Daniel:
So has a board game ever changed you? I mean, has it ever altered your perspective on something or transformed your mood or helped to cultivate something new in your mind or in your heart or even just given you something new to think about? On today's episode, we're welcoming special guest, Mandy Hutchinson to discuss how board games can do more than just provide fun. They can also teach. It's Games That Teach Part 2 on this episode of Board Game Faith. Well, that was the abridged version. It was the abridged version.

Kevin:
The Average

Daniel:
I was

Kevin:
version.

Daniel:
just getting in my groove. Well, welcome everybody. We're so glad to have you here for Board Game Faith. My name is Daniel Hilty.

Kevin:
My name is Kevin Taylor.

Mandi:
And I'm Mandy Hutchinson. Hello.

Kevin:
Hello?

Daniel:
Mandy, welcome. We're so glad to have you here.

Mandi:
Thank you. Merci beaucoup. Got to do it in two languages. The Canadian on the panel.

Daniel:
Absolutely, absolutely.

Kevin:
I wanted to ask where you're from, so...

Mandi:
Yes, je suis Canadienne. I am Canadian. I speak English, mais je parle français aussi. I speak French as well. But yeah, I am from the nation's capital. Oh, educational moment. If you don't know, do you know what the nation's capital is?

Daniel:
Is it Ottawa?

Mandi:
Yes! Ding ding ding! Hahaha!

Kevin:
but his spiritual heart is Edmonton.

Daniel:
hahahaha

Mandi:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, duh. Okay.

Kevin:
No,

Mandi:
I'm from the

Kevin:
I

Mandi:
West

Kevin:
thought...

Mandi:
but Edmonton we don't

Kevin:
No,

Mandi:
talk about

Kevin:
I thought

Mandi:
it

Kevin:
that was the ho- I was a hockey joke. I'm sorry.

Mandi:
Oh no, I know, a very good one actually. I'm actually from

Kevin:
Axel.

Mandi:
Alberta, which is very

Kevin:
Oh,

Mandi:
close

Kevin:
okay.

Mandi:
to, you know,

Daniel:
Oh

Mandi:
from Calgary, Alberta, which is close to

Kevin:
Right?

Mandi:
Edmonton. So that's why that makes it even

Kevin:
I

Mandi:
funnier.

Kevin:
don't, I've never been to Edmonton. I, yeah.

Daniel:
You

Mandi:
You're not missing any, anything.

Kevin:
Oh.

Daniel:
know,

Mandi:
I'm kidding.

Daniel:
most of our Canadian listeners to this podcast are in Alberta.

Mandi:
Really?

Daniel:
When it breaks down, you know, like where the listeners are from, most of our Canadian listeners are from Alberta. So

Mandi:
Okay,

Daniel:
we love.

Mandi:
West is the best!

Daniel:
Yeah. What do you call? Is it Albertans? Who do you what do you call residents of Alberta?

Mandi:
Yep, Albertans.

Daniel:
Albertans.

Kevin:
Albertan.

Daniel:
We love Albertans. We're thankful for all of the Albertans.

Mandi:
Yay!

Daniel:
So, Eddie, welcome. Welcome to all

Mandi:
Thank you.

Daniel:
of our Canadian listeners, and especially Mandy.

Mandi:
JAKE

Kevin:
That's right.

Mandi:
Ha

Daniel:
So,

Mandi:
ha

Kevin:
And

Mandi:
ha.

Daniel:
Kevin, what are we talking about today?

Kevin:
today we are revising the topic of one of our more popular episodes, which is games that teach, because teaching is adjacent to the spiritual or religious life. I mean, so much of religion and spirituality is about learning and growing and expanding, hopefully, kind of like trees. You just kind of keep going up, up, up, up, which by the way, little side trivia fact. If you carved your initials in a tree 50 years later, how tall would those initials be if you carved them, say, like

Daniel:
This is

Kevin:
three

Daniel:
so good.

Kevin:
inches tall? Do you know this one? This is for the Canadians too, because they have a lot of trees.

Mandi:
As a teacher,

Kevin:
Warehouser.

Mandi:
I should probably know this.

Kevin:
I only know it because I'm reading this book and it mentioned it like last. I didn't know this two weeks ago. They'd be the same because trees only grow on the top. They don't grow like the

Daniel:
Really?

Kevin:
whole tree. It's only grows at the top. So it would

Daniel:
So

Kevin:
always stay the

Daniel:
it

Kevin:
same.

Daniel:
wouldn't go up

Kevin:
They

Daniel:
with

Kevin:
don't

Daniel:
the

Kevin:
stretch.

Daniel:
tree.

Kevin:
No, they don't.

Mandi:
Interesting.

Kevin:
Yeah. And it makes sense. They don't stretch. They just keep adding on the top, which is the overstory.

Mandi:
That does

Daniel:
Oh, they

Kevin:
So

Mandi:
make

Kevin:
the

Daniel:
overstore

Mandi:
sense.

Kevin:
love. Yeah.

Daniel:
it. Yeah.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Kevin:
So we are supposed to keep growing and learning and board games are part of that is learning and growing about others or ourselves. And so we're excited to have a teacher and a podcaster this week and Mandy Hutchinson.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah. So Mandy is the perfect guest for this. Not only knows board games so well, but also a teacher too. So Mandy, many of us know already as the cohost of the Salt and Sass podcast. I was sharing with her before we went on the air. Mandy's been one of my favorite boarding podcasters for a while now. And if you haven't checked out the Salt and Sass podcast, I really encourage you to do it. It's just great. just joyful and positive and thoughtful and even, even when they talk about a game that's kind of like a one and done, which is the phrase they use, it's just like, you know, maybe not the best game for them. They just do it in a very respectful way. And I just love the podcast. So I really, really recommend it. Plus I also share with Mandy, I think she and Suzanne often recommend games that are very, that vibe a lot with my kind of taste in games.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
So I've spent a lot of money over the years based on their recommendations. And I've done all of it happily. They've been great games. So Mandy.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
Welcome to Board Game Faith. We really appreciate your taking time to be with us. Thank you.

Mandi:
Thank you for the kind words and thank you for having me. I'm always excited to talk about games and education.

Kevin:
Right?

Daniel:
Yay!

Kevin:
So what got you into board gaming at first?

Mandi:
Oh my goodness. Uh, that's a big question actually,

Daniel:
I'm gonna go.

Mandi:
because it's a couple of things. I think it would probably be family. That would be the big one. So we had game time that was, how would you say this, a voluntold game time. You can volunteer time, but not really, because in my house, if your parents said something to you, that's what you were doing. There was no escaping that, because otherwise, you know, the belt would be sitting by the table and be like, what were you doing again? We're playing games.

Daniel:
Ah, you had to

Mandi:
came

Daniel:
play

Mandi:
up

Daniel:
games.

Mandi:
a very strict

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
household,

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
but it was fun. It was more just like don't misbehave kind of thing. It was just like more of the threat, but

Daniel:
Right?

Mandi:
the actual playing games was really fun. So we used to play, you know, like the Monopoly and the, you know, well in Canada, we had something called frustration. I think the equivalent would be trouble. We also had

Daniel:
Okay,

Mandi:
trouble, but

Kevin:
Right.

Mandi:
frustration

Daniel:
okay,

Mandi:
was like the Canadian

Daniel:
okay, okay.

Mandi:
version

Daniel:
The thing

Mandi:
and

Daniel:
where you

Mandi:
so.

Daniel:
like, you hit the cup and the thing and

Mandi:
Yeah,

Daniel:
it pops

Mandi:
the little

Daniel:
and

Mandi:
pop-o-matic

Daniel:
okay. Yeah,

Mandi:
thing.

Daniel:
yeah, yeah, pop-o-matic,

Mandi:
Yeah, so

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
then

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
you move the pieces. Oh my gosh, my mom loved that game. But then we also played games like Domino's, which was really big in our culture. So I have a very diverse background. You know, Portuguese, Caribbean, my parents from the Caribbean were like a mishmash, but Domino's is huge.

Daniel:
Hmm

Mandi:
And so that was always something that we played. And chess, chess was always something growing up that my family played. So games was just always part of the ritual, spending that family time together. Um, you know, that was, that was the thing. Um, and then, although my brother might disagree because we were, oh gosh, now that I think about it, we're pretty evil when we play

Daniel:
Hahaha

Mandi:
some gates with him. Oh, I'm so sorry. Sorry, brother. Um, but, uh, the second part of me getting into board games was, um, when I was in school and I had a teacher tell me, I won't say their name, but, um, they told me that I should never take math.

Daniel:
Huh.

Mandi:
I

Daniel:
Huh.

Mandi:
just wasn't very good at it. And I was like, that to me was not the approach I was hoping

Daniel:
Yeah,

Kevin:
Yeah.

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
that they would take as a teacher, you know what I mean? So I was

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
like, this made me want to become a teacher, but then also use games to make things fun.

Daniel:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
So I kind of have like a different reasons of like when I started getting into gaming and then when I got back into gaming. So that kind of second part was when I kind of got back into it.

Kevin:
So did you take math after

Mandi:
I

Kevin:
that?

Mandi:
did to prove her and myself that I could do it. And I took math right up until university, I think. I didn't take it at university up until that point. I mean, did I get 90%? No, but I was very happy with my 75% because I worked hard for it.

Daniel:
Absolutely.

Kevin:
There's the competitive streak, right?

Mandi:
That's it.

Kevin:
Good. Prove them wrong. That's awesome.

Mandi:
Exactly.

Kevin:
Where do you live now?

Mandi:
Uh, so do I, so I am in O-town Ottawa in Ontario, Canada. Um, but formerly I was born and raised in Alberta. So Calgary, Alberta is, uh, where I'm at. Is that what you meant as in

Kevin:
Yes,

Mandi:
like,

Kevin:
yes, yes.

Mandi:
okay. Just wanted to make sure I'm like work wise.

Kevin:
Well,

Mandi:
So yeah.

Kevin:
do you want to talk? What is your work? Tell us about that.

Mandi:
Yeah, so I hope no one takes that I'm on here as a six for a nine sort of thing. But I am a teacher by trade. I did teach kindergarten through grade eight. But currently, I teach adults. And I work for the federal government in Canada. And yeah, and I also work in policies and programs. So I also facilitate courses, but I also create content. for courses. So it's a little bit of a different avenue, but yeah, I did teach in the public and Catholic school boards for a few years.

Daniel:
How has that that must have been a shift I would imagine to go from kindergarten through

Mandi:
Yep.

Daniel:
eight through adult policy and program education.

Mandi:
Oh, so you think the children are the hard part? No. Adults

Kevin:
Right.

Mandi:
are very set in their ways. You know what I mean? Hey, I've been

Daniel:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
guilty of this too, you know, you like to do things a certain way. And then when someone goes, well, this is another way that you could try doing it. Well, no, I've always done it this way. Kids are, you know, a little more, their brains are a little more malleable. They're willing to at least try. They may not like it at first, but they're at least willing to try it. So

Daniel:
Right.

Mandi:
it was harder. It's harder with adults, I find.

Daniel:
Hmm.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
So do you find, do you find, have you found discovered ways of kind of getting through the rigidness of the adult brain to teach them some tricks or techniques along the way or?

Mandi:
And maybe this is the, so I'm very open about this, and maybe this is a benefit of having ADHD. You get really creative with doing things, and

Daniel:
Right?

Mandi:
I make it my mission for those people who are, you know, maybe a little more, we'll say challenging when you have sessions. It's my mission now to make sure that they leave the class learning something new, whether their opinion changes completely is up to them. But at least if they've learned something new, yeah, so I try to use. examples that would potentially relate to them or something that's, you know, that they work in or whatever the case may be. And I find that generally helps.

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
Or getting their opinion on something. Might be in the beginning they don't agree or we do we have, you know, we are not seeing eye to eye on a certain thing, but that's okay. I still want to acknowledge and hear you. And then how can we take what you know now and how can we learn something else and do things a little differently that, you know, is it works well for everybody, not just you.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
So, yeah.

Daniel:
A sense of kind of agency and ownership in the conversation as well, that it's not just being talked at or something, but

Mandi:
That's it.

Daniel:
they

Mandi:
I'm

Daniel:
have

Mandi:
not

Daniel:
input,

Mandi:
there.

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
I mean, yes,

Daniel:
right.

Mandi:
I do have policies and things I have to tell you that you need to do, and those

Daniel:
Right.

Mandi:
are non-negotiables,

Daniel:
Right.

Mandi:
you know, when you're talking about

Daniel:
Right.

Mandi:
guidelines and rules. But outside of that, yeah, we should still be open to having a discussion as long as we're not being offensive or anything like that. Yeah, absolutely.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah. I remember, it was a couple years ago. No, it's more than that because it's before COVID. But, and I apologize, I don't remember all the details, but

Mandi:
Okay.

Daniel:
there was some incidents at a board game convention and that you hosted a video conversation about

Mandi:
Oh yes.

Daniel:
boundaries and borders and I thought you did a really great job of navigating, you know, some difficult waters to talk about but you did that in a very helpful educational, respectful way. And anyway, so I just, I can imagine hearing you talk about policies and procedures, so that's maybe a little glimpse of the kind of stuff you do.

Mandi:
Yeah,

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
actually.

Daniel:
okay.

Mandi:
Now, is that the video I did with Suzanne at BGG? Because

Daniel:
I don't-

Mandi:
we did a couple. We've done one on harassment prevention, and that was more recent. And then there was one a long time ago where Suzanne and I had a discussion.

Daniel:
It must have been Suzanne, because this was like, I think this was before COVID. This was a while ago.

Mandi:
Okay, because there was, yeah, a video, I had like a whole panel of people, and then there

Daniel:
Yes.

Mandi:
was one was just Suzanne and I.

Daniel:
Oh, okay.

Mandi:
And

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
okay, so if it's the panel one, yeah, that was a talk about harassment, because I think people were a little confused about the definition, like, well, what is harassment is, you know, touching someone harassment. I'm like, well, that's consent. But that could lead to x, y, z. But I think people were maybe not fully understanding

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
the definition of certain things. And there are some people that willfully choose to ignore these definitions and I mean you hope in time that they'll learn. But yeah that's definitely a conversation that needed to happen and still is

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
happening. So no

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
I appreciate you to

Daniel:
for sure.

Mandi:
looking at that.

Daniel:
Yeah, no, it was good. I recommend it to our listeners to

Kevin:
Is that on

Daniel:
find

Kevin:
YouTube?

Daniel:
it out there.

Kevin:
We can link to it. Is

Mandi:
amazing.

Kevin:
it?

Daniel:
I would think so. I think it's

Kevin:
Yeah.

Daniel:
where I saw

Mandi:
It's

Daniel:
it.

Mandi:
still on the dice tower, so

Kevin:
OK,

Mandi:
that's

Kevin:
well, I'll

Mandi:
where

Kevin:
look

Mandi:
you

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
would

Kevin:
into

Mandi:
find that

Kevin:
it

Mandi:
video. Yeah.

Kevin:
and link that. Yeah.

Mandi:
Yeah, awesome.

Kevin:
Awesome. Yep.

Daniel:
So where do you find these two worlds intersecting for humanity? Where do you see your interest in board games and teaching coming together? How have they overlapped for you?

Mandi:
Oh my goodness. So at work now, I'm known as, you know, like if there's an event or something happening, Ooh, Mandy, we're coming to you looking for you to bring some board games or some kind of activity on the scene. I'm like, oh my goodness, pressure, especially

Daniel:
Hehehe

Mandi:
when like the, you know, deputy minister is asking you to put together an event.

Daniel:
Oh wow,

Mandi:
That's

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
huge. You know, or just if we're teaching a course and I'll be like, okay, how am I going to make people remember and understand these definitions? And then it's like, ah, games. And,

Daniel:
Hmm

Mandi:
you know, I'm learning French again. So yes, I speak French, but you know, one can always improve on their language and

Daniel:
Of course.

Mandi:
games are great because I came from a province that was primarily English speaking. So I did not learn French like a lot of people who are from Eastern Canada. So I had to learn it as an adult and

Daniel:
Okay.

Mandi:
games helped me out with that. So anything that's going to make something that might not be so interesting, more interesting, then I'm

Daniel:
Yeah

Mandi:
happy to throw games in the mix because I love that too.

Daniel:
Have you found yourself designing games specifically to teach something or do you find that these other games that games are already out there that you can use to

Mandi:
Oh,

Daniel:
communicate?

Mandi:
I see what you mean. Oftentimes, it depends on what I'm doing. So sometimes it will take a game, and I say this because I'm not here to destroy or change people's work, alter it slightly to, you know, accommodate the lesson that I'm teaching. Sometimes it doesn't matter the actual gameplay. It's just the there's like a dynamic or something I need from that game

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
to teach

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
a lesson.

Daniel:
yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
That makes sense, that makes sense.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
Our...

Kevin:
I mean you could just lock them in the room with the game of root and only

Mandi:
Ha

Kevin:
the

Mandi:
ha!

Kevin:
French

Daniel:
hahahaha

Kevin:
instructions and tell them they can't come out till they

Daniel:
hahahaha

Kevin:
actually

Daniel:
hahahaha

Kevin:
beat

Daniel:
hahahaha hahahaha

Kevin:
you at the game and they've never played it before.

Mandi:
that they might

Kevin:
That

Mandi:
quit

Kevin:
that's

Mandi:
actually

Kevin:
it's like Saw

Mandi:
at

Kevin:
but remember the movie Saw it's like Saw

Mandi:
that

Kevin:
but

Mandi:
point. Yes.

Kevin:
part eight.

Mandi:
Let me out!

Daniel:
Uhhhh

Mandi:
Ha ha.

Kevin:
Let me out. First cut your arm off. I don't know how to

Mandi:
Yeah,

Kevin:
say that in

Mandi:
exactly.

Kevin:
French.

Daniel:
Hahaha

Mandi:
Yeah, that's literally how it would go, the anger.

Daniel:
You both share a fondness of horror, I believe. Uh,

Mandi:
Oh,

Kevin:
Are you

Mandi:
you

Daniel:
yeah.

Kevin:
into

Mandi:
love

Kevin:
horror movies

Mandi:
horror?

Kevin:
and things? I do.

Mandi:
Yes, I've been I've been slacking a little bit. But yes, I okay, my mom. It's all for my mother. And she probably let me watch horror movies way too young. But yes, I love horror movies.

Kevin:
Nice, yes. I had an eighth grade teacher actually who read this, read us, this was 84,

Mandi:
Okay.

Kevin:
1884, and she

Daniel:
Hahaha

Kevin:
read us a Stephen King short story and I was like that was awesome. So I went and started reading all the Stephen King and then

Mandi:
Nice.

Kevin:
I worked at a local video store back with the VHS and they had in there, inside the store was like a little fake front porch and it was the haunted

Mandi:
Cool.

Kevin:
for the horror

Mandi:
Yeah.

Kevin:
movies and so I was always intrigued. So yeah, I've always had a fondness for the horror stuff.

Mandi:
nice. Do you like the- I'm not a fan of like, gory is like- I prefer more- so horror is a weird one for me. Some gory stuff is okay, but if I find at that point that I almost want a touch of like, humor to it versus

Kevin:
Right.

Mandi:
like, movies like The Exorcist or you know, I know I'm sorry and I- and this is always something when I was in Catholic school that I got in a lot of trouble for.

Daniel:
You're good.

Mandi:
But I do like the supernatural.

Daniel:
Yeah, you're good here, yeah.

Mandi:
Okay, I gotta throw that out there, because some people are not okay with the supernatural. That is something that I do enjoy.

Daniel:
Yeah, no,

Kevin:
Why don't they like the supernat? You

Daniel:
you're

Kevin:
mean

Daniel:
in

Kevin:
they

Daniel:
a

Kevin:
don't?

Daniel:
safe place here.

Kevin:
It's

Daniel:
You're good.

Mandi:
I- Ha ha

Kevin:
because they

Mandi:
Well,

Kevin:
think

Mandi:
you

Kevin:
it's...

Mandi:
know

Kevin:
and like it's demonic

Mandi:
Yeah,

Kevin:
or that because

Mandi:
yes.

Kevin:
they think it's... yeah

Mandi:
Yeah, and

Kevin:
no

Mandi:
I mean, I guess

Kevin:
it's

Mandi:
to a

Kevin:
just

Mandi:
certain,

Kevin:
stories.

Mandi:
I mean, I guess, sure,

Kevin:
I don't

Mandi:
like

Kevin:
really

Mandi:
talking

Kevin:
believe

Mandi:
about

Kevin:
that

Mandi:
it?

Kevin:
people get possessed by demons personally so I did.

Mandi:
Right, and

Kevin:
It's

Mandi:
then because

Kevin:
not

Mandi:
they

Kevin:
a threat.

Mandi:
have in a lot of these movies the, like, you know, the priest is usually exorcising the demon and then, you know, they, anyway, it's not so much to talk about it, but I think it's when people start believing it, and then they got a little, you know, people would go into the bathroom, shut off all the lights, and, you know, it wasn't Candyman at that time, it was something else. that related to religion

Daniel:
that you

Mandi:
and

Daniel:
don't,

Mandi:
you know that

Daniel:
if you say three times, then you're in trouble.

Mandi:
yeah then

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
she would appear and you know

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
some stuff like that I I didn't do it because I was too scared

Daniel:
No, I

Kevin:
I

Mandi:
but

Daniel:
don't

Kevin:
did

Daniel:
believe

Kevin:
it.

Mandi:
uh

Daniel:
in

Kevin:
I was

Daniel:
it,

Kevin:
disappointed.

Daniel:
but I've never said

Kevin:
Yeah.

Daniel:
it.

Kevin:
Yeah.

Mandi:
I mean, I guess it only, yeah, exactly. It's only what you believe in, right? And put into it that company.

Daniel:
Right, right.

Mandi:
I don't, when it comes to the other worldly things, I don't mess around with that. I don't do Ouija boards. I don't do any of that stuff. No.

Kevin:
Gotcha, gotcha.

Daniel:
On our previous episode, or right before this, we interviewed somebody who did a documentary on the satanic panic of Dungeons and Dragons. People were just kind of really scared

Mandi:
Oh...

Daniel:
from the 80s and kind

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
of similar vibe. Yeah. Just the sense that there's this fear that if you watch the horror film or play the Dungeons and Dragons or whatever, that

Mandi:
You'll just something

Daniel:
it's...

Mandi:
will happen.

Kevin:
Mm-hmm.

Daniel:
it somehow twists you or yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
I just, I don't, I just, like, I'm very respectful of what other people believe in.

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
And, uh, you know, my boyfriend, he's not Catholic. He's not, that's way on the other spectrum of what we're talking about right now. And

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
I find it very fascinating.

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
And I just feel like for me, anything that's not living, or I just, I don't mess around with that,

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
whether people believe it or not, leave it alone. That's just. Don't

Daniel:
Yep,

Mandi:
do it.

Daniel:
yep, sure, sure, sure.

Mandi:
But watching a movie is fine. Talking about it, watching a movie, it's cool. But

Daniel:
Yep.

Mandi:
stay away from playing with trinkets and

Daniel:
Right, right,

Mandi:
things like

Daniel:
right,

Mandi:
that.

Daniel:
right.

Mandi:
Don't call the dead, please.

Daniel:
Yeah. Right, right, right. No, it makes sense, it makes sense. So you mentioned using games to help you learn French. And

Mandi:
Mm-hmm.

Daniel:
may I ask, how did that happen, if I may ask? What were some examples of that?

Mandi:
Yeah, sure. So there's one game which I have a love-hate relationship with it. It's good for learning, but I had to play it so much that I kind of dislike it, but I don't at the same time. And that's a Milborne.

Daniel:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
Uh-huh. And when I moved to Ontario, that was like the game to learn French, you know, because you had your stop, your go, your, oh my gosh.

Daniel:
Yes,

Mandi:
And I swear I didn't

Daniel:
yes.

Mandi:
want to see that game for like a long time after that because I was so frustrated. But... It was good for learning basic words and trying to explain. So the teacher

Daniel:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
was like, okay, if you're playing this card, what does it do? Tell me what you would like to do. And as someone who hadn't, like had no French, it was difficult, but I appreciated the visual. I like things

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
that have a

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
visual. So even if I can't, if I don't know a word, I can describe it

Daniel:
Mmm.

Mandi:
in the language. And I found that was very helpful. So games like that.

Daniel:
That's a good point. I haven't really thought about, but yeah, I mean, games, in this they're like, you know, utterly abstract with no theme at all. I mean, there's usually some sort of visual reinforcement of what you're doing and

Mandi:
Yes.

Daniel:
helping you to learn and to immerse in the experience at least a little bit. So yeah, that's a good.

Mandi:
And then you just, we do it in English all the time. When you forget a word, right? You're like,

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
okay, you know the, so if we're talking about, you know, like the shelf that I have in the back, right? You know, the thing that holds all the games

Kevin:
Right.

Mandi:
and, you know what I mean?

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
You describe

Daniel:
yeah, yeah,

Mandi:
it.

Daniel:
right, right,

Mandi:
So that's

Daniel:
right.

Mandi:
a habit that I tried to do with French. So when I would play with games, I would use whatever context or picture there was to help me explain what I was trying to do, trying

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
to say

Kevin:
Hmm.

Mandi:
in French.

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
Yeah, so it's

Daniel:
that's

Mandi:
very helpful.

Daniel:
great, that's great.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
It reminds me, talking about kind of totally respecting people's works, but maybe altering for a certain goal. Our son, just graduated from college, he lived in the German language house there at this college.

Mandi:
Oh!

Daniel:
And his favorite, one of his favorite games is Anomia,

Mandi:
Oh,

Daniel:
which

Mandi:
so good.

Daniel:
is such a good game.

Mandi:
So good.

Daniel:
Kevin, have you played Anomia?

Kevin:
No, but I think you've told me about it.

Mandi:
Oh, Kevin,

Daniel:
It's

Mandi:
you're,

Daniel:
a great

Mandi:
oh,

Daniel:
game. It's

Mandi:
it's

Daniel:
a great...

Mandi:
so good.

Daniel:
And so they made a house version of that where it was all German

Mandi:
Nice.

Daniel:
words, you know, to kind

Mandi:
I love

Daniel:
of

Mandi:
it.

Daniel:
to try to... Yeah, so it was a nice way to kind of work on their German there. Yeah, Anomia is the one game... No, I shouldn't say the one game, but maybe one of three games that...

Mandi:
Mm-hmm.

Daniel:
All four of us in our family will agree to play. Telestration

Mandi:
Really?

Daniel:
is the other one,

Mandi:
Okay.

Daniel:
and anomia, but everyone loves anomia,

Mandi:
Wait, what

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
are the other two now? Now you can't

Kevin:
Yeah,

Mandi:
leave us

Kevin:
I'm

Mandi:
hanging

Kevin:
curious.

Daniel:
Oh

Mandi:
there

Daniel:
my goodness.

Mandi:
with just two, right? Ha ha ha.

Daniel:
I said that now, what do I, telestration's,

Mandi:
Oh, I'm sorry, I did mean to put you on the spot.

Daniel:
no, no, no, no, it's a good question, and I said it. Telestration's is the reign supreme. That's the number one that all four of us will always happily play. We have two children, one who just graduated from college, one who's in college. Anomia is certainly, yeah, is certainly number two after that. And then number three, I don't know, it'd probably be maybe something like strike, strike.

Mandi:
Ooh, Strike's

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
a

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
good one!

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
I forgot about

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
Strike.

Daniel:
Yeah, so our children who are absolutely awesome, they don't, they don't just. how they're wired. They don't quite get into the heavier board games as much, but the kind of the lighter stuff like Telaestrations and Anomia and Strike, they really, really love. And they're very gracious. On my birthday and Father's Day, they'll still play heavy games with me just because they know that I like that. And

Kevin:
Hmm.

Daniel:
so yeah, they're very nice.

Mandi:
That's nice, I love that.

Daniel:
Yeah. So anyway, yes, yes, yes. But you haven't played

Mandi:
No.

Daniel:
Anomia, Kevin. Is that?

Kevin:
No, it's

Daniel:
No,

Kevin:
a card

Daniel:
okay.

Mandi:
super

Kevin:
game.

Mandi:
good.

Kevin:
I was just looking it up.

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
It's

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
like, uh, you know, when you have that, you're trying to think of something that happens to me all the time, but you're like, uh, uh, what the, uh, like it's on the tip of your tongue, but you can't get it out.

Kevin:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
That's

Daniel:
Yes.

Mandi:
that game.

Daniel:
Isn't that what the word Anobia means? Like it means

Mandi:
I

Daniel:
that

Mandi:
think

Daniel:
experience

Mandi:
so.

Daniel:
of like,

Mandi:
Yeah. Ah!

Daniel:
I can't say it, but I know what it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Mandi:
And those with ADHD, this is our life on a regular basis.

Daniel:
So it's kind of a, it's a teaching game that it maybe helps others to understand that experience a little bit more maybe. Yeah.

Mandi:
Oh, yeah, that's great. It really

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
forces you for me. I have to force myself to even though I know you have to answer quickly It actually forces me to be like hey answering quickly is not helping you right now

Daniel:
Right.

Mandi:
Step back

Daniel:
Right,

Mandi:
take

Daniel:
right,

Mandi:
a minute and

Daniel:
right.

Mandi:
then even if I don't get the card, I still Want to say the answer just to

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
kind of?

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
Get that out. Yeah

Daniel:
yeah, exactly. Because then it's just kind of itching your brain and you need to get it out. Yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
Right? Exactly.

Daniel:
So can you think of some examples that you'd say of games that are, of games that are maybe really good at teaching something

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
and then, and I realize you're always very respectful and positive and so don't want to put you on the spot either but... If as part of that conversation, if you could think of any examples of games that, I don't know, maybe on the other side of the scale, maybe not quite as good at teaching things.

Mandi:
And yeah,

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
and at the end of the day, there are just some good games that are great to play, but not necessarily good for educational purposes.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
But some go-to games that I use, I use a lot of classic games. So in my current job, or actually even when I was teaching in the schools of the younger kids, Jenga was really popular. But I use Jenga either as an icebreaker kind of tool. So I would actually put topics or things on the on the tiles or on the

Daniel:
Oh

Mandi:
pieces.

Daniel:
yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
So if you took out that piece, you'd either have to answer the question or whatever the topic was I was discussing, you had to say something about it.

Daniel:
It's a great idea.

Mandi:
So, yeah, so that was really great for icebreakers. But it was also good with kids when we're like learning certain aspects and then they pick one and they, you know, you'd have to say a word or like for language. You know what I mean? If I write something in English, tell me what the word is in French and then you have to place the block. And then if it falls down, then, you know, you have to give me a sentence or something like this, you know,

Daniel:
I like that,

Mandi:
fun

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
things like that. So those were great for like younger children, but really great for adults as well. Um, any type of strategy game is really good. Um, and I know a lot of people will usually kind of preface something like a Kitan or something along those lines. Again, these are games that we all know from, you know, maybe when we first started playing in the hobby, they just can't be too complex.

Daniel:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
So that's why something like Kitan is pretty straightforward. And that, you know, that's where you get your, um, critical thinking. Planning, you

Daniel:
Mm-hmm,

Mandi:
know,

Daniel:
mm-hmm,

Mandi:
I, I

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
would even venture to say communication skills as your negotiation, right?

Daniel:
Right,

Mandi:
Um,

Daniel:
right.

Mandi:
which is something I struggled with. Communication for me, especially in front of people, was

Daniel:
Hmm.

Mandi:
horrible. I

Kevin:
Hmm.

Daniel:
Hmm.

Mandi:
refused to do it. I was very

Daniel:
Hmm.

Mandi:
shy and

Daniel:
Really?

Mandi:
I forced,

Daniel:
I'm not sure.

Mandi:
oh, I was so, I am not an extrovert as people think I am.

Daniel:
Huh.

Mandi:
So I had to force myself to step out of that and get involved and that's another reason why games were great for me because I got excited to play games and I could talk about it and not be worried about what people were thinking. about

Daniel:
Right. Right.

Mandi:
me while I was talking about it. So yeah, so games that have any type of strategy are great because it does promote some of that logic or critical thinking. Catan is one example. I'm trying to think, even sometimes games like Azul, you know, pattern recognition, that sort

Kevin:
Azul

Mandi:
of thing.

Kevin:
is great. I really like

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
Yeah,

Kevin:
Azul.

Mandi:
which is fantastic. It can get

Kevin:
It's

Mandi:
a little

Kevin:
easy

Mandi:
mean at two.

Kevin:
but complex. Yeah.

Mandi:
Right. Yes, exactly. I love that. Exactly that. So it's rules that are straightforward. But the idea of it has some complexity to it, which I appreciate. And you do want that kind of thinking for whatever you're teaching.

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
I made a little list here. Hold on, I have

Daniel:
That's great,

Mandi:
more.

Daniel:
that's great.

Mandi:
I got to scroll a little bit here.

Daniel:
Sure.

Mandi:
OK. OK, then I think I mentioned planning, observation, matching, identification. These are skills that can be found with games like Quirkl.

Daniel:
Oh yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
Yeah, so I don't know if

Daniel:
Love

Mandi:
people

Daniel:
Quirkl.

Mandi:
know. Yeah, Quirkel's great. That's been around for a long time. It's one that have different shapes and you're trying to group them together based on tiles that you acquire. So

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
that's a

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
really good one. Um, taboo is when we play a lot in French class. It's so hard because my teacher will pick a word. I'm like, I don't even know what this is. And you have to describe it without using all the words that she's given you. And then the other people in the class have to guess,

Kevin:
Right.

Mandi:
do you know the struggle of doing that when you don't? even fully understand the word.

Daniel:
That would be

Kevin:
Gotta

Daniel:
great

Kevin:
get real

Daniel:
for learning

Kevin:
creative.

Daniel:
a language. Yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
But it forces you. I think I get frustrated, but then I'm just like, it's just a game.

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
So...

Daniel:
yeah.

Kevin:
You could do code names for that too, right?

Mandi:
Codenames is good, and I'm glad they do make a French version. Because of the French alphabet and stuff, it's different. That's why any kind of like Scrabble codenames, any kind of word games or anything like that, it makes it easier if there is a French version. But yeah, you could totally just make your own, and that would totally work because you need the descriptor, right? Which is what they want you to start talking.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
I have Ticket to Ride, which is just good for geography. So... Yes, I know I'm a teacher, geography is not my strong suit. I kind of know where things are. I mean, Canada, yes. America, I'm like, I know it's kind of West, I know it's kind of East, sort of thing, but I'm like, it's not amazing.

Daniel:
It's there

Mandi:
But

Daniel:
somewhere.

Mandi:
it's

Kevin:
I'm American

Mandi:
there.

Kevin:
and I have the same in anything west of Tennessee kind of just is a vague

Mandi:
It's hard!

Kevin:
just a blob.

Mandi:
You all have a lot to remember!

Daniel:
We're out here in Missouri. I'm out here in Missouri that is often referred to as the flyover zone for much of the country.

Kevin:
Ha

Daniel:
You

Kevin:
ha ha ha!

Daniel:
just, as you go from coast to coast, you just wave at Missouri as you fly over us.

Kevin:
And

Daniel:
So

Kevin:
some of the

Daniel:
yeah,

Kevin:
states,

Daniel:
yeah.

Kevin:
the borders, or it's like they were decided by a drunk person, right? Well, we'll just go up here and then, you know, just little panhandles and crazy things. And I'm sure there's all sorts of bad history. I don't know about behind that, but anyway.

Mandi:
Sure, you know

Kevin:
Yeah,

Mandi:
what,

Kevin:
it's...

Mandi:
it's funny. I never thought about that, but you're absolutely right. Like, there's a reason why lines and things are like, I didn't even think about that myself. But there was a game actually that really tested my geography because the cubes kept covering the states. Oh, what is it called? Women. The name just went right out of my head. Oh, this is gonna it anyway. It's a game I spoke about recently. I'm so sorry. The name went right

Daniel:
It's fine.

Mandi:
out of my

Kevin:
What

Mandi:
head,

Kevin:
about

Mandi:
but it's

Kevin:
voting?

Mandi:
about women. Sorry.

Kevin:
What about voting?

Mandi:
Yes, yes. The women's in voting. Oh, my goodness.

Kevin:
hat yeah i haven't i've just seen it

Mandi:
You know which one I'm

Kevin:
talked

Mandi:
talking

Kevin:
about

Mandi:
about though,

Kevin:
yeah

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
right?

Kevin:
i don't know anything

Daniel:
yeah,

Kevin:
about it

Mandi:
By

Kevin:
i

Mandi:
Tori

Kevin:
haven't

Daniel:
yeah.

Kevin:
played it

Mandi:
Brown? Yeah, so I talked about it on the BGG podcast and on the Salt and Sass podcast, and it was a game about, you know, women's rights and getting the right to vote. And it was really, honestly, that would be great for a history lesson. I

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
was really involved in it. I was even describing it using the exact words that were used in the game. I'm not that person. I'm usually like the blue thingy that goes here. That's how I describe games, but that's how I was involved, so involved in this game, because I was remembering the terminology. But yeah, so that's another one that'd be great even just to learn a little bit about history and the gameplay is really good. I would recommend obviously for potentially like older students.

Daniel:
Is it called

Mandi:
But

Daniel:
Votes

Mandi:
yeah,

Daniel:
for Women?

Mandi:
votes for women. Thank

Daniel:
Votes

Mandi:
you.

Daniel:
for Women,

Mandi:
I'm like,

Daniel:
sure,

Mandi:
votes

Daniel:
I just

Mandi:
women,

Daniel:
looked it

Mandi:
there's

Daniel:
up,

Mandi:
a

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
word I'm missing.

Daniel:
Yeah, cool, cool.

Mandi:
So if you haven't tried it, it's quite good. I highly recommend it.

Daniel:
Great.

Mandi:
And that would be a great one for teaching history. So yeah, but trivia games are another one, just any, like

Daniel:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
I mentioned, I think there's, what's that one there? Trivial pursuit or anything like that, or, I mean, you can make your own questions if you want, but those are always great for learning. So wits and wagers is another one, things like that.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
Yeah, those are great ones. And I hadn't thought about the usefulness, this theme you've returned to a few times, the usefulness of games and learning language, but that's

Mandi:
Mmm.

Daniel:
so very true. Last night, we have a church game group and some of the students. as a farewell gift, they gave me some games and one of them was poetry for Neanderthals,

Mandi:
Okay.

Daniel:
which I had not played before, but I got thinking that would be really good because the idea is, like so many cards, so many things, you got a word on a card and you have to get your teammates to guess it, but the trick is you can only use one syllable words and if you're

Mandi:
I played

Daniel:
learning

Mandi:
this!

Daniel:
another language, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Mandi:
It's good!

Daniel:
yeah,

Mandi:
Yeah, yeah,

Daniel:
it

Mandi:
yeah!

Daniel:
is, and if you get it wrong, they bonk you with an

Mandi:
with

Daniel:
inflatable

Mandi:
the, yes!

Daniel:
club.

Mandi:
That's, okay,

Kevin:
Ugh.

Mandi:
can I tell you who taught me that game? Thank you, Mr. Eric Lang for that, because he loves

Daniel:
Really?

Mandi:
that game.

Daniel:
Oh my goodness. Oh, I... Wow, that elevates the game even more for me to know that that's that Eric Lange

Kevin:
What

Daniel:
favorite

Kevin:
is he like

Daniel:
game.

Kevin:
so much about it? It just sounds super

Mandi:
I think

Kevin:
interactive.

Mandi:
he... Oh, I think he loves that part of it. And then watching me make a fool of myself, I think that's part of it. No, I'm kidding. I'm totally joking. I mean, a little joking. I think it's just... I think with him, he likes games where you can have that interaction and you're just being social and having fun.

Kevin:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
Like one of his favorite games is Time's Up.

Daniel:
Yes, yes,

Mandi:
He

Kevin:
Hmm.

Mandi:
loves that game. So

Daniel:
yes,

Mandi:
I think anything

Daniel:
yes.

Mandi:
like that where you can just be silly and have fun, throw caution to the wind, if you will, I think that's probably the reason.

Daniel:
That's cool. Yeah, those are great games. Those

Kevin:
He

Daniel:
are great

Mandi:
Yeah.

Kevin:
did

Daniel:
games.

Kevin:
Cthulhu Death May Die, which is such a great game.

Daniel:
Mmm.

Mandi:
I haven't played it.

Kevin:
Oh, it's so good. It's

Mandi:
Is

Kevin:
so good.

Mandi:
it?

Kevin:
Yeah,

Mandi:
It looks good.

Kevin:
it's great.

Mandi:
Because he did that with Rob Davio, I believe. Did he not? I

Kevin:
I

Mandi:
think

Kevin:
think

Mandi:
so.

Kevin:
so, yeah.

Mandi:
Yeah, I think that was like a duo design and it looks super cool. I just haven't played it yet. Okay,

Kevin:
Yeah,

Mandi:
add

Kevin:
it's

Mandi:
it

Kevin:
a

Mandi:
to

Kevin:
lot

Mandi:
my

Kevin:
of

Mandi:
list.

Kevin:
fun.

Mandi:
Cool.

Kevin:
It's got a pulp fiction, sci-fi kind of element to it, where you're

Mandi:
Yeah.

Kevin:
kind of zany caricature people. And then as you go insane, you get even more powerful. So it's kind of like, we've got to kill some cultists before dinner. And then you go, and then like somebody's. getting nuts with their gun and then, it's like a little girl with a teddy bear and a gun. It's just, it's kind of, it's got a goofy, scary, like you were talking about horror, but you need a little humor. It's got

Mandi:
Yeah.

Kevin:
a bit of that that just makes it fun.

Mandi:
Okay, so this. Okay, I see this. I've been playing so I play video games. And I've been playing. Well, it's not been getting great reviews online, but Redfall. It's but that's what that reminds me of when

Kevin:
Huh.

Mandi:
you

Kevin:
Uh-huh.

Mandi:
just started

Daniel:
Okay,

Mandi:
talking about

Daniel:
okay.

Mandi:
that that kind of art and the way that it is. And I've been

Kevin:
sort

Mandi:
having

Kevin:
of pulp

Mandi:
a blast

Kevin:
heroes,

Mandi:
with Redfall.

Kevin:
yeah, they're kind

Mandi:
Yeah.

Kevin:
of almost like weird superhero type. Yeah,

Mandi:
Yes.

Kevin:
that's fun.

Mandi:
I love it. I'm gonna have to try it now. That sounds awesome.

Kevin:
Yeah, so if you go too crazy, you die, but if you get crazy enough, you get better skills to try to stop the monsters.

Mandi:
Okay,

Kevin:
So you're

Mandi:
cool.

Kevin:
kind of trying to keep it in a good zone there.

Mandi:
Is

Daniel:
I think.

Mandi:
it long, like a long gameplay?

Kevin:
I don't think so once you know it. I don't think so,

Mandi:
Okay.

Kevin:
but you do have to set up. It's got the Gloomhaven type thing where you've got the different pieces. So you've got to set up a map and it's co-op. So that's kind of nice.

Mandi:
Okay, that's cool. I like that.

Daniel:
Is it a chance the rapper that has a song that we all need to go a little crazy to make it? Is that something like there is either

Mandi:
I don't

Daniel:
of you

Mandi:
know

Daniel:
know that

Mandi:
this

Daniel:
song?

Mandi:
song, but

Daniel:
It's okay. Anyway, it's

Mandi:
can

Daniel:
fine.

Mandi:
you sing a little, Daniel?

Daniel:
Oh my goodness. Well,

Kevin:
You want

Mandi:
I'm

Kevin:
us to

Mandi:
just

Kevin:
give

Mandi:
kidding,

Kevin:
you a...

Mandi:
you totally don't.

Daniel:
I should tell her I think it's got some expletives in it too. But

Mandi:
Oh!

Daniel:
it's a

Mandi:
Got

Daniel:
good

Mandi:
it.

Daniel:
one. It is a good one. It's a good one. It's a good one.

Mandi:
I'll have to look it up now, I actually don't know it.

Daniel:
think it's okay yeah so yeah so

Kevin:
Do you want us to

Daniel:
so

Kevin:
give you a trap beat?

Daniel:
lay down a trap beat for me if you don't mind Kevin

Mandi:
Yes.

Daniel:
my name is Daniel and I'm here to say okay that's all I got that's all I got

Mandi:
So I got, okay,

Daniel:
but

Mandi:
that's

Kevin:
That's

Mandi:
okay, that

Kevin:
not

Mandi:
was excellent.

Kevin:
Chance the Rapper, Daniel.

Daniel:
no no it's

Kevin:
I'm

Daniel:
not

Kevin:
sorry.

Daniel:
it's

Mandi:
That

Daniel:
not

Mandi:
was Daniel the Rapper.

Daniel:
that's

Kevin:
That was

Daniel:
that's

Kevin:
Daniel

Daniel:
right that's

Kevin:
the Rapper.

Daniel:
right I do like Chance the Rapper a lot

Kevin:
Do you?

Daniel:
I really like I do

Kevin:
What do you like

Daniel:
I do

Kevin:
about them?

Mandi:
Interesting, yeah!

Daniel:
he's his well you know we we often talk about kind of religious spiritual stuff here on the

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
podcast He has really spiritually deep lyrics and just they're really profound. And not every song, not every song, of course,

Mandi:
Sure.

Daniel:
but some of his songs are just so, just wrestle so profoundly with spiritual matters and matters of humility and what does it mean to love my neighbor? And they're just really good. And I think this one, I think the song I'm thinking of, again, it's got expletives, so

Mandi:
Sure.

Daniel:
be warned listeners,

Mandi:
Be warned.

Daniel:
but I think it's a song about the day you got married. I think it's called The Greatest Day of My Life or something like that, but it's very sweet. But it has this recurring theme that, you know, we're not going to make it unless we get a little... kind of just and I've heard this another thing I think seal had a song about this too of the sub it's this way of kind of needing to go a little crazy to make it in the world and and I don't mean to use that term I know sometimes that term can be hurtful for people and I don't mean it in

Mandi:
Sure.

Daniel:
a hurtful way but

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
anyway that was a major tangent so thank

Mandi:
Nope,

Daniel:
you for

Mandi:
that's okay. That's what happens when you have someone with ADHD on the show. We go down rabbit holes and then we come back.

Kevin:
It was

Daniel:
That's

Kevin:
my major

Daniel:
all good.

Kevin:
in college was tangents actually.

Mandi:
Oh,

Kevin:
Yeah

Mandi:
perfect.

Daniel:
I like that about you.

Kevin:
Yeah

Daniel:
I like that about you. You're a tangent summa cum laude, I believe.

Kevin:
I mean, I didn't...

Daniel:
We went to college

Kevin:
Speaking

Daniel:
together,

Kevin:
of which...

Daniel:
Mandy, so yeah. Now you mention it. That's

Kevin:
Now that

Mandi:
Yeah,

Kevin:
you mention

Mandi:
exactly.

Kevin:
it,

Daniel:
right.

Kevin:
butterflies

Daniel:
Trigonometry.

Kevin:
do have wings, you're right!

Mandi:
Oh, actually, I don't think I finished answering your question.

Daniel:
Yes,

Mandi:
I apologize.

Daniel:
yes, I'm sorry. Let's go back to you

Mandi:
No,

Daniel:
guys.

Mandi:
that's me. I just kind of went off and I'm like, oh, yeah, wait now.

Daniel:
No.

Mandi:
Oh, before I get into the second part of your question about games maybe that are not maybe conducive to learning, there are some Access Plus games. So it's an initiative that's through Asmodea. I don't know if you've heard of it. And for some reason, the names of all of these games are not coming to me. I'm sorry. It's been a long week. I'm a little tired.

Daniel:
fun.

Mandi:
But do you know the game Spot It?

Daniel:
Yes, yes.

Mandi:
Okay, so they're taking games like Spot It, there's another trivia type one, it's escaping me right now, and they're revamping them in a way that are useful for people who are, maybe have dementia or things like

Daniel:
Hmm.

Mandi:
that, or people who have ADHD or people, you know, any kind of challenges, and they're making the game a bit more accessible. So

Daniel:
I love that.

Mandi:
these are newer games to the market, like... They've taken games that exist and just kind of revamped them in a different way, making cards bigger, more tactile and things like that. And I do find things like that should try and make their way to classrooms, hospitals as teaching tools or healing tools. So I just want to throw that out there, that access plus games. You should check those out there. I think there are only three right now, and I apologize. I can't think of all of them at the moment, but amazing. And I think that's good.

Daniel:
Is this like a specific line that Asmodeus is releasing called Access Plus Games? Sort of, is that how they're doing

Mandi:
Yeah,

Daniel:
it?

Mandi:
exactly.

Daniel:
Okay.

Mandi:
So they're basing it on games like, this is driving me wild that I can't think of the name of it, but it's Timeline. Spot It, Timeline.

Daniel:
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
There's a third one, and this is where my memory is going to escape me here. I apologize, but you

Daniel:
It's

Mandi:
can check

Daniel:
okay.

Mandi:
it out. But yeah, it's an initiative that I guess is funded through Asmodey for putting these games out in the market. And you'll see them more so in game stores. I was hoping to have a box with me. I think I packed it in my back shelf If you go to the game stores, they are pulling them in now so you'll be able to see them. But if you like, hey, I love timeline, but, you know, there's someone that you love that maybe is suffering from dementia or something along those lines. Hey, we can play this together because they've made it in a way that it's a bit more accessible.

Daniel:
Ah, that's fantastic. I love that.

Mandi:
Yeah, so it's a teaching and slash healing kind of a thing for games. So access plus check it out if you can't, if you have a chance to do that. And then, uh, to answer your final question, I'm

Daniel:
Yes.

Mandi:
actually not going to give any examples

Daniel:
Sure.

Mandi:
of specific games because I mean, there are just, we were talking about, was it Cthulhu must die? Sure. I'm sure we could find a lesson somewhere in there, but it might not be conducive to a classroom setting. Do you know

Daniel:
Sure,

Mandi:
what I mean?

Daniel:
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
So. once you start getting into games that have a specific theme or are too complex, I think those are games that maybe are not necessarily going to be something you want to use in the classroom as a tool. It shouldn't overpower the lesson. It's meant to complement the lesson, right?

Kevin:
Ooh,

Daniel:
Mm-mm.

Kevin:
that's a good

Mandi:
So

Kevin:
bit. Yeah, that's important.

Mandi:
yeah, that's kind of what you have to think about. So roll and writes are great, depending on what you're teaching. If it's just a specific concept, like I used roll and write games at my current job and how they have relationships with their employees. So then I would get them, I'd give them a rolling, right? Very simple rolling, right? Here you go, here's the game, here are the rules, which was like, they were like a page long. I'd like you to learn the game. I didn't say how they had to learn it. And I want you to play the game, and then I'm gonna come and you're gonna explain it to me and see if you got the rules right and score. And it was

Daniel:
Aww.

Mandi:
very interesting to see the different ways that they communicated. Some people would just take the rules and would just read it. And then the other person was kind of just like, hanging out, sitting there, versus other people would do the rules with someone together. Guess what? They were getting all the rules wrong. But that wasn't the point. The point was I just wanted to see how they related with that person, like they were doing it together. So it was wrong, but they were at least getting it wrong together.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin:
Hmm.

Mandi:
So

Daniel:
When you introduce games in a work setting like that, do you find that most people are open to that? Do you need to kind of do a little persuading, arm twisting at first

Mandi:
No,

Daniel:
or?

Mandi:
they're pretty good, actually.

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
This is why I said stick with simple. As soon as you start

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
getting complex, people turn right off. They're like, oh, this is too much for me. Something like a simple rolling right like that. They're fine. People are like, ooh, where do you get this game? I really like that.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
I'll also use RPGs. RPGs are great

Kevin:
Hmm.

Mandi:
for role playing. I'll use elements from RPGs, like a character creation. And I literally will call it that. You're creating a character. of yourself. And then here are these situations. What are the tools this character needs in order to combat these challenges? So,

Daniel:
My goodness.

Mandi:
yeah, RPGs are probably one of the best teaching tools you could use in a classroom for adults or for children.

Daniel:
That's really good. Yeah,

Mandi:
Hahaha!

Daniel:
so like,

Kevin:
and

Daniel:
hey,

Kevin:
going back.

Daniel:
make, yeah, go ahead, Kevin.

Mandi:
Yeah, sorry.

Kevin:
going back to when you use the game to see how people would relate and like you give them a game and figure this out, then how would you follow up with that?

Mandi:
Yeah, so then what we would do is after it was all done, so you know, some people feel like, oh my gosh, like I didn't get this at all, like we did terribly. Like they felt like they were being judged. And we talk about that. I'm like, you are the supervisor. So of course your employees are going to be judging you all the time. And maybe you have a different style than your employee, but it's up to you now to determine what style you have, what style your employees, and how you can work together. So for example, and we'll go through the different groups. When you were learning the game, what did you find was a struggle? And they would tell me, like, we don't know if we got the rules right. We don't know, you know what I mean? The other person's like, I felt like I wasn't part of the learning experience. The other person just read the rules and I wasn't part of it. And then when it was all said and done, I didn't feel like I was fully invested. So then I was like, okay, that's great. What did you like about it? And then they'll tell me some things they liked about it. It was fun. I'm glad that we got to do something together. Then we'll apply it to, in this case, it was, I think, performance management and having discussions with your employees about their objectives and if they're meeting these objectives. And then I'd be like, okay, so how can you relate it to that? In this circumstance, if it was about performance management, we would say, hmm, well, right now we're not really communicating with our employee, right? We're looking at it internally, like these are the things I have to do, but we haven't had that conversation with the employee to be like, oh, are you okay? What are you, you know? How can I help you? How can we help each other to make sure you're obtaining the end goal? I'm doing it all myself and expecting that the person will follow suit. And then they go, oh, okay,

Daniel:
Mmm.

Mandi:
I see the comparison you were trying to make there. Do you know what I mean? So

Kevin:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
it's almost like a lesson. So

Kevin:
Right,

Mandi:
you're

Kevin:
or almost

Mandi:
applying

Kevin:
like a

Mandi:
it.

Kevin:
mirror so they learn about themselves,

Mandi:
Yes,

Kevin:
yeah.

Mandi:
exactly. And then they don't feel as I don't want to say judge. That's not the right word. But then they're a little more they're not as reticent. to provide those kind of opinions about the challenges they had. Because if I just ask them straight up, what do you think are the issues or challenges you're having with performance with your employees, I would probably have a very different answer. That just kind of relaxes them a little bit, and then they can see the similarities between their communication style, their employees, and how they can bridge that gap. Yeah.

Kevin:
That's cool.

Daniel:
I love the direction this episode has taken that I, when I first initially think about games that teach, I think about like, oh, this is games that, this'll teach me about, I don't know,

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
crop rotation or something like that.

Mandi:
Sure. Ha ha.

Kevin:
Vikings!

Mandi:
Ha ha ha!

Daniel:
But you're, that's Viking, but you're really, but you're talking about games that teach critical skills for both self-reflection, self-awareness and interpersonal

Mandi:
Yes,

Daniel:
skills. And

Mandi:
correct.

Daniel:
boy, that's even more exciting than crop rotation. I mean, that's really important stuff.

Kevin:
I

Daniel:
I

Kevin:
don't

Daniel:
love

Kevin:
know.

Daniel:
that.

Mandi:
I don't know,

Daniel:
This

Mandi:
right?

Daniel:
is,

Kevin:
I don't know, you

Daniel:
this

Kevin:
gotta

Daniel:
is,

Kevin:
eat, bruh.

Daniel:
but this is, I mean, no offense to people who crop rotate. I mean, that's,

Mandi:
Yeah, no, absolutely.

Daniel:
I'm glad they do. I'm glad they do. But yeah, this is an episode that

Kevin:
You

Daniel:
I find personally, I'm looking forward to going back and listening to and reviewing, because there was a lot of really good gems in all of this. So yeah, thank you.

Mandi:
Like

Kevin:
Thank

Mandi:
you

Kevin:
you.

Mandi:
don't need to use games literally.

Daniel:
Right,

Mandi:
Like some

Daniel:
right.

Mandi:
people, and there are some games like Votes for Women. You could literally use this. Hey,

Kevin:
Right.

Mandi:
this is some history for you, period, end of story. I mean, there's a little bit of geography in there as well, but you get what I'm saying. This little 15 minute roll and write that Grail Games, thank you, was very kind to send me a few copies so I could use these in the classroom. Something like that. It's just, it's to teach some of the skills, you know, or lessons that we were just talking about.

Daniel:
May I ask what game it was? Is

Mandi:
Oh

Daniel:
that

Mandi:
yeah.

Daniel:
a, is that a, is that, or is that secret?

Mandi:
Oh my god. No,

Daniel:
It's

Mandi:
no, no,

Daniel:
okay.

Mandi:
no, no. You can totally

Daniel:
Do you

Mandi:
ask.

Daniel:
want a

Mandi:
It's

Daniel:
picture on the

Mandi:
um,

Daniel:
spot?

Mandi:
wow. My mem- no, my memory is horrible. It's the one where it has two dice and they have shapes on it like Xs, Os, and lines. Oh, crisscross.

Daniel:
Crisscross, neat, okay,

Mandi:
Crisscross.

Daniel:
cool, cool, cool.

Mandi:
Yeah,

Daniel:
Thank you,

Mandi:
it's great.

Daniel:
thank

Mandi:
And the

Daniel:
you.

Mandi:
rules are very simple. So if you were going to use this in a teaching environment, I'm sure you could find multiple ways to apply it. But the rules are very, very simple.

Daniel:
Nice, nice. Thank you.

Mandi:
Yeah, you're welcome.

Kevin:
Is there a game that you wish taught something but doesn't exist? So

Mandi:
So

Kevin:
let's

Mandi:
I

Kevin:
say

Mandi:
liked,

Kevin:
I'm going to

Mandi:
yeah.

Kevin:
give you $200,000. What would you do in terms of game development?

Mandi:
This is... Because I feel like the things that I would want a game to teach are things that people inherently should do already.

Daniel:
Hehehe

Mandi:
And not everybody does. I mean, you can't... I don't even know... I'm probably not gonna word this well, but you know, things like... And this is where the game itself, the theme of the game wouldn't teach it, but maybe how the game is presented. Like, just teaching things like respect and kindness and... appreciating differences and understanding differences. And I know those are very broad and abstract things, but I just feel like how can there be a way for a game to be like, hey, this is what I am, this is what you are, cool.

Daniel:
Hmm

Mandi:
Let's see how we can work together. And I know we can do that by using a game, but wouldn't it be amazing if we could have a game like, let's be clear, we're not going to cure everything in the world, we're not going to have world peace. I get that. but just in the state of things now, and I didn't mean to make this very heavy, but just the state

Daniel:
Oh,

Mandi:
of

Daniel:
that's

Mandi:
the world

Daniel:
great.

Mandi:
now, and I'm looking at you, America. Do you know

Kevin:
We're

Mandi:
what

Kevin:
trying,

Mandi:
I mean?

Kevin:
we're trying.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
It would be nice just to have a little bit of some decency and kindness, and I know that sounds really lame.

Daniel:
Go figure. No, no, that's, preach it, preach it. We're with you,

Mandi:
You know?

Daniel:
we're with you, yeah,

Mandi:
I just,

Daniel:
yeah.

Mandi:
yeah, it'd be nice. That's

Kevin:
Mm.

Mandi:
all.

Daniel:
Yeah. Yeah, a game that teaches an appreciation

Kevin:
Yeah,

Daniel:
for the

Kevin:
it

Daniel:
differences.

Kevin:
almost makes me think, have you heard about, with The Office and Michael Scott, there's this bit about that type of person that if you've never met that kind of person, you are that person? Does that make sense?

Mandi:
Yeah, no, I totally

Kevin:
Yeah,

Mandi:
get that, but I've not

Kevin:
so

Mandi:
heard

Kevin:
how

Mandi:
this.

Kevin:
do you create a game that helps Michael Scott understand what he's like? So you're like,

Mandi:
Yes.

Kevin:
oh my gosh, I

Mandi:
Yes.

Kevin:
actually, I'm kind of a jerk, I just never

Mandi:
I

Kevin:
realized

Mandi:
did.

Kevin:
it. I don't know. I don't know what that would be. I guess it'd have to be an asymmetrical game.

Mandi:
Yes, okay, right. Listen, this is a path. This is a path. I think that's, you know, bringing up some great ideas for a game. So I think so.

Daniel:
I buy it. That's a great game. So

Mandi:
Exactly.

Daniel:
we're talking again about games that like you were saying earlier, maybe like games that encourage or nurture kind of self-awareness, self-reflection. Huh.

Mandi:
I know it's an avenue people automatically they take games very literal literally and say okay we're going to play this game because the theme teaches us about xyz. Sometimes you just have to apply it in different ways. I mean most games you can find a way to apply something from that game to what you're teaching.

Daniel:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
Yeah

Daniel:
Mm-hmm.

Mandi:
just that might not be literal.

Daniel:
Right.

Kevin:
What about you Daniel? You got a thought about a dream game lesson?

Mandi:
Yeah!

Daniel:
Oh, a game that I wish would teach something that made us exist. You know, I mean, I guess I.

Mandi:
You gotta

Daniel:
And

Mandi:
go after me, so it's gotta be a good one.

Daniel:
that's hard to beat. No, it's hard to beat what Mandy said. I would have to say something like that. I find

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
the challenge, yeah, like a game that, yeah, I mean, a game that would encourage people to celebrate differences. And I mean, that would be wonderful. I think the challenge that I'm trying to think in my head is, I'm aware of, there are games that have come out. that, you know, like different faith groups have put out or different organizations, which is all wonderful, you know, which kind of geared toward cultivating, you know, compassion or understanding or things like that, which is wonderful. You know, they're not necessarily celebrated as necessarily like being like the most fun games or the most, you know, the most engaging games. And so I'm trying to think like, what would that be? What would that be? Like a game that like, everyone really wants to play and

Mandi:
I'm sorry.

Daniel:
it teaches compassion. You know,

Mandi:
Right.

Daniel:
and what would that look like? You know, it's like the hot compassion game. You know, like

Kevin:
Yeah.

Daniel:
that.

Mandi:
Yeah,

Daniel:
Oh.

Mandi:
no,

Kevin:
Cause if games

Mandi:
I

Kevin:
are

Mandi:
like

Kevin:
about

Mandi:
the name.

Kevin:
winning, it's hard to, how do you balance winning

Mandi:
Yeah.

Kevin:
with compassion for others? It's tricky.

Daniel:
Right, right.

Mandi:
It absolutely

Kevin:
Unless

Mandi:
it needs

Kevin:
it's

Mandi:
to be like an everyone wins and we all know how gamers love games that reward

Kevin:
Right,

Mandi:
ties

Kevin:
right.

Daniel:
Right, right, right, right, right.

Kevin:
That's right,

Mandi:
What

Kevin:
that's

Mandi:
about you,

Kevin:
right.

Mandi:
Kevin? Yeah, right, you caught that.

Daniel:
Yeah.

Kevin:
Yeah.

Mandi:
It's tricky.

Kevin:
I don't know. I've been waxing with Daniel about how much I like Cold Warly games and

Mandi:
Oh yeah.

Kevin:
cause so many of them are related to power and empire. And so he just keeps developing interesting things that make you rethink about how power shapes stuff. So I guess I would, yeah, I think about power dynamics and empowerment. And so along those lines.

Mandi:
Oh, that's right. He did, uh, did he do Pax Pemir?

Kevin:
He did Pax Pamir,

Mandi:
Yeah,

Kevin:
yeah.

Mandi:
yeah, it was a beautiful game.

Kevin:
It's a cool game. And so yeah, thinking about these tribes that get to. They see these empires as just foreign things that they ally with to... Yeah, it's more about them and their sense of success and empowerment, not about risk where you're going in from the other side and conquering.

Mandi:
Right, okay, now I can see that. See, and I feel yours would be a very good board game versus my idea, Daniel's idea would be a better RPG. I do,

Daniel:
It

Mandi:
I

Daniel:
does

Mandi:
really

Kevin:
Right,

Daniel:
sound

Mandi:
think

Daniel:
more like

Mandi:
it would

Daniel:
an

Kevin:
right.

Daniel:
RPG.

Mandi:
be,

Daniel:
Yeah,

Kevin:
Well,

Daniel:
you're right.

Kevin:
I'm just

Daniel:
All

Kevin:
saying

Mandi:
yeah.

Daniel:
right.

Kevin:
that I like a certain type of game. I really dodged the question because I didn't come up with anything besides what I already

Mandi:
Kevin,

Kevin:
like. But that's,

Mandi:
I was helping you out,

Kevin:
I know,

Mandi:
Kevin,

Kevin:
I appreciate

Mandi:
just

Daniel:
Hehehehe

Mandi:
go with

Kevin:
it, but

Mandi:
it.

Kevin:
I still feel like a wuss. But yeah, yeah, power is an interesting thing and it's subtle.

Mandi:
Yeah,

Kevin:
So.

Mandi:
absolutely.

Daniel:
So a final off topic question. So, Mandy, would you have any advice for aspiring board game podcasters? I just know a guy.

Mandi:
Hahaha! To you now!

Daniel:
But yeah, any advice for aspiring board game podcasters?

Mandi:
Yes, oh my goodness. So

Daniel:
What has your experience taught you about

Mandi:
the

Daniel:
that?

Mandi:
first

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
first time you delve into it, it's gonna be rough. If you want some proof, go listen to my early Dice Tower episodes with Suzanne. It was

Daniel:
Hmm.

Mandi:
rough, but guess what? You learned from those experiences. Be yourself. There are gonna be so many people that tell you maybe you're not good enough or, you know, maybe they don't like what you're doing. Doesn't matter. At the end of the day, do it because you want to do it. I podcast and I'm in the gaming community because I want to make things. better, comfortable for everybody. That's why

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
I do it. People don't like that. Well, that's that's their problem. So make sure you do it for you. At the end of the day, if you have something to say, say it, you know what I mean? And if that means you're doing it through a podcast, do that if you just want to do it. Because hey, I love games, it'll think it'd be fun. Do that. There's always going to be an audience or someone that enjoys what you're doing. And it brings some happiness into their life. Do you need the fanciest equipment? No, you start off with the basics and, you know, do it from the heart. Now I will Be honest, people do get a little fussy about their audio. So maybe spend a little bit on the microphone.

Daniel:
Hehehehe

Mandi:
Just just say it video. They're a little more forgiving. Um, but, um, yeah, do it from the heart, be you. And I know that sounds super cliche, but if you look at them from now, when I started, sorry, from when I started to now, an exact same person,

Daniel:
Mm.

Mandi:
I'm, I'm, I'm I'm very opinionated that spoken about certain things that I I have a very high level of certain standard of ethics that I refuse

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
to back down from even if someone doesn't agree with me. So

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
don't lose that.

Daniel:
Great advice, great advice.

Mandi:
Yeah.

Daniel:
Thank you

Kevin:
Yeah,

Daniel:
very

Kevin:
I think

Daniel:
much.

Kevin:
that's great. And I'll piggyback that. I think people will always value authenticity. So if you're not

Mandi:
Absolutely.

Kevin:
yourself, they'll figure it out. And we were talking about middle schoolers, middle schoolers are the age where they start to,

Mandi:
Yeah.

Kevin:
you know, they

Mandi:
Mm-hmm.

Kevin:
are they they know you're they're kind of BS in them. And there's just

Mandi:
Yes,

Kevin:
no point.

Mandi:
they do.

Kevin:
Yeah.

Mandi:
They do.

Kevin:
Yeah.

Mandi:
My favorite grade, by the way, to teach, grade sevens and eights.

Kevin:
Really?

Daniel:
Hmm.

Kevin:
Why? Why is that?

Mandi:
Because you can be a little sassy. Ha ha

Kevin:
What?

Mandi:
ha! And they appreciate the humor.

Daniel:
Younger than that, the sassiness goes over their heads. Older

Kevin:
Yeah.

Mandi:
Yeah,

Daniel:
than

Mandi:
they

Daniel:
that,

Mandi:
don't...

Daniel:
they get upset. But

Mandi:
Then

Daniel:
right

Mandi:
they get

Daniel:
there,

Mandi:
mad,

Daniel:
it's

Mandi:
exactly.

Daniel:
like, right, right,

Mandi:
So

Daniel:
right, right.

Mandi:
it's good, we're good. And I'm still kind of cool there, so. Ha

Kevin:
Yes,

Mandi:
ha ha ha.

Kevin:
yes.

Daniel:
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin:
Yep, you start aging out once you hit high school. Your, in the sense that they're gonna see you as aliens because you're just, you're not their age, right?

Mandi:
Oh no, you're

Kevin:
Yeah.

Mandi:
old. Like when I started, you know, I was telling,

Kevin:
Yeah.

Mandi:
uh, who was it? I was talking to my nephew and you know, he's in that age and some of the kids were like, Oh, I'm so excited. You know, Diablo four is coming up. I'm taking off the Friday to play the whole day, you know, with my brother. And I'm like, you, you play Diablo? Like how old are you? I was like, wow,

Kevin:
Yeah, yeah.

Mandi:
that's awful. So yeah,

Daniel:
Right,

Mandi:
I passed

Daniel:
right.

Mandi:
the coolness at that point. They don't, they don't think I'm cool.

Kevin:
Uh-uh, uh-uh, we're like

Daniel:
That window

Kevin:
alien

Daniel:
closes

Kevin:
creatures.

Daniel:
quickly.

Kevin:
Yeah.

Mandi:
It certainly

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
does.

Daniel:
At least it has

Kevin:
That's

Daniel:
in my

Kevin:
awesome.

Daniel:
life. Yeah.

Mandi:
Right?

Kevin:
Well, Mandy,

Daniel:
Which

Kevin:
how

Daniel:
then

Kevin:
can

Daniel:
goes

Kevin:
people

Daniel:
back.

Kevin:
find you?

Daniel:
Yeah.

Kevin:
How

Daniel:
Go

Kevin:
can

Daniel:
ahead,

Kevin:
people

Daniel:
Kevin.

Kevin:
find you?

Mandi:
Yeah. Oh my goodness. All the places. Well, Suzanne laughs at me because I sound like an old person in quotes here because I say the socials.

Kevin:
Right,

Mandi:
So you can find

Kevin:
right.

Mandi:
us on the Twitch and the YouTube at Salt and Sass Games. You can also find us on Twitter at Salt and Sass Games. And if you just want to say, hey, Mandy, we want to come talk to you. You can find me on Blue Sky, Instagram and Twitter. at 613 Mandy bonus points if you know what the 613 stands for.

Daniel:
Oh my goodness.

Mandi:
I'll leave it out there so people can

Kevin:
Give me

Mandi:
comment,

Kevin:
a hint.

Mandi:
you know,

Kevin:
Oh,

Daniel:
Okay,

Kevin:
you

Mandi:
if

Kevin:
don't

Mandi:
they

Kevin:
want

Daniel:
okay.

Kevin:
to

Mandi:
know.

Kevin:
answer now?

Mandi:
I could

Kevin:
Or you want

Mandi:
so

Kevin:
to leave it? We'll leave it out there.

Daniel:
We'll

Mandi:
yeah,

Daniel:
leave

Mandi:
leave

Daniel:
it out

Mandi:
it out

Daniel:
there.

Mandi:
there. Let's let people throw it in the comments or something and see if anyone

Kevin:
I'm gonna

Mandi:
guesses.

Kevin:
use chat GPT.

Daniel:
Oh yeah, it's a good idea!

Mandi:
OOOOH, good.

Kevin:
613 God I'm

Daniel:
I think

Kevin:
thinking

Daniel:
it's

Kevin:
about

Daniel:
a code

Kevin:
it.

Daniel:
about a new board game. Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Mandi:
I wish it that works. It was that exciting.

Kevin:
It's the cell phone number for Justin Trudeau or mobile. It might become a mobile. It's

Mandi:
You're close...ish.

Daniel:
I've got Justin on speed dial. Okay, okay, okay.

Kevin:
Justin. He just answers his phone.

Daniel:
That's right. Justin here, Mandy, how are you?

Kevin:
Mandy,

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
Exactly,

Daniel:
that's good.

Mandi:
pardon.

Kevin:
how's

Daniel:
That's

Kevin:
the gaming

Daniel:
great.

Kevin:
going? I bet he'd be fun at more games. You know he would be. And so would Joe Biden. Joe Biden would be like, oh, let's play again.

Mandi:
I mean, I've met, I actually, funny story, I know we're ending soon, but I met, because I used to work at National Defense,

Kevin:
Oh

Daniel:
Hmm

Kevin:
wow.

Mandi:
and that's where I met the Prime Minister. He was there and it was just, he

Daniel:
Peely.

Mandi:
just seems, and he was a teacher actually before he was Prime Minister. So

Daniel:
Yeah.

Mandi:
you could definitely see the vibe of him, definitely a board gamer. And I didn't get to meet Joe Biden. I was staying at the same hotel and oh my goodness, that was an experience.

Daniel:
Wow,

Mandi:
FYI.

Daniel:
I bet.

Mandi:
I was so scared, I felt like I couldn't look anywhere because all of the secret services were like, we need to check your bags. And I'm like, oh my gosh, why? And they're like, and then we found out that the president was there. So I met him in spirit.

Daniel:
Wow, you encountered his security people.

Mandi:
Exactly.

Daniel:
That's

Mandi:
So

Daniel:
right.

Mandi:
I feel like he could be cool.

Daniel:
You guys could be best buds. Yeah, gaming buds. That's great. We need to do that for like a Patreon stretch goal, Kevin, as we could like play games with Trudeau and Biden. How about that?

Kevin:
but

Mandi:
Yeah?

Kevin:
could,

Daniel:
We could do, we

Kevin:
or their Secret Service detail.

Daniel:
could. Order

Mandi:
Sure,

Daniel:
Secret Service

Mandi:
I think

Daniel:
to detail.

Mandi:
that could work

Daniel:
We'll

Mandi:
too.

Daniel:
bring out Anomia and Cthulhu, Death May Die. And

Mandi:
Yeah,

Daniel:
then

Mandi:
exactly.

Daniel:
we'll

Mandi:
Absolutely. Perfect

Daniel:
just...

Mandi:
choices.

Kevin:
the earpiece comes out and they start rolling dice yeah

Daniel:
That's right, that's right, that's right. Well.

Kevin:
Mmm. Well, thank you so much. It's been great. I

Daniel:
Yeah,

Mandi:
Yeah, thank

Daniel:
we

Kevin:
so

Daniel:
re-

Mandi:
you

Kevin:
appreciate

Mandi:
for having me.

Kevin:
your

Mandi:
It's

Kevin:
time

Mandi:
been a pleasure and delight.

Kevin:
Yep

Mandi:
And yeah, thank you so much.

Kevin:
so

Daniel:
Yeah.

Kevin:
Mandy Hutchinson salt and sass and games and thank you and next episode Alice Connor

Daniel:
Yeah, Reverend Alice Connor is going to be our guest next episode. She is a published author. She's also an Episcopal priest and she writes for the Daily Worker Placement website and she has a running... series of articles on the daily worker placement called Playing at Religion, in which she writes about games about religion, games about religious themes. And so she's going to be on next episode to talk about her perspective on games about religion, and we're looking forward to getting to chat with her.

Kevin:
awesome. I'll see you then. Thank you so much, Mandy. Bye-bye.

Daniel:
Thanks

Mandi:
Thank

Daniel:
Mandy,

Mandi:
you.

Daniel:
thanks everybody

Mandi:
Bye.

Daniel:
for listening, bye bye.