yeah Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: It makes it more complicated and especially if you have a bunch of games the chances that you're going to play that game Enough that you need the expansion are almost no Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: Because the truth is you're only going to play it a few times in the next year Daniel: That's right. That's right. Kevin: because you're going to play other games. Yeah, that's, I had not heard it verbalized that way. That's a powerful way to put it, that if you buy this expansion, you will not like this game as much. Daniel: Right, right, Kevin: Doesn't make any sense. Daniel: right. Well, you know who also loved to play expansions, especially of, um, Frosthaven and, uh, miniature golf was, Kevin: Jurgen? Daniel: uh, Jurgen Moltmann. Yeah, Jurgen Moltmann. He, he, he's famous for it. He, uh, he would buy, uh, I don't know if any of us just do, I, yes, Kevin: Go Daniel: he, Kevin: ahead. Daniel: all the expansions, Kevin: Okay. Daniel: all the expansions, um, he's known for it, um, He's known for it. Kevin: I love Kattan. He actually knew Klaus Kuber. Daniel: Yes, yes. And Kevin: I Daniel: got Kevin: just Daniel: all Kevin: made Daniel: the expansions. Kevin: that up. Daniel: Yeah. You could have expansions for miniature golf. It would be Kevin: It would be. Daniel: like rocket propelled golf Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: balls or something like that. Or, yeah. Well, anyway, Kevin: You could get a drone so you could Daniel: we Kevin: see Daniel: can get Kevin: where Daniel: a drone. Kevin: the hole Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: is. I have a I have a first edition of Theology of Play that was annotated by Juergen Moltmann and in the comp you can see Where he was writing it and Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: underlining Daniel: yeah. Kevin: some of it. He actually lists his board games. It's really interesting Daniel: That's fantastic. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: Guard Kevin: yeah Daniel: that with your life. That is a precious, Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: precious book. Kevin: the guy really liked Twister. It was strange Daniel: Was that his number one? I was going to ask what was Kevin: That Daniel: number Kevin: was Daniel: one. Kevin: number three. I think is Twister Daniel: Number three. Number Kevin: Number Daniel: three. Kevin: three. Daniel: That's great. Kevin: I know. Daniel: I should have known. Kevin: I don't Daniel: I Kevin: have a Daniel: should Kevin: first Daniel: have known. Kevin: edition of Kidding, yes. Daniel: So, so getting back to Moltmann, I know we're approaching here the end Kevin: Yes. Daniel: of our episode. Are there any themes from Moltmann page 15 through 24 that we think we've not gone into yet that is important to get into? Kevin: So this bit that follows up is that we imitate God when Daniel: Mm-hmm. Kevin: we are playing. So I think that's a theme of we are liberated creatures. We are set free because of God's creation. and God's intent, but also because of God's redemption. We are liberated and we should act more like it, and we should be more playful and be the child, and we do that by imitating God and having the freedom to play. So it's really right in our wheelhouse, these Daniel: Yeah, Kevin: ideas. Daniel: yeah, yeah. I love that, yeah. And I think something that he lifted up that I hadn't thought of quite in those terms, in terms of how we imitate God through play, is that play slash creation, maybe in Moltmann's argument, allows the player or the creationist to engage in, I think what Moltmann calls, self-representation. which I think today we might maybe say self-expression maybe, but this, you know, like this quote of, like you talk about the birds, you know, this he talks about this Dutch biologist, Buitendijk that I know you found this quote, Kevin, Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: but this idea that, you know, this over the top extravagant diversity of birds with colors and songs and things like that, that ultimately that leads someone to think there's gotta be some. some element of self-expression in that, right? That in other words, like birds are singing and colorful, not just to get mates, you know, not just for the function, the function of it, but just to express themselves, right? To represent themselves. And it got me thinking about, I mean, what a gift of play that is for us, for us as human beings too, right? That we play just to express ourselves, right? And that there's something inherently good about that. freedom to Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: have self-expression Kevin: and... Daniel: and self-representation. Go ahead. Kevin: Yeah, no, I wonder what he meant by representation. And I like that you put it as self-expression. And I think you're right. Yes, that we get to have agency and we get to participate. We get to do something that is not work. And the birds are not really hunting when they sing. They are communicating or maybe looking for a mate, but it's going, it's also a bit unneeded. They're doing it out of joy. I Know Why Daniel: Right. Kevin: the Caged Bird Sings is Maya Angelou's famous book. Nature is more beautiful than it needs to be, and we can perceive its beauty. And that suggests God's purposes and our place within them, Daniel: Yeah, yeah, Kevin: which is really amazing. Daniel: yeah. Dave Bindewald, a former guest Kevin: Mm-hmm. Daniel: on here, if you want to listen, I just want to go back in this episode with, Can Games Save the World with Dave Bindewald. He talks about that moment of almost conversion for him when he realized that there was like, what, like 200,000 species of beetles in the world or something like that. Or I forget the exact number, but he just talked about what a converting almost moment that was for him. It's like, That's so extravagantly over the top, right? The world doesn't need 200,000 species of beetles, and yet we get it, right? And just what a glorious playful reality that is, you know? Kevin: Yeah, that's a great way to put it, a glorious playful reality. And so like a child, we need to receive the kingdom of God like a child, which is a teaching of Jesus, and we do that because God made us that way, and God seems to be someone who does play dice with the universe, right? Like God does play a game in a sense. Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: And Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: I love that Moltmann says, we can be absorbed and serious about a game, but transcend ourselves in knowing it's just a game. And that's something that's haunted me through all our conversations Daniel: Mmm. Kevin: is this idea that games are this artificial thing. You open a box, it's got a ritual bit, you set out the stuff, you play it, and then like a good ritual, it ends. Like you put Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: it up in the box and you walk away. Or like Daniel: Hmm. Kevin: the mass has ended, the church service ends and you walk away. Daniel: Right, right. Kevin: That's a very haunting bit. So it's important while we're playing, but also it's just a game. And I think that's such Daniel: Hmm Kevin: a marvelous way to think of sort of being aware that what we're doing is not important, which is what makes it important. Daniel: How much of that do you think is a metaphor for like everything? Kevin: I think it completely is. I mean, I guess we've gotta eat and we need to help make the world a better place, right? But it still should come out of a place of joy. I don't know, what do you think? I guess I'm a little afraid to make it too. Daniel: I know, I've been just pondering that too. I don't know the answer as well. All this talk about play being unnecessary, it kind of begs the question, well, what is necessary? And is anything necessary? Kevin: I think Daniel: Depending Kevin: justice Daniel: on... Kevin: and goodness and those sorts of things, maybe? Daniel: Yeah, yeah. Kevin: Ethics? Daniel: Is it necessary? Or is it? Kevin: But we don't do them because they're beautiful. Daniel: Is it just Kevin: We Daniel: a reality? Kevin: do them because we should. Right. Isn't Daniel: Right, Kevin: ethics Daniel: like I... Kevin: and Daniel: Like, I guess what I'm wondering is... Like maybe we think of food as a necessity. Kevin: Well, we need sustenance. That is a necessity, Daniel: Right, Kevin: or else Daniel: right, Kevin: you can't. Daniel: right. Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: I don't Kevin: I Daniel: know, Kevin: mean in the Daniel: and- Kevin: sense that this none of this has to be here. So yes to some degree The world is not necessary The cosmos would go along just fine without us. So to that degree. Yeah, it all it is all unnecessary Correct Daniel: Right. Kevin: But given the preciousness of life It seems necessary that we do things to preserve and help life even Daniel: So... Kevin: though we can choose not to, we have free will. Daniel: So whether something is necessary or not is dependent upon where we set the bounds of the game. Maybe. Kevin: Yes. Daniel: I don't know. Kevin: I think my brain's starting to hurt and I'm hungry speaking of necessities Daniel: We gotta listen to that. Kevin: microphone Need some more tahin. You ever tried tahin spice? Daniel: I've tried it with my daughter has introduced it to me. She eats it on her watermelon. Kevin: Mm-hmm. It's good. Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: Cantaloupe. Daniel: I Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: like Kevin: it's good. Daniel: it. Kevin: There's another spice that I've learned that's Hispanic origins. Mexican, maybe they're both Mexico. I'm not sure adobo spice. Have you tried adobo spice? Daniel: I don't think so. Kevin: It's kind of funky sweet and you put on a hamburger. Delicious. Adobo. Not Daniel: You Kevin: adobe. Daniel: put it on Kevin: You'd Daniel: a Kevin: think Daniel: hamburger Kevin: it'd be adobe like a house adobo. Daniel: adobo. Okay. And you put it on a hamburger. Interesting. Huh. Kevin: Good stuff. Okay, next time. Daniel: I'm excited about next time. Do you, as well, do you want to, do you want to reveal it? Do you want me to reveal it? Kevin: You reveal it. Daniel: Okay. Next time, next time, dear listeners, Kevin: next time. Daniel: Kevin and I are going to be talking about, I gotta, I gotta do the voice. I gotta do a voice for this. the seven deadly sins of gaming. Om. Kevin: I was trying Daniel: The Kevin: to Daniel: seven Kevin: do this Daniel: deadly. Kevin: doing the creep creepy doing stuff Daniel: Oh, I like it. I like it. The seven deadly sins of gaming on next episode. And that'll be fun. Kevin: Oh, Daniel: Oh, Kevin: it'll be fun. Daniel: yeah. Kevin: It's Daniel: Yeah. Kevin: kind of scary, but kind of Daniel: It's Kevin: fun. Daniel: kind Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: of Kevin: the seven deadly sins of Daniel: the Kevin: gaming. Daniel: seven deadly sins of, of gaming and, uh, spoilers. One of them is, um, eating Doritos. I don't know. I don't know. I made that one up. We'll see. We'll see. You have to come back and find out. We'll Kevin: Yeah. Daniel: have to find out. In the meantime, Kevin, how can people find us? Kevin: They can find us at BoardGameFaith.com. We're especially active on Instagram. So find us on Instagram. And if you would like to add a photo of yourself with a favorite board game at a place of worship, hashtag BoardGameFaith. Daniel: Yep, yep, be great. Kevin: Always glad to see those. Daniel: And if we can ever be a support for you and your place of worship or wherever else you may find yourself in terms of providing resources for thinking about the theology of play and the intersection of spirituality and board games, please check out any of our other episodes or reach out to us and we'd be happy to talk with you about that as well. We love talking about Kevin: Yeah, Daniel: this kind of stuff. Kevin: info at boardgamefaith.com. Daniel: Yep, yep. Well, Kevin: Okay? Daniel: Kevin, thank you so much. Listeners, thank you so much for spending a part of your day with us and being willing to listen through a little bit about this fascinating book. And we are so grateful for you and for your spending time with us. It's a privilege and a gift, and we're grateful for you. Kevin: Goodbye friends, take care. Daniel: Bye Kevin, bye bye.